- Korohi te manu i te po, korohi te manu i te ao, takiri mai ana te ata i runga i te toi huarewa o nga ariki. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. This week on The Hui ` released prisoners are given a one-off grant of $350 to restart their life on the outside. But are they set up to fail? - How can you have freedom with $350 on release? - It's easier to lock the people up than it is to try and keep them out and employed. - Plus, we sit down with Minister of Corrections and Police Mark Mitchell to discuss prisoners, recidivism and rehabilitation. - I've got a very big focus on trades training and giving them real-life skills so that when they leave prison, they've got a much better chance of going into some meaningful employment. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024 - Nga manu whititua kua wehe ki roto i nga iwi, nga mate o te wa. Haere mai, haere. Tatou kei te pito ora, tihewa mauriora, and welcome back to The Hui. You do the crime, you do the time ` but for recently released prisoners, the price of freedom can come at a high cost. Life on the outside is described as 'the silent sentence'. Challenges like finding a job and somewhere to live ` at a time when ex-inmates are at their most vulnerable ` make the risk of re-offending high. Reporter Ruwani Perera explains the work being done to support them. - PERERA: Cassius Kukutai is sowing the seeds of a better future for him and his whanau. - I love being here. It's good to be around native plants. - Te Whangai Trust native nursery is set amongst 36ha near the Firth of Thames and is giving former prisoners like Cassius a second chance. - I feel like I'm a whole man instead of a half man. - He's only too aware of the difficulties facing ex-prisoners. Cassius left jail 20 years ago after serving a five-year sentence for aggravated robbery. - I had nothing to come out to. It's no good if you just send them out there and there's no support after that. All they had was, 'Here's $350, and away you go.' - The amount of cash Cassius got two decades ago to restart life on the outside is exactly the same as the grant released prisoners got last week. Upon their release, former inmates receive a one-off $350 grant that's designed to help them with their initial setup costs on the outside. That figure hasn't changed in 33 years. Over that time, many experts have recommended that the Steps to Freedom grant be raised, as it falls well short of covering essential costs. Unlike other benefits, the grant is not indexed to inflation or wage growth. - Cost of living's gone up, and yet this amount has stayed stagnant for 30 years. - Tui Ah Loo is CEO of Te Pa, a kaupapa Maori organisation that helps reintegrate recently released prisoners back into society. She calls the meagre payment 'barbaric'. - How can you have freedom with $350 on release? You have to pay for a birth certificate, get a driver's license, medical costs, food and clothing costs and accommodation, phone... It all racks up. That's $1000 right there to be able to transact in society. - How far does $350 go? - It'll only last you not even one week, especially with everything going up too. And then after that, you've got nothing. - Why do you think there's been no appetite to increase the grant? - I'm not really sure, but I think it could be perceived as an incentive. It's actually not an incentive. It is something they need to reduce recidivism. We've had lots of instances where our people have said, 'It's too hard here. I just want to go back inside. 'I get three meals a day, a roof over my head, a warm bed.' And it breaks my heart when it happens. - We've come across guys and their only option is to go and reoffend because they haven't got accommodation, they haven't got any resources. So as a community, that's something we need to be ashamed of. - Adrienne Dalton runs Te Whangai Trust, the charity that's upskilled hundreds of ex-inmates like Cassius and got them into work so that they don't have to rely on a benefit. - They're paying tax and they're building their self-esteem, and their family have really good role models to be proud of. And that's really important. Their kids have seen them in jail, and now they see them in the community, contributing. - Last year, more than 8000 people received the Steps to Freedom grant when they left prison. - ...no support network... - Adrienne agrees the one-off cash injection isn't sufficient for getting back on your feet. Do you think that former prisoners are set up to fail? - Former prisoners who come out have to have a really determined mindset to counter the obstacles. So unless we have a transition and have support mechanisms to stop that that revolving door, we are setting them up to fail. And money doesn't fix something solely. You've got to have transition, you have to have a process, and people have to go through that process in their own time. - In 2022, Adrienne was awarded a New Zealand Order of Merit, recognising the work she and her husband, Gary, have done rehabilitating offenders. - We're hugely dependent on philanthropic trusts to help us bridge the gap between what we can generate ourselves and what we need to pay everyone a living wage. - The couple, in their 70s, are struggling financially themselves, driven to keep going by the need they see. - We're ashamed of our social statistics. So as communities, we have to be brave enough to create systemic change. Otherwise, we just have a compounding social deficit that will socially and fiscally bankrupt us as a nation. Financially, we can't continue this. We have to have support. - After 18 years of doing it alone, they're finally hearing the right noises from the Minister of Social Development, Louise Upston. - I honestly believe that this government have got the mandate to support this. - Did you think that at the time of the election? - No, I didn't, to be honest, and I've been really pleasantly surprised, and I'm really excited about the possibilities. - In a response to The Hui, The Minister of MSD and Employment acknowledged the Steps to Freedom payment hadn't been increased in decades and says... ...adding that MSD also offers other payments, like those to help with emergency housing costs. Even so, finding affordable and long-term housing is yet another challenge beyond the prison gate. - The government just announced the other day that whanau with children in emergency housing will go to the top of the list. I endorse that, but that means our people get pushed further to the bottom of the list. - Recognising that having a place to stay is crucial to reducing the risk of reoffending, Te Pa also offer a range of temporary emergency housing options upon release. - Housing is one of the biggest linchpins that informs and underpins successful reintegration, and we don't have enough of it, and so therefore our people are forced into boarding houses, into motels. And some of these accommodations are not fit for purpose, but when there's nothing, what choice do you have? You cannot reintegrate a prisoner into society unless you heal, enable them to restore and then transform themselves. - Every life that you see transition into a blossoming and contributing individual is huge. - After experiencing the stigma of serving time for most of his life, at 59, Cassius has found that working amongst nature has done wonders for restoring his mana. - It's so hard to try to get up from all those put-downs, but this place here has done a lot for me. It has just lifted my self-esteem, my confidence. This place here's given me that chance, and that's the reason why I'm here. - Stay with us on The Hui. Whai muri i nga whakatairanga ` we speak with the Minister of Corrections and the Minister of Police, the Honourable Mark Mitchell. Kia ora mai ano. Crime and punishment were two big themes during the election campaign. So I spoke to the man who is in charge of both of those portfolios for the coalition government ` The Minister of Corrections and Police, the Honourable Mark Mitchell. Minister, tena koe ` welcome to the programme. - Tena koe. - Thank you very much for your time. - Thank you for having me on. - I just wanted to start, if I could, by following on from the story that we've just played and, in particular, the Steps to Freedom grant. Now, I know it's not your ministerial portfolio responsibility, but do you agree with the idea of raising that grant to $1000, particularly in helping the transition for those in Corrections out into the public? - Look, I think that, like you've just raised, that is an MSD decision. I'm pretty sure that the minister, Louise Upston, has indicated that she is seeking advice on that from officials and that she recognises what the issue is there. She also highlighted the fact that it's important that there is other support that's available to our prisoners when they are actually making that exit from the Corrections system and reintegrating back into our communities again. - Why are Maori prisoner rates so high, do you think? - So, (SIGHS) what I feel about this is that we are now two, three, four generations into social dysfunction, whether it be gangs, whether it be a criminal lifestyle, whether it's feeling like you're marginalised or on the outside of communities ` that's where a lot of this family harm sits, a lot of the overrepresentation in terms of victimisations and, of course, the overrepresentation of Maori in our criminal justice system and Corrections. And so for us to be serious as a country, to be able to fix that` And I think some of the people that you interviewed that are heavily involved in this area, who` I've got enormous admiration for the work that they're doing, they have highlighted that ` - Mm. - and I agree with them ` is that they've recognised that there's a lot of social harm. To deal with that, we have to go right back into people's lives. We have to be able to use the social investment model, which is us as a country deciding where we invest in people's lives. Do we invest much earlier? Do we stay with them much longer to try and break that intergenerational harm and get them on a track where they can realise the great opportunities that our country has to offer? - And what will your specific strategy be? There was a Maori strategy, as you know ` Hokai Rangi ` - Yep. Yep. - that is in place at the moment. What will your strategy be to address the high rates of Maori in prison? - So, as the incoming minister, to reinforce and continue to develop my own personal relationships with iwi and iwi leadership and hapu leadership in terms of the engagement that they want to have in our Corrections system to help rehabilitate and reintegrate prisoners, Maori prisoners, as they come out of the Corrections system. I've got a very big focus on trades training and giving them real-life skills so that when they leave prison, they've got a much better chance of going into some meaningful employment where they're getting paid well. We heard him saying that he's got some self-esteem, he feels valued, and that's exactly the pathway that I'm going down in terms of what we're delivering in Corrections. - Can you`? I mean, the Hokai Rangi strategy talks about trying to reduce the rate of Maori in prison, recidivism rates and the like to be of a similar rate to that of non-Maori and the non-Maori population. So, 37% of people proceeded against by police, 45% of people convicted and 52% of people in prison are Maori. Can you commit to decreasing those rates by the end of this political term, and if so, what will that number be? - Well, we want to decrease all rates. So we want to decrease the social harm, the victimisations; we want to reduce the serious, violent retail crime that we see. - Yep. - We want to start to dismantle the gangs and suppress the gangs, especially those gang members with families ` try and get them out of the gangs, rehabilitated and back in... OK` - ...to join society. But the fact is this ` the police and the Corrections do not get to choose who is out there offending and causing the harm. They've got no control over that. They have to respond and they have to deal with it. And so we go right back to what I was saying originally ` we need to use that social investment model. We need to go right back into people's lives. - OK. I understand that` - We have to keep them on a positive pathway instead of coming into our criminal justice system. - I understand that, but this government is a government looking for outcomes, right? - Absolutely. - And a clear outcome would be a number by which it will commit to decrease the rates of Maori in prison ` and in particular, that high rate of 52% of Maori who are in prison. So what will you commit to? What's a target? What will the figure be by the end of this political term? - So, we are developing targets, and at the moment, we're going through work in the justice system to develop some targets that we want to set, because we do feel that actually the public service needs to have targets. We need to set targets as a government so that we can actually measure our success and what we're actually achieving. But the best way to stop that pipeline of people coming into our criminal justice system is that social investment model, is going right back in their lives and seeing where we make an intervention, where we make the investment as a country to actually stop them coming into the criminal justice system in the beginning. - The Hapai Hapaitia te Oranga Tangata Safe and Effective Justice Programme noted, quote, 'a common-purpose, public confidence and strong Treaty-based partnerships with Maori were identified 'as necessary for a foundation to sustain an effort 'that would be required over successive terms of government 'to have an effective justice programme and system.' Do you support that? - Oh, I agree. I agree entirely. - OK, so what does that Treaty-based partnership look like, then, if we have a government that seems to be questioning the place of the Treaty? - Well, it's got to be highly flexible, and it's got to be a genuine partnership between, for example, Corrections and Police, iwi leadership, hapu leadership. And I think that that is happening. The talks that I'm having with iwi leaders that I meet with is, quite simply, 'We cannot do this without your leadership. 'We cannot do this without you putting a line in the sand also.' And saying that there's been too much intergenerational harm. We don't want our people in the gangs. We want them out of the gangs. We don't want the next generation coming through. And that's a partnership with central government, with iwi, with local government, with community groups ` that's a whole-of community response in terms of making sure we all have a moral obligation to do the best that we can to try and break that intergenerational sort of dysfunction and social isolation that creates a lot of this offending. - OK. Just so I'm clear ` you do support Hokai Rangi in its current form and structure? - Well, I think that any programme, you have to continually review and improve... - What does that look like to you? - ...but I definitely support where` Well, for me ` let me give you an example, is that ` and this is a very practical example ` one of the ladies on the programme` Sorry, I've, um... - Tui. - Tui. So, Tui. Sorry, I only just watched it, so excuse me for that. But she raised a simple issue around a driver's licence. So, we've actually got programmes running at the moment in Corrections to give prisoners as they exit a learner licence, which gives them at least a fighting chance when they come out. Now, as the incoming minister, I've said, 'Can we go away and do some work 'and find out whether or not we can deliver a programme`' which is very difficult ` logistically, it's very hard. But, 'Can we look at a programme where when they exit Corrections, 'they've got something like a heavy vehicles licence 'so they can go straight into a job where they actually driving a truck 'or they're operating heavy machinery?' That to me is a huge enabler. - Mm. Do we have a staffing crisis in our prisons today? - So, we have had a lot of pressure on our frontline Corrections officers, and we have recently changed the recruiting campaign that's been out there on the TV. We've had` - But that doesn't assure, though, you get the increase in numbers you need to` - Well, we are getting the increase in numbers. So we've had` - So why in some instances, then, Minister, do we have`? In some examples where we should have five duty Corrections staff, we only have one or two. Why is that? - Because we have been behind in the numbers, right? But that is changing. We've got the most Corrections officers going through training that we've had for a long time ` it's 153. The latest marketing campaign or recruiting campaign that we did out there has been very effective ` we've had over 2500 applications, the most that we've ever had. I visited Auckland Prison last week. They've got a pipeline of people that are wanting to come in and be recruited to go into there. So there's some very good work being done around recruitment, but I recognise that the system is under enormous pressure. - OK. - Because they have been down on numbers. - In 2020, you said ` in response, I think, to the Electoral (Registration of Sentenced Prisoners) Amendment Bill ` the following quote. 'The best thing, Kelvin, that you can do or that Maoridom can do 'is look at ways that you can get into a young guy's life, 'the young guy back in Gisborne on the East Coast ` how to get into his life with social investment. 'Invest early to get him off track.' Now, you've talked a bit about that earlier. The issue, though, is that frames the conversation and the causes and consequences of offending to an individual concern, rather than a much wider one, which is the importance of whanau, of Maori, of hapu in the process. - But we have to take an individual approach to this. - Yeah, but, see, that's` I mean, the research suggests that's not the right way to do it. In fact, in the US, it's been shown that it demonstrates prisoner disenfranchisement has ripple effects, particularly when you focus on the individual. - Well, but I was talking about social investment there. I mean, I just want to share with you a personal example of when, as a young police officer working on the East Coast in Gisborne, I was called out one night. There was a young guy ` he was 17 years old ` he'd broken into a vehicle and stolen some of the contents. He was a young guy that had dropped out of school; his dad was a member of the Gisborne branch of the Mongrel Mob, and his uncles and everyone else was sort of involved in the Mob in Gisborne. And I said, you know, 'What job are you doing?' And he said, 'I'm unemployed.' - Mm-hm. - And I said, 'But that's not a job.' I said, 'What training, what job are you doing?' He goes, 'That's what my dad does.' And the light bulb came on in my head at that moment, and I realised that he had been born into a family where` it was a gang family where if we'd made investment ` maybe in his Mum, with giving her some additional training, giving her some budgeting skills and things like that; if we'd managed to prise the dad out of the gang... - OK. - ...get him into some meaningful employment, all of a sudden, his outlook looks very different. Government cannot do that by itself. - No. I understand that. - So where is iwi in that conversation? Where are the`? Where's the leadership? - And we'll come back to a bit more of that. You've raised gangs a couple of times, and we'll talk about gangs. We'll talk about that after the break. After the break, stay with us` - Well, they're a big driver of a lot of the harm` - I'm throwing to break, Minister. (LAUGHS) - Sorry, mate. Sorry. - I'm throwing to ads. - Sorry. Yeah. (CHUCKLES) - CHUCKLES: We've got more with the minister Mark Mitchell after this. Kia ora mai ano ` welcome back. We are speaking with the Minister of Corrections, the Minister for Emergency Management and Recovery and, of course, the Minister of Police, the Honourable Mark Mitchell. E te Minita, tena koe. - Tena koe. Thanks, Julian. - Law and order is a big part of the government's approach in this political term; there's tough talk also on crime. Do you think that matches the latest pay offer to police in those negotiations that are happening now? - Yeah. So, look, the reality is I can't talk to that in detail. We are still in good-faith negotiations, and we are at the table in good faith, and Police and the Association are still bargaining. I think there's due to be another meeting this coming Tuesday, and I'll be able to talk to that more once we've got through that good-faith bargaining process. - OK. I'm glad you raised good-faith negotiations. Do you think it was good faith to put an offer to police that you knew was going to be rejected because it was very similar to the previous offer made by the previous government in September last year? - Well, it was an enhanced offer, but, look, at the end of the day, we understand` And I'm sorry ` I can't get into the detail on that because we are in good-faith negotiations. The minute that I start to get into the detail... - Yup. - ...then we'll be talking about the entire negotiation, and I'm not going to go there. The Police and the Association must be given the ability to be able to sit down in good faith and negotiate those details. And there's a lot of them. - OK, sure. Can you understand, though`? Something you said ` 'enhanced' ` but it was` for all intents and purposes, according to those negotiating on behalf of police, was similar. Can you understand, therefore, the reason why they might be a little bit ticked off? - Yeah, well. Absolutely. So, you know` And fully, completely accept that. But we're still at the bargaining table, and we're still there in good faith, and we'll continue to work through that with the association. - OK. You raised gangs in the first part of this interview... - Yeah. - ...so I just wanted to turn to that, if I can. If we ban gang patches, how will we know who is in a gang and who isn't? - Well, it's` To me, that's not a problem. If the gangs disappear from public view, that's a good thing. That's part of the reason why we're banning gang patches. We don't want the public to see gang members out with their patches on, which are designed to do one thing, and that's intimidate. - Doesn't that make it tougher, though, to fight gangs, if you don't know who's in the gang? - Not at all. The police still know who the gang members are. They're gonna have more powers, much tougher powers to be able to deal with them. But in my view` - How do they know? How do they know, Minister? - Well, they've got very good intelligence systems. They're gathering information all the time. They know who's committing the crime. They understand who's involved in the serious, you know, organised criminal groups. But I want them to disappear from public view. I don't want the public to see gangs out in numbers. I don't want them to be exposed to gang members wearing patches, trying to intimidate them. So if the public don't see the gangs anymore, in my view, that's a very good thing. - But one of the issues that arises from that is that you have people who automatically assume someone is a member of a gang family when they aren't. There was an instance at a protest recently where I think you talked to someone assuming that they were a gang whanau because they were a part of that protest, and they weren't; they were just there supporting the protest. Isn't that an issue? - Well, they were there supporting` It was a gang hikoi. - But they're not` they're not a whanau in a gang. So that's the problem, right? - So they're either there as a member of the gang or they're supporting the gang. That's what the hikoi was about. So very clearly I said to them, 'If you are a member of the gang 'and you want some help to get out, then we'll help get out.' One of them said, 'You're assuming that I'm a member of the gang.' And it was not that ` it was the fact that they're on a gang hikoi. So if they are a member of the gang and they want some help to get out, then we'll help them get out. And I stand by that. - All supporting the right for freedom of expression, right? Part of the Bill of Rights ` all supporting the right of people to protest. - Absolutely. - Yeah. - Absolutely got a right to protest. And I went out and I actually, you know, met with the protesters. But I was very clear ` I said to them, 'If you're a member of the gang, this is not good for your families. 'It's terrible. It's deeply destructive.' That's where a lot of the social harm is coming from, these youth offenders are coming from. Make no mistake, Julian ` being a member of a gang is not a good thing. - But what do you say to those... - It's a bad thing. - ...who would say that you are diverting the energy of the police ` that should be going into tougher sentencing, apprehending, focusing on the money and the resource that supports gangs ` by diverting them to looking at uniforms and gang patches? - Well, they do that. They do that. They've had some very successful operations just in the last few weeks. They continue to do that. It's not up to the police in terms of sentencing ` that's obviously for the courts. But I expect the police` We've been very clear, and I've been very clear with the Commissioner in my Letter of Expectation ` we are gonna start policing the gangs hard. They think that they can take over public spaces. They think they can take over public roads. They think they can operate with impunity. They think that they can intimidate and assault members of the public. There's been a loss of respect... - Yeah. - ...for our police officers; there's been a loss of respect for any person in authority, and it's made the public less safe, and it's made our frontline less safe. - Sure. We're quickly running out of time. I just want to raise one last thing. There are parts of the Crimes Act ` Section 98a, for example, or even Section 66(2) ` that allow you to be able to do the work to attack the gangs directly already. Summary Offences Act 1981; Prohibition of Gang insignia on Government Premises Act in 2013, where it said that that could be applied, but not to Kainga Ora. - Well, that` - I'll just keep going ` Arms Act and others. - Yeah, yeah. - So there are those who would say that you already have the legislative requirements... - So, I'm glad you` - ...to attack the gangs; you don't need this. - Well, I'm glad you raised that. So, that legislation that was passed in 2013 that banned gang patches in schools, hospitals and public buildings was brought forward by Todd McClay in Rotorua, where he` currently, at the moment, they've got real gang problems. - Yeah. - And he had gang problems back then, and I actually` He became minister, and I took that bill through for him, and it's been very successful. And so what we're doing is we're extending that from schools, hospitals and public places and public buildings into public spaces. And I think it's going to be very effective. - Yeah. Sure. But the other thing is you have all those other legislative requirements that are there now. - But they don't cover` That legislation only goes so far. - Right. - It doesn't public spaces. - So what about the argument that you're impinging on people's personal rights to freedom of speech? - Well, I'm just` I'm just willing to accept that one. I just think that gangs impinge on` You know, there is a social contract and a social responsibility that if you live in this country, you don't go about assaulting, hurting, intimidating and creating havoc. And if you do, then you're probably going to lose some rights. - Even though you could be breaching international conventions on rights of individuals in public spaces? - Well, we have a Bill of Rights legislation. - Yes. And you could be... - It's important we have that. And that has` And obviously, the gang patch bill has attracted a report on that. But there is legislation that the last government passed in the last Parliament that passed legislation that had Bill of Rights reports against it as well. - Minister, I want to thank you for your time. Really appreciate you being part of the programme... - Thanks, Julian. Thanks. - ...and being with us today. - Thanks for having me on. - Nga mihi nui kia a koe. - Appreciate it. - Now, after Ruwani's story and that interview were filmed, we heard that Te Whangai Trust nursery is now on the brink of closure. Cassius is among staff stood down for two weeks because the Trust can't afford to pay them. We welcome your feedback and story ideas, so email us at... E te iwi, kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Captions by Maeve Kelly and Courtney Sole. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024