I have lived with this for the last three-and-a-half years. A story you will want to hear. Were you coerced or persuaded to be here? Were you coerced or persuaded to be here? Not at all. No. Now she speaks her mind. I think there's been a lot of confusion about what David Bain's not-guilty verdict in the second trial means. Kind, compassionate and humorous. Rosie, queen of charity. Is she the perfumed bulldozer, though? Entertaining the royals. They think, 'Oh my God. I thought she'd given all this nonsense up.' Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2012 Kia ora. I'm Miriama Kamo. The jury is at the heart of our legal system. It's sacred. 12 men and women we rely on to represent us when it comes to judging someone charged with a crime. It's a serious business. Now, we, the media, can't approach jurors, and nor a juror's free to discuss how they made their decisions in a trial. If they did, it could be contempt of court. They could go to jail. So the woman you'll hear from, one of the jurors who acquitted David Bain at his second trial, this woman approached Sunday. She cannot question the finality of the verdicts. She doesn't wish to do that. But she is concerned about how the verdicts have been perceived by some people, and with issues that arise from being a juror in the internet age. She's also troubled by how some jurors conducted themselves during and after the Bain retrial. Janet McIntyre reports. And one thing ` by law, we can't identify the juror. WOMAN: Here they come. > WOMAN: Here they come. > CHEERING, APPLAUSE Cameras captured jubilation at the acquittal of David Bain in June 2009. And even the jubilation of two of his jurors. Turned on the television to watch the news coverage of the verdict. Two of my fellow jurors in the crowd, congratulating David Bain. One shaking his hand, and the other throwing her arms around his neck for a big hug. It turned my stomach. This woman, who can't be identified, was part of the jury which acquitted David Bain at the end of his retrial. Then she left, as she was instructed to do by the court, discretely through the back door. She says she was shocked and surprised that some jurors did not. I believe that these are people who wanted to be part of the drama. Otherwise, they would have just done what we were asked to do and, uh, keep our heads down and walk out the back door. Later, the woman juror who hugged David Bain phoned a radio station. It would be interesting to meet him, and for me, I was standing on the street, walking over to try and get to a bar, and out he came, and he hugged me, and leaned over and hugged me, and that's neither here nor there. We're just people off street after that verdict. To find out later that they had also attended his celebration party, it was just a kick in the guts. I accepted an invitation because why not? We don't know who this person is, and off we went. Got there. Realised it was inappropriate and went. The Crown against David Cullen Bain... It had been an epic trial for that jury. Three months of evidence ` complicated, technical, scientific and medical evidence. Expert against expert. And when the jury retired, it was up to them how they weighed it all up to reach their verdicts. By law, the deliberations, as for any trial, have to be kept secret so jurors feel they can speak openly and freely without fear of consequences. It's also to preserve the finality of the verdicts. But there are areas we can canvass. Have you been coerced or persuaded to be here today? > Have you been coerced or persuaded to be here today? > Not at all. No. No. You know we have legal difficulties to navigate for you to be here and to speak to us? Yes, I do. And despite that, you're still willing to be here and have your message heard? Yes, I have to. I have been living with this for the last three-and-a-half years and... Three-and-a-half years ago, the woman we'll call the third juror was among those who'd considered the charges against David Bain ` that he murdered his mother, Margaret, and father, Robin, his sisters, Laniet and Arawa, and his brother, Stephen. All were shot dead in their home on Every St, Dunedin in 1994. It was his second trial. MAN: A carton of evidence arrives at court. In his first, David Bain was convicted of the crimes and served 13 years in jail. But after an appeal to the Privy Council and a high-profile campaign for his innocence led by Joe Karam, he was granted a new trial. Members of the jury, have you unanimously agreed upon your verdict? And this time he was acquitted... < WOMAN: Not guilty. < WOMAN: Not guilty. WOMAN: Yes! > < WOMAN: Not guilty. WOMAN: Yes! > CHEERING, APPLAUSE ...in an unanimous decision by 12 jurors, including the one speaking to Sunday tonight. During that trial, the third juror says some of fellow jury members broke an important rule laid out to them by the judge. A rule intended to preserve the sanctity of the jury process. As in any trial, they were told only to assess the evidence they heard and saw in court and not to seek out information from any other source. But the third juror alleges that rule was broken, and while she does not say it had any bearing on the outcome, she is concerned it happened. Uh, one of the jurors brought in some, uh, papers that he had, uh, some articles and things that he had downloaded about Joe Karam's crusade and, uh, took them out of his briefcase and said, 'Oh look. I've, um... 'you know, my wife found these on the internet.' And, uh, I said, 'Well, I'm not interested in looking at them.' And he said, 'Well... Well, they're there. They're there.' And I don't know why he was carrying them around with him. Did he show them to the other jurors? I don't know if he showed them to the rest of the jurors, but he made me aware that he had them. He said he hadn't read them. (SIGHS) And why would he print them out and bring them with him? (CHUCKLES) The judge, in his summing up, mentioned you could come to him. Why didn't you tell the judge about this? He said we could come to him if we had any, uh, questions of legal terminology, legal definitions. But I never took that to mean that we could go to him with anything other than that. As far as I was concerned, the judge was a figurehead who we were not to disturb, uh, with, uh, with anything else, and we were to work everything out on our own. The third juror says that, during the trial, she found out about another transgression by three jurors. I know of three people who, just of their own volition, went to Dunedin for various reasons, not specifically to go and scout out the` Every St. But, um, uh, all three came back after they'd visited there and visited Dunedin and said that they'd gone by where the house used to be, and one person had even taken pictures. Um... You know, I knew this to be wrong. How significant is this material, do you think, you've been told by the juror? Oh, I think I haven't seen anything as significant in 40 years of looking at juries, uh, in NZ. Bill Hodge, associate-professor of law at Auckland University, has been contacted by the third juror for advice. I'm concerned about several aspects. I think, in most trials, a-a visit to the scene is something that should be controlled, and visits are... unruly and possibly a form of misconduct by a... juror that initiates that herself or himself. Bringing extraneous material into the jury room is a matter of great concern, and that again is something that should be subject to control, and if it's being done secretly by a jury person or persons is another form of possible jury misconduct and could be... could be consideration for, um... consideration of jury misconduct and/or contempt of court. Easy access to the internet has put the sanctity of the jury room in all jurisdictions under pressure. There is a contempt-of-court charge against this particular juror. In the UK, where contempt of court is a more formally defined law, a case collapsed after a juror googled a defendant and shared her findings with the jury. She was severely punished. There has been a clear statement and restatement of the law, uh, that jurors must not` must observe the judge's directions and must not carry out research, whether it's on the internet or anywhere else, uh, and must base their decisions on what they hear in court. The juror, Theodara Dallas, was jailed in January this year for six months. This sort of deliberate disregard of a judge's clear instruction utterly undermines, uh, the system of justice in this country. Threatens the future of jury trial, which most people regard as an essential civil liberty. Auckland District Court Judge David Harvey, who addressed the International Criminal Law Congress in September said his research into juries and the internet show that out-of-court information does not always impact on the outcome of a trial. He believes, with good instructions, juries can still do their job. But law professor Bill Hodge isn't so sure. I think it's time to take a look. I think it's time to say, 'Given new means of communication, 'given computers, given the ability to look at Google at home, there are new dynamics, 'and that should be addressed.' I think the Law Commission should take a look at it. The third juror in the Bain retrial goes even further. In her opinion, we should consider relaxing the law that forbids any discussion about jury deliberations. I think that there are times when... it's worthwhile to hear from a jury. And I think that there are times when we can learn important things from what goes on in a jury room. And while she doesn't question the finality of the Bain verdicts, she does want to clarify, from her perspective, the meaning of the verdicts ` not guilty on all counts. I think there's been a lot of confusion about what David Bain's not-guilty verdict in the second trial means. There's been a lot of speculation that it means that he was found innocent, and I was a juror,... (CHUCKLES) and I never found David Bain innocent. That was never what I was asked to find. We were asked whether or not the prosecution... proved the case beyond reasonable doubt that David Bain was guilty, and that they did do. APPLAUSE Despite being acquitted, David Bain continues to face public opinion divided on his guilt or innocence. I feel so nervous. I should have gone to the toilet beforehand. Scrutiny has been intense. Did you kill your family? That's a ridiculous question. David has just spent an hour telling you that he didn't. < Joe, this is a question to David, thank you. (SIGHS) Can I answer that question by saying haven't I answered it? Have I not answered that question for you enough? CHEERING, APPLAUSE Then came the bid for compensation ` money for the quashed convictions and the 13 years David Bain spent in jail. Last year, retired Canadian judge Ian Binnie was appointed by the Government to carry out an independent review of the case. His task ` to decide on the balance of probabilities if Bain is innocent and should be paid compensation. A question the third juror has a view on. I... do not feel that David Bain should get compensation on the balance of probabilities, which is a completely different test than we were asked to look at. She wanted her views known by Justice Binnie, and she wrote to him, enclosing an affidavit, setting out freely and frankly her reasons. Justice Binnie,... he responded to me almost immediately and said, 'Thank you very much for your email, 'um, but I'm not allowed to consider these materials.' He told her the acquittal was his starting point, and his job was not to retry the case. He'd pass her letter on to NZ's Crown Law Office. How did you react to that? > Oh, I was... I was very upset. (CHUCKLES) because I-I didn't understand, for one thing, why he couldn't consider my materials when he had... I knew, uh, that he had asked for Joe Karam's books. Uh, Joe Karam's books were never evidence in the case. Um, and I-I don't know why he was reading them. So, on the one hand, he's considering Joe Karam's books, but on the other, he can't consider the content of your letter to him? but on the other, he can't consider the content of your letter to him? Yes. Justice Binnie did write to a newspaper in February to 'set the record straight' about his request for Joe Karam's books. He said Karam was David Bain's official spokesman, and his books were the clearest indication of the defence position. Justice Binnie also had submissions from the Crown. In total, he had more than 3500 documents before him. In September, Justice Minister Judith Collins announced she'd received Justice Binnie's report. It's as yet confidential, but unconfirmed reports say, on the balance of probabilities, he finds David Bain is innocent, and he recommends compensation. There are recommendations in the report that the Government accepts. Under what basis is, um, something the Cabinet would need to consider. There's no word yet when the decision will be announced. Would you contemplate jury service again? > I absolutely would do jury service again. For... (SIGHS) For all the pain and difficulty and the length and the tedium, I would do it again in a heartbeat. I would do it again in a heartbeat. And to those people who say to you, 'Why would you bother?' I say to them, 'What if you need a jury one day? 'Wouldn't you want somebody like you to be on a jury? On that jury?' If you can say that you would want someone like you, then you must also be on a jury yourself. You must do it. It's a responsibility. When the Law Commission looks at the contempt laws next year, it might consider whether jurors researching on the internet are actually committing a crime. Now, when we come back ` Dame Rosie raising money and burning bras. The hypocrisy of NZ just cannot remain unchallenged. She said that women could do anything, so I went home and thought about this, burnt my bra in the incinerator and` < Literally? < Literally? Uh, yeah, literally, and thought, 'I'm an emancipated woman.' Welcome back. Rosie Horton's given over 40 years to charity, helping raise tens of millions of dollars, and has been made a dame for her good works. Her latest challenge ` Prince Charles' charity dinner in Auckland. John Hudson with Dame Rosie Horton. CLASSICAL MUSIC The glitz and glamour of a royal gala. At the heart of it all, socialite Dame Rosie Horton, hobnobbing with the future King of England. It's a chance to show off that new frock, the family jewels and enjoy some fabulous entertainment. Invitation only, and the cheap seats $700. < It's an awful lot of money to fork out, isn't it? < It's an awful lot of money to fork out, isn't it? It is a lot, but it's a donation,... < Mm. < Mm. ...and it's tax-deductible. We've got about 300 of those. We've got about 300 of those. 300 to do? Oh, you're kidding. For weeks now, Dame Rosie Horton has been helping make this a night to remember ` organising the venue, mailing out the invites, booking the entertainment. A vital link in the committee. So what I've got here, Rosie, is a lot of your tables that I've just put people on. < We don't want Auckland not talking to you, Rosie, as a result of this. < We don't want Auckland not talking to you, Rosie, as a result of this. CHUCKLES: No. It's always an occupational hazard. You have to plan. You have to have strategic plans. It doesn't just happen. I've always got a lawyer alongside whatever I do so that nothing's left to chance. Rosie was a charity worker long before marrying into the wealthy Horton Publishing dynasty. Always immaculate, not a hair out of place, a broad smile, and pearls her constant companions. I wouldn't dream of going to a sponsor or going to a meeting unless I was reasonably groomed and looked as if I was responsible for their brand, their money. Rosie has raised millions, helped thousands and her inspiration,... The hypocrisy of NZ just cannot remain unchallenged. ...feminist Germaine Greer. She said that women could do anything, so I went home and thought about this, burnt my bra in the incinerator and` < Literally? < Literally? Yeah, literally, and thought, 'I'm an emancipated woman.' The next day, lunchtime saw me at Smith & Caughey's, replacing my bras, and so I reverted back to a slightly more forceful woman, but, um, developed my own style to maybe get my own way. Do you see yourself as a feminist? Do you see yourself as a feminist? Yeah, I-I get` yeah, so I suppose I do in a way. But I-I work more under the radar, I think. Topp twins Jools and Lynda long-term friends and admirers. Is she the perfumed bulldozer, though? No, I don't think I've ever seen Rosie as a bulldozer. I think she's enthusiastic, and I think she's always extremely positive. She's more of, sort of, a, um, a digger with a long arm. It means that she's got that long reach. Sh-She can reach out and say, 'I want you to come here to commit, to help me. 'I-I need you. I need you.' For more than 40 years, Rosie has been reaching out at galas, balls and fetes. She's the queen of charity. My poor friends get badgered, and they think, 'Oh my God. Here she comes again. 'I thought she'd given all this nonsense up.' It helps that many of Rosie's friends are not only wealthy but also philanthropic. She wouldn't have been able to do this if she hadn't had that charisma and that personality. I mean, she single-handedly raised about $10m for breast cancer. Yeah, that's just Rosie. That's just breast cancer? > That's just breast cancer? > Just breast cancer. What is it about raising money for charity that turns you on? I suppose it's the challenge of the chase. Whatever I do, I feel excited and exhilarated about, and I'm always very aware in the morning. (CLEARS THROAT) I get up and get dressed and think, 'Oh, it's another exciting day. 'What do I...? You know, I've got a full... a full diary.' My husband said to me, 'For goodness sake, I don't want the same old thing as last year. 'So get some ideas.' They're not all big events. Just days before the royal gala, Rosie's raising money for World Child Cancer with a home tour. Hi, Rosie. Nice to meet you. Hi, Rosie. Nice to meet you. I'm a terrible cook, so my hubby said, 'Watch what's going on.' Oh, no worries at all. It can be a stressful business? It can be a stressful business? No, it is, and before an event, if I'm having to front it, I will have a quiet moment to myself and say, 'You can do it, and you will do it, 'and I know you can do it, and I've got confidence you can do it.' And I have a wee chat to myself and then I sally forth and hope it all comes together. What have been the standout moments for you over the past 40 years of fundraising? The Starship Children's Hospital has been, I'd say, a passionate love of mine. There are too many things that Starship didn't have. There were no basic things like pushchairs. They had a portable X-ray machine that, when the operator worked it, sometimes she got an electric shock. You know, things that horrified me. She's got a good heart. A really good heart. She's not a snob. You know, when there was talk of Rosie being a dame, we just backed that to the hilt. That girl needs some major recognition. She's not just a socialite. She's a bloody hard worker, you know? She's not just a socialite. She's a bloody hard worker, you know? Hey, Michael. And behind every good woman, there's often a supportive man. Is it time to stop for her yet or...? No way. No, no. She'd go shopping if she stopped. No way. No, no. She'd go shopping if she stopped. ALL CHUCKLE And then a tweak. She can't stop now. There's a royal gala to organise. There's our first course, which we'll have tomorrow night. Peter Gordon is putting the finishing touches to his menu. And then the main course, we've got beef, sugar snaps and beans. And this is a celeriac gratin, so it's got a bit of potato just to hold it in place. It's a type of beef called Wakanui beef. A dash of jus, roast beetroot, carrots and voila ` a meal fit for a future king. We shall treasure this reminder of the special, uh, character of NZ's people. Kind, compassionate and humorous, and yet resilient, determined and purposeful. It's almost as though he's talking about Dame Rosie. What's the best moment for you when you're running a royal gala? At the end of the night when it's all gone well and we've raised a lot of money and everyone feels really really good. That's the best moment. Well, the royal dinner raised than $500,000 for charities throughout the Commonwealth. I will be back in just a moment. So we welcome you back just to say goodnight. That's our show for the year. The 10th year of Sunday. Thank you for your company. We look forward to seeing you for the next decade of Sunday on February 10th.