CAPTIONS BY INGRID LAUDER AND TRACEY DAWSON. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2020 TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI HAERE MAI, WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` SHOULD THE ELECTION BE DELAYED? AS HEALTH OFFICIALS SCRAMBLE TO TEST AND CONTACT-TRACE, CAN A FAIR ELECTION CAMPAIGN GO AHEAD? AND DOES AN ELIMINATION STRATEGY MEAN WE'LL BE HEADING INTO LOCKDOWN EVERY TIME SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS? WE'VE SEEN WHAT IT CAN DO IN AUSTRALIA AND OTHER PLACES. AND I THINK IT'S A SHORT-TERM SACRIFICE FOR A LONG-TERM BENEFIT. KIWIS WERE REMARKABLY COMPLIANT DURING THE FIRST LOCKDOWN. WHAT ABOUT THIS TIME AROUND? IF YOU CAN GET THREE-QUARTERS TO FOUR-FIFTHS OF PEOPLE DOING THE SOCIAL DISTANCING AT THE MOMENT, I THINK WE'VE GOT TO TAKE THAT AS A WIN. WE'LL BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH THE LATEST NUMBERS FROM THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH. SEVEN NEW COVID-19 CASES HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED, WITH SIX DIRECTLY LINKED TO THE LATEST CLUSTER AND ONE BEING INVESTIGATED. THAT MEANS THERE ARE 56 ACTIVE CASES IN NEW ZEALAND, WITH 37 FROM WITHIN THE COMMUNITY. THE PRIME MINISTER IS TODAY DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT TO DELAY THE ELECTION. JACINDA ARDERN WILL ANNOUNCE TOMORROW MORNING WHETHER TO PUSH BACK THE SEPTEMBER 19TH DATE. BUT WOULD IT BE SAFE TO PUSH AHEAD WITH AN ELECTION WITH COVID-19 RESTRICTIONS STILL IN PLACE? THE MINISTER OF HEALTH, CHRIS HIPKINS, IS WITH US NOW. MORENA. GOOD MORNING. WOULD IT BE SAFE TO HAVE AN ELECTION IF THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS IN PLACE? THAT IS THE NUMBER-ONE CRITERIA WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN MAKING ANY DECISIONS AROUND THE ELECTION. IT HAS TO BE CAN EVERYONE GO OUT THERE AND VOTE AND WILL THEY BE SAFE VOTING? THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE FACTOR. THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION HAS BEEN DOING THEIR PLANNING SINCE BEFORE THE FIRST LOCKDOWN. THEY HAVE PLANNED BASED ON A LEVEL 2 SCENARIO. THEY COULD CONDUCT AN ELECTION SAFELY WITH THE ENTIRE COUNTRY AT LEVEL 2. THEY WOULD HAVE THE DISTANCING REQUIRED AND THEY WOULD RUN IT OVER A PERIOD OF SEVERAL WEEKS SO THAT EVERYONE HAD THE CHANCE TO VOTE AND NOT HAVE LONG QUEUES WHILE PEOPLE WAITED TO LINE UP TO VOTE. THEY HAVE THAT IN HAND. THEY ARE READY TO GO FOR A LEVEL 2 SCENARIO. IT HAS TO BE SAFE. WILL WE HAVE MORE OUTBREAKS? IT IS A VIRUS. YOU CAN NEVER SAY NEVER. WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO CONTAIN THIS ONE AND TO STOP THERE BEING FURTHER OUTBREAKS. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS PUZZLING IS WE STILL DON'T KNOW HOW THIS ONE EMERGED. IT DOES NOT APPEAR TO HAVE ANY LINK TO THE BORDER OR TO ANY OF THE AREAS WE WOULD EXPECT TO SEE HEIGHTENED RISK. SO IT IS STILL A PUZZLE. YOU SAY NEVER SAY NEVER. BUT HOW LIKELY ARE FUTURE OUTBREAKS IF A VACCINE IS A YEAR OR 18 MONTHS AWAY? IT IS LIKE SAYING HOW LIKELY IS AN EARTHQUAKE. YOU DON'T KNOW. YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED. WHAT IS OUR STRATEGY? WILL WE KEEP GOING INTO VARIOUS STATES OF LOCKDOWN IF THERE ARE FUTURE OUTBREAKS? OUR STRATEGY IS TO MAKE SURE WE DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO STOP THERE BEING AN OUTBREAK. AND WE WILL TRY TO CONTAIN IT WHEN IT HAPPENS. THIS ONE IS A PUZZLE BECAUSE IT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE. WE GOT ON TOP OF IT VERY QUICKLY. THE LEVEL 3 LOCKDOWN IS HELPING ENORMOUSLY IN THAT REGARD. CONTACT TRACING IS WORKING EVEN BETTER THAN WE EXPECTED IT TO, WHICH IS VERY REASSURING. AS OF THIS MORNING THERE'S ABOUT 1500 CLOSE CONTACTS THAT HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED. ABOUT 1300 OF THEM HAVE BEEN CONTACTED ALREADY. MORE ARE BEING CONTACTED AS THEY ARE ADDED. IT IS WORKING VERY QUICKLY. MORE THAN 80% ARE BEING CONTACTED WITHIN 48 HOURS WHICH IS A STANDARD WE HAVE SET. THE CONTACT TRACING SYSTEM IS WORKING. THE TESTING IS WORKING. WE ARE SEEING RECORD LEVELS OF TESTING WHICH IS GOOD AND REASSURING. AND WE ARE NOT SEEING, OUT OF THAT RECORD LEVEL OF TESTING, ANY CASES OUTSIDE OF THIS CLUSTER SO FAR, AGAIN THAT IS REASSURING. I WANT CLARITY ON THE ELIMINATION STRATEGY. THE LIKES OF SOUTH KOREA AND SINGAPORE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO KEEP COVID-19 OUT. THEY ARE HARDLY FAILED STATES. WHY WOULD NEW ZEALAND BE ANY DIFFERENT? IN THOSE STATES AS WELL WHERE THEY HAVE CLUSTERS AND OUTBREAKS THEY ARE HAVING TO PUT RESTRICTIONS IN PLACE. OTHER COUNTRIES ARE HAVING TO DO THAT. VICTORIA ARE IN A LONG PERIOD OF LEVEL 4 LOCKDOWN. THEY DID NOT MOVE QUICK ENOUGH TO GET ON TOP OF THE OUTBREAK. TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS THE PLAN? EVERY TIME THERE IS SOME SORT OF COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION OR OUTBREAK, UNTIL WE HAVE A VACCINE, WE WILL HAVE TO GO INTO SOME FORM OF LOCKDOWN? IF YOU LOOK AT THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE TRIED AN ALTERNATIVE APPROACH AND PEOPLE KEEP POINTING TO SWEDEN ` NEARLY 6000 PEOPLE DIED IN SWEDEN AS A RESULT OF THAT STRATEGY. AND THERE IS NO GUARANTEE, IT LOOKS LIKE THEY COULD HAVE A SECOND WAVE COMING. SO THERE IS NO GUARANTEE FROM A DIFFERENT STRATEGY OTHER THAN MORE PEOPLE WOULD DIE. I THINK THE STRATEGY WE HAVE IN NEW ZEALAND IS THE RIGHT ONE FOR US HERE. WE ARE IN A FORTUNATE POSITION. IF WE DO THIS WELL, THEN WE CAN GET IN AND OUT OF LOCKDOWN VERY QUICKLY. THAT IS THE GOAL HERE ` TO LOCKDOWN AS FAST AS WE CAN. THE MESSAGE TO NEW ZEALANDERS IS PLEASE DO YOUR PART HERE. EVERYONE'S LIVELIHOODS REST ON GETTING US OUT OF LOCKDOWN AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN. YOU HAVE SEEN THE PICTURES OUT OF AUCKLAND OVER THE LAST 24 HOURS OR SO. DO YOU THINK MASKS SHOULD BE COMPULSORY FOR EVERYONE IN PUBLIC? CERTAINLY IF YOU ARE GOING TO THE BEACH OR GOING TO PLACES OTHER PEOPLE WILL BE, PLEASE WEAR A MASK. STAY 2M APART FROM ONE ANOTHER. WE HAVE NEVER RULED OUT COMPULSION AROUND MASKS. WE ARE DEALING WITH THE SUPPLY ISSUES FIRST AND FOREMOST. WE WANT TO MAKE SURE MASKS ARE AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. WE HAVE BEEN RELEASING THEM FROM THE NATIONAL RESERVE TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE ENOUGH AND GET THEM OUT THERE. THEY ARE GOING THROUGH CHURCHES AND SALVATION ARMY AND FOOD BANKS AND OTHER GROUPS TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE CAN GET THEM. THEY ARE AVAILABLE THROUGH THE SUPERMARKETS, AND WE ARE WORKING WITH THEM TO MAKE SURE THEIR SUPPLY CHAINS ARE ROBUST. PLEASE WEAR ONE. IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A DISPOSABLE OR MEDICAL GRADE MASK. IT CAN BE A REUSABLE FACE COVERING. PEOPLE ARE BEING CREATIVE IN THOSE. GOOD ON THEM. DO THAT IF YOU CAN'T GET HOLD OF A DISPOSABLE ONE. SO WHY NOT MAKE THEM COMPULSORY? WE ARE DEALING WITH THE SUPPLY ISSUES AND MAKING SURE EVERYONE CAN GET THEM. I WILL NOT RULE THAT OUT. WERE YOU USING THE COVID-19 APP BEFORE THIS OUTBREAK TO TRACE YOUR MOVEMENTS? I HAVE BEEN USING THEM WHERE A QR CODE IS AVAILABLE. I HAVE NOT BEEN MANUALLY ADDING IN MY DETAILS. WHY NOT? I HAVE A MINUTE BY MINUTE DIARY THAT IS KEPT BY OTHER PEOPLE AS A MINISTER. IF I HAD TO DO CONTACT TRACING, THE COMBINATION OF MY USE OF THE QR CODE AND THE MINISTERIAL DIARY MEANS I COULD VERY QUICKLY IDENTIFY EVERYONE I HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH. THAT IS WHAT THE APP IS DESIGNED TO DO. WHAT ABOUT OUTSIDE OF WORK? I HAVE BEEN MAKING SURE I AM KEEPING A RECORD. TO BE FAIR, IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS THERE HAS NOT BEEN MUCH TIME OUTSIDE OF WORK. BUT BEFORE THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, HAVE YOU BEEN LOGGING YOUR MOVEMENT OUTSIDE OF WORK? THAT FUNCTIONALITY HAS ONLY BEEN ADDED IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS. I KEEP A DIARY, AND THAT RECORDS THE PEOPLE I HAVE COME INTO CONTACT WITH. SO I STILL HAVE THAT. IF I HAD TO CONTACT TRACE, I COULD DO THAT VERY QUICKLY. THAT IS WHAT WE ASK EVERY NEW ZEALANDER TO DO WHETHER THEY ARE USING THE APP OR NOT. THEY NEED TO IDENTIFY EVERYONE THEY HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH THE LAST TWO WEEKS. THAT'S THE STANDARD. EVERYONE'S GOT TO BE PREPARED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. DO YOU THINK NEW ZEALANDERS WERE TOO COMPLACENT HEADING INTO THIS OUTBREAK? I THINK WE RELAXED. I THINK WE WERE PROUD OF OUR SUCCESS AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING PROUD OF THAT. BUT THE MESSAGE YOU HAVE HEARD ME SAY AS MINISTER OF HEALTH FOR SEVEN WEEKS, YOU HAVE HEARD ME SAY OUR SUCCESS IS NO EXCUSE FOR BEING COMPLACENT. WHY DID THE GOVERNMENT NOT GO HARDER PUSHING THE COVID-19 APP BEFORE NOW? WE HAVE BEEN. BUT WE NEED NEW ZEALANDERS TO TAKE IT UP. THE GOOD NEWS IS THE NUMBER OF USERS HAVE DOUBLED. EXACTLY. SO WHY WEREN'T MORE PEOPLE USING IT BEFORE NOW? WHY HAS IT TAKEN AN OUTBREAK FOR PEOPLE TO PICK THIS UP? YOU CAN TAKE OUT ADVERTISEMENTS, AND WE DID NOT EVEN HAVE THE MANUAL LOGGING FUNCTION UNTIL THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. WHEN I BECAME THE MINISTER OF HEALTH THAT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I DID WAS LOOK AT THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE APP; SPEED UP THAT ADDITIONALITY THAT MAKES IT MORE USABLE FOR PEOPLE. WE'VE DONE THAT AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN. ANOTHER UPDATE IS COMING AT THE BEGINNING OF SEPTEMBER ADDING MORE FUNCTIONALITY. WE ARE MOVING AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN. IT TAKES A BIT OF TIME TO DEVELOP AND TEST IT TO MAKE SURE WE ARE NOT DOWNLOADING SOMETHING ON PEOPLE'S PHONES THAT WON'T WORK` TO BE TOTALLY SAFE, WHY DID YOU NOT MAKE THE APP OR SOME FORM OF SIGN-IN COMPULSORY FOR WORKPLACES AND SCHOOLS, EVEN UNDER ALERT LEVEL 1? WE DIDN'T NEED TO DO THAT. THE RISK LEVEL WOULD NOT HAVE JUSTIFIED THAT. NOW THERE IS A HEIGHTENED RISK LEVEL NOW, SO WE HAVE MADE DISPLAYING QR CODES COMPULSORY. AND WHEN YOU'RE AT LEVEL 3 YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE EITHER SCANNING A QR CODE` OH. WE SEEM TO HAVE A TECHNICAL PROBLEM. WE HAVE LOST HEALTH MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS. HOPEFULLY THAT IS NOT A SIGN OF ANYTHING TOO OMINOUS. WE WILL TRY TO RE-ESTABLISH OUR LINE WITH MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS, AND WE'LL BE BACK WITH YOU ON Q+A IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES. * HOKI MAI ANO. NATIONAL WANTS THE ELECTION MOVED. THE DATE IS CURRENTLY SET FOR FIVE WEEKS FROM NOW ON SEPTEMBER 19TH. BUT JUDITH COLLINS SAYS THE LATEST COVID-19 OUTBREAK MAKES THAT UNFEASIBLE. SHE'S WITH US NOW. WELCOME TO Q+A. GOOD MORNING, JACK. WHY DO YOU WANT THE ELECTION MOVED? IT IS THE FAIR THING TO DO. I HAVE JUST HEARD CHRIS HIPKINS SAY IT REALLY ONLY MATTERS IF PEOPLE ARE NOT UNSAFE, UNDERTAKING ELECTIONEERING. SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU. I ONLY ASKED HIM ABOUT SAFETY. HE SAID THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION HAS PLANS TO OPERATE AT ALERT LEVEL 2. I DID NOT ASK HIM ANYTHING WITH REGARDS TO DEMOCRATIC FAIRNESS. IS THAT YOUR CONCERN? THE DEMOCRATIC FAIRNESS IS CRUCIAL. FOR INSTANCE, PEOPLE WHO ARE VOTING SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE ACCESS TO CANDIDATES, TO POLICIES TO BE ABLE TO GET THE SORT OF SCRUTINY OF THOSE POLICIES. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT 19 SEPTEMBER. IT IS THE FACT THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO KNOW WHAT THE POLICIES ARE FOR NOT JUST THAT DAY BUT FOR THE YEAR AFTER THAT, THE YEAR AFTER THAT. THERE ARE PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS. IT IS THE PRIME MINISTER'S CALL. SO WE COULD BE BACK AT LEVEL 1 IN A FORTNIGHT. THAT WOULD STILL GIVE YOU 3 1/2 WEEKS TO CAMPAIGN. IS THAT NOT ENOUGH TIME TO SELL YOUR VISION? PEOPLE MIGHT EXPECT YOU WOULD HAVE MORE THAN A WEEK BEFORE THE POLLING BOOTHS OPEN. I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE THE POLLING BOOTHS OPEN AROUND THREE WEEKS BEFORE THE ACTUAL DATE OF POLLING DATE. SO I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT MOST PEOPLE WOULD WANT MORE THAN A WEEK. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO, 1.7 MILLION NEW ZEALANDERS WHO ARE IN LOCKDOWN AT THE MOMENT, WHO CANNOT GO ABOUT THEIR NORMAL BUSINESS AND THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR HEALTH AND THEIR BUSINESSES, NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE CONSERVATION POLICY OF THE GREEN PARTY. THERE IS ONE WEEK BETWEEN POTENTIAL END OF LOCKDOWN AND EARLY VOTING BEGINNING. IF PEOPLE DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY ARE WELL INFORMED ENOUGH TO MAKE A VOTE AT THAT STAGE, THEY DON'T HAVE TO MAKE A VOTE UNTIL AT LEAST SEPTEMBER 19. WHY IS 3 1/2 WEEKS NOT ENOUGH FOR ALL PARTIES TO PRESENT THEIR IDEAS TO VOTERS? IF YOU ARE OUT AND CAMPAIGNING YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE WANT TO GO TO PUBLIC MEETINGS. WE CANNOT HOLD THOSE AT THE MOMENT. ALSO IT'S EVEN GETTING OUT PAMPHLETS TO PEOPLE. SO I'S IT'S NOT JUST THAT THOUGH. I'VE BEEN PRESENTED WITH A LIST OF 71 COUNTRIES WHERE THE VOTING HAS BEEN DELAYED BECAUSE OF COVID-19 THIS YEAR. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH IT BEING DELAYED? WE CAN DO IT THROUGH THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION. WE HAVE HAD LEGAL ADVICE ON THAT, AS THEY HAVE GIVEN THE GOVERNMENT, BUT WE WOULD HELP THE GOVERNMENT IF THEY WANTED TO PUSH IT OUT TO NEXT YEAR. WE HAVE A THREE-YEAR TERM. IT IS NOT LIKE A FIVE-YEAR TERM. WE ARE NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT BEING IN THERE TOO LONG. AND WHAT HAPPENS IF THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS WE ARE GOING AHEAD ON 19 SEPTEMBER AND TWO WEEKS LATER WE ARE BACK AT LEVEL 2 OR LEVEL 3? THIS IS ABOUT YOUR POLLING, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? YOU WOULD NOT BE MAKING THIS ARGUMENT TO ME IF YOU WERE POLLING IN THE HIGH 40s. I WOULD SAY TO YOU, JACK, IMAGINE IF IT WAS A NATIONAL-LED GOVERNMENT THAT SAID WE WOULD CHARGE AHEAD WITH AN ELECTION WHEN WE HAVE THE LEVEL OF ANXIETY IN THE PUBLIC AND WITH 1.7 MILLION NEW ZEALANDERS LOCKED DOWN. I IMAGINE WHAT YOU AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BE SAYING IF IT WAS, SAY, A JOHN KEY-LED GOVERNMENT THAT WAS SAYING THAT WE CHARGE AHEAD. I'D BE SAYING THE OPPOSITION HAS 3 1/2 WEEKS TO MAKE THEIR ARGUMENT. IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A 100% SECURE BORDER? IT IS WHEN YOU LIVE IN A COUNTRY LIKE NEW ZEALAND. WE ARE A VERY ISOLATED COUNTRY. IF IT IS, WHY IS YOUR HEALTH SPOKESPERSON, SHANE RETI, SAYING THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE? WHAT HE'S LOOKING AT IS THE FACT THAT THERE IS HUMAN FAILURE. AND CLEARLY THERE IS A SYSTEMIC FAILURE IN THIS CASE. SO ARE YOU AND YOUR HEALTH SPOKESPERSON DISAGREEING? YOU SAID IT'S POSSIBLE TO HAVE A 100% SECURE BORDER. HE SAYS THERE'S ALWAYS GONNA BE SOME LEVEL OF HUMAN FAILURE. HE IS TALKING ABOUT HUMAN FAILURE, I AM TALKING ABOUT SYSTEMIC FAILURE. THE GOVERNMENT HAD ONE JOB. WHAT WE ARE FINDING SOME DAYS LATER, THEY STILL CANNOT TELL US HOW THIS COVID-19 CAME INTO THE COUNTRY. CHRIS HIPKINS SAID THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM. MEGAN WOODS, THE MINISTER FOR THE BORDER, SHE HAS TOLD US IT HAS EITHER COME FROM THE UK OR AUSTRALIA. SO CLEARLY THEY ARE AT ODDS. AND THE FACT THEY CANNOT TELL US WHAT HAS HAPPENED SHOULD BE VERY CONCERNING TO EVERY NEW ZEALANDER. WHAT WOULD YOU BE DOING DIFFERENTLY IF YOU WERE PRIME MINISTER TODAY? RIGHT NOW I WOULD MAKE SURE THAT I HAD A SYSTEM THAT WORKED AT THE BORDER. THEY SAY THEY HAVE DONE THAT NOW. SO GIVE ME SOME SPECIFICS. WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY? THEY TOLD US THEY HAD THAT BEFORE AS WELL. I THINK IT'S A SHAME JACINDA ARDERN KEPT IN PLACE A MINISTER OF HEALTH, DAVID CLARK, WHO CLEARLY DID NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO KEEP IT SAFE. HINDSIGHT IS GREAT BUT WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY TODAY? I DON'T THINK YOU CAN SAY HINDSIGHT'S GREAT. IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WE WERE TOLD BY JACINDA ARDERN AND HER GOVERNMENT THAT WE HAD BEATEN IT, THAT 102 DAYS WITHOUT COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION. SO I WOULD NOT BE MAKING PROMISES` THEY ALSO SAID IT WAS LIKELY TO COME BACK. THEY SAID IT WAS A GOOD CHANCE IT WOULD COME BACK. LOOK AT ALL THE COUNTRIES WHERE THERE HAS BEEN A SECOND WAVE. CLEARLY THIS IS A HIGHLY INFECTIOUS VIRUS. WHAT WOULD YOU DIFFERENTLY TODAY IF YOU WERE PRIME MINISTER TODAY? TODAY? FOR INSTANCE, WE HAVE A BORDER POLICY COMING OUT THIS WEEK THAT WE WILL NOT BE MAKING PROMISES WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO DELIVER. I THINK IT WILL BE A COMPREHENSIVE POLICY THAT PEOPLE WILL SAY, 'THANKFULLY SOMEONE'S THINKING ABOUT IT.' WHY WAS THAT POLICY NOT OUT BEFORE NOW? WHAT DO YOU MEAN? WE HAVE HAD 102 DAYS WHERE WE HAVE HAD NO COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION. WHY ARE WE STILL WAITING FOR YOUR BORDER POLICY? WE BELIEVED, LIKE 5 MILLION NEW ZEALANDERS, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT SAID THAT THEY HAD A SECURE BORDER. IT TURNS OUT THAT IT TOOK A JOURNALIST FROM A MEDIA ORGANISATION TO BE ABLE TO UNCOVER IT, BUT THE OTHER THING TOO, TO HAVE A DELAYED ELECTION IS THAT WE MUST SURELY HAVE PARLIAMENTARY SCRUTINY NOW. THE FACT IS IF IT WASN'T FOR SOMEONE LIKE THAT PARTICULAR JOURNALIST, WE WOULD NOT KNOW ABOUT THE MASSIVE FAILURES AT THE JET PARK, FOR INSTANCE. YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ME ANYTHING YOU WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY TODAY. AS AN EXAMPLE, WOULD YOU MAKE FACEMASKS COMPULSORY IN AUCKLAND AS OF TODAY? IF THAT WAS THE ADVICE WE HAD FROM THE MEDICAL EXPERTS, YES. WHAT YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND, AND I'M SURE YOU DO, IS THAT WE ARE NOT GETTING THE INFORMATION THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS. WE ARE BEING TOLD IT, LIKE THE MEDIA, IN SOME CASES A FEW MINUTES BEFOREHAND. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE WOULD SHARE THAT INFORMATION. ONE THING WE WOULD DO, WHICH IS WHAT WE DID DURING THE FUEL CRISIS ISSUE IN 2017 FOR THAT ELECTION, WAS TO KEEP THE OPPOSITION FULLY INFORMED. WE WOULD MAKE SURE THEY HAD THAT INFORMATION. YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT SHANE RETI NOT BEING DEBRIEFED. HAS HE NOT BEEN BRIEFED SUFFICIENTLY IN THE LAST FEW DAYS? HE IS NOW GETTING CURSORY BRIEFINGS, BUT BETTER THAN HE WAS. BUT WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO ASSURE NEW ZEALANDERS, OR THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO, AND PUBLIC NEED TO BE ABLE TO TRUST THE ADVICE THAT WHEN THEY HAVE THE BORDER SECURE, THEY DO. BUT THEY CAN'T EVEN TELL US WHERE THIS HAS COME FROM. TRUST IS VERY IMPORTANT. DO YOU HAVE CONFIDENCE IN ASHLEY BLOOMFIELD? WOULD HE STAY IN THAT ROLE IF YOU WERE PRIME MINISTER? OF COURSE. AND HE IS APPOINTED BY THE STATE SERVICES COMMISSION, NOT BY A MINISTER. IF YOU WERE IN CHARGE, WOULD YOU CONTINUE WITH THE ELIMINATION STRATEGY? SO THAT IF THERE WAS ANOTHER OUTBREAK IN NEW ZEALAND BEFORE A VACCINE WAS AVAILABLE, WE WOULD GO INTO A LOCKDOWN? IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE THE ELIMINATION STRATEGY. WE HAVE NO CHANCE OF HERD IMMUNITY IN NEW ZEALAND. BUT WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BE IN LOCKDOWN, YO-YOING IN AND OUT OF LOCKDOWN. HANG ON, YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH. YOU CAN'T CONTINUE THE ELIMINATION STRATEGY BUT THEN NOT GO INTO LOCKDOWN IF WE HAVE OUTBREAKS. WE HAVE FAR MORE CONFIDENCE THAN YOU DO, JACK. THE REASON FOR THAT IS WE WILL HAVE CONFIDENCE IN OUR BORDERS. BUT WE WILL ALSO HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE CONTACT TRACING, CONFIDENCE THAT WE WOULD HAVE ENOUGH MASKS AND GLOVES FOR OUR FRONTLINE WORKERS, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS FAILED ON. WE WOULD HAVE A FAR MORE COMPETENT SYSTEM AND WOULD MAKE SURE IT WORKED. YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO ARTICULATE ANYTHING YOU WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY FOR THAT SYSTEM. THAT'S VERY UNFAIR, ISN'T IT. I HAVE GIVEN YOU MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY. YOU'VE SAID, 'MONTHS AGO WE WOULD HAVE DONE THAT DIFFERENTLY.' I AM ASKING WHAT YOU WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY TODAY AND YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO ARTICULATE ANYTHING. THAT IS VERY UNFAIR. WHAT IS FAIR IS THAT WE WOULD NOT PROMISE AND THEN FAIL TO DELIVER. THAT IS THE BIG ISSUE HERE. THE GOVERNMENT TOLD US THE COVID-19 TRACING APP WAS WORKING. SO WE'D HAVE TO TRUST YOU. THEY TOLD US THAT THE MASKS WERE IN PLACE. THEY TOLD US ALL THESE THINGS AND THEY FAILED. SO WE WOULD BE ABLE TO DELIVER ON WHAT WE PROMISE. SO WE ARE TO TRUST THE PARTY THAT, JUST WEEKS AGO, LEAKED PRIVATE PATIENT INFORMATION FOR PEOPLE WITH COVID-19? THAT IS THE PARTY WE ARE TO TRUST? THAT IS A RIDICULOUS COMMENT. IT WAS NOT THE PARTY THAT DID THAT. IT WAS YOUR FORMER PARTY PRESIDENT, ONE OF YOUR MPS, AND THE HEALTH SPOKESMAN AT THE TIME ALSO HAD ACCESS TO THAT INFORMATION. HE USED THE FACT THAT INFORMATION HAD BEEN LEAKED TO ATTACK THE GOVERNMENT EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW THE SOURCE OF THE INFORMATION. AND YOU ARE THE PARTY TO TRUST? JACK, WOULD YOU LET ME ANSWER? I DEALT WITH THAT ISSUE. THE FORMER PARTY PRESIDENT WAS A PARTY PRESIDENT FOR A MATTER OF MONTHS 20 YEARS AGO. THE PERSON WHO LEAKED THE INFORMATION IS NO LONGER STANDING FOR US AND WILL BE GONE AT THE ELECTION. THE HEALTH SPOKESMAN, WHO I THOUGHT SHOULD HAVE PASSED ON THE INFORMATION STRAIGHT AWAY TO THE MINISTER OF HEALTH, I SAID THAT, AND THAT IS BACKED UP WITH A HERALD REPORT. HE IS NO LONGER THE HEALTH SPOKESMAN. THAT HAS BEEN DEALT WITH. THAT IS A LONG WAY FROM PROMISING TO PUT IN PLACE ALL THE SECURITY AROUND THE BORDERS... YOU BROUGHT THIS UP. DO YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THE GOVERNMENT KNEW ABOUT COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION BEFORE THAT TRANSMISSION WAS MADE PUBLIC? WE DON'T HAVE EVIDENCE OF THAT. SO WHY DID YOUR DEPUTY REPEATEDLY IMPLY THAT THE GOVERNMENT KNEW MORE THAN IT WAS LETTING ON? GERRY BROWNLEE APOLOGISED FOR CHOOSING HIS WORDS UNWISELY. HE WAS REFLECTING THE LEVEL OF CONCERN IN THE PUBLIC. HE AND I ALL OF OUR MPS ARE RECEIVING A LOT OF CONCERN FROM THE PUBLIC. SO HE HAD NO EVIDENCE? BUT IT IS OKAY TO RAISE THAT? ONLY CONCERN FOR THE PUBLIC. BUT THE GOVERNMENT WASN'T TELLING US THE TRUTH ABOUT THE LEVEL OF SECURITY THEY HAD AT THE BORDER OR THE LEVEL OF SECURITY THEY HAD FOR THE STAFF WHO WERE WORKING THERE. TO BE TOLD, AS WE WERE BY CHRIS HIPKINS, THAT IT IS A HEAVY-HANDED WAY TO HAVE PEOPLE TESTED FOR COVID-19 WHEN THEY'RE STAFF, THAT IMPLIED THAT STAFF WERE REFUSING. WE HAVE STAFF COMING FORWARD SAYING THEY WERE NEVER ASKED AND WHEN THEY DID ASK THEY WERE REFUSED IT. SO PEOPLE SHOULD ASK QUESTIONS, AND ONE OF THE REASONS TO HAVE PARLIAMENTARY SCRUTINY IS SO THOSE QUESTIONS CAN BE ASKED AND ANSWERED. ON TUESDAY NIGHT, HOW LONG BEFORE THE PRIME MINISTER'S PRESS CONFERENCE WERE YOU BRIEFED ABOUT THE COVID-19 OUTBREAK? I WAS BRIEFED AT QUARTER TO 9 BY THE PRIME MINISTER. I HAD ALL SORTS OF ALLEGATIONS MADE AGAINST ME BY MEMBERS OF THE LABOUR PARTY THAT I MUST HAVE KNOWN EARLIER. WHAT WERE THE ALLEGATIONS? YOU KNOW, OTHERWISE WHY WOULD YOU BE ASKING ME? YOU WERE THE ONE WHO SAID YOU DIDN'T HAVE INFORMATION SOON ENOUGH. WHO DID YOU TELL AFTER YOU WERE TOLD? I TOLD GERRY BROWNLEE JUST BEFORE THE PRESS CONFERENCE BECAUSE HE WASN'T AVAILABLE WHEN I FIRST CALLED HIM. NO ONE ELSE? NO ONE ELSE. WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME THAT? I'M INTERESTED TO KNOW. CAN YOU TELL ME WHY? YOU WERE THE ONE COMPLAINING ABOUT NOT HAVING INFORMATION. I AM INTERESTED TO KNOW WHO YOU WOULD TELL. IT'S AN ISSUE OF TRUST. YOU WANT TO BE TRUSTED WITH THIS INFORMATION. JACK, I THINK YOU ARE ACTUALLY DOING EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE ACCUSED GERRY BROWNLEE OF DOING. I'M JUST ASKING QUESTIONS. AFTER ALL, THESE ARE THE CONCERNS THAT THE PUBLIC HAS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, JUDITH COLLINS. I'M SURE WE WILL SPEAK AGAIN VERY SOON. DO YOU THINK THE ELECTION SHOULD BE DELAYED? SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER AT NZQANDA. YOU CAN POST ON FACEBOOK OR EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ. THE PANEL'S COMING UP. BUT WE'LL BE BACK WITH CHRIS HIPKINS AFTER THE BREAK. * WELCOME BACK TO Q+A. MINISTER OF HEALTH CHRIS HIPKINS IS BACK WITH US. MORENA, MINISTER. CAN YOU HEAR ME? GOOD MORNING AGAIN. I CAN HEAR YOU. I WANT TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING JUDITH COLLINS REFERENCE. LARGE NUMBERS OF AUCKLAND BORDER STAFF HAD NEVER BEEN TESTED. YOU HAVE ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS. WHY WAS IT NOT COMPULSORY FOR FRONT-FACING BORDER STAFF TO BE TESTED? IT IS COMPULSORY NOW AND IT HAS BEEN FOR THE LAST 48 HOURS, AND WE ARE WORKING AWAY THROUGH IT. WE WERE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT MORE TESTING WAS HAPPENING. THAT WAS THE INFORMATION WE HAD. WHY DID YOU NOT MAKE IT COMPULSORY? IT HASN'T HAPPENED AS QUICKLY AS IT SHOULD HAVE. I ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT. THE PEOPLE ON THE FRONT LINES ARE THE PEOPLE WHO DO THAT TESTING. BUT IT HASN'T HAPPENED FAST ENOUGH. BUT WHY WAS IT NOT COMPULSORY? IT IS COMPULSORY NOW. I KNOW. WHY WAS IT NOT BEFOREHAND? THE DECISION WAS MADE AT THE TIME TO NOT MAKE IT COMPULSORY WHEN WE MOVED TO LEVEL 1 IN THE FIRST PLACE. WHY? WHY WAS IT NOT COMPULSORY? I'M FOCUSED ON MOVING FORWARD. IT'S COMPULSORY NOW. I KNOW YOU ARE. BUT AS JUDITH COLLINS JUST SAID, TRUST AND COMPETENCY ARE TWO CENTRAL ISSUES WHEN IT COMES TO DEALING WITH COVID-19. TO HAVE FAITH IN YOUR PROCESSES GOING FORWARD, WE NEED TO SEE WHAT'S GONE WRONG IN THE PAST. SO PLEASE TELL ME, WHY WAS IT NOT COMPULSORY BEFOREHAND? I WANT TO CHALLENGE YOU ON THE NOTION THAT SOMETHING HAS GONE WRONG HERE. TESTING AT THE BORDER IS A BACKSTOP. THE PRIMARY MEASURES THAT WE PUT IN PLACE TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE AT THE BORDER ARE ALL OF THE PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT THAT IS PUT IN PLACE, THE PROTECTIVE GEAR THAT PEOPLE WEAR, THAT IS THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENCE. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT THIS LATEST OUTBREAK IS A REFLECTION OR A RESULT OF A FAILURE AT THE BORDER. THIS IS A VERY REASONABLE QUESTION. WHY WAS IT NOT COMPULSORY GIVEN OUR VULNERABILITIES TO COVID-19, GIVEN WE HAD ELIMINATED IT FOR THE BEST PART OF THREE MONTHS. OUR BORDER WAS A BIG VULNERABILITY. PEOPLE ARRIVING AND THEN INTERACTING WITH THE PEOPLE WORKING THERE. IT SEEMS EXTRAORDINARY, GIVEN YOU WERE PREPARED TO SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY, THAT YOU WOULD NOT COMPEL ALL OF THOSE STAFF MEMBERS TO BE TESTED. THIS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I DID WHEN I BECAME MINISTER OF HEALTH WAS TO SET OUT EXPECTATIONS OF PEOPLE BEING TESTED AT THE BORDER. I HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD OVER THE LAST SIX WEEKS TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN. IT HAS NOT HAPPENED AT THE SPEED I WANTED IT TO. I USED THE LAST AVAILABLE LEVER TO ME, WHICH IS TO MAKE IT COMPULSORY, AND I SIGNED THE ORDER ON THAT LAST WEEK. WHAT ASSURANCES DID YOU SEEK AS MINISTER BEFORE THIS OUTBREAK? YOU MAY HAVE ASKED IF PEOPLE WERE TESTED. DID YOU SEEK EXPLICIT NUMBERS OF THOSE STAFF MEMBERS BEING TESTED? I DID. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS CHALLENGING IS THEY WERE NOT ALL TESTED AT WORK. THEY MIGHT BE TESTED AT THE GP. WERE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE NUMBER? NO, I WASN'T. I HAVE BEEN OPEN THAT I WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THE NUMBERS. I HAVE BEEN OPENLY ANSWERING PUBLIC QUESTIONS ABOUT HAVING WORK TO DO TO GET THOSE NUMBERS UP. I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THAT FOR THE ENTIRE TIME I HAVE BEEN MINISTER OF HEALTH. WE KEEP COMING BACK TO THE CENTRAL WORD ` TRUST. LAST WEEK HEALTH OFFICIALS SAID REGULAR TESTS WERE HAPPENING FOR BORDER WORKERS, THE PRIME MINISTER SAID TESTING WAS HAPPENING FOR STAFF AT THE BORDER 'ALL THE WAY THROUGH.' IN JUNE THE GOVERNMENT SAID THEY WOULD DO REGULAR ASYMPTOMATIC TESTING FOR ALL WORKERS AT THE BORDER. THAT WAS JUNE 23RD. FROM THIS POINT FORTH, GIVEN YOUR TESTING HAS NOT BEEN IN LINE WITH YOUR PUBLIC STATEMENTS, WHY SHOULD THE PUBLIC TRUST YOU ON THIS ISSUE? WHAT WE DO HAVE NOW IS A DAILY UPDATE OF THE BREAKDOWN OF THE NUMBER OF TESTS AND WHERE THEY ARE BEING TAKEN. WE ARE NOW CODING BORDER STAFF SEPARATELY FROM THE GENERAL PUBLIC SO THAT WE CAN HAVE A VERY CLEAR LINE OF SIGHT. THAT WAS SOMETHING I ASKED FOR AS SOON I BECAME THE MINISTER OF HEALTH. IT HAS TAKEN THEM A WHILE TO DEVELOP THAT SYSTEM. I AM NOW GETTING A DAILY UPDATE OF EXACTLY WHO HAS BEEN TESTED, WHERE, AND WHAT THE RESULTS ARE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. WE'VE BEEN HERE BEFORE ` LOCKDOWN LIFE, RETHINKING OUR WORK, SCHOOL AND FUTURE PLANS. KIWIS WERE NOTABLY COMPLIANT WHEN WE WENT INTO LOCKDOWN IN MARCH. NOW WE'RE AT LEVEL 3 IN AUCKLAND AND LEVEL 2 AROUND THE REST OF AOTEAROA, SO WILL COMPLIANCE BE DIFFERENT THIS TIME AROUND? WHENA OWEN ASKED THE EXPERTS. AND HERE WE GO AGAIN, NEW ZEALAND. BACK ON THE LOCKDOWN LEVELS. REMEMBER LAST TIME? IN FEBRUARY, MARCH, WE WORKED TOGETHER. THERE WAS A GENERAL CONSENSUS TO GO EARLY AND GO HARD. AND KIWIS SAID, 'YEAH, THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE GOOD, BUT WE CAN DO IT.' OTAGO UNIVERSITY PSYCHIATRIST DR CHRIS GALE. WE'RE NOW IN AUGUST. WE ALL KNOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS. KIWIS ARE NORMALLY FAIRLY GOOD AT DOING SOMETHING THAT THEY AGREE TO IF THEY CAN SEE THE REASON. HOWEVER, THIS TIME ROUND, PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE BIT MORE CYNICAL. THEY ARE... THEY'VE STILL GOT A CERTAIN SENSE OF FATIGUE AND A CERTAIN HIGHER LEVEL OF STRESS THAN THEY HAD IN FEBRUARY. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? DR GALE SAYS IT'S UNREALISTIC FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO EXPECT 95% COMPLIANCE WITH LOCKDOWN REGULATIONS THIS TIME ROUND. IF YOU CAN GET THREE-QUARTERS TO FOUR-FIFTHS OF PEOPLE DOING THE SOCIAL DISTANCING AT THE MOMENT, I THINK WE'VE GOT TO TAKE THAT AS A WIN. (PEOPLE CLAMOUR) IN THE PAST FOUR MONTHS, NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE ALSO WITNESSED NORTHERN HEMISPHERE RESISTANCE TO LONG LOCKDOWNS. CONSPIRACY EXPERT DR M DENTITH FROM WAIKATO UNIVERSITY. SOME PEOPLE ARE ALSO GOING, 'WE DON'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THAT KIND OF THING,' WHICH IS ALSO LEADING TO A CERTAIN KIND OF RESISTANCE TOWARDS A LOCKDOWN. AND THAT'S PUTTING ASIDE THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT CLAIM THAT THIS LOCKDOWN HAS BEEN MANUFACTURED BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR SOME MALIGN PURPOSE. ARE WE GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO LOCK US DOWN AND DESTROY OUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS? PROTESTERS: NO! NO, WE'RE NOT. THIS WAS AN ANTI-LOCKDOWN RALLY A FEW DAYS AGO IN WHANGAREI. NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC PARTY LEADER BILLY TE KAHIKA JR IS LEADING A RESISTANCE MOVEMENT AGAINST LOCKDOWN AND PROMOTES VARIOUS CONSPIRACY THEORIES. HE'S NOT BEING INSINCERE WHEN HE PROMOTES THESE CONSPIRACY THEORIES, HE BELIEVES THEM, AND HE IS ATTRACTING A WIDE CHURCH OF PEOPLE. WOMAN: EXTREMELY CONCERNED ABOUT THE LOCKDOWN, THE VALIDITY OF THE LOCKDOWN. AND THE OUTDOORS PARTY HAS HAD ITS OWN SMALLER ANTI-LOCKDOWN PROTESTS. LIKE OTHER RESISTERS, THEY WILL NOT WEAR MASKS. SAY NO! SAY NO TO THIS! MAN: WHAT WE'VE GOT TODAY IS CHECKPOINTS HERE AT BOMBAY. THIS LOCKDOWN, POLICE ARE MORE VISIBLE, AND THEY'RE TAKING A GENTLE APPROACH. UNLIKE VICTORIA, FACE MASKS HERE ARE NOT MANDATORY, JUST STRONGLY ADVISED. IN DUNEDIN, DR GALE IS WORRIED ABOUT OTHER HUMAN RESPONSES TO COVID-19 ` A DELAYED REACTION TO THE STRESS IT HAS CAUSED. AND THE EMOTIONAL CONSEQUENCES AND THE FATIGUE AND EXHAUSTION HIT. AND THAT'S WHEN MARRIAGES START FALLING OVER. THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE START HITTING SUBSTANCES. THAT'S WHEN THE BOOZE INTAKE GOES UP. THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE GET ANXIOUS. THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE GET DEPRESSED. SO THAT'S DELAYED. AND UNFORTUNATELY, THIS SECOND COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION IS HITTING US JUST AS THAT IS ROLLING IN. THE MAJORITY OF NEW ZEALANDERS ARE WORKING WITH THE OFFICIAL COVID KAUPAPA. THE HEALTH MINISTRY REPORTS THAT IN THE TWO DAYS SINCE THIS LAST WEEK'S LOCKDOWN ANNOUNCEMENT, 388,000 PEOPLE SIGNED UP FOR THE TRACING APP. WHENA OWEN REPORTING THERE. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL NOW. SADLY, THEY CAN'T JOIN ME IN PERSON BECAUSE OF THE LEVEL 3 RESTRICTIONS. EFESO COLLINS, AUCKLAND COUNCILLOR, AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN, NZME HEAD OF BUSINESS. KIA ORA KORUA. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US. I WILL START WITH THIS ELECTION DATE ISSUE. THE PRIME MINISTER WILL BE CONSIDERING WHETHER TO MOVE THE SEPTEMBER 19 ELECTION AND WILL MAKE THE ANNOUNCEMENT TOMORROW. EFESO, DO YOU THINK THE ELECTION SHOULD MOVE? I THINK WE CAN GO WITH THE ELECTION AT ITS CURRENT DATE, ALTHOUGH MY SENSE IS THAT SHE WILL ANNOUNCE A NOVEMBER ELECTION AT LEAST. THERE HAS BEEN QUITE A BIT OF MEDIA COVERAGE AND PRESSURE TO MOVE IT, GIVEN THAT PEOPLE ARE SENSING... POLITICIANS DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO CAMPAIGN. THE CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICE WILL MAKE THE FINAL DECISION. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE KNOW THAT YOU CAN STILL HAVE THE ELECTION UNDER LEVEL 2. THERE ARE WAYS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN. BUT MY SENSE IS WE ARE LOOKING AT A NOVEMBER ELECTION. FRAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK? IT IS IN THE PRIME MINISTER'S POLITICAL INTEREST TO HAVE IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE ON SEPTEMBER 19, BUT THERE IS AN ISSUE OF FAIRNESS FOR EVERYONE TO CAMPAIGN. I WANT TO HEAR WHO HAS A PLAN FOR THE FUTURE AND IN SOME WAYS THIS OUTBREAK IS QUITE FORTUITOUS, HAPPENING THE SIDE OF THE ELECTION RATHER THAN IMMEDIATELY AFTER. SO WE CAN DEBATE WHAT THE NEXT SCENARIO SHOULD BE AND WHAT WE ARE PREPARED TO ACCEPT IN TERMS OF LOCKDOWNS AND BORDER CONTROLS OR A DIFFERENT SORT OF SYSTEM. BUT I THINK WITHIN A MONTH IS MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME TO HAVE THAT DEBATE. EFESO, HOW DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT ARE HANDLING THIS LATEST OUTBREAK? I THINK THEY HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING. THE CHALLENGE IS, AS A SOCIETY, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE WERE PARTICULARLY READY. PEOPLE HAVE FOUND A ROUTINE; WE HAVE ALL BEEN TO LEVEL 1. IN AUCKLAND YOU HAD REPORTS OF PEOPLE GOING TO THE BEACH. I UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE WILL BE FEELING, 'HERE GO MY FREEDOMS AGAIN.' BUT WE'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE AT WAR WITH THIS VIRUS, AND WE HAVE TO TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS, TAKE THE ADVICE SO WE CAN GET OVER THE TOP OF THIS. I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING. WE HEARD FROM MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS WHO IS TAKING RESPONSIBILITY. BUT I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN REAL FAILURES AS FAR AS THE PUBLIC SERVICE IS CONCERNED AND WHETHER PEOPLE AT THE BORDERS HAVE BEEN TESTED. THAT IS WHERE THE FAILURE HAS BEEN. IT IS QUITE EXTRAORDINARY, FRAN, GIVEN WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH AND THE COLLECTIVE SACRIFICES OF THE TEAM OF FIVE MILLION THAT PEOPLE ON THE FRONTLINE WERE NOT BEING REGULARLY TESTED FOR COVID-19? IT IS A SHOCKING FAILURE AT GOVERNMENT LEVEL. WE FOUND OUT PEOPLE COMING THROUGH THE BORDERS THAT WE WERE NOT GETTING SOCIAL DISTANCING. THEY PUT IN STRINGENCIES AROUND THAT AND SET UP QUARANTINE FACILITIES WHEN PEOPLE COULD NOT BE TRUSTED TO SELF ISOLATE IN THEIR OWN ROOM. LOOK, PEOPLE JUST DON'T FALL IN. WE NEED COMPULSION. IT IS A SAD THING TO SAY. BUT WE ARE FAIRLY COMPLACENT AS A NATION. WE LET THIS VIRUS GET AWAY, COLLECTIVELY. IT DOES NOT LET THE GOVERNMENT OFF THE HOOK AND IT DOES NOT LET DOCTOR BLOOMFIELD OFF THE HOOK. I DO NOT THINK THEY SHOULD BE FIRED BUT WE DO NEED TO STRAIGHTEN UP FAST. WE ALSO NEED TO LOOK AT NEW FORMS OF ELECTRONIC TRACING, LIKE TAIWAN IS DOING. U.S. HEALTH PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO TAIWAN FOR NO REASON. WE NEED TO GO TO BEST IN CLASS AND STOP BEING DAD'S ARMY. EFESO, DO YOU FEEL COMPLACENCY HAS SET IN? YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF NEW ZEALANDERS WHO HAD NOT EVEN DOWNLOADED THE COVID-19 APP, LET ALONE USING IT REGULARLY AHEAD OF THIS OUTBREAK. I THINK WE HAD BECOME COMPLACENT A LITTLE BIT. IT CONCERNS ME THAT WHEN AUCKLAND WENT INTO LEVEL 3 THEY HAD PEOPLE RUNNING OFF TO THE BACH. WHAT WE'VE GOT TO DO IS TAKE UP THESE CHALLENGES. IF IT'S FACE COVERINGS... WE KNOW AS A NATION, IF WE ARE THE WHANAU OF FIVE MILLION, I'VE BEEN CALLING IT, THEN WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THE PRECAUTIONS NECESSARY TO KEEP EVERYBODY SAFE. IT IS PART OF THE NATIONAL PSYCHE THAT PEOPLE JUST WANT TO BE SET FREE A BIT. IN THE LAST BIT THAT WHENA TALKED ABOUT, WE ARE SEEING RELATIONSHIPS CHALLENGED. ALL OF THOSE SERVICES NEED TO BE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE SO THEY CAN GET THROUGH THESE NEXT STEPS. FRAN, HOW HAVE YOU RATED THE OPPOSITION'S RESPONSE TO THIS OUTBREAK? FIVE. I THINK THEY HAVE SPREAD MISINFORMATION. I DON'T THINK THAT WAS THEIR ROLE. I WAS PLEASED TO SEE SHANE RETI EMERGE THIS WEEK. VERY SOUND IN HIS COMMENTS. VERY EXPERIENCE MEDIC. WE NEED MORE OF THAT. THE OPPOSITION HAS REALLY BEEN QUITE AWFUL, WITH THE UNDERMINING OF MICHELLE BOAG, YOU CAN'T WASH THAT AWAY. IT ALL HAPPENED. JUDITH COLLINS IS UNFORTUNATELY COMING OFF A PRETTY HEAVY WICKET, FRANKLY, AND IT IS NOT NECESSARILY HER FAULT. NATIONAL NEEDS TO LOOK AT ITSELF COLLECTIVELY. WE'LL PAUSE THERE AND RETURN TO OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. AND THEN, THE AUSTRALIAN STATE OF VICTORIA HAS BEEN BATTLING TO CONTROL A CORONAVIRUS RESURGENCE FOR WEEKS. WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THAT EXPERIENCE? * YOU'RE BACK WITH Q+A, AND OUR PANEL, EFESO COLLINS, AUCKLAND COUNCILLOR, AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN, NZME HEAD OF BUSINESS. EFESO, WE HAVE HEARD FROM BOTH JUDITH COLLINS AND CHRIS HIPKINS THIS MORNING THAT LABOUR AND NATIONAL WOULD CONTINUE WITH AN ELIMINATION STRATEGY. IS IT FEASIBLE THAT EVERY TIME WE HAVE A COVID-19 OUTBREAK, KEEPING IN MIND WE HAVE NO IDEA WHEN A VACCINE WILL BE AVAILABLE, THAT WE KEEP ON GOING INTO A LOCKDOWN? THAT'S THE QUESTION WE HAVE TO ANSWER. LOOK AT THE SWEDEN EXAMPLE. THEY'VE GOT MAJOR CHALLENGES WITH ALMOST 6000 PEOPLE DYING. WE WON'T LAST GOING TO LOCKDOWN EACH TIME WE HAVE AN OUTBREAK. SO WE'VE GOT TO GET THAT MEASURE RIGHT. BUT WE ARE AT WAR WITH THIS VIRUS. AND THE IMMEDIATE ANSWER ON ONE HAND IS NOT JUST TRADE AND GETTING BUSINESSES UP, WE NEED THE HEALTH PROFESSIONALS ` WHO WROTE A LETTER THIS WEEK TO POLITICIANS SAYING DON'T POLITICISE THIS ARGUMENT ` WE HAVE GOT TO GET THE BALANCE RIGHT. WE CAN'T GO INTO LOCKDOWN EACH TIME. AND WE'RE STARTING TO FEEL THAT. COS THERE'S A MEANER SIDE TO OUR SOCIETY, WHICH IS PEOPLE GOING ONLINE ATTACKING A SOUTH AUCKLAND FAMILY WHO THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN HAVE CONTRACTED CORONAVIRUS. WHAT DO WE DO IF WE DON'T GO INTO A LOCKDOWN EVERY TIME THERE'S AN OUTBREAK, EFESO? SIR DAVID SKEGG SPOKE WITH HIS HONG KONG COUNTERPART, AND THE HEALTH OFFICIALS ARE SAYING IT'S IMPORTANT YOU HAVE FACE COVERINGS. WE HAVE TO INCREASE TESTING. WE SAW TESTING STATIONS CLOSE; NOW POP-UP TESTING STATIONS ARE OPENING UP IN PLACES WE HAD ORIGINAL TESTING STATIONS LIKE IN OTARA AND MANGERE. WE HAVE TO ENCOURAGE SCIENTISTS AND OUR RESEARCH INSTITUTIONS TO CHASE THIS VACCINE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. FRAN, DAVID SEYMOUR SAYS ELIMINATION AND LOCKDOWN PROCEDURE SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK. WHAT DO YOU THINK? I THINK IT DOES WORK. YES, WE HAVE HAD A FLARE-UP. BUT DO WE WANT TO BE LIKE SPAIN, NEW YORK? I WOULD RATHER THAT WE OPTED TO BE LIKE SINGAPORE, LIKE SOUTH KOREA AND TAIWAN, WHO WHEN AN OUTBREAK DOES OCCUR, THAT THEY ACTUALLY DO CHASE IT HARD. BUT ALSO THAT THEY USE ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES. THE MINISTER HIMSELF ISN'T USING THE APP. WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS HAVE TECHNOLOGIES THAT TELL YOU IMMEDIATELY WHO HAS BEEN IN CONTACT WITH WHO. AND THERE ARE THOSE TECHNOLOGIES OUT THERE. LEARN FROM BEST IN CLASS. WE HAVE TO STEP UP, WE HAVE TO GET OVER NONSENSE ABOUT PRIVACY AND WE HAVE TO GO HARD AND DO THE BEST WE CAN. I THINK IT WILL BECOME ENDEMIC WORLDWIDE AND WE HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO LIVE WITH THIS VIRUS, BUT WE ARE NOT THERE YET. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW PARTICULAR INDUSTRIES CAN WORK SAFELY EVEN AT HALF PACE. FOR INSTANCE, WHY NOT ALLOW A BUTCHER ALONG WITH A GREENGROCER NEXT TO THE CORNER STORE IN A LOCAL AREA RATHER THAN MAKING PEOPLE GO TO SUPERMARKETS ACROSS TOWN. ALL THIS SORT OF STUFF. THERE NEEDS TO BE A DISCUSSION AROUND THAT. FRAN, FROM A BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE, WHO WILL BE HARDEST HIT BY THIS LATEST LOCKDOWN? CLEARLY, SMALL BUSINESS, HOSPITALITY, WHICH WAS JUST GETTING OFF ITS FEET. NEW ZEALANDERS ARE NOT GETTING AROUND THE COUNTRY, SO TOURISM. BUT A LOT OF AUCKLANDERS GOT OUT IN THOSE 11 OR 12 HOURS AHEAD OF LOCKDOWN. I THINK THAT BEHAVIOUR IS APPALLING. BECAUSE THEY COULD HAVE POTENTIALLY TAKEN THE VIRUS ELSEWHERE. WE NEED TO SEE BIG BUSINESS, CONSTRUCTION, CRL, ALL THESE TYPES OF ACTIVITIES ABLE TO CONTINUE. ADMITTEDLY, IT WON'T BE AT FULL PRODUCTION LEVEL. BUT WE NEED TO HAVE VARIOUS MODES FOR WHAT LOCKDOWN WE ARE IN. THE BIG THING IS TO GO HARD AT THE BORDER, TO TEST AND TRACE. SOME OF THE COMMENTS THE MINISTER MADE EARLIER SUGGESTED THE OPTICS AROUND JUST HOW MUCH TESTS WE ACTUALLY HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY, HOW MANY MASKS WE HAVE IN THE COUNTRY, AREN'T REALLY THAT GOOD. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN THE COVID-19 STATS THAT GO UP, WE SAY WHAT THE NATIONAL STOCKPILE IS. TELL US THE NUMBERS. BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF OBFUSCATION BEEN HAPPENING. EFESO, WE KNOW YOU HAVE PERSONALLY BEEN IN TOUCH WITH THE SOUTH AUCKLAND FAMILY AT THE CENTRE OF THE LATEST OUTBREAK. THEY'VE BEEN SUBJECTED TO SOME HORRIBLE COMMENTS ONLINE. HOW IS THE FAMILY DOING? MY CONTACT WITH THEM HAS BEEN THROUGH A FAMILY FRIEND. THEY ARE DOING OK. THEY ARE AWARE THERE HAS BEEN ABUSE ONLINE, BUT I HAVE RECEIVED A LOT OF INFORMATION FROM PEOPLE SAYING THAT IS NOT US AND THEY WANT TO REACH OUT AND SUPPORT THE FAMILY. BUT IT GOES TO SHOW THERE IS A LEVEL OF FRUSTRATION IN THE COMMUNITY. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE CRAZIES WHO HIDE BEHIND THEIR KEYBOARDS AND SAY NASTY THINGS. BUT IN THE MAIN, THE WHANAU OF FIVE MILLION ARE GETTING TOGETHER AND SUPPORTING EVERYONE. WE WANT NEW ZEALAND TO CONTINUE DOWN THE PATH AND BE SUPPORTIVE OF EACH OTHER. CAN I JUMP IN THERE AND SAY THAT I THINK THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THAT 'EXPOSE HATRED NEW ZEALAND' SITE ON FACEBOOK, THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN DOWN AND THEY SHOULD BE CHARGED WITH DEFAMATION. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND INSIGHTS. WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT. THAT IS COUNCILLOR EFESO COLLINS AND NZME'S HEAD OF BUSINESS FRAN O'SULLIVAN. GIVING YOU BOTH A VIRTUAL ELBOW BUMP AT THE MOMENT. SO HOW QUICKLY CAN NEW ZEALAND GET ON TOP OF THIS COVID OUTBREAK? WE'LL GO TO MELBOURNE NEXT, WHERE SOME EARLY MISTAKES WERE MADE IN THE EFFORT TO STAMP OUT THEIR SECOND WAVE. A KIWI SCIENTIST LIVING IN VICTORIA HAS SOME ADVICE FOR US HERE. * THE AUSTRALIAN STATE OF VICTORIA HAS REPORTED A MAN IN HIS 20s HAS DIED OF CORONAVIRUS, THE YOUNGEST AUSTRALIAN TO FALL VICTIM TO COVID-19. THERE WERE FOUR NEW DEATHS RECORDED IN VICTORIA'S LAST DAILY UPDATE, BRINGING THE TOTAL NUMBER OF THOSE KILLED BY THE VIRUS THERE TO 293. BUT HEALTH EXPERTS ARE HOPING THE STATE IS PAST THE PEAK OF ITS SECOND WAVE. NEW ZEALAND-BORN EPIDEMIOLOGIST AND PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST PROFESSOR TONY BLAKELY TOOK UP A JOB AT MELBOURNE UNIVERSITY LAST YEAR. HE'S WITH US THIS MORNING. MORENA. DID YOU EXPECT NEW ZEALAND WOULD HAVE A SECOND WAVE OF COVID-19 AT SOME POINT? THERE WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE SOMETHING AT SOME POINT. IT WAS UNFORTUNATE TO SEE IT HAPPEN SO SOON. 102 DAYS. BUT YOU HAVE HAD A GOOD 102 DAYS AND IF YOU CAN GET ON TOP OF THIS AND STAMP IT OUT AND GET BACK THAT WAY OF FUNCTIONING, IT IS BETTER DOING THAT IN THE LONG RUN FOR HEALTH AND ECONOMIC REASONS THAN TRYING TO HAVE A SUPPRESSION STRATEGY, GIVEN NEW ZEALAND HAS 1000KM OF WATER IN EVERY DIRECTION AND BORDER CONTROLS. DO YOU THINK NEW ZEALANDERS WERE PERHAPS TOO COMPLACENT? WELL, WE ARE ALL SAYING THAT. WE WERE TOO COMPLACENT IN MELBOURNE WHEN WE STARTED THE SECOND WAVE. IT IS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE AROUND THE WORLD. IT IS A REALITY. DAVID SKEGG'S INTERVIEW IN RADIO NEW ZEALAND HAS GOT A LOT OF TRACTION, AND IF NEW ZEALAND WAS TO AVOID GETTING INTO LOCKDOWN AGAIN IT WOULD REQUIRE A HIGHER DEGREE OF NON-COMPLACENCY. IT WOULD REQUIRE WEARING MASKS THE WHOLE TIME, WHICH IS NOT SOMETHING THAT I'D PREVIOUSLY SAID AN ELIMINATION COUNTRY WOULD HAVE TO DO. SO IF THE VIGILANCE IS GOING TO BE LIFTED TO A LEVEL WHERE YOU CAN DEAL WITH OUTBREAKS WITHOUT GOING INTO LOCKDOWN, IT WILL REQUIRE A CHANGE OF CULTURAL NORMS IN NEW ZEALAND. BOTH THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION AND THE GOVERNMENT ARE INTENT ON PURSUING AN ELIMINATION STRATEGY. BUT THE OTHER SIDE TO THE ELIMINATION COIN IS THE FACT THAT EVERY TIME THERE IS A COVID-19 OUTBREAK, WE NEED TO GO INTO LOCKDOWN. THAT IS THE MOST OBVIOUS WAY OF DOING IT BECAUSE WE KNOW THE LOCKDOWNS WORK. IT IS PURE LOGIC SEPARATING PEOPLE AND IT STOPS THE VIRUS TRANSMITTING. AT THIS POINT IN TIME I THINK IT IS THE MOST OBVIOUS WAY TO DEAL WITH THE VIRUS INCURSION. HOW LONG IT NEEDS TO GO AT STAGE 3 IN AUCKLAND IS MOOT. BUT TO TRY AND REDUCE THE DEGREE AND LENGTH OF LOCKDOWN FOR THE NEXT VIRUS INCURSION, THE CONTACT TRACING NEEDS TO BE PAR EXCELLENCE. WE'VE SEEN THIS COMPARING PLACES AROUND THE WORLD. THE QUICKER YOU FIND THE FIRST PERSON, THE QUICKER YOU FIND THEIR CONTACTS, THE QUICKER YOU FIND THE CONTACTS OF THE CONTACTS. AND AT THE SAME TIME THE TESTING NEEDS TO HAPPEN REALLY RAPIDLY IN TERMS OF GETTING THE RESULTS BACK. AND THAT CAN BE DONE BY AN EXCEPTIONALLY WELL TRAINED WORKFORCE BUT THEN AUGMENTED, USING SOUTH KOREA AS AN EXAMPLE, AUGMENTED WITH GOOD APP TECHNOLOGY. IT IS PROVING DIFFICULT FOR MOST COUNTRIES TO GET A DECENT APP. SOUTH KOREA ALSO USE YOUR VISA RECORDS AND CCTV. YOU ALSO HAVE A POPULATION THERE WHO ARE MORE COMPLIANT AT BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO. THESE ARE CHALLENGING SITUATIONS FOR A COUNTRY LIKE NEW ZEALAND THAT HAS ACHIEVED ELIMINATION AS TO HOW YOU DO IT. HOW DIFFERENT IS NEW ZEALAND'S SECOND OUTBREAK COMPARED TO THE OUTBREAK IN VICTORIA RIGHT NOW? AND WHAT LESSONS ARE THERE FROM VICTORIA? THE ONE IN VICTORIA, IT WAS HAPPENING WHEN THERE WAS STILL LOW-GRADE TRANSMISSION HAPPENING. IT WAS NOT AS OBVIOUS WHEN IT STARTED. THE ONE IN NEW ZEALAND STARTED FROM A ZERO-BASE. IT WAS OBVIOUS. THE NEXT DIFFERENCE IS THE VICTORIA ONE WENT THROUGH A NIGHT-STAFF PERSON TO SECURITY GUARDS AND INTO AN INNER PART OF MELBOURNE WHICH HAS A HIGH DEGREE OF MIGRANT COMMUNITIES AND LOTS OF FAMILIES AT A TIME OF YEAR FOR THAT CULTURAL GROUP WHEN THEY WERE DOING SOME MEETING UP WHICH THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DOING, AND THEN IT INCREASED WITH SUPER SPREADERS. IT LOOKS LIKE THE AUCKLAND ONE IS WELL CONTAINED. THE NEXT DIFFERENCE WAS WE WERE NOT AS AGGRESSIVE AS NEW ZEALAND BECAUSE WE WERE FOLLOWING AN ELIMINATION/ SUPPRESSION STRATEGY. SO NEW ZEALAND HAS GONE HARD INTO STAGE 3 IN AUCKLAND. I SUPPORTED IT AT THE TIME, BUT I THINK IN RETROSPECT WHAT MELBOURNE DID WAS A MISTAKE. WE PUT CONTROLS AROUND DIFFERENT POSTCODES. TO GET AHEAD OF IT IN MELBOURNE WE SHOULD HAVE JUST GONE STRAIGHT FOR LOCKDOWN STAGE 3 FOR THE ENTIRE MELBOURNE AREA. SO WE HAVE GONE MORE SLOWLY. IT WAS NOT NECESSARILY WRONG. WE WERE LEARNING AT THE TIME. ALSO THERE WAS THE IDEA OF MORE OF A SUPPRESSION RATHER THAN ELIMINATION STRATEGY. SO QUITE A LOT OF DIFFERENCES THERE. THERE IS STILL NO SOURCE FOR THIS CLUSTER IN NEW ZEALAND. WHERE DO YOU THINK IT MIGHT HAVE COME FROM? THERE WERE SUGGESTIONS THAT IT COULD HAVE COME THROUGH ON A SURFACE OF PRODUCTS THAT WERE BEING KEPT IN A COOLSTORE. IS SURFACE TRANSMISSION LIKELY OR DO YOU THINK IT IS LIKELY TO HAVE COME FROM ELSEWHERE? I THINK IT IS UNLIKELY STILL. BUT AS TIME GOES ON YOU DO WONDER. THE FACT THAT IT LOOKS LIKE YOU HAVE YOUR ARMS AROUND THIS OUTBREAK SO QUICKLY COMING FROM THE AMERICOLD SITE, GIVEN THAT YOU GOT YOUR ARMS AROUND IT SO QUICKLY, IT DOES MAKE YOU WONDER IF IT'S COME FROM A SURFACE THERE. COS IF IT HAD BEEN TRANSFERRED TO THOSE WORKERS, WHO THEN GENERATED AN OUTBREAK, THE UPSTREAM CASES DON'T SEEM TO BE HAPPENING. I STILL THINK IT IS UNLIKELY BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. IF - AND I UNDERSCORE THAT - IF IT CAME THROUGH ON A SURFACE OF FROZEN GOODS, THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR THE ELIMINATION STRATEGY IF THE VIRUS CAN GET IN LIKE THAT. BUT I STILL THINK IT IS UNLIKELY. I THINK IT IS PROBABLY A BORDER INCURSION. SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED AT THE BORDER AND IT HAS GONE STRAIGHT TO ONE OF THESE WORKERS AT THE AMERICOLD FACTORY AND STARTED A CLASSIC OUTBREAK THERE. BUT YOU STILL HAVE NOT FOUND HOW IT GOT THROUGH THE BORDER. WITH THE SCRUTINY THAT HAS BEEN APPLIED AS A RESULT OF THIS OUTBREAK, IT HAS BEEN REVEALED THAT BORDER WORKERS HAVE NOT BEEN REGULAR TESTED. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT? I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THAT. IT WAS A BIG CALL TO SAY THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN TESTED REGULARLY. IT SEEMED TO ME QUITE A BIG ASK. WHY IS THAT? I ASSUME WHAT PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR IS THIS ENTIRE WORKFORCE IS TESTED, SAY, ONCE A WEEK. IS THAT UNREASONABLE? IF WE ARE PREPARED TO LOCKDOWN A COUNTRY... THIS IS IT. YOU MAY BE RIGHT. I'M DEMONSTRATING MY EVOLUTION OF THOUGHT HERE, JACK. IF THERE'S 6000 OR 10,000 PEOPLE ON THE BORDER WORKFORCE, IT WOULD TAKE UP A LOT OF THE TESTING RESOURCE. BUT MAYBE THAT IS WHAT IS NECESSARY. BUT THE FIRST THING TO DO IS WORK OUT HOW THE OUTBREAK GOT IN. IF IT GOT IN THROUGH THE FROZEN FOOD, WHICH I THINK IS UNLIKELY, THEN THAT CHANGES THE WEIGHTING OF THAT STRATEGY. IF IT GOT IN THROUGH THE BORDER WORKFORCE, THEN PERHAPS TESTING THEM EVERY WEEK. THE OTHER THING IS I'M ASSUMING THEY'RE DOING THE PCR TESTING ` THAT'S THE NASAL SWAB TO FIND THE ACTIVE INFECTION AT THE MOMENT. BUT GIVEN THAT IT MAY HAVE COME IN TWO OR THREE WEEKS AGO, I ASSUME THEY'RE ALSO DOING SEROLOGY TESTING TO SEE WHICH MEMBERS OF THE BORDER WORKFORCE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED IN THE PAST. BUT IF YOU WERE DOING REGULAR TESTING ON A WEEKLY BASIS, IT WOULD BE THE PCR TESTING. THE PCR TESTING'S NOT PERFECT. THIS VIRUS IS VERY CLEVER. 20% OF PEOPLE WHO HAD THE INFECTION WILL STILL TEST NEGATIVE BECAUSE THEY ARE EARLY OR LATER IN THIS STAGE OF INFECTION AND IT IS NOT PICKING IT UP, OR THERE IS A MISTAKE IN THE WAY THE TEST IS DONE. SO EVEN WITH A TESTING STRATEGY LIKE THAT, YOU WOULD HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT 20% OF THE TRULY INFECTED PEOPLE MAY BE MISSED. 10% OR 20% OF THEM. THIS VIRUS IS VERY CLEVER. WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR EXPERTISE. THANK YOU. PLENTY OF FEEDBACK COMING IN ON WHETHER THE ELECTION SHOULD BE DELAYED. LISA KAUKAU WRITES ON FACEBOOK, 'NO IT SHOULDN'T BE. THERE IS NO REASON AT THIS STAGE TO DELAY IT. WEAR A MASK, GLOVES AND WASH YOUR HANDS.' DAVE DESNAP SAYS, 'MAINTAINING DEMOCRACY IS PARAMOUNT, AND THIS COVID OUTBREAK HAS PUT PAID TO A FAIR AND EQUITABLE CAMPAIGN.' PAULA STEPHENSON THINKS IT SHOULD BE DELAYED. SHE SAYS COVID IS DISTRACTING FROM REAL POLITICS. DR JENNIFER LEES-MARSHMENT ASKS ON TWITTER, 'WHAT IS MORE DEMOCRATIC ` GIVING PARTIES MORE CHANCE TO MARKET (DESIGN AND COMMUNICATE) THEIR NEW PRODUCTS, OR GIVING VOTERS THEIR RIGHT TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES SOONER RATHER THAN LATER? ALSO ON TWITTER, 'IF YOU CAN LINE UP AT COUNTDOWN AND A BOTTLE STORE 'YOU CAN LINE UP AT A POLLING BOOTH.' WE WILL CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ONLINE. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I A KOUTOU PANUI. THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THANKS TO THE Q+A TEAM. MARAE IS NEXT. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9 O'CLOCK. 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