Tonight on Sunday, the Scott Guy murder trial that's gripped the nation. We don't think he 'got off' anything. We think, um, it was the proper verdict. He was the man at the centre of it. Did you ever look Ewen Macdonald in the eye and ask him, 'Did you kill Scott Guy?' The proverbial and classic whodunnit. Who is Ewen Macdonald? He's just a normal Kiwi bloke. When you saw him after that verdict, how was Ewen Macdonald? If I let it down for a second, something may happen and I may not be in the loop. The new-age addiction. If I'm putting out the rubbish, it's in my hand. How much harm could your smartphone be causing you? This is a new addiction. The long-term effects are not understood. Are you addicted to it? Probably. Seriously? Seriously? LAUGHS: Yeah, probably. And up close with pop star Katy Perry. My dream then is exactly what I'm living now. # This is the part of me # that you're never gonna ever take away from me, no. # Yeah. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2012 Kia ora. I'm Miriama Kamo. It's two years ago today that Scott Guy was murdered. The anniversary comes after the dramatic acquittal of his accused murderer, Ewen Macdonald, in Wellington's High Court this week. But the verdict isn't the end of the country's fascination with a murder trial that saw the media follow every development over the four weeks in court. Everyone's still talking about it, but no one's heard from the key players ` until tonight. Ewen Macdonald's lawyer, Greg King, talks to Amanda Millar about the trial. Sit back, buckle in and enjoy the journey through the evidence. It played out like a blockbuster TV reality series, except it was the rawest of reality for three broken families ` poisoned by betrayal, jealousy, persecution and ultimately the murder of a young, handsome dad and dairy farmer, Scott Guy. How do you plead ` guilty or not guilty? > Not guilty, your honour. The cops said this man, Ewen Macdonald, did it; It just does not make sense. his lawyer said he didn't. And Greg King set out to steal the show on behalf of his client. ...not gonna have one skerrick of evidence. So, how lucky was Ewen Macdonald to get you to defend him, then? Ewen Macdonald was extraordinarily unlucky to be charged with this offence in the first place. So it's not a case of being lucky or otherwise. The Crown's case was that Ewen Macdonald had the motive, the means and the state of mind to kill his brother-in-law. What possible basis have you got for speculating...? Greg King said the evidence didn't stack up. I'll reiterate your rights. What we did know about Macdonald was that he had admitted to the arson of the old Guy farmhouse, vandalising Kylee and Scott Guy's new home and writing offensive graffiti directed at Kylee. So, what kind of man was Ewen Macdonald? He's not this ice man who just sits there and doesn't respond to anything. He was acutely aware. But, you know, he's just a normal Kiwi bloke. But he's not a normal Kiwi bloke. He was at the centre of this case; this huge trial. How did he deal with all of that? How did he deal with all of that? Very stoically, I think. He, uh... I mean, obviously he does not welcome the intrusion into his life and his family's lives and everything that's gone with it. < Yeah, but he did it. That was part of his own making. We know that. < Yeah, but he did it. That was part of his own making. We know that. Well, no. The reason he'd made news is cos he was charged with a murder which we say he didn't commit. So` < But he did all these other things. < But he did all these other things. Yeah, but that wouldn't have made the news. People's houses get damaged, graffiti gets written, uh, every day of the world. It happens. It's a fact. It wouldn't make the news. So he committed all these other crimes, so potentially he could have done that... Mm, sure. Mm, sure. < ...murder. He could have murdered. Mm, sure. < ...murder. He could have murdered. Well, we say he didn't. Did you ever look Ewen Macdonald in the eye and say, 'Did you do it? Did you murder Scott Guy?' Oh, look, it's not something that you look them in the eye and say that. It's not my job to do that. But obviously we` But obviously we` < Isn't it? I mean, people expect you, as a defence lawyer... Well, they're wrong. My job is to run the case in accordance with his instructions as to what he did. If he'd told me that he did it, our case would have been run on the basis that he did it. He would have pleaded guilty. At all times, he's maintained that he didn't do it. And he's been able to provide us with an explanation, an answer, to every issue we've raised with him. We all had our own opinions, fuelled by an insatiable appetite from the media to feed off every morsel of this trial, day in, day out. But surely you can understand why we've all become so captivated by this trial. No, I can't! That's the one thing that I absolutely can't get. You know. You have a theory. We've spoken about this. You know. You have a theory. We've spoken about this. Yeah. Yeah ` pure, unadulterated racism. When brown people are killed or brown people are killing, no one gives a damn, it seems. But when they're good-looking white people, then it's all drawn into this media hysteria. NZ is one of the few countries in the world that allows cameras in court. Greg King says the media has gone too far. When I started this job, they didn't allow cameras in courts; now they're everywhere. And I think they're being abused. The focus is not about the evidence and about the media being the surrogates of the public; it's whether someone's wearing a wedding ring or what someone's got tattooed on her elbow. It's... And when the tears start, the clicking of cameras is deafening. Then why? Why in the realms of Christendom would you be correcting people? DRAMATIC ORCHESTRAL MUSIC But when the attention's on him, Greg King will turn on the drama. The climax: the closing to the jury. Come on! MUSIC STOPS It's offensive to your intelligence. Your best mate, Bob Jones, described that as utter and sheer theatrics... Yeah. < ...that he and` < ...that he and` Bob said I yelled at the jury too much. I pointed out he was basing that on a 10-second sound bite out of a four-hour closing address where I raised my voice once. But as far as Greg King is concerned, it's all about show and performance in those last, crucial hours, isn't it? You've gotta wake them up, and you've gotta make sure that your points stick. I don't accept that it's theatre. I don't accept that it's showmanship. It is about using delivery techniques to try and make those impacts. But at the end of the day, it's how I am and it's how I do things. But it's not an act. And then the drama and emotion of a not-guilty verdict. Kylee Guy fled the court yelling, 'He killed my husband!' All the families desperate for space and privacy. When the jury came back and there were those two words ` not guilty ` what was your immediate reaction? I` I` (SIGHS) I guess it was quite overwhelming. It was... a huge relief, first and foremost. I mean, it's a hell of a burden and a hell of a responsibility when someone entrusts you to represent them in a serious criminal case ` if you have a bad day at the office, your client can have really really serious consequences. If you have a good day at the office, you might be able to protect them from that. But this was no ordinary verdict. Within seconds, you had Kylee Guy jumping to her feet and yelling in the courtroom. I` I think there is a sanctity that should be in the courtroom, and I think it's sad when there are outbursts. But unfortunately they're all too common. But can't you understand that? I mean, this woman had lost her husband, she'd come to get justice, and she thought she was gonna get it. Absolutely, but I think... I do, and I'm not trying to be mean. And one can only have, you know, 100% sympathy for what she and the rest of the Guy family has been through. It's just everyone's worst nightmare. So, yeah, fair point. Freedom wasn't an option for Ewen Macdonald. He's locked up, waiting to be sentenced for the arson, wilful damage and other charges that are still supressed. At this point, though, Ewen Macdonald's got nothing in his life. Yes, he's got a not-guilty verdict, < but where's the up in all of this? Ewen will rebuild. Ewen is a young man. He's an extremely good and capable dairy farmer. He's got options. He's got a career and a life ahead of him. He's got four beautiful young children. Uh, he's` < Do they want to see their dad, though? < Do they want to see their dad, though? Yes, of course they do. And they have been seeing him right through. And they have been seeing him right through. What about his wife ` or his ex-wife ` Anna? What's going on there? I think there's a very strong bond between Anna and Ewen. I think it's been tested to the... You know, you don't need me to tell you that. I mean, can you imagine a greater strain on a relationship? And so where it goes from here, um... I... You know, I just wish them both well and I wish them both happiness. There is a huge perception with the public that you got him off that murder. Well, we don't think he 'got off' anything. We think, um, it was a proper verdict, and it was... You know, it was... I think people need to understand that only 11 people ` only 11 members of the public ` sat through every minute of this and had the evidence presented to them. You know, there are those that will think whatever they will. If he'd been convicted, the people that thought he was innocent will always think he was innocent regardless of that. And now that he's been acquitted, the people ` who know nothing or very little about the case ` who think he's guilty, well, the verdict's not gonna change their minds. I'm afraid it's just a reality. So that sentiment ` that people actually think that you got him off ` does that bother you? I guess I'd be in the wrong job if it did. The reality is, for Ewen Macdonald, there will always be a cloud of doubt hanging over him. Sure, until, you know, hopefully, uh, this crime is solved one day and the real offender is apprehended. Chook, chook, chook, chook, chook, chook, chookie! And when we come back, the King and his kingdom. (SQUEALS, LAUGHS) It's annoying when things aren't complete, especially when you've got all the symptoms of cold and flu. Lemsip All in One is designed to help a chesty cough,... headache, fever, blocked nose and sore throat. It's our most complete remedy ever. So you get all the help you need. Available in hot drinks or convenient capsules. Combine NZ's trusted brands so you don't lose a day. It's the day after the verdict, and the King's returned to his castle overlooking Lower Hutt. I see the public relations expert thinks... A chance for a debrief with fellow defence lawyer Peter Coles, who together with Greg King masterminded Ewen Macdonald's case. CELLPHONE RINGS Greg King. His phone's running hot ` lawyers, past clients and media all want to talk to him. Oh, yeah, it's` it's a relief. The 42-year-old defence lawyer can chalk up his most high-profile case in nearly 400 jury trials. Greg King seems to have worked on all the big ones in the past 20 years. I like being part of history. You know, I like... The thing that attracted me to this job was... the excitement of being` of seeing it. And, you know, you're dealing with the most interesting human dynamics and all of that type of drama. In 150 years, only 11 NZ criminal cases have been allowed to make an appeal to the Privy Council in London. Two of them have been Greg King's. It doesn't matter how evil the crime or the criminal; King will do the job. You have said yourself that you've had to defend some 'truly horrible bastards'. It's easy to do if you think the sod's guilty. It's really easy. When you think they might be innocent, you lose sleep. There must be some guilty people who have been allowed to walk free because of you. I assume so, but I don't know that. And that's the point. I` How can you say that? You must know. > No. There is no such thing, Amanda, as a witch-sniffer. I cannot look at someone and say whether they are guilty or innocent. I do not have that gift, and in my view, no one else in the world does either. But you must know when they're lying. You've watched all` But you must know when they're lying. You've watched all` Oh, no. Look, I can` I can judge and assess evidence as well as the next person. If someone came to me and says, 'Greg, I did this, but I want you to get me off it anyway,' I'm not acting for them ` simple as that. ...uh, screamed out to him... But there was one case that created more public vitriol than any other. In the process, knocked off his glasses, leaving him exposed and vulnerable. Clayton Weatherston stabbed his young victim, Sophie Elliott, 216 times. Weatherston's defence team of King and Judith Ablett-Kerr QC said he was provoked. There was public outrage. 'How dare Greg King and Judith Ablett-Kerr imply that, somehow, 'a young, defenceless woman was responsible for this?' If you're asking me, do I respect people's views who watch something on a television, who have no understanding or appreciation, who have lacked the insight to think, 'Well, hang on, if it was me or my child on trial for that, 'then I would the defence to be properly put,' as the judge directed it needed to be ` remember that. The defence of provocation was only allowed to be put in that case because the judge said it could be put. Yet that was responsible for an outpouring of hatred. There were death threats, abusive phone calls... Not` Not to me, so much, but... Not` Not to me, so much, but... Well, to Judith Ablett-Kerr. Not` Not to me, so much, but... Well, to Judith Ablett-Kerr. Yeah. Certainly people were not comfortable with what you were doing. No, but who cares? You know, that's not... At the end of the day, we do not conduct trials by an opinion poll. When he's not collecting clients, he's collecting art and up to 400 watches. His home is a gallery of contemporary works, including original Picassos and Hoteres. But King came from humble beginnings ` the second son born to teenage parents. Dad Jeff was a prison officer, and mum Jennie was from the flash side of town. We were both 18 when we got married, and then we were 19 when Greg was born. He was born talking. He was very articulate at a very young age. And he was always quite pedantic about things and... He challenged me a lot. Um, I think he learned his craft on me. Greg King was Head Boy at Turangi's Tongariro High School and had a passion for boxing. I was very proud of him in the boxing. About` It must have been about his second fight, he got knocked out of the ring, but he got back in the ring and won the fight, and, um... That was a mark of the young man` > That was a mark of the young man` > I was really proud. Yeah. Yeah. One of Jeff King's prison charges was convicted murder Arthur Allan Thomas, who would later be pardoned. His case kindled Greg King's interest in justice, and he set off for Otago University with what little his parents could give him. We gave him $1000 when he went away to university ` that's all we had ` and he paid us back within a year. Which he insisted upon. Which he insisted upon. I don't think we've ever given him money since. At 27, he was the youngest lawyer to ever represent someone in a murder trial. And he'd do his apprenticeship with Judith Ablett-Kerr. Judith is still the first person I phone when I'm having a bad day at the office And when I need to whine about something that's gone against me ` a decision or whatever ` Judith's the person that I always gravitate towards. King then followed a young lawyer called Catherine Milnes to Wellington. They married, set up home and their business together. Before this week, 20 people would ring every day wanting Greg King to act for them. Since the verdict, his website's gone to 100 hits to 1700 a day. That will be a battle. That will be a battle. It will be. What is it that will pull you to a case? > My availability. It's as simple as that. Yeah. My availability. It's as simple as that. Yeah. Simple as that? > I'm a taxi, uh, off a taxi rank. So if I've got a window of opportunity to take on a case, I'll take it on; if I haven't, I won't. I've always been really strict about not running causes. So I run a case, but I won't run a cause. But one cause he will fight is for underprivileged youth. He sponsors the Wainuiomata Rugby League's under-17 team. Sport, from my own background, I know it's just such a great leveller and great equaliser. There's no inequality in sport. Everyone's equal. And it's what you do on the sports field. And this is just` The spirit of this club has been something that's been just a wonderful thing to be part of. Time is precious with his two daughters, Millie and Pippa. And family is critical to Greg King, so his mum and dad live next door. Can you get the chickens out of the kitchen, darling? And on top of that, he's wrangling the family's four chooks, who are serial home-invaders. She's flying! And he's also chief butterfly handler. She's getting ready for her maiden flight. The monarch breeding is part of the family's menagerie of four chooks, four rescued cats and a dog called Holly. Here we go. But being domesticated doesn't come easily to this dad. Only this year, the family had its first holiday all together. (SQUEALS, LAUGHS) Greg King survives on just four hours' sleep a night, and his punishing schedule has cost him. He recently was diagnosed with type II diabetes. I'm a career narcissist. I think what I do is incredibly important. Is that what powers you? Is that what drives you to do your job? It's part of it. I don't think there's a greater sin that a society can commit than to send an innocent person to prison. Prison is a hellhole. You know, it's portrayed as some sort of, um, holiday camp; it's not. It's an absolute hellhole where people are stood over for their food, where people are bullied, where people are physically, often sexually abused. It is a hellhole. And to put an innocent person into that environment is something which, call me crazy, but I think should be best avoided. And what of the future? The King ruling from the bench, perhaps? I'm happy to play on the wing for the rest of my career. I don't ever want to be a referee. So, today, as we mentioned, is the second anniversary of Scott Guy's death. And we certainly do think of the family at this time. Well, chances are you have a smartphone or you're keen to get one. But there's growing concern that the more connected we become, the more our relationships suffer. You might even know someone living their life through a tiny LCD screen. I know I do. I use it every day, from, like, my alarm clock all the way through to my Facebook; it's my bus timetable ` it tells me when buses are coming; it reminds me to take my medication; shopping list; banking ` I use it to transfer funds over the internet. Are you addicted to it? > Are you addicted to it? > Probably. Almost half of us have one; the rest of us probably want one. In five years, say the experts, we will all have the gadget in our pocket that connects us to the rest of the world ` the so-called smartphone. Now, a few years ago, we'd never heard of it; now it's giving rise to a whole new kind of addiction. And some say it's harming our relationships. Janet McIntyre reports. # Mm, it's always better when we're together. Ever get the feeling you're not being listened to, even though we're more connected than ever? # Well, it's always better when we're together. # Yeah... # Our phone ` our must-have accessory; our new best friend. If I let it down for a second, something may happen and I may not be in the loop. If I'm putting out the rubbish, it's in my hand. Every time I'm at work, it's around. Hardly ever is it off. Are you addicted to it? > Are you addicted to it? > Probably. Seriously? Seriously? LAUGHS: Yeah, probably. WOMAN: Thank you for calling... I think you can safely predict that addiction-related issues with smartphone-based technology is gonna be a problem for us ` a fairly serious problem for us ` in the near future. You're through now. You're through now. You don't have to look back too far ` just 50 years ` Would you get me the Press Gallery in Wellington, please? 44274. ...to the arrival of the modern telephone... Hello? PHONE RINGS ...to understand why we love it so much... MALE REPORTER: They cost between $1500 and $4500. ...and why we want our phones to keep doing more. Most importantly, yes, they do have an off switch. Decade by decade, sleeker... FEMALE REPORTER: They come with a range of functions, including a message service. WOMAN: Hello. This is voicemail. ...and smarter. The 3G network put the internet on our phones and into our pockets. FEMALE REPORTER: Diehards around the world have been queuing up for the new iPhone. Just four years ago, the first iPhone was launched to the world in NZ. Those outside know their wait is almost over. THUD! Back before then, life was so complicated; so cluttered and slow. Just to stay connected took so much effort. And to stay organised and entertained, you needed so much stuff. What was it called, again? Now, apparently, all you need is this. I use it every day ` from, like, my alarm clock all the way through to my Facebook; it's my bus timetable ` it tells me when the buses are coming; or, like, reminding me to take my medication at night; shopping list; banking ` I use it to transfer funds over the internet. Samantha Ford (22) is part of the generation that grew up with the sound of dial-up. MODEM BUZZES, WHIRRS Now it's the bing of her smartphone,... PHONE BEEPS ...the sound of someone wanting her attention, that she lives for. If I get a text message, it does kind of drive me a little bit mental if I can't check it. It comes to the kitchen table with me for dinner, and it comes to the bench with me when I make breakfast. Go to bed with you? > Go to bed with you? > Yes. (LAUGHS) It, um, charges next to my pillow, so, yeah, it does. You say you use it to remind you about your medication? Yeah. Um, I use it to remind me to take my pill at night. That's quite important. Don't wanna forget that. So how attached do you say you are to your phone? I think I'm pretty attached to it. It's generally attached to my hip at all times. It's one of those things that, if I leave it behind at home for the day, I feel like I'm completely lost. Occasionally she even uses it to arrange actual meetings with her friends ` all of them embarking on professional careers. Who is the most obsessive with their phones among all of you? > Who is the most obsessive with their phones among all of you? > (LAUGHS) < Samantha. But not by much. < My dad will always tell me to put my phone away and that he's trying to have a conversation with me but I'm not listening. I am listening. He just doesn't understand the whole texting thing, I guess. We recently went on a road trip down to the Coromandel, and I was in the passenger seat. (LAUGHS) (LAUGHS) And because you can't drive while you're... can't text while you're driving any more, I was on text duty for her. So I was sitting there, sending her texts. So she's dictating her messages to you? So she's dictating her messages to you? ...to me, yep, to send to three different people. to send to three different people. (LAUGHS) My phone addiction has, like, taken a toll on my sleep as well. You don't wanna be unreliable, or whatever. I don't even know. It's ridiculous ` like, texting someone back at 12... like, in the middle of the night. It doesn't matter who it is. Yeah, you get kind of tired. We've stopped living in the present, being mindful of where we are right now. It's always about what we're planning to do next or sharing with someone else something that just happened, instead of living in the moment. There is that element of wanting to spread our knowledge... Clinical psychologist Amanda Gordon, who's studied smartphone use in Australia, says our attention to our phones is harming our relationships. We're vigilant all the time, just in case a message comes through. So I could be having a very important conversation with my husband ` about one of the children; about something that's going on in my life ` if there is a bing,... PHONE BEEPS ...people almost invariably stop attending to the important thing and attend instead to the bing, as if a bing is more important than what's happening right now. So paying so much attention to that binging, to the beeps, is very dangerous for relationships. 23 past 12. It's lunchtime. We're taking your lunchtime requests. Lana Searle has been captured by more than binging on her smartphone. 'Yeah, it was an addiction.' At the moment, it's 11 degrees. By day, she hosts a radio show in the Waikato. By night, she's a farmer; at least, she was ` addicted to the FarmVille game that kept her waking in the night. The FarmVille game was the game where you could buy pigs and stuff and grow corn and things like that. You'd eventually be able to harvest your crops and get more money, which would you mean you could buy more crops, make a bigger farm and have more money. And that was the one that I'd set my alarm to at five past 2 and five past 4 in the mornings. To do what? To check my crops. (LAUGHS) Because if you leave them too late, they go rotten and you can't get money for them. But... this wasn't real money. But... this wasn't real money. (CHUCKLES) No, it's not real money. So why were you doing this? So why were you doing this? I was addicted to that game. I was. Who sets their alarm clock at five past 2 and five past 4 in the morning to check crops that don't even exist? Someone with an addiction. (CHUCKLES) This is a... a new addiction, or a new, uh, concern. And the long-term effects of people constantly having these devices is not understood. Martin Cocker, head of Netsafe ` the organisation looking out for our safety on the internet ` is still assessing the impact of the smartphone. What we certainly see is people who use technology at the expense of other things that are important in their life. For young people, students, it'll be playing games or staying connected on Facebook at the expense of their homework. For older people, um, it'll be often at the expense of their work; their career. < What did your friends and family have to say about the way you were playing these games? Oh yeah, they were the ones that intervened ` the friends. They said, 'Look, I know it's not affecting our life completely, 'but you've got to stop setting your alarm and doing this.' That was the worst-case scenario ` waking up when I was asleep to do it. VIDEO GAME MUSIC PLAYS The one thing that does concern me is what happens to these kids now that are coming through school, getting the internet at 4 or 5 years old? They're already more savvy than you or I are on a computer. What sort of addictive, you know, um... addictive tendencies are they gonna have towards these sort of games a little later on, if not already? That scares me. Cos I was just a little naive and got caught up in the moment. But, God, you could get really wrapped up in it if you knew what you were doing. Young people love technology. You know, little kids will play on tablet devices. Young people will use their mobile phones all day and all night if they are given the opportunity, because they are connecting with people and giving them constant feedback and a feeling of value. WOMAN: R,... D,... S! Certainly for very young children, you know, we should be keeping them away from technology mostly; giving them technology in small doses, because there are things that are much more important for them to be developing, other than technological knowledge. For the rest of us, there's no getting away from it. With access to email through our phones, we somehow feel compelled to keep working, even in our downtime. People feel intensely pressured. I think the whole means of communication has confused people. Just because it's possible to receive a message, doesn't mean you have to act on it straight away. Why are people so willing to work in their own time; be available on the phone 24-7? These things sort of crept up on us, but very quickly. There was no training given to people about how to manage the excess of technology; it happened first. And we're sort of responding to it and, you know, breathing quickly and hoping we can get through. Um, but the damage has been done for some people. Some people are never going to be able to get back to the idea of, 'There are some hours in the day that I'm allowed off.' You know, that old-fashioned idea of a sabbath day ` a day that you can have a break from work. For most people, it's just disappeared. So do we need to be thinking about protocols about what's reasonable and what's not? I think it would be wonderful if people started having contracts with work that included the use of technology. It used to be that if you were on call, you got special allowances; you might get time in lieu; you got something instead. Nowadays, people are expected to be available at all times to think about work ` just to think about work. I don't know whether people realise, but when they're thinking about work, it's distracting their attention from whatever else they might like to be thinking about. It's early days, they say. Technology is evolving so quickly, there's barely time to consider the impact of one kind before we've moved on to the next. While some of us just try to keep pace, twenty-somethings have grown up riding the wave. It's all they know. I don't think it means that our phones are our lives. < No. < No. I think it's just necessary for today's day and age. You need to be in contact with people. Sometimes you can't pick up the phone and have a conversation with someone. It's easy to just send 10 words in a text message. What would life be like without your phones? > Oh,... sometimes I wish we lived in a generation where we didn't have cell phones. We would see people more in real life, I think. We would have a smaller group of friends. We would have a smaller group of friends. Why don't you make the effort? > Cos it's too easy. How do you imagine today's young kids, who are on their phones? How are they gonna look when they're 20? (CHUCKLES) Well, that is a difficult question to answer, actually. They're going to be extremely connected. They're going to be used to being connected all of the time; to having services available to them instantaneously. It's unlikely that they'll understand the concept of 'switching off' the same way that we do today, because it just won't really be an option in their daily lives not to have a smartphone and the tools that it brings with it. It may be that relationships will have to look very different, because people will only be able to communicate in very short, sharp bursts. You know, the day of sustained communication might be gone. Um, or it may be that people feel so relieved when they have the opportunity for good, sustained conversation that they'll crave it. We really are at a teething stage, I think, with all of this. We have to think, without panic, without catastrophising, about how to ensure that the smartphone remains our tool and that it's not our master. # Yeah, it's always better when we're together. # Yeah, I love that story, because it is so important. Now, a final word of advice from Martin Cocker ` your smartphone is not a secure device. In the hands of a thief, all your personal information ` including your banking connections, if you bank that way ` is easily accessible. So, as well as ensuring you have a lock on your phone, he recommends getting security software, as you would for a home computer. Well, up next, Katy Perry ` one of the planet's biggest pop stars. # I kissed a girl, and I liked it. # The taste of her cherry Chapstick. # I think people love the idea of a good girl gone bad. There's some classics of your mum saying she wouldn't watch this and` There's some classics of your mum saying she wouldn't watch this and` Wouldn't watch MTV if I was on it? Yeah. Next question, though ` what happens when your daughter is on MTV? Next question, though ` what happens when your daughter is on MTV? I don't watch it. She's one of the world's biggest pop stars. Katy Perry might be the daughter of fundamentalist Christian preachers, but she's funny, real and very honest. And in this exclusive interview with Australia's Channel 7, nothing's off limits, including the breakdown of her marriage to comedian Russell Brand. And it comes on the eve of a warts-and-all documentary about her rise to megafame and fortune. Molly Meldrum talks with Katy Perry. WILD APPLAUSE Oh, my, how are you again? Oh, my, how are you again? Very well. Nice to see you. I'll have one of those. I am so glad you're back, and you're well, and you're here, and you're alive. Thanks for coming here. > 'Sitting across from a gorgeous Katy Perry, I'm as nervous as I've ever been.' So, be gentle with me because this is my first interview... So, be gentle with me because this is my first interview... I know. ...I've done for a long time. ...I've done for a long time. Well, I-I will be extra special gently... gentle. # You make me feel like I'm living a teenage dream. # I've brought you a gift. I've brought you a gift. Oh, wow. Well, that's very cool. Yeah. It's actually really cool, and not everyone has one, just my favourite people. Thank you so much for believing in my weirdness. # Now look at me. # This is the part of me... # It seems like a short time of your career that you've achieved so much. Five number ones from one album. Was that hard to take in? Um, I never really celebrate in the moment because I'm too... too in the moment. I'm too busy sometimes. You are busy, I'll give you that. You are busy, I'll give you that. I don't mean that in a rude way, I just` No, I mean, I can tell you're a workaholic, right? But I won't say that. I don't think it's workaholic, I think I just love what I do. Yoo-hoo! Yoo-hoo! MAN: Tour's starting. My dream has always been the stage; to be on stage and to hear all the people sing along with me. I took the best pieces from the tour of last year and put them into this film. OMG. And just, you know, hopefully, people can know my story, but experience, like, tour and all the great bits, and feel like they're actually there. and all the great bits, and feel like they're actually there. I got tears in my eyes. Did you?! Did you?! Yeah, I did. You know, it's OK to feel. I love that. (GROANS) I felt like a bit of a wuss` I think you're more of a man since you cried at my film. The atmosphere I grew up in was 100% Christian. I started singing in church. I never really had another plan. Once my dad discovered I had a talent, he threw me on stage, and it was, like, 'Sing, sing for the church,' but I was so happy to do it. I'm a show-off, you know, I always was. I'm a middle child. Well, the poster, it's a classic shot of you looking into the mirror, holding a hairbrush. Yeah, like every... every girl. I mean, to this day, sometimes I'll shut my door and still dance in my room. and still dance in my room. Yeah? Yeah. Of course. Growing up, you do a lot of that. You dance in your room by yourself to your favourite songs. You grab a hairbrush and you, like, simulate that you're a singer, or you're that singer singing that song, and I did that growing up, and I thought that was perfect for the poster. A really good idea would be to make a microphone shaped like a brush. < Yeah, it would too. < Yeah, it would too. I'm going to do that now. Katy has an older sister and a younger brother. They were raised in southern California. Her mum and dad are both born-again Christian preachers. < Your mum had a policy of what music you could listen to and what you couldn't listen to. Did you find that restrictive at all? Well, yeah, it was like a game, though. It was like I was smuggling in music all the time in my little knapsack or my purse. At the bottom of my purse I'd put a CD that I had bought, and I'd stuff things over it. < Your sister bought them as well, didn't she? < Your sister bought them as well, didn't she? Oh yeah, she did that too. Um, but it was always kind of like this, like, game, like I was bringing in a bomb of sorts. And that's how I discovered music. I feel like I was never allowed to even think for myself. And I, like, all of a sudden, my heart wants to do all kinds of things. I want to travel and experience other things outside of my comfort zone. I'm just probably going through a rebel phase. I don't know. I have all this footage of me when I first moved to LA saying all these things I want to do, and the goals I want to achieve. I wrote so many songs. I wrote so many songs. Good songs, bad songs, really really bad songs in order to write the OK songs. # This was never the way I planned. # Not my intention. # 'I Kissed A Girl'. 'I Kissed A Girl'. Yes. Where did that come from? Where did that come from? It was inspired by this girl I grew up with in Santa Barbara, um, who is just someone that is so gorgeous that she, uh... It doesn't matter if she was... You know, it was a girl. # I kissed a girl. # I liked it. # The taste of her cherry Chapstick. # I think people love the idea of a good girl gone bad. There's some classics of your mum saying that she wouldn't watch this` There's some classics of your mum saying that she wouldn't watch this` Wouldn't watch MTV if I was on it? < Yeah. Next question, though. What happens when your daughter is on MTV? > Next question, though. What happens when your daughter is on MTV? > I don't watch it. You wouldn't watch me, Mom? You wouldn't watch me, Mom? No. (LAUGHS) > (LAUGHS) > Great (!) I'm not going to watch if you've got half your clothes off. < Did you feel at any stage when you were writing these songs, uh, < maybe people think you're not respecting your religion or church? Um, I think I grew and changed and evolved from where I came from. And it was my own personal journey, and I was just speaking the truth of what I knew. Came out of the gamut with I Kissed A Girl,... Came out of the gamut with I Kissed A Girl,... < Yeah, yeah. ...and I've shot whipped cream out of my tits. It trips me out to see that back-footage sometimes, because... because then I knew exactly what I wanted to do. Today I know exactly what I want to do. MAN: How ya feeling, Katy? > MAN: How ya feeling, Katy? > Great. I'm really proud of my sister who is scared of heights. My sister, not only does she work hard on tour, she likes to play hard on tour. ALL SCREAM Any time we go to a city where we have a day off, she always likes me to explore something fun with her. Yeah, it's weird. # Baby, you're a firework. # Come on, let your colours burst. It is one of my favourite songs. It is one of my favourite songs. Thank you. And I pump it up, and the whole neighbours and everyone... the whole of Richmond, where I live in` I'm glad the world is singing along to that song. If there's anything I leave in my legacy, it would be that song. That's my epitaph. # Fire... # Fire... # Boom, boom, boom. # Even brighter than the moon, moon, moon. # Well, up next, Katy opens up about her doomed two-year marriage to comedian and self-confessed former sex addict Russell Brand. I'll take you back to a moment in Brazil,... I'll take you back to a moment in Brazil,... SOFTLY: Yeah. ...where you are very emotionally upset. ...where you are very emotionally upset. Yeah. # I didn't feel # the fairy tale feeling. # It's like, 'Pull your shit together. You gotta go onstage and give 'em that smile that they came to see.' Meet Shelby and Greg. Hello. Hello. Hello. Whoa! They're both looking for better car-tons to get round in. Greg... is an egg. TYRES SQUEAL If only he'd been like Shelby and thought more about safety. CRASH! CRASH! Sorry! If you want to buy a new car, check safety first at our cracking new website. So, Katy's a pop star on the world stage. She's sold 11 million albums and earned eight Grammy nominations. She's pretty sure her life is close to perfect. But her first marriage is about to end as quickly as it began. # Even brighter than the moon, moon, moon. # < Was your dream coming true then? My dreams are always coming true cos I achieve them, I go for them. My dreams are always coming true cos I achieve them, I go for them. < Right. I don't sit around and let them come to me cos... No, I understand that. Um, also, at this stage you were meeting people. Um, one was Russell. 'A year after they met, Katy married British comedian Russell Brand. '14 months later, Russell filed for divorce. 'Katy appeared heartbroken.' < Did you feel maybe your life was going down? No. No. You looked so sad, you know. You know, when something goes on in a relationship, it's between the two people, really. So it's not really everyone else's business. Um, but I still have a lot to look forward to. Now, this is where the tears start welling in my eyes. Now, this is where the tears start welling in my eyes. Aw. I came out all right, I think. I came out all right, I think. < Was it hard, though? Of course! You know, sometimes there are obstacles in your life. There were obstacles early on, trying to get out of the shelterness of my family, and I don't think that I'm done with the obstacles. And I think that's OK. I think everything is a lesson learned. There's nothing I regret because you can't buy a lesson, and they are so valuable. And I apply them to my life, and I learn from them. 'Katy was in the middle of a sold-out world tour.' I'll take you back to a moment in Brazil... I'll take you back to a moment in Brazil... Yeah. ...where you are very emotionally upset, and they're deciding, 'Well, do we cancel it?' You know, there's 100,000 people... You know, there's 100,000 people... ...and imagine all those babysitters at home. < That's right. I always equal that. I'm, like, 'Well, if there's 10,000 people, then there are babysitters, 'and then the other people...' # I didn't feel the fairy-tale feeling. No. # I was just feeling, like, I had to get through it. It's, like, 'Pull your shit together. 'You've got to go onstage and give them that smile that they came to see.' And it-it was OK for me, you know, because sometimes in life when people ask you, 'How are you?' you just say, 'Fine.' ALL: # We'll be young forever. # You make me feel like I'm living a teenage dream. # The way you turn me on... # You really feel with this that you are part of the concert, that you're in the front row, or even onstage. Do you want to be onstage? Do you want to be onstage? ALL: Yeah! Breathe, breathe, breathe, breathe! And then you spend an hour with your fans, and you must have been absolutely buggered... Buggered. I gotta go pee. The only reason I'm here is because of them, and they know that,... The only reason I'm here is because of them, and they know that,... < Yeah? ...so I owe them. Katy! Katy! Hi. Katy! Hi. Hey. How are you? < So, uh, what was Katy like as a kid? < So, uh, what was Katy like as a kid? A show-off. I'm a show-off. I know that. I'm a show-off. I know that. I know it. Attention-getter. I tell you what, the film ` you're not the star in it. I think your grandma is the star. My grandma takes the cake, right? My grandma takes the cake, right? I think she took the cake. Grandma! That's OK, she deserves it. She's 91. That's OK, she deserves it. She's 91. < Yeah. Amazing. She started it all. That's what she says at Thanksgiving dinner. 'I'm thankful I started it all.' And we turned out OK. Yes. Yes. Kind of. As far as I know. # Now look at me, I'm spark-a-ling. # < What was your dream then? < What was your dream then? My dream then is exactly what I'm living now. # This is the part of me that you're never ever gonna take away from me. # < Yeah? Yeah. And maybe even a little bit bigger. Definitely a lot more complex. Well, first of all, this is a wig. I was just looking for a fantastic life, and somehow it turned into a very, um, interesting fairy tale along the way. It's been a delight talking to you. It's been a delight talking to you. Thank you, Molly. Thank you so much, darling. Now, before you go... Thank you so much, darling. Now, before you go... Yeah? Ohhhhhhh. A Molly special. Howdy. Looks good on you. Looks good on you. Thank you. All right. All right. I'll see you in Australia. All right. I'll see you in Australia. In Australia, all right. Kua mutu te mahi naianei. That's our show for tonight. Do take a look at our Facebook page. You'll find us at Sunday TVNZ. Or email us. We'd love to hear your comments. Have a great week. We'll see you next Sunday. Nga mihi nui, hei kona.