Tonight on Close Up ` the jury has spoken in the Urewera trial. Now hear Tame Iti's account of what went on. The whole thing was just madness. But people see those videos. They look at what was happening there, and they think, 'What else could be going on?' You look like revolutionaries. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You call yourself revolutionaries. Yeah, but I don't` Yes, I am a revolutionary, and I always maintain my stance as a revolutionary. Due to the live nature of Close Up, captions for some items may be incomplete. ONE News captions by June Yeow and Kelsey Taylor. Close Up captions by Richard Edmunds and Angela Alice. As we go to air tonight, the Urewera Four have just walked out of the High Court, having been granted bail. In the last hour, they have been found guilty and not guilty on a variety of firearms charges, but the jury was unable to reach a decision on the most contentious ` that of if the accused belonged to an organised criminal group. Last week, I had the opportunity to talk to Tame Iti as he walked into court. The whole thing is just madness, really, basically. I mean, all these accusations about me creating havoc in my community ` that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in my life. You know, I spend my whole life in the front, and I don't run secret societies. But people see those videos. They look at what was happening there, and they think, 'What else could be going on?' You look like revolutionaries. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You call yourself revolutionaries. Yeah, but I don't` Yes, I am. I am a revolutionary, and I always maintain my stance as a revolutionary. Revolution in my understanding of the term is something that we make some changes. I mean, I come from the Ruatoki, so Tuhoe country. Firearms is an intricate part of my life, because I'm brought up to have a firearm. We're brought up to have a shotgun, a .303, a .22. That's an intricate part of the tool, like we have a spade. Could you understand, though, for outsiders ` for people outside. They look at it, it does not look good, does it? Well, depends. The media can twist these things. And they don't tell the really true story what's happening. You know, and so the use of firearms is something I have been doing working with young people for many, many years. In fact, I was one of the first lot of recruits recruited for a programme called detached youth worker. And right through that whole period as a youth worker, we used firearms as an intricate part` It's like teaching people how to fight. So I can teach you to punch, but that doesn't mean to say you gotta use this and go out on the street and punch people. There was a suggestion in court that part of this was training people up for security work in Iraq. Yeah. No one's gonna believe that, are they? Well` Valerie Morse in Iraq? We had witnesses there that actually verified that. I mean, they brought a guy ` the top man in Afghanistan there to look at the images: 'What do you think of that? Blah, blah, blah, blah.' But they didn't actually show exactly what it is. Your lawyer compared you to Nelson Mandela. Well, that's an opinion. Do you see yourself at a Mandela-type figure? Well, I guess that we all have` Nelson Mandela I guess was one man that we respected. I committed myself there to make those changes. Many, many thousands of people in this country that opposed to Muldoon era for allowing the white racist team that came over to this country. And so Nelson Mandela and the others that was part of making those changes, so, yeah, I have respect for those people there that fight for justice. If you are convicted in this court, what will you do? Well, I'm still a free man. You know, you would never be able to lock my soul. I'm still a free man. That doesn't mean to say that they are right. Your lawyer also said yesterday he did an equation: M + G = C. Maori + guns = crime. Mm, yeah, well, I think that that always` And, I mean, many a times I've been stopped in the car, because they see Tame Iti's face. I've seen a cop there on K Road, and I was parked up behind 10 other cars, and he went past. And guess what ` he did a U-turn on K Road just to check out to see whether` I mean, that's` that kind of attitude. For people, again, who are watching this ` they've seen bits of the video, on the TV on the news and things like that. Can you tell them what on earth were you guys doing there? We were in Tuhoe. We were in Tuhoe country. That's my backyard you're talking about. You know` But not all the people there were Tuhoe. It's like somebody looking through a keyhole, they go through like that. They should come and talk to us rather than looking through a keyhole. You cannot make judgement by looking through a keyhole and spying around us. So you are not planning armed revolution? > No. Not planning to destroy anything? Do you think the police were wrong to charge you? Yes. They're wrong, too, for invading the whole of the community. They are wrong, too, for being at the confiscation line and stop iwi, cars and men, children, going to do their normal things. That is wrong. You don't do that anywhere in this country. We heard in court there's talk of hatred at the moment. Yeah, yeah, but it depends how you look at that. I think- You know, the funny thing about the English word ` 'hatred' ` 'course there's a feeling. There's a feeling of... I mean, ask yourself. Ask yourself 150 years ago, they come and raid your whole community in Auckland. They took everything from you. Ask yourself that ` how would you feel about that? Which is why people look and think, 'Well...' You may not agree with it, but you can probably understand why people might take up arms and be prepared to fight. Yeah, but, um, hey, like I said to you before, firearms have always been an intricate part of our community. I come from the Urewera. We use firearms. I come from a farming background. You see that there just like you have spades. It's a normal situation. If you're walking around in K Road and Ponsonby with firearms, well, it will look funny. You'll be making a phone call. But in our community, it's a normal, intricate part. You can go there today ` you'll see something right in the halls and at the back of the farm. So,... Hey, you're at home, you do it the Tuhoe way. That doesn't mean to say we're gonna go and make a plan to go and create a havoc in our community. That's the most... ludicrous thing that I've ever heard in my life. The four are still inside getting bail. Russell Fairbrother represents Tame Iti. He joins me now live. Is a hung jury a win? I think so. People either like what Tame stands for or not. The results reflects that. The jury, I think, were looking for hard facts. Do you believe the charges should have been brought in the first place? No. Have you talked to Tame? What did he say? 'Thank you.' He is a very attractive and appealing man if you get to know him. I spoke to him while waiting for the verdict. He seemed nervous. Is this a legal case or moral case? I think it is more political than moral. I think the police expected to have more than what they had. Was it wrong for the police to bring charges? I don't know why the police proceeded against some and not others. The Crown could ask to take the case again. Have you heard anything about that? The prosecutor will reflect and make the right decision. Will they go to jail? Should they? I don't think they should, but the charges do carry jail terms. The case is so extraordinary that you can't predict what will happen. Will the decisions around it have to be reviewed by someone? Who? I think the solicitor general will review the matter. A lot of money has been spent on this case for very little result. is it extraordinary because of the publicity? It did generate a lot of publicity. The law was put into place to get drug dealers and terrorists. Tame Iti is neither. Coming up, we have more on the Urewera trial. Just to recap ` Urewera Four convicted on some firearms charges, but the jury was unable to reach a verdict on the most serious charge. Joining me now is Associate Law Professor Bill Hodge. We heard Russell Fairbrother say this was an extraordinary case. It was, and the terrorism act issues are still on. There was a serious issue. You don't demonstrate the Molotov cocktails. But I think there is an element of overkill. The Crown will say they won. They got the firearms convictions. Russell Fairbrother as saying it was a law designed for drug lords and terrorists. There is something here for both sides. Crown: "we got convictions" Defendants: "Not the serious charges" I understand the charge of organised criminal group. Are you saying the jury would have struggled with that in any case? I don't understand the application of that statute to that group, and the concepts are difficult. If it's something a law professor can't understand... Labour passed that in 2002 as part of an international panic about terrorism. It is a very difficult section of the crimes act. I'm not sure people in Parliament understand it either. Whether that statute can ever be applied in NZ, I don't know. It's very difficult. It all started some years ago. The decision to go in heavy-handed ` will that be looked at again? In hindsight, it looks like overkill. But they saw Molotov cocktails and automatic weapons. That would give you cause for concern. There is something each way here. The police went a little over the top, but had some good reason. They have until 18 April before they come back before the judge and make up their minds about a retrial. What do they consider? Complexity, expense, resources... And there may already get a prison sentence. One of the other issues ` in sentencing, they are to look at previous convictions. Those with them are more likely to go inside than those with a clean sheet. Some would get community service for home detention; maybe one might go inside. Does this now had to go back to Parliament? 'You gave us a law which doesn't work.' They made a mess of it the first time, and I don't trust them to get it right this time. It is so difficult to put into place. They need to look at search warrant statutes and evidence act as well. Can you ever see this statute being used again? As part of a massive international conspiracy, possibly. But I'd be surprised. What other prosecutors saying tonight? Retrial? Give up? There are points on each side. Something for both sides. The debate goes on. Your students will be looking at this case. Indeed, but it's terribly difficult. I wouldn't inflict an examination question on this. Imagine what it was like for the jury. There'll be more on Tonight. Berocca Focus 50+ ` the new performance multivitamin that helps support alertness, clarity and stamina. MOTORCYCLE ENGINE REVS SPLASH! THUD! TRIUMPHANT MUSIC Berocca Focus 50+ ` the new multivitamin to help support alertness, clarity and stamina. It's the old Carly Simon classic with a twist ` you're so vain, you probably think this story is about you. Well, if you're on Facebook a lot, it is. New research from Western Illinois University shows a direct link between the number of friends you have on Facebook and the degree to which you are a 'socially disruptive' narcissist ` in other words, self-absorbed and shallow. That's not to say every Facebook user is vain, but it gets worse ` two elements of narcissism were measured. The first, grandiose exhibitionism ` this includes vanity and superiority. These people often say shocking things or inappropriately disclose stuff because they cannot stand to be ignored, and they'll have more Facebook friends. The second part, entitlement and exploitativeness ` up-themselves users. Score highly here and you're more likely to accept friend requests from strangers and seek social support, but less likely to provide it. Now, before you all become armchair shrinks, the study looked at just less than 300 people, but it's considered a trend. And what does it say about our society? To find out, Marc Wilson, the acting head of psychology, joins me now from Wellington. Marc, does this surprise you? Sadly, it doesn't. It is consistent with other research conducted recently. But Facebook has become such a phenomenon. The big criticism has always been these are real friends; they're pretend. We have known for a while that people who traits consistent with narcissism have more acquaintances. There is also evidence that men and women present themselves differently on Facebook. Photos and descriptions. It doesn't paint a very pretty picture of the people trying to build large numbers? But we shouldn't go as far as to start blaming Facebook for everything bad in the world. It is just a way for people who want to publicise themselves to do so. That was much harder to do before Facebook. But that doesn't mean that everyone uses Facebook this way. How many Facebook friends do you have? 25, and most of them are family, which hopefully doesn't mean I'm a narcissist. We hear this ` 'socially disruptive narcissist' ` what is it in plain language? Loving yourself to the point where it's a bad thing. It is not just the same thing as having high self-esteem. There are a range of other components. What the study actually adds other things that are involved in interpersonal manipulation. So it's not just putting up cool photos of yourself and pretending of lots of mates. It's not just that you'll go online and say atrocious things; you ask things of people that you will not be prepared to give yourself. Selfish, basically? You could do my job, Mark. It is not as much selfish as self-involved, but it does comprise traits consistent with selfishness. It's not a big step from just caring about yourself to going and doing things that harm other people. That's NZ Close Up. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air.