Tonight on Close Up ` some call them invisible children. I think society doesn't necessarily see them. And even though they haven't done the crime, often they're judged. Their parents are incarcerated, so why are they being alienated? I felt as though it was always my fault. We meet those dedicated to giving these kids a brighter future. If we really look at them, it's, like, 'Help, I might have to get involved.' Due to the live nature of Close Up, captions for some items may be incomplete. ONE News captions by Jessica Boell and Richard Edmunds. Close Up captions by Lauren Strain and Pippa Jefferies. Good evening. They're called the 'invisible children' ` the kids often ignored or overlooked because mum or dad is in prison. Statistics tell us that children of criminals are highly likely to end up in jail too, and right now there are 8000 inmates locked up in our prisons. But the news isn't all bad for these stigmatised kids. With an eye to their future, Prison Fellowship has begun a programme designed to break the criminal cycle. Jehan Casinader visited the holiday camp with a difference. SAD MUSIC I've heard them referred to as the invisible children. I think society doesn't see them. Even though they haven't done the crime, often they are judged. If we really look at them, then it's, like, 'Help, I might have to be involved,' and that can be scary. We can't show you their faces, you wouldn't recognise their names, but some of their parents have made headlines. These are the kids of current prisoners. They've lost a parent, but so many other kids have lost a parent, whether its through divorce or death, so it's kind of like, 'Oh, yeah, same old, same old.' But here's a sobering statistic ` a child who has a parent in prison is six times more likely to end up in prison themselves. There is that high chance that they will offend and just create that whole cycle over and over again. Prison Fellowship wants to break that cycle. CHILDREN SING ADELE'S 'SOMEONE LIKE YOU' This is a holiday camp for prisoners' kids ` one of the first in the country. For some kids, it's a welcome break from day-to-day life. We have mean people at our school that make fun of people, like, that make fun of people. Do people make fun of you? Yeah. And what do you they say to you? They say mean stuff about my dad. For some children, they're not told what has happened and they just pick up little bits. And there's a whole secrecy around it. Do you know how long he's been there for? Quite a long time. And do you get to see him at all? Sometimes. Sometimes? Is it tough not being able to see your dad very often? Yeah. Sometimes he's out, like, in the open, but sometimes he's behind glass. And what's it like seeing Dad behind glass? It's not that fun, cos sometimes he's, like, naughty. Principal Youth Court judge Andrew Becroft has long warned that many young crims have followed in one of their parents' footsteps. The children, the young men we see in the Youth Court have had short, sharp shocks all their lives. Dad's long gone; Dad's in prison. Look at Raurangi Marino, the 16-year-old who raped and attacked a 5-year-old girl in a Turangi campground. It was a case that shocked NZ. But he came from a dysfunctional family. Both his parents were involved in gangs, and his dad was in prison. With one parent in jail, many children see changes in their home life. Some are blended families because once one parent has gone to prison, the remaining one meets someone new. Others, it can be single parent with however many children they had. But added on to that there's often a shame factor. Brent knows what that's like. I haven't got many pieces left. When he was growing up, his dad was in prison. I felt as though it was my fault ` it was always my fault we weren't a family and everyone else had these families. And I felt different than everyone else. Now Brent's a volunteer for Pillars, a charity that supports prisoners' kids. Brent mentors a boy (12). He's a good kid. There's no doubt he's bright. He loves his sport, loves his rugby. If we don't look after these kids and put them on the straight and narrow and give them some sort of guidance, they're the ones that mainstream NZ are going to be paying for to be in prison. And at around 90 grand a year per prisoner, it's a big cost. I think it's a wake-up call. # I wish nothing but the best for you too. # Pip says what the kids need most is positive role models, the support of other families in their community and the freedom to not be judged. Think about how do we see these kids, because if we want to see crime reduce countrywide, we have to be that fence at the top of the cliff. So, a good idea, but will it actually work? Mike Templeton's a former inmate whose son is now doing time. YOU'VE TURNED YOURSELF AROUND. I HAVE INDEED WHY CAN'T EVERYONE? IT'S A COMPLEX QUESTION I THINK IT COMES FROM A LOT OF AREAS. IT'S HOW YOU NURTURED IN THOSE EARLY YEARS FOR ME, I GREW UP QUITE WELL, WITH GOOD PARENTS, NURTURING. WHEN I CAME UNSTUCK, AROUND 12, 13, I WAS ABLE TO COME BACK TO SOMETHING GIVEN TO ME AT AN EARLY AGE. A LOT OF PEOPLE DON TH AVE THAT OPPORTUNITY HOW DID THAT UNFOLD WITH YOUR SON? THAT'S A BIG STORY I WAS AN ABESENTEE FATHER. WHNE DYLAN WAS 3 OR 4 I WAS ABSENT FROM HIS LIFE DYLAN WOULD COME TO SEE ME IN PRISON. AND I THINK OSOMETHING HAPPENS WHEN YOU SEE YOUR DAD IN PRISON AND IT'S NOT A HOSPITAL PLACE, AS MUCH AS WE TRY TO MAKE THEM INVITING. SOMETHING HAPPENS TO CHILDREN THAT AGE WHY IS DAD NOT HERE I THINK SOMETIMES WE DEVELOPO AN ANTI-AUTHORIAN APPROACH. SO HOW DO OYU GET AROUND THAT, THOIUGH, THE STIGMA? THAT'S JUST HOW LIFE WORKS. I THINK ON EO F THE PROBLEMS IS PEOPLE BELIEVE YOU'RE ALONE I THINK CAMPS LIKE THIS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, IT BRINGS PEOPLE TOGETHER. SO A SENSE OF BEING TOGETHER, I THINK , IS IMPORTANT. I THINK ALSO THE INSTUITAITON OF THE CAMP ITSELF ` CHILDREN CAN SEE A SAFE PLATFORM TO DISCUSS THESE THINGS JUST ASKING QUESTIONS ` WHY IS THIS AND THAT? WHY DON'T KIDS SEE THEIR DADS IN PRISON AND THINK THEY WON'T DO THAT? I THINK IT COMES BACK TO, WHNEN YOU SEE DAD IN PRISON, YOU CAN'T MAKE SENSE OF IT SO DAD HAS SOMEHOW BEEN TAKEN AWAY AND KIDS DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FATHER WHO MAKES A HORRIFIC MISTAKE, VERSUS THE CHILD WHO GROWS UP WITH A FATHER WHO'S IN AND OUT? HE'S THE SAME PERSON FUNDAMENTALLY, VERSUS THE KID WHO DOESN'T HAVE A FATHER ALL THE TIME? IF DAD'S NEVER AROUND, IT GOES IN DEEPER. DO YOU MAKE PROGRESS? ALL THESE INTERVIEW ABOUT RECIDIVISM? DO YOU ACTUALLY SEE OYU'RE MAKING A DIFFERENCE? YES, YOU DO. PEOPLE MAKE A DIFFERENCE. NATURE VS NURTURE? IS IT NATURE AND YOU CNA'T FIX IT? NO, YOU CAN'T FIX NATURE. N PEOPLE ARE BORN WITH A PROPENSITY TO DO RIGHT OR WRONG. WE'RE BORN AS PEOPLE WHO TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF THINGS HOW WE NURTURE PEOPLE, THAT INCLINES THEM TOWARD THE GOOD THINGS IN LIFE KEEOP UP THE GOOD WORK. Up next ` some smokers are unhappy with the cost of smoking. Do they really need an online forum, or more help to kick the habit? And the creative genius behind the black brute ` I think it just looks mean. It's a mean boat. the monster cat Team NZ will take to the next America's Cup Challenge. What's up with the tobacco industry? Has it gone soft? Launching an online forum for smokers, wanting to hear from them, asking them if they're annoyed at price hikes and other moves to make them quit. Phillip Morris, the tobacco giant behind the new website, wants to talk. They don't want to debate, though, so we'll hear from a leading anti-smoking advocate shortly about what he thinks of their social media moves. But first Christopher Bishop from Phillip Morris. I asked him if the company was out to pick a fight. LOOK, IT'S THE START OF A WEBSITE WHERE ADULT SMOKERS CAN GO ONLINE AND JOIN UP AND LEARN ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT THEY'VE TOLD US THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT AND POTENTIALLY DOWN THE LINE MAKE THEIR VOICE KNOWN. AND MAKE THEIR VOICE KNOWN TO WHO? MAKE THEIR VOICE KNOWN TO THE GOVERNMENT AND DECISION-MAKERS. THEY THINK REGULATION BASICALLY HAS GONE TOO FAR, AND THEY WANT AN ABILITY TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE ISSUES AND ALSO EXPRESS CONCERN ABOUT THEM. DO THEY THINK THAT, OR DO YOU THINK THAT? LIKE ANY BUSINESS, WE TALK TO OUR CUSTOMERS, AND WE TALK TO OUR RETAILERS AS WELL. AND WHAT THEY TELL US IS THAT THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THESE THINGS. THEY THINK THE BALANCE HAS GONE TOO FAR WHEN IT COMES TO WHERE YOU CAN AND CAN'T SMOKE. AND WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE DISPLAY BANS, THEY CAN'T SEE THE POINT OF THAT. THEY TELL US THAT IT WON'T MAKE THEM STOP SMOKING. WELL, YEAH, BUT IT'S NOT DESIGNED TO MAKE THEM STOP SMOKING. IT'S DESIGNED TO STOP PEOPLE FROM STARTING, AND THAT'S AN EFFECTIVE WAY OF DOING IT, ISN'T IT? I THINK IF YOU TALK TO THE PUBLIC HEALTH COMMUNITY, THEY WOULD TELL YOU AN IMPORTANT PART IS TO TRY AND MAKE PEOPLE STOP SMOKING. BUT THERE ISN'T ANY EVIDENCE THAT THAT WOULD ACTUALLY HAPPEN. I MEAN, THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE TRIED HAVE NOT SEEN ANY REDUCTIONS IN YOUTH SMOKING. WHAT ABOUT THE TAX INCREASES? HAVE THEY GONE TOO FAR IN YOUR VIEW? WHAT THE CUSTOMERS ARE TELLING US IS THAT THEY HAVE, THAT THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE 10% HIKES COMING UP IN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS. THEY TELL US THAT THEY SWITCH TO CHEAPER BRANDS RATHER THAN STOP SMOKING. BUT ALSO WHAT RETAILERS TELL US IS THAT AS THE PRICE OF CIGARETTES GOES EVER HIGHER, THEY ARE INCREASINGLY FEELING AT RISK IN THEIR STORE. AND YOU THINK ABOUT THE PRICE OF CIGARETTES WHEN IT HITS, SAY, $20 A PACK, THAT MAKES A PACK OF CIGARETTES VERY LUCRATIVE` YOU'RE KIDDING ME. SO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ROB DAIRIES? SO YOU'RE HONESTLY TELLING ME DAIRY OWNERS ARE NOW WORRIED THEY'RE GOING TO GET SHOT FOR A PACKET OF CIGARETTES? YOU SEE` IS THAT PART OF YOUR CAMPAIGN? YOU SEE IT ALL THE TIME. IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE TRADE FOR A LOT OF SMALL BUSINESSES, AND WHAT THEY SAY TO US IS THAT THEY'RE WORRIED THAT AS THE PRICE GOES EVER HIGHER, THEY'RE INCREASINGLY AT RISK IN THEIR STORE. AREN'T THEY MORE WORRIED THAT AS THE PRICE GOES HIGHER, THEIR INCOME GOES DOWN? AND THEREFORE AS THE PRICE GOES UP, YOUR INCOME GOES DOWN AS WELL, AND THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT? WE'RE JUST RESPONDING TO CONSUMER DEMANDS. IF SMOKING IS THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF PREVENTABLE DEATH IN THIS COUNTRY, WHAT ROLE DOES THIS SITE PLAY IN CHANGING OR CONTRIBUTING AWARENESS TO ANY OF THAT? WELL, PHILLIP MORRIS FULLY ACKNOWLEDGES THAT SMOKING IS A DANGEROUS ACTIVITY, AND I THINK ALMOST EVERY SMOKER IN THE COUNTRY WOULD FULLY AGREE WITH THAT. BUT THE WEBSITE IS DESIGNED TO ALLOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THE DECISION TO SMOKE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT CONCERN THEM. OK, SO HAVING SAID THAT, WE WANT TO GO SMOKE-FREE BY 2025. DO YOU HAVE A VIEW ON THAT? DOES THE COMPANY HAVE A VIEW ON THAT? WELL, THE COMPANY VIEW, I THINK, IS THAT THAT'S UNREALISTIC BECAUSE 18% TO 19% OF NZERS SMOKE TODAY. IS IT REALLY CREDIBLE THAT IN 13 YEARS' TIME, WE'LL BE SMOKE-FREE? AND I GUESS THE OTHER QUESTION IS DO WE WANT A REGULATED MARKET LIKE WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT, WHERE A RESPONSIBLE COMPANY SELLS CIGARETTES THAT ARE TAXED? OR DO WE WANT A BLACK MARKET IN CIGARETTES THAT'S RUN BY ORGANISED CRIMINALS WHERE THE CIGARETTES THAT PEOPLE BUY AREN'T TAXED`? IS THAT`? SO AFTER THEY FINISH ROBBING THE DAIRIES, WE'RE NOW GONNA RUN A BLACK MARKET. IS THAT THE OTHER PART OF THIS CAMPAIGN? WELL, THERE'LL ALWAYS BE A DEMAND FOR TOBACCO PRODUCTS. WHEN THEY BANNED ALCOHOL, A BLACK MARKET SPRUNG UP. AND I'D SUGGEST TO YOU THAT THE SAME THING WOULD HAPPEN IN NZ. BUT I THINK THE IMPORTANT POINT IS THAT THE WEBSITE'S BEEN DESIGNED TO ALLOW CONSUMERS TO EXPRESS CONCERN ABOUT ALL THESE ISSUES, AND TO MAKE THEIR VOICE` I'M WONDERING IF THIS JUST ISN'T TOO LATE. I'M WONDERING IF THIS WASN'T 10 YEARS AGO, WHEN YOU GUYS DIDN'T TALK PUBLICALLY, AND YOU DIDN'T ADVOCATE, AND YOU DIDN'T LOBBY PUBLICLY. AND SUDDENLY, BAM, WE'VE GOT A WEBSITE, AND BAM, WE'RE TALKING. AND IT'S ALL TOO LATE. WELL, PERHAPS THAT'S TRUE, BUT THE WEBSITE'S BEEN ESTABLISHED NOW. THE RESPONSE SO FAR HAS BEEN VERY ENCOURAGING FROM SMOKERS. THEY DO WANT A VOICE, AND THEY DO WANT THE ABILITY TO LEARN ABOUT THE ISSUES. Dr Marewa Glover is the director of the Centre for Tobacco Control Research. She's with me. DO YOU SEE THIS AS A FIGHT BROUGHT OTYOU? NO, THEY NEED TO FIND NEW AVENUES TO GET THEIR PRODUCT BEFORE THE PUBLIC GETTING PRIMETIME TV ` THIS IS VALUABLE SPACE. IN THAT, WHAT IF THE ADVERTISE AND PEOPLE THINK THEY HAVE A POINT? THEIR POINT IS...? THAT SMOKERS ARE PICKED ON AND ALIENATED IN SOCIETY. SOME SMOKERS DO FEEL PICKED ON, AND THEIR OPINIONS ARE INPORTANT THEIR OPINIONS ARE IMPORTANT. WE SURVEY. THAT'S WHAT RESEARCHERS DO. WE ARE REALLY INTERESTED BECAUSE OF THE BIAS WE WON'T' BE ABLE TO TRUST ANYTHING ON THE WEBSITE WHINGING ISN'T VALID RESEARCH? YOU DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S REAL SMOKERS. IS THE DEBATE A LOST CAUSE IN YOUR MIND? ARE WE SO FAR TO A SMOKE FREE NZ? THE TOBACCO COMPANIES WILL RIGHT. THEY HAVE TO FIGHT. NZ IS WORLD LEADING IN CONTROL. WE SET PRECEDENTS. IT'S IMPORTANT TO NIP IT IN THE BUD BEFORE OUTHER COUNTRIES [PICK UP ON WHAT WE DO AUSTRALIA IS ACTUALLY BEATING US NOW AND SETTING PRECEDENTS. WITH THE PLAIN PACKAGING PRECEDENT. IT'S GOING TO COURT, PRESUMABLY. THIS IS A WORLD FIGHT YOU WOULD DEFEND THEIR RIGHT TO ADVOCATE THIER CORNER. IT'S A HISTORICAL MIKTAKE THAT IT'S A LEGAL PRODUCT IT'S A FACT. IT'S A LEGAL PRODUCT. WE WILL PUSH TO CHNAGE THAT LAW BUT THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO CONSIDER DIFFERNENT PEOPLE'S POINT OF VIEWS. WE'RE IN A DIPLOMATIC SOCIETY YOU HAVE TO BALANCE IT AND BALANCE THE SMOKER'S OPINIONS THEY'RE LOSING, THOUGH, AREN'T THEY? THE NON-SMOKERS ARE BEATING THEM. THE SMOKERS MAINLY WANT TO GIVE UP. WE CAN'T KEEP WITH THE DEMAND FOR SUPPORT. WHAT ABOUT THE ARGUMENT THAT SMOKERS PAY THEIR PAY IN TERMS OF TAX? NEARLY, NOT QUITE IT'S BILLIONS. IT'S NOT QUITE PAYING THEIR WAY. WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS GOING? ARE WE GOING TO BE SMOKE-FREE BY 2025? WE WILL TRY, WE'RE TALKINGA BOTU GETTING DOWN TO 5% SMOKING. WE RECOGNISE THAT THIS IS HIGHLY ADDICTIVE AND SOME PEOPLE WON'T BE ABLE TO STOP IT IS. BUT 5% IS A GOOD NUMBER. Just ahead ` we get inside the heads of the brains trust behind yachting's new speed machine. Have you got any desire to sail on this? No, I want to live. She's a brute. Some of the family are downright scared of her. But she's still their baby, and tomorrow night she gets her head wet. We're talking about the newest addition to Team NZ's fleet ` the catamaran that will carry our hopes and dreams to the next America's Cup challenger series. Michael Holland's with the creative geniuses who brought the cat to life. SPY MUSIC We've know they've long been toiling away behind those imposing walls of tin, doing what it is they do. Bigger, faster, stronger, quicker, lighter. Dozens of bods of sizeable intellect, presided over by an iconic Kiwi design and finally prepared to reveal themselves to give us mere mortals a glimpse of their high-tech, high-intrigue world. Only a matter of days ago, your opposition would have killed for this. Absolutely. This kind of sums up the boat. Where's the fun in this? It's like a bloody library. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? We all get our fun in different ways, I guess. Is anyone's backside on the line here? Uh, yeah, about a 100 of us. BOTH CHUCKLE This the design and engineering brains trust of our latest and most expensive tilt at the America's Cup ` those who dared to conceive this brute in black. These are going to be the high-wire act, if you like ` large-boat yachting. Have you got any desire to sail on this? No. I want to live. You want to live? Yeah. BOTH CHUCKLE You think it's gonna be seriously scary? Oh, if... You know, heaven forbid, but if something goes wrong, it will be terrifying. 22m long, 14m wide, 40m tall. A major step up from the AC 45 speed machines Team NZ's been racing in Europe, with no shortage of white-knuckle moments as crew members grapple with the vagaries of twin hulls. Functional. Not beautiful? (CHUCKLES) Well, she's not exactly the varnished, classic yacht, is she? We don't concede a lot to aesthetics. For these boffins, it's more about acronyms than adjectives. Help me out ` what is VMG? Well, Velocity Made Good. It's basically how quickly the boat is going to where you want it to go. And, of course, there's VPP? Velocity Prediction Programme. We live and die on that one. It's the only tool we have that helps us figure out how fast our boat might go Nick, otherwise known as Mr CFD ` which is? Computational Fluid Dynamics. And, seven or eight desks away, an aerodynamics expert with a PhD after his name,... I spend most of my waking life looking at this screen, looking at that picture. ...and a resume that includes a world championship-winning season at the McLaren formula-one team. Velocity prediction programme ` you are the one who's saying this boat is going to be fast? That's right, yeah. Speeds somewhere around 20 knots upwind, 40 knots downwind should be ballpark. You'll sit here day after day chasing one tenth of a knot over a mile? Yep. I mean, a tenth of a knot is a couple of hundred metres, or something like that, depending on how fast the boat's going. Over the far side of the room, we find Jamie,... I think it just looks mean. You stand at the bow and look at it. It's a mean boat. ...a design engineer who, between this and the last America's Cup campaign, led the prototype design for improved relaxation in the air. The sky couch programme, more affectionately known as 'cuddle class'. Shall we call you VPB? Very Practical Bloke? I'll take that. That's fine. Because you are. I think so. At the end of the day, this cat is gonna be more aerodynamic than ol' buzzy bee up there? Buzzy bee, well, he has his own traits. Bumble bees shouldn't fly, but somehow they do manage to. In much the same way, yachts weren't always supposed to sprout wings. Up the top here, you get a tip vortex coming off. That's caused because the wind's on a lifting surface. It's similar to what you see if you look out the window of your Boeing or whatever you're in, in the right conditions, you'll see a vortex. Everyone in this room seems to think this is scary as hell. It is. This America's Cup is the X Games meets the America's Cup. 35 pages of details. It says it shall be a cat, two hulls. It shall have a rudder. It shall have daggerboards. And out of this, a $100m-plus campaign is born? Yeah. Everybody's finding these boats more complicated, more expensive, more difficult to engineer. And while the cat might be out of the bag, so to speak, revealed to all, complete with a specially engineered swing arm to break the bottle at tomorrow night's launch,... We can't hit the bow, obviously, cos it's our baby, and we can't damage the carbon. ...there's no down-time for our think tank. I guess all the secret stuff is under 'S' for secret? Yeah, yeah. It's a new... We could come up with a new acronym for that. Which is already well advanced in its thinking on boat number two. We will keep developing this all the way to the end. It's never finished. There's hundreds of computerised images out there you don't want us to see even now? Correct. Let's just hope it stays that way. This cat will fly? It'll go quick, I'll tell you that. Yeah. It'll be spectacular. To your feedback now. Jennette emails about the camp for children with a parent in prison. While another viewer, who asked not to be named, emailed... And that's NZ Close Up. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air.