On Sunday tonight, the petite Kiwi scientist who took on the terrorists. GUNFIRE I felt the air move on my face as the bullet went by. The Kiwi scientist... All of us knew we could be killed. ...staring down the barrel. We were in this tug of war over an AK-47. You had the gun in your hand. You had the gun in your hand. Yes. You had the gun in your hand. Yes. Did you consider shooting him? # Waterloo. # I was defeated; you won the war. # Why did the music stop? We had had too much of everything, I think. ABBA's secrets revealed. # So when you're near me, darling, can't you hear me? SOS. # 'I prefer to use my vagina for fun, not function.' You heard right. Bottles are for bubbles, not baby formula. Smart, successful and no babies. She wants to be a mum. That's a very strange ambition. Kia ora. I'm Miriama Kamo. Remember the music? Remember ABBA's glammy blonde? You'll love tonight's story. But first, Kiwi scientist Mary Quin is a gutsy no-nonsense kind of woman. So when Mary was kidnapped in Yemen while on holiday, it was the kidnappers ` the terrorists ` who copped it. She stomped on one's head, abused him and took his AK-47. And after dodging bullets and making her escape, Mary went hunting for those behind her kidnapping. It led to a confrontation with the notorious, rabble-rousing, hate-talking, hook-handed, eye-patched Muslim cleric Abu Hamza. Ian Sinclair with Mary Quin. HAUNTING ARABIC MUSIC The scenery, the culture, uh, the architecture ` just a very fascinating country to visit, and it still is. Yemen, on the tip of the Arabian Peninsula. It was the latest destination for Kiwi adventurer Mary Quin. It was a group of 19 tourists and a trip leader and our five Yemeni drivers, and it was a circuit through Yemen to see the highlights of the country. They were travelling through Yemen's southern desert, known as the Empty Quarter, infamous for lawlessness and kidnappings. Their drivers were armed. At about 11 in the morning, a pickup truck loaded with men in the back suddenly cut off the second of the vehicles in our convoy of five vehicles. It turns out these men were armed. A Kiwi in a foreign land ` extremely foreign land. You don't speak the language. Suddenly you're surrounded by armed men. How did you deal with that? The initial reaction was, 'I can't believe this is happening. We're actually being kidnapped.' So it was a case more of fascination than fear at the beginning. Holding her at gunpoint was one of America's most wanted ` Abu Hassan. Abu Hassan was the nom de guerre, if you like, of the leader of the group that kidnapped us that I found out much later was the Aden-Abyan Islamic army. that I found out much later was the Aden-Abyan Islamic army. A man not to mess with. Uh, no, not at all. Uh, someone that really had a background as a mujahideen in Afghanistan. So you were caught up with some pretty serious jihadist fighters here. But I think a good thing was that most of us on that trip had travelled extensively. I'd probably been in about 60 countries. Travel was a passion for this high-flying executive. Like many NZers, I have the travel gene, and I believe there is emerging scientific evidence there is such a thing. Her PhD in Science had helped her on to America's corporate ladder. For me, corporations had always been a great way to experience the world. Another way ` adventure holidays. I'd been down into parts of South America and, of course, did a quite lengthy trip ` a camping trip ` for several months through about 15 countries in Africa. But for Mary, this time Yemen was turning from an exotic trip to a matter of life and death. They took us to an area, uh, just in the desert. There was no sign of any habitation. How did they treat you? They, uh... Initially, it seemed they were quite, uh, anxious and nervous themselves. Some of them were quite young ` teenagers, even. They camped there for one night. With dawn came far more danger ` GUNFIRE government troops intent on attack. This is when it really did become dangerous, when, I think, all of us knew we could be killed, because they did use us as human shields. So we had 11 of us of the 16 hostages together at this point, and they had us stand up on the dirt wall on one side of this field, and the kidnappers were lying down firing from behind the dirt wall, literally between our legs. GUNFIRE How close did the bullets fly? Well, there were a couple of times when I felt the air move on my face as a bullet went by, so it was plenty close enough, and they actually have that zinging noise that sounds just like it does in the movies. Frightening? Frightening? Uh,... yes, but... not the kind of` not what I had imagined fear would be in that situation. I think you just keep thinking, 'OK, try to pay attention to what's happening. 'What are our options for getting out of the situation?' Then one of the kidnappers turned his gun on Mary. He kept pushing behind me. He had his Kalashnikov AK-47 right against my spine ` the barrel ` and came... kept pushing behind me, pushing me forward with his gun out across the field. Then suddenly couldn't feel the gun. And so I turned to look behind me to see where he was and saw that he was lying on the ground. So started to make a run for it, just two or three steps, and suddenly I thought of all the movies where the bad guy gets that one last shot off when you think he's disabled or dead. So I went back and thought I'd better take his gun with me so he can't use it, and leaned down and didn't want to get close enough to him that he could reach out and maybe grab my ankle and pull me off balance. So I had to grab the barrel of the gun, and, uh,... to my shock at the time ` because I wasn't expecting this ` he grabbed the stock, so we were in this tug of war over an AK-47. It was really quite bizarre. But he was screaming at me, and I was screaming at him. Finally I stomped my foot down on his head, and that sort of gave me leverage to wrench the gun out of his control, and then I made a run for it. How did it feel to turn the tables? How did it feel to turn the tables? Yeah, well, actually, I mean, that part was quite exhilarating. It was quite fun. And I remember thinking to myself, 'So this is why men like war.' (CHUCKLES) I mean, it was` yeah, it was pretty exciting, and that was kind of a point where it's, well, all the bets are off here, so you may as well just, you know, go all out, and, uh... Yeah, it was; it was quite exciting. You had the gun in your hand. You had the gun in your hand. Yes. You had the gun in your hand. Yes. Did you consider shooting him? Uh, I think that I would have, but I had no clue other than what end the bullet came out, so decided to leave him where he was and make a run for it. And you made it. And you made it. I did fortunately, and the thing that was really quite bizarre that I was thinking as I was running was, 'This AK-47 is a hell of a souvenir. I wonder if I can get it through US Customs.' (CHUCKLES) That's what I was thinking. And then as I got close to the dirt wall on the other side, where I believed the solders were probably in the trees back there, I thought, 'I really shouldn't run at them carrying this gun, because I don't know if they know who I am.' Mary had survived, but four of the group were killed. Well, that was obviously the devastating thing about the whole experience that four people needlessly lost their lives. All the more reason to turn Mary from victim to investigator. I had been very curious about why the kidnapping happened. Who were the kidnappers? What was their purpose in taking us hostage? Back home in Rochester, New York, she turned cop, setting up a whiteboard, piecing together evidence. So, um, I did, you know, as much research as I could. And it all led to this man. Abu Hamza at the time of the kidnapping was, um, a... a` a preacher, I guess would be the right term, at a mosque in London. Abu Hamza ` Britain's public enemy number one. Abu Hamza's son, uh, was, uh, captured, and he was in the company of two of the kidnappers when he was captured. Time, Mary decided, she had a talk with Abu Hamza. So I figured if I just flew to London and went to the mosque, I could possibly talk to him and find out more from him about what he knew about the kidnapping, what his relationship was with Abu Hassan and what he knew about his son. And against all odds, a very surprised Abu Hamza agreed to talk on tape about a phone call he received.. from Mary's own captor, Abu Hassan. And did he say what advice he gave to Abu Hassan? Um, he told me that he had, uh,... been insistent that they not harm the hostages. That call made on this satellite phone given to her captors by Abu Hamza himself. Do you draw any satisfaction in having confronted him? I'm glad I had that opportunity to talk to him directly, absolutely. I mean, it was a very interesting interview to be part of and in the light of what's happened since. Not so much drawing satisfaction from it, but it was certainly a very helpful piece of trying to piece together how the kidnapping happened and why. Meanwhile, Mary the survivor says that brush with death put her life into a clearer perspective. Now Mary the scientist is back home in NZ and sticking to the day job. NZers are very creative and inventive, but many of our businesses don't grow as quickly from their good ideas as they could. So she's heading up a brand new government agency ` Callaghan Innovation. So Callaghan Innovation is focused on finding ways to help NZ businesses become bigger, faster than they might have otherwise. As for Abu Hamza, he's now detained in America on terrorism charges. Will you give evidence? Will you give evidence? If I'm called upon, I'll do my best as a witness to provide what I know. But at this point it remains to be seen how that trial unfolds. Possibly one more encounter, then, for the woman who snatched the gun off her Arab captors. Don't mess with Mary. Don't mess with Mary. Well, uh, in that instance, no. You try to do your best to stay alive, really, and so you get to play the next round. So as Mary mentioned, she could be called to testify when Abu Hamza goes on trial for kidnapping next year. In the meantime, American jailers have taken Abu Hamza's hooked prosthetics off him. Well, after the break ` why did the music stop? ABBA's secrets revealed. ALL CHANT: We want ABBA! We want ABBA! Agnetha, welcome back. > Thank you very much. # I was defeated; you won the war. # Waterloo. # Hello again. When superband ABBA split in '83, they took their secrets with them. But what tore them apart? What caused the marriage break-up? Why did they stop the music? And perhaps the most intriguing mystery, what became of Agnetha, the blonde bombshell who won our hearts? Well, tonight she breaks her silence. Agnetha, welcome back. > Thank you very much. These are the ABBA group ` Bjorn, Frida, Anna, who's just beside her with the long blonde hair, and Benny. If you can work that out, that's why they're called ABBA, because in fact, it's Benny, Bjorn, Anni-Frid and Anna. Their song is called` Oh, and it's Napoleon! Napoleon! No wonder ` their song is called Waterloo. In 1974, a song about 1815 propelled a Swedish group to global fame. # ...at Waterloo, Napoleon did surrender. # Oh yeah. And I have met my destiny in quite a similar way. They won Eurovision, but it would be Australia that would help ABBA conquer the world. # ...repeating itself. # Waterloo. # I was defeated; you won the war. # Waterloo. Promise to love you for evermore. When ABBA mania swept Australia,... # ...couldn't escape if I wanted to. # ....Europe, America and Japan followed. # You feel bad. Let me tell ya, # we all get the blues. # ABBA sang, they succeeded and then, very suddenly, in 1983, they split. INTRIGUING MUSIC Most mysterious of all, Agnetha retreated to an island outside Stockholm with her two children. For nearly 30 years, the blonde who had captivated millions was gone. # When you're gone,... # ...how can I even try to go on? # # When you're gone, # how can I even try to go on? Tonight she's back. # When you're gone, though I tried, how can I carry on? All my childhood, I mean, I was dreaming about this ` to be a singer and to be famous. (SINGS IN SWEDISH) You were in a band by the time you were 15, and you had a number-one record in Sweden when you were, what, 17? Yes. I recorded two singles at the same time when I was 17. And then they came up through the charts and went to number one. AGNETHA SINGS IN SWEDISH The guys in the band swear that I fell in love just by hearing her voice. Is that true? Is that true? I mean... I-I... Yes, I think so. (SINGS IN SWEDISH) ALL SING IN SWEDISH Bjorn Ulvaeus was a star in his own right. In 1969, on Swedish television, they appeared together. ALL SING IN SWEDISH BJORN: And we did a duet together. After that, we were very soon a couple. It was so far from our minds that we should work together. We were just,... you know, met socially and that was that. What are the odds against that? And at the same time, Benny meets this redhead who is beautiful and an equally good singer! And we don't even have the idea that we should do something together until three years later. ABBA was anything but an overnight success. I'm on my way to Gothenburg. Here, in a small photographic agency, tucked away in a forgotten archive, 43-year-old negatives of ABBA's first performance. Oh, wow! These are amazing. This is where the foursome first performed publicly as a group, on 1 November 1970, at the Tradgarn Club in Gothenburg. That night they called themselves Festfolk, a Swedish word with the clever double meaning of 'party people' and 'engaged couples'. 'HEY, GAMLE MAN' So, we've got some photos here. Do you remember this? Oh my God. Yes. Yes, I do. I had hoped that this was completely forgotten. (LAUGHS) I'm so sorry. (LAUGHS) I'm so sorry. It was embarrassing. But it was after that tour that we realised, 'Our own songs. That's what we should do.' Do you remember performing Waterloo at Brighton? Yes. Describe for me what you were feeling when you ran out and started singing. > Scary. (LAUGHS) It was very very scary. # Waterloo. Couldn't escape if I wanted to. BJORN: I remember being so nervous, uh, because, you know, it was such a big thing. Incredibly big for us. APPLAUSE Traditionally, Eurovision Song Contest winners seem to be one-hit wonders, so you had a bit of trouble breaking into the market after that, didn't you? Mm. We did. We... We chose the wrong song as the follow-up. # Love me or leave me. And in everybody's minds, it seemed that they had decided, 'They'll be forgotten.' And, uh, it was a struggle. And I... I... You know, we have our Australian friends to thank for the fact that we came back in the way that we did. I honestly think so. Because by that time ` this is probably a year later ` we had recorded SOS and Mamma Mia. # I've been cheated by you since I don't know when. # So I made up my mind it must come to an end. And we, of course, having just had a little child, Agnetha and I didn't want to travel. I don't think Benny and Frida didn't want to travel either. So then we thought, 'Let's try and do such a production of the songs,...' # Just one look and I can hear a bell ring. # One more look and I forget everything. # Whoa. # Mamma mia, # here I go again. My, my... '...and then send it to them and see what happens?' # Mamma mia, # does it show again, # my, my, # just how much I've missed you? And that was kind of the birth of the video. I don't think people had done that before. # Why, why did I ever let you go? And, of course, that took Mamma Mia to number one in Australia. The Brits, looking at the Australian charts, 'What is this? There's still life in this group? 'There's not supposed to be life in this group. It's supposed to be dead. 'Maybe we have to release, you know, SOS.' And they did, and the rest is history. < You remember the words? Uh, not quite right now. Let's see. < # So when... # So when you're near me, darling, can't you hear me? SOS. # The love you gave me, nothing else could save me. SOS. # When you're gone,... # When you're gone,... BOTH: # ...how can I even try to go on? # You seem so far away, though you are standing near. # You made me feel alive, but something died, I fear. # I really tried to make it out. # I wish I understood. # What happened to our love? It used to be so good. # So when you're near me, darling, can't you hear me? SOS. # The love you gave me, nothing else can save me. SOS. # When you're gone, how can I even try to go on? Oh man, I'm loving this story. And it just gets better. Why at the peak of their popularity did ABBA just stop? And whatever happened to Agnetha? Stay with us. # If you change your mind,... # If you change your mind,... # Take a chance, take a chance. # If you change your mind,... # Take a chance, take a chance. # ...I'll be first in line. I start to think, 'Where am I?' I wanted to have a rest and build me up again. Had had too much of everything, I think. # If you've got no place to go, when you're feeling down. # If you think all home-loan rates are the same, check out ANZ's best-ever home-loan offer, with all the bells and whistles. 4.95% per annum one year fixed, plus $1000 cash on us. Conditions apply. So, we're back with ABBA. And now the personal stuff. Why did Agnetha slip off the radar? And what caused the marriage with Bjorn to break down? And then we watch the shy girl handle some very personal questions from the Aussie media. ALL CHANT: We want ABBA! We want ABBA! # Money, money, money. # Must be funny # in the rich man's world. # Money, money, money. # Do you take drugs or alcohol or anything like that? Do you take drugs or alcohol or anything like that? No drugs. No drugs. You're clean? You're clean? No, not clean, but we don't take any drugs. I read somewhere where you are the proud owner of an award which declares you as the lady with the most sexiest bottom. which declares you as the lady with the most sexiest bottom. LAUGHTER Is that true? How can I answer to that? I don't know. I haven't seen it. Now, I'd like to apologise on behalf of our nation's obsession with your bottom. Oh. # ...as I look around the room. And it makes me so depressed to see the room. # Well,... it could be worse things. BOTH LAUGH How did you feel about that at the time? You were, I guess, one of the biggest sex symbols in the world. We didn't think about that so much, actually ` neither Frida or I ` but we were, of course, very aware of, when we were on the stage, that they thought that we were something special. That gave us a very... nice feeling, really, and also the fact that we were so different. CROWD CHANTS: We want ABBA! We want ABBA! We want ABBA! Hello, Sydney! Very glad to see you. Let me tell you one thing. You make us forget the rain. The crowds came; the heavens opened. It was almost biblical. Everyone had umbrellas. 30,000, 40,000 umbrellas at the same time going up. It was fantastic. # You can dance. # You can jive. # Having the time of your life. # People everywhere knew the songs. They were singing with us. It's an amazing feeling, really, to feel so loved. We never forget it, because it's such a good memory. CROWD CHEERS Yet for all the love and adulation, the tour was also a turning point. I think that it's a bit of an unsocial life on tour. Uh, you just eat, sleep, and go on stage and nothing more, and it... kills creativity in a way that I don't like. One day when I woke up in our Europe tour, I start to think, 'Where am I? In which city?' And it's terrible, you know? The four friends ` two couples ` were finding it increasingly difficult to live in each other's pockets. It must have been very intense ` like a four-way marriage? It was. It was like that. I mean... And even if there were very funny times, there were periods when we were very irritated as well, because we were tired. We were tired of travelling so much and living in hotels. You didn't have time for so much other things. On Christmas Day 1978, Agnetha left Bjorn. A year later, they divorced, but the band went on. Do you think being in ABBA destroyed your marriage or actually kept it going longer than it might have? Um... (EXHALES) Difficult to say, but, no, I don't think it destroyed the marriage, because as human beings, we were growing apart anyway. So that was` that's the reason why we got divorced, not because of the group. # I don't want to talk # about things we've gone through. # Though it's hurting me, # now it's history. Was it difficult to watch Agnetha sing that song at that time in your life? That was... kind of cleansing. # Nothing more to say. # No more ace to play. # I had written the words, she sang them, and it was somehow the right thing to do. It was a bit, uh, sensitive for all of us, but I just had to go into it and tell the story. In 1983, ABBA broke up. In the years following, Agnetha slipped out of sight. This is beautiful. This is beautiful. Yeah, this is a beautiful view, isn't it? She bought a home on an island outside Stockholm and withdrew from the public gaze. Now, people like to paint you as a recluse. Mm. I think that started when we had done the ABBA years and we were very tired. And both Frida and I were feeling that we have to have some relax time and just be for yourself and just to rest, because we had had too much of everything, I think. So there were some years that I wanted to just be for myself and build me up again. And then it's easily done that these rumours start ` 'She's like Greta Garbo,' and, 'She doesn't want to meet anyone,' and, 'She's kind of mysterious lady,' in a way. And it's strange to read that things about yourself when it's not like that at all. You just want to have a quiet life. # Soul searching. # Heart broken. This year, Agnetha went back into the studio to release this album ` her first original material in 25 years. And she's sounding great. # Time passes. Some say you're only crying in the dark. # What are you hoping for with this album? Uh, I hope it will be a big success. # If you change your mind,... # If you change your mind,... # Take a chance, take a chance. # If you change your mind,... # Take a chance, take a chance. # ...I'll be first in line. # Honey, I'm still free. # Take a chance on me. # Take a chance on me. # Take a chance, take a chance. # Take a chance on me. # Take a chance, take a chance. # If you need me, let me know. # Gonna be around. # If you got no place to go, # when you're feeling down. # ABBA will never get back together, will they? I don't think so, no. We have had our time, and I think we should let ABBA rest and just listen to the music. # So long. See you, honey. # You can't buy me with your money. # Tracy, Daisy, they may be crazy, # but I'll never be your girl. # So long. See you, honey. # You can't buy me with your money. # You know it's not worth trying. # So long, # so long, # so long. (HUMS) MUSIC CONTINUES Good. Good. This is the most incredible day ever, honestly. Thank you. We love you. Thank you. Goodbye. We had a good time. Oh, I'm a bit jealous of Rahni Sadler, the reporter. Now, while Agnetha is back recording, she's raised two children and is a grandmother. Bjorn's new love is his ABBA museum in Stockholm, packed full of music, pictures and memories. Now, when we come back ` trends. Growing numbers of smart, successful young women who don't want a bar of motherhood. (GIGGLES) She wants to be a mum. That's a very strange ambition. (GIGGLES) Just give me a one-word response when I say words, like, childbirth. Just give me a one-word response when I say words, like, childbirth. No. < Baby. < Baby. No, thank you. If you think all home-loan rates are the same, check out ANZ's best-ever home-loan offer, with all the bells and whistles. 4.95% per annum one year fixed, plus $1000 cash on us. Conditions apply. Why are more and more smart and successful young women deciding against having babies? It used to be so simple ` grow up, get married, start a family. Well, not now. More and more women are saying, 'Kids, who needs them?' Rahni Sadler again with the 'wilfully barren', as they call themselves. (GIGGLES) Just give me a one-word response when I say words, like, um, childbirth. No. No. < Baby. No. < Baby. No, thank you. She's only 30, but Alana long ago decided she'd never have a baby. Alana is child free by choice. Champagne, ladies? Champagne, ladies? Yes, please. So bottles are for bubbles, not baby formula. No late nights soothing sleepless kids, but late nights with friends who all feel the same way. And never getting the Bali baby. And never getting the Bali baby. And never getting the Bali baby. They don't care if people have names for women like them. She wants to be a mum. That's a very strange ambition. They have a few of their own. Wilfully barren and the barren-esses. What's the key thing that the barren-esses share? Um, we are females and we have chosen not to have children. Not so very long ago, it seemed every young woman's dreams for the future included having babies. Just like their mums, they'd want to raise a family all their own. I take my hat off to those who do it and who want to do it. It's jut not for me. Like, the idea of it makes me freak out. You'll change your mind. As Alana grew up, she never grew clucky. She comes from a loving family, she loves her sister's two children, but when the right bloke comes along, having kids herself won't be part of the deal. She was in year 12 when she made the decision. We had a class, and we were asked where we saw ourselves the next, sort of, 10 years or so, and one of the girls said that, 'By 25, I'm gonna have two children ` 'one boy, one girl. These are their names.' And I remember thinking, 'No, that's not something that I'm interested in,' and nothing's changed. Norma, how do you manage to have such a lovely complexion? She's got two children, and she looks so young. By the end of this decade, one in five Australian women over the age of 45 will be child free. Not having kids is becoming fertile territory. I've just never really felt maternal. I've never had that clucky feeling. I've never dreamt about having a baby in my arms. I've never dreamt about raising a child and seeing, you know` watching them grow. It's one of those things that's just never been part of me. Shelly Horton and her sound engineer boyfriend Darren Robinson have been together a year. Mmm. Mmm. Romance. Romance. Romance. I just want to wipe my hand. Romance. I just want to wipe my hand. (LAUGHS) When they first met, they quickly found common ground. Our first discussion was ` or one of our first discussions, I should say ` was about children, and Shelly asked me, and I said straight away, 'No, not really.' And Shelly said, 'Great.' Big sigh of relief from me. Big sigh of relief from me. BOTH LAUGH Phew. Phew. Second question was, 'What's your surname?' BOTH LAUGH Shelly is well known for having an opinion or three. ...lead to body-image issues. On Sunrise, she gives as good as she gets. I get it. (LAUGHS) Come on. But when she wrote this Sun Herald newspaper column about not wanting kids, 'I have a friend who's admitted that her ovaries ache every time she sees a woman pushing a pram. 'I've cried with her. 'But being child free means you've made a conscious decision not to have children. 'It's the last female taboo.' She got as good as she gave. And there was one saying, 'I think it's best that you do remain child free.' A bit harsh. I have been called selfish, a burden on society, a psychopath, and I even was abused for using the term 'clucky', because I was obviously implying that all women are like battery hens. Really? How do you think women without children are treated as opposed to mothers? Oh, as a freak show. Very much so. You are assumed that there's something wrong with you or something's happened to you that's made you change your mind, because the natural status for a woman is to want to have children, and if you don't fit that, then, you know, something's happened or you need to be fixed. 'American comedian Rita Rudner once said, "My husband and I are either going to buy a dog or have a child. '"We can't decide whether to ruin the carpet or ruin our lives." 'I love jokes about it, because no matter how much I phrase it, I'm judged.' It makes me feel quite bad about myself. It makes me feel like my worth as a human being is dependent on my reproducing. I like to think that my womb is not my worth. I'm more of a human being than that. Even so, the big question remains ` why do they do it? Or in this case, not do it? Which of life's gifts could possibly be more alluring than the gift of life? Well, we've got four international trips booked this year alone. You know, if we had kids going through private school and mouths to feed, you just wouldn't have that extra, you know, income or time to be able to do that, so we're certainly living life to the full. I got a barracuda! But there are women who have children and regret it. How do you describe children in your book? How do you describe children in your book? The child is a vicious, cruel dwarf. BOTH LAUGH Child-rearing is war. You have to fight against your child, and he will fight against you. Why is it so taboo for people to admit that they regret having children? Because children are idealised, so everyone is supposed to say that they love children, that nothing is more beautiful than the smile on a child's face, that they are our future, so nobody dares say that they are fed up with children and that sometimes they would like to do something else than raising them. French author Corinne Maier courted controversy with her best-seller 40 Reasons Not to Have Children. Most controversial of all is that she has two kids of her own. What do you think of women who don't have children? I think they are lucky. (LAUGHS) I think they are lucky. For the penultimate word, we turn to a woman who never planned to be a mum. Babies ` no. I was terrified of babies. Terrified. The first baby I ever held was my own in hospital. And it was life changing. In her 20s, Trish Murray was a model running her own agency. She didn't want kids to slow her down, even after she got married. But then the unexpected happened. She fell pregnant. And the next thing, she was a model mum to baby Jemma. I felt instant love and not like romantic love. I just had an instant... Oh, it's so overused. I had an instant bond. I just had this wow moment, going... Who wants to go to the beach? Who wants to go to the beach? GIRLS SCREAM She now has two daughters... and all their friends. Her life's not her own. And she wouldn't have it any other way. How has it turned out for you now you have 10- and 11-year-old kids? Oh, I... I'm so lucky. My life is so different to what I thought it was going to be. It's given me purpose. 'And trust me, it's a lot more fun to say I prefer to use my vagina for fun, not function, 'than actually expose my vulnerabilities. 'For me, it all boils down to one thing ` I've just never felt clucky.' What do you say to people who say, 'Oh, you'll change your mind'? I would like to just reverse it and say, 'Why is it OK to say to me, "Oh, you'll change your mind," 'but it's not OK for me to say to a pregnant woman, "Oh, you'll change your mind"?' It's just as offensive. It really is. So perhaps just, uh, zip it. Well, we'll be back in a moment with someone special to us here at Sunday. If you think all home-loan rates are the same, check out ANZ's best-ever home-loan offer, with all the bells and whistles. 4.95% per annum one year fixed, plus $1000 cash on us. Conditions apply. Well, just before we go tonight, we'd like to honour one of our own ` senior Sunday cameraman Ken Dorman. He's a crucial member of our team, filmed some of our most significant stories, but he has never ever appeared on the show himself. Until now. Here he is being decorated by the Governor General in the Queen's Birthday honours. We affectionately call him Sir Ken. OK, he didn't get a knighthood, but he did get a Queen's Service Medal for services to broadcasting and the community, and we are very proud of him. So that was Ken's big occasion. Now for his work. No matter where, no matter what, if TVNZ's Sunday programme was there, Ken was likely to be filming it ` from war zones to weddings. FUNKY, DRAMATIC MUSIC And when purity finally gives in to lust, Angel and Josiah will be formally married. JARRING MUSIC A remarkable, spine-tingling, show-stopping quality. FUNKY, DRAMATIC MUSIC Ken Dorman for his coverage of the Queen Street riots. Ken Dorman for his coverage of the Queen Street riots. APPLAUSE I just thank all those that made it possible. Thank you. I just thank all those that made it possible. Thank you. APPLAUSE Kyoko is buried in the same cemetery as her ancestors. Put my hands together like this and then pray for her. FUNKY, DRAMATIC MUSIC GUNFIRE We're walking down what's called Sniper Alley. Overhead is anti-aircraft fire and tank fire. If that wasn't enough to contend with, there is also the constant dangers of sniper fire. HAUNTING MUSIC FUNKY, DRAMATIC MUSIC TRAIN WHISTLE BLOWS She's the Kingston Flyer. FUNKY, DRAMATIC MUSIC Lovely stuff and lovely man too, our Ken. Well, that's our show for tonight. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week, and we'll see you next Sunday. We'll leave you with a bit of ABBA. Nga mihi nui, hei kona. # So when you're near me, darling, can't you hear me? SOS. # The love you gave me, nothing else can save me. SOS. # When you're gone, how can I even try to go on?