Tonight on Close Up ` he's with his disabled adult children 24/7. This constant caregiver talks about his fight with the government to get the help he needs. And should our first profoundly deaf MP have to pay for the support she needs? Due to the live nature of Close Up, captions for some items may be incomplete. ONE News captions by Sam Bradford and Pippa Jefferies. Close Up captions by Richard Edmunds and Toni Tippett. Parliament has a profoundly deaf MP. No surprise ` we all worked that one out shortly after the election, but did the message not get through. There's now a row at Parliament over putting in suitable equipment for Mojo Mathers to take part as an MP. Well, the row is who's going to pay for it. The Greens say it's parliament's responsiblity. The Speaker's office says it should come out of the MP's own budget. The Speaker will join us live, but first I talked to Mojo Mathers a little earlier. So, did she think it was discrimination? Yes, I consider it to be discriminatory, because no other member of parliament is expected to fund their participation in the debating chamber, and that is the crux of the issue. If you were in a wheelchair? Uh, I raised that issue with the speaker, because I said, 'One day there may be a member of parliament` 'There will be a member of parliament one day who uses a wheelchair, 'and the modifications required to the debating chamber will be expensive.' And I said, 'Would that be expected to come out of that MP's personal support budget?' And he said, 'No, because it's a physical, technical things that they can just fund that.' I cannot see what the difference is. Do Maori speakers pay for their interpreters in Parliament? No, they do not, because it's a service provided for every member in the house, and if Parliament was fully accessible, there would be no issue around funding for the electronic note-takers in the chamber. The Green Party gets a lot of funding. Why can't they pay for it themselves? Every party and member gets a considerable allocation of hours. It's about 80 hours a week. It is used to fund the executive assistant ` so their campaign and constituency work. And what my position is I should not` that money for the note-takers should not be coming out of that support budget, because that is what every member of Parliament has in order to do their work outside of the house. I understand that the Green Party should not run a campaign on water quality or on disability rights or on any other issue that we see the campaign on in order to fund my participation in the house. The Green Party should not be having to make these kind of decisions, and no other party is expected to. And the other big issue is that once you set a precedent that parties are expected to fund the participation of their disabled members, if they are elected members of parliament, then that will act as a huge disincentive to run disabled candidates highly on their list, and that's just not on. Because some people have said the Green Party appointed you knowing you have a disability, therefore they should be paying for the costs. It is the right of NZers to be fully represented in Parliament by a very diverse group of people in Parliament, because that is what reflects the constituencies, and at the moment disabled people are lacking an obvious voice in Parliament ` and hearing-impaired ` and I can provide that voice in parliament, and it's the responsibility of the whole of democratic Parliament to ensure that I can do that effectively. NZ has signed the convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and in part of that convention it guarantees the right to effective participation and to be elected into political position. The Speaker says he is caught by the rules. He is not doing anything wrong. I think he could have maybe been more... supportive in saying, 'Yes, you shouldn't have to pay for this. 'I will advocate for you to get the funding that you need.' But he didn't do that. He said, 'Look at these support hours you have. 'Surely you can fund it out of your support hours.' So I didn't see that as being particularly supportive either of my participation in the house in terms of funding. Having said that, I do want to acknowledge that there's been a huge amount of energy and effort going into finding the right technology and the right support for me to participate, but it's about the funding of that support. Do you think the Speaker thought you were being greedy? I wouldn't say that the Speaker` I don't know what the Speaker thought on that, but I certainly don't consider it to be greedy. I consider it to be an essential and fundamental discussion about what does genuine democracy mean and what does an accessible Parliament mean? And it's a discussion that we need to have. Mojo lip-reads. But she relies on note-takers in Parliament. Joining me now, the Speaker of the House, Dr Lockwood Smith. He said this afternoon at a press conference that the inexperience of Mojo Mathers and the Greens' Whip may have led to this row. What are you saying? They don't know how to play the game? It's pretty simple, isn't it? Not at all. It's very important that we don't politicise the office of the Speaker. These issues are not exactly what they seem. Parliament is putting huge resources into funding the appropriate technological equipment. I've even asked them to explore new options. The latest computer systems aren't that compatible. We are looking at rewriting software. We're spending that money. We're putting a lot of resources in to make sure that Mojo's desk is all set up to meet the requirements. What she is now asking for is extra support hours. All members of Parliament get 80 support hours. What has been the traditional practice is that not all members need the same amount as other members, so give their hours to other members who have greater need. Are you saying because the Greens get a big bundle of support hours, they can sort it out themselves? Not at all. I have discretion. I can ask the clerk to do things to help Mojo. But it's a separate appropriation by Parliament. I cannot unilaterally change that. You can ask for different things to be done. You've done as much as you can? I've asked the new technology to be experimented. Are they making a fuss about nothing, then? We need to make sure the staffing is available. She needs people to take notes so she can get transcription of what is being said. That is separate funding. I cannot unilaterally change that. Can she do the job the very same as any other MP at the moment? I give my support hours to members with greater need than me. There is no reason why other members of her party cannot do the same. We should do that first, before we go to the taxpayer. Taxpayers pay a lot of money to support Mps. Don't all parties get funding to do their business? Why cut into it to get to step one? We are simply saying the sensible thing to do is see if there are enough resources within Parliament to provide the support Mojo needs without going to the taxpayer. But I said the matter should be thoroughly looked at in the future. I have to go through the proper process. But members should be able to support Mojo. Taxpayers provide local support to members of Parliament in hours and cash. And members choose to use those resources differently. Members set those different priorities. Within parties, members give those resources to colleagues. We should do that first and foremost, rather than go straight to the taxpayer. So, what do you think? Is Mojo Mathers being given a raw deal or not? We're running a Facebook poll tonight. Get involved with our online discussion, or simply just vote by heading to facebook.com/closeup Coming up ` at 75 he's a full-time dad, a full-time caregiver. Does this guy deserve a break? Cliff Robinson is a good man. He must also be a tired man. Cliff is a dad, and his kids,... well, they need more care than most. Marita and Johnny both have intellectual disabilities, so, at 75, Cliff is still their full-time carer. Getting help for people like Cliff is something the Court of Appeal is deciding right now, so Cliff and the kids headed to the capital for the hearing. We hear direct from Cliff shortly, but first, Jehan Casinader on what Cliff is up against. EMOTIVE MUSIC In the morning she comes out, and the first thing she says is, 'I love you, my daddy.' 'I love you, Daddy.' And she's said that every morning for 45 years, you know. A dad with dedication. Good man, Johnny. That's very good! In the '70s, Cliff's wife walked out, and he was literally left holding the baby. And here's Johnny 8 months old, and I picked him up and thought, 'What end do I start at?' I didn't know whether to start at the front end or the back end. He was left with not one, but two special needs children. He's raised them on his own for more than 40 years. Both are intellectually impaired. Johnny is on medication for schizophrenia and diabetes. With his superannuation and the kids' disability allowances, Cliff has $800 a week, but all of it is eaten up by food, power and transport bills, plus Cliff's mortgage. That's the Parliament house. That's the Beehive. Who lives up there, Johnny? John Key. John Key. And before that? And Helen Clark. That's right. But the government refuses to pay him as a carer, even though he's caring for his kids full time. The Ministry of Health's dogmatic attitude. They've got these fenced rules, and that's the way you should behave. Cliff is part of a battle to change that policy. He and other parents have taken the government to court. It's a 'David and Goliath' battle ` an old working class bloke from Onehunga has taken on the state on a very important issue. After more than a decade, his fight ended up in the Court of Appeal this week. It's gonna be an exciting day, because the Crown finishes the case. Cliff and the kids have travelled from Thames to the capital. Where are we going to go after we leave here? We're going to go to the...? Courtroom. Courtroom. Is there anything coming? Look both ways. Walk briskly, come on. I think it's just amazing that we are part of NZ's changing attitude towards the handicapped. I've been part of that change for 40 years. How many judges is there? Can you remember? Five. Five, that's it. And there's one that sits in the centre. He's the important one. Now at 75, Cliff is still hoping to see a law change to support parents doing a job that few would envy. While they're in the capital, Cliff and his kids are staying in a hostel in the city. Cliff joins me now live. Cliff, your caring role is 24-7, isn't it? That's it. It never stops. What is the toughest thing for you? A few things, actually. When Marita went from girlhood into womanhood, that was a very difficult time for a Kiwi joker. And when Johnny developed schizophrenia. But every day is a challenging day. Every day is different. What exactly are you asking for? What we're asking for... This is the third court case. It's been an acre of trees cut down for the paperwork. Yet it is a very simple equation. If I get you to coming here for these kids fully allocated hours the state provides, You get $15 an hour. But some of us parents want to do it ourselves. That's what we're asking. How much difference would it make to your life? Of course a few bob helps. I never had a chance to save for my superannuation. And it's also the recognition of what I do. That's what I find most important ` the state recognition that this guy is doing a good job. It's an incredibly tough job you've had. You've never wavered? When Johnny has been it his most difficult behaviour, that thought lasts for 30 seconds of my head. I'll look after them if I have to crawl around on the floor to do it until the day I die. They say that they can't have the sort of payments being made, because they would harm family relationships. You're not impressed by that argument? Not one iota. What they're saying is that might end up sibling against sibling and people fighting over who gets the dough. I've invited Tony Ryall to come to my house for half a day to see what I have to do. I look at what a fantastic job you do. You're 75. Do you worry what's going to happen when you pass on? It's always a worry. I have a niece through marriage who has offered to help. But what is the use and worrying about it? Let's take each day as it comes and enjoy each day. I've come across other parents who look after the kids with special needs. That's one of the things they worry about. They love the kids so much and worry. We wish you good luck, Cliff. We're going to be watching carefully. And we just admire you for what you are doing. Thanks, Mark. Coming up, we've the result of the Facebook poll, plus all your feedback. Still time to let us know your views. Go to the website, or email us at... And you can post on our Facebook page. That is... To feedback now. Rebecca says... Ngahina says... A bit harsh there, I think. But one more comment. Sharon writes... Before we go tonight, to our Facebook poll, the question: should deaf MP Mojo Mathers have to pay for her own technology? The live results now as it stands of Facebook at the moment. That's NZ Close Up. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2012