They say crime doesn't pay, but boy, it costs a lot of money ` your money. READS: Love from your bestest girl. Dad's in jail. I am now sole carer for three kids. And you and I are paying. We really enjoy popping people away for a very long time. Why so many people in jail? There are some pople who are so evil; so bad that you don't have an option. I love you too. Flirtatious and fancy free at 57. I am not completely nude. I am wearing high heels. From a fling with Bryan Ferry... What can you do? To babies with Jagger. A constant liar ` really good liar. Jerry's life in the spotlight. Jerry's life in the spotlight. (CHUCKLES) Kia ora, I'm Miriama Kamo. Our crime rate is falling, but we're locking up more people and building more prisons. Imagine locking up the whole of Oamaru ` more than 10,000 people. But do prisons work? Or are they simply universities of crime? Are there better answers when we are spending so much money? $1.2B every year on our prisons. Here's John Hudson. You go through, like, a grieving process, like someone's died. Reads: 'To Dad, when you come home, can we...' What's something cool you want him to do? Kaysei's children see their dad for just two hours once a week. READS: love from your bestest girl. That's because he's in prison. He done a crime and... doing the time. And she's doing time as well. I'm now sole carer for three kids. Um, I bring all the money in. It's hard out. DRAMATIC MUSIC Crime and punishment create victims ` those who are assaulted, robbed and murdered and their families, and the families like Kaysei and her children when their dad goes prison. So by decreasing crime and imprisonment, you decrease victimisation, but in the past couple of decades, something strange has been happening in NZ. The crime rate has been falling, but the imprisonment rate has kept on rising. And it's a vicious cycle. The children of prisoners ` and there are more than 20,000 of them ` are seven times more likely to eventually end up in jail themselves. Hello, Dad. Hello, Dad. My kids have good support,... Hello, Dad. My kids have good support,... I love you too. ...and they know that if you're being naughty, the police will take you to jail, that's pretty much how they look at it. But do you worry that your children might think that jail is normal? Um... Well, it's normal for their dad. These guys could be in prison two or three times a year for two or three months. Kim Workman, a former policeman who once headed our prison service says we should rethink crime and punishment. We need to understand that prisoners come back and live beside us and how we respond to those prisoners when they return into society will determine how they behave in the future. Surely locking up criminals for a very long time keeps the rest of us safe? The problem with it is that it doesn't keep you safe. You really defer the problem. People who are locked up for a long time are more likely to reoffend when they leave. So prisons can become a cause of crime. So who ends up in prison in NZ? Well most of them are young men who have no qualifications when they leave school. 50% are unemployed when they're thrown in the slammer. 80% have problems with drugs and alcohol and 70% will reoffend within two years. I think, um, my partner might come home with all these millions of ideas that he never had ` um, criminal ideas. They come out to the real world` real world and it's just... The university of crime? The university of crime? Yeah. All right, son. Kaysie's mother-in-law, Catherine, knows what gets her son into trouble. Everything he has been involved with the police has been around alcohol. Yeah, it's the alcohol that is the killer for him. Do you think he will reoffend? Do you think he will reoffend? Um, I'm not going to give him the time to reoffend. We're there to support him all the way. Yeah. And drinking isn't part of that? And drinking isn't part of that? Drinking's not part of that. No way! We've had this steadily declining crime rate, you know, since the 1990s. And for most of the public, they find it difficult to accept. Why do you think there's a difference between the reality and public perception? One is the media, um, response to crime and, you know, there's that saying, 'If it bleeds it leads.' The other is the impact of, uh, victim's rights and the Sensible Sentencing Trust, which has provided the public with a` a view that there's a lot of crime there and people are essentially unsafe. Well, that's what Kim Workman and our opponents will obviously say, but no, i don't believe so at all. And if Kim Workman and the people who oppose us had never ever heard the word 'victim' or never used the word victim at all until we came along. CROWD CHANTS: We are sick of all this crime. We are sick of all the crime. 11 years ago Sensible Sentencing Trust had politicians joining them in a march on parliament in support of victims of crime,... We set out to make law and order the number one issue... ..but even then, the official crime rate had been falling for a decade. Politicians who worked out about 20 years ago that there was votes in` in crime, and if you could say you were going to get tough on crime, you were likely to get more votes. And sure enough, tougher sentencing laws soon followed. The Sentencing Act, the Parole Act, um, and` and so on, where the length of sentences over that period increased by around 50%. Can you hear me OK? Can you hear me OK? ALL: Yes. But Garth McVicar says that the public's being deceived. ...to destroy the country that I love. The crime rate has been manipulated, absolutely. We've, um,` we've brought in family group conferences, we've brought in alternative actions, we brought in diversion. We brought in all sorts of options, rather than sending someone to prison. If you bring in all of those statistics, then you'll find the crime rate actually hasn't fallen. And even if you've just got a small band of violent crime on its own, you'll see it hasn't fallen. Well, murders are down. Just 39 last year. Well, murders are down. Just 39 last year. Absolutely fantastic. Absolutely, from 164 down to, yeah, what they are. Absolutely fantastic. And violent crime as well. And violent crime as well. Starting to. Fantastic. All sorts of other crime is falling. But, Garth, wasn't crime already falling when Sensible Sentencing came along in 2002? No. These people who are criticising us are experts at manipulating and twisting the figures. But that's what Kim Workman says about you, Garth? They've been around longer than me. They've been around 30 to 40 years and they were around when the crime rate were rising. 30 years ago the crime rate was rising worldwide, but in the early 1990s, it started to fall. < Why is that? The young people aged between 15 and 23 are the ones that commit the most crime, and that proportion of the population is declining. TENSE MUSIC Now in most Western countries the crime rate is continuing to fall, but NZ is left with one of the highest imprisonment rates in the developed world. We really enjoy popping people away for a long time. We're an outlier? We're an outlier? We are, yes. Do you think that we should be locking people up forever? Life means life? Well, ultimately there are some people who are so evil, so bad that you don't have an option. Even at $94,000 a year to keep that inmate locked up, it's a good investment. But prisons are costing us more than a billion dollars a year. I think what we've got to look at is why that` those prison numbers have stayed the same. Why can't they come down? After the break, does Norway have the answer? We should be teaching them consequences, not building prisons that are like holiday camps. In Norway's prisons, inmates are treated with respect,... ...prisoners have their own cell and a key to it. The prison guards are encouraged to relax with the inmates... and it works. Norway has a crime rate similar to NZ's, but an imprisonment rate less than a third of ours. We showed the Norway prison to Garth McVicar. If NZ goes down that path, I can see a lot more people volunteering to go to prison. We know now who the offenders are. We identify them at their first crime, whether it's graffiti, car conversion, kicking a letterbox. That's where we should be teaching them consequences, not building prisons that are like holiday camps. But Norway has a third of the imprisonment rate that we have and roughly the same crime rate. Look, it's going to be tried. I believe it will be a failure. When we see someone offend, our first response is, 'How should we punish this person?' 'What should the punishment be?' Their response is, 'Where did we go wrong with this family or this person?' So it's a different mindset. All right, so grab yourself your specimen and we'll do our normal plant ID stuff with that. And the mindset in NZ is changing. So we write that with capital letters and single inverted comas around... The push is on to improve prisoner education. When I first come here, I did a literacy and numeracy test, and I scored a level one, and I did one a couple of weeks ago, and now it's a level five. At 22, she's finally learning to read. So, you're` you're cramming in what you missed out at school on the outside? Yep. Yep. When did you leave school? Yep. When did you leave school? When I was 16. Did you have any qualifications? Nope. If we can get them off the drugs and alcohol, get them some qualifications, get them some skills, then we've got a better chance of them not turning back up in prison again. But you don't need to remove all the soil from the roots. Anne Tolley's goal ` a 25% cut in reoffending by 2017. But some are calling for even bolder steps from the government. What is probably needed is another... objective to reduce imprisonment, uh, rate by 25%. And that will only put us on a level with the UK. It's not a huge shift. You'd think the two would go hand in hand? You would, uh, but they haven't, and they need to. Why don't you make one of your goals to reduce the imprisonment rate? What we've seen is that the imprisonment rate has steadied, but there are a lot of crimes that people commit. The public want us to keep them safe and so there are some people that end up in prison. And, uh, grab me one of those roast chickens. And, uh, grab me one of those roast chickens. Roast chicken heated up. And those who do end up in prison will be working, getting job skills in places like this canteen. It's inside the construction zone at the new men's prison in South Auckland. A couple of years ago Bill English said that prisons are a moral and fiscal failure. Yeah. Yeah. So why are we building a huge new privately run prison? We needed another prison in South Auckland where a lot of the prisoners came from. But more importantly, they have to do 10% better than the rehabilitation rates for the public service. But there's a problem. The real issue is stigmatisation. You can't get jobs because you've got a criminal conviction. So society's saying we don't want you back in prison, but there's no work out there. We need a switch, really, in` in the business culture. One of the leaders is, uh, Sir Stephen Tindall. He said, 'I'll employ an ex-prisoner for every Warehouse in NZ. If we can get a prison into work on their release, their chances of coming back into prison, um, are` are reduced by three quarters. So, yep, we're focused on that, but not at the expense of the ordinary, average, hard-working NZer. Garth is all for prisoners working, but those who refuse, he says, should be put in chain gangs. I love it. Love what we saw in Arizona. Love what the sheriff did. Everybody that leaves his prison has got work skills. They don't recycle inmates like we do in this country. We know now, um, that we have issues around high imprisonment. It would be, I think, stupid not to start working on those issues now, because in 30 or 40 years time, we'll look back and say, 'How did we let that happen?' Yeah! Over there! Kaysie has another eight months to wait before the father of her children is released. And does Dad swim too? Just can't wait to have him home. Someone to laugh with and deal with the stresses of life together. Yeah, I'm scared, though. I'm nervous. Uh, I don't know what the Department of Corrections have created. Come on then! Hold hands! So you're absolutely determined to hold your family together? So you're absolutely determined to hold your family together? Yeah, I am, yeah,... whether he likes it or not. So is the money worth it? $1.2B. We'd love to know what you think. Sunday TVNZ on Facebook. All right, next Jerry Hall's back on the market. (SIGHS) You mentioned you're dating. You mentioned you're dating. I'm available. You mentioned you're dating. I'm available. Oh, hey, look out! Younger or older men? Um, well... Welcome back. She's an American beauty with a story to tell. From a humble upbringing in Texas to the cover of Vogue, swept off her feet by Bryan Ferry in her teens, and then she went on to marry and have babies with Mick Jagger. Alex Cullen with Jerry Hall. JAZZY MUSIC At 57, Jerry Hall is a striking woman. JAZZY MUSIC CONTINUES She's tall ` 183cm ` a working mum who's still modelling and acting wherever the work takes her. This week, it's Melbourne. She's here to star in the stage version of the classic movie The Graduate. I'm loving Melbourne. I'm loving Melbourne. Melbourne's gonna love it. I'm loving Melbourne. Melbourne's gonna love it. Great town. After you, Mrs Robinson. After you, Mrs Robinson. Thank you. After you, Mrs Robinson. Thank you. (CHUCKLES) FERGIE'S 'A LITTLE PARTY NEVER KILLED NOBODY' Now we're cookin'. Now we're cookin'. Yeah. # A little party never killed nobody, so we're gonna dance until we drop, drop, drop. # But last week, we were on the Med, and Jerry was right where she likes to be ` in the driver's seat. Have you got your Speedos on? LAUGHS: No, I do not have my Speedos on. # Don't tell me when... # If you want to be discovered, this is the place, where some of the hottest celebrities come to bask in the Mediterranean sun. 40 years ago, a blonde 6ft-tall Texan strutted along this beach. Her career was about to begin. After I graduated from high school, I went to Paris with a backpack and sleeping bag, you know, just to travel around, and I got discovered there... (LAUGHS) on the beach in St Tropez. Within 30 minutes, a man came up to me and said, 'Do want to be a model?' and I said yes, and he became my agent. BRIAN FERRY'S 'LET'S STICK TOGETHER' Jerry hitched the ride of her life with the rich and famous. In 1975, while modelling for a Bryan Ferry Roxy Music album cover, one thing led to another. # But now you never miss your water till your well runs dry... He is so talented and handsome. I sort of took one look at him, and that was it. # C'mon. # # C'mon. # Ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow! And I performed on stage a few times, and I did the hootin' and hollerin', which is great fun. 'LET'S STICK TOGETHER' CONTINUES It was a wild ride until... it wasn't. We both were working so much apart that it was difficult and then you know, met Mick. # Tell me, baby, what's my name? # What's my name? # Won't you tell me, baby, what's my name? # He was just dazzling. (LAUGHS) Now, I knew him for, like, a year before I went out with him. Now, I knew him for, like, a year before I went out with him. Right. Oh, I see. Yes, yes. Yeah. Cos I thought he was probably not a good idea. (LAUGHS) But, um, you know, my resistance wore down. He was tenacious. THE ROLLING STONES' 'PAINT IT BLACK' Just got to take a reality check here too. You were 21 ` you've got Bryan Ferry and Mick Jagger after you. Pretty lucky. Pretty lucky. Hello? Pretty lucky. Hello? LAUGHS: I know. Mick Jagger? Oh, I was smitten. THE ROLLING STONES' 'HONKY TONK WOMEN' PLAYS # It's the honky-tonk, honky-tonk women. # What made him so alluring? > What made him so alluring? > He's very intelligent, and he has a lot of charisma. Very charming, um, and he's quite funny. He made me laugh a lot. He's very funny. THE ROLLING STONES' 'MISS YOU' We were married and had four children and together 23 years. Yeah, we got on really well, actually. We never fought. We still get on really well. We love having a chat and a giggle. Here we are. There's Daddy and Gabriel. Was he a good dad? Was he a good dad? A very good dad. Or is he a good dad? Or is he a good dad? He is a very good dad. He's very involved. He's very supportive and very encouraging. Just keep one on and one off. Just keep one on and one off. Mm-hm. You know, my children grew up on Rolling Stone tours. They've been all over the world. ALL: # Ooh, ooh, ooh. # Ooh, ooh, ooh. # And everywhere we go, you know, Mick has made sure that they went to see the best museums, the best architecture. You know, they've seen so much, um, at a very young age. 'START ME UP' PLAYS, CROWD CHEERS There was always a shadow over your time with Mick ` his infidelities. Um, yeah, that was` that was quite difficult. Um... Um... When did you know he was cheating on you? Um, well, I would often read about it in the newspaper. (LAUGHS) That's quite difficult. # Because I used to love her, but it's all over now. # And he had a baby with someone else, so that was really the end. Was he a good liar? Was he a good liar? A constant liar, a really good liar. I suppose` I suppose` But, you know, it's water under the bridge now. Yeah. Yeah. Peace is reigning. Good. Good. I know. It's very nice. SIMON & GARFUNKEL'S 'MRS ROBINSON' This American beauty spends some of the year in one of the most beautiful towns on the French Riviera. READS: I don't know what's wrong with me. READS: I don't know what's wrong with me. It's forgotten. 'In her backyard, she's recruited a battling actor to rehearse some lines from The Graduate.' I'm just all mixed up. I'm just all mixed up. All right, calm down. 'Jerry plays the older woman, a role made famous by Anne Bancroft in the 1967 movie with Dustin Hoffman.' Here we are. You got me into your house, you give me a drink, you put on music, now you start opening up your personal life to me and tell me your husband won't be home for hours. So? Mrs Robinson, you're trying to seduce me. Mrs Robinson, you're trying to seduce me. (LAUGHS SULTRILY) Aren't you? Aren't you? Well, no, I haven't thought of it. But I'm very flattered, Benjamin. I can't think of a better person to play Mrs Robinson. I can't think of a better person to play Mrs Robinson. Oh, thank you. (LAUGHS) She's either confrontational or seductive. You know, that's the, sort of, two things she does. She's a cougar. Will you unzip my dress? Un your what? (LAUGHS THROATILY) Oh God! Oh, let me out. Don't be nervous. So, I'll be ready for my nude scene. So, I'll be ready for my nude scene. Are you OK with that? Is it ever...? No, when I first did it, the first time in the West End, it was like walking through fire. It was terrifying, the idea of being nude on stage. But having done it for, you know, over a year, um, it became one of my favourite parts, because the audience is so shocked. Um, and I'm not completely nude; I'm wearing high heels. It's paradise here. It's paradise here. Absolute paradise. It's paradise here. Absolute paradise. (SIGHS CONTENTEDLY) You mentioned you're dating. I'm available. I'm available. Oh, hey, look out. I'm available. Oh, hey, look out. (LAUGHS) Younger or older men? Younger or older men? Um, well, I like 'em all. BOTH LAUGH BOTH LAUGH I'm not picky. (LAUGHS) No, as long as they're fun. And that is our show for tonight. Do check us out on Facebook ` Sunday TVNZ. Have a great week, and thanks for joining us tonight. Nga mihi nui, hei kona.