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Attitude A Conversation with John Kirwan

ChannelTV One
Date Broadcast Sunday 17 June 2012
Start Time08 : 28
Finish Time08 : 57
Duration29:00
Series2012
Episode14

He’s our newest Knight and a man who understands the highs and lows of life… and depression. In Italy, we step inside the private world of Sir John Kirwan, an intimate conversation and a story of hope. Thousands of men and women have been able to address their own experiences of living with depression after this rugby legend opened up and shared his experiences. Sir John Kirwan is attributed with having changed attitudes and public perceptions towards mental illness through the Government’s National Depression Initiative started in 2006.Initially his role was one part of a combined approach but the advertising campaign, coupled with the release of his book All Blacks Don’t Cry, soon established him as the change-maker and driving force of the campaign.

The Attitude TV series has developed into a character driven, documentary style series. It showcases engaging, entertaining stories about people who live with a disability. Attitude follows great characters, often on extraordinary life journeys.

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He's a newly minted knight and a man who's passionate about decreasing the stigma around mental illness. We're in Italy with Sir John Kirwan for an intimate conversation and a story of hope. Captions by Hugo Snell. www.tvnz.co.nz/access-services Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2012 SERENE MUSIC Depression and anxiety is about fear, raw fear, a series of very very scary thoughts that are controlling you. So it's just like being out of control in your head. For me, playing badly in an All Black jersey was an absolute disaster. I used to go to training and thought that everyone was watching me and they knew that I was depressed. Until the illness got stronger that I didn't really care about the football. It was just about survival. Uh, anxiety attacks might take two minutes. They feel like three days. You're always in` in tension. QUIRKY ITALIAN MUSIC He was and still is one of NZ's great rugby heroes. But today Treviso in northern Italy is where Sir John Kirwan calls home. I first came here when I was 20. Then I met my wife, who didn't speak any English. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So you're sort of forced to extend your vocab. As John came to terms with his much-publicised depression, he also discovered this Italian town is a haven. (CHUCKLES) (SPEAKS ITALIAN) This is the prince. This is the prince. The prince? This is the prince. The prince? (SPEAKS ITALIAN) He's developed firm friends and likes that emotions are freely expressed here. BOTH SPEAK ITALIAN So, Lele used to look after all the rugby players. So we'd all come in and he'd give us fruit and vegetables, like this is asparagus season here. John's been based here for the last 10 years. He travels the globe for his job coaching rugby and back to NZ where he passionately supports others with mental health issues. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) When in depression, you don't feel normal. You feel very isolated. You feel very, um, that it's personal, that it's yours. You feel weak. You lose your confidence, and so you have a series of things happening to you all at once that depression gives you that just flat-lines you, you know? LONESOME MUSIC (SPEAKS ITALIAN) (SPEAKS ITALIAN) (SPEAKS ITALIAN) Would you like some? (SPEAKS ITALIAN) Would you like some? I'll try a strawberry. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) He said instead of giving you flowers he's giving you fragole. He said instead of giving you flowers he's giving you fragole. Oh, that's lovely. > John shares the household cooking. The morning market is part of a lifestyle where simple everyday pleasures are built into a plan for wellness. So, the white stuff you boil and just have with a little bit of oil and boiled eggs. Yep. Oh, nice. But then this... (SPEAKS ITALIAN) (SPEAKS ITALIAN) He said this one is from the Treviso area and it's best in a risotto. BOTH SPEAK ITALIAN When I was unwell, I went on this really fun journey. I made it a bit of fun, you know, finding out what was good for me to make me mentally relaxed. What gave you that kind of relaxation. How did you find out that this keeps you level? I kept trying, you know? I just kept trying stuff. I mean, I tried everything. I tried meditation. I tried everything, very much with an open mind. And what I sort of found out for me was that I'm a very active relaxer. So, with all the vegetable, taking the time to look at them and smell the roses, so to speak. Yeah, nah, it's more about people. So it's probably more about Lele. And, you know. And, um, with the cooking, it's more about the process. He treats the stroll to and from the market as a chance to chill. And when he stops for coffee, it's not just the caffeine he's craving. Grazie. Prego. Prego. Sometimes you sit there and you drink the coffee, but this is about stopping and enjoying the moment. So, you've gotta be careful, because, you know. So, you've gotta be careful, because, you know. I can imagine, and it's only small. Come with me to come and have a coffee. Come and see someone else over coffee. Exactly. Exactly. But if you say water, it's just... (BLOWS) No, I can imagine. People would be, like, 'What's wrong with you?' He's` They're all making fun and just, you know, having a really good laugh, so... I used to do this a lot. Be a bit more light-hearted, perhaps. Yeah, exactly. Just see what's around you rather than` (SPEAKS ITALIAN) BOTH CHUCKLE He says it's very hard for him not to swear in the local dialect here. He's trying to be nice. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) (SPEAKS ITALIAN) He said let the old guy sit down. The young guy's gonna stand up. He said let the old guy sit down. The young guy's gonna stand up. (LAUGHS) PEOPLE CHATTER The whole shop's gonna come out and say goodbye to NZ, so... and to you. Thank you. Ciao. (SMOOCHES) Ciao. (CHUCKLES) No matter how busy his schedule is, John knows it's vital to take time out. He knows it's not always easy, but a healthy mind depends on it. And that's his message for everyone. < Ah, I love it. Growing up in NZ, we had Indian food and Indonesian food, Chinese food, but here in Italy you don't get it. So, I don't really risk cooking Italian because they're so good at it. So, what I've done to sort of make up for it is I cook a lot of curries and Indonesian food. The first thing you have to get used to in Italy is they totally criticise what you... Like, you can sit down at dinner, and the guests will say, 'Oh, it's...' < '...it's not that great.' < '...it's not that great.' Yeah. He can joke about that now, probably because he's mastered the cooking. 'And he's well.' But when he was in the depths of his depression, criticism was paralysing for John. There's a lot of little things that if I say, 'Oh, don't be bloody stupid. Harden up,' right at that moment, if you're not feeling well, that can be dramatic. Just like Michael Jones said to me one day ` 'You've got a great heart, JK.' Well, I was in such bad shape that day, I clung on to those words, and they're very special words for me. Because it got me through a really bad day. I say to my kids, you know, 'It's OK to cry when it's emotional if you're a male,' so, if you're upset, it's OK to cry. It's something that I never did. However, if you get knocked over on the football field or somewhere, then you've gotta toughen up. So being man it's important that you're tough physically, but also soft psychologically. So, you know, if you're upset, if your spirit's upset, your soul's upset, it's OK to cry. Whereas I think maybe my generation was 'just harden up' right across the board. So,... you know, communicating those things is important. Luca finishes at 1, but we took them all to school. Normally they go on the bike. In Colin Meads' era, they'd say harden up. But they wouldn't be saying harden up as if you should be harder than this. It's sort of` What it really means is, you'll get through it, try and tough it out, you know. It's so hard in there, that you're just trying to get through sometimes the minute. Then you try to get through the hour, then through the day, so often you can push people away or the people around you don't understand. So sometimes I think the communication when people don't understand can be taken in many different forms. And so, I think that for me, for those that are watching this that have loved ones and you don't know what to do, I think just accept` You know, what is love? Love is unconditional. It's very common in some of the symptoms but very personalised as well. So some of your inner thoughts you're too scared to share with the person next to you, but it is an illness. There's a lot of stigma associated with it as well. That's why people mask it and tend to say, you know, 'I'm doing OK.' Yeah, if I'd had help a lot quicker and if they'd been more understanding about it, I wouldn't have beaten myself up so much, and the journey wouldn't have been as long or as hard. I know I totally refused to accept it for a couple of years. Another question I get asked all the time is if I took pills. Yeah, well, I did. Did I like myself for it? No. But at the end of the day, if you had another illness, if you had diabetes, you've gotta inject yourself every day. That's just part of the illness. So, I think more understanding about the illness and more people get to know the symptoms and understand it, then they can really,... you know, accept it and do what they need to do through the illness to get well. The dad, the butcher, the accountant ` they all care what people think. < You know, what people's perceptions of them are. They don't wanna let their family down. < They don't wanna let their boss down, let their` I s'pose that is the same for everybody, isn't it? Well, I felt it. I mean, you know, you hear about some people who maybe have had a business problem lost all their money. People say, 'Well, it's only bloody money.' > But you cannot relate that to yourself. You know? It might have been the most important thing in that person's life; that he might have associated money with failure. You know, if I said to you, 'Oh, you've lost an All Black game,' and you knocked the ball on. You'd say, 'Well, so what?' But for me at that stage it might have been the biggest disaster ever. John's three children are in school and come home for their lunch break. < So, the kids expect a cooked meal when they come home from school? Lunch time is really the Italian thing. Like, we're all together at lunch. So, tonight... Luca finishes at 1. The others finish at 1.30. They'll come home for lunch. And then, you know, they'll study in the afternoon, and in the evenings there's sports, so it'll be a little bit different. For John, recognising he was unwell was the first step. Once I accepted it, I actually started getting better instantly. It was incredible. That was probably the best afternoon I'd had in three years. Once I accepted the illness and then started on the getting well road, I made it a little bit of fun. So, I said to myself, you know,... 'How am I going to get the time in my head that is going to give me some mental relief?' He started writing and talking. His services to a major mental health campaign launched six years ago led to his knighthood. He was initially scared to bare his soul, but believed Kiwis needed to talk more openly about depression. The most interesting thing for me was that I was scared to do it. I didn't wanna do it, cos I thought people would judge me and see me as weak. And the awareness campaign was incredible, you know? I'd have people sort of whispering back then, not so much coming out and saying, just whispering, 'Oh, I've been a bit depressed myself.' That sort of stuff. And then I said, 'Well, if this is what I've got, I wanna be the best at it,' cos that's my personality. So then I started on this journey of what I call wellness, you know, being as well as I can be. 5.30am, the family is soundly sleeping and John is at the local swimming pool. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) In his professional life, John is the coach. He first coached the Italian national rugby team then the Japanese side. But here he takes instruction from a former Olympic swimming coach. The coach makes it his business to mould John's mind as well as his muscle. He's a strong man. He's a very strong man. But when he's tired, he's... No! When you're tired... quiet. John's training for gruelling long-distance ocean swims. The goal? To raise money for athletes disabled through playing rugby. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) The morning swim sessions are part therapy for John, too. His coach is wise and inspires John. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) TRANSLATES: An athlete learns to understand himself,... TRANSLATES: An athlete learns to understand himself,... (SPEAKS ITALIAN) ...and so, as an athlete, you learn to dominate your energy... (SPEAKS ITALIAN) so when a rugby player is at his height, he shows his energy, everything, outwards and aggressively. So, everything's aggressive. and aggressively. So, everything's aggressive. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) And in water it's very different. You have to be very prudent, and you have to look after your energy and make sure you conserve that energy. Es la fundamental. Es la fundamental. That's the biggest difference. Es la fundamental. That's the biggest difference. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) And this is my problem. This is my biggest problem. So... (SPEAKS ITALIAN) So, he said, if I can actually get on top of this problem, cos when I get tired, I go to aggression, and water is an enemy that you'll never beat, so you have to be one with the water. So, when I get tired, I tend to grit my teeth. Whereas I need to... (SPEAKS ITALIAN) But I have good discipline, so I'm` He's just being nice now. QUIRKY ITALIAN MUSIC There you go. There you go. Grazie. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) You're looking quite tired after swimming today. Yeah, I suffered this morning. Yeah, I suffered this morning. (LAUGHS) You know, I really enjoy every day now, and I still set my goals for the future. But I don't worry too much about the past, and I don't worry too much about the future once I have goals. Just enjoy myself. We have a laugh every morning, and... But it's also good to, you know, have a bit of sufferance in the pool and work off a bit of the salami I ate yesterday. So, you know, it's a good life. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) Depression struck when John was at the height of his rugby career. Today as a coach he's tough, but he allows his softer side to come through. He looks out for his players. As a coach, I want the players under me to have the best times of their lives. so, to do that, you need to be challenged. To do that, you need honesty. To do that, you need, you know, to try and be the best that you can be every day. Uh, sometimes it's not nice. Sometimes I'll have to say things to you that are going to upset you, but will make you better. Sometimes I'll be angry with you if I don't think you're giving 100%, because it's about giving 100% all the time. My job is to make you the best that you can be. So that when you're my age and you look back on your career, you say, 'I have no regrets. 'You know, I gave it my best shot.' Yep. Good. Try the other side. Yeah, good. If it wasn't my son, if I was coaching, then you can have a lot of fun. It's a game we used to play a lot. Zinzan Brooke used to play it, and Robin Brooke used to play it a lot. Just, you know, accuracy of pass. 1-1. Son Luca is getting some of the best coaching a kid could get. But there's no expectation to follow in his dad's footsteps. If I get this, it's 2-1. Bring it. 2-1. He's really keen on footy, but I don't wanna put too much pressure on him. I just want him to enjoy it. So it's one of those hard ones. So it's one of those hard ones. I can imagine you'd wanna ride that clutch, thinking, 'Am I doing it, protecting him from the pressure that he might have being your` being your boy.' Yeah, like I said, it's a real hard one, you know? Like, there's plenty of sons of players that have gone through to play at the highest level, so it's just really important. Like, it doesn't matter if you don't become an All Black, but if you wanna be a All Black, you gotta try. So if you try your best and you don't make it, that's better than not trying. cos I think sometimes, you know, when the... when some things seem insurmountable, it's easier not to try. Get this, it's 2-2. Nice. < Argh. 3-2 to you. Pressure's on. Oh, bringing it home. (CHUCKLES) > Because of what I've been through, then I'm very open about mental health and, you know, Luca and Nico and Francesca know about mental health and what it is. So I explained it at a young age. And it's just, uh, something that they get. You know, they understand... that it's normal. Competition. Hands out. Oh no. > That's ridiculous, John. > Rugby players are expected to be tough, right, mentally and physically? Is that`? I think that's a little bit unfair on the sport as of today, because I think that rugby players need to be mentally tough, just like any other sportsman. Then I think, you know, this harden-up thing is a society thing. You know, rugby was rugby, racing and beer, uh, 25, 30 years ago. And society has continued to change. I would say that there's probably been a lack of communication, um, or a lack of showing emotion between father and son 40 years ago, because that was the generation. One of the reasons why we set off on this journey of trying to break down the stigma was it was because it was more myself. < The pressure you put on yourself. < The pressure you put on yourself. 'Weakness. You know, this is a weakness of mine. 'I've got absolutely no right to be unwell. 'I'm an All Black, you know. Happy. What's wrong?' So it was more about un-un` no understanding from my point of view. Sir John Kirwan was one of the greatest rugby wingers the world has ever seen. But it's the depression that's shaped him in ways he could never have imagined. There's certainly something amazing you can take out of that experience. What was it for you? I just think I'm a better person, you know. I just think I'm, um, really really aware of myself. So I understand fully myself. I can work harder, push all limits, because I know my limit. One of the things that a lot of, especially young, people ask me is, that they've lost themselves, and they're looking` they're worried that they won't get their good old happy self back. And I say, 'Well, I didn't get myself back. I got someone better back.' You know? I think that's important. You go back to being happy, to enjoying things. You go back to being motivated. You get all those parts of your life back. (SPEAKS ITALIAN) (SPEAKS ITALIAN) (SPEAKS ITALIAN) It has been for me the worst thing and the best thing that's ever happened to me, and I don't wish it on anyone. All I ask of people that have never suffered is to understand if someone does. Doesn't matter ` just relax. It's close. Look how close it is. You can do it, man. (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) Come on. We play this game. It's called World Cup Final. So, Luca's got a kick, and we pretend that it's the World Cup final. And if he gets it, we win the World Cup, and we were doing this before we won the World Cup, actually. THUD! See? Good pressure. Took the pressure. Eh? Gabby Evans has grown up in a sleepy town on the Coromandel Coast. She's deaf, and that suited her until now. I can hear, like, loud sounds, but not quiet sounds. I mean, I could hear a lawnmower or and airplane fine without my hearing aid. But it's the quiet sounds that I can't hear. Gabby's the only deaf girl in her community and at her school. I think they're more tied up to stereotypes. Maybe because we're in a smaller town. I generally have to prove myself. Everyone in this school is hearing, except for me. So she's moving here. Kelston School in Auckland is one of only two schools in NZ that caters to deaf students. I have to learn sign language, which I haven't really used since I was 2. She's just 13, and she'll be moving hundreds of kilometres from home. I don't really know much about Deaf culture. I'll be experiencing it, but I'm not exactly sure what the differences are. I hope that she'll be able to let that side of her ` fears and self-consciousness ` go and just get on with being Gabby. and not being Gabby the deaf girl. Bye. Bye. Bye! Captions by Hugo Snell. www.tvnz.co.nz/access-services Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2012

Attitude A Conversation with John Kirwan

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