NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. Copyright Able 2014 NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. TODAY, THE KINGMAKERS AND COALITION PARTNERS WHO WILL SHAPE THE NEXT GOVERNMENT. SEVEN MINOR PARTY LEADERS DEBATE AS THE CONTEST FOR YOUR VOTE HEATS UP. WE ARE NOT DEALING WITH ANY GOVERNMENT OR ANY PARTY THATS OUT TO SELL THIS COUNTRY'S INTERESTS DOWN THE DRAIN. LET'S FOCUS ON BEATING OUR COMMON ENEMY, NATIONAL. OUR MAJOR ROLE IS TO WORK WITH THE MAJOR PARTY, WHICHEVER ONE HAS THE- I SUPPOSE, THE BIGGEST MAJORITY. A FAIRER SOCIETY, A CLEANER ENVIRONMENT, A SMARTER ECONOMY - THOSE ARE THE ISSUES WE TALK ABOUT. MY REAL GOAL, AFTER WE GET RE-ELECTED TO PARLIAMENT, IS TO REBUILD THE ACT PARTY. UNITED FUTURE HAS GIVEN NATIONAL THAT CRITICAL VOTE FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS. I THINK THAT THE PARTNERSHIP HAS BEEN A GOOD ONE. IT'S SIMPLY ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT REFERENDUM COUNT IN THIS COUNTRY. THAT'S OUR BOTTOM LINE. SO WHAT DEALS ARE IN THE OFFING THIS TIME, AND WHATARE THOSE BOTTOM LINES? WE'LL DEBATE FOREIGN OWNERSHIP, FIXING THE HOUSING CRISIS, TACKLING CRIME AND WHAT THIS WEEK'S DROP IN UNEMPLOYMENT MEANS. AND LATER, PAUL EGO AND JEREMY CORBETPS SATIRICAL LOOK AT THE CAMPAIGN. AND OUR PANEL, BRICE EDWARDS AND BROOK SABIN. THANKS FOR JOINING US. LOTS OF YOU HAVE ALREADY TOLD US WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT TODAY'S DEBATE BEFORE WE CAME TO AIR. BUT WE'RE KEEN TO HEAR MORE, SO TEXT 3330 FOR 50C OR WE'RE ON EMAILAT THENATION.TV3.CO.NZ AND TWITTER AND FACEBOOK @THENATION. AS YOU MAY BE AWARE, THIS IS THE DEBATE THAT ALMOST WASN'T AFTER CONSERVATIVE LEADER COLIN CRAIG GOT AN 11TH HOUR COURT ORDER PROHIBITING US PROCEEDING WITHOUT HIM. SO AFTERA FRANKLY HEROIC EFFORT BY OUR CREW LAST NIGHT, HE'S WITH US. THE JUDGE RULED THAT HIS PROSPECTS OF BEING ELECTED WOULD BE DIMINISHED IF HE DID NOT APPEAR. SO GIVEN WE'RE SUCH HOT PROPERTY, LET'S CRACK INTO IT, AND I'D LIKE TO WELCOME ALL MY GUESTS. TODAY MR CRAIG, ACTS JAMIE WHYTE, HONE HARAWIRA FROM MANA, GREENS CO-LEADER METIRIA TUREI, WINSTON PETERS FROM NZ FIRST, THE MAORI PARTY'S TE URUROA FLAVELL AND UNITED FUTURES PETER DUNNE. IF I CAN COME TO YOU FIRST, METIRIA TUREI, JOHN KEY SAYS ONLY 1% TO 2% OF OUR FARMLAND HAS BEEN SOLD IN THE LAST NINE YEARS. THAT'S NOT MUCH, IS IT? IT'S NOTA PROBLEM. I THINK THAT NUMBER IS DISPUTED, BUT THE GREEN PARTY HAS LED ON THIS ISSUE NOW FOR WELL OVER A DECADE. WE SHOULD NOT BE SELLING OFF OUR LAND INTO FOREIGN OWNERSHIP. WE HAVE HADA BILL IN PARLIAMENT TO RESTRICT LAND SALES TO JUST TO NZ RESIDENTS AND TO- NZ CITIZENS AND PERMANENT RESIDENTS. AND IF THAT BILL HAD BEEN PASSED IN 2012, THE LOCHINVER STATION WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SOLD. SO NATIONAL HAS DELIBERATELY ALLOWED NZ LAND TO BE SOLD INTO FOREIGN OWNERSHIP, WHICH IS NOT GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY. MR PETERS, YOU WOULD LIKE TO BAN FOREIGN BUYERS FROM TAKING NZ LAND AND HOUSES. DO YOU MEAN ALL LAND, ALL PROPERTY? FIRST OF ALL, WHEN IT COMES TO FARMLAND, WE'RE NOT MAKING ANY MORE OF IT, OR LAND ITSELF, AND THIS IDEA THAT SOMEHOW WE ADVANTAGE OUR ECONOMY BY SELLING OFF FARMLAND TO FOREIGNERS AND HOUSING TO OFFSHORE FOREIGN INTERESTS IS JUST SILLY; IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. NOW, ON THE QUESTION OF HOW MUCH HAS BEEN SOLD, MR KEY DOESN'T KNOW, BECAUSE HE REFUSES AND THE GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO KEEP A REGISTER AS THEY DO OFFSHORE IN OTHER COUNTRIES OF HOME OWNERSHIP AND HOUSE OWNERSHIP. NOW, IT'S ONE MILLION HECTARES SINCE HE'S BEEN THE PRIME MINISTER. THAT'S SIX TIMES THE SIZE OF STEWART ISLAND. IT IS NOT A SMALL MATTER, AND I WELCOME THE DEBATE, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO MAKE A STAND ON THIS MATTER, AND NZ FIRST INTENDS TO. MR WHYTE, WHATS WRONG WITH RESTRICTIONS ON FOREIGNERS BUYING OUR PRODUCTIVE LAND? BRITAIN HAS IT, ARGENTINA, CHINA, THE STATES AND CANADA. IT'S NOT OUR PRODUCTIVE LAND. IT'S PRIVATELY OWNED LAND. THE LOCHINVER STATION IS THE PRIVATE PROPERTY OF THE STEVENSON FAMILY, AND IT'S NOT FOR THE GOVERNMENT, IT'S NOT FOR POLITICIANS, TO TELL THEM WHO THEY CAN AND CAN'T SELL THEIR LAND TO. THE ACT PARTY BELIEVES IN PRIVATE PROPERTY AND LIBERTY. AND I'M ASTONISHED, FRANKLY, BY THE COMMUNISTIC FORM OF THINKING OF MY OPPONENTS, WHO SEEM TO BELIEVE THAT LAND IS COLLECTIVELY OWNED IN NZ. MR FLAVELL, COMMUNISTIC IS WHAT YOU'RE BEING TOLD YOU ARE. THE MAORI PARTY OPPOSES FOREIGN LAND OWNERSHIP SALES TOO. BUT YOU'RE AT THE TABLE, SO HAVE YOU GOT THE POWER TO INFLUENCE NATIONAL ON THIS POLICY, TO GET THEM TO CHANGE? WELL, THAT DEPENDS ON WHETHER WE'RE GOING TO GETASKED AFTER THE NEXT ELECTION, BUT OUR ROLE IN THE PAST HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO ADVANCE BILLS AND LEGISLATION THAT WE BELIEVE IN. SOMETIMES WE WON SOME OF THOSE; SOMETIMES WE HAVEN'T. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, YOU KNOW, THE MAORI ECONOMY IS SAID TO BE AT AROUND $37 BILLION OF HUGE UNTAPPED POTENTIAL. I THINK OUR PEOPLE ARE OF THE VIEW THAT, NO, WE DON'T GET RID OF OUR LAND THAT'S HERE, BUT ALLOW FOREIGN INVESTORS TO COME IN. IF THEY CONTRIBUTE AND ARE ABLE TO FORM PARTNERSHIPS, LETS SAY, WITH MAORI CORPORATIONS, MAORI TRUSTS, MAORI IWI, IWl GROUPS AND OTHERS WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT, COS THERE IS POTENTIAL TO DO THAT, BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW THAT LAND TO GO. LEASING ARRANGEMENTS, WHICH HAPPEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES, ARE FINE. ALLOW THAT LAND TO GO. LOOK, IT'S A SIMPLE THING, AND IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE LAND; IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE ELECTRICITY COMPANIES; IT'S ABOUT OUR AIRLINES; IT'S ABOUT OUR OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE - OUR RAIL, OUR ROADS. STOP THE SALE OF NZ ASSETS TO OVERSEAS INTERESTS, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEYARE - OUR RAIL, OUR ROADS. STOP THE SALE OF NZ ASSETS TO OVERSEAS INTERESTS, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEYARE - WHETHER THEY'RE ELECTRICITY, FARMS- AS MR WHYTE SAYS, THEY ARE PRIVATELY OWNED ASSETS. UNLESS WE TAKE CONTROL OF OUR OWN FUTURE AND THE DESTINY OF OUR OWN CHILDREN AND OUR GRANDCHILDREN, THEY WILL GROW UP IN A LAND OWNED BY SOMEBODY ELSE. THAT'S THE WAY- NO, NO, TAIHOA. THAT'S THE WAY OF THE GLOBAL MARKETPLACE. IT'S NOTA FUTURE I WANT FOR MY CHILDREN. IT'S NOT EVEN A FUTURE I WANT FOR HIS GRANDCHILDREN. I WANTA FUTURE WHERE NZ LAND IS OWNED BY NZ CITIZENS AND AVAILABLE FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL NZERS FOREVER. MR DUNNE, YOU'RE PART OF THIS CURRENT GOVERNMENT, AND WHEN THE OVERSEAS INVESTMENT OFFICE CHANGED THE RULES IN 2010, SINCE THEN, NO SINGLE SALE OF FARMLAND HAS BEEN STOPPED. IS THE GOVERNMENT YOU'RE SUPPORTING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE TRACKS? FIRSTLY, I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF XENOPHOBIA CREEPING INTO THIS DEBATE. THIS COUNTRY'S BEEN BUILT ON FOREIGN INVESTMENT, AND WE NEED THAT TO CREATE JOBS AND TO CREATE OPPORTUNITIES. THE PROBLEM WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT, THOUGH, IS THAT THE OVERSEAS INVESTMENT OFFICE ISN'TACTUALLY ENFORCING ITS LEGISLATION THOROUGHLY ENOUGH. FOR INSTANCE, THE LEGISLATION BRINGS IN VERY STRICT PROTECTIONS FOR ENVIRONMENTAL INTERESTS, FOR ACCESS TO PUBLIC LAND, FOR ACCESS ACROSS LAND, ETC. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY CONSULTATION BY THE OVERSEAS INVESTMENT OFFICE WITH GROUPS LIKE FISH & GAME, FOR INSTANCE, ON HOW THAT CAN OCCUR. SO I THINK THE PROBLEM IS ENFORCING THE LAWAS IT WAS PASSED; MAKING SURE THAT THEY STICK BY THE RULES THAT WERE SET; AND ENSURING THATACCESS IS PRESERVED; THAT ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS ARE MAINTAINED; THAT WHERE FRESHWATER FISHERIES ARE INVOLVED, THAT THEY ARE ALSO PROTECTED AND ENHANCED. OK, MR CRAIG, ACCUSATIONS OF XENOPHOBIA FOR ALL YOU WHO WANT TO STOP FOREIGN LAND OWNERSHIP. OH LOOK. WE'RE HERE TO REPRESENT WHAT NZERS WANT, AND, FRANKLY, NZERS DON'T WANT TO SELL OUT. THAT'S WHY WE BROKE THE LOCHINVER STORY. WE THINK EVERY ELECTION HAS KEY ISSUES. WE THINK- YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE PRO-BUSINESS. MR CRAIG. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE PRO-BUSINESS. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE PRO-BUSINESS. IAM PRO-BUSINESS. PRO-BUSINESS. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE PRO-BUSINESS, IAM PRO-BUSINESS. AND THIS IS CAPITAL COMING INTO NZ. AS MR JOYCE WOULD SAY, YOUR POLICIES ARE LEADING US TO A DEAD END IN TERMS OF JOBS AND INVESTMENT. NOTATALL. YOU CAN DO BUSINESS WITH SOMEBODY WITHOUT SELLING THE LAND, AND I THINK JOINT VENTURES, LONG-TERM LEASING ARE OTHER OPTIONS THAT WE SHOULD EXPLORE, AS THEY DO IN OTHER NATIONS QUITE SUCCESSFULLY. I HAVE TO SAY THAT I DON'T THINK WE DO HAVE THE RIGHT SETTINGS FOR THE OVERSEAS INVESTMENT OFFICE. WE'RE WIDE OPEN FOR THOSE WITH BIG DOLLARS FROM OVERSEAS TO BUY UP OUR LAND, AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING. NZERS DON'T WANT THAT. LAND, AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING. NZERS DON'T WANT THAT. I'LL BRING MR PETERS IN HERE. MR PETERS, IN 2006, THERE WAS A RECORD SALE OF FREEHOLD LAND. YOU WERE SUPPORTING THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME. SO YOUR RECORD IS NOT THAT GOOD, AS GOOD AS YOU WOULD LIKE PEOPLE TO THINK IT IS. HANG ON A SECOND. WE WERE NOT IN THE LABOUR CABINET; YOU ALL KNOW THAT. SUPPLY AND CONFIDENCE, MR PETERS. HANG ON A SECOND. WE WERE NOT IN THE LABOUR CABINET; YOU ALL KNOW THAT. SUPPLY AND CONFIDENCE, MR PETERS. MY RECORD IS TO GIVE UP THE JOB AS THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND TREASURER ON A MATTER OF AN ASSET SALE OFFSHORE. SO, THERE'S NOBODY HERE WITH THAT RECORD. NOW, LET ME TELL YOU THIS. MR WHYTE, THE STEVENSON FAMILY BOUGHT ON A NZ-BUYER ONLY MARKET; THEY GOT MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF ASSISTANCE BY THE TAXPAYER, AND ALL SORTS OF EXPENSE CONCESSIONS VIA TAXATION; AND WE DIDN'T PUT THAT INVESTMENT INTO LOCHINVER FOR THEM TO FLOG IT OFF TO SOME COUNTRY- SO, ARE YOU SAYING THAT THEY DON'T REALLY OWN IT? DON'T ACCUSE US OF BEING COMMUNIST, WHEN BASICALLY, YOU ARE ADVOCATING- DO YOU WANT ME TO ANSWER? DON'T ACCUSE US OF BEING COMMUNIST, WHEN BASICALLY, YOU ARE ADVOCATING- DO YOU WANT ME TO ANSWER? NO, I DON'T WANT YOU TO ANSWER. WHEN BASICALLY, YOU ARE ADVOCATING- WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU IS IS IT IS NOTA NATIONAL COMMODITY. IT'S NZ LAND, AND IT SHOULD BE FOR NZ FAMILIES. IT IS NOTA NATIONAL COMMODITY. LET'S GIVE MR WHYTE A RIGHT OF REPLY. WHEN COLIN SAID THAT NZERS DON'T WANT TO SELL OFF THEIR LAND, HE WAS COMPLETELY WRONG. THE NZERS WHO OWN THAT LAND DO WANT TO SELL IT. IT'S NOT FOR THIRD-PARTY NZERS TO TELL THEM WHAT THEY CAN DO WITH THEIR PRIVATELY OWNED LAND. IT IS THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT, HOWEVER, TO MANAGE THE NATURAL RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE AND THE LIMITED RESOURCES WE HAVE, OF WHICH LAND IS A CORE PART. IT IS A LIMITED RESOURCE; WE AREN'T MAKING ANY MORE; WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE MANAGE IT EFFECTIVELY. AND THAT MEANS HAVING REGULATIONS ON WHO OWNS IT, FOREIGN OWNERSHIP. EVERY JOB THAT IS CREATED BY THE SALE TO AN OVERSEAS INTEREST OR A DOMESTIC INTEREST IS AN OPPORTUNITY CREATED. WINSTON: NO NEW JOBS HERE. AN OPPORTUNITY CREATED. WINSTON: NO NEW JOBS HERE. ...PAYS TAX IN NZ. EVERY COMPANY ESTABLISHED AS A PART OF SUCH AN ARRANGEMENT PAYS TAX IN NZ. METIRIA: THAT'S RIGHT, MR PETERS. OF SUCH AN ARRANGEMENT PAYS TAX IN NZ. METIRIA: THAT'S RIGHT, MR PETERS. THIS IS ABOUT OPPORTUNITY. IT'S ABOUT INVESTMENT. IT'S ABOUT GROWTH, IT'S ABOUT JOBS AND IT'S ABOUT OUR FUTURE. NZERS CAN DO THAT TOO, AND THERE ARE NO ADDITIONAL JOBS FROM FOREIGN OWNERSHIP. NO NEW EXPORTS, NO NEW JOBS, NO NEW EXPORTS, NO NEW NOTHING. ITSA CORPORATE RAID FROM OFFSHORE... OH, THIS IS JUST XENOPHOBIC. EXPORTS, NO NEW NOTHING. ITSA CORPORATE RAID FROM OFFSHORE... OH, THIS IS JUST XENOPHOBIC. ...BY AN OUTFIT WHO KNOWS SO Ll'l'I'LE ABOUT FARMING THAT THEY HAD TO GET FARM CORP- LANDCORP. THAT THEY HAD TO GET FARM CORP- LANDCORP. LANDCORP IN THIS COUNTRY, TAXPAYER OWNED- THATS GOOD. IT'S A NZ GOVERNMENT ENTITY. TAXPAYER OWNED- THAT'S GOOD. IT'S A NZ GOVERNMENT ENTITY. AND HE SAYS THAT'S GOOD. ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT THE CREATION OF JOBS HERE. MR FLAVELL, I WANT TO BRING YOU IN. PREVIOUSLY YOU'VE SAID THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE TAKING JOBS FROM MAORI. BUT THE GOVERNMENT YOU ARE PROPPING UP IS HAPPY WITH THE LEVEL OF IMMIGRATION, AND JOHN KEY SAYS THAT THIS COUNTRY IS STRONGER BECAUSE OF IT. IS HE WRONG? WELL, IN TWO PARTS, CAN I JUST SAY THAT WE ARE NOT PROPPING UP THE GOVERNMENT; WE ARE A STRONG INDEPENDENT MAORI VOICE IN PARLIAMENT THAT MOVES TO INFLUENCE THE GOVERNMENT WHERE WE CAN. SECOND POINT IS THAT THERE ARE VARIOUS EXAMPLES THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, WHERE ON ONE SIDE OF THE COIN, WE HAVE BEEN ARGUING ABOUT THE NEED TO EMPLOY MORE OF OUR OWN PEOPLE. WE SCREAM ABOUT UNEMPLOYMENT, AND YET WE BRING IN THOSE FROM OVERSEAS TO FILL SOME OF THE HOLES. THAT'S WHY WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT THINGS SUCH AS TRADE TRAINING. CHRISTCHURCH IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE. HUGE NUMBER OF JOBS DOWN THERE. WHERE DO THE JOBS GO TO? THOSE WHO COME IN FROM OVERSEAS, WHICH IS WHY WE'VE PROMOTED THE NOTION OF TRADE TRAINING TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO MOVE INTO THOSE JOBS. IS HIGH IMMIGRATION NUMBERS CAUSING MAORI PROBLEMS? NO. NO, NOT AT ALL. BUT ON THE ONE HAND, WE'RE HAPPY FOR AND SHOULD ALLOW THOSE FROM OVERSEAS TO COME TO THIS COUNTRY. THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE. AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT MOVE AWAY FROM OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO AOTEAROA, TO TANGATA WHENUA AND THE PEOPLE OF THIS LAND. MR HARAWIRA, IS THIS XENOPHOBIC, AS MR DUNNE WOULD SAY? OH, I DON'T WANNA GET INTO TERMS LIKE THAT. WHAT I'D LIKE TO SAY IS THIS. IN TERMS OF THE FACT THAT WE ARE A PACIFIC NATION, ONE OF THE THINGS WE SHOULD DO IS STOP USING PACIFIC PEOPLE AS SLAVE LABOUR THROUGH THE NZ SEASONAL WORKER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMME. WE SHOULD BE PROVIDING AN AMNESTY TO ALL OF THOSE PACIFIC OVERSTAYERS WHO ARE ALREADY HERE. AND THERE'S TENS OF THOUSANDS OF THEM IN THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW. WE SHOULD GIVE THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ECONOMY WE ALREADY HAVE. TE URUROA'S ACTUALLY WRONG. YES, ALL OF THOSE WORK IMMIGRANTS COMING IN ARE TAKING JOBS THAT OUR PEOPLE SHOULD BE HAVING, AND THERE SHOULD BE A QUOTA ON THE AMOUNT OF NZ CITIZENS, MAORI IN PARTICULAR, IF TE URUROA WANTS TO RAISE IT, THAT CAN GET EMPLOYED HERE TO ENSURE THAT OUR ECONOMY IS LIFTING WITHOUT PROVIDING SUPPORT TO IMMIGRANTS COMING IN FROM OVERSEAS. IT'S NOT TO KNOCK THE WHOLE PROCESS OF IMMIGRATION, BUT IF WE WERE TO PROVIDE FREE TERTIARY EDUCATION, THEN WE SHOULD GENERATE THE SKILLED WORKFORCE THAT WE NEED WITHOUT HAVING TO SOURCE IT FROM OVERSEAS. ALL RIGHT, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOUSING NOW. MR CRAIG, COMING TO YOU. HOW MANY HOUSES DO YOU OWN? I OWN ONE HOUSE. HOUSING NOW. MR CRAIG, COMING TO YOU. HOW MANY HOUSES DO YOU OWN? I OWN ONE HOUSE. OK, WHAT ABOUT IN TRUST OR IN YOUR BUSINESS? HOW MANY? NO, ONE HOUSE AND A COMMERCIAL PROPERTY AND A SECTION. THATS ALL THE LAND I OWN. YOUR WEALTH COMES FROM PROPERTY SPECULATION. SO IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ARE- WHO ARE KEEPING THE NEXT GENERATION OUT OF HOMES. ACTUALLY, I'VE NEVER BEEN A PROPERTY SPECULATOR. MY WEALTH COMES FROM MANAGING PROPERTY- BUSINESS, PARKS, HIGH-RISE BUILDINGS AND THE LIKE. AND WE DO THAT VERY WELL, AND WE MANAGE AN ENORMOUS PORTFOLIO WITH THOUSANDS OF CLIENTS. WHEN IT COMES TO HOUSING, I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAVE GOT IT HORRIBLY WRONG. AND THATS WHY IT'S A PRIORITY THIS ELECTION TO GET THAT SORTED OUT. WE'VE MADE TOO MANY RULES. HOW? ELECTION TO GET THAT SORTED OUT. WE'VE MADE TOO MANY RULES. HOW? TOO MUCH RED TAPE, TOO MUCH GREEN TAPE. LOOK, IF YOU LOOK BACK IN THE 19708, WE WERE ABLE TO BUILD NEARLY 35,000 HOMES A YEAR. NOW WE CAN'T EVEN BUILD 20,000, AND IT'S BECAUSE WE'VE CREATED ALL THESE BARRIERS. IT'S IN THE WAY. I SEE METIRIA TUREI SHAKING HER HEAD HERE. THAT IS NOT WHY WE'RE NOT BUILDING 35,000 HOMES. IT'S BECAUSE GOVERNMENT HAS CHOSEN NOT TO INVEST IN HOUSING AS CORE INFRASTRUCTURE, LEAVING THOUSANDS OF NZ FAMILIES WITHOUT THE OPPORTUNITY FOR WARM, DRY HOMES, SECURE RENTALS ORA HOME FOR LIFE, AS THEY ARE ENTITLED. DRY HOMES, SECURE RENTALS ORA HOME FOR LIFE, AS THEY ARE ENTITLED. THE GOVERNMENTS- SECURE RENTALS ORA HOME FOR LIFE, I WANT TO COME TO MR DUNNE. MR DUNNE, WHAT WOULD UNITED FUTURE DO, IN ATHIRD-TERM NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, TO STOP HOUSING GETTING MORE UNAFFORDABLE? I THINK THE FIRST THING WE NEED TO DO IS ACTUALLY LOOK ABOUT CREATING OPPORTUNITIES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO GET INTO THEIR FIRST HOMES. WE'D INTRODUCE HOME-OWNERSHIP ACCOUNTS. WE'D ALLOW FAMILIES TO CAPITALISE ON AN ANNUAL BASIS THEIR WORKING FOR FAMILIES ENTITLEMENT SO THAT THAT WOULD HELP THEM BRIDGE THE DEPOSIT GAP. AND WE'D ALSO STOP THE- WHAT IS A NEO-RACIST DEBATE THATS GOING ON ABOUT WHO'S BUYING HOMES IN AUCKLAND. FRANKLY, THAT IS NOT HELPFUL. IT'S AVERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE MARKET, AND I THINK IT DEMEANS ALL THOSE POLITICIANS WHO TRYAND SORT OF SWIRL AROUND IN THAT TROUGH. WINSTON PETERS, NEG-RACIST DEBATE? WELL, WHEN I SEE SOMEBODY FROM BEIJING OWNING 55 HOUSES IN AUCKLAND, I DON'T THINK IT'S NEG-RACIST AT ALL. I THINK IT IS TREACHERY TO SELL OUT THIS COUNTRY'S INTERESTS AND TO STOP YOUNG FAMILIES ACCESSING HOUSING IN AUCKLAND IN PARTICULAR. LOOK, IT'S GONE THROUGH THE ROOF. WE'RE PAYING HIGHER INTEREST RATES, FOUR TIMES THIS YEAR, AS CONSEQUENCE OF THE AUCKLAND HOUSING BUBBLE AFFECTING INFLATION. LET'S TAKE A BREAK THERE, MR PETERS. WE CAN COME BACK AFTER THE BREAK. IT'S TIME TO TAKE A QUICK BREATHER, BUT PLENTY MORE COMING UP. LATER WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE THINGS THESE PARTIES WANT TO GET RID OF. BUTAFTER THE BREAK, GENERATING JOBS AND COALITION PROSPECTS. DO STAY WITH US. WE'VE HAD NEW UNEMPLOYMENT FIGURES THIS WEEK, THE LOWEST IN FIVE YEARS. MR HARAWIRA, MAORI EMPLOYMENT WAS UP 3%. DOESN'T THAT SHOW THAT THIS GOVERNMENTS POLICIES ARE WORKING AND THAT THE MAORI PARTY'S SUPPORT OF THAT GOVERNMENT IS WORKING? AND THE MAORI FLIGHT TO AUSTRALIA IS ABOUT 60%. LOOK, THE REALITY IS, UNEMPLOYMENT IN THIS COUNTRY IS AT EPIDEMIC LEVELS. FOR YOUNG MAORI, IT'S AT 24.6%. NOW, THAT'S ABOUT FOUR, FIVE, SIX TIMES HIGHER THAN IT IS FOR NON-MAORI. THAT'S AN ABSOLUTE DISGRACE. WE BELIEVE IN FULL EMPLOYMENT. WE'D BUILD IT OFF THE BACK OF A ROBUST HOUSING PROGRAMME BUILDING 10,000 STATE HOUSES EVERY SINGLE YEAR. WE'D BACK IT UP WITH COMMUNITY WORK PROGRAMS FOR THE UNEMPLOYED AND FREE TERTIARY EDUCATION SO THAT WE COULD GENERATE THE SCHOOLED WORK FORCE WE NEED IN THIS COUNTRY TO TRANSFORM OUR ECONOMY WITHOUT HAVING TO SOURCE THOSE KIND OF EMPLOYMENT FROM OUTSIDE. MR FLAVELL, HONE HARAWIRA'S THERE BASICALLY SAYING THAT MAORI UNEMPLOYMENT IS DISGRACEFUL. YOU'RE PART OF THAT GOVERNMENT. YOU KEEP SAYING THAT FOR SOME REASON. I DON'T KNOW WHY. YOU'RE PART OF THAT GOVERNMENT. YOU KEEP SAYING THAT FOR SOME REASON. I DON'T KNOW WHY. YOU'RE SUPPORTING THAT GOVERNMENT. YOU'RE AT THE TABLE. YOU'RE AT THE TABLE. USE WHATEVER PHRASE YOU LIKE. YOU'RE AT THE TABLE. IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RESULTS, THEN, AND YOU NAILED IT RIGHT FROM THE VERY START, BUT THE RESULTS TELL US THAT THE UNEMPLOYMENT IS COMING DOWN. OBVIOUSLY NOT WHERE WE WANT IT TO BE, ABSOLUTELY NOT. AND THE GAP BETWEEN MAORI AND NON-MAORI IN THIS COUNTRY IS ABSOLUTELY GETTING WIDER. SO WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT? NON-MAORI IN THIS COUNTRY IS ABSOLUTELY GETTING WIDER. SO WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT? WELL, WE'VE ALREADY MOVED IN THAT DIRECTION BY THE INTRODUCTION OF, FIRSTLY, THE STRATEGY THAT'S HAVING A GOOD OVERVIEWABOUT WHERE WE WANNA HEAD. THAT WAS HE KAI KEI AKU RINGA, INTRODUCED BY MINISTER SHARPLES. SECONDLY, THE TRADE TRAINING PLACES HAVE BEEN EXPANDED OUT TO OVER 3000 PLACES IN ORDER TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO MOVE INTO THOSE EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES THAT COME OUT OF BOTH CHRISTCHURCH AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY. THAT HAS BEEN PIGGYBACKED OFF THE OPPORTUNITIES THROUGH THE VARIOUS PROVIDERS, MAORI AND NON-MAORI, THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. I WANNA BRING PETER DUNNE IN, WHO IS ALSO SUPPORTING THIS GOVERNMENT. WAGES ARE STILL LOW, MR DUNNE. 42% OF WORKERS ONLY GOTA PAY INCREASE IN THE LAST YEAR. IT BARELY KEPT PACE WITH INFLATION. SO WHATARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT THAT IF YOU'RE PART OF THE NEXT GOVERNMENT? WELL, IT'S ABOUT PROMOTING ECONOMIC GROWTH POLICIES THAT WILL LEAD TO BOTH AN EXPANSION IN JOBS OPPORTUNITY AND AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT, EARNINGS THAT CAN BE REFLECTED IN PAYMENTS TO PEOPLE THROUGH WAGES AND SALARIES. YOU CAN'T ARTIFICIALLY BUMP THESE THINGS UP OR DOWN. YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A FUNDAMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE POLICY THAT'S GOING TO LEAD TO THAT GROWTH OCCURRING. WE'RE ON THE CUSP AT THE MOMENT. I THINK IT'S GOOD THAT UNEMPLOYMENT FIGURES ARE DOWN, BUT THEY ARE JUST ONE SET OF FIGURES. WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T WAVER FROM THE DIRECTION AND THAT WE START TO CONTINUE NOW AND GET THE GAINS WHICH WILL LEAD TO GROWTH IN WAGES AND OPPORTUNITIES. METIRIA TUREI, CAN YOU ARTIFICIALLY BUMP THINGS UP? WELL, YOU CAN INCREASE THE MINIMUM WAGE. THAT IS JOB OF GOVERNMENTS TO DO, AND WE, THE GREEN PARTY, WOULD DO THAT WHEN WE ARE IN GOVERNMENT. BUT FAMILIES NEED ASSISTANCE RIGHT NOW. THEY CAN'T WAIT FOR SOME MAGICAL ECONOMIC GROWTH FROM NATIONAL. NATIONAL'S POLLUTION ECONOMY IS JOBS POOR, WHICH IS WHY THE GREENS HAVE SAID WE WILL INVEST IN PUBLIC TRANSPORT, WHICH FOR EVERY DOLLAR SPENT, CREATES TWO MORE JOBS THAN INVESTING IN MOTORWAYS. WHY WE WILL HAVE THE WARM-UP NZ PROGRAM TO PUT INSULATION INTO OUR HOMES. THAT, AGAIN, IS A HUGELY JOB-RICH OPPORTUNITY. AND WHY WE'RE INVESTING IN RAND D, A BILLION DOLLARS OVER FOUR YEARS IN ORDER TO AGAIN INCREASE JOBS. THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT IN A SMARTER ECONOMY. MR WHYTE, YOU BELIEVE IN A FREE MARKET. SO 57% OF PEOPLE IN NORTHLAND ARE MAKING $12,200 OR LESS. ARE YOU HAPPY TO LET THE MARKET DICTATE THAT? WELL, WE DON'T HAVE A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN NZ, ACTUALLY, BUT THE BEST WAY YOU COULD INCREASE YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT IN NZ IS TO PUT UP THE MINIMUM WAGE. NOTHING COULD INCREASE YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT FASTER. THE WAY TO HELP PEOPLE IS TO HAVE ECONOMIC GROWTH. AND THE RIGHT WAY TO GET ECONOMIC GROWTH IS TO FOLLOW THE MARKET SYSTEM. WE RECOMMEND CUTTING THE COMPANY TAX RATE FROM 28% TODAY, WHICH IS ONE OF THE HIGHEST IN THE REGION, DOWN TO 12.5% BY 2020, TO 20% BY NEXT YEAR. THAT POLICY WOULD DO MORE THAN ANY OF THIS NONSENSE BEING TALKED ABOUT HERE TO STIMULATE ECONOMIC GROWTH IN NZ. RIGHT, I WANNA TALK ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS IN MMP, AND I'M COMING TO MR DUNNE. I WANT TO KNOW THAT IF YOU GET INTO A CONFIDENCE-IN-SUPPLY AGREEMENT WITH THE NEXT GOVERNMENT, WHAT WOULD BE THE ONE THING YOU WOULD BE PUSHING FOR IN RETURN? I THINK PROBABLY TOP OF OUR LIST WOULD BE TO MAKE PROGRESS ON OUR FLEXI-SUPER PROPOSAL, WHICH WOULD SEE PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO TAKE A REDUCED RATE OF SUPER FROM THE EARLIER AGE OF 6O OR AN ENHANCED RATE IF THEY DEFERRED TO 70, AND WITH THE STANDARD AGE REMAINING 65. I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE ONE THING WE'D WANNA PUSH MOST STRONGLY. TE URUROA, YOU SAY THAT YOU COULD GO WITH EITHER LABOUR OR NATIONAL, SO WHAT WOULD BE YOUR TOP PRIORITY AS A POLICY TO GET? WELL, OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH NATIONAL OR LABOUR WAS ALWAYS ABOUTA RELATIONSHIP ACCORD WHICH ALLOWS US TO VOTE FOR THE BUDGET AND YET DISAGREE ON ALL PIECES OF LEGISLATION IF WE WISH. IN THE PAST TERM, WE'VE HAD 43 PIECES OF LEGISLATION THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO DISAGREE TO. BUT THE MAJOR PLATFORM THAT THE MAORI PARTY HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON ABOUT IS FINAL ORDER. WE SAY THAT IF WE'RE ABLE TO CONSOLIDATE, NOT ONLY JUST SOCIAL- THE MSD- SO YOU WOULD BE PUSHING THAT IF YOU WERE WITH THE NEXT GOVERNMENT, YOU'D BE PUSHING TO KEEP-? IT'S AN ABSOLUTE MUST FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE THAT FINAL ORDER WILL BE AT THE CENTRE OF OUR PLATFORM, OF OUR POLICY. IT IS RIGHT NOW, AND IT WILL BE. OK, PERSONALLY, THEN, I NEED TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION. PERSONALLY, WHAT OTHER PARTY DO YOU THINK THEN WOULD BE BEST ABLE TO DELIVER FOR MAORI? WELL, I MEAN, THERE'S TWO CHOICES THAT WE GO WITH. ONE IS NATIONAL OR LABOUR. WHICH ONE DO YOU THINK WOULD BE BEST ABLE TO DELIVER FOR MAORI? THE FIRST ONE IS THAT THOSE WHO AGREE WITH THE FINAL ORDER POLICY. IF THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO ADVANCE THAT POLICY, THEN IT'S GONNA BE VERY DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH THEM. ALL RIGHT. MR HARAWIRA, MR CUNLIFFE SAYS THAT YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE PART OF HIS GOVERNMENT. BUT YOU SAY HE'LL PICK UP THE PHONE IF HE NEEDS YOU. SO IF HE RINGS AND SAYS, 'HONE, I'M OFFERING YOU CONFIDENCE IN SUPPLY, THAT'S IT, NO MINISTERS,' WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM HIM? I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, I'D SAY TO HIM, I'D REMIND HIM, THAT THIS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR GENERATING MORE INEQUALITY AND MORE POVERTY FOR MORE NZERS OVERA SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME THAN ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT SINCE WORLD WAR TWO. I'D REMIND HIM THAT THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM AND VOTED FOR INTERNET MANA DID SO BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT. I'D REMIND HIM HE WAS IN A POSITION NOW TO PROVIDE THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP FOR A POSITIVE CHANGE FOR MILLIONS OF NZERS. AND THEN I'D SAY TO HIM, 'THE QUESTION ISN'T ABOUT ME, DAVID; IT'S ABOUT YOU. 'DO YOU REALLY HAVE THE VISION TO BE THE PRIME MINISTER TO LEAD THAT CHANGE, 'OR DO YOU WANT TO BE REMEMBERED FOREVER AS THE GUY WHO DIDN'T HAVE THE COURAGE TO CLOSE THE DEAL?' DOES HE HAVE THE VISION TO LEAD THAT CHANGE? THAT'S THE QUESTION THAT HE HAS TO ANSWER, NOT ME SO MUCH. DO YOU THINK HE HAS THE VISION TO LEAD THIS COUNTRY? WHAT I KNOW IS THIS - IF THE POLLS KEEP TRENDING THE WAY THAT JOHN ARMSTRONG OF THE NZ HERALD SAYS AND HIT 5% EVEN BEFORE THE CAMPAIGN STARTS FOR INTERNET MANA, I'M GUARANTEED TO GET A CALL ON THE NIGHT OF SEPTEMBER THE 20TH. AND IF HE ASKS US, IS THERE ONE POLICY, IF THERE'S ONE THING THAT WE WOULD WANT TO SEE CHANGED, IT WOULD BE THIS - THE ELIMINATION OF CHILD POVERTY WITHIN THE FIRST FIVE YEARS. JAMIE WHYTE, IF YOU HAD A CONFIDENCE IN SUPPLYAGREEMENT, WHAT WOULD YOU BE AFTER AS YOUR TOP PRIORITY POLICY? VVELL, ALMOST ALL PROBLEMS, PRACTICAL PROBLEMS, ARE REMEDIED BY BECOMING VVEALTH I ER. AND SO ECONOMIC GROWTH IS BY FAR OUR PRIORITY. AND SO THE POLICIES THAT WE'VE BEEN PROMOTING ON - CUTTING TAXES AND REDUCING THE REGULATORY BURDEN, WHICH WOULD PROMOTE ECONOMIC GROWTH, THOSE WOULD BE OUR PRIORITIES IN A NEGOTIATION WITH THE NATIONAL PARTY. MR CRAIG, YOUR POLICIES ARE ALMOST THE SAME AS NZ FIRST. YOU'RE THE DOPPELGANGER IN THIS ROOM, SO WHY WOULD PEOPLE VOTE FOR YOU WHEN WE'VE GOT THE REAL THING RIGHT HERE? WELL... WHEN WE'VE GOT THE REAL THING RIGHT HERE? WELL... WINSTON PETERS: THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION. I HAVE TO SAY, WINSTON'S LOOKING PRETTY SPRITELY, BUT I THINK NZERS ARE READY FORA CHANGE. IALSO THINK WE'D BEEN VERY CLEAR. WE'RE NOT TALKING IN DOUBLE-SPEAK. WE WOULD SUPPORT THE HIGHEST-POLLING PARTY. WE THINK THEY HAVE A MANDATE TO LEAD. AND I THINK WE'D FIND MORE COMMON GROUND THERE THAN PERHAPS MY OPPONENT OVER THE ROOM WOULD. BUT WE'RE GAINING SUPPORT. I GUESS WINSTON WAS AWARE I WAS IN TAURANGA, AND I HAD DOUBLE THE TURNOUT TO MY MEETING IN TAURANGA, WHICH IS, I UNDERSTAND, HIS HOME HUNTING GROUND. SO WE'RE THRILLED ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE'RE GAINING THAT SUPPORT. WHAT WOULD BE YOUR TOP POLICY THAT YOU'D BE AFTER? WE'VE SAID PUBLICLY THAT WE THINK GOVERNMENTS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO IGNORE OVERWHELMING VOTE IN REFERENDA. THE ANTI-SMACKING LAW, TOUGH ON LAWAND ORDER, REDUCING THE MPS, ALL RIGHT QUITE RIGHTLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED BY GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE THERE IS A POINT AT WHICH PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THEY CONTROL THIS NATION. IT'S THEIR COUNTRY. MR PETERS, YOUR BOTTOM LINES OR THINGS THAT YOU REALLY DON'T WANNA BUDGE ON ARE NO FOREIGN LAND SALES, NO RACE-BASED PARTIES, BUY-BACK ASSETS AND KEEP THE SUPER AGE AT 65. YOU'RE GONNA BE ON THE CROSS-BENCHES, AREN'T YOU, WITH THAT LIST? FIRST OF ALL, IMITATION'S THE MOST SINCERE FORM OF FLATTERY. AND WITH RESPECT, THE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT NZ FIRST AND WINSTON PETERS HAS DELIVERED. AND MR CRAIG, YOU GOT TWICE THE NUMBER OF WHAT? I DIDN'T HOLD A PUBLIC MEETING IN TAURANGA THE SAME DAY YOU WERE THERE. TWICE THE NUMBER OF WHAT? THAT SORT OF FICTIONAL- EXCUSE ME, I HAVEA PHOTO. YOU WERE JUST DOWN THE ROAD. I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. HERE'S THE REAL POINT- YOU WERE JUST DOWN THE ROAD. HERE'S THE REAL POINT - WE'RE AGAINST THE SELL-OUT OF THIS COUNTRY'S ASSETS. WE'RE AGAINST RACISM. WE'RE AGAINST SEPARATISM. AND WE MAKE IT VERY CLEAR. WE'VE STOOD HERE FOR 21 YEARS MAKING IT VERY CLEAR. WE'RE THERE FOR ONE LAW FOR ALL, AND THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR. SO WILL YOU BE ON THE CROSS-BENCHES, MR PETERS? AND THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR. WHATS AFFECTING THE PEOPLE IS THE ECONOMY. IT DOES IN EVERY COUNTRY 2417 . WE ARE A COUNTRY THAT HAS STRUGGLED FOR 3O YEARS, MR WHYTE, WITH THIS RIGHT WING EXPERIMENT, AND WE ARE SLIDING DOWN THE OECD AND NONE OF YOUR TALK IS GONNA CHANGE THAT. SO NZ FIRST WANTS A SOUND ECONOMY BASED ON OUR EXPORT GROWTH. WE'VE GOTTA TRIPLE OUR GDP, LIKE THE SIZE OF NORWAY, AND WE'LL START TO RECOVER THE GREAT COUNTRY WE ONCE WERE WHEN WE HOUSED PEOPLE, WHERE WE GAVE PEOPLE- THIS IS SO IMPORTANT. IT'S WHAT THE ELECTION'S ABOUT NOW. MR PETERS, I WANT TO KNOW, DO YOU GET ON WITH THE GREENS? WHAT DO YOU MEAN? I GET ON WITH EVERYBODY. YOU KNOW THAT. I'M FAMOUS FOR IT. SO COULD YOU WORK IN A GOVERNMENT WITH THE GREENS? NO, LOOK, I GET ON WITH EVERYBODY THAT'S GOTA REASONABLE VIEW ON A REASONABLE THING, AND I'VE SAID A LONG TIME BEFORE THERE WAS EVER MMP, THERE'S A PLACE FOR SOUND ENVIRONMENTALISM, COS IT'S GOOD ECONOMICS. I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT. SO YOU COULD BE IN A GOVERNMENT WITH THE GREENS OR SUPPORTA GOVERNMENT THAT HAS THE GREENS IN IT? YOUR ASSUMPTION IS THAT AT SIX WEEKS OUT FROM THE ELECTION, WE'RE GONNA MAKE DECISIONS NOWAND TELL THE PUBLIC, 'FORGET ABOUT YOU, 'DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HAPPENS IN SIX WEEKS. WE'RE GOING TO DO BEHIND CLOSE ROOM DEALS.' NOW, I'M GONNA LEAVE IT TO THE PUBLIC TO DECIDE WHO'S GONNA BE STANDING THERE AT THE ELECTION, AND IT WON'T INCLUDE SOME PARTIES STANDING HERE RIGHT NOW. ALL RIGHT, LET'S GO TO METIRIA TUREI THERE. WE DON'T KNOW IF MR PETERS WOULD WORK IN A GOVERNMENT WITH YOU. ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT YOU COULD BE LEFT OUTSIDE A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS LABOUR AND WINSTON PETERS? NO, WE'VE WORKED REALLY WELL WITH WINSTON PETERS ON THE MANUFACTURING ENQUIRY, WHICH IS A BLUEPRINT FOR JOBS IN MANUFACTURING IN NZ, AND WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, SO I THINK TIME HAS MOVED ON SINCE 1O YEARS AGO. THE GREEN PARTY IN GOVERNMENT WILL BE AVERY LARGE PART OF THAT GOVERNMENT, AND WE WILL HAVE SIGNIFICANT INFLUENCE. WE WILL EXPECT TO HAVE A VERY COMPREHENSIVE COALITION AGREEMENT THAT MEETS A WHOLE RANGE OF OBJECTIVES - A CLEANER ENVIRONMENT, A FAIRER SOCIETY AND A SMARTER ECONOMY. AND WE WILL HAVE- WE WON'T SETTLE LIKE OTHER PARTIES MIGHT FORA SINGLE ACHIEVEMENT. WE WANT TO SEE OUR WHOLE PLAN, OUR WHOLE AGENDA BEING ROLLED OUT. OK, BUT WITH LABOUR'S CURRENT PERFORMANCE, DO YOU GO HOME TO YOUR CASTLE AND WEEP? (LAUGHS) I AM NOT WORRIED ABOUT LABOUR. IAM HERE TO GET PARTY VOTE FOR THE GREEN PARTY. THE GREEN PARTY IS THE POLITICAL VOICE OF A GROWING POLITICAL MOVEMENT. YOU NEED THEM TO BE IN GOVERNMENT. WELL, THEIR FORTUNES ARE THEIR OWN BUSINESS. OUR- MY- OUR FORTUNES ARE MINE, AND WITH THE PARTY VOTE FOR THE GREEN PARTY, PART OF A GROWING POLITICAL MOVEMENT, I KNOW THAT WE CAN MAXIMISE OUR VOTE AND GET THE BEST POSSIBLE INFLUENCE. WE'RE GOING TO A BREAK NOW. TIME FORA WEE BREAK. AND FOR YOU TO SEND US YOUR OPINION ON ALL THESE ISSUES, TWEET US, TEXT US OR FLICK US AN EMAIL AND DON'T FORGET TO INCLUDE YOUR NAME. STILL TO COME, BRYCE EDWARDS AND BROOK SABIN WITH THEIR ANALYSIS. BUT NEXT, LAW AND ORDER AND THE RACE DEBATE TAKE CENTRE STAGE. ABD WE WANT TO LOOK NOWAT SOME OF THE THINGS THEY WANT TO GET RID OF. COMING TO WINSTON PETERS FIRST, YOU WOULD LIKE TO BAN GANGS. THAT'S 4000 PEOPLE. IS THAT ACTUALLY POSSIBLE? WELL, LOOK, IT'S HAPPENING OVERSEAS. IN AUSTRALIA, THERE ARE FOUR STATES THAT ARE DOING THAT - OUTLAWING THEIRACTMTIES. THE QUESTION ABOUT THE GANGS IS WHY THEY EXIST AT ALL. NOW, WE'RE GOING TO GIVE THEM A JOB, BUT WE'RE GOING TO BAN THEIR ACTMTIES, BECAUSE THEY'RE INVOLVED IN SERIOUS THINGS LIKE DRUGS AND PROSTITUTION, AWHOLE RANGE OF ACTMTIES WHICH ARE BAD FOR THE COUNTRY, BAD FOR MAORIDOM, AND IT'S THE VERY WORST POSSIBLE IMAGE FOR YOUNG MAORI YOUTH AS WELL. WE ARE NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THAT WE CAN COMPROMISE ON THIS MATTER. WE'RE GOING TO DO WHAT OTHER COUNTRIES ARE DOING. WE'RE GOING TO BAN THEIR EXISTENCE. THAT'S THE REAL ISSUE. COUNTRIES ARE DOING. WE'RE GOING TO BAN THEIR EXISTENCE. THATS THE REAL ISSUE. MR WHYTE, YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEND MORE PEOPLE TO PRISON - THREE STRIKES FOR BURGLARS, WITH A MINIMUM OF THREE YEARS. HOW MANY PEOPLE IS THAT GOING TO MEAN EXTRA IN JAIL, AND HOW MUCH IS THAT GOING TO COST US? WELL, OF COURSE, YOU'VE COMPLETELY MISSTATED. WE DON'T WANT TO SEND PEOPLE TO PRISON; WE WANT TO DETER PEOPLE FROM COMMITFING CRIMES, AND THOSE- BUT YOU'RE GOING TO SEND THEM TO PRISON IN ORDER TO DO THAT? WELL, YOU'RE GOING TO THREATEN TO SEND THEM TO PRISON, AND YOU WILL END UP SENDING SOME TO PRISON. VVE EXPECT IT'LL INCREASE THE PRISON POPULATION BY ABOUT 200. BUT THE BENEFIT OF THAT, OF COURSE, IS THAT IT WILL MASSIVELY REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF BURGLARY GOING ON. I MEAN, WHY SHOULD WE BE WORRIED ABOUT THE WELFARE OF THE BURGLARS WHEN IT'S THE WELFARE OF THOSE BURGLED THAT MATTERS? MR FLAVELL, WOULD YOU LIKE TO RESPOND TO THE THIRD STRIKES POLICY? YOUR VIEWS ON THAT? OBVIOUSLY, GET RID OF IT - THE WHOLE LOT OF IT. GET RID OF IT, AND IF MR WHYTE BELIEVES THAT THERE'S 200 BURGLARS IN THE COUNTRY, THAT'S ALL THEY DO, THEN I'M AFRAID HE'S SERIOUSLY MISLED. HANG ON. INCREASE IN THE PRISON POPULATION WOULD BE ABOUT 200. THERE ARE A LOT- THE ACT PARTY TALKING ABOUT LAW AND ORDER, ISN'T IT? HOW MANY STRIKES BEFORE YOU'RE OUT? IS THAT REALLY A RELEVANT POINT AGAINST THE POLICY? IT'S SERIOUSLY RELEVANT, BECAUSE THE IMAGE IS WHAT YOUR PARTY STANDS FOR. YOU SAY ONE THING IN A STATEMENT, BUT YOU PRIVATELY BEHAVE IN A DIFFERENT WAY. IT'S A BIT RICH. REDUCING BURGLARY IS SOMETHING THAT NZERS WANT. THEY ARE TIRED OF BURGLARS BASICALLY WALKING OUT. IT'S A SILLY POLICY, AND YOU SHOULD DUMP IT. IT'S PROVEN TO WORK AROUND THE WORLD. IT'S WORKED HERE FOR VIOLENT CRIME. NO, IT HASN'T. IT'S JUST KNEE-JERK JUSTICE. PETER DUNNE. SORRY, I'M WANTING TO HEAR YOUR POINT. I'M JUST SAYING THIS 'THREE STRIKES AND YOU'RE OUT' STUFF IS ALL THIS POPULIST RUBBISH FROM HARD-LINE STATES IN THE US. WE NEED TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT THE CAUSES OF CRIME, AND WE NEED TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT DEALING WITH THE CONSEQUENCES, NOT JUST CHANTING CHEAP SLOGANS. IT'S NOTA CHEAP SLOGAN; IT'S A LABOUR PARTY POLICY FROM GREAT BRITAIN. WELL, I WOULDN'T HOLD THE LABOUR PARTY UP IN BRITAIN AS A GREAT EXAMPLE. CRIME IN THIS COUNTRY IS NOT DOWN. THEY'VE CHANGED THE WAY THEY RECORD IT. IN SOUTH AUCKLAND, YOU SAW THEM GET CAUGHT OUT THERE. AND THEN THEY'RE CHARGING- THEY'RE WARNING YOUNG PEOPLE- ON THAT POINT, MR PETERS, I WANT TO QUICKLY ASK - THE STATEMENT IS THAT CRIME STATS IS FALLING AND IT'S AT THE LOWEST RATE SINCE THE MID 19708. I WANT TO GO AROUND THE ROOM. WHO BELIEVES THAT? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT, MR DUNNE? I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO HOW YOU RECORD IT. IN SOME CASES, YES; IN OTHER CASES, NO. MR FLAVELL? RECORD IT. IN SOME CASES, YES; IN OTHER CASES, NO. MR FLAVELL? A LI'I'I'LE BIT OF THAT TOO. I THINK WE NEED MORE RESEARCH ON IT. CLEARLY NOT. MR PETERS, YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT, DO YOU? YOU ASK ANY CRIMINAL LAWYER, AND THEY'LL TELL YOU THAT THEY'RE CHANGING THE WAY THEY'RE PUTTING THE FIGURES TOGETHER. METIRIA TUREI, DO YOU BELIEVE THE FIGURES? TOGETHER. METIRIA TUREI, DO YOU BELIEVE THE FIGURES? NO, NOT THOSE FIGURES. METIRIA TUREI, DO YOU THE PRISON MUSTER HAS ACTUALLY DOUBLED IN THE LAST 1O YEARS. DO YOU BELIEVE THOSE FIGURES, MR WHYTE? WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THE FIGURES ARE GOING DOWN. THE CRIME IS GOING DOWN BECAUSE OF THAT FACTOR. DO YOU BELIEVE THOSE FIGURES, MR WHYTE? I BELIEVE CRIME IS DECLINING, YES. DO YOU BELIEVE THOSE FIGURES, MR WHYTE? I BELIEVE CRIME IS DECLINING, YES. MORE PEOPLE IN JAIL. BUILD MORE JAILS. I BELIEVE CRIME IS DECLINING, YES. MORE PEOPLE IN JAIL. SOME CRIME HAS DECLINED. ONLY SOME. ALL RIGHT. HONE HARAWIRA, YOU ACTUALLY WOULD LIKE TO GET RID OF PRISONS ALTOGETHER. HOW'S THAT GOING TO WORK? IT'S VERY SIMPLE, AND I HAVE TO SAY, I'M PICKING UP A BIT ON WHAT WINSTON WAS TALKING ABOUT ABOUT BEING POSITIVE ABOUT LIFE. NOW, I'VE JUST COME FROM THE NATIONAL KAPA HAKA DOWN IN GISBOURNE. I SAW THOUSANDS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUNG MAORI PEOPLE, A LOT LIKE THE KIDS AT MY KURA. THEY DON'T GET INVOLVED IN GANGS. THEY DON'T GET INVOLVED IN DRUGS. THEY DON'T GET INVOLVED IN ANYTHING LIKE THAT, BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE POSITIVE THINGS IN THEIR LIFE TO GET ON WITH. THEY HAVE OPPORTUNITIES. THEY SEE A FUTURE BASED ON THEIR KAUPAPA MAORI, AND THEY WANT TO LIVE THAT LIFE, AND THEY WANT TO BUILD ON THAT LIFE. HOW DO YOU GET RID OF PRISONS FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THAT POSITMTY, WHO COMMITI' CRIMES? WELL, THAT'S VERY SIMPLE, LISA. THAT'S VERY SIMPLE. YOU BACK KAUPAPA MAORI TO LIFT MAORI OUT OF THAT SITUATION. IT ABSOLUTELY WORKS IN KURA KAUPAPA. ITABSOLUTELY WORKS THROUGH KAPA HAKA. IF YOU BACK KAUPAPA MAORI, MR WHYTE- EXCUSE ME, HONE. IF YOU BACK KAUPAPA MAORI, MR WHYTE, YOU CAN GET RID OF PRISONS. WELL, IF IT WORKS AND THEY DON'T COMMIT CRIMES, THEY WON'T GO TO PRISON, BUT THERE'S NO REASON TO GET RID OF THE PRISONS IN ADVANCE. LISA, ARE WE FOUR-? IF IT IS THAT FOUR TO FIVE TIMES IT IS MORE LIKELY THAT MAORI WILL BE APPREHENDED, PROSECUTED AND CONVICTED, THEN WE'D SAY, ACTUALLY YOU'VE GOTTA REVIEW THE WHOLE OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, BECAUSE THOSE FIGURES ARE JUST NOT RIGHT FOR THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE SYSTEM ITSELF. HONE: THEY'RE AN EXPRESSION OF RACISM IN THE LAW. WELL, ABSOLUTELY. SO I THINK THAT THERE'S AN ELEMENT- I CERTAINLY SUPPORT WHAT HONE SAID ABOUT HAVING A LOOK AT THE POSITIVES AND DON'T NECESSARILY BELIEVE THAT ALL GANGS, ACTUALLY, ARE MAORI, AS INTIMATED BY SOME. MR FLAVELL, YOU WANT TO GET RID OF GST ON FOOD. THAT'S GOING TO BE AN EXPENSIVE POLICY. THAT'S OUR POLICY. GST ON FOOD. THAT'S GOING TO BE AN EXPENSIVE POLICY. THATS OUR POLICY. GSTALTOGETHER. NO, HE WANTS TO GET RID OF GSTALTOGETHER. YOU WANT TO GET RID OF IT ON- GSTALTOGETHER. NO, HE WANTS TO GET RID OF GSTALTOGETHER. YOU WANT TO GET RID OF IT ON- WE INTRODUCED IT WHEN WINSTON WAS HAVING A HOLIDAY. I'VE NEVER HEARD OF THIS. WE INTRODUCED IT WHEN WINSTON WAS HAVING A HOLIDAY. I'VE NEVER HEARD OF THIS. SO HOWARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR THAT? WELL, I MEAN, WHAT WE'VE SAID IS THAT- WE USED THE EXAMPLE THAT IF IT IS POSSIBLE FOR MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO BE ALLOCATED OUT FOR THIS, FOR THE RECOVERY OF THAT, THAT IT IS POSSIBLE, BY WAY OF THE INCREASE OF TAXES, IN ONE SENSE, AND FOR THOSE CERTAINLY AT THE TOP END OF THE SCALE, TO BE ABLE TO- TO WHAT? WHAT WOULD YOU INCREASE? WHAT WOULD YOU INCREASE TAX TO? A FINANCIAL TRANSACTION TAX, A CAPITAL GAINS TAX. I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY DO IT LIKE THAT. A CAPITAL GAINS TAX. DO IT LIKE THAT. A CAPITAL GAINS TAX. THERE'S A NUMBER OF WAYS. AN INHERITANCE TAX AND A LUXURY TAX. DROP GST ALTOGETHER. YOU'RE NOT PREPARED TO PUTA NUMBER ON IT? NO, I CAN'T, BUTI DO SAY THIS, THAT THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THE LOWER END OF THE SCALE WHO ARE SUFFERING BECAUSE OF THE HIGH COST OF FOOD AND THATA GST OFF THOSE FOODS, HEALTHY FOODS, WOULD SAVE US IN THE HEALTH SYSTEM- PETER DUNNE, THE FORMER REVENUE MINISTER, IS SHAKING HIS HEAD IN THE CORNER. WELL, THEY JUST DON'T WORK. THE FACT IS WE HAVE AVERY SIMPLE, CLEAN, NEAT GST SYSTEM. ANYONE WHO HAS, OVER THE YEARS, TALKED ABOUT EXEMPTIONS TO IT OR CHANGES TO IT, IT'S SIMPLY FAILED. LOOK, LABOUR LAST TIME WAS GOING TO TAKE THE GST OFF HEALTHY FOOD. IT COULDN'T RUN AWAY FROM THE POLICY QUICKLY ENOUGH AFTER THE ELECTION. MR PETERS? IT COULDN'T RUN AWAY FROM THE POLICY QUICKLY ENOUGH AFTER THE ELECTION. MR PETERS? LOOK, IT DOES WORK. TAKE GST OFF FOOD. THAT'S 95% OF WHAT YOU SEE IN THE SUPERMARKET. TAKE GST OFF RATES BECAUSE IT'S A TAX ON A TAX. IT'S GOING TO COST PROBABLY ABOUT $2.5 BILLION, $2.7 BILLION, WHICH IS HALF OF THE $5.2 BILLION MR DUNNE AND THESE PEOPLE HERE GAVE THEIR MATES IN TAX CUTS EVERY YEAR SINCE 2010. THAT'S THE REALITY. A SIMPLE QUESTION - WHERE DOES THE $2.7 BILLION-? AND I THINK IT'S PROBABLYA BIGGER FIGURE THAN THAT, BUT WE'LL TAKE YOUR FIGURE. WE'VE DONE THE CALCULATIONS. I WAS A FORMER TREASURER. I KNOW HOW TO RUN THE ECONOMY. WE'VE DONE THE CALCULATIONS. I WAS A THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO. THE ECONOMY. WE'VE DONE THE CALCULATIONS. I WAS A THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO. I KNOW. IT'S CALLED EXPERIENCE. LET'S JUST TAKE YOUR FIGURE, $2.7 BILLION YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE AWAY. WE'RE NOT GMNG IT AWAY. WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS YOU'RE BREAKING THE POVERTY, THE CYCLE OF POVERTY- YOU'RE GOING TO DO ALL THESE OTHER THINGS. HOWARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT? WHO'S GOING TO PAY THE $2.7 BILLION? THINGS. HOWARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT? WHO'S GOING TO PAY THE $2.7 BILLION? REPEATING THE SAME OLD MINDLESS QUESTION DOESN'T HELP YOUR ARGUMENT. IT DESERVES AN ANSWER, WINSTON. I WILL ANSWER THE QUESTION. IT DESERVES AN ANSWER, WINSTON. I WILL ANSWER THE QUESTION. YOU'RE PUTTING UP A PROPOSITION. HOWARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT? I WILL ANSWER THE QUESTION. YEAH, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT, MR PETERS? I DON'T THINK PETER'S GOING TO BE THERE AFTER THE ELECTION NEGOTIATIONS ANYWAY, SO... HOWARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT? HE CAN'T GET HIS WORDS IN NOW. THE REALITY OF ALL THIS, I PUT THE FIGURE AT ABOUT $2.7 BILLION. I KNOW WHAT THE SURPLUSES ARE THAT ARE COMING, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE GOING TO BE MUCH LOWER THAN THESE PEOPLE SAY, AND WE CAN PHASE THIS IN AND KEEP THESE COMMITMENTS UP. HE'S GOT NO IDEA. KEEP THESE COMMITMENTS UP. HE'S GOT NO IDEA. I'VE GOT PLENTY IDEA. UNLIKE MR DUNNE, I WAS NEVER THE TREASURER THAT RAN MASSIVE DEFICITS AND BORROWED $150 BILLION AS A NATION. JUST TELL US THE ANSWER. HOWARE YOU GOING TO DO IT? SO, TALKING ABOUT PAYING FOR THINGS, LETS GO TO METIRIA TUREI, WHO'S PROMISING $10 BILLION WORTH OF TRANSPORT INITIATIVES THIS WEEK. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR THAT? WELL, THIS IS ABOUT REALLOCATING THE TRANSPORT FUNDING TOWARDS THE PRIORITIES THAT THE PUBLIC HAVE SAID THAT THEY WANT. EVERY BIT OF POLLING HAS SAID PEOPLE WANT MORE INVESTMENT IN PUBLIC TRANSPORT, SO THAT IS WHAT THE GREEN PARTY WILL DO. WE'LL INVEST $10 BILLION INTO BETTER PUBLIC TRANSPORT AROUND THE COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY IN AUCKLAND, WHERE THERE'S SUCH A DESPERATE NEED. WE'LL INVEST IN THE SAFETY OF THE EXISTING ROADING NETWORK, WHICH IS A DESPERATE NEED AS WELL. AND THERE WILL STILL BE SOME MOTORWAY DEVELOPMENT, BECAUSE THERE IS GOING TO BE SOME NEED FOR THAT, BUT CERTAINLY NOT THE $12 BILLION THAT NATIONAL IS INTENDING TO INVEST IN NEW MOTORWAYS - THE NEW ROADS OF NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE. OK, LETS BRING COLIN CRAIG IN TO REPLY. $10 BILLION. I MEAN, WINSTON WILL HAVE PROBLEMS DIFFERENTIATING ON GST, COS MOST NZERS DON'T LIKE COMPLEX TAX SYSTEMS. BUT, LOOK, $10 BILLION, I MEAN, WHERE'S THAT LYING AROUND IN THIS COUNTRY TO SUDDENLY COME UP WITH? I MEAN, THAT'S A BIG TAX INCREASE TO PICK UP THAT. IT IS ALREADY BUDGETED FOR BY NATIONAL THROUGH THEIR POLLUTION ECONOMY TO INVEST IN THE ROADS OF NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE AND MOTORWAYS. EXCUSE ME. SO THE QUESTION IS- SPENDING TO REDUCE POLLUTION COSTS. IT WILL NOT PRODUCE MONEY. EXCUSE ME, MR CRAIG. SO LETS MAKE SURE, IF WE HAVE MONEY AVAILABLE FOR TRANSPORT- WHERE DOES THE $10 BILLION COME FROM? EXCUSE ME, MR CRAIG. IF WE HAVE MONEYAVAILABLE FOR TRANSPORT SPENDING, LET'S INVEST IT WHERE THE PUBLIC WANT IT TO BE INVESTED, WHICH IS PUBLIC TRANSPORT. RIGHT, COLIN CRAIG, YOU WANT TO END THE TREATY PROCESS RIGHT NOW. SO DO YOU THINK THAT EVERY INJUSTICE DONE TO MAORI IN THE PAST HAS BEEN RESOLVED, HAS IT? SO WE CAN END IT NOW? NO, NOT NECESSARILY, BUT I THINK WE SHOULD TIDY IT ALL UP AND PUT THE THING TO BED. MOST NZERS ARE TIRED OF IT AS AN ONGOING PROCESS. LOOK, COMING UP 40 YEARS. THAT'S A GOOD LENGTH OF TIME TO BE SITTING THERE, NAVAL GAZING, AND I THINK IT WILL BE WHAT MOST NZERS WOULD LIKE TO SEE DONE. YOU KNOW, AFTER 174 YEARS, HE MIGHT BE NAVAL GAZING, BUT THE RACE-BASED LAWS THAT HE REFERS TO IN THIS COUNTRY ARE SEEING MAORI AND PACIFIC ISLANDERS MORE UNEMPLOYED THAN ANYBODY ELSE, MORE HOMELESS THAN ANYBODY ELSE, WITH A GREATER GAP IN EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT THAN ANYBODY ELSE, MORE HOMELESS THAN ANYBODY ELSE, MORE ARRESTED THAN ANYBODY ELSE AND CAUGHT MORE OFTEN THAN ANYBODY ELSE, IN JAIL FOR LONGER THAN ANYBODY ELSE. THATS WHY WE NEED TO CHANGE LAWS. ELSE, IN JAIL FOR LONGER THAN ANYBODY ELSE. THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO CHANGE LAWS. NO, NO, NO, NO. WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS ACTUALLY REAFFIRM THE PARTNERSHIP THAT WAS ENVISIONED ORIGINALLY BY THE TREATY, GIVE RESPECT TO THE LANGUAGE AND GIVE RESPECT TO THE TIKANGA OF ALL PARTIES IN THIS COUNTRY. GIVE RESPECT TO THE LANGUAGE AND I WANT TO BRING MR WHYTE IN HERE. PARTIES IN THIS COUNTRY. GIVE RESPECT TO THE LANGUAGE AND I WANT TO BRING MR WHYTE IN HERE. BOTH SPEAKAT OWE EXCUSE ME, GENTLEMEN. CAN I SPEAK? YOU RAISED THE ISSUE OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM. MR WHYTE, YOU SAID THAT MAORI ARE PRMLEGED BEFORE LAW; WE SHOULD ALL BE EQUAL. SO CAN YOU GUARANTEE THAT A BURGLAR ON ATHIRD STRIKE GOING INTO COURT IS GOING TO HAVE THE PRMLEGE OF THE SAME DEFENCE THAT YOUR FORMER LEADER MR BANKS DID WHEN HE WENT TO COURT? U-UH... A-A-ABSOLUTELY NOT > U-UH... A-A-ABSOLUTELY NOT > OUR POSITION IS THAT THE LAW SHOULD NOT- A-A-ABSOLUTELY NOT > EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW. THE LAW SHOULD NOT- A-A-ABSOLUTELY NOT > EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW. ...PAY ANYATFENTION TO RACE. AND SO OF COURSE WE'RE IN FAVOUR OF PEOPLE BEING TREATED EQUALLY IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM, WHATEVER THEIR RACE. OF COURSE. WHO'S NOT IN FAVOUR OF THAT? BUT WEALTH INFLUENCES THAT. WEALTH INFLUENCES WHETHER PEOPLE HAVE EQUAL ACCESS. THAT'S AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ISSUE. THERE ARE NO WEALTH-BASED LAWS EITHER. YOU'RE MUDDYING THE ISSUE. I MUST SAY THAT I DISAGREE WITH COLIN ABOUT SETTLEMENTS. EITHER. YOU'RE MUDDYING THE ISSUE. I MUST SAY THAT I DISAGREE WITH COLIN ABOUT SETTLEMENTS. I WANT TO BRING MR FLAVELL IN HERE. DO YOU THINK THAT MAORI ARE TREATED EQUALLY IN COURTAND SHOULD BE TREATED EQUALLY IN COURT? WELL, THEY SHOULD BE TREATED EQUALLY IN COURT, BUT THE FACTS OF THE MATTER THAT I JUST TALKED ABOUT NOT LONG AGO TELL YOU THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN LIKE THAT. THAT'S BASED ON SOLID RESEARCH. IT COMES UP TIME AND TIME AGAIN. THE UNFORTUNATE PARTABOUT OUR DEBATE WHEN WE GET TO ELECTIONS IS, TIME IN, TIME OUT, THAT THERE ARE GROUPS THAT WILL RAISE THE ISSUE ABOUT RACE AS BEING THE, SORT OF, DOMINANT FEATURE OF AN ELECTION, AND THAT'S WRONG AS WE TRY TO MOVE FORWARD AS A COUNTRY. THATS WHAT WE'VE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO DO, IN THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT, AT LEAST, TO TAKE THE COUNTRY FORWARD, AND IT'S A SERIOUSLY FLAWED APPROACH, I THINK, FOR THIS COUNTRY TO ALLOW THOSE TO CARRY A RACE-BASED AGENDA INTO THIS ELECTION- I'M TRYING TO GET RID OF RACE. ...AND SAY THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE OUR PEOPLE FORWARD AND TAKE THE COUNTRY FORWARD. SERIOUSLY FLAWED. COLIN: TREATING NZERS EQUALLY. OUR PEOPLE FORWARD AND TAKE THE COUNTRY FORWARD. SERIOUSLY FLAWED. COLIN: TREATING NZERS EQUALLY. THATS RIGHT. THATS WHAT WE ALL WANT, TREATING EVERYBODY EQUALLY, AND IT DOESN'T HAPPEN. I JUST GAVE YOU THE FIGURES. SO WHY WRITE LAWS THAT DIFFERENTIATE? CAN WE GET BACK TO THE WAITANGI INDUSTRY HERE? YOU KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM WITH THE WAITANGI INDUSTRY IS? THERE'S A BRO-AUCRACY GETTING ALL THE BENEFITS, AND IT'S NOT GETTING DOWN TO ORDINARY MAORI. THAT WAS FORECASTA LONG TIME AGO. WE PREDICTED ITA LONG TIME AGO, AND IT'S STILL GOING ON. GO AND ASK THE ORDINARY MAORI AT MOEREWA WHAT THEY'RE GETTING OUT OF IT. METIRIA TUREI, A BRO-AUCRACY? THAT'S WHAT MR PETERS CALLS IT. IS HE RIGHT? WELL, I DON'T AGREE WITH MR PETERS ON THIS MATTER. I DO UNDERSTAND, HOWEVER, THAT BOTH JAMIE AND COLIN ARE SCRAPING THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL. THEY ARE TRYING TO ATTRACT VOTES, AND THEY WILL FAIL BECAUSE THIS COUNTRY IS BETTER THAN THEY SET OUT. THE PRINCIPLES OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY ARE NOTAT THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL. WE HAVE A POSITIVE VISION FOR A COUNTRY THAT IS CLEANER, FAIRER AND SMARTER AND RECOGNISES TE TIRITI O WAITANGI. THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO EVERYONE FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. AND RECOGNISES TE TIRITI O WAITANGI. WINSTON PETERS, TE URUROA FLAVELL, PETER DUNNE, HONE HARAWIRA, COLIN CRAIG, METIRIA TUREI AND JAMIE WHYTE, THANK YOU FOR ALL COMING IN TO THE NATION THIS MORNING. FULL ANALYSIS OF THE DEBATE WILL BE ON OUR PANEL NEXT, BUT FIRST A LI'I'I'LE BIT OF LIGHT RELIEF. IT'S QUITE CLEAR I WAS GONNA BE STEVEN JOYCE. I WAS GONNA BE STEVNE JOYCE. YOU WERE GONNA BE GRANT ROBERTSON. NOW YOU'RE TALKING WHEN I'M TRYING TO ANSWER. THIS IS XENOPHOBIA. WERE GONNA BE GRANT ROBERTSON. WELL DONE FOR MAKING IT ON TIME, BY THE WAY. THANK YOU. APPRECIATE THAT. WELL DONE FOR MAKING IT ON TIME, BY THE WAY. THANK YOU. APPRECIATE THAT. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK -ACT WANTS TO CUT THE COMPANY TAX RATE. WOULDN'T THAT BE A SPECIAL PRMLEGE FOR JUST ONE GROUP, JAMIE? I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CALLACTA GROUP, MATE. THERE'S NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE INVOLVED IN IT. GOOD POINT. WHICH MEANS THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK - CHINA, LAND OWNERSHIP. WHAT DO WE KNOW, PAUL? WELL, IT'S QUITE CONTROVERSIAL, JEREMY. APPARENTLY WE'RE NOT VERY GOOD TENANTS. NOT LOOKING AFTER THE PLACE. JEREMY. APPARENTLY WE'RE NOT VERY GOOD TENANTS. NOT LOOKING AFTER THE PLACE. YEAH, WE MIGHT EVEN LOSE OUR BOND AT THIS RATE. SO, DO YOU THINK THE JOHN KEY PARTY HAS SOLD OFF TOO MUCH OF OUR PRODUCTIVE LAND TO FOREIGNERS? I DON'T KNOW, BUT THEY HAVE GOT THAT NEW SLOGAN, HAVEN'T THEY? WHICH IS? I DON'T KNOW, BUT THEY HAVE GOT THAT NEW SLOGAN, HAVEN'T THEY? WHICH IS? NATIONAL - WE PUT THE MING IN FARMING. I LIKE THAT ONE TOO. NATIONAL - WE PUT THE MING IN FARMING. I LIKE THAT ONE TOO. THATS A GOOD ONE, WASN'T IT? PROUD OF THAT ONE. THANK YOU. HOW DO YOU THINK THIS SHOWS GOING, BY THE WAY? HAS THE FEEDBACK BEEN ALL RIGHT? WE ARE GETTING SERIOUS POLITICAL CRED. OH NO. REALLY? POLITICAL CRED. OH NO. REALLY? STINK. DOES IT HAVE TO BE EXACTLY 6O SECONDS? OH, NO, NO, NO. I SHOULD THINK THEY'RE A BIT FLEXIB- AND OTAGO UNIVERSITY SCIENTIST BRYCE EDWARDS HAVE BEEN CLOSELY WATCHING THE DEBATE, SO I'M COMING TO YOU FIRST, BROOK. WHO DO YOU THINK WAS THE WINNER THERE? I THINK, UNEQUIVOCALLY, WINSTON PETERS CAME OUT STRONG. HE IS A VETERAN POLITICAL MUD WRESTLER. AND I WAS SURPRISED AT HOW Ll'l'I'LE MUD WRESTLING ACTUALLY HAPPENED. LISA, I THINK YOU SHOULD BE THE 51ST SPEAKER OF THE NZ PARLIAMENT. LISA, I THINK YOU SHOULD BE THE 51ST SPEAKER OF THE NZ PARLIAMENT. BRYCE, WHO DID YOU THINK WON? WINSTON OR NOT? I THOUGHT HIM AND FLAVELL WERE LOOKING A BIT SLOW ON GETTING THEIR BIFFS IN AND A BIT ASLEEP. HONE HARAVVIRA, I THINK, HAD THE STRONGEST APPEARANCE. METIRIA TUREI, QUITE STRONG AS WELL. BUT I THINK THE LOSER IN THE DEBATE WAS POSSIBLY NATIONAL, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE HERE YOU HAD FIVE PARTIES FROM THE RIGHT THAT ARE AUDITIONING TO BE NATIONAL'S LITTLE HELPERS, AND THEY'RE ALL FIGHTING AMONGST THEMSELVES, SO WE'VE GOT CONSERVATIVES, NZ FIRST, UNITED FUTURE, ACT AND THE MAORI PARTY, AND THEY'RE ALL DAMAGING EACH OTHER, AND I THINK THEY COULD BE KILLING EACH OTHER OFF. I'LL ALSO SAY THAT I THINK COLIN CRAIG LOOKED LIKE HE WAS MISSING A SPARK PLUG TODAY. AFTER YESTERDAY WITH THE COURT ACTION, HE REALLY NEEDED TO HAVE A STRONG PERFORMANCE TODAY TO JUSTIFY HIS PRESENCE HERE, AND I DON'T THINK HE DID. HE GOT SOME BIFFO IN AGAINST PETERS. TO JUSTIFY HIS PRESENCE HERE, AND I DON'T THINK HE DID. HE GOT SOME BIFFO IN AGAINST PETERS. YEAH, HE DID, BUT I THINK PETERS WAS THE VICTOR IN THAT LI'I'I'LE EXCHANGE, ALTHOUGH HE DID GET A FEW POINTS IN THERE. HE FAILED TO DIFFERENTIATE HIMSELF AS WELL, COLIN CRAIG, FROM WINSTON PETERS. HE COULD GIVE NO REASONS WHY SOMEONE FROM THAT VOTER GROUP MIGHT VOTE CONSERVATIVES RATHER THAN NZ FIRST. AND HE SEEMED QUITE SIMILAR TO JAMIE WHYTE IN TERMS OF THE POSITIONS HE WAS COMING FROM. SO ALSO HE WAS OUR UNINVITED GUEST. DOES HE LOOKA BIT DESPERATE? HE DOES. HIS POLITICAL DREAM IS FALLING TO BITS. HE'S NOT GOT EAST COAST BAYS. HE'S NOWHERE NEAR THE 5% THRESHOLD. THE LOCHINVER STORY, WHICH HE BROKE, HAS IRONICALLY GIVEN HIS ARCH-NEMESIS, WINSTON PETERS, MOMENTUM AND DAVID CUNLIFFE MOMENTUM AS WELL. IT WAS A NIGHTMARE. ABSOLUTELY, AND THIS IS A NIGHTMARE FOR NATIONAL, BECAUSE THERE MIGHT BE - WHAT? - 9% OF THE VOTE THAT IS PRIME FOR THE TAKING FOR NZ FIRST AND THE CONSERVATIVES, AND THEY MIGHT GET HALF EACH, 4.5 EACH, AND THAT WOULD BE A DISASTER, ITHINK, FOR NATIONAL. IT'S THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN WINSTON PETERS AND COLIN CRAIG GO HEAD TO HEAD. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT? IT'S THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN WINSTON PETERS AND COLIN CRAIG GO HEAD TO HEAD. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT? WELL, YEAH, THE FIRST TIME THEY'VE BEEN ON TV TOGETHER. THEY LOOKED A I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY COLIN CRAIG WAS VERY HAPPY TO BE THERE, BUT, NO, I DON'T THINK WE GOTANY REAL LIGHT OUT OF THE SITUATION. WINSTON PETERS NEEDS ATSUNAMI OF PUBLICITY TO GET ACROSS THE 5% THRESHOLD. HE IS FOLLOWING A FARM TSUNAMI, A FARM-NAMI, IF YOU LIKE, AT THE MOMENT. WE WILL SEE IMMIGRATION FIGURES OUT IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS. THEY WILL SHOW THAT THEY'RE HEADING TOWARDS THAT WORST-CASE SCENARIO THAT TREASURY PREDICTED. WINSTON PETERS HAS MOMENTUM. IS HE GOING TO MAKE 5%? WINSTON PETERS HAS MOMENTUM. IS HE GOING TO MAKE 5%? OH, I THINK SO. ABSOLUTELY. THE LAND SALES DEBATE IS HEATING UP, WINSTON PETERS HAS MOMENTUM. AND IT'S RESONATING, ITHINK, WITH THAT SORT OF POPULAR SWING VOTER THAT LABOUR'S STILL HAVING TROUBLE. SO IT'S THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THAT... XENOPHOBIC VOTE, IF YOU WANT TO BE LIKE THAT, IS GONNA GO TO LABOUR OR TO NZ FIRST OR PERHAPS TO THE CONSERVATIVES. I THINK WINSTON PETERS IS BEST POSITIONED FOR THAT. I THINK THERE WAS A REALLY INTERESTING DYNAMIC IN THERE. YOU HAD METIRIAAND WINSTON AND HONE ALMOST HUNTING IN A PACK. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT, BROOK? ABSOLUTELY, AND WINSTON PETERS' LANGUAGE THAT HE'S NEVER BEEN AGAINST ENVIRONMENTALISTS, I MEAN, DID THEY HAVE A HUG AS THEY WALKED OFF SET? I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT. BRYCE? OH, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THE GREENS ARE LOOKING EVEN A BIT MORE RESPECTABLE. METIRIA TUREI CAME ACROSS AS BEING QUITE POLISHED AND A PROFESSIONAL IN THIS. THE SPIN DOCTORS OUT THE BACK WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE HAND - 'TALK TO THE HAND COS THE FACE AIN'T LISTENING' - TACTICS. SO I DON'T THINK METIRIA DID PARTICULARLY WELL WITH THAT. THAT WAS AN OLIVE BRANCH, IN MANY WAYS, FROM WINSTON PETERS WHERE HE SAID, 'YOU KNOW, I CAN WORK WITH ANYONE,' WHERE PREVIOUSLY THERE HAS SEEMED TO BE A BIT OF... UM, YOU KNOW, HEAD-TO-HEAD WITH THEM. YEAH, BUT THAT JUST MAKES THINGS MORE AMBIGUOUS. AND I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE DISAPPOINTING PARTS OF THE WHOLE DEBATE, BECAUSE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT VOTERS ARE LOOKING AT AT THE MOMENT IS WHO CAN DO COALITIONS WITH WHO, AND YOU PRESSED THEM ON ALL THIS, AND I DON'T THINK WE GOT MANY SATISFACTORY ANSWERS, ESPECIALLY FROM WINSTON PETERS. THE GREENS GAVE US A BIT MORE DETAIL ABOUT HOW THEY WANTED A MORE COMPREHENSIVE DOCUMENT WITH THEIR COALITION, BECAUSE IN RECENT YEARS, THERE'S BEEN THIS MOVE TOWARDS HAVING A VERY MINIMALIST COALITION AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE MINOR PARTIES AND THE GOVERNMENT. THEY WANTA MORE FULSOME ONE. COALITION AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE MINOR PARTIES AND THE GOVERNMENT. THEY WANTA MORE FULSOME ONE. WINSTON IS DESPERATE FOR A CROWN CAR. HE'S 69. PLEASE, DON'T SUE ME, WINSTON, BUT HE'S PROBABLY ONLY GOT ONE MORE TERM LEFT IN HIM, MAXTWO, AND I THINK HE WANTS ANOTHER MINISTERIAL SHOT. IT WAS INTERESTING, I THINK, WHEN WE ASKED METIRIAABOUT WHETHER SHE GOES HOME AND HAS A WEE CRY AT HOW LABOUR IS DOING. SHE WAS DODGING THAT ONE. YEAH, AND I'VE GOT A FASCINATING INSIGHT, ACTUALLY. THE GREENS- THERE'S MURMURS IN THE GREENS NOW ABOUT IF LABOUR DON'T GET THROUGH POLICY CONCESSIONS WITH NATIONALAND LOOKING FORWARD TO THE NEXT TERM AND WHAT THEY MAY BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH, THINGS LIKE THAT GREEN CARD, FREE PUBLIC TRANSPORT, OFF-PEAK PUBLIC TRANSPORT, FOR TERTIARY STUDENTS. DOING A DEAL WITH SOMEONE ELSE TO GET THE POLICY. DOING SOME DEALS, GET SOME POLICY CONCESSIONS WITH NATIONAL. WE'RE STARTING TO SEE THAT KIND OF THINKING IN THE GREENS. THEY'LL NEVER ADMIT IT, BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE THINKING. THINKING IN THE GREENS. THEY'LL NEVER ADMIT IT, BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE THINKING. JAMIE WHYTE HAD A BIT OF A BAD WEEK WITH PUBLICITYAROUND THE 'RACISM' AND WHETHER IT WAS A STUNT OR NOT, WITH ONE OF HIS OWN LEAVING THE PARTY. HOW DID HE SCRUB UP TODAY? OH, HE HAD SOME OF THE BEST PROVOCATIVE LINES ABOUT COMMUNISTIC LAND SALES POLICIES, AND HE KEPT THE RACE DEBATE GOING, WHICH IS REALLY ALL THEY NEED TO DO, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, AS LONG AS DAVID SEYMOUR WINS EPSOM, ACT JUST NEED TO GET 1%, 2% OF THE VOTE, AND THATS WHAT THEY'RE AFTER. AND THERE IS 1% OR 2%, IF NOTA LOT MORE, BASED ON THIS RACE-BASED- I JUST WANT TO JUMP IN HERE AND JUST ASK - WAS THERE ANY POLICIES THAT STOOD OUT FOR YOU THERE? NO, I MEAN, MOST OF IT WAS A REHASH OF PREVIOUS SOUNDBITES, PREVIOUS SPEECHES, AND I DON'T THINK WE GOT ANY NEW INFORMATION. IT WAS MORE THE DYNAMIC OF HOW THEY WERE WORKING WITH EACH OTHER IN THE DEBATE AND WHO GOT THE BLOWS ON EACH OTHER. AND I WOULD SAY WITH JAMIE WHYTE JUST QUICKLY, HE'S ON .1% AT THE MOMENT. HE NEEDS TO GET 1.3% TO GET HIMSELF A JOB. THAT'S A 1200% INCREASE IN SUPPORT. OR, ON SEPTEMBER 21, HE'S GOING TO BE GETTING HIS PHONE OUTAND LOOKING UP TRADEMEJOBS.CO.NZ. INTERESTING YOU RAISE THAT. COLIN CRAIG SAID THAT WAS THE REASON HE SHOULD BE HERE, BECAUSE HE'S DOING BETTER IN THE POLLS THAN ACT. YEAH, BUT ACT HAS BEEN GIFTED A SEAT, SO THEY WILL BE INTO PARLIAMENT. COLIN CRAIG IS NOT GOING TO GET NEAR 5% AT THE MOMENT. THINGS COULD CHANGE, SO HE IS MUCH LESS LIKELY TO GET INTO PARLIAMENT. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US THIS MORNING. WE'LL TAKE A QUICK BREAK NOW, BUT WE'VE GOT THE JUMP ON NEXT WEEK'S POLITICAL HEADLINES AFTER THAT. THIS WEEK, THREE NEWS POLITICAL REPORTER BROOK SABIN AND DR BRYCE EDWARDS. BROOK, INSTANT FEEDBACK ON TWITTER THERE, AND THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THE HAND FROM METIRIA TUREI, IT GOT THE THUMBS UP. YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A FASCINATING INSIGHT. I KNOW THE SPIN DOCTORS WERE AGAINST IT. AND I THINK THEY WERE AGAINST IT BECAUSE THEY WANT METIRIA TO WIN THE ARGUMENT THROUGH THE ACTUAL ARGUMENTS, RATHER THAN USING PHYSICAL LANGUAGE, PHYSICAL BODY MOVEMENT, TO TRY AND SHUT HIM DOWN. BUT IT WORKED. WHAT DID YOU THINK, BRYCE? TO TRY AND SHUT HIM DOWN. BUT IT WORKED. WHAT DID YOU THINK, BRYCE? I MEAN, ON TWITTER, YOU'RE GETTING THIS REACTION THAT IT'S GREAT. AND I THINK IT MIGHT COME TO SYMBOLISE WHAT IS SHAPING UP TO BE A BIT MORE OF A PROVOCATIVE - I WOULDN'T SAY NASTY - BUT AGGRESSIVE ELECTION CAMPAIGN. AND WE SAW THIS THIS WEEK, OF COURSE, WITH THE YOUTUBE CLIP BY THE INTERNET MANA PARTY WITH THE F-BOMB JOHN KEY SLOGAN. I DON'T THINK I CAN SAY THE REAL WORD ON MORNING TV. YOU DON'T WANT TO BE IN THE COURTS AGAIN, UM, TV3, BUT, NO, I THINK THAT REALLY POLARISED DEBATE, AND WE SAW THAT IT'S ALMOSTA LITMUS TEST ABOUT 'ARE YOU PRO-ESTABLISHMENT OR ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT' ABOUT WHETHER YOU THINK YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SAY THOSE SORT OF THINGS AS A POLITICAL PARTY ABOUT THE PRIME MINISTER, SO IT'S GOOD FOR INTERNET MANA, THAT VIDEO. GOOD FOR NATIONAL, AS WELL. THEY'RE GOING TO USE THIS AGAINST LABOUR, ESSENTIALLY, AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE THE LOSERS IN THE MIDDLE. ESSENTIALLY, AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE THE LOSERS IN THE MIDDLE. BROOK. LABOUR DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH KIM DOTCOM, AND SOFT VOTERS IN THE MIDDLE, I THINK, THAT LABOUR ARE TRYING TO ATTRACT THAT'S GOING TO BE CRUCIAL TO A VICTORY FOR THEM WILL BE CONCERNED BY THIS VIDEO, AND BY LEAVING THE DOOR SLIGHTLY AJAR TO KIM DOTCOM, THERE'S ASSOCIATION WITH LABOUR, AND THAT IS A REAL CONCERN FOR THEM. AS BRYCE SAID, THAT VIDEO WILL RALLY NATIONAL SUPPORTERS TO GO OUTAND VOTE. INTERNET MANA, INTERESTINGLY, WERE CALLING UP THE MEDIA, TRYING TO GET IT ON TELEVISION, SO THEY WERE OPENLY PROMOTING IT. THEY'RE AFTER THE DISAFFECTED VOTE, WHO ARE NOT GOING TO BE OFFENDED BY THAT VIDEO. BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LABOUR THERE, THEY WERE THE MOST DEFINITIVE. DAVID CUNLIFFE WAS THE MOST DEFINITIVE YET ABOUT INTERNET MANA THIS WEEK. I THINK THE POSITION AT THE MOMENT IS STILL DIFFICULT TO WORK OUT. 'NO, YOU'RE NOT WELCOME IN THE TENT, BUT PLEASE STAND OUTSIDE AND TRY AND HOLD IT UP'? THAT'S RIGHT. WE ACTUALLY SEE A LOT OF THIS IN RECENT MMP ELECTIONS THAT POLITICIANS ARE DELIBERATELY AMBIGUOUS ABOUT WHAT BEING IN GOVERNMENT MEANS, SO IF YOU'RE A MINISTER, DOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE IN GOVERNMENT? YEAH, WELL, IT'S WHAT WE WERE TALKING TO HONE ABOUT THIS MORNING. YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT GET THE CALL, BUT YOU AIN'T GONNA GET ANYTHING PROBABLY. YEAH, AND INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, WINSTON PETERS HAS RULED INTERNET MANA OUT, SO THAT'S AN ADDED COMPLICATION THERE. WHAT TO DO FOR DAVID CUNLIFFE, WHO'S GOT SO MANY RUBIK'S CUBE OF OPTIONS, AND THEY'RE JUST NOT FITTING TOGETHER. IN TERMS OF THAT VIDEO, THOUGH, I MEAN, REALLY, YOU'RE INVOLVED WITH STUDENTS. HAVE YOU BEEN TO A RALLY WHERE SOMEONE IS NOT DROPPING THE F-BOMB? THATS RIGHT, SO I DON'T THINK YOUNG PEOPLE WILL BE OFFENDED BY THIS AT ALL. IN FACT, A LOT OF PEOPLE SEEM QUITE DISAPPOINTED THAT THERE'S BEEN THE HUGE REACTION AGAINST IT FROM EXPERTS AND SO FORTH. THEY THINK, 'WHATS THE FUSS?' WHAT I THINK WAS REALLY INTERESTING IS LAILA HARRE WAS TRYING TO OCCUPY THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHAT I THINK WAS REALLY INTERESTING WITH THE 'SUGAR DADDY' COMMENT. THE MORAL HIGH GROUND WHAT I THINK WAS REALLY INTERESTING WITH THE 'SUGAR DADDY' COMMENT. THAT WAS A PROBLEM. AND THEN THE VERY NEXT DAY, SHE'S TRYING TO DEFEND WHAT SOME WOULD ARGUE IS HATE SPEECH. THIN-SKINNED, WAS SHE, LAILA HARRE? I THINK, GIVEN THAT SHE WAS GETTING UPSETABOUT THE 'SUGAR DADDY' COMMENT, YEAH. I THINK THAT WAS A MISTAKE ON HER PART. COMMENT, YEAH. I THINK THAT WAS A MISTAKE ON HER PART. POLITICAL BIFFO, SUGAR DADDY. STRICTLY SPEAKING, IT WAS INCORRECT, THOUGH. COS LAILA IS OLDER THAN KIM DOTCOM. IT'S NOT THE SUGAR DADDY. AS WE ALL KNOW, WE WERE IN COURT THIS WEEK. UM, THE SHOW WAS, WITH COLIN CRAIG WANTING TO COME TO THE PARTY. SHOULD THE COURT BE TELLING US WHO WE CAN HAVE ON A DEBATE? NO. NO. I THINK THIS IS A REALLY DANGEROUS WAY TO GO DOWN. WE SAW THE PRECEDENT, OF COURSE, IN 2005 WITH UNITED FUTURE AND JIM ANDERTON DOING THE SAME THING, GETTING IN ON A DEBATE, SO THAT WAS THE PRECEDENT SET, AND IT'S HAPPENED AGAIN. I THINK WE NEED FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF THE MEDIA, EVEN THOUGH I ACTUALLY AGREE; COLIN CRAIG SHOULD'VE BEEN IN THIS DEBATE. HIS PARTY'S ON 2% IN OPINION POLLS. THEY COULD BE A POTENTIAL PLAYER. SO WE WERE WRONG TO LEAVE HIM OUT, YOU THINK? OH, ABSOLUTELY, YOU WERE WRONG, SO I WAS PLEASED THAT HE WAS HERE TODAY. SORRY, I DISAGREE, BRYCE. ITHINK FREEDOM OF THE PRESS IS INCREDIBLY I M PO RTANT, AND MY PERSONAL VIEW IS THAT THE COURTS SHOULDN'T BE DICTATING WHO IS IN A POLITICAL DEBATE. TVS SET THE TERMS FOR THE POLITICAL DEBATE. YES, ACT IS ONLY ON .1%, BUT THEY WILL DEFINITELY- WELL, MORE LIKELY BE IN PARLIAMENT, BECAUSE NATIONAL IS GIFTING THEM A SEAT. YEAH. AND YOU CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT UNITED FUTURE AS WELL. THEY'LL BE IN PARLIAMENT. BUT IT'S NOT THE ROLE OF THE MEDIA TO TOTALLY PREDICT AND DECIDE WHO'S GOING TO BE IN PARLIAMENT. DEFINITIVELY, BRYCE, WHY DID YOU THINK COLIN CRAIG SHOULD'VE BEEN HERE? BECAUSE THEN HE MADE THE POINT THAT HE'S POLLING BETTER THAN ACT, SO SHOULD WE HAVE KICKED ACT OFF THE PODIUM AND HAD HIM THERE INSTEAD? YEAH, I MEAN, THIS IS THE PROBLEM, BECAUSE MAYBE SEVEN IS TOO MANY IN A DEBATE. I'D PERSONALLY PREFER TO SEE A DEBATE... TWO DEBATES, PERHAPS - ONE OF THE RIGHT-WING PARTIES AND ONE OF THE LEFT-WING PARTIES SO YOU HAVE LABOUR, THE GREENS, NZ FIRST, IF THEY WANT, MANA, ETC, DEBATING IT OUT ON THEIR ISSUES, AND THEN YOU HAVE A RIGHT-WING DEBATE OF NATIONAL, CONSERVATIVES, NZ FIRST AGAIN, IF THEY WANT, ACT, ETC. COS, THEN, ARGUABLY, YOU'VE GOTTA BRING A COUPLE MORE PODIUMS IN, BECAUSE WHERE'S BRENDAN HORAN? WHERE'S LAILA HARRE? YEAH. WHERE'S LAILA HARRE? YEAH. ABSOLUTELY. YEAH, SO YOU DO HAVE TO DRAW A LINE. I ACCEPT THAT. BUT I THINK THERE WAS AN ARBITRARY, INCORRECT NATURE IN BRINGING IN THE CONSERVATIVES, WHO ARE RESONATING WITH THE PUBLIC AT THE MOMENT, BUT, YEAH, NOT INCLUDING HIM BUT INCLUDING PETER DUNNE. AND IN TERMS OF THAT- AND ACT. SORRY, I HAVE TO POINT OUT ACT AREN'T IN PARLIAMENT AT THE MOMENT. I'M NOT SURE WHY JAMIE WHYTE NECESSARILY WARRANTED A PLACE. WELL, THATS ATECHNICALITY, REALLY. I MEAN, THERE'S STILLAVACANT SEAT WHERE JOHN BANKS ONCE SAT, AND ACT ARE BEING GIFTED A SEAT. THEY WILL DEFINITELY BE BACK IN THE NEXT PARLIAMENT. AND THAT WAS A BIG PART OF COLIN'S ARGUMENT, THAT WHILE THEY HAD A SEAT, THERE'S NOBODY OCCUPYING IT AT THE MOMENT, BUT ALSO INTERESTING - PART OF THE REASON THAT COLIN CRAIG VVAS SO ADAMANT ABOUT BEING HERE IS BECAUSE HE WAS FEARFUL, AND HE TOLD US THIS, THAT WINSTON PETERS WAS GRABBING THE LIMELIGHT ON AN ISSUE THAT HE BROUGHT TO THE MEDIA. VVELL, THAT'S NOT- YEAH, THAT'S NOT YOUR FAULT, TV3'S FAULT. BUT- WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT WHERE HE IS AT? THAT THIS IS A FIGHT TO THE DEATH BETWEEN NZ FIRSTAND THE CONSERVATIVES, AND I'D LIKE TO SEE A ONE-ON-ONE DEBATE BETWEEN THOSE TWO IN THIS STUDIO, IN FACT, BUT I DOUBT PETERS WOULD BE WILLING TO DO THAT. STUDIO, IN FACT, BUT I DOUBT PETERS WOULD BE WILLING TO DO THAT. (LAUGHS) SOMETHING FOR ANOTHER TIME. AND NOWA QUICK LOOK AT POTENTIAL HEADLINES NEXT WEEK. JOHN KEY AND LAILA HARRE WILL GO HEAD TO HEAD FOR THE HEARTS OF HELENSVILLE VOTERS ON MONDAY. LABOURAND NZ FIRST BEGIN THEIR CAMPAIGNS TODAY, WHILE THE GREENS PARTY OFFICIAL LAUNCH IS NEXT WEEKEND. AND THE GREENS VVILL ALSO HOLD THEIR CAUCUS MEETING IN CHRISTCHURCH ON TU ES DAY AHEAD OF AN ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT THE CITY. AND HERE ON THE NATION NEXT WEEK, WELL, PADDY GOWER WILL BE BACK IN THE STUDIO, AND EDUCATION WILL BE IN THE SPOTLIGHT AS NATIONAL'S HEKIA PARATA AND LABOUR'S CHRIS HIPKINS FACE OFF. WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO HAVING YOU WITH US FOR THAT, BUT UNTIL THEN, FROM ME AND THE REST OF THE NATION TEAM, HAVE A GREAT WEEK. “Wwbvme wwwablesom Capflomwmmadepocdble wlhmdhgfiomNZOnAk. COWIIIIAIJIO 2014