It's Christchurch. The cathedral's Christchurch. It is the centre point of Christchurch, and it's what everybody comes to see. Well, at what cost? I mean, there's how many churches in this city? It's, sort of, which one do you choose? You think of Auckland, you think of the sails; you think of Wellington, you think of the Beehive; or you think of New York ` Empire State Building. It really is our Empire State Building, effectively, I think. Due to the live nature of Close Up, captions for some items may be incomplete. ONE News captions by Hugo Snell and Kelsey Taylor. Close Up captions by Faith Hamblyn and Desney Thorogood. The Anglican Church announced it was coming down. But controversially, the diocese refuses to release the expert reports it based the decision on, nor options and the costings to rebuild. We want to know more, and we think you deserve to know more, which is why we are here tonight, talking to the people who think they can help or in a position to. But first, Abby Scott crunches the numbers. It's the building that defines the city; the church in the heart of Christchurch; what the Eiffel Tower is to Paris; what Westminster Abbey is to London. Now the church is planning to demolish its icon, but some say it's like ripping the heart out of the city. It's losing someone from your family, really. It is. It's awful. Cos it is a centre point of Christchurch, and it's what everybody comes to see. You think of Auckland, you think of the sails; you think of Wellington, you think of the Beehive; you think of New York, you think of Empire State Building. It really is our Empire State Building, effectively, I think. The cathedral was once one of the city's top tourist attractions. The council has spent more than $2m on it in the past 15 years alone, and it's a building that has special meaning for Cantabrians. But it still belongs to the Anglican Church, and it's the church facing the repair bill. It says rebuilding a replica cathedral would cost $100m more than its insurance payout, while a new building incorporating pieces of the original structure would leave it $50m out of pocket. The cathedral survived September's quake relatively unscathed. God's looking out especially for us. In February, that all changed. For days, it was thought more than a dozen people had been caught when the building collapsed. I really was surprised at the message that they'd found no bodies, and I just said, 'Are you sure? It's just unbelievable.' And he said, 'Yep, absolutely, there are no bodies.' So I just burst into tears. The damage to the cathedral was extensive and expensive to repair. Aftershocks in June didn't help, and in November, the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority issued the church with a demolition notice. But it was still thought only partial demolition would be required. Back then international seismic engineer Kit Miyamoto said the iconic building could be restored and strengthened for just $20m. But on December 23rd, fresh aftershocks rocked the city, further destabilising the cathedral. The building was closed down. The church says that further damage sent repair costs skyrocketing and gave it no other option than to bring it down. I think we need to look forward to the future. We need to have new icons for a new future for Christchurch. The mother church brought to her knees by Mother Nature, but this city isn't about to give her up without a fight. Not everyone here is sold on the concept of a new icon for Christchurch. As we've heard, they're rather partial to the old one. The question is do they have a choice? Is it even possible to save the old cathedral? Simon MacDonald is a structural engineer with the Miyamoto Cardno Group. When $20 million was quoted, That was before the December after-shocks. I don't believe that has fundamentally changed the figure. Practically, how do you do it? There's no one way of doing it. It involves scoring into the walls of the cathedral. This compresses the walls, and that makes the walls stronger. It would look as people remembered it. We gather the Anglican Church believes it can't be done for $20m. In terms of the reports, is there any reason they should be secret? You're a structural engineer. Is there something in this for you? It's the heart of Christchurch. We've put a counterproposal out. Bishop Matthews says it's our Cathedral. It is their building. This means more to the people of Christchurch than just the actual owners of the building themselves. To have a stake in it? I love the old cathedral. His tagline for his own company is 'make the world a better place.' He's been to Haiti, he's in Japan right now. He wants to improve the safety of these buildings. $20m is so different to 50,000,000 or 100 or other figures that we've seen. That's the price that Kit's come up with. We've offered to fly experts over from Milan in Italy. We have received a very nice letter from the church saying thanks, but no thanks. This is not just a Christchurch issue ` how much emphasis do we placethe question of how much emphasis we place on preserving history could affect any town. So what do you think? Go to our website, email us at closeup@tvnz.co.nz and we're on Facebook too ` facebook.com/closeup. Coming up ` former mayor Garry Moore reveal just how things used to work between the council and the church, and the cathedral saga takes another twist. The government's about to play it's hand ` hear it here first after break. But what's the view of the people on the street? I lost a lot of people in the February earthquake, and lives mean way more to me than a building. I guess it's history, but I guess it's also a lot of money to keep it. Icon of the city, isn't it? Yeah, it's a shame that it's going, but can't do much about it. This is about both a cathedral and a church ` a cathedral in ruins and a church under pressure. Representing the Anglican church, bishop Victoria Mathews ` she has been fronting on this issue. I say has been, but after a controversial radio interview with local anchor Mike Yardley, the church and the bishop have adopted radio silence, so Alexi O'Brien decided to track her down. # One church, # one faith, # one Lord. # What have you got to hide, Bishop? I have nothing to hide, sir. The bishop of Christchurch under fire on local radio,... Do you understand the pulse of Christchurch? Do you understand us? I think that is one of the rudest questions I have ever been asked. ...questioned over the transparency of the church's decision to demolish the cathedral. Will the church happily release all of those assessments, all of that documentation as has been requested? Probably not, because we've actually made our decision, and we made that announcement last week. I'd like to introduce Bishop Victoria Matthews to you all. While the bishop was in the spotlight at Friday's announcement, today there's been a media merry-go-round of a team including hired spin-doctor Rosie Paul as well as experienced media man and reverend Jayson Rhodes. From the bishop, though, silence. Hello, you've reached Bishop Victoria Matthews' mobile. Please leave a message. Thanks so much. Goodbye. BEEP! Hello, Bishop Matthews, it's Alexi O'Brien here from Close Up. Despite calls to the bishop's phone and that of the entire media team, she's refused to front. Instead, a statement claiming there was nothing further to add, the church saying it's just made a difficult decision, asking for some space. While on Friday, she was conciliatory,... There are, of course, those who disagree, and I stand in deep respect of those people. ...is that respect wavering? Why am I needing to have the public's confidence that you speak of if I believe I have done due diligence in this matter? A matter that despite, or because of, the church's silence refuses to go away. Mayor Bob Parker is on record as saying the church should front up with a vision for a new cathedral, but tonight he declined to front up himself, saying he's said all he's got to say on the cathedral, that it was an issue just for the church. Former mayor Garry Moore takes a different view ` he believes the people of the city are being let down and that needs to be talked about. How are they being let down? Since my time on the Council, the councils put $5m into this. We bought the intercultural assembly together. The city was formed around the four estates. The establishment was the Anglican Church. That needs now to be challenged. If the council poured $5m into this cathedral, they should have some say in it. It's a public facility. It needs to be much more open. The church is very quick to point the finger at anybody else who isn't open. Are you pointing the finger at Bishop Matthews? I would say that. People are saying she's arrogant. Is it because she sounds different? No. We should focus on the institution, rather than the people. The Anglican Church is found wanting on this particular issue. I saw them falling over backwards to try and work with the church. They've made the call. Is it about money? I asked Kit to bring in an Italian engineer. It's time to bring in another opinion from overseas. There must be a limit to rebuilding. The process needs to be open. We as a city need to go beyond isolationism. Council got a role as well? Bob Parker stood alongside the media. Bishop Matthews made some comments on newstalk IZB. Are people over it? Bishop Matthews may get her way. But it's important to stand up and say we challenge it being done properly. Coming up ` Earthquake Minister Gerry Brownlee. Will the government step in? But first more of your views. At the end of the day, a building is nothing compared to people's lives. Even if you're aren't an Anglican, it is very important. Their decision to take it down, as sad as it may seem, is probably a stark reality of where Christchurch is at. Who has a stake in the cathedral? Is it just the church, as the bishop seems to be implying, or the wider community here, as we've heard from Garry Moore, or does this affect us all? Gerry Brownlee sits in Cabinet with responsibility for rebuilding his city, but do our interests need to be considered as well? He joins me now from Wellington. Minister, is this a decision for the church alone? Primarily it is. Your comments need challenging. The Anglican Church has been used for civic functions over the years, but that has never been anything other than a Cathedral. The decision has been difficult because it is in bad shape. It's easy to point fingers, but this city needs to move forward. TheY'll be able to see that for themselves. The walkway will be reopened so people can take a look at the cathedral. Will do that over the two coming weekends. People will get a sense of how difficult the proposals are. People will think you are softening up the people. We have had 18 months of seismic activity. While that activity will reduce, there is a heightened chance of it happening again. We should leave it to people to have a look over the next two weekends and see where public opinion is after that. You have been rough on the Bishop. No one's saying it is an easy decision to make. It doesn't mean people have to give up the past. Shouldn't they look at that? Some will be saying the building itself identifies Christchurch. The fortitude of the people who are going about recovering the city marks us out particularly. I'm as sad as anybody about that building coming down. My great-grandfather worked on that building. It is an identifier, but I look at it and think what is more important? Buildings being safe or having that question mark over some buildings? Would it help if the church was more transparent? There is a suspicion when you don't see the reports. Gary Moore says let's have one more look at it. You have to make decisions if you want to move forward. The plan they have now to recover as much as possible is where they should have landed. Thanks to our guests tonight. To be honest, it would have been great to have had an all-in discussion on this important issue. It's what we wanted to do for this city and for the country, but without the church and without the mayor, significant voices are missing. But it doesn't stop us talking and thinking about it. From Christchurch, that's NZ Close Up. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2012