MORENA. GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED. TODAY ` THE GOVERNMENT'S INTRODUCED A NEW DIGITAL CURRICULUM SO THAT FROM YEAR ONE, KIDS WILL BE TAUGHT TECHNOLOGY IN OUR SCHOOLS. BUT WITH NEW ZEALAND STUDENTS LAGGING BEHIND IN MATHS, IS IT TIME TO GET BACK TO BASICS? POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN IS HERE WITH EDUCATION MINISTER NIKKI KAYE. WHAT IS HER VISION FOR OUR SCHOOLS? THEN RYAN BOSWELL HAS AN EXCLUSIVE STORY FOR US ` A NEW TOOL THAT TELLS DRUG USERS WHAT'S REALLY IN THEIR PILL OR POWDER. PROBLEM IS... IT'S ILLEGAL. THERE'S ALL THESE NEW CHEMICALS OUT THERE, AND PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THOSE, AND WHAT WE'RE WANTING TO LOOK AT IS HOW CAN WE PREVENT THAT HAPPENING IN NEW ZEALAND. ASSOCIATE HEALTH MINISTER PETER DUNNE IS HERE. DOES HE APPROVE OF WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND IS IT TIME TO CHANGE THE LAW? AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY; HEATHER ROY, FORMER ACT MP, NOW A COMPANY DIRECTOR AND CHAIR OF LOBBY GROUP MEDICINES NEW ZEALAND. AND WELCOME TO EFESO COLLINS, PACIFIC COMMUNITY LEADER, AUCKLAND CITY COUNCILLOR AND LABOUR MEMBER. WE'LL HEAR FROM YOU ALL SHORTLY. BUT FIRST, HERE'S CORIN. THANKS, GREG. AND GOOD MORNING TO EDUCATION MINISTER NIKKI KAYE. Big changes this week in terms of the curriculum for our kids. Bringing in the idea of coding, the ideas around digital and computational thinking. What is it that you are imagining student led advice will say in 10 years time will be able to do with this change. They will be at the forefront of creating solutions, so they will be directing the technology. And we currently have a situation where many young people and our schools are using technology but they are not at the forefront of designing that. Some of them are coding. You have Francis Valentine, intensive mind lab. The scale of what we need to do is very significant. Why do we need more kids to learn the stuff? Because of you look at what the predictions are in terms of whether jobs will be, there is an estimate that 40% of jobs within 10 to 15 years may be automated. So there is a concept that we want young people not just using the technology but being able to create the latest technology is actually crucial. Why we trying to predict the future? We don't have any idea what is going to be the technology in 10 or 20 years time. Why do we not stick to the core subjects and trustthat the kids will be fine? We would be negligent. It is the response ability of the Ministry of education to do that. But you can't possibly know. We are not the only country to be moving in this area. It is very clear there is quite a common argument around what are basic 21st century skills. The IT industry is screaming out for graduates. I would argue that nowadays, most kids have already sussed out how to use electronic devices before they've even got to school. They may know how to use them but they aren't necessarily the ones who are creating the latest game that is going to affect mathematics. They not at the forefront of creating the latest robot that will help out in science and medicine. Those kids will find that pathway anyway. You are just trying to get more kids to do that? we believe that every young person should understand the basics of computational thinking. What is computational thinking? It is being able to instruct new technology and solve problems. Whether it is designing a new piece of technology or debugging it, there are some basic principles that are set out in the curriculum. A lot of people have been involved in this. It is quite world leading that we have made it very flexible. Whether it's artificial intelligence. I think it is important that young people realise... If you look at the changes that have happened in just 20 years, Young people need to be able to navigate that and it is not just the jobs changing. I've got three boys and they love their screens. On the one hand, they can see the advantages of this as parents. They also anxious because kids spend time so much time on screens. They are going to be even more normalised. Is there not a danger you will cut out more important part of the learning? There is a good and bad amount of time online. It is a battle for parents though. What do we do? We recently released screen guidelines in terms of recreational time should be around two hours. Technology is moving and a sense that we may not` two hours a day? That is recreational screen time. Most teachers that I talked to actually our understanding we have videoconferencing and classrooms now. There will be a shift in technology to voice. It is not just about the screen. Every child from high school has a screen? Or is required to pretty much? The more that we can do to educate young people but also our teachers and our parents about what is a good amount of time online is a good thing. I have also asked the chief science advisers to see what the impact of technology is on other skills. What goes from the curriculum to make way for this? There will be lots of discussions about the curriculum in the future. The other thing that we can do to enable teachers to have the time to be able to deliver this as to reduce their workload in areas like Administration. I launch the project this week alongside the curriculum changes to say what can we do to reduce the administration. I put $2.9 million into this project to get NCEA online. So teachers will get plenty of support, maybe some efficiency improvements, but what goes out of the curriculum? We will continue to review it, but you either take an approach of something goes out, or you move in a direction of what could we possibly do... you're going to squeeze it in? It's not just separate. If you think about young people learning numeracy and literacy, it helps when their learning science. Parents watching this will be worried ` Will this be less English or less history or less other subjects? Can you give that guarantee? I can give the guarantee that we will make sure we invest more in those areas. That's why we announced an additional $24 million. We could have just re-prioritised numeracy and literacy professional development. We use an extra 24 million to make sure we are absolutely continuing to lift achievement. Do we have the maths skills in this country to be world leaders in technology? Our international rankings are not that great. We have to continue to do more in maths. We have a number of academics assisting with the design of the professional development. Through the funding review, we are looking at how we can help the most disadvantaged. If you look at the NZ initiative's findings, the way we have been teaching mathematics is arguably not making aa big difference. What is professional development meaning? Look at the specific competencies are written maths. We have increased salaries about 80%. *18% you have to do a thing is in the system to improve achievement. It's the funding review. Also working very carefully around` the OECD this month. It said our maths is poor and that it is a barrier to better performance in science and engineering. Bill English mentioned that in his speech at the weekend that mass is a priority. What will you be doing? It is about looking younger, so we know that year eight, there is a slip in mathematics. In terms of mathematics, it's about putting more professional development and looking at the granular detail of those children. We are putting interventions and to help them. The NZ initiative basically said we moved away from rote learning and have to move back to it. There will be a conversations in terms of how we left achievement. We have significant results around Maori and Pacific achievement. We put the resource and the interventions there. The NZ heralded an interesting article last year about NCEA and those results. You do have some good results there in terms of disadvantaged groups and NCEA. The point that the NZ Herald made that a lot of those are going into vocational subjects and we've been pushed harder and to maths and those sorts of subjects. Does that concern you? Under the previous government, thousands more Maori and Pacific young people left without basic NCEA. We can be very proud that they are leaving with qualifications. Do we want to make sure they have multiple pathways? Yes we do. If you look at the digital fluency package this week, we have an opportunity to ensure that young Maori and Pacific students have much more diverse pathways, It's a poverty issue, isn't it? They won't have the same devices and they won't have access to Wi-Fi at home, no access to printers. That will just increase the divide? We have a moral responsibility to continue to invest in those young people. $6 million this week focused on those students who are particularly disadvantaged. People like Pat Snedden have shown that the right investments around connectivity and young people, these young Maori and Pacific and is students can do really well. Way ahead of their peers actually. The online learning ` are you committed to this idea that we let children do their entire school career online at home? We passed enabling legislation for online learning providers. I said we have to consult with the sector around that. I've also said that I see it more being used around particular subject areas where schools haven't had access. A school in Invercargill where young people might want to learn Mandarin. It hasn't worked very well overseas has it? In some countries, because it hasn't had the right regulatory framework. The whole conversation around whether they will be registered teachers and what support will be around that, how much online and how much Face Time, can you give an assurance that this won't be a dumping ground for difficult students but with behavioural issues that schools do not want to deal with ? What we have learnt with all of the special educational learning support changes that we need to give those young people more support than ever before, and that will be about having a other things such as behavioural support and other interventions . A couple of questions that came through to us , one of them is a concern about pay rates for support staff and their money coming from a discretionary fund that the school has . Is it just not enough money for support staff and not enough support for them in terms of the conditions ? There are couple of things . The support workers and support staff ` they are different things. We announced a 1.3% increase in terms of operational grants which is there to assist any pay increases. The schools have to meet the pay rises from the 1.3%? We have increased operational grants by about 16%. The CPI has been 11%. We do pay negotiations every couple of years. They're not paying megabucks though? No. And there are pay equity claims which are being discussed, but I can't go into it because a formal process at around that. Collective-bargaining processes to increase those wages, but there is conversation... Do they need to be paid more? We are paying the more. I think the pay equity is an important piece of work. One more question from Facebook, and this is around the body that registers the teachers. Chris Hipkins has a private members bill which allows teachers to elect members to that board. Would you consider supporting at? I have said that we wouldn't. Yesterday I confirmed that the government is going to transfer $200 million to this body. So it is different to other professional bodies. It is going to have responsibly for a large amount of taxpayer funds. And teachers cannot be trusted to be on the board? There needs to be the ability to have some independent people. Of easily there is a process that has previously occurred that covered representatives in terms of those interviews. I am keen to discuss with unions how we discuss that process? What's wrong with having teachers on a port of insight? The question is how they are appointed. I am keen to continue discussions with the unions, but I would say that this entity is independent, from statutory perspective, but as containing a lot of taxpayer funds and that's what people have agreed. I would say that the history... The whole reason we changed it from its existing structure to the education Council was there wasn't great things occurring there. The decile system changes ` we've talked about this a lot on Q&A ` are you brave enough to announce these before the election, because they will be controversial. Some schools will miss out on funding. It depends a you design the system. I expect to give an update before the election, but I'm not a fan of the decile system. I don't like the fact that schools are labelled as a result of parents and come. *income I've met many young people that feel they are not good enough as a result of the decile rating. I cannot get ahead of cabinet. I will give an update on the funding review. If at all possible, if I can work away through to find something that is suitable to replace it, then I will do that. Thank you for your time. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQandA. YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ. OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF. EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. WE'LL KEEP TALKING ABOUT SCHOOLS, TEACHERS AND ENSURING OUR STUDENTS ARE READY FOR THE WORKPLACE OF THE FUTURE. OUR PANEL'S HERE AFTER THE BREAK. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY; HEATHER ROY, FORMER ACT MP AND NOW A COMPANY DIRECTOR AND CHAIR OF LOBBY GROUP MEDICINES NEW ZEALAND; AND EFESO COLLINS, PACIFIC COMMUNITY LEADER, AUCKLAND CITY COUNCILLOR AND LABOUR MEMBER. Raymond, education is not an easy gig. How did she do? It is good to see Nikki Kaye back in good health. She has been a quiet achiever within the parliament and government. She's had a number of portfolios that she's handled extremely well. Education is a devilishly difficult portfolio to have. It is good to see someone with fresh perspective coming in to look at digital literacy. This is a broad subject. It's now in the curriculum. Heather, are we going to far? I think minister KAye is starting to stamp her authority on this and it is great to see. Is this curriculum preparing our children in the future? She made that point, but it is also fine balance of loading too much on the curriculum. There's only a certain amount of time that people have the children. If we can use this new digital strategy to also enhance the learning objectives and the basics of the maths, the science skills that children need. That would be great. I think that is what she is trying to achieve. I spent a lot of time saying the most important part of the health equation is making sure we have the right people teaching the children. Also upskilling the teachers. This digital strategy is going to be key. That is going to come down to money and a lot of older teachers wanting to get on board. You need a range of teachers to. Not all children are the same. She has allocated a lot of money towards upskilling the teachers who needed. Don't forget the new teachers coming in have also grown up in the digital world. So I think we should it be too harsh about the old teachers who don't want to go there. Let's look at the things positively and say how can we get the best from the huge range of skill sets that already exist within the teaching pull and make them even better? Efeso, the Pacifica kids who don't have the money or the Internet, what happens to them? It is a major concern. The key issue here is poverty. A lot of the young people who are doing well, major discrepancies between the kids who are doing okay and the kids were from low social economic backgrounds. The difference is core generic. It's a whole lot of nothing. What we need his core courses like science and maths. I was impressed with the minister. I think we are stuck in thinking we might need to read more of Macbeth than Shakespeare. We have to reimagine a system that has been great for some years, but it really isn't working. Let's be clear, it's poverty that is the issue. 295,000 children who are in poverty. That came from the children's Commissioner's report. We have to address that in order for all our kids to be able to succeed. How do you do that through education? I assume it's going to be money. Let's look at the charter school. I have a slightly different view from the Labour Party about charter schools. Some of our charter schools are feeding their kids and giving them breakfasts and lunches. If the parents can step back financially from the problems, then I think we got a system here that we can build on. My challenges rather than throw that kind of resources on the charter school, let's concentrate on the compulsory education. I used to be a PLD facilitator in University of Auckland. We were getting children to talk about their cultural interactions. There is a 30% variance between teachers and their ability to raise kids indication. We can do all this. But we need a fresh approach to the discussion rather than become binary and say this is what national is doing and this is what labor is doing. I absolutely agree with he has just said. They look at the population and ask what is the need a let us address that. Let's do something a bit differently. That flexibility is key. The screen time that Corin talked about with his boys, that has got to be our concern no matter which direction we take. A lot of viewers feel alienated by this kind of discussion. It does seem very different kind of learning. But it has to be mandatory for years 1 to 10. But very young children are getting increasingly proficient in their use of new technology my granddaughter is 14 months old, she hasn't learned to walk, but she can turn on her mother's iPhone. This is something you. But I would like to reinforce a couple of things that have been said. First of all, disadvantage groups, there has to be ways to ensure that not just the school but also at home, children have access to the sort of technology they need. Because there are many large families where they will have at most one computer in the house, and they may not have access to the Internet. And it really begins to show later on that they become evermore disadvantage. On that point, I had reason to visit a low decile school in Papatoetoe . They have tons of iPads in school but when they go home, then what? One of the things were doing is we are leaning on the Wi-Fi in the library. So kids hang around in the library access the Internet. So the question is how do we get more Wi-Fi? We have to be really clear that our parents don't have enough to take on. Poverty is again the issue. One of the big issues is opportunities for Pacific families is transients and truancy. A lot of kids have nowhere to stay. They don't have anywhere. So some kids have been to five or four schools in one year. They have to keep moving. What we have to say is how do we get our young people stable? So that they're not moving from school to school and the teachers are in getting your kids or losing kids to different parts of the city in times when they can really achieve? The online learning. I sort straightaway a red flag. What is your thought on that? We cannot afford to do that. There is a huge utility for that but it has to be used in the right way. When I was associate minister I was responsible for special education and a lot of children were bundled into that bucket too. There is a lot of work to do. There has to be thinking within the education ministry about how we tackle these kids on either end. It's the children on either and that we need to focus on. The children in the middle do well. I suspect a lot of the thinking behind the announcement this week is about engaging children. If we can bring these techniques and tools in to help the children who are struggling. It sounds like there will be some talk about rejecting the decile system. Was that surprising? It does, indeed. A lot of things are tied with decile ratings. It will be a big move by the government if they decide to do that. I would like to make a comment about preparing maths and science teachers. This was raised by Corrine and referred to by the minister. More needs to be done to incentivize young graduates to go into teaching, particularly girls who are strong in maths and sciences. IN A CONTROVERSIAL MOVE, THE NEW ZEALAND DRUG FOUNDATION HAS CHOSEN TO DELIBERATELY BREAK THE LAW TO ALLOW DRUG USERS TO GET HIGH SAFELY. THE RESEARCH AND LOBBY GROUP HAS TEAMED UP WITH A WOMAN CALLED WENDY ALLISON TO OFFER A NEW DRUG-TESTING SERVICE TO MUSIC FESTIVAL GOERS WHO ARE USING ILLEGAL DRUGS. THEY KNOW IT'S A CRIME, BUT THEY SAY IT'S A VITAL SERVICE TO PREVENT HARM. RYAN BOSWELL HAS THE STORY. WHAT'S UP, GUYS? HOW YOU DOING? IT'S SUMMER 2017 AND WELLINGTON'S WATERFRONT IS BUZZING. THE HOMEGROWN FESTIVAL HAS BEEN HITTING THE RIGHT NOTES NOW FOR A DECADE, WITH THOUSANDS TURNING OUT EACH YEAR FOR THE BEST IN LIVE KIWI MUSIC. LET ME SEE THOSE HANDS IN THE AIR. HEY! IT'S AN EXPERIENCE FEW WOULD FORGET, BUT ONE THAT COULD PROVE DEADLY. (SIREN WAILS) CLASS A DRUGS ARE RIFE AT FESTIVALS AND CAN LEAVE USERS NEEDING MEDICAL HELP. THE THING THAT THEY OFTEN TELL THE NURSES WHEN THEY PRESENT IS THAT THEY'RE FEELING A CONDITION KNOWN AS PALPITATIONS WHERE THEIR HEART SEEMS TO BE BEATING EITHER IRREGULARLY OR TOO FAST. DR PAUL QUIGLEY WAS WORKING THAT NIGHT AT WELLINGTON HOSPITAL'S EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT. HE'S TREATED HUNDREDS WHO HAVE OVERINDULGED. WE DID HAVE ONE PATIENT PRESENT WITH A HIGH TEMPERATURE, AND THAT IS REALLY CONCERNING COS THAT'S A DRUG REACTION KNOWN AS HYPERTHERMIC DRUG REACTIONS. IT'S WHERE THE BODY'S INTERNAL REGULATOR TURNS UP AND THEIR TEMPERATURE RISES AND RISES. THAT'S THE ONE THAT ENDS UP CAUSING SOME KIDNEY AND LIVER DAMAGE AND IT HAS BEEN KNOWN TO CAUSE PEOPLE TO EVEN NEED INTENSIVE CARE. THE PATIENT THOUGHT THEY'D TAKEN MDMA OR ECSTASY, A POPULAR DRUG OF CHOICE ON THE PARTY SCENE. DR QUIGLEY SAYS IT WAS QUITE CLEARLY SOMETHING ELSE. HE STILL DOESN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT. IF YOU LOOK AT THE GROUP THAT WE HAD COMING IN FROM HOMEGROWN, THEY'RE NOT WHAT YOU WOULD CALL A HARDENED DRUG USER. WENDY ALLISON HAS BEEN GOING TO FESTIVALS FOR THREE YEARS NOW, GIVING PEOPLE THE CHANCE TO TEST THEIR RECREATIONAL DRUGS BEFORE THEY TAKE THEM TO SEE WHAT THE MAIN INGREDIENT IS. THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH AN MDMA REACTION. SO HOW ACCURATE IS THIS? THESE REAGENTS HAVE ONE FAIRLY LARGE LIMITATION THESE REAGENTS HAVE ONE FAIRLY LARGE LIMITATION IN THAT THEY ONLY DETECT THE PRESENCE OF A SUBSTANCE, AND AS YOU CAN SEE WATCHING A COLOUR CHANGE LIKE THAT, IF THERE'S ANYTHING ELSE IN THERE, THE REACTION WILL BE MASKED BY THE VERY QUICK CHANGE TO BLACK THAT THE MDMA SHOWS, SO THERE'S A CHANCE THAT THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE IN THAT THAT THIS WON'T DETECT. THAT 'SOMETHING ELSE' COULD BE DANGEROUS, SO THIS YEAR WENDY TEAMED UP WITH THE NEW ZEALAND DRUG FOUNDATION, WHO HAVE PURCHASED THIS RADICAL NEW MACHINE. THIS IS A FOURIER TRANSFORM INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY SPECTROMETER. UNLIKE TRADITIONAL TESTING, IT PROVIDES A BREAKDOWN OF WHAT'S IN A TAB, PILL OR POWDER. IT'S BEEN ON THE ROAD OVER SUMMER AT FESTIVALS GATHERING DATA. THE DRUG FOUNDATION'S EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR ROSS BELL ` WHAT WE'VE SEEN AROUND THE WORLD IS THAT PEOPLE ARE DYING. WHAT WE'VE SEEN AROUND THE WORLD IS THAT PEOPLE ARE DYING. THERE'S ALL THESE NEW CHEMICALS OUT THERE AND PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THOSE, AND WHAT WE'RE WANTING TO LOOK AT IS HOW WE CAN PREVENT THAT HAPPENING IN NEW ZEALAND. WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS ILLEGAL. THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND YOU'RE ENABLING THEM TO DO THAT. (EXHALES) OUR STARTING POINT IS, 'CAN WE KEEP PEOPLE SAFE?' WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO'VE PURCHASED DRUGS ALREADY, WHO WILL HAVE USED THESE DRUGS ANYWAY, WHO HAVE MADE THAT CHOICE, AND WE'RE ANOTHER STEP IN THAT TO TRY TO KEEP THEM SAFE. IT'S NOT CONDONING DRUG USE. IT'S ACCEPTING THE REALITY. WE WON'T STICK OUR HEAD IN THE SAND ON NEW ZEALAND'S DRUG PROBLEM. THIS WORKING PROFESSIONAL IS A REGULAR DRUG USER. MDMA IS HIS DRUG OF CHOICE, BUT IN THE PAST IT'S LEFT HIM IN STRIFE. I'VE TAKEN IT AND IT HASN'T BEEN MDMA AND THAT'S BEEN REALLY CLEAR, AND YOU CAN TELL BECAUSE YOU GET REALLY SWEATY AND FEEL AWFUL AND YOUR HEART RACES. SO WE TESTED HIS LATEST STASH TO SEE WHAT'S IN IT. AS YOU CAN SEE HERE WE'VE GOT CRYSTAL MDMA AS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT COMPOUND, BUT THE PINK AND GREEN LINES ON THE SPECTRUM ALSO SHOW THAT WE HAVE SOME OTHER SUBSTANCES HERE. THAT SUBSTANCE IS AN ANTI-PSYCHOTIC. IN FACT, 11% OF THE DRUGS TESTED WERE WHAT THEY SAID BUT CONTAINED AT LEAST ONE OTHER SUBSTANCE, WHILE 20% OF THE DRUGS ENDED UP BEING SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. AND IT'S MADE OUR DRUG USER THINK TWICE. I'LL PROBABLY CHUCK IT OUT AND FEEL SLIGHTLY OUT OF POCKET AND SLIGHTLY ANNOYED. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY OTHER INTERVENTION WHERE SOMEONE COMES TO YOU WITH THE FULL INTENTION OF TAKING AN ILLICIT SUBSTANCE AND THEN THEY CHANGE THEIR MIND LIKE THAT JUST BY GIVING THEM INFORMATION, AND THAT'S WHY WHAT WE'RE DOING WORKS AND THAT'S WHY IT SHOULD BE BEST PRACTICE. IT SOUNDS SIMPLE ENOUGH, BUT POLICE SAY WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS ILLEGAL UNDER THE MISUSE OF DRUGS ACT. THOSE BEHIND THE TESTING WON'T SAY WHAT FESTIVALS THEY'VE BEEN TO BECAUSE FESTIVAL ORGANISERS COULD BE CHARGED WITH ALLOWING THEIR PREMISES TO BE USED FOR DRUGS. IN FACT HOMEGROWN, WHO FEATURED EARLIER IN THE STORY, TOLD THEM TO STAY AWAY. THEY ALSO NEVER TOUCH THE DRUGS WHEN TESTING FOR FEAR OF BEING CHARGED WITH POSSESSION, INSTEAD ASKING THE USER TO HANDLE THE SAMPLE. WE'RE OPERATING UNDER A LAW THAT IS 42 YEARS OLD. NEW ZEALAND'S MISUSE OF DRUGS ACT WAS DESIGNED AT A TIME WHEN THE BLACK MARKET WAS A SIMPLE PLACE, AND NOW IT'S A COMPLEX PLACE. IT WAS DESIGNED AT A TIME WHEN THIS TECHNOLOGY DIDN'T EXIST, WHERE THESE KINDS OF LIFE-SAVING HARM REDUCTION SERVICES DIDN'T EXIST. ROSS BELL ENDING THAT REPORT BY RYAN BOSWELL. JOINING ME NOW IS PETER DUNNE, ASSOCIATE HEALTH MINISTER. Are you going to change the law to allow these testing kits to be used? I think it is inevitable when the use of drugs act is reconsidered. I am personally in favour of it. I think it's important that people have the public safety message. I think it is a funny legal anomaly at the moment that means we can't do this, but I think that is about to change. Have you talk to your government colleagues in national about bringing this forward? I have talked to a number of Mps who are supportive of the change, and that could well be some pressure for an early move. It is likely to occur in a complete rewrite of the misuse of drugs act. When you have a piece of legislation that are so old and antiquated. In the meantime, I think we need to move with prudence on both sides, and I'm thinking in terms of police. I think these things do provide a good public service. They have a law to uphold. Some people think that they should be cracking down on that. The law is a bit ambiguous and it talks about knowledgeably permitting the consumption of drugs on premises. That's a slightly grey area. I'm not saying it is satisfactory. But I am saying that I think the law is not as black-and-white as some people would say. Some people shrug their shoulders? I think there is a strong case for the exercise of discretion and good sense. It's not a law enforcement issue here. This is a public health issue. The risks that opposed to people, if someone voluntarily chooses to have their products tested, I think that puts a slightly different perspective on. You have a pretty odd contradiction here ` a government which is presumably spending a lot of money at the border stopping drugs coming in, policing gangs and drug distribution, and then on the other hand you are saying if you turn up to a festival, it's all good and you can get it tested. It is an contradictory. Drug issues are fundamentally health issues. There are law-enforcement issues, but the fundamental issue is around health protection and public safety. In this context this is an anomaly. It does need to be tighter. I fully support this. In terms of the ranking of priority, at this stage the priority of health is more important one. Why spend money trying to prohibit something and at the same time send a message that if you have got it, it is OK? This is a message about public safety, and we do need to do all we can to crack down on the supply of illicit drugs coming across the border. I'm not suggesting any change their. But this is about people with a few items in their position at a festival that they are unsure about. I think it is certainly find that they should have some kind of check to make sure they are safe. The research shows that a significant number after the test decided not to use it after finding out it was what they thought was. Is This a middle-class liberal drug issue? This is a protection of the public health. People might not like the young people use drugs. That is a different issue. The reality is that they do. This is about one step to give some reassurance. There might be some lower socio-economic groups who are being pinged for cannabis offences, they might feel there is a justice issue here. Having it on their record. On the national drug policy at the moment we are having a review of the relevance of some of the penalties that are applied. They will be completed later this year. That is being looked at. We put it out in the National drug policy in 2015 that one of the priority areas for action. We are working away through that. In terms of this issue, you could argue because of the specific category of people to go to festivals, you might be discriminating in their favour. On the other hand, I would say that anything that gives the public more information that has got to be beneficial. If people decide they don't want to do certain things based on information they get, that is good. The fact is that MDMA and ecstasy costs a lot per pill. It is also a public health thing. If people are going to take substances that are going to cause significant risk, then they have the right to know they are doing. If they decide after the process that they will carry on as they intended, but research shows that a significant number change their behaviour as a consequence. Do you think that cannabis and the laws are run cannabis need to be changed/ ? Perhaps around decriminalisation to remove that potential for criminal offences? I've stated my personal view that what we are looking to do in the longer term is bringing the class C drugs like cannabis not on the misuse of drugs act so that they can be regulated on the level of public risk they pose. It has been my position for several years. It is not the government's position but we will keep working. The review of the misuse of drugs act? As part of the national drug policy, we face two issues at the commencement of that. We reviewed the misuse of drugs act first and then rewrote the policy or whether we did it the other way round. The intention is that in the next 18 months to 2 years will be time to review the misuse of drugs act and rewrite it to reflect the tenants of the National drug policy. The prime ministers fairly conservative on social issues. What do you think he will think about letting cannabis decriminalised? We get the policy setting right, then we look at how the legal framework reflects that. Our national drug policy talks about compassion innovation and proportion as the key principles that underline the policy. The focus is fundamentally around drug misuse as a health issue. We are working away through those and will be in review of the act, and where it leads to will be for the next parliament to determine. As Minister of internal affairs, it your thoughts on the billionaire who was given citizenship after just 12 days, would you have awarded citizenship? I was not Minister at the time. On the basis of information, the answer is probably no. Due spec to see more applications along those lines? they do come in from time to time. You take each one on its merits, but generally speaking, to apply for citizenship, he did not just rock up and apply for citizenship. He had to have permanent residence first, which he did have. To be an applicant for citizenship, you have to be resident for a minimum of five years. So I believe all those criteria were met. The particular case was considered on its merits at the time of the Minister. On the basis of the information that I've seen, I would have taken a different decision. Thank you for your time. THANKS, CORIN. WE'LL FIND OUT WHAT OUR PANEL THINKS AFTER THE BREAK. Heather Roy, if I can start with you. Your thoughts on this machine. I think it is pragmatic. People are using it already. People just try to talk about it. 39% of people who had their pills or whatever they were tested decided that they wouldn't take them. So it might actually have the flow on effective people take fewer drugs. The minister and Ross Bell have said the misuse of drugs act is completely outdated. Corin made that very valid point that the two are very incongruous. The Lord is had to be updated. We need to take a look at how societies now and how we can best deal with it. Drug addiction should be treated as a health issue and not a criminal issue. Banning drugs is not helpful to anybody. Efeso, cannabis is a big issue. Is that part of the issue? There are so many strands? Between legal highs and real cannabis? We have to our approach this with all the information there and talk about it. It's not a right or wrong. If you look at the impact on the poor communities, when it comes to certain legal activities, there is a major impact there. It's actually accessibility. We've got to say to our people let's look at it as a health issue. What can be done about it? I think it's a really good mood. There was a general surgeon during their Reagan term. He was under all sorts of fire because he said we've got to approach it as health. But that is how we have to approach it. Let's put the evidence in front of us. Let us review the Misuse of drugs act. Raymond, did you have any more clarity after what Peter Dunne had to say? I try to understand, but it is a terribly convoluted argument. He is getting quite close to legalization of cannabis. But he does have the government to deal with. And he is a party of one. Where is he consistent is that he saw himself as this part of a liberal trade tradition. Very strong and individual rights. In a sense, his heart is there. It's just that he's dealing with a very difficult situation. He's been moving slowly in a particular direction. Two thirds of New Zealanders support decriminalization. I wish you would just go there and supported. But he will he cross party support. Yes, it is a problem. Even Andrew little hinted at the referendum on decriminalization. So everyone realizes. The political elite is particular conservative and they realize this is a very highly polarizing issue. They don't want to be offending any of the potential constituents. That is exactly right. Young people often don't vote. And these are the ones interested in the issue. It's a her political issue. But it is one that is important and needs to be moved along. Looking of the US example, they have many conservatives, but in some stated has been duly criminalized. That's why I've got to have leadership in national politics. We've got to have people who are prepared to say let's sit down. I think the point, Maori and Pacific youth don't vote. But we have to refocus the discussion and ask ourselves what is best for the country in our health? Rather than think about it in three year cycles, which is part of the issue. When we get that leverage leadership, you can engage young people, because you are talking more than three years. Nikki Kaye raise this as well. Kids who will not touch it but there are young Pacific kids who have a criminal record now and they have a right to feel aggrieved. A lot of young kids in prison today are from drug-related crimes. Disproportionately they are Maori and Pacific. They've got to pulled back a bit. We as a nation have to say we have to do better. We want everyone to succeed. That is why for Maori and Pacific youth who have got a badge of having used marijuana, they can say we can be part of this conversation too. Let's sit down and say what can we do better? That private members bill touched on this. People were given a second chance. If we want to help those youth who have already a criminal record but we still want them to be able to participate and travel and have the same advantages as everyone else. There is a big question around tolerance. How do we manifest I thinking? That is currently unclear. It is a loaded issue. No pun intended. There is a moral side of it and moral outrage. That is exactly it. With that is what makes a political elite from the left and right rather reluctant. Parties are inclined to push this to one side for the reasons Heather has been talking about. We might be able to engage the young people. Time to talk to our panel for one last time for their political hits and misses of the week. Efeso, let's start with you. Two hits ` Emirates New Zealand. I'll come back to that later. But Shane Jones being announced. A maze, Maori TV showing Jonah from Tonga. Maori television says that it's been shown in other places. That his crass humor and not genuine humor. Todd McClay announced yesterday that we are about to start trade talks with Columbia and Mexico. That huge potential. My miss is Peter Thiel. A lot of people try to get into the country, and 12 days, really? My electorate office, I had a lot of people who really wanted to be New Zealanders. They often had residency but couldn't get citizenship. They inevitably had to leave the country. My hit is Shane Jones. It was anticipated. The party has milk this for a long long time. Ron Mark would rather be interesting to know about. He has been very quiet. My miss is the other Todd, Todd Barklay. It's not in relation to Bill English but more as a politician who has been hung out to dry to some extent. There is a duty of care particularly with first-term Mps. The ideal person to have counseled them through this was Bill English who has held the seat for over 20 years. I don't accuse him of indifference, I do think that Bill English was rather detached from the whole thing until it all blew up in everyone's face. But I do feel somewhat sorry for Todd Barclay