Tonight on Sunday ` a Kiwi father and son on the savage mountain. How did it all go wrong? And I'm really mad at the mountain. (CHUCKLES) It claimed her dad... Growing up, I knew he'd die on a mountain. ...and her brother. That's the real tragedy in it. Charmian is anything but a gangster's moll. What about your children, Mrs Biggs? Where are they are? A story of love, loyalty, betrayal and survival. I think his share was about �110,000. The wife of Great Train Robber Ronnie Biggs. AUDIENCE CHEERS How does it feel when you walk out on to a stage and everybody is going nuts? The Mac is back and headed our way. # Go your own way. Sex, drugs, rock and roll... # ...lonely day. ....and Fleetwood Mac. # You can go your own way. # Go your own way. # Copyright TVNZ Access Services 2013 Kia ora. I'm Miriama Kamo. They were in it together, attempting something never achieved by a father and son ` Marty Schmidt, a legend among mountaineers, and his son, Denali, a passionate climber. The Kiwis were attempting the notoriously dangerous peak K2. It took both their lives when they were swallowed by an avalanche as they slept on a ledge 7000m up. Makes you wonder ` why do mountaineers do it and why did these men choose not to abandon the climb when others did? Tonight Sequoia ` Marty's daughter, Denali's sister ` shares her grief, her memories with Peter Cronshaw. OMINOUS MUSIC MAN PERFORMS BUDDHIST CHANT You know, growing up... with Dad as a climber, he lost a lot of close friends, a lot of climbing buddies, and he always told me when it's your time to go, it's your time to go. MUSIC CONTINUES K2 in the background. Got to get back there in 2013 and make a gallant effort of the north ridge. The mountains were... definitely home for him. Beautiful day. He always said it was his calling,... (CHUCKLES) especially K2. Much love to everyone, uh, and to all my family. Denali, Sequoia, love you guys very much. My whole life, growing up, I knew he'd die on a mountain. What about your brother, Denali? What about your brother, Denali? Nah. Not in a million years did I think that Denali would die on a mountain, I think that's... for me, that's the real tragedy in it. OMINOUS MUSIC More than twice the height of Mt Cook, K2 is known as the savage mountain. One in four climbers who summit it are killed. On the 26th or 27th of July, it claimed the lives of two Kiwis ` Marty Schmidt and his son, Denali. Even if Dad survived up there, if he knew Denali was gone, he wouldn't have come back; he would have stayed up there and died with him. You know, that was his only son. He was his only son. Based in America, Sequoia is Marty Schmidt's only daughter. Had her father and brother conquered K2, they would have been the first father and son team in the world to do so. And I'm really mad... at the mountain. (CHUCKLES) I'm really mad at life for taking him, but I'm really at peace... I'm really at peace with... (SNIFFS) with their choices and their decisions. Born in California, Marty Schmidt came to NZ 25 years ago, fell in love with the country, the people, and proudly called NZ home. Tell me, was your dad American or was he Kiwi? Kiwi. (CHUCKLES) All the way Kiwi. It was in Hastings this Kiwi chose to raise his two kids, Denali and Sequoia. He was crazy. (CHUCKLES) He taught me the necessities in life ` pitching a tent and... (CHUCKLES) all that kind of stuff. Kinda hard to be a daughter of his, just cos he didn't understand high heels and nails. (CHUCKLES) He felt most at peace in the vertical world. He just lived his life in the horizontal world but felt most at home in the vertical world. (SHOUTS) Ah, cold snow drift. Marty loved to live life on the edge of his comfort zone. He got to the top of Mt Everest twice. BEHIND CAMERA: This is my buddy Ali. He came all the way... to greet me on the glacier with a cup of tea! He also conquered most of the world's highest peaks, including five 8000m mountains without oxygen. OK, I'm going to take some photos in panorama view and hope everyone enjoys this. But K2 had always eluded him, always been his nemesis. In '92 he came, like, 300m from the summit, and the winds were so strong that if he went up, it would blow him off the edge. And he told` he told us when he got back that, um, the reason he didn't continue on was because he heard voices telling him that his kids needed him... his kids needed him to come home. I guess this time he didn't hear voices. (CHUCKLES) GENTLE GUITAR MUSIC The mountains, the outdoors were Marty Schmidt's church. Isn't it great? There's Aoraki. And Gus Roxburgh was just one of his many converts. Awesome, mate. Whoo! Isn't that the way to do it? So, 25 times you've been up Aoraki. That's incredible, mate. Is it still a buzz every time? Every time. Every time. When you find a calling on this earth, and you find passion, you know what you do to make a living, it's the ultimate. Marty ` I think the only way you could describe him was he was a force of nature. I mean, the guy had so much energy and enthusiasm. I mean, it just came pouring out of him. Climbing mountains for him wasn't... it wasn't a matter of conquering the mountain. You know, it wasn't a kinda 'knock the bastard off' thing at all. It was... It was a spiritual thing. It had a spiritual aspect to it, and, uh, it was very much a respect thing. This footage, shot for the upcoming series Wild About NZ, was the last of Marty in action in NZ. All this training gets us on the summit of Aoraki Mt Cook, right, Gus? That's the idea. On screen, the talk was all about Aoraki; off screen, it was all about K2. He was so looking forward to that trip. He climbed Everest just a couple of months before, but, uh... but it was going to k2 with his son, Denali, that` that was the thing that` you know, he was so fired up about it. So, um, yeah, you know, it's... it's tragic, and it's hard to believe. Denali, a San Francisco art college graduate, was etching a name for himself as an artist in America. he shared his father's passion for the outdoors, and it was reflected in much of his work. There's so much he wanted to do. Like,... that's what kills me. It's just, like, he... had so much more life left` left to live. GENTLE PIANO MUSIC Larissa Minerva was Denali's long-time girlfriend and is still struggling to come to terms with the loss. I just wish I hadn't let him go. I had such a bad feeling about it, and, I mean, I don't think I could've stopped him. He wanted to go so bad. (SNIFFS) Almost there at apex camp. Good job, mate. Marty and Denali were father and son, but they were also climbing buddies. There is something really, truly spiritual about this place, this ever-changing environment of harshness and beauty. Denali was named after the highest peak in North America ` a peak father and son took great delight in conquering together. To be able to experience that with your own father is something really special which we will remember for the rest of our lives. SEQUOIA: They had an unbelievable bond. And Denali got to share that bond of climbing with Dad in the mountains, you know. It's a... It's a beautiful thing. OMINOUS MUSIC But conquering the world's deadliest mountain, the holy grail of mountaineering, means dealing with steeper, icier slopes and unpredictable weather. I wish they never went, cos I wish they were still alive, but everybody else told them not to go. I didn't even bother, cos I knew 'em better than anybody. They were as stubborn as hell. (CHUCKLES) All I said was, 'Come back. Just come back in one piece.' Denali said, 'Don't worry. Don't worry. I will.' (CHUCKLES) Um... After the break ` what went wrong. And why did two experienced climbers push for the summit when everyone else was turning back? Running your own business can be stressful. That's why ANZ has more business bankers who can help. Find the details of the ANZ business banker closest to you and use their expertise to get the most out of your business. 1 Only on K2 can a perfect day turn into a killer. In this part of the world, death is always a risk. Survival is part of the triumph. Were you worried when they went up K2? Were you worried when they went up K2? No, not at all, because my dad was the best climber I knew. He knew safety; he knew procedures. He knew it better than anybody. So... I trusted him more than anybody in the world on bringing Denali up K2. OMINOUS PIANO MUSIC On the 26th of July, conditions on K2 were far from perfect. Bad weather and the threat of avalanches had forced many climbers to descend. But Marty and Denali decided to push on and scope out Camp 3. He radioed in, and he sounded really really happy. He said... He said... that Denali led the entire way up. Can you imagine that ` a 25-year-old kid leading the entire way? He said he led the entire way and he'd never been more proud of him in his life. The pair told base camp it had a been a hard day. It was very windy; they were cold and would make contact in the morning. AVALANCHE RUMBLES That was the last anyone would hear from Marty and Denali. Chris Warner called me from base camp, and he just dove right in and said, um, 'There's been a... There's been an accident. 'Marty and Den-Denali were buried in an avalanche at Camp 3 and didn't survive.' And... it was like getting shot. Long-time climbing buddy Lance Machovsky was given the grim task of notifying family. I picked up the phone and called Sequoia, Denali's sister and Marty's daughter, and` and told her. Then she dropped the phone and started screaming, and the phone went dead. And I went down the list, and I called... Marty's mom, and she did the same thing. And that's all I could think about for... for 48 hours. It was the screams of all these people that are so in love with these two guys and` and my own loss, and I-I-I... Yeah, I was in shock. Also on that list was Denali's girlfriend, Larissa Minerva. The night it happened, I woke up in the middle of the night and just felt, like, horrible, just, like, deep inside me something was wrong. And I couldn't sleep, and I was just tossing and turning. I was, like, 'What is going on?' Then I fell back asleep eventually and just had all these, like, really beautiful dreams about him in ways that I hadn't before, and I just kinda knew. In the days that followed, a team of sherpas confirmed the worst. A massive avalanche had wiped out the father and son's campsite. Their crampons and an axe were found nearby. All the family members, friends everything has their own little vision of what happened. And to me,... they fell asleep in their tent that night and they died together. I can't think of a more beautiful way to go. DOGS BARK United in grief, Sequoia, Larissa and all those close to Marty and Denali are resigned to the fact that they will never truly understand what happened that night. I think because of the... poeticness of a father and son dying on a mountain like K2 and the questions... that come up about why did they go up and other people came down, I would like people to.. to not besmear them and not turn it into a... a trial of two men who died tragically doing what they loved doing and being together and resting together on the mountain. Above the clouds, it is the lucky and strong that survive. Those that fail are destined to spend an eternity on the mountain. I'm kind of glad I don't have a body. I can just know they are part of the mountain now. Sequoia will always struggle with Denali's death... That's not fair. That's really not fair. He's 25 years old, you know. Had his whole life ahead of him. Whoo! ...but is philosophical about her father's. If he wrote his own ending, that's exactly how it would be ` buried in the mountains, you know, buried in k2. I think K2 will always be like his mistress. (LAUGHS) PEACEFUL MUSIC It's a savage mountain, indeed. Only 280 people have climbed K2 since it was first conquered in 1954. To put that in context, more than 600 people have climbed Everest this year alone. Well, later on ` Fleetwood Mac. # Call it another lonely day. # < So when you guys are looking at each other, to me, it kinda looks like you want to kill each other. Well, we kinda do. # I can still hear you saying # you'd never break, never break the chain. # If you do not love me now. # But next ` the train gangster's wife, Mrs Biggs. When I got there, I was shocked to discover that he had a Brazilian girlfriend who was pregnant. I was in on a prison visit with him when he's telling me, 'I want you to divorce me,' and I was... weeping, so upset. LILTING PIANO MUSIC When inspiration strikes, talk to an ANZ home-loan expert about this great rate ` 4.95% per annum, one year fixed. Talk to us today. Was she a gangster's moll? Or was she simply a loyal, loving wife who was betrayed? Charmian Biggs is the former wife of Great Train Robber Ronald Biggs. She is also a double English major with first class honours. It's 50 years to the month since that $5 million payday for Biggs and his cronies. Tonight ` the story behind the story. OMINOUS MUSIC In a Glasgow bank on the afternoon of August the 7th 1963, a huge pile of bank notes was being counted and bundled, ready for a journey south to London. MUSIC CONTINUES Bruce Reynolds was the mastermind of the train robbery, and Ron had known him from when they were young prisoners together. On board were 40 post office employees and something like $5 million in cash. OMINOUS MUSIC CONTINUES Meanwhile, in a lonely farmhouse in Buckinghamshire, 20 miles from the railway line, a group of 13 men were waiting to put into action a plan that had been years in preparation. They knew that it was going to be a sizeable heist, I suppose. Jack Mills had tried to stop one of the robbers entering the driver's cab. For his troubles, he was overpowered and knocked unconscious with an iron bar. MUSIC BUILDS I met Ron Biggs on a train. I was 18. My father was horrified, simply because I'd associated with this person, so I, um, decided to run away. I really trusted him. I had made him promise me when we were married that he would never, uh, engage in any criminal activity ever again. So I never suspected for a moment that he had... even when it was all on the news and it was huge that the robbery had happened. In 15 minutes the robbers had passed 120 mailbags from hand to hand, down the embankment and into the waiting lorry. I think his share was about �110,000. And I went into shock. I-I... I felt for days that I was a fly on the wall watching it all happening. But the fingerprints at the farmhouse were the fatal flaw in an otherwise carefully prepared plan. There were 20 people involved in the robbery one way and another, some sort of behind the scenes. Five of them were never caught. In April 1964 at Aylesbury Court, Ronald Biggs was given a sentence of 30 years for his part in the Great Train Robbery. A year later, Biggs escaped from Wandsworth Prison and made his way to Australia. I loved him very much, and I didn't want the children to grow up without a father. We came to live in Melbourne, and Ron got work immediately working as a carpenter. I got a job working in a biscuit factory. We didn't have any of the proceeds of the robbery because the people who were minding it produced it when asked to help him to pay for his legal fees and to eventually help him escape, and the rest of it went on... paying for him come to` to have plastic surgery and come to Australia and that just about accounted for all of it. I got a few hundred yards down my street when all hell let loose and police cars came from everywhere, and my car was pulled up and they dragged me out of it, and they were waving guns and goodness knows what. And... I was arrested. Have any comment at all to make, Mrs Biggs? What are you going to do now? What about your children, Mrs Biggs? Where are they at the moment? I was paid $65,000 for the story, but the taxman took $40,000 of it. From thereon in, I set about getting a job and making it here on my own, only the turn of events was such that things changed drastically. I'd arranged to go away down to the beach. I took a` I rented a house. And a car came speeding through and clipped my car and turned it over twice in the air. Nicky was right where the car struck us on the passenger side, and he was badly injured. And the ambulance took quite a while to get there, and even when it came, and even though we had a police escort, it was involved in a collision on the way to the hospital, and Nicky was dead on arrival. So that changed everything again. It wasn't made easier by the amount of hate that came from so many areas, right out of left field. Hate letters, so many of them ` people who wrote after the death of Nicky, saying they were pleased that she had been punished by having a son killed. ARCHIVE: Ronald Biggs had been living a remarkably quiet and settled life in this noisy, bustling, tourist-crammed city. He was transferred to the foreigners prison, and a Sydney newspaper arranged for me to fly to see him. When I got there, I was shocked to discover that he had a Brazilian girlfriend who was pregnant. I was in on a prison visit with him when he's telling me, 'I want you to divorce me.' And I was... weeping, so upset. All of a sudden, the doors of the room where we were were flung open, and in came about 20 or 30 press with cameras and the whole bit. < MAN: And what about the stories that one of the reasons you might stay here < is because of your relationship with this girl, Raimunda? I mean, are they true? Well, the fact is that she has lived with me for more than a year. I have a great amount of affection for Raimunda, but there is` nobody would ever replace Charmian. And my children will always be part of my life and so will Charmian. < I was hoping to ask you if I may... There we were in one of the most private moments of your personal life that you could possibly have with a whole audience. I can understand why he did it. He did it with the very best motives. As it happened, because he was to be the father of a Brazilian child, he couldn't be extradited. Eventually, the Brazilian girl had a little boy called Michael. My life, the way it's gone, I'm not disappointed with it. I'm not unhappy about it, the things that have happened since the train robbery. There's been some unhappy times, but there's also been happy times. So I became... fairly disillusioned at that stage in the game and came back to Australia, determined to make a go of it on my own. I hated being known just as Ronald Biggs' wife. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. They're nice. Thank you! Charmian is anything but a gangster's moll who has no education and no background. And that's where I first met her ` in an honours English tutorial ` and her insight into literature was quite` quite well recognised and quite well acknowledged. At the end of her university studies, she had a double English major with first class honours. In 1997, I went back to England to see my mother. I'd spoken to Ron on the phone, and, uh, he suggested that I go home to Australia via Rio. I was quite shocked when, not too long after that, his son rang me and told me that he'd had a stroke. He couldn't speak, he couldn't swallow, so he couldn't eat. After 13,068 days on the run, Ronnie Biggs was finally home. He sent me a card in 2005 with words on it, saying, 'This is just to break the ice, Charm.' I wrote him a letter back, saying, 'This isn't ice. This is a glacier we're talking about.' (LAUGHS) She didn't ever stop caring about him and forgave him for an enormous amount of what I would regard as real grief that he subjected her to, directly and indirectly. I suppose I felt very sorry for him for what had happened to him ` the fact he couldn't speak and that he was very ill. It was no skin off my nose to be civil. As a family, we're absolutely delighted. Um, common sense has prevailed. My father has fortunately been released on compassionate grounds. He was released on compassionate grounds four years ago just before his 80th birthday because he looked as if he was about to die, but he managed to hang on, and he's still hanging on now at coming up 84. I've learned to get over Ron a long time ago. I don't, sort of, feel that it's a burden any more. Amazing old footage in that, wasn't it? Charmian and Ronald's two successful sons have had little contact with their father. Well, when we come back ` Fleetwood Mac. # Thunder only happens when it's raining. What is it with you guys? You seem to be getting more popular. What is it with you guys? You seem to be getting more popular. I know. # ...when they're playing. # INQUISITIVE MUSIC INQUISITIVE MUSIC CONTINUES MUSIC SLOWS MUSIC QUICKENS When inspiration strikes, talk to an ANZ home-loan specialist. We have more local experts in more places to help bring your thinking to life. Hello again. The legendary rock icons Fleetwood Mac wrote the manual on sex, drugs and rock and roll. They lived, they loved, they feuded, they snorted, but they never stopped creating great music. Now they've decided to tell the whole truth about what went on. FLEETWOOD MAC'S 'THE CHAIN' MUSIC CONTINUES 1 1 1 All right, here we go. It's show time, guys. Let's do it. Let's do it. AUDIENCE CHEERS AUDIENCE CONTINUES CHEERING How does it feel when you walk out on to a stage and everybody is going nuts and stamping the ground and you're walking out hand in hand with Lindsay? I feel like I did when I first met him and started to sing with him, because I knew... I knew that Lindsay and Stevie were going places. This party starts... now! Fleetwood Mac's celebrated rock and roll story of love, hate and hit records has come full circle. It is, in many ways, one of the greatest love stories ever told. It's like one of those great romances of the century. We're all ex-lovers, so it's not just cut and dry. It's a relationship that spans centuries and has come out on top. For more than 30 years, Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham played together but hardly spoke. We both tried to kill each other. Now they're back. # ...the silence. # Damn the dark, damn the light. # It reminds me of the '70s. It reminds me of the early days when we first started. Good morning. Welcome to California. Backstage at a stadium in Sacramento, Fleetwood Mac arrives in a fleet of black SUVs. How are you? How are you? Very well, thank you. Tonight's a sell-out, like the 45 other concerts on the tour so far. What is it with you guys? You seem to be getting more popular. I know. I know. (LAUGHS) I joke about it, and it is only a joke. Like, do they know. Maybe we are all going to start dying or something. # ...believe in the ways of magic, # but I'm beginning to wonder why. # It's 46 years since Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham met in high school. Do you remember what made you fall in love with Lindsay? What were the characteristics? Really, it just happened. And I guess I just, you know` I just really appreciated his amazing talent and, of course, not to mention, he was drop-dead gorgeous. Stevie dropped out of college in 1968 and, with Lindsay, went to Los Angeles to pursue a career in music. They struggled to make ends meet, worked odd jobs. When Lindsay went to play in another band, Stevie thought about leaving him. The time apart inspired one of her most famous songs. # I took my love, and I took it down. When I took my love, I took it down, like, off the mantle to really study what was going on and what had happened between him and me since 1966 when we met. # ...in the snow-covered hills # till the landslide... # I decided that I would not break up the relationship with Lindsay. And the rest is history. And the rest is history. The rest is history and to be continued. In 1974, Stevie and Lindsay were recording at Sound City in LA. Mick Fleetwood also happened to be there. Purely by accident. When he heard Lindsay play, he offered him a job. Lindsay said, 'She's coming too, so either` either you take both of us or I... or I can't join your band. # Would you stay if she promised you heaven? Will you ever win? # Their first album together was a hit. Their second, Rumours ` a worldwide blockbuster. # Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. # Don't stop. It'll soon be here. # It'll be here better than before. # Yesterday's gone. Yesterday's gone. # It made the band, but making Rumours also broke every relationship in the band. # Loving you isn't the right thing to do. # Mick split from his wife, Jenny. John and Christine McVie also broke up. And then Stevie and Lindsay called it quits. # Shatter your illusions of love. And now tell me, is it over now? # Do you know how # to pick up the pieces and go on? # < How difficult was the break-up for you? Well, it wasn't very difficult for me, because I wanted it to be over. # You can go your own way. # Go your own way. # You can call it another lonely day. # < So, when you guys were looking at each other, to me, it kind of looks like you want to kill each other. Well, we kind of do. # I can still hear you saying # you'd never break, never break the chain. # If you do not love me now. # If you do not love me now. # You don't love me now. # You will never, never love me again. # You will never, never love me again. # I can still hear you saying... The songs were weapons in the war against each other. # ...chain. # < So, when we see you, kind of, bellowing at each other with what looks like hatred, that was real? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, the people who are here are pointing fingers at us. Oh, we are not, Lindsay. Why are you saying that? Jesus Christ, I was just trying to say it's nobody's fault, and Karen is telling me that your lawyer's only got involved today. The implication of which is that my people <BLEEP> up. > Karen can drop dead, honestly. You know that. Karen can drop dead, honestly. What was it like backstage? What was it like backstage? Separate dressing rooms. Separate cars. < How do you do that? You sit on one end of the plane; he sits on the other end of the plane. < For how many years was it like that? < For how many years was it like that? Forever. < Since 1976? < Since 1976? Pretty much. # Wake up in the morning. # Did the cocaine enhance the experience or make it worse? It enhanced until it didn't enhance. Nobody really knew how much anybody was doing. Every once in a while some crazy person would come out with a bag of coke into the studio and put it down there, and` and we would all, like, be frightened, because we could really see our demise right there on the table. Is it true that you actually damaged your nose from all the cocaine that you did? The fact is I do have a hole in my nose. and it changed my voice a little bit, and I would never have admitted that, but it did. # Tell me lies. Tell me sweet, little lies. # Tell me lies. # Tell me lies. # Tell me, tell me lies. # I want to ask you about Mick ` your relationship with Mick. Would that ever have happened if there weren't so many drugs involved? Probably not. We just had a party one night in a big suite, you know, and, uh, everybody was very drunk, and at the end of it, everybody left, except me and Mick were just sitting in two big chairs, you know, and discussing life, philosophising on the world and, um,... that was that. And by the next morning, I was absolutely sure that this was the great love of my life. # Hold me, hold me, hold me-e. # We don't have the blessings of some of these bands, usually guys, that agree that they don't like each other, and they go out and they play great music and they make a great living and have a, you know` have a career. We can't do that, you know, because we're all ex-lovers, so it's not just cut and dry. How uncomfortable did it all get when Lindsay found out that you were seeing Mick? It was very uncomfortable, but then it was very very uncomfortable about two months later when Mick started seeing my best friend, Sarah. Wow, it did get incestuous. Yes, it did. I hardly spoke to Lindsay and wasn't speaking to Mick at all, and I lost my best friend, so that was a very bad... The recording of Tusk, for me, was very bad` was a very bad year. When we come back, Rhani Sadler has a bit of slap and tickle with Mick. (SLAPS 'TUSK' RHYTHM) I've got my brown underpants on. I've got my brown underpants on. (LAUGHS) We are doing the best business we've done since the mid '80s, and go figure. There you go. Slap and tickle, they call it. LILTING PIANO MUSIC When inspiration strikes, talk to an ANZ home-loan expert about this great rate ` 4.95% per annum, one year fixed. Talk to us today. We're back with the Mac. With Fleetwood Mac, it was all break-ups and reunions ` a bit like a dodgy marriage ` but somehow the music kept coming. How does the drums go in Tusk? How does the drums go in Tusk? It's like... (SLAPS 'TUSK' RHYTHM) FLEETWOOD MAC'S 'TUSK' There you go. Slap and tickle, they call it. During the '80s and '90s, Fleetwood Mac had a succession of break-ups and reunions. Christine McVie got tired of touring and quit for good in 1997. But the rest of the band kept going. Is it fair to say that the band is all getting along better now than it has in years? Yeah, it really is. People think that we don't like each other. It's not true. We actually love each other, and there's a whole load of... I mean, these two people walking out on that stage, Stevie and Lindsay, they` they were partners when they were 16 years old. < Yeah. When you met them they were very much in love, weren't they? < Yeah. When you met them they were very much in love, weren't they? Oh, yeah, of course. Lindsay got married in 2000 and has three children. Stevie is happily single. She travels with two four-legged companions. Lindsay said if it wasn't for Fleetwood Mac, you guys might never have broken up. It's possible... that we might have stayed together. < Gotten married? < Gotten married? Very possible. < Had kids? < Had kids? Had kids. But, you know, destiny intervenes. < Do you ever wished that's what happened? No, because I never go against destiny. # Oh, thunder only happens when it's raining. < I want to ask you about, um, your mum. < I know she was very very special to you, and I know that she passed just... Yeah, not long ago. # ...come and they will go. Without her, would you have been able to do what you're doing now? Without her, would you have been able to do what you're doing now? No. # When the rain washes you clean, you'll know. I am alone in this world without her. # You'll know. # Do I miss having a boyfriend or a man in my life? No. Do I miss having my mother? I miss her so much that it makes me nauseous, because there's nobody that can fill that void, there is nobody that can take her place, and there is nobody that can pull me back into` into sanity like she was able to do, and, um... and so what I tell everybody is don't ever for a minute take your mother for granted, because she could be gone tomorrow. She left a lot of stuff ` a lot of scrapbooks and writings and a suitcase that I have yet to open, and it's been almost two years, I guess. Um,... I'm just not ready. < Maybe all the answers or some of the answers are in there. A lot of the answers, I'm sure, are in there. # Rhiannon rings like a bell through the night, # and wouldn't you love to love her? # She rules her life like a bird in flight, # and who will be her lover? # All your life, you've never seen a woman # taken by the sky. # Would you stay if she promised to you heaven? # Would you even try? # The loss put a lot of things in perspective, especially her relationship with Lindsay. Stevie decided that after 36 years, it was time to make peace. My mom always said to me too, you know, 'It's really easy to say I'm sorry. 'Just walk up to somebody and say, "I am really sorry, honestly. I'm really sorry," 'and that's it. That's all you have to say.' And that's just something that we didn't say very much. Both of you needed to apologise to each other, and now you have. Mm-hm. < And it's changed everything? < And it's changed everything? It's changed everything and so for the better. What was his response? His response was good. His response was more or less, 'I wish you'd told me all this a long time ago.' And so then you're like, 'Well, you know, I didn't take the time to sit down and explain to you why I wasn't happy because I thought you knew, and you didn't.' < Do you wish you had had that chat`? < Do you wish you had had that chat`? Yeah, I do. I certainly do. It would have certainly made the last 30 years easier. It's sure` sure a lot more fun this way. 'DREAMS' PLAYS Apart from the odd break-up feud and fight, Fleetwood Mac has been together now for nearly four generations, and now there's a whole new generation tuning in. We are doing the best business we've done since the mid '80s. It just seems like it stood the test of time, and more and more people seem to be realising that. < Yeah, the rebirth of cool. < Yeah, the rebirth of cool. Absolutely. # ...clean, you'll know. Sometimes I see the boy I first met when he was 17, and I haven't seen him since we first joined Fleetwood Mac. AUDIENCE CHEERS 23 songs and two encores later, the American tour is over. Australia is soon. We'll be fresh as daisies by the time we get to you. AUDIENCE CHEERS Imagine hating each other and working together that closely for so long. Thank goodness they made up. As they said, they're off to Australia soon and NZ in December. And that is it for us tonight. Check us out on Facebook. Thanks for joining us. Do have a great week. Nga mihi nui, hei kona.