Tonight on Sunday, are we slowly but surely killing the golden goose? If nothing is done, the place gets trashed. Well, that's just crap. The fishing frenzy in the Antarctic's Ross Sea. Nothing about that fishery makes sense. Untouched, unspoiled. The 'last ocean' says it all for me. They're nutters. We started it. Can we stop it? He called me a grumpy bastard before. He called me a grumpy bastard before. I never used the word grumpy. Yep, grumpy, single-minded and opinionated. I just wanted to stick it up a few people in NZ. And what we didn't know about the man. It's what John Kirwan calls depression. The Gambler's coming to town to talk about money, music, marriage... # He said, 'Son, I've made my life out of readin' people's faces... ...and his other vice. Please don't say anything about this. Oh my God! # There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealing's done. # Captions by Anne Langford. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2012 Kia ora. I'm Miriama Kamo. It seems our country could have a dirty secret. For years we've taken the moral high ground, demonising Japan for its Antarctic whaling programme, but did you know we're involved in our own controversial fishing programme in the Antarctic? The prized catch is the Antarctic toothfish, a fish so valuable it has been nicknamed 'white gold'. But there's a fine line between making money and common sense. Now Kiwi cameraman Peter Young has released a documentary that's ignited an international debate on what we and others are doing in the world's most pristine ocean. If you want to see how the oceans were before humans walked planet Earth, you'd go to the Ross Sea. The landscape, the wildlife, the silence; just knowing it is one of the most untouched places on Earth. The Ross Sea is a special place for me. A pristine place of immense beauty; this is the last outpost of the natural world. But the world has now found the Ross Sea and developed a taste for the giant toothfish that lurk beneath the ice. We should definitely not be fishing there. There was no sense in sending fishing boats all the way to the bottom of the world, to bust through the ice for days on end to get into the inner sanctum of the Ross Sea and start fishing. It just didn't make sense to me, and I just felt I needed to tell that story. Every year millions and millions of dollars of toothfish are hauled out of the Ross Sea. They live up to 2km below the surface, grow up to 2m in length, weigh up to 140kg, and can live for up to 50 years. I'm not anti-fishing. We just should not be down there full stop, no matter how well we fish, no matter how much money we make, we should not be in the Ross Sea fishing. That point of view isn't shared by everyone. I hate extremists. I can't stand people who come in with a preconception and disguise it as something else. That... Because to me, that is not fair and it is not rational. Gareth Morgan is also passionate about Antarctica. It is just awesome. It is just unbelievable. Been there three times now. Yeah. He's incredibly concerned about the impact of global warming on this frozen continent. If we are talking about what is upsetting the system the most down there now, it's climate change. It is the changing temperature of the water and acidity that is by far the biggest influence by a mile. But he's also a staunch and outspoken defender of the Kiwi fishermen targeting the toothfish. You've been down there. You love it. Why aren't you advocating fencing it off? Because I know the consequence of that will be that the other countries will take the toothfish out to extinction, and I don't want that. That would be crazy. What Gareth Morgan is saying is it's too valuable a resource to ignore. If we don't take it, someone else will. We are in the real world here. We have to make compromises. This fishery is classified as exploratory and precautionary. It is controlled by CCAMLR ` the Commission for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources. Remarkably, this so-called precautionary approach allows the toothfish population to be reduced by 50% over the next 35 years. It is not being taken out. It is being fished in a sustainable manner. That's, you know, what it's about. But it is based on models that ultimately are based on assumption. Absolutely. A model is an abstraction from reality. Welcome to the world of science. And assumption can lead to the mother of all stuff-ups. Well, they can do that, but it's a question of, you know, you've gotta do something. If we did nothing we'd still be in caves. Nicknamed 'white gold', the oily white flesh of the Antarctic toothfish can fetch up to $120 a kilo in America's finest restaurants. According to CCAMLR's own estimates, the total population of toothfish in the Ross Sea has already been reduced by 20%. It is a fact that has got some scientists very concerned. Personally, I'm worried. Yes. And, you know, I think, uh, it wouldn't do any harm just to put the brakes on here a bit. Clive Evans is part of a scientific team that has been capturing, tagging and releasing toothfish at McMurdo Sound for 30 years. If the book of knowledge is 200 pages long, where you at? From the book of science knowledge, yeah, I don't think we are... We're probably halfway through or something like this. We've got a lot to know about the toothfish. So what don't we know? The kind of things we don't know about the toothfish are really where does it breed, in the precise sense, when does it breed, how often does it breed, how many eggs does it lay. We don't know a lot about the early life cycle, so, you know, as the fish are growing through to that stage, we just don't know. We've never caught them. We don't know where they are or how many of them are there. This is the thing that we don't know. One thing he knows for sure ` there are some pretty clear indicators that all is not well with the Ross Sea's toothfish population. I think it is fair to say that we used to be able to catch fish at our leisure, and the most fish we caught in a season, though it was well before my time, was probably 550-odd fish. And last year? Last year, this one single fish, uh, three-quarters of a metre long, uh, and about 4�kg. And how long did it take you to catch that one fish? We did, um, 490 hours of continuous fishing, which is kind of like over a month, and we had 15 hooks on the line, and we went back to our old fishing haunts, so we went to, you know, known sites that yielded toothfish in the past, and, um, despite this, you know, effort we really only landed this one fish. Clive Evans is the first to admit the science isn't perfect. But it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ` you ignore the signs at your peril. That seems to be an obvious alarm bell? It's a... Yeah, a bit of an eye-opener, and it makes you think. But that warning hasn't cut any ice with the pro-fishing lobby and their supporters. Guys like Gareth Morgan say the science just doesn't make sense. How can these guys expect to be taken seriously? They are nutters. They've gotta be able to convince their peers, and if they can't, well, it is no good yelping to the blimmin' media about it. Get on and do better science. That shows an arrogance, and to a certain degree, ignorance about how precious that place is. Peter Young once worked as a commercial fisherman, but he's adamant making money in this part of the world just doesn't make sense. I'm not a greenie, and I don't consider myself a greenie. I spent three years making Hunger For The Wild, and, basically, chasing everything that moved around the country and putting it in a pot, and I love that. I love celebrating that part of our life and that part of Kiwi culture, but NZ does not need to be going down into these last places to fish. After the break, an unlikely ally in the fight to save the last ocean ` the man who helped open the fishery now voices his regret. If nothing's done ` out of sight, out of mind ` the place gets trashed. 5 Convincing the world to save the toothfish isn't without its challenges. For starters, it is not the most attractive fish in the ocean. It is an ugly fish. I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, isn't it? And then there is the fact, as Peter Young discovered, most of the world has no idea where the Ross Seas is. R-O-S-S? Ross? R-O-S-S? Ross? Yeah. R-O-S-S? Ross? Yeah. No. Is it a sea? Is it a sea? Like a swimming sea? No, I don't think... I-I don't know where it is. Where's that? Any idea where it is? Australia? Australia? ALL LAUGH I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's in Europe. I have no idea. Maybe it's in Asia. Maybe it's in Asia. Is it man-made? Is it the east side or west side of New York City? Why? What's going on in the Ross Sea? They didn't know where the Ross Sea was, in Cuba Street? It sounds familiar, but I don't know anything about it. It's unbelievable, but I think once people understand what this is about, about protecting our last ocean, they get it. I think the last ocean is the first lie to begin with, you know. The argument of the last ocean is saying it is the Earth's most pristine ocean. Well, that is just a load of crap. They've had whaling in that ocean for decade after decade, after decade. You take 200,000 whales out of the sea around the Antarctica, including the Ross Sea, you have an enormous impact on the ecosystem. A huge impact. It may not be absolutely pristine, but this vast expanse of land, sea and ice is one of the most perfect places on the planet. You don't chop down the last tree. You don't fish the last ocean. But we're not catching the last fish! Greg Johansson heads the NZ Toothfish Committee. We get to go each year based on the performance of our previous years. It is, he says, one of the healthiest fisheries in the world. Are you concerned for the toothfish? > For the sustainability of the fish stock? No, not at all. Why not? CCAMLR has got a robust scientific process to determine the allowable catch, and there's no discernible downturn in the size of the catch and the population, so we think it is sustainable. And, furthermore, Greg Johansson says, 'NZ is helping to keep the world's fishing fleet honest.' Once plundered by fish pirates, the 'mine it, move on' mentality would have ultimately led to the extinction of the toothfish. It's here to stay in one form or another, and we would prefer that the well-managed and regulated participants are there doing it, rather than creating a void for someone else to step into. For the rogues? > For the rogues? > I didn't say the rogues, but the less-controlled, the less-managed. But one man, a former powerbroker who helped open the fishery, believes it's time to shut it down. Makes no sense. Makes no sense at all. I mean, it seems to me the case is there to be made, basically, to shut off the Ross Sea region and the seas around it from that sort of commercial activity. Stuart Prior is an unlikely ally in the fight to save the Ross Sea. He's our former ambassador to Russia. He used to head NZ's Antarctic policy unit, and he was instrumental in opening up the Ross Sea fishery. The story of the toothfish is the story of a gold rush of rampant exploitation of a newly discovered species which, you know, people were unaware of. Stuart Prior says when NZ broke through the ice and opened up the Ross Sea fishery, it inadvertently opened a can of worms. What I have seen has been something which we didn't at all foresee, which is, essentially, rust-bucket ships operating down there, you know, taking fish under anything but precautionary principles. That goes in the face of common sense. I don't see anything here which suggests sustainability. I see things which suggest a huge loss of value, and a loss of value at a time when we are becoming aware globally of just how critically important Antarctica is for the health of the planet. Having opened the can of worms, Stuart Prior believes NZ now has to show inspirational leadership and close it. If nothing is done ` out of sight, out of mind ` the place gets trashed. So I think the evidence has mounted up, and we should simply stop it, and, yes, we can protect and preserve the Ross Sea region, you know, into the future for the benefit of mankind. CCAMLR meets next October. NZ will be tabling a plan to turn much of the Ross Sea into a marine protected area. Everyone agrees that is a good idea, but there is still deep division whether or not commercial fishing should still be allowed to continue in the Ross Sea. To me, it just flies in the face of common sense. We can make money out of Antarctica through totally non-evasive means. Why can't we just take the moral high ground? That's fine. Take that position. But if NZ was to take that position, given it's a member of that treaty, we would end up with no agreement. And, therefore, countries like Ukraine, Russia, Korea, all parts of the treaty, would fish it to extinction, so it wouldn't be very clever, would it? < Come and give Daddy a cuddle. 'The Last Ocean' documentary has been a seven-year labour of love for Peter Young. As far as he's concerned, the cost of doing nothing would have been untenable. We either rob future generations of this incredible natural asset or we gift it to them, and we've got that choice. I know which one I'd rather do. I'd rather my kids looked back at us, and saw this wonderful gift that we set aside for future generations. A stunning place, and beautifully captured by Peter Young. His film 'The Last Ocean' has its premiere at the NZ International Film Festival this week. When we come back ` Sir Ted. Graham Henry. He reveals for the first time his dark days ` 'the black dog'. And we see the other side of the man ` the candid, engaging and personable side. When are you getting married? When are you getting married? Um, September. Did you know you were such a babe magnet? Welcome back. Did you know Graham Henry almost chucked the job in and that he suffered from depression? That's what we discovered when we sat down with the great rugby coach for a chat this week. He doesn't suffer fools, Graham Henry. He's confident, some say arrogant and moody, journalists even called him grumpy. Still, he's the last person you'd expect to suffer depression. But as a just published book reveals, Graham Henry's coaching career took him to the depths of despair, to a point where he nearly gave it all away. Tonight, Sir Graham opens up to Mark Crysell. CROWD ROARS The time has come to say what we really thought, or what I really thought. You've just run out of petrol, and that's a horrible feeling. Just how low did you get? > I hit the wall. The man we all know as Ted struggles to talk about himself. We've dwelled on this long enough! But tonight he tackles his demons. Are we on, are we? He called me a grumpy bastard before. He called me a grumpy bastard before. I never used the word grumpy. He's not so grumpy at his holiday home on Waiheke, but he still likes to be the boss. That pohutukawa there. If you have a look at that pohutukawa, camera, that's the oldest pohutukawa on the island ` about 500 years old, apparently. That tree's older than you. That tree's older than you. Oh, a wee bit. Not too much older. Sir Graham Henry can be impatient. Is that a question or are you moving on? PEOPLE CHATTER When are you getting married? When are you getting married? Um, September. But these days the smile is no longer upside down. Did you have any idea you're such a babe magnet? Did you have any idea you're such a babe magnet? (LAUGHS) Winning a World Cup can do wonders for your public image. But as a new book reveals, that was just the end of a long and bumpy road. The headmaster who became a ringmaster ` a rugby coach who rarely lost. You were quite a cocky guy? > I wouldn't say cocky. I think that's a... that's a stretch. One of the reports at the time said you rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. I was busy. I was very busy. You know, we had a young family. I was... I was a headmaster of a secondary school that I was proud of, and I was coaching a... one of the biggest provincial rugby sides in NZ. Loved it. Enjoyed trying to be successful with a group of people, trying to create something that people were proud of. At his side for 42 years, his wife, Raewyn. 42 years of marriage, but only been home for 21, so that's the... that's the ideal for a good marriage, I'd say. that's the ideal for a good marriage, I'd say. (LAUGHS) > I don't know if you should put that in. I don't know if you should put that in. No, we might leave that one out. > Some have said it should've been Raewyn that got the knighthood. He... He said, 'People think you're grumpy.' Is that`? That'll be on the TV. Are you...? Is he grumpy? And did you say, 'No, I'm not'? (LAUGHS) Did you say, 'No, I'm not'? No, I didn't deny that I was grumpy. I said, 'Yeah, they're probably correct.' Sometimes. Is he grumpy sometimes? Is he grumpy sometimes? Sometimes. His patience has certainly been tested. By the end of the '90s, his Auckland side just kept winning, and he decided he was ready for the All Blacks. If I'd been given a positive indication from NZ Rugby that that was a possibility, I would have stayed, but I didn't get that. Instead, Wales made him a million-dollar offer. The NZ Rugby Union's reaction? They threw their toys out of the cot and introduced the Graham Henry law ` If you want to coach the All Blacks, then you have to be coaching here in NZ. What a ridiculous law. No, that was a knee reaction, a... a knee-jerk reaction to me going to Wales, which I thought was bizarre. Pettier still, the Auckland Rugby Union. They took away your car park... > They took away your car park... > (LAUGHS) They took away your car park... > (LAUGHS) ...and your seat in the stand? > And... And two seats in the stand, and a car park, which I had been given for life. That seems incredibly petty? Yeah, I think it was jealousy at the time, personally. There were a million reasons to be jealous. The Welsh deal had made him the highest paid coach in the world. It's a wonderful moment for us to bring him into our midst. Money that bought him his Waiheke retreat. Ironically, it's the island's old schoolhouse. Would you have ever been able to have a place like this if you'd stayed a teacher? You know the answer to that. So this is the house the pain of Wales bought you? Dead right. This is the house the pain of Wales bought me. I've got very fond memories of those times. I've also learnt a lot, and also went through a bit of pain. Henry had a point to prove to the bosses at the NZ Rugby Union, and he did. Initially, we had a run of 11 games on the trot for a while, which was lovely. The grateful Welsh dubbed him 'the great redeemer'. I really enjoyed it, you know. I really enjoyed it. It was the only other country in the world where rugby's the national game. But it was 24/7, and he was about to bite off more than he could chew ` coaching the British and Irish Lions team to Australia. Should you have taken that Lions job? > No. (LAUGHS) No, not in hindsight, but my ego was such that I just wanted to stick it up a few people back in NZ. The ego was more brittle than many realised. He has never talked publically about this, but Graham Henry was about to crack up. It's what John Kirwan calls depression. Infighting and bitterness had marred the tour. Another one for the Wallabies! For the first time in his career, Henry was a loser. The Great Redeemer was all out of redemption. It wasn't only a challenge coaching-wise, but it was... it was a huge challenge mentally. Absolutely exhausted, he tipped over into deep depression. I hit the wall. I hit the wall after the Lions tour, and knew that I had to get out. You know that you... you can't do the job. You know that the... the fire in the belly is not there. And no matter what you do, you know you work your butt off, it's not there, and you just... you've just run out of petrol, and that's a horrible feeling. Had you ever seen him down before? Had you ever seen him down before? Not like that, no. It's a subject he still struggles to talk about. We've dwelled on this long enough. We've dwelled on this long enough. Fair enough, fair enough. > We've dwelled on this long enough. Fair enough, fair enough. > You'll make me depressed again. The way he dealt with it was to leave Wales. And it was the right decision, and, otherwise, I would have died there, as a rugby coach. Did you think at the time that that was it for your rugby coaching? Um... (LAUGHS) Always, there's the little man in the back of your head saying, 'Well, are you gonna do this thing again one day?' When we come back, Graham Henry gets the All Blacks job he'd always coveted, but is horrified at what he finds. It disgusted me, and I didn't think it was acceptable. Returning to NZ from Wales was like emerging from a long, dark tunnel for Graham Henry. What's it like when you come back out here? Well, I'm not out there yet. I don't know. He was starting to feel like his old self again. I remember coming back here. When I came back from Wales and I sat in the stand, and I thought, 'Jeez, it's great to be at Eden Park.' Just felt comfortable, you know. It felt like home. And as Graham Henry recovered from depression, the rest of the country slipped into despair. The All Blacks had crashed out of yet another Rugby World Cup, and guess who was sitting in the crowd in Sydney. I was thinking this may be my chance to get back into international rugby, and maybe this is my chance to fulfil a lifetime ambition, a lifetime dream of coaching the All Blacks, I have to be honest. We are not kind to losing All Black coaches. For many, nothing less than a public flogging will atone for World Cup defeat. Why would you want to do that job? > Oh, it was in the blood. It was part of me. I was hugely ambitious. It was a pinnacle of... of what I'd aimed for for the last 30 years. The Rugby Union had backtracked on the Graham Henry law, and Ted got the job. What he found horrified him; It disgusted me, and I didn't think it was acceptable. a culture of heavy binge drinking. This was compulsory drinking, and making drinking compulsory for anybody is unacceptable. This was an All Black NZ rugby team. Totally unacceptable. It was pretty bad, cos, um, some of the states that the boys finished up in were just,... you know, wasn't what we were about. They had inherited a culture they were continuing on. We just changed the culture. What did you do? What did you do? We stopped it. Ted, too, had to change. For years he'd been an old-school tub-thumping rugby coach. His new captain broke it to him. I says, you know, 'Who are our team talks for? Are they for you, or are they for us, 'because they're really not helping us?' I was depressed for a week. Talk about depression in Wales! The culture was changed. Henry changed too, and the All Blacks took their game to a new level ` Tri-Nations titles, grand slams, record scores. They were red-hot favourites by the time the 2007 World Cup rolled around. We were the favourites to win that competition. We'd won 19 out of the last 20 internationals prior to going into the Rugby World Cup. We were expected to win. But lying in wait, again, were the French. Oh, you feel empty. You feel empty because there's nothing you can do. It's over! Henry's pain was our national shame. He'd presided over the All Blacks' worst-ever result at a World Cup. Publically, he refused to blame the referee, and won an international sports award for the way he handled defeat. Better side won on the day. A lot of credit goes to them. How do you take the pressure off these young fellas so that they don't go through, um, the criticism they could go through? We made no excuses. We just took it on the chin and said we didn't play as well as we should've. The French played better than we thought they would, and we didn't get the bounce of the ball. But you had strong doubts? > But you had strong doubts? > Oh, hell, yeah. When the Lions lost, Henry spiralled into depression. This time he grabbed a tape of the game and obsessively played it over and over again, taking copious notes. There in front of him were at least 40 infringements committed by the French that went unpunished. The All Blacks didn't get a penalty for the last 60 minutes of the game, and attacked over 70% of that time. Now, that's impossible, but it wasn't impossible on that particular day. The French have come through. They've played that on the deck. It is only now five years later that he can talk publicly about it. It made me physically ill to see what I was viewing. We just got sawn off by the officials in the game, and that's the major reason we lost the game. The ref? > The ref? > Yeah. So shocked was he by referee Wayne Barnes.... Mr Barnes is only looking at one team at the moment. ...that Henry suspected sports betting had played a part. You thought this was rigged? I asked the Rugby Union and the international board if there was any laws or any system that they used to look at bizarre games and look at the possibility of sports betting. With the officials, was it cheating or incompetence? Well, I guess that's why you have a system of analysing those things. If you'd had a system of analysing, maybe you would come to a result and I could answer that question. Officials told him to shut up or he'd never coach the All Blacks again. The players were looking at me, 'How's Ted going to handle this? 'He's under pressure. Is he going to stand up or is he going to run away?' So I had to stand up because that's what I've been asking them to do for the last four years. It's still debated today ` should Graham Henry have kept his job as All Black coach? Controversially, the Rugby Union said yes. Destiny would be played out at Eden Park. What is it about this ground? What is it about this ground? Oh, I think you grew up here, didn't you? Didn't we? Eden Park, 23rd October 2011. NZ vs France ` the Rugby World Cup final. Henry and his team sat on the bus on the way to the game unable to believe what they were seeing. Jock Hobbs, bless him, his statement about this is a stadium of 4� million people, and his words came to life. And then you get into the last 20 minutes of the final, and it's a dogfight. Oh, the drama! 20 horrendous minutes where the All Blacks clung desperately to a one-point lead; 20 minutes All Black captain Richie McCaw called the greatest 20 minutes of his life. Was it the greatest 20 minutes of your life? > Was it the greatest 20 minutes of your life? > No, we went through hell, really. It's over! Rugby's golden prize is All Black again! At the end of that game, were you happy or relieved? Both. I felt very peaceful, and I was just delighted to spend that time with my wife, Raewyn, who has been quite outstanding. Makes me emotional to talk about it, even now. Why? Why? Well, I guess I'm a silly old bugger. And occasionally, that silly old bugger returns to Eden Park, even though they still haven't given him back his car park or seats in the stand. A lot of people say, 'Gee, you're looking relaxed these days.' Perhaps I was pretty uptight when I was coaching the All Blacks. I feel very comfortable because I don't have to win any more. It's been done, and that's a great feeling. And those revelations are remarkable, aren't they? Henry's book, 'The Final Word', is penned by Bob Howitt and is on sale this week. When we come back ` Kenny Rogers. He's headed to town in a couple of weeks. We catch up with him in Nashville, Tennessee. # Son, I've made my life out of readin' people's faces. What a story. What a story. What a story. > What a story. What a story. > Thank God for that song. # You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. And I have people today, young people say, 'My mom and dad raised me on your music.' # There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealing's done. # TYRES SQUEAL MOURNFUL STRING MUSIC MUSIC CONTINUES In a crash, whatever your speed, the car stops, but everything inside keeps moving. It's the same inside your body. MOURNFUL STRING MUSIC CONTINUES SNAP! Even with the best protection, you're still vulnerable. STEAM HISSES Kenny Rogers is a dead-set country-music legend. In fact, it's one of the great mysteries why he's been ignored by country music's Hall of Fame. How could they do that to The Gambler? Kenny knows when to hold them and when to fold them, especially when it comes to marriage, it seems. He's on wife number five after wife number four took him for $60 million in a divorce settlement. Rogers is a no-drinking, no-drugs country-music man. But apart from collecting wives, he does have a couple of vices. # You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille. # I'm in the birthplace of country music, Nashville, Tennessee, where Kenny Rogers is about to play a very intimate gig. I'm in an incredibly, I think, enviable position. Gidday, mate, how's it going? Gidday, mate, how's it going? WOMAN: Good, buddy. > I sign enough autographs to satisfy my ego, but not so many that it invades my privacy, and it's a great position to be in. # On a warm summer's evening, on a train bound for nowhere, # I met up with the gambler. We were both too tired to sleep. The song Kenny's best known for was released in 1978. It was his second solo hit after 'Lucille'. # He said, 'Son, I've made my life out of readin' people's faces.' What a story. What a story. What a story! > Thank God for that song. # You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em... If you listen to it, it's not really about gambling. Yeah. > Yeah. > It's about a concept of living. # There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealing's done. Because a lot of people don't gamble, but they all know when things are risky, and they should do them or not do them. People quote it still today. People quote it still today. < Oh, I know. People quote it still today. < Oh, I know. All the time. And I have people today, young people, who say, 'My mom and dad raised me on your music.' I tell 'em I think it's child abuse, but, regardless, the fact is they know it! # ...when the dealing's done. # This is how we travel. At 74, he spends at least 100 days a year on the road. I'd rather spend 24 hours on this bus than three hours on an aeroplane. It's not that I'm afraid to fly, it's just that I've got everything I need right here. And I can see why, Kenny. Look at this! Look at the TV you've got! 'The bus is for Kenny and his wife and kids. The band has its own.' You're looking very relaxed. No shoes! This is the thing here. This is Nashville. I was going to put them on, but I thought, 'Alex doesn't care.' And this is the freezer that has 30 different ice creams in it. Oh my God. Would you care for an ice cream? Would you care for an ice cream? Well, maybe later! Would you care for an ice cream? Well, maybe later! Yeah, maybe! 'Kenny doesn't drink and has never done drugs.' I've got to show you my prize drawer. 'But he does have one vice.' I sit in this chair, and you reach over here... Please don't say anything about this. Oh! (LAUGHS) As if that's not enough. A sweet tooth, Kenny? Oh my God! You don't think? BOTH: # I never saw a sun shining so bright, never saw things going so right. # He's had 24 number-one hits, not all of them country. He's also ventured into rhythm and blues. Because I think R & B is the black man's country music. What you get with R & B is you get the pain, and that's what I like about country music. # That why I'm leaving... # That's when I reached out to Lionel Richie. I went to Las Vegas. Kenny had just finished his show, and I went backstage and met him for the first time, and pitched this song. He came to me with one word. What's funny is he told me, he said, 'I have to admit, I showed this song to The Commodores, and they turned it down.' So I said, 'Show me.' And he goes,... # Lady... # Da-da-da-da-da-da-da. # Da-da-da-da-da-da-da. # Da-da. # 'You like that song?' And Kenny said... 'How could they turn that word down? I don't understand it!' # Lady,... # I'm your knight in shining armour, and I love you. I have this theory that if a song touches me, I can make it touch somebody else. # In my eyes, I see no one else but you. For ballads, I look for songs which say what every man would like to say and every woman would like to hear. # And, yes, oh, yes, I'll always want you near me. # I've waited for you for so long. A lot of men can thank you for that song. That's what every man would like to say, every woman would like to hear. What woman doesn't want to hear, 'Lady, I'm your knight in shining armour, and I love you'? # ...you're my lady. # (HUMS) APPLAUSE Lionel Richie. You wanna sing something with me? You wanna sing something with me? Sing something with you? > You wanna sing something with me? Sing something with you? > Sing something with me. What am I gonna sing with you? What am I gonna sing with you? 'Islands in the Stream'. You be Dolly. I need, uh... I need, uh... No, no! Her hands aren't like that and you know it! # Islands in the stream, that is what we are. # No one in between, how can we be wrong? # Sail away with me to another world. # And we rely on each other, uh-huh. # Making love with each other, uh-huh. 'Islands in the Stream' ` everyone loves that song. 'Islands in the Stream' ` everyone loves that song. Yeah, Barry Gibb, The Bee Gees. What's funny is I worked on that song for about four days by myself, and I was singing, # Baby, when I met you... # Everything's on the upbeat with Barry, which is really hard to do. I finally said, 'Barry, I don't even like this song any more,' and he said, 'You know what we need?' Like an epiphany, 'We need Dolly Parton.' 40 minutes later, she came waltzing in, and it was never the same after that. You know, she put her stamp on that sucker, and I just followed like a little puppy. # From one lover to another, uh-huh. # I think everybody sings duets better than they sing by themselves. I get out there and I sing a song as best I can, I think, and then someone starts to... 'Well, if you're gonna go there, then I'm gonna do this.' And I think that's the beauty of doing duets. Lucky in love songs, but not so lucky in love. Kenny has been married five times. I have really literally been in love with every woman I have married. I'm not afraid of commitment. We've proved that. His divorce from wife number four, actress Marianne Gordan, in 1993, was also one of showbiz's most expensive. The divorce settlement ` $60 million. > She deserved every penny of it, you know. Really?! > Really?! > Well, you know, money doesn't mean anything to me. It just never has. What did she do to deserve it? What did she do to deserve it? She was with me for 20 years. That's something, I think! For the last 15 years, Kenny's been married to his fifth wife, Wanda. 28 years younger than him, Kenny was 65 when they had twin boys. Before tying the knot, Kenny was given some blunt marriage advice from an unlikely Australian fan. What's the Australian guy's name that was...? Kerry Packer. He loved 'The Gambler', and he said, 'When I die I want "The Gambler" and "My Way" played at my funeral.' So, we were sitting at the table and he said, 'Are you guys married?' I said, 'No, we're getting married when I get back.' He said, 'Do you have a prenup?' And I said, 'No, I don't.' 'Oh God, get a prenup!' In front of her! 'Oh God, get a prenup!' In front of her! Really? > And I was, like, 'That's not very good to say things like that in front of her!' But I've just never wanted a prenup. I think you go into it thinking, 'Whatever's mine is half yours, and you give it up when it's over,' you know? So despite all those, still no prenups? So despite all those, still no prenups? Yeah. I still have no prenup. Wow. I don't believe in them. I think it starts the marriage off on the wrong foot. You have to assume, at least, it's gonna last forever. # Reuben James, for you still walk the furrowed fields of my mind. Kenny's music has stood the test of time better than his body. # I loved you then and I love you now, Reuben James. # He has crook knees and a bad back. He also carries the scars of cosmetic surgery he had more than a decade ago, caused, in part, by a desire to look young for his much younger wife. The difference in how he looked back then to how he looks now is striking. It's the only area of his life that he's reluctant to talk about. You know what, I don't want to go there. I was writing my book, and I started talking about that, and Wanda said, 'Please don't do that.' This all started in Australia. This all started in Australia. Oh! Years ago, when I started talking about my surgery... Because I've always had the opinion, that if you tell people, nobody cares. If you hide it, somebody will find it and make a big deal out of it. Boy, the press... This is a whole vicious press out there now. I'd just as soon stay away from that. I don't mean to do that to you. AUDIENCE: # You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille. # With four hungry children and a crop in the field. You know, the thing is, I've had a good life, and I think karma... They say karma's a bitch. What goes around comes around. When you're good to people, good things come. When you're bad to people, bad things come. So I've tried to be good to everybody, and I've been really lucky. # You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille. # APPLAUSE Oh, I like him. I might go to the show. Kenny Rogers is at the CBS Arena in Christchurch, August 10, and the Vector Arena in Auckland two days later. Kua mutu te mahi naianei. Check us out on Facebook, Sunday TVNZ. Thanks for joining us. Ka kite ia koe a tera wiki. Nga mihi nui, hei kona.