Tonight Up ` acquitted by a jury of killing his babies. I've just come home now, he's not there, and now they're <BLEEP>ed. Now the damning coroner's report blames Chris Kahui. His evidence? 'Unreliable, conflicting and on many occasions untrue.' Tonight ` the prosecutor who saw him walk,... The accused was alone with the twins. the coroner, and the child advocate demanding justice. It's time for Chris Kahui to man-up. Due to the live nature of Close Up, captions for some items may be incomplete. ONE News captions by John Ling and Pippa Jefferies. Tonight ` did babies Chris and Cru Kahui get justice? It's hard to believe they did after the coroner points the finger at the man acquitted of their murder. Where does this leave us? What needs to happen? We speak to the chief coroner, the prosecutor in Chris Kahui's trial and a child advocate about that justice or lack of it. Good evening. A police inquiry into how twin baby boys became seriously injured has now become a homicide investigation. It is time for the family to come forward and tell us what has happened. I'm Susan from Television NZ, from Close Up. There's a lot of people in NZ wondering what's going on here. A male (21) has been arrested. < Mr Kahui, you'll be remanded in custody by consent. The Crown says the 3-month-old babies had bee violently slammed against a hard surface. They told the jury there was only one man who could have inflicted the injuries. I'm sure I got the point across. The boys... They're <BLEEP>ed. I'd just left` I'd left the night before, and they were sweet. She had nothing to with the injuries that caused the twins' death. We find the accused not guilty. Two simple words ` not guilty ` set Chris Kahui free. You were found not guilty, but there's still people out there who think you did it. Did you do it? No, I didn't do it. Chris says he didn't do it. The criminal court took that view, but the coroner concludes otherwise. So what's next? The chief coroner, Neil Maclean, is in our Dunedin office. Simon Moore, the Crown prosecutor, is standing by in our Hamilton studio, and with me in Auckland is Christine Rankin. We will be talking to each in turn. I turn first to you, Judge Maclean. ARE WE READING THIS RIGHT? DOES THE CORONER'S REPORT IMPLY THAT CHRIS KAHUI KILLED THOSE BABIES? YES, IT DOES. IT'S LEFT US WITH AN AWKWARD SITATUION. BECAUSE WE HAVE THE CORONER'S COURT COMING TO A CLEAR CONCLUSION, AND PEOPLE THINKING JUSTICE HAS BEEN MISSED IN THE HIGH COURT. YES, AND I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE FEEL CONFUSED AND WONDER WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT. THE POINT HAS BEEN RAISED AS TO WHEATHER THE CORONER WAS OUTSIDE HIS JURISDICTION DID HE PUSH IT TOO FAR, OR WAS HE WITHIN HIS REMIT TO COME TO THOSE CONCLUSIONS? I DON'T HAVE THE ROLE OF CRITIQUING A CORONER'S FINDINGS, BUT WHAT HE DID WAS WITHIN THE PROVENCE AND POWER OF A CORONER. WHOSE TASK IS, REGARDLESS OF WHAT'S HAPPENED IN OTHER FORUMS, TO SAY WHAT HAPPENED WHO WAS INVOLVED, AND THEN TO MOVE ON HERE. WHY CAN A CORONER'S COURT REACH A CONCLUSION WHEN A CRIMINAL COURT CAN'T? WELL, IN THIS CASE, IT'S A DIFFERENT PROCESS ALTOGETHER. SIMON MOORE MAY BE ABLE TO COMMENT ON THIS WITH HIS EXPERIENCE. THE CORONER IS DRIVING AN INQUIRY. IT'S INQUISITORIAL. UNLIKE THE ADVERSARIAL CRIMINAL TRIAL THE CORONER IN THIS CASE ALSO HEARD EVIDENCE FROM MR KAHUI, AND ALSO HAVING THE BENEFIT OF A NUMBER OF EXPERTS WHICH PRODUCED LARGELY A CONSENSUS VIEW. HOW IMPORTANT WAS IT FOR THE CORONER TO EXAMINE THE PERSON SUSPECTED OF BEING RESPONSIBLE? WELL, IT'S OFTEN A HUGE ADVANTAGE. IT'S ONE WHICH OFTEN THE CRIMINAL SYSTEM DOESN'T HAVE. DOES THAT MEAN THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT OUR CRIMINAL COURT SYSTEM? IF IT IS SUCH AN ADVANTAGE TO A PERSON TO HEAR THE ACCUSED, IS IT TIME TO REVIEW OUR RIGHT TO SILENCE? IT'D BE A BIG LEAP TO SAY THAT THIS IS AN INQUIRY INTO WHAT HAPPENED, NOT WHO WAS TO BLAME. HOW DID THOSE BABIES COME TO BE IN THE SITUATION THEY WERE? THAT SORT OF THING YOU'VE BEEN CRITICAL IN THE PAST THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S BEEN SLOW TO PICK UP THEIR FINDINGS. IS IT GOINGTO BE DIFFERENT THIS TIME? THE PUBLIC WILL BE INTERESTED OT SEE WHAT HAPPENS SO YOU THINK THEY'D TAKE THIS CORONER'S RECOMMENDATIONS SERIOUSLY? GOVERNMENT AGENCIES WILL HAVE A HARD LOOK AT THIS. JUDGE MACLEAN, WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. Standing by in our Dunedin studio is crown prosecutor Simon Moore, who was the prosecutor when Chris Kahui stood trial in 2008 and was acquitted. SIMON MOORE, DOES THAT MEAN YOU FAILED? WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN A CRIMINAL TRIAL AND A CORONIAL INQUIRY. THE CROWN HAS TO PROVE ITS CASE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT MEANS THE JURY HAS TO BE SURE OF THAT PERSON'S GUILT. AND THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF REASONS WHY THESE CASES ARE DIFFICULT TO PROSECUTE THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES DONE IN BRITAIN. THE UK LAW COMMISSION LOOK AT THE QUESTION OF ACQUTTALS IN CHILD HOMICIDE CASES CHILD HOMICIDES SIT AT ABOUT 20%. OTHER FORMS OF HOMICIDE, THE CONVICTION RATE IS AROUND 80% SO THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG IN TERMS OF OUR ABILITY TO BRING THESE CASES TO TRIAL SUCCESSFULLY. WHAT IS WRONG? WE NEED TO APPRECIATE THE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFICULTIES YOU'VE GOT LITTLE BABIES THAT CAN'T TELL YOU WHO IT WAS OR WHO DID IT TO THEM. THESE INJURIES ARE OFTEN SERIOUS INJURIES THEY MAY NOT BE APPARENT TO THE NAKED EYE, BUT THERE ARE VERY SUBSTANTIAL INJURIES IN THEIR BRAINS. AS A PROSECUTOR, DO YOU HAVE MORE TROUBLE GETTING WITNESSES IN CHILD CASES THAN IN ORDINARY HOMICIDE? YES, BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THESE CASES OCCUR IN A FAMILY SITUATION. AND SO GETTING WITNESS TO COME AND TELL THE TRUTH IS A VERY TALL ORDER. IN BRITAIN THEY REACTED TO THE FRUSTRATION BY CHANGING THE LAW THEY REMOVED THE RIGHT TO SILENCE. AND BRINGING IN A PENALTY IF PEOPLE DO STAY SILENT. SHOULD WE LOOK AT THAT? THIS GETS BANDIED AROUND A LOT. I'M HESITANT TO GET INTO THAT DEBATE. WE CAN'T GIVE THIS DEBATE THE JUSTICE IS DESERVES IN A BRIEF INTERVIEW DOES IT NEED TO BE DEBATED, THOUGH? WE NEED TO HAVE AN INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS WE HAVE A LAW COMMISSION WHO LOOKS AT THESE ISSUES THEY'RE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR WAYS WE CAN DO THINGS BETTER. THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE POSSIBLITY OF BRINGING IN AN INQUISITIVE SYSTEM IN CHILD SEX CASES. WHERE THERE ARE COMPARABLY VERY LOW RATES OF CONVICTION. HOW MUCH WAS THE CROWN CASE HINDERED BY THE ATTACK ON MACSYNA KING? THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION, AND THE MEDIA NEEDS TO TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT ITSELF IN HOW IT DEMONISES PEOPLE. MACSYNA KING WAS UNDOUBTABLY DEMONISED. PEOPLE BEFORE TRIALS BEING DEMONISED IS BAD. I DON'T THINK IT MATTER WHICH SIDE OF THE DEBATE YOU'RE ON, THE WAY THE MEDIA PORTRAYS PEOPLE IN THESE PROCEEDINGS CAN BE VERY UNHELPFUL IT CAN BE EXTREMELY UNHELPFUL. FAIR TRIAL RIGHTS ` THE RIGHT OF THE ACCUSED AND THE COMMUNITY FOR JUSTICE. THANK YOU, SIMON MOORE. Former families commissioner and child advocate Christine Rankin is with me in the Auckland studio. DID THE CORONER GET IT RIGHT? YES, ABSOLUTELY. DOES THIS FINDING MAKE IT ANY SAFER FOR OTHER KIDS OUT THERE. WELL, NOT IMMEDIATELY. THERE CAN'T BE A RETRIAL, WHICH IS TRAGIC. BUT I'VE SAID ALL DAY THAT I THINK CHRIS KAHUI SHOULD MAN UP AND ADMIT IT IT WOULD SAVE US ALL A LOT OF TIME, THOSE BABIES WENT THROUGH A HELL OF A LOT. WILL THOSE BABIES EVER GET JUSTICE? IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE IT DOES IT? I THINK THE RIGHT FOR JUSTICE OUTWEIGHS THE RIGHT TO SILENCE. BUT CHRIS KAHUI'S LAWYERS TRIED TO STOP THE CORONERS FINDINGS BECOMING PUBLIC ` SHAME ON THEM. IT SEEMS WE GO OUT TO PROTECT PEOPLE WHO DON'T DESERVE PROTECTING. THEY COULD ARGUE THEY WERE THERE TO PROTECT CHRIS' POSITION. THE PUBLIC WILL MAKE THEIR MIND UP ON THAT. DOES MACSYNA KING DESERVE AN APLOGY? I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THAT, BUT I FELL INTO THE TRAP TOO, AND IT'S AN INSIGHTFUL BOOK. IT SHOCKED ME. SO, WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT? IS THE GOVERNMENT TAKING IT SERIOUSLY? I WAS IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR FOR 24 YEARS YES, THIS IS THE FIRST GOVERNMENT ` TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY BY DOING THAT, PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TO THEM AS TO WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO ACTUALLY DO. NZ IS IN A TERRIBLE SITUATION ` THIRD IN THE WORLD FOR MURDERING OUR BABIES. WE NEED TO TAKE SOME GIANT STEPS FORWARD. THANK YOU, CHRISTINE RANKIN. The question for you tonight ` have Chris and Cru Kahui ever got justice what do you think. Go to our website or email us at... Or like us on Facebook. Coming up ` gold medal in excuses ` he's heard them all. But I think the best one is the one where` an artificial bladder that they stuck up their rectum. We talk to the NZer in charge of making sure the athletes in London are clean. You hope the people standing on the podium at the London Olympics are the ones who trained the hardest, not the ones who doped up the best. The man charged with making sure it's hard work that's rewarded, not chemical dependence, is NZer David Howman. We'll hear from him in a moment, but we all know he's got a job on his hands. Here's Mark Crysell. Drugs in sport have a long history. Check out this high-jumper's cigarette. They haven't always been performance-enhancing. But we now know the extraordinary size and success of the athletes of communist East Germany was achieved through doping. Since drug testing was introduced at the 1968 Olympics, there've been over 100 sportspeople and two horses tested positive. The first big shock was Canadian 100m winner Ben Johnson in 1988 at Seoul. The IOC Medical Commission recommends the following sanction ` disqualification of this competitor from the games of the 23rd Olympiad in Seoul. His gold medal was handed to second-place getter Carl Lewis. We have to continue our focus on stopping the drug problem, not just talk. Running off at the mouth can also be dangerous. Lewis was later outed as a drug cheat, as was all but two of the finalists in that 100m, now known as the dirtiest race in history. When American sprinter Marion Jones aimed for five golds in Sydney in 2000, her banned athlete husband, CJ Hunter, was at her side. I know she can win all five golds. < Why? What do you mean 'why'? < Or how? By competing well. Seven years later she was exposed as a drug cheat, stripped of all five medals and jailed for perjury. It is with a great amount of shame that I stand before you and tell you that I have betrayed your trust. So far no Kiwi Olympians have been banned, but we've benefitted. Has he got anything left? One, two and, yes, he gets the bronze medal. Kiwi 1500m runner Nick Willis' bronze medal became a silver after the winner failed a drug test. It's rare to get a second chance after cheating at the Olympics, but lining up at London will be American 400m runner Lashawn Merritt, who is back to defend his Beijing title, having served a ban in the intervening four years. He had 21 months out ` doping violations for something which was used for an improvement in the dimensions of his body. We won't go further than that, I don't think. Pills he's always claimed were for penile enhancement ` a performance that is normally measured after the games. Yes, pills for sexual prowesss. That's certainly one of the most bizarre excuses former Wellington lawyer and now world anti-doping agency director general David Howman has heard. I spoke to him earlier about how he's going to beat the cheats. Look, I think it's a possibility to mark time with the cheats, Mark. What we have to recognise is that as we progress, so do those who are trying to beat the system. And so we're encountering more and more sophisticated cheats than we have in the past, and that means being very sophisticated in the ways you detect what they're doing. Have you got enough funding to keep up with them? Well, we don't have enough funding for what we do. We are in charge of monitoring those who do the testing itself, and here in London, of course, the IOC does the testing. They've got a lot of money. They're running a very robust programme, a considerable number of tests. They're going to look and make sure it's not only those who stand on the podium, but it's also those who are randomly selected and those who we can provide information about that will lead to what we call intelligent testing ` in other words, the information that we get from Interpol and other parts of the world that we can pass on, and the IOC will do the job. You're a bit like customs ` you know who you're looking for. Well, we've got a fair idea. In fact, when you mention customs, we work with them as well. So the World Customs Organization and us have a deal where they pass on information about suspicious parcels and so on. And I think that's the way we have to work now, Mark. It's no longer just science and analysing blood and urine. It's also using the information you get from those in enforcement. And of course, some people who are going to be competing in these games won't even make the start line; they've been caught out already. Yeah, there are quite a lot who have been 'kept at home' so to speak. The pre-Games testing programme around the world has been vigorous ` huge numbers ` and more than Beijing will be at home, ineligible to come to London. Does that make you feel good, because at least you're catching them, or is it depressing knowing that there's so many around? I don't feel good or bad. I just have to make sure we do our job to a professional level and help the clean athlete. I mean, our job is to make sure the clean athlete gets the playing field that he or she wants and needs and deserves. But unfortunately, we're tripped up from time to time by those who sneakily cheat. Look, I'll tell you what some people find odd. Someone like LASHAWNerritt, you know, wins gold at Beijing, tests positive in the intervening period, is stood down for 21 months, and then he can come back and defend his title. Isn't that nuts? Well, that's the position it's been for the past eight years. There were plenty of those sorts of athletes who competed at Beijing. There were plenty who competed at Vancouver. And that's just the way the sanction process works at the present. Once you've done your time, you've done your crime. We're reviewing those rules now, and I suspect that by the next Olympic Games, there may be a harsher rule which will stand those people down for the Olympic games. When they do the testing, what are they more likely to find ` the drugs themselves or the masking agents? Both. I mean, there are some who use masking agents to try to put you off the track. There are some who use all sorts of other devices to make sure that the chemists and the people who work in the laboratories do not get samples that are pure. And when I say pure, I mean untainted or unmanipulated. And so what we have to do is ensure that the process of collection and the process of delivery to the lab is as good as it can possibly be. What's the most inventive or maybe the most outrageous excuse you've ever heard put up for somebody who's tested positive? You mentioned a fellow who actually gave an excuse which was pretty interesting in terms of what he was taking, and he was taking drugs which he thought would give his sexual prowess a little stronger boost. But I think the best one is the one in Athens, where Hungarian throwing athletes had an artificial bladder that they stuck up their rectum with a little tube that threaded down the penis, and they pushed the button when they were peeing and it came from the artificial bladder. That was pretty` That was pretty interesting. We will never see a drugs-free Games, will we? I don't think so. I don't think you're gonna find a group of journalists without a plagiarist among them. You know, it's the sort of thing that you now get in society, where in every group, you're gonna get somebody who wants to take a short cut, and athletes are no exception. Just ahead ` what's got you riled up on the Kahui case. It's time for Chris Kahui to man-up and tell the truth. Where's the justice for Chris and Cru? Send us your thoughts. Feedback next. We've got your feedback now, and the first is a point a lot of you made. Phillip emails... Darlene says... Judy say... That's NZ Close Up. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2012