NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. www.able.co.nz NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. Copyright Able 2014 GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. AND I'M PATRICK GOWER. THIS WEEK, 'DIRTY POLITICS' TURNS THE CAMPAIGN ON ITS HEAD. THIS SHINES A LIGHT INTO SOMETHING WHICH OTHERWISE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SECRET FOR THE REST OF TIME. IF THERE ARE DIRTY TRICKS AT PLAY IN POLITICS, IN MY OPINION, THEY'RE COMING FROM THE POLITICAL OPPONENTS OF THE GOVERNMENT. SO, WHO TO BELIEVE? NICKY HAGER'S NEW BOOK HAS CHALLENGED JOHN KEY'S PUBLIC IMAGE AND ACCUSED NATIONAL OF SMEAR CAMPAIGNS, BUT DOES IT STAND UP TO SCRUTINY? WE DRILL DOWN INTO ITS CENTRAL CLAIMS WITH HAGER AND BLOGGER CAMERON SLATER. THEN LABOUR'S PHIL GOFF AND THE GREENS' METIRIA TUREI ON WHETHER POLITICS IS GETTING EVEN DIRTIER. LATER, NATIONAL AND LABOUR HAVE VERY DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO TEACHING OUR KIDS, SO WHO DO YOU SUPPORT? NATIONAL'S HEKIA PARATAAND LABOUR'S CHRIS HIPKINS DEBATE. AND WE HAVE A NEW POLL - DO YOU PREFER SMALLER CLASS SIZES OR SUPER TEACHERS? PLUS, TORBEN AKEL CAMPAIGN REVIEW, CORBETTAND EGO'S SATIRE AND OUR PANEL, JOSIE PAGANI AND MATTHEW HOOTON. GOOD MORNING. THANKS FOR TUNING IN. PLEASE SEND US YOUR FEEDBACK BY TEXT ING 3330 FOR 50C, EMAILING THE NATION AT TV3.CO.NZ, OR WE ARE, OF COURSE, ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK @THENATIONTV3. WELL, NICKY HAGER'S BOOK 'DIRTY POLITICS' BLINDSIDED EVERYONE THIS WEEK WITH ITS THOUSANDS OF EMAILS HACKED FROM THE COMPUTER OF RIGHT-WING BLOGGER CAMERON SLATER. THE PRIME MINISTER'S STAFF, SLATER AND JUSTICE MINISTER JUDITH COLLINS FEATURE PROMINENTLY IN WHICH HAGER ALLEGES ARE A SERIES OF SMEAR CAMPAIGNS AND DIRTY TRICKS, YET ALL SAY HIS BOOK IS FULL OF FALSEHOODS. UNFORTUNATELY, JOHN KEY, JUDITH COLLINS, STEVEN JOYCE AND, INDEED, ANYONE FROM NATIONAL DECLARED THEMSELVES UNAVAILABLE FOR THIS PROGRAMME. AS THE PRIME MINISTER HAS BEEN SAYING THIS WEEK, WE'LL LET YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS FROM THAT. SO WE'LL TALK WITH NICKY HAGER HERE IN THE STUDIO SHORTLY, BUT FIRST CAMERON SLATER IS LIVE FROM ISRAEL. I soon MORNING, MR SLATER. I <i>I</i> GOOD MORNING, LISA. <i>I</i> I WANT TO START BY ASKING ABOUT THE ACCESSING OF THE LABOUR PARTY COMPUTER IN 2001. JOHN KEY SAYS THAT NATIONAL HAS BEEN NOWHERE NEAR LABOUR'S WEBSITE; IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH NATIONAL. I HOW ACCURATE ls THAT? I WELL, I DON'T SPEAK FOR THE NATIONAL PARTY. I COULDN'T POSSIBLY SPEAK FOR IT, BUT I WAS CERTAINLY INTO THE BACK END OF THE LABOUR PARTY'S WEBSITE. IF THEY COULDN'T MANAGE SECURITY OF THEIR WEBSITE, THEIR CREDIT CARD DETAILS AND THEIR FINANCIAL INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR MEMBERSHIP, WELL, THEN THEY WEREN'T REALLY FIT FOR GOVERNMENTAT THE TIME. BUT THERE WAS CERTAINLY NO HACKING INVOLVED IN THAT AND QUITE UNLIKE NICKY HAGER'S SCURRILOUS LITTLE BOOK, THERE'S NO ILLEGAL ACTS THAT WERE TAKING PLACE AT THAT TIME. WELL, THERE'S A FEW THINGS IN THAT. FIRST OFF, WAS JASON EDE IN THE LABOUR PARTY WEBSITE, DELVING AROUND AND DOWNLOADING MATERIAL? WELL, HOWAM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT? WELL, ACTUALLY, I'LL BRING YOU TO A POINT IN NICKY HAGER'S BOOK- YOU'D HAVE TO ASK JASON EDE. WELL, ACTUALLY, I'LL BRING YOU TO A POINT IN NICKY HAGER'S BOOK- YOU'D HAVE TO ASK JASON EDE. ...WHICH IS AN EMAIL EXCHANGE. THERE IS AN EMAIL FROM JASON EDE TO YOU ON THE 14TH OF JUNE CONFIRMING THAT HE HAS BEEN IN THE LABOUR PARTY COMPUTER AND EXPRESSING RELIEF THAT HE HASN'T BEEN CAUGHT. SO WERE YOU GUYS WORKING TOGETHER AND BOTH IN THAT COMPUTER? FROM JASON EDE. I BELIEVE THERE <i>I</i> DON'T BELIEVE THERE us AN EMAIL: 's AN EMAIL FROM A GMAIL ADDRESS, AND I'M YET TO SEE ANY EVIDENCE THAT THAT IS JASON EDE. SO YOU'RE DENYING CATEGORICALLY THAT YOU WERE WORKING WITH JASON EDE AND THAT YOU WERE BOTH IN THAT COMPUTER, DOWNLOADING MATERIAL? I WAS IN THE COMPUTER, DOWNLOADING MATERIAL. I WILL NOTAND CANNOT SPEAK FOR SOMEBODY ELSE. THAT'S UP TO THEM TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS. BUT THE POINT THAT I'M MAKING HERE IS, TO MY KNOWLEDGE AND FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE READ THE BOOK AND COMMUNICATED WITH ME- YOU COULD CONFIRM THAT- PEOPLE WHO HAVE READ THE BOOK AND COMMUNICATED WITH ME- YOU COULD CONFIRM THAT- ...THERE IS ONLYAN ALLEGATION THATA GMAILADDRESS IS LINKED- I ...ll= YOU WERE WORKING wm-a HIM. I IF YOU WERE INDEED WORKING WITH THEM, THEN YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO CONFIRM IT. SO I'M ASKING YOU, CAN YOU RULE OUT THE FACT THAT YOU WERE WORKING WITH HIM AND DOWNLOADING MATERIAL AND DISCUSSING THE RELEASE OF THAT MATERIAL AND THE TIMING OF THAT? I DO NOT DISCUSS MY SOURCES OR ANYBODY THAT I'M WORKING WITH WITH ANYBODY, AND NEITHER DOES TV3 AND NEITHER DO YOU. SO I THINK IT'S OUTRAGEOUS- SO YOU CAN'T RULE OUT THE FACT- AND NEITHER DOES TV3 AND NEITHER DO YOU. SO I THINK IT'S OUTRAGEOUS- SO YOU CAN'T RULE OUT THE FACT- ...THAT SOMEBODY SHOULD BE ASKING ME QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. YOU CAN'T RULE OUT THE FACT THAT YOU WERE WORKING WITH JASON EDE? YOU CAN'T RULE THAT OUT? FOR THE RECORD, YOU CANNOT RULE IT OUT? YOU CAN'T RULE THAT OUT? FOR THE RECORD, YOU CANNOT RULE IT OUT? WELL, I WON'T RULE OUT OR RULE- I WILL NOT RULE OUT OR RULE IN ANYTHING. THESE ARE ALLEGATIONS. MR HAGER HAS BEEN VERY CAREFUL IN THE WORDING OF HIS BOOK NOT TO MAKE ANY DIRECT ALLEGATIONS. THE ALLEGATIONS ARE BEING MADE BY INFERENCE, <i>I</i> AND <i>I</i> THINK THAT'S PRETTY GUTLESS. <i>I</i> OK, WELL, THE PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID THAT MR EDE PROBABLY LOOKED THROUGH THE WEBSITE OUT OF CURIOSITY, AND HE SAYS THAT'S FAIR ENOUGH AND HE COULD'VE JUST BEEN FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS, WHICH HE SAID YOU POSTED ON YOUR WEBSITE. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT SCENARIO? WELL, THAT IS POSSIBLE, YES, BUT, AGAIN, THAT'S JOHN KEY'S WORDS, AND, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T PUT JASON EDE OR JOHN KEY OR ANYBODY ELSE IN THE NATIONAL PARTY AT A KEYBOARD, AND I DON'T THINK NEITHER CAN NICKY HAGER. WELL, BECAUSE THE ONE THING THAT IS CURIOUS ABOUT THAT SCENARIO, MR SLATER, IS THAT THE COMPUTER THAT IS ALLEGEDLY JASON EDE'S ACCESSED THE WEBSITE AND DOWNLOADED MATERIAL DAYS BEFORE YOU WROTE ANY ARTICLE ABOUT THE WEBSITE AND POSTED THE INSTRUCTIONS. BUT WHAT'S THAT GOT TO DO WITH ME? THAT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. YOU SHOULD BE ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE. YOU'RE TRYING TO GET ME TO CONFIRM THAT SOMEBODY ELSE - AND BEAR IN MIND I LIVE IN AUCKLAND AND JASON EDE LIVES IN WELLINGTON - YOU'RE ASKING ME TO PLACE MYSELF INTO A CHAIR, IN A SEAT IN A BUILDING, ON AN IP ADDRESS AND CONFIRM SOMETHING WHEN I SIMPLY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE THAT THAT PERSON WHO WAS USING THAT IP ADDRESS WAS JASON EDE OR INDEED ANY OTHER PERSON. IT'S, FRANKLY, A BUNCH OF CONNECTED DOTS. IT IS A COMBINATION OF INFORMATION. YOU WERE FACEBOOK MESSAGING AN ASSOCIATE, AND YOU TOLD HIM 'THAT YOU WERE WORKING WITH SENIOR NATS FOR THE RELEASE'. SO YOU WERE WORKING WITH SOMEONE FROM THE NATIONAL PARTY, IT SEEMS. RELEASE'. SO YOU WERE WORKING WITH SOMEONE FROM THE NATIONAL PARTY, IT SEEMS. WELL, IS THERE ANY NAMES THERE? NAMES OF WHAT? IT'S A MESSAGE FROM YOU. SO WHO WERE THE SENIOR NATS YOU WERE WORKING WITH? TO WHOM-? WHO DID YOU SEND THE MESSAGE TO? I'M NOT GOING TO SAY... YEAH, WHO DID I SEND THE MESSAGE TO? I AARON BHATNAGAR. I SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME? AARON BHATNAGAR. SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME? SO WERE YOU WORKING WITH SENIOR NATS? SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME? NO, NO. WITH SENIOR NATS? SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME? NO, NO. HE'S NOT EVEN INVOLVED IN WORKING- YOU'VE MISUNDERSTOOD MY QUESTION, MR SLATER. YOU TOLD HIM- I DON'T WORK WITH ANYBODY OTHER THAN MYSELF. ...YOU WERE WORKING WITH SENIOR NATS. YOU TOLD HIM YOU WERE WORKING WITH SENIOR NATS, SO I'M ASKING YOU WHO THE SENIOR NATS YOU WERE WORKING WITH - WHO WERE THEY? OH, I TALK TO MANY, MANY DIFFERENT NATIONAL PARTY PEOPLE THAT ARE MPS AND MINISTERS, JUST THE SAME AS I TALK TO MANY, MANY LABOUR PARTY PEOPLE WHO ARE SENIOR PEOPLE ON THE FRONT BENCH OF, AT THAT TIME, PHIL GOFF'S LEADERSHIP, SUBSEQUENTLY DAVID SHEARER'S LEADERSHIPAND NOW DAVID CUNLIFFE'S LEADERSHIP. I HAVE CONTACTS AT SENIOR LEVELS ACROSS NEARLY EVERY POLITICAL PARTY. NOW, YOU SAID AT THE START OF THIS INTERVIEW THAT YOU'VE DONE NOTHING ILLEGAL. ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENT THAT YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING ILLEGAL IN GOING ON TO THE LABOUR PARTY WEBSITE AND DOWNLOADING MATERIAL INCLUDING CREDIT CARD DETAILS? THAT'S CORRECT. I NEVER RELEASED ANY CREDIT CARD DETAILS. UNLIKE MR HAGER, I REDACTED PEOPLE'S PERSONAL INFORMATION. I RESPECTED PEOPLE'S PRIVACY. I ACTUALLY SOUGHT CONTACT WITH ONE DONOR WHO WAS OUT THERE, AND I SOUGHT HER PERMISSION TO RELEASE HER NAME. IN THE CASE OF MR HAGER'S BOOK, HE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE COMMON JOURNALISTIC COURTESY TO CONTACTA SINGLE PERSON CONTAINED WITHIN THESE EMAILS, WHILE HE BREACHED EVERYBODY'S PRIVACY, AND IT'S IRONIC, BECAUSE HE STOOD ON A STAGE IN AUCKLAND AT THE GCSB PROTEST- THE LAW DOES SUGGEST THAT ACCESSING A COMPUTER WITHOUT SOMEONE'S PERMISSION AND TAKING INFORMATION IS A CRIME. IT'S MUCH LIKE WALKING INTO A SHOP AND THEN FILLING YOUR POCKETS WITH GOODIES I AND WALKING BACK OUT WITHOUT PAYING. I WE'RE TALKING ABOUT VISITING A CASE FROM 2011. THE LABOUR PARTY LAID A COMPLAINT WITH THE PRIVACY COMMISSION AT THE TIME AND WITH THE POLICE, TO MY KNOWLEDGE FROM THE LETTERS THAT WERE SENT TO ME BY CHRIS FLAT, AND NOTHING HAS COME OF IT. THIS IS, FRANKLY, OLD NEWS. AND THE FACT REMAINS IS THAT MR HAGER HAS USED ILLEGALLY OBTAINED DATA, ILLEGALLY OBTAINED DETAILS AND HAS THEN GONE OUT AND SOLD A BOOK. THE SAME ACCUSATION COULD BE LEVELLED AT HIM, WHEREAS I DON'T MAKE MONEY FROM THAT. MR HAGER IS MAKING A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF MONEY FROM THE PROCEEDS OF A CRIME. NOW, THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING CONCEPT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LET'S MOVE ON TO JUDITH COLLINS. IS SHE A GOOD MATE? HOW OFTEN WOULD YOU TALK TO HER OR MESSAGE HER IN AWEEK, SAY? I TALK TO JUDITH COLLINS REGULARLY. SHE'S A GOOD FRIEND. SHE WAS IMMENSELY SUPPORTIVE DURING THE PASSING OF MY MOTHER. AND, FRANKLY, SHE'S EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE CALLED A FRIEND, BECAUSE SHE'S BEEN THERE WITH ME THICK AND THIN, AND THAT'S WHAT FRIENDS DO. DID THAT GOOD FRIEND LEAK YOU THE NAME OF THE PUBLIC SERVANT SIMON PLEASANTS IN 2009? I DID SHE LEAK THAT NAME TO YOU? I I'M NOT SURE WHETHER YOU'D CALL IT A LEAK. WE CERTAINLY HAD A DISCUSSION ABOUTA NAME OF A PERSON FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND AROUND THAT. SIMON PLEASANTS, OF COURSE, BEING A FORMER LABOUR PARTY STAFFER. IT WASN'T JUSTA DISCUSSION, THOUGH, WAS IT, MR CAMERON? SHE SENT YOU A FIVE-WORD EMAIL SAYING 'SIMON PLEASANTS, MANAGER, MINISTERIAL PROPERTY', SO SHE SLIPPED YOU THE NAME IN AN EMAIL. IS THAT CORRECT? SHE EMAILED IT TO YOU? I so WHAT? so WHAT? I WHAT DID YOU ASK THAT PROMPTED HER TO SEND YOU THAT NAME? GIVE US SOME CONTEXT. WHAT WAS IT ABOUT? WHY WOULD SHE SEND YOU THAT NAME IN THAT WAY? I DON'T KNOW. I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER THE DATE, SO I CAN'T PUT ANY CONTEXT AROUND IT, AND IT'S INTERESTING THAT NEITHER IS MR HAGER. HE HASN'T PROVIDED ANY CONTEXT AROUND A NUMBER OF THE ALLEGATIONS THAT HE'S MADE. LET ME PUT SOME CONTEXT AROUND IT FOR YOU. YOU RECEIVED THAT EMAIL WITH THE NAME, AND THE VERY NEXT DAY, YOU PLACED THAT MAN'S NAME ONLINE, AND YOU ACCUSE HIM OF LEAKING INFORMATION TO THE LABOUR PARTY. YOU CALL HIM A SNITCH AND A FLUNKY. SO DID THE MINISTER KNOW THAT YOU WERE GONNA USE THAT NAME IN THAT WAY? OH, AGAIN, YOU'RE ASKING ME TO PUT WORDS AND THOUGHTS INTO THE HEAD OF ANOTHER PERSON. THAT'S NOT A VERY SENSIBLE JOURNALISTIC IDEA, IS IT? ANOTHER PERSON. THAT'S NOT A VERY SENSIBLE JOURNALISTIC IDEA, IS IT? I'M ASKING YOU WHAT YOU DID. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HER ABOUT WHAT YOUR INTENT WAS AND HOW YOU WERE GOING TO USE THAT INFORMATION? WAS THERE A CONVERSATION OR COMMUNICATION ABOUT THAT? FRANKLY, I CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER THE DETAILS OF THE POST. OK, WELL, DEATH THREATS APPEARED ON YOUR WEBSITE AFTER MR PLEASANTS' NAME WAS POSTED, I DEATH THREATS AIMED AT HIM. I IN FACT, SOMEONE SAID 'SHOOT HIM, SHOOT HIS WIFE, SHOOT HIS KIDS'. ANOTHER PERSON SUGGESTED 'CUTTING THE BASTARD'S THROAT'. DO YOU THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE FORA PERSON WHO WAS THEN THE MINISTER OF POLICE TO BE INVOLVED IN THAT KIND OF VIGILANTE JUSTICE? WELL, I'M GLAD YOU'VE RAISED DEATH THREATS, BECAUSE I'VE GOTATORRENT OF DEATH THREATS AS A RESULT OF MR HAGER'S BOOK, WHERE PEOPLE HAVE SAID 'YOU SUFFER A MENTAL ILLNESS', 'YOU SHOULD THROW YOURSELF OFF A BALCONY', 'YOU SHOULD SUICIDE. DON'T EVEN WRITE A NOTE. NO ONE WOULD READ IT' I'M ASKING YOU ABOUT YOUR ACTIONS, MR CAMERON- MR SLATER. I'M ASKING YOU ABOUT YOUR ACTIONS. I'M ASKING YOU ABOUT YOUR ACTIONS, COULD YOU GET MY NAME RIGHT? YOU ABOUT YOUR ACTIONS. I'M ASKING YOU ABOUT YOUR ACTIONS, COULD YOU GET MY NAME RIGHT? DO YOU THINK IT WAS APPROPRIATE TO ENGAGE IN THAT KIND OF VIGILANTE JUSTICE, AIDED BY THE PERSON WHO WAS THEN THE MINISTER OF POLICE? I ls THATAPPROPRIATE? I I'M SORRY. YOU CANNOT TAR ME OR JUDITH COLLINS WITH THE ACTIONS OF ANONYMOUS COMMENTERS, LARGELY. CERTAINLY, BACK THEN I HAD AN OPEN COMMENTING POLICY. NOW- BUT YOU'VE CONFIRMED THAT SHE PROVIDED YOU WITH THE INFORMATION- LET ME FINISH, LISA. BUT YOU'VE CONFIRMED THAT SHE PROVIDED YOU WITH THE INFORMATION- LET ME FINISH, LISA. ...THAT ENABLED YOU TO MAKE THAT POST. SHE PROVIDED YOU WITH THE INFORMATION THAT ENABLED YOU TO MAKE THE INITIAL POST I WHICH PROMPTED THE DEATH THREATS. I SO, IASK YOU AGAIN, IS IT APPROPRIATE TO ENGAGE IN THAT KIND OF VIGILANTE JUSTICE? I ll"s A REALLY SIMPLE QUESTION. I I NO, NO. IT'S NOTASIMPLE QUESTION, I BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE ANONYMOUS COMMENTERS- MAKE ME RESPONSIBLE FOR ANONYMOUS COMMENTERS. IN THE SAME WAY, NICKY HAGER IS RESPONSIBLE TOO FOR THE DEATH THREATS THAT I'M RECEMNG, AND I'M SURE HE WON'T BE STANDING UP AND TAKING ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT, COS HE CERTAINLY NEVER TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING. SO DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. DO NOT PUT WORDS OR THOUGHTS INTO THE JUSTICE MINISTER'S MOUTH. PEOPLE HAVE TO OWN THEIR OWN COMMENTS ON WEBSITES. CERTAINLY, I'VE NOW PUT IN PLACEA PROCESS TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE SORT OF COMMENTS NEVER APPEAR ON MY WEBSITE. I'VE SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED MY MODERATION CAPACITY. AND SO, YES, THOSE WERE THINGS THAT WERE PUT ON THE WEBSITE IN THE PAST, BUT THOSE ARE LESSONS THAT ARE LEARNT. I CERTAINLY DON'T CONDONE DEATH THREATS. I THINK THAT MOSTLY PEOPLE WHO MAKE DEATH THREATS ARE GUTLESS COWARDS, AND THEY CERTAINLY WOULDN'T EVER APPEAR ON MY WEBSITE NOW. JOINING US THIS MORNING FROM TEL ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR I AVIV. THAT'S CAMERON SLATER. WE'LL TALK TO NICKY HAGER ABOUT WHAT MR SLATER HAD TO SAY THERE. AND PHIL GOFF WAS AT THE HEART OF ALL OF THIS, AND THE GREENS HAVE LAID A SERIES OF COMPLAINTS, SO LABOUR MP- METIRIA TUREI AND PHIL GOFF ARE NEXT. AND LATER, WHO'S PROMISING THE BEST EDUCATION FOR YOUR KIDS? AND ARE YOU PAYING TOO MUCH IN SCHOOL DONATIONS? HEKIA PARATAAND CHRIS HIPKINS DEBATE LIVE. GOOD MORNING TO YOU ALL. IF I CAN COME TO YOU FIRST, NICKY. YOU HEARD MR SLATER THERE SAYING THAT HE'S HAD DEATH THREATS AS A RESPONSE TO YOUR BOOK AND THE INFORMATION OUT THERE, AND YOU NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT. DO YOU? WELL, I'M SORRY IF HE'S HAD DEATH THREATS, ACTUALLY. IN FACT, ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE FELT ABOUT HIS STYLE OF-AND THE DIRTY POLITICS THAT I WAS WRITING ABOUT IS THAT I DON'T WANT HIS EXAMPLE OR THAT KIND OF EXAMPLE TO SPREAD ITSELF THROUGH POLITICS. SO IF PEOPLE ON THE LEFT OF POLITICS ACT LIKE WHALE OIL, FRANKLY I THINK THEY SHOULD STOP IT. WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE A POLITICAL SYSTEM WHERE PEOPLE DO THAT. SO IF HE'S HAD RUDE THINGS, WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE A POLITICAL PEOPLE SHOULD STOP IT, YEAH. HE'S HAD RUDE THINGS, WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE A POLITICAL PEOPLE SHOULD STOP IT, YEAH. NOW, HE STANDS BY HIS ACTIONS AND ALSO CONDEMNS THE INFORMATION IN YOUR BOOK, SAYS MUCH OF IT IS INCORRECT. ALSO WE'VE HEARD FROM THE PRIME MINISTER THIS WEEK, JUDITH COLLINS, ALL DENYING IT, SAYING THE INFORMATION AND FACTS ARE DISSOLVING BEFORE YOUR EYES. DO YOU RESILE FROM ANYTHING IN THAT BOOK? I THINK THAT I HAD ONE THING THAT I GOT WRONG. I CALLED SOMEONE WHO I DIDN'T KNOW A WOMAN WHEN IT WAS A MAN. THATS THE ONLY THING I FOUND WRONG IN THE BOOK. I COMPLETELY STAND BY THE BOOK. I TOOK CARE OVER IT. I DON'T HAVE TO PUBLISH SOMETHING UNLESS I'M SURE I'VE GOT IT RIGHT. AND WHAT WE'RE REALLY SEEING IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE IN A CORNER WITH EMBARRASSING THINGS WHO DON'T WANT TO ADMIT ANYTHING, WHO DON'T WANT TO GIVE AN INCH, ARE SAYING I MADE IT UP AND CALLING ME NAMES. OK, WELL, LET'S BE CLEAR ABOUT LABOUR'S WEBSITE, THEN. IN YOUR BOOK YOU SAY THAT FOUR COMPUTERS ACCESSED THE WEBSITE, THAT ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS CAMERON SLATER'S HOME COMPUTER- ONE'S CLEARLY THAT, YES. THAT ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS CAMERON SLATER'S HOME COMPUTER- ONE'S CLEARLY THAT, YES. YES. ONE WAS LINKED BACK TO NATIONAL PARTY HEADQUARTERS. <i>L</i> NATIONAL.ORG.NZ, rr SAID, YES. <i>I</i> RIGHT. ONE WAS LEAKED TO- ONE WAS CONNECTED TO AN ASSOCIATE OF MR SLATER'S. RIGHT. ONE WAS LEAKED TO- ONE WAS THAT'S RIGHT. SLATER'S. RIGHT. ONE WAS LEAKED TO- ONE WAS THAT'S RIGHT. THE FOURTH COMPUTER - WHOSE WAS IT? THE FOURTH COMPUTER- THERE WAS A COMPUTER WHICH WAS CLEARLY IDENTIFIABLE BY ITS TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS AS VISITING TWICE - EARLY IN THE PROCESS AND THEN SECOND, AT THE SAME TIME AS SLATER LATER, WHILE THEY WERE INVESTIGATING. THERE WAS ONLY ONE COMPUTER LEFI'. AND WHAT WE DO KNOW FROM THE EMAILS IS THAT JASON EDE DEFINITELY VISITED, BECAUSE HE WAS, AFTERWARDS, TALKING ABOUT HOW HE WAS LUCKY HE'D GOTAWAY WITH IT. HE WAS NEARLY CAUGHT, BUT HE HAD A PARTICULAR CHANGING IP ADDRESS. IT'S LIKE HIS COMPUTER PHONE NUMBER WAS DESIGNED TO CHANGE OVER TIME SO HE COULDN'T BE TRACED. SO WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT EDE'S VISITS WERE THE TWO OTHER ONES THAT APPEARED THERE. THE COMPUTER- ISN'T WHAT YOU KNOW, THOUGH, MR HAGER, ISN'T WHAT YOU KNOW THAT ONE COMPUTER HAD A ROAMING IP ADDRESS, I AND EDE SENT AN EMAIL. I YOU DRAW THE BOW THAT IT'S HIS COMPUTER FROM THOSE THINGS, BUT YOU CAN'T CATEGORICALLY SAY IT WAS HIS COMPUTER. NO, YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT. I CANNOT CATEGORICALLY SAY THAT WAS HIS COMPUTER. BUT IF THE LOGS ARE CORRECT AND IF HIS EMAIL IS CORRECT THAT, 'PHEW, I NEARLY GOT CAUGHT THERE. LUCKILY I CHANGED MY IP ADDRESS. 'THANK GOODNESS FOR CHANGING IP ADDRESSES' - IF THAT'S CORRECT, THEN THE ONE THAT IT WAS WAS THAT PERSON WHO VISITED TWICE. THATS CORRECT. JOHN KEY SAYS THAT IF JASON EDE HAD A LOOK, IT WAS PROBABLY ONLY CURIOSITY ANYWAY, AND THAT'S ALL RIGHT. YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT? NO, YOU JUST CANNOT SAY THAT, BECAUSE IT WAS WITHIN A CONTEXT. THE CONTEXT OF IT WAS THAT THE VULNERABILITY ON THE WEBSITE HAD BEEN FOUND BYA FRIEND OF CAMERON SLATER'S. CAMERON SLATER OBVIOUSLY CONTACTED EDE OR OTHER PEOPLE. THE NATIONAL PARTY IT PERSON ALSO WENT IN THERE. AND AT THE END OF THAT PROCESS, THEY HADN'T JUST HAD A LOOK AROUND; THEY HAD DOWNLOADED LABOUR PARTY EMAILS AND DONATION INFORMATION, ALL THEIR MEMBERS AND THINGS. AND THEN THE OTHER THING WHICH HASN'T BEEN MENTIONED YET IS THAT EDE AND SLATER, SITTING IN WELLINGTON AND AUCKLAND, PRESUMABLY, EMAILED BACK AND FORWARD AS THEY BOTH SEPARATELY WENT THROUGH THE DATAAND DECIDED WHICH BITS- SO YOU'RE SAYING THE TOTALITY OF THE INFORMATION POINTS TO HIM, IN YOUR VIEW, CATEGORICALLY? CATEGORICALLY. OF THE INFORMATION POINTS TO HIM, IN YOUR VIEW, CATEGORICALLY? CATEGORICALLY. OK, MR GOFF, I WANT TO BRING YOU IN ON THIS CONVERSATION HERE. THIS INFORMATION THAT WAS OBTAINED FROM THE SIS BRIEFING PAPERS - JOHN KEY SAYS THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT, DIDN'T SPEED UP THE PROCESS. I DO YOU TAKE HIM AT HIS WORD ON THAT? I NO. I REGRET TO HAVE TO SAY THAT, BUT THE PRIME MINISTER'S LYING. EVERY OIA REQUEST To THE SIS WILL GO ACROSS JOHN KEY'S DESK. NOW, THERE'S SOME OTHER FACTORS THATARE PERTINENT TO THIS. I WAS RUNG UP BY THE HEAD OF THE SIS TO SAY HE'D HAD AN OIA RELEASE AND HE WAS TELLING ME THAT HE WAS GOING TO RELEASE IT. I SAID, 'WHO'S IT FROM?' HE SAID, 'A MR SLATER.' I SAID, 'WHATS HIS FIRST NAME?' 'CAMERON SLATER.' I SAID, 'YOU KNOW WHO CAMERON SLATER IS, DON'T YOU?' 'OH, YES, I DO.' 'WHEN DID YOU GET IT?' 'I GOT IT TODAY.' 'WHEN ARE YOU INTENDING TO RELEASE IT?' 'TODAY.' THAT IS UNHEARD OF. I'VE BEEN IN POLITICS FOR 30 YEARS. I DON'T KNOW OF ANYONE WHO HAS HAD AN OIA RETURNED IN LESS THAN 2O DAYS, AND I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY THAT'S GOT AN OIA RELEASED FROM THE SIS IN THAT WAY. YOU WERE IN A WAR OF WORDS WITH MR TUCKER AT THAT TIME. IT WAS CLEAR THAT THERE WAS A DEGREE OF ANIMOSITY THERE. WOULDN'T IT BE IN HIS INTEREST TO GET THAT INFORMATION OUT TO EMBARRASS YOU OR SHOW THAT HE WAS- I WARREN TUCKER IS A CML SERVANT. I AS HEAD OF THE SIS HE DOES NOTHING THAT IS INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT JOHN OR WHOEVER IS PRIME MINISTER OF THE DAY ASKS HIM TO DO. OTHER PEOPLE, INCLUDING THE DOMINION POST AND RADIO NZ, PUT IN IDENTICAL. THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THAT FOR A LONG TIME. THE FACT THAT SLATER RECEIVED THIS IS CLEARLY UNDER INSTRUCTION FROM JOHN KEY, AND IT'S DISINGENUOUS OF HIM TO DENY THAT. IT'S DISHONEST. METIRIA TUREI, CAMERON SLATER SAYS THAT ll"s NOT ILLEGAL, WHAT HE'S EEIB ACTUALLY, THE BEST EXAMPLE IS YOU WALK IN THROUGH THE OPEN BACK DOOR OF SOMEBODY'S HOUSE AND YOU FOSSICK ABOUT WITH THEIR STUFF; YOU TAKE SOME STUFF AWAY WITH YOU. THAT IS ILLEGAL. IT IS THE SAME BEHAVIOUR IN THE CRIMES ACT IF YOU HAVE UNAUTHORISED ACCESS WITHOUT PERMISSION TO THIS KIND OF INFORMATION. IT IS ILLEGAL. CONSPIRING TO COMMIT A CRIME LIKE THIS IS ILLEGAL. SO THERE ARE NUMEROUS CRIMES THAT ARE ALLEGED IN MR HAGER'S BOOK, AND THEY NEED TO BE INVESTIGATED, WHICH IS WHY WE'VE COMPLAINED TO THE POLICE. I'M WONDERING, IF YOU'RE SO CATEGORICAL ABOUT THE FACT IT'S ILLEGAL - AND YOU'RE NODDING YOUR HEAD, MR GOFF - WHY DID YOU NOT DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT AT THE TIME? I WHY DO I THINK THAT IT'S WRONG -l IT'S LIKE CAMERON SLATER SAYING, 'YES, I BURGLED THE HOUSE, BUT THE DOOR WAS OPEN.' I HE STILL BURGLED THE HOUSE. I I KNOW, BUT WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE IT UP AT THE TIME, MR GOFF? BECAUSE THIS THING WAS DESIGNED, AS I THINK NICKY HAGER'S BOOK INDICATES, TO BE A CONSTANT DISTRACTION FROM THE DEBATE ABOUT ISSUES AND THE DEBATE ABOUT POLICIES. JUST LIKE LABOUR'S SAYING THIS TIME IT'S ABOUT POSITIVE POLICY. DEBATE ABOUT POLICIES. JUST LIKE LABOUR'S SAYING THIS TIME IT'S ABOUT POSITIVE POLICY. SO WHY DISTRACT FROM POLICY NOW? BECAUSE YOU INVITED ME ON THE PROGRAMME AND BECAUSE I THINK THIS REVEALS THE UNDERBELLY OF NATIONAL PARTY POLITICS, AND FRANKLY, IT'S PRETTY UGLY. YOU KNOW, MOST NZERS WOULD ASSOCIATE THIS WITH RICHARD NIXON, NOT WITH NZ POLITICS. THATS NOT THE POLITICS WE WANT; IT'S NOT WHAT WE EXPECT; IT'S NOT WHAT WE HOPE FOR. AND ALL CREDIT TO NICKY HAGER FOR REVEALING THIS, BECAUSE THE PUBLIC HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW HOW THAT POLITICS IS BEING CONDUCTED. WITH THE TIME WE'VE GOT LEFT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SIMON PLEASANTS, WHO WAS AN EMPLOYEE I WHO WAS OUTED IN A VERY PUBLIC WAY. I METIRIA TUREI, JUDITH COLLINS HAS CONFIRMED THAT SHE RELEASED THAT NAME. SHE SAYS IT WAS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? SHE GOT ACCESS TO THAT INFORMATION AS A MINISTER AND AS A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT. SHE PASSED IT ON IN ORDER TO FUEL A SMEAR CAMPAIGN THAT LED TO DEATH THREATS TO A PUBLIC SERVANT. THAT IS APPALLING BEHAVIOUR BYA MINISTER OF THE CROWN. SHE SHOULD BE SACKED FOR THAT, FRANKLY, AND SHE WOULD HAVE IN ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES, EXCEPT THAT JOHN KEY IS BACKING HER. THAT IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE FOR A MINISTER TO BEHAVE LIKE THAT, NOT EVER. NICKY HAGER, THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS HE'S NOT GONNA LOOK AT THESE CLAIMS AGAINST JUDITH COLLINS BECAUSE HE'S ASKED HER AND SHE SAID, 'IT'S ALL OK.' WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT, NOW THAT THE MINISTER HAS ADMITTED PASSING THE NAME ON? I THINK YOU CAN SEE A CONSISTENT APPROACH FROM THE NATIONAL PARTY AND THE PRIME MINISTER. THEY DON'T WANT TO ENGAGE WITH ISSUES AND THEY'RE HOPING THAT PEOPLE WON'T TAKE NOTICE, AND THAT IF THEY JUST REFUSE TO COMMENT THAT THE MEDIA WILL MOVE ON. SO THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING. IN THE CASE OF THIS ONE WITH SIMON PLEASANTS, WHEN I READ THAT, THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MOST OFFENDED ME WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK. BECAUSE THERE'S A PUBLIC SERVANT SITTING THERE, AND THE MINISTER OF POLICE, WITHOUT ANY GOOD EVIDENCE, DECIDES THAT, 'HUH, WE'VE HAD A LOT OF FLACK ABOUT THIS BILL ENGLISH HOUSE, 'CLAIMING MONEY HE SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD. LETS DO SOMEONE-' WHICH IS THE WAY SHE TALKS. 'LET'S FIND SOMEONE TO PUNISH FOR THIS.' AND SO SHE GOES AFTER A PUBLIC SERVANT- SHE MIGHT HAVE JUST BEEN CONFIRMING AVERY INNOCENT QUESTION, LIKE, 'WHO'S THIS GUY? WHO'S THIS LABOUR GUY?' SHE MAY HAVE BEEN DOING THAT, EXCEPT IT WAS ONE WEEK AFTER THE EMBARRASSMENT THAT NATIONAL HAD SUFFERED OVER BILL ENGLISH'S HOUSE, AND THE DAY AFTER SHE SENDS THROUGH THE NAME, CAMERON SLATER STARTS ATTACKING HIM ON HIS WEBSITE. SO I BELIEVE -AND SHE HASN'T DENIED THIS - THAT SHE LEAKED THE NAME OF SOMEONE WHO-AS MINISTER OF POLICE SHE LEAKED THE NAME OF SOMEONE WHO SHE THOUGHT COULD BE BLAMED AND WATCHED HIM BEING PERSECUTED IN PUBLIC WITHOUTA CHANCE TO DEFEND HIMSELF. VERY UNCOOL. IN ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT, SHE WOULD HAVE TO RESIGN FOR MISUSING THE INFORMATION, FOR BEING PART OF A SMEAR CAMPAIGN, AND AS YOU PUT IT BEFORE, LISA, INDULGING IN VIGILANTE JUSTICE. FOR BEING PART OF A SMEAR CAMPAIGN, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY INAPPROPRIATE. INDULGING IN VIGILANTE JUSTICE. FOR BEING PART OF A SMEAR CAMPAIGN, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY INAPPROPRIATE. WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE. WE SHOULD ACTUALLY SAY THAT MR PLEASANTS DENIES EVER LEAKING ANY INFORMATION, AND THERE WAS NO PROPER CHANNELS PURSUED IN TERMS OF THAT INVESTIGATION. WE'LL TALK MORE ABOUT DIGGING DIRT WITH OUR PANEL, JOSIE PAGANI AND MATTHEW HOOTON, BUT FIRST, WHATARE LABOURAND NATIONAL PROMISING WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION? HEKIA PARATAAND CHRIS HIPKINS GO HEAD TO HEAD. SO THIS MORNING, NATIONAL'S HEKIA PARATAAND LABOUR'S CHRIS HIPKINS ARE WITH US I TO DEBATE THEIR PARTIES' POLICIES. I BUT TO KICK OFF, A 3 NEWS REID RESEARCH POLL ASKING WHICH OF THE MAJOR PARTIES' TOP EDUCATION POLICIES VOTERS PREFER. NOW, LABOUR IS PROMISING 2000 MORE TEACHERS TO REDUCE CLASS SIZES AT A COST OF $403 MILLION OVER FOUR YEARS. NATIONAL WANTS TO PAY THE BEST TEACHERS AND PRINCIPLES TO HELP OTHER TEACHERS IN SCHOOLS - PRICE TAG THERE, $359 MILLION OVER FOUR YEARS. BUT IT'S LABOUR'S POLICY OF REDUCING CLASS SIZES THAT IS MOST POPULAR, WITH 52% SUPPORT. NATIONAL'S SUPER TEACHER POLICY IS AT 40%. AND IF YOU DRILL DOWN INTO THE VIEWS OF NATIONAL VOTERS, EVEN A QUARTER OF THEM PREFER LABOUR'S IDEA. SO LET'S HEAR WHAT THE EDUCATION SPOKESPEOPLE HAVE TO SAY, THERE WITH PADDY GOWER. THANKS, LISA. AND HEKIA PARATA AND CHRIS HIPKINS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US. WELL, WE SAW THE RESULTS THERE. CHRIS HIPKINS, LABOUR'S POLICY IS MORE POPULAR, SO WE'LL START WITH YOU, HEKIA PARATA. WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRONG WITH HAVING FEWER KIDS IN THE CLASSROOM? IS THERE ANYTHING ACTUALLY WRONG WITH HAVING FEWER KIDS IN THE CLASSROOM. OH, NOT AT ALL, BUT NEVERTHELES$, YOU STILL NEED REALLY GOOD TEACHING PRACTICE HOWEVER MANY YOU HAVE. VERY FEW OF US REMEMBER HOW MANY KIDS WERE IN OUR CLASS, BUT WE REMEMBER WHETHER WE HAD A GOOD TEACHER OR NOT. AND THE NEXT THING TO KNOW IS THAT IT'S NOT ONE OR THE OTHER. IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS, TEACHER NUMBERS HAVE INCREASED BY 15%, WHILE STUDENT NUMBERS HAVE INCREASED BY LESS THAN 1%. SO IT'S BOTH ABOUT HAVING THE RIGHT NUMBER OF TEACHERS AND IT'S ABOUT ENSURING THAT THERE'S GOOD QUALITY TEACHING PRACTICE ACROSS THE EDUCATION SYSTEM. CHRIS HIPKINS, YOU HEARD THE MINISTER THERE. SHE'S SAYING THERE IS FEWER KIDS IN THE CLASSROOM. WHAT'S YOUR POLICY ALL ABOUT, THEN? MINISTER THERE. SHE'S SAYING THERE IS FEWER KIDS IN THE CLASSROOM. WHAT'S YOUR POLICY ALL ABOUT, THEN? WELL, NO, THERE AREN'T FEWER KIDS IN THE CLASSROOM. BUT I DO AGREE WITH ONE POINT THAT HEKIA JUST MADE, WHICH IS IT'S NOT EITHER OR. ACTUALLY, SMALLER CLASS SIZES DOES LEAD TO BETTER QUALITY TEACHING. EVERY PARENT KNOWS THAT THE MORE ONE-ON-ONE TIME THEIR CHILD HAS WITH THE TEACHER, THE BETTER THE QUALITY OF THE LEARNING EXPERIENCE IS GOING TO BE. SO SMALLER CLASS SIZES CONTRIBUTE TO A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT ARE REALLY EFFECTIVE. SO CLASS SIZES THEMSELVES SHOULDN'T BE ISOLATED OUT AS BEING A SILVER BULLET, BUT THEY CONTRIBUTE TO A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS THAT WILL HELP TO IMPROVE STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT. BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM HERE. BECAUSE VOTERS HAVE A CHOICE, IT IS ONE OR THE OTHER. NO, BUT THAT'S THE POINT I' IT ISN'T ONE OR THE OTHER. M MAKING. I. NUMBER OF TEACHERS THAT ARE WE'VE ALREADY INCREASED THE I IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM. IT'S $400 MILLION EACH WAY. YOU DON'T GET BOTH. MY POINT IS THAT IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, THE NUMBER OF TEACHERS HAVE INCREASED IN OUR SYSTEM. WE'VE ALSO, IN THIS POLICY, FOCUSED ON HOW WE RAISE THE TEACHING PRACTICE ACROSS THE SYSTEM. IN ADDITION, OF COURSE, WE'VE LINKED UP ALL OUR SCHOOLS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF DOING THAT, CONNECTING THEM TO DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY. WE'RE CREATING MORE MODERN LEARNING ENVIRONMENTS WHERE INNOVATIVE TEACHING IS WHAT WE'RE FOCUSING ON AS MUCH AS THE MORE TRADITIONAL ASPECTS. OK, MINISTER, CAN YOU GUARANTEE, THEN, CLASS SIZES THE SAME AS WHAT LABOUR IS PROMISING? CAN YOU GUARANTEE THAT, SMALLER CLASS SIZES? WHAT WE'RE FOCUSED ON IS HOW DOES EVERY CHILD GETA BETTER EDUCATION, AND THE EVIDENCE IS REALLY CLEAR THAT THEY ARE GETTING A BETTER EDUCATION. YES OR NO - CAN YOU GUARANTEE CLASS SIZES-? NO, BECAUSE THAT QUESTION- YES OR NO - CAN YOU GUARANTEE CLASS SIZES-? NO, BECAUSE THAT QUESTION- OK, YOU CAN'T, SO, CHRIS HIPKINS, WHAT-? BUT YOU'RE MAKING THATA QUESTION AS IF THAT ITSELF CORRELATES TO GOOD EDUCATION. CHRIS HIPKINS, I'LL BRING YOU IN HERE, THEN. WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF TEACHERS AND PAYING GOOD TEACHERS MORE? OH, IT'S VITALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF TEACHING, AND WE'RE FOCUSED ON WAYS THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY DO THAT. WE'VE GONE OUT- YEAH, BUT WHATABOUT PAYING THE GOOD TEACHERS MORE AS WELL? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? I WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS POLICY? I PAYING A PRINCIPAL, FOR EXAMPLE, AN EXTRA $40,000 A YEAR TO SPEND TWO DAYS OUT OF THEIR OWN SCHOOL, TRYING TO SUPERVISE THE WORK OF UP TO 1O OTHER SCHOOLS, ISN'T GOING TO IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF TEACHING. I BUT THAT'S NOTALL OF THE POLICY, I BECAUSE WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT SOME OF THE TEACHERS STAY IN THE CLASSROOM. I MEAN, EVEN THE PPTA LIKE NATIONAL'S POLICY, DON'T THEY? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? THEY THINK IT'S A GOOD POLICY? THERE ARE ASPECTS OF THE POLICY THAT ARE SUPPORTED, INCLUDING THINGS LIKE EXTRA INQUIRY TIME, EXTRA RELEASE TIME. SCHOOLS WILL BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THAT WITH THE EXTRA TEACHING HOURS THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE PROVIDING THEM, IF THAT'S THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO ALLOCATE THOSE. WE'RE ACTUALLY PUTTING A LOT OF THE RESPONSIBILITY BACK INTO THE HANDS OF SCHOOLS, RATHER THAN GOVERNMENT COMING IN AND SAYING, 'WE'RE GONNA IMPOSE A NEW MANAGERIALIST STRUCTURE OVER TOP OF THEM.' WE'RE NOT IMPOSING. WE'VE MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THIS IS AN OPT-IN POLICY, AND IT DOES WORK ON ALL THE REALLY WELL-EVIDENCED AND COMMON SENSE FEEDBACK WE GET - THAT IS THAT TEACHERS LEARN BEST FROM OTHER TEACHERS; THAT NZ HAS A HISTORY OF REALLY GOOD POCKETS OF EXCELLENCE BUT VERY GREAT DIFFICULTY IN GETTING THOSE SPREAD ACROSS THE SYSTEM. THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT. WE ALREADY HAVE A LOT OF RELEASE TIME - 4.5 MILLION HOURS' WORTH PER YEAR WHERE TEACHERS ARE OFTEN OUT OF THE CLASSROOM, DEVELOPING THEIR TEACHING PRACTICE. WHAT THIS INITIATIVE DOES IS MAKE THAT SYSTEMATIC AND LESS AD HOC. YEAH, SO, CHRIS HIPKINS, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE ARGUMENTS. ALL THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT IT IS ABOUT IMPROVING TEACHER QUALITY. YOU'VE EVEN JUST ADMITTED THAT BEFORE. YOUR POLICY IS JUST BASED ON POLL RESULTS, ISN'T IT? PEOPLE LIKE IT. NOT AT ALL. ACTUALLY, THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO IMPROVE TEACHER QUALITY. SO WE'VE LOOKED AT THE EVIDENCE AND THE RESEARCH AS WELL, AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE CAN DO, FOR EXAMPLE, IS RE-ESTABLISH A GOOD SCHOOL ADVISORY SERVICE, COS TEACHERS ACTUALLY KNOW THE AREAS WHERE THEY'RE NOT DOING WELL. MOST CLASSROOM TEACHERS - IF YOU SIT DOWN WITH THEM AND SAY, WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO IMPROVE YOUR SKILLS ON?' - THEY'LL BE ABLE TO TELL YOU THAT. BUT THERE'S NO PROACTIVE SUPPORT AVAILABLE FOR THEM, BECAUSE THIS GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY CUT THE FUNDING FOR SCHOOLADVISORY SERVICES AND JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING OTHER THAN LITERACY AN D NU MERACY. AND ACTUALLY, SCIENCE AND THE ARTS- AND JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING OTHER THAN LITERACY AN D NU MERACY. AND ACTUALLY, SCIENCE AND THE ARTS- LET'S PICK UP ON SCHOOL FUNDING, COS THAT- AND ACTUALLY, SCIENCE AND THE ARTS- LET'S PICK UP ON SCHOOL ...COS WE WANNA TALK ABOUT THAT. DO WE HAVE A FREE EDUCATION SYSTEM? AND, CHRIS HIPKINS, YOU GO FIRST. WE SHOULD HAVE A FREE EDUCATION SYSTEM. DO WE HAVE ONE? EDUCATION SYSTEM. DO WE HAVE ONE? WE DON'T AT THE MOMENT. HEKIA PARATA, DO WE HAVE A FREE EDUCATION SYSTEM? THE GOVERNMENT FUNDS 100% OF THE NZ CURRICULUM. AT $10.1 BILLION, THAT'S THE HIGHEST EVER THAT'S BEEN INVESTED IN EDUCATION. OK, SO WHY ARE PARENTS PAYING UP TO $300 IN DONATIONS OR FEES TO THEIR SCHOOLS? I n' HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE THAT- I $350 MILLION IN TOTAL, IT'S ESTIMATED, ACTUALLY PAID IN FEES AND DONATIONS ON THE SUPPOSEDLY FREE EDUCATION SYSTEM. BASED ON SCHOOLS' OWN REPORTING IN THE 2013 YEAR, 1.8% WERE DONATIONS THAT WENT INTO OUR ENTIRE EDUCATION SYSTEM. $350 MILLION. 1.8% IS QUITE A LOT OF THE WHOLE ENTIRE EDUCATION SYSTEM. WELL, NO, IT'S LESS THAN THAT, BUTI CAN'T REMEMBER THE FIGURE, AND I DON'T WANT TO BE INACCURATE, BUT IT IS LESS THAN THAT. THE POINT IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT FUNDS 100% OF THE CURRICULUM. IF PARENTS IN A COMMUNITY WANT ADDITIONAL THINGS, THATS SOMETHING THEY NEGOTIATE WITH THEIR SCHOOL, AND IF THAT IS THE CASE, THEN THATS WHAT DONATIONS MEAN. BUT THEY AREN'T REQUIRED TO PAY FOR THOSE. I THINK IT IS UNREASONABLE TO EXPECT THAT FOR CHOICES OVER AND ABOVE 100% OF THE CURRICULUM SHOULD SOMEHOW BE PAID BY ALL TAXPAYERS. THOSE ARE SCHOOL COMMUNITY BY SCHOOL COMMUNITY CHOICES. CHRIS HIPKINS, DONATIONS ONLY COVER THE BASICS. LOOK, I THINK THE STARK REALITY IS THAT SCHOOL FUNDING HASN'TACTUALLY KEPT UP WITH THE COST OF DELIVERING THE CURRICULUM, AND THAT IS WHY SCHOOLS ARE RELIANT MORE ON DONATIONS I THAN THEY HAVE BEEN m THE PAST. I BILL ENGLISH ACTUALLY DECRIED THIS ISSUE WHEN HE WAS IN OPPOSITION AND HE WAS THE OPPOSITION SPOKESPERSON FOR EDUCATION, BASICALLY SAYING THAT GOVERNMENT FUNDING WASN'T KEEPING UP, AND IT WAS ALL DOWN TO MUM AND DAD NOW TO PROP UP SCHOOLS. THAT PROBLEMS GOT WORSE SINCE- AND IT WAS ALL DOWN TO MUM AND DAD NOW TO PROP UP SCHOOLS. THAT PROBLEMS GOT WORSE SINCE- NO, THAT PROBLEM HASN'T GOT WORSE. NO, HANG ON A MINUTE. IT HAS GOT WORSE. NO, THAT PROBLEM HASN'T GOT WORSE. NO, HANG ON A MINUTE. IT HAS GOT WORSE. WE HAVE PUT $600 MILLION NET NEW DOLLARS INTO OPERATIONAL GRANTS OVER THE LAST SIX BUDGETS. THEY HAVE EITHER BEEN IN LINE WITH INFLATION OR AHEAD OF IT. SO, ACTUALLY, WE HAVE CORRECTED THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE. SO WHYARE PARENTS PAYING MORE IN DONATIONS IF THAT'S THE CASE? BECAUSE PARENTS ARE HIGHLY ASPIRATIONAL PEOPLE, AND THEY WANT MORE FOR THEIR CHILDREN, AND MY POINT IS NOT TO STOP THAT HAPPENING, BUT FOR THAT TO BE A DISCUSSION BETWEEN THEIR SCHOOL BOARD AND SCHOOL ABOUT WHAT ARE THOSE ADDITIONAL THINGS THAT THEY WANT TO HAPPEN. BUT THAT IS PUTTING ENORMOUS PRESSURE ON PARENTS, AND IF YOU GO TO LOW-DECILE SCHOOLS, THEY MIGHT BE ASKING PARENTS FOR, SAY, A $30 A YEAR DONATION AND THEN COLLECTING IN ABOUT 30% OF THAT. IF YOU GO TO A WEALTHIER SCHOOL, THEY MIGHT BE ASKING FOR A $300 A YEAR DONATION, AND THEY'LL BE COLLECTING IN THE VAST BULK OF IT. IT'S HUGELY UNFAIR TO SAY THAT PARENTS SHOULD BE RELIED UPON TO FUND THE COST OF EDUCATION. WE HAVE A FREE EDUCATION SYSTEM; THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD FUND A FREE EDUCATION SYSTEM. THE GOVERNMENT, AT $10.1 BILLION- THAT IS A 45% INCREASE ON WHAT IT WAS IN 2008. AND ALL OF THE OPERATIONAL GRANTS, WHICH IS THE DISCRETIONARY AMOUNT THAT SCHOOLS HAVE TO SPEND, HAVE BEEN IN LINE WITH OR SLIGHTLY AHEAD OF INFLATION. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. I WANTA QUICK-FIRE QUESTION HERE - PERSONAL VIEW. I'LL START WITH YOU, MINISTER. THE SCHOOL YEAR - SHOULD IT START LATER SO THAT KIDS AND FAMILIES CAN ENJOY SOME MORE OF SUMMER? YES OR NO - PERSONAL VIEW. LATER SO THAT KIDS AND FAMILIES CAN ENJOY SOME MORE OF SUMMER? YES OR NO - PERSONAL VIEW. WELL, THE START DATE, FACTUALLY, OF A SCHOOL IS UP TO A SCHOOL, AND- I CHRIS HIPKINS, I'LL MOVE ON TO YOU. I DO YOU HAVE A PERSONAL VIEW ON WHETHER THE SCHOOL YEAR SHOULD START LATER? I'D LEAVE THAT UP TO SCHOOLS, QUITE FRANKLY. START LATER? I'D LEAVE THAT UP TO SCHOOLS, QUITE FRANKLY. IT IS LEFT UP TO SCHOOLS. BOTH OF YOU DON'T HAVE A VIEW ON SOMETHING THAT PARENTS AND TEACHERS- NO, NO, BECAUSE- BOTH OF YOU DON'T HAVE A VIEW ON SOMETHING THAT PARENTS AND TEACHERS- NO, NO, BECAUSE- WE'LL MOVE ON, WE'LL MOVE ON. YOU HAD A CHANCE. CHARTER SCHOOLS. CHARTER SCHOOLS. VANGUARD SCHOOLARE ONE OF THE NEW CHARTER SCHOOLS. ITS ROLL'S DROPPED FROM 104 TO 93 STUDENTS ALREADY, JUST AFTER TWO TERMS. WHAT'S GOING ON IN THERE, HEKIA PARATA? WHAT'S GOING WRONG? FIRST OF ALL, ANY SCHOOL, WHATEVER KIND, IN IT'S FIRST YEAR, DOES HAVE A VARIABLE- WHATS GOING WRONG AT VANGUARD SCHOOL? ...DOES HAVE AVARIABLE ROLL. I DON'T THINK ANYTHING'S GOING WRONG AT VANGUARD SCHOOL. I VISITED THE SCHOOL, I'VE MET WITH THE STUDENTS, I'VE MET WITH THE STAFF, AND WHAT I HEAR FROM THE STUDENTS THERE IS THAT THEYARE VERY HAPPY, THAT THEYARE LEARNING IN WAYS THAT MEET THEIR NEEDS. A NUMBER OF THE KIDS THERE HAVE BEEN EXCLUDED OR STOOD DOWN FROM A RANGE OF OTHER SCHOOLS. THOSE KIDS GO THERE BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO GO THERE. NO ONE IS COMPELLED TO GO TO THAT SCHOOL OR ANY OTHER OF THE PARTNERSHIP SCHOOLS. BUT, CHRIS, YOU'RE GOING TO SHUT THEM DOWN? YOU'RE GONNA SHUT DOWN CHARTER SCHOOLS? WE DON'T NEED THE MODEL OF CHARTER SCHOOLS. THEY DON'T HAVE TO EMPLOY REGI- WE DON'T NEED THE MODEL ol= CHARTER so YOU'LL SHUT THEM DOWN? HE: WE DON'T NEED THE MODEL OF CHARTER SO YOU'LL SHUT THEM DOWN? YES, ABSOLUTELY. SO WHERE DO THESE KIDS GO? BECAUSE WE KNOW AT VANGUARD SCHOOL, THEY'VE GOT DISCIPLINE ISSUES. AND THEY GO THERE BECAUSE IT HAS MILITARY-STYLE DISCIPLINE. WHERE DO THEY GO UNDER LABOUR? WE'VE SAID WE WILL LOOK AT THAT ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. SOME OF THE PEOPLE- BUT WHERE WOULD THE KIDS GO? THAT ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. SOME OF THE PEOPLE- BUT WHERE WOULD THE KIDS GO? WELL, I'M ABOUT TO TELL YOU. JUST HOLD YOUR BREATH FOR A SECOND. SOME OF THE PEOPLE WANTING TO ESTABLISH CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE ACTUALLY TRYING TO FILL A GENUINE GAP IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, AND WE'LL WORK WITH THEM TO ENSURE THEY CAN DO THAT WITHIN THE EXISTING STATE SCHOOL FRAMEWORK, BECAUSE THERE ARE OPTIONS FOR THEM WITHIN THE EXISTING STATE SCHOOL FRAMEWORK. BUT THE CHARTER SCHOOL LEGISLATION ALLOWS SCHOOL TO MAKE A PROFIT, BE SET UPAS PROFIT- SO SOME CHARTER SCHOOLS COULD BECOME STATE SCHOOLS? IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THEY COULD BE INTEGRATED INTO THE SYSTEM OR THEY COULD WORK WITHIN THE EXISTING STATE SCHOOL FRAMEWORK. BE INTEGRATED INTO THE SYSTEM HERE'S ANOTHER QUICK-FIRE QUESTION. TRYAND DO BETTER THIS TIME, PLEASE. YES OR NO - DESTINY CHURCH WANTS ITS FUNDING TO BE INTEGRATED AND WANTS TAXPAYER FUNDING. SHOULD IT GET IT? CHRIS HIPKINS, YES OR NO? ANY MINISTER OF EDUCATION WOULD HAVE TO CONSIDER AN INTEGRATION PROPOSAL BASED ON- HEKIA PARATA, YES OR NO? SHOULD DESTINY-? BY LAW, WE HAVE TO CONSIDER ANY PROPOSAL MADE. OK, SO YOU FAILED TO ANSWER THAT QUICK-FIRE AS WELL. ANY PROPOSAL MADE. IT WOULD ACTUALLY LAND UP THE GOVERNMENT IN COURT IF EITHER OF US MADE A DECISION ON THATAPPLICATION BEFORE IT'S EVEN BEEN SEEN, AND THEN THE TAXPAYER WOULD END UP PAYING FOR THAT THROUGH A JUDICIAL REVIEW. IT WOULD BE IRRESPONSIBLE TO DO THAT. THAT THROUGH A JUDICIAL REVIEW. IT WOULD BE IRRESPONSIBLE TO DO THAT. NATIONAL STANDARDS. HEKIA PARATA. READING, WRITING, COUNTING, ALL IMPORTANT, BUT THIS IS THE 21ST CENTURY. WHERE'S THE SCIENCE? WHY ISN'T SCIENCE UP THERE AS A PRIORITY? NATIONAL STANDARDS ARE A WAY OF REPORTING HOW THE SYSTEM AS A WHOLE IS DOING. WHEN YOU GO TO THE GP AND YOU HAVE YOUR PULSE TAKEN AND YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE TAKEN, NEITHER YOU NOR SHE THINKS THAT'S GONNA FIX YOUR SORE EAR OR YOUR HEART OR YOUR FOOT. IT'S A WAY OF GETTING A HANDLE ON THE UNDERLYING SYSTEM. BUT IT'S NOT WHOLE; IT'S THREE THINGS. UNDERLYING SYSTEM. BUT IT'S NOT WHOLE; IT'S THREE THINGS. THAT'S WHAT NATIONAL STANDARDS DOES. IT'S AWAY OF UNDERSTANDING WHETHER THE SYSTEM AS AWHOLE IS WORKING, AND, ACTUALLY, SUCCESSFUL TEACHING IS A RICH, CROSS-CURRICULUM, CO-CURRICULUM PROGRAMME. I WITH THREE THINGS m IT. I CHRIS HIPKINS, YOU'D SCRAP NATIONAL STANDARDS. WHAT WOULD YOU REPLACE IT WITH? KIDS ARE OVER-ASSESSED IN OUR SCHOOLS. WITH? KIDS ARE OVER-ASSESSED IN OUR SCHOOLS. WHAT WOULD YOU REPLACE IT WITH? THERE ARE FANTASTIC EXAMPLES OF HOW SCHOOLS CAN REPORT INFORMATION TO PARENTS ALREADY, WITHOUT NATIONAL STANDARDS. NATIONAL STANDARDS AREN'T NATIONAL NOR ARE THEY STANDARD. ACROSS THE COUNTRY. THEY'RE NO GOOD THEY'RE same IMPLEMENTED VARIABLY 1 MEASURE OF STUDENT PROGRESS AT ALL. THEY'RE GETTING BETTER, AND I THINK IT'S REALLY DISRESPECTFUL TO TEACHERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING REALLY HARD WITH THE CURRICULUM, ENSURING THAT THE ASSESSMENT TOOLS THEY USE- AND, BY THE WAY, THERE'S NO NATIONAL TEST. IT'S A HIGH-TRUST MODEL. IT RELIES ON TEACHERS' OWN JUDGEMENTAS TO HOW WELL THEIR KIDS ARE DOING. THATS THE INFORMATION WE RELY ON. IT'S THE HIGHEST-TRUST MODEL IN THE WORLD. I HERE'S A QUICK-FIRE QUESTION. I TE REO MAORI m SCHOOL. TE REO MAORI m SCHOOLS. YES OR NO - CHRIS IIIEEIIB NOT COMPULSORY, BUT I SUPPORT IT BEING MORE VVIDELY AVAILABLE. NOT COMPULSORY, BUT I SUPPORT IT BEING MORE WIDELYAVAILABLE. NOT COMPULSORY, NO. OK, COMPUTERS IN SCHOOLS. CHRIS HIPKINS, HOW LONG WOULD ONE OF THOSE STUDENTS HAVE, UNDER LABOUR'S POLICY, A FREE LAPTOP? FROM YEAR FIVE ONWARDS, THEY WOULD HAVE ACCESS. IT WOULDN'T BE FREE, BECAUSE WE'D BE ASKING PARENTS TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION. BUT HOW MANY YEARS DO THEY KEEP IT FOR? WELL, THEY COULD REPLACE ITAFTER A COUPLE OF YEARS. I MEAN, THE MODEL IS BASED ON- YOU PAY FOR THE REPLACEMENT OR IS THAT FREE TOO? IS BASED ON- YOU PAY FOR THE REPLACEMENT OR IS THAT FREE TOO? WELL, NONE OF IT'S FREE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE MANAIAKALANI MODEL, WHICH IS WHAT WE'VE BASED OUR POLICY ON, THE KIDS GET THE DEVICE, THEIR PARENTS MAKE A SMALL PAYMENT ON A WEEKLY BASIS I To HELP PAY OFF THE COST OF rr. I AFTERA PERIOD OF TIME, IT'S PAID OFF, AND THEN IF THE SCHOOLAND THE PARENTS WANT TO UPGRADE TO GETA NEW DEVICE, THEN THAT'S AN OPTION AS WELL. LAST QUICK-FIRE QUESTION. WHAT WAS YOUR FAVOURITE SUBJECTAT SCHOOL, HEKIA PARATA? I ENGLISH. I CHRIS HIPKINS? ENGLISH. CHRIS HIPKINS? YEAH, I'D PROBABLY SAY HISTORY, ACTUALLY. OK, YOU ACTUALLY DID ONE. ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, GUYS. AHEAD ON THE NATION - TORBEN AKEL REVIEWS THE FIRST WEEKEND OF THE CAMPAIGN PROPER, AND OUR PANEL COMES ALONG, BUT FIRST, THESE GUYS. THERE YOU Go, PAUL. THAT'S FROM TWO WONGS CAFE. THERE YOU GO, PAUL. THATS FROM TWO WONGS CAFE. WHAT'S THAT? THERE YOU GO, PAUL. THATS FROM TWO WONGS CAFE. WHAT'S THAT? FLAT WHITE. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK - LABOUR'S NEW HEALTH POLICY. WHAT'S- I TELL YOU WHAT, IF YOU'RE A 65-YEAR-OLD TODDLER WHO'S EXPECTING A BABY, YOU ARE WINNING. ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE SICK. IT'S AWESOME. PAUL, THE RULES WERE QUITE CLEAR BEFORE WE STARTED - NO INTERRUPTING. NOW, DO YOU WANT TO LEAVE? NO, I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE. I WANT TO STAY. I JUST DIDN'T THINK THE RULES APPLIED TO ME. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK - IN A CHINESE ELECTION- DO YOU KNOW WHAT EFFIGY SOUNDS LIKE? IN A CHINESE ELECTION- DO YOU KNOW WHAT EFFIGY SOUNDS LIKE? WHAT? THE WORD EFFIGY. I'VE BEEN SAYING IT OVER AND OVER. EFFIGY SOUNDS A BIT LIKE 'F JOHN KEY', DOESN'T IT? EFFlezv. I= KEY'. IT DOES. NO WONDER HE THOUGHT THEY WERE FROM THE SAME PLACE. YEAH. DO YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE SOUNDS LIKE EFFIGY? WHAT? YEAH. DO YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE SOUNDS LIKE EFFIGY? WHAT? DIRTY POLITICS. ELSE SOUNDS LIKE EFFIGY? I DON'T THINK THAT BOOK'S ANY GOOD. APPARENTLY IT'S BEEN SLATED. I SLATERED. I I COLIN CRAIG. I WHAT ABOUT HIM? COLIN CRAIG. WHATABOUT HIM? NOTHING. JUST THOUGHT WE SHOULD MENTION HIM. WHATABOUT HIM? AH, BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY, EH? WE SHOULD MENTION HIM. WHATABOUT HIM? AH, BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY, EH? TOO RIGHT. BUT IT'S ALREADY BEEN MARRED BY ACCUSATIONS OF CORRUPTION, RACISM, VANDALISM AND THUGGERY. I AND THERE'S STILL FIVE WEEKS TO GO. I SO WHAT WERE THE KEY STORIES AND CORE MESSAGES IN THE FIRST WEEK OF THE CAMPAIGN? HERE'S A WRAP FROM REPORTER TORBEN AKEL. AT LABOUR'S OFFICIAL CAMPAIGN LAUNCH LAST SUNDAY, THERE WAS A SENSE VICTORY MAY NOT BE IMPOSSIBLE, THAT THANKS TO RECENT EVENTS, NATIONAL'S GRIP ON POWER MAY BE SLIPPING. A MILLION HECTARES HAVE BEEN APPROVED FOR OVERSEAS SALE UNDER THIS GOVERNMENT. ANOTHER THREE YEARS, WE'D BE TENANTS IN OUR OWN COUNTRY. IT WASN'T MENTIONED BY NAME, BUT EVERYONE KNEW HE WAS TALKING ABOUT LOCHINVER STATION. AND ACROSS TOWN, ON THE SAME DAY, WINSTON PETERS WAS BEATING THE SAME EEEII SELLING ALMOST 14,000HA TO A CHINESE COMPANY THAT DOESN'T KNOW ONE END OF THE COW FROM ANOTHER IS NOT TRMAL. NOR, HE JOKED, OR TRIED TO, WAS LABOUR'S RECORD ON SUCH SALES ANY BETTER THAN NATIONAL'S. AS THEY SAY IN BEIJING, TWO WONGS DON'T MAKE A WHITE. ANY BETTER THAN NATIONAL'S. AS THEY SAY m BEIJING, TWO WONGS DON'T MAKE AWHITE. I AND HERE IT IS - LOCHINVER STATION. I WELL, THE ENTRANCE TO IT AT LEAST, HERE ON THE NAPIER-TAUPO ROAD. ATRANQUIL SCENE THAT BELIES THE POLITICAL STORM SWIRLING AROUND ITS SALE. AND SURE ENOUGH, PETERS' FIRST STOP ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL WAS 35 K'S UP THE ROAD, IN TAUPO, WHERE HE NOT ONLY ATTACKED THE SALE AT LENGTH, BUTALSO THOSE WHO WERE CRITICISING HIS 'TWO WONGS' JOKE. THE LANGUAGE-NAZIS ARE HAVING A LITTLE FIELD DAY BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE HAVEN'T GOTA SENSE OF HUMOUR. PART AND PARCEL, IT WOULD SEEM, OF A WIDER CONSPIRACY TO SILENCE CRITICS OF FOREIGN BUY-UPS. APN AND FAIRFAX, TWO AUSSIE OUTFITS, CONTROL MASSIVELY THE PRINT MEDIA OF THIS COUNTRY, AND THEY DON'T LIKE ANYBODY WHO SAYS FOREIGN OWNERSHIP IS BAD. AND WHILE NATIONAL WAS DISMISSING LABOUR'S PROMISE TO EXTEND FREE HEALTHCARE AS TOO COSTLY, PETERS WAS ACCUSING LABOUR OF PLAGIARISING HIS POLICY. I KNOW IMITATION IS THE MOST SINCERE FORM OF FLATFERY. BUTAS JOHN WAYNE ONCE SAID, 'IT'S ONE THING TO STEALA MAN'S HORSE; 'IT'S QUITE SOMETHING ELSE, TRYING TO STAY ON ITS BACK.' ONE THING TO STEALA MAN'S HORSE; AFTERWARDS, HE DENIED LABOUR'S SIMILAR POLICIES ON LAND SALES AND HEALTHCARE COULD MAKE THEM A BETTER COALITION-FIT THAN NATIONAL. THEY'RE BOTH AS BAD AS EACH OTHER WHEN IT CAME TO FLOGGING OFF THIS COUNTRY'S ASSETS, SO PLEASE DON'T ALIGN US WITH EITHER OF THOSE PEOPLE, COS THAT'S NOT OUR RECORD. MEANWHILE, CUNLIFFE'S FIRST PUBLIC OUTINGS WERE IN TWO MARGINAL SEATS - FIRST, MAUNGAKIEKIE, IN SOUTH-CENTRAL AUCKLAND... I HAVE YOU HAD ANY WINNERS LATELY? I ...THEN TO PALMERSTON NORTH, WHERE MP IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY IS FACING OFF AGAINST THE CITY'S MAYOR. WE MET CUNLIFFE AND LEES~GALLOWAY AT A CAFE AND WERE SOON REMINDED OF ONE OF CUNLIFFE'S WEAK-POINTS- I r-us DIFFICULTY wm-a NUMBERS. I AND SO DAVID IS THIS YOUR FIRST COFFEE OF THE DAY? SECOND? THIRD? HIS DIFFICULTY WITH NUMBERS. AND SO DAVID IS THIS YOUR FIRST COFFEE OF THE DAY? SECOND? THIRD? UH, IT WOULD BE MY... I YOU WANT AN HONEST ANSWER? I SECOND. YOU WANT AN HONEST ANSWER? SECOND. SECOND, AND YOU'RE, UH- > WELL, THAT DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU CONSIDER IN-FLIGHT COFFEE ON AIR NZ TO BE COFFEE. I NO. No- I IF THAT WERE TRUE, IT WOULD BE MY THIRD. HE SAYS HE PREFERS HIS COFFEE BLACK BECAUSE HE'S WATCHING HIS WEIGHT DURING THE CAMPAIGN. NO CUPS AFTER MIDDAY, THOUGH, BUT NOT BECAUSE HE'S LOSING ANY SLEEP. HELEN CLARK TAUGHT ME WHAT YOU CAN'T CHANGE, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. JUST GO TO BED AND GO TO SLEEP AND HAVE A CRACK AT IT THE NEXT DAY. OF COURSE, WHAT HE NEEDS TO CHANGE MOST IS THE LOW OPINION MOST VOTERS HAVE OF HIM. SINCE BECOMING LABOUR'S LEADER 11 MONTHS AGO, HE'S AVERAGED JUST 10% AS PREFERRED PRIME MINISTER IN THE 3 NEWS POLLS. ON THAT, THOUGH, HE CLAIMS TO BE UNFAZED. I THINK THERE'S STILLA LOT OF TIME FOR NZERS TO GET TO KNOW ME. I'VE DONE A LOT MORE PERSONAL MEDIA IN THE LAST WEE WHILE, AND, UH, IT'S ONWARDS AND UPWARDS FROM HERE. THERE'S A LOT OF TALK THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE X-FACTOR, THAT YOU'RE TRYING TOO HARD. HOWARE YOU GONNA PROVE TO THEM THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE? > TRYING TOO HARD. HOWARE YOU GONNA PROVE TO THEM THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE? > I'M JUST GONNA RELAX. JUST ENJOY THIS. I ENJOY THIS. I ENJOY GETTING OUT OF THE BELTWAY BUBBLE. I AM JUST LITERALLY RELAXING INTO I ENJOY BEING AMONG REAL PEOPLE. SO I THIS AND HAVING FUN. SIMPLE AS THAT. I ENJOY BEING AMONG REAL PEOPLE. SO YOU'RE JUST BEING YOURSELF? THIS AND HAVING FUN. SIMPLE AS THAT. I ENJOY BEING AMONG REAL PEOPLE. SO YOU'RE JUST BEING YOURSELF? DO YOU HAVE TOO MANY PEOPLE WHISPERING IN YOUR EAR, TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO? LNO.l HOWEVER, THE NATION UNDERSTANDS FROM A WELL-PLACED SOURCE THAT THAT IS INDEED AN ISSUE, THAT 'TOO MANY PEOPLE THINK THEY OWN LABOUR AND WANT TO GIVE CUNLIFFE THEIR ADVICE.' OF COURSE, IF THATS HIS BIGGEST PROBLEM RIGHT NOW, IT'S NO WONDER HE'S SLEEPING OK. AS FOR NATIONAL, IT'S BEEN A NIGHTMARISH WEEK. IMETALLICAQENTERSABIDMAN' I THEY ARE THE ONES PROMOTING IT. IT'S INTERNET MANA. <i>Ill'</i> ISA <i>us. I</i> YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ. I ABUSE OF POWER. I <i>I</i> "n-ns us APPALLING. <i>I</i> I DIRTY, UNDERHAND TACTICS. I I NOTHING TO 0o WITH MY OFFICE. I I NOTHING TO 0o WITH us I NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NATIONAL PARTY. NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NATIONAL PARTY. I NOTHING To no wm-a ME. I I TYPICAL NICKY HAGER BOOK. I I FULL OF BASELESS ALLEGATIONS. I < WELL, HE'S GOTA BUNCH OF EMAILS. FULL OF BASELESS ALLEGATIONS. < WELL, HE'S GOTA BUNCH OF EMAILS. OH WELL. JASON EDE HASN'T BEEN A PRESS SECRETARY FOR SIX YEARS. YOU STAND BY HIS ACTIONS? > SECRETARY FOR SIX YEARS. YOU STAND BY r-us ACTIONS? > HAS THE SHINE WORN OFF BRAND KEY... FROM THIS? LNO.l THAT MAY BE SO. KEY'S SUIT OF ARMOUR MAY STILL BE SHINING BRIGHT, BUT FIVE WEEKS OUT FROM THE ELECTION, CHINKS ARE CERTAINLY STARTING TO APPEAR. SO IS TEAM KEY IN TROUBLE BEFORE NATIONAL EVEN OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES ITS CAMPAIGN? TO ANSWER THAT, I'M JOINED BY PADDY, ALONG WITH POLITICAL COMMENTATORS JOSIE PAGANI AND MATTHEW HOOTON. GOOD MORNING TO YOU. JOSIE, CAN I COME TO YOU FIRST? THIS BOOK, HOW DAMAGING IS IT? BECAUSE IS THERE REALLY A SMOKING GUN THAT POINTS TO JOHN KEY? I THINK THERE'S GONNA BE A PROBLEM TRYING TO FIND ILLEGALITY HERE. I DON'T THINK IT'S WATERGATE, BUT I DO THINK THAT THERE ARE TWO THINGS - ONE, IT'S GOING TO TURN OFF PEOPLE GENERALLY FROM POLITICS, AND THAT'S ALWAYS GOOD FOR THE RIGHT. A LOW TURNOUT, SO PEOPLE GO 'I DON'T WANT TO VOTE; A PLAGUE ON ALL THEIR HOUSES', THATS GONNA BE BAD FOR THE LEFT. BUT I DO THINK THAT INTERVIEW WITH CAMERON SLATER... AND THE LACK OF COMFORTABLENESS THAT THE PM HAS SHOWN THIS WEEK WHEN ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS... STEVN JOYCE AS WELL, WHO FAILED BY A MILE TO DEFEND JUDITH COLLINS ON TV THIS WEEK. CAMERON SOUNDED DEFENSIVE, AND I THOUGHT THAT, WHILE EVERYBODY'S DENYING IT - JUDITH COLLINS, THE PRIME MINISTER - NO ONE'S ACTUALLY DENYING WRITING THESE EMAILS, AND I THINK THERE'S MORE SUBSTANCE HERE. THERE'S STILL ISSUES TO ANSWER ABOUT THE SIS DOCUMENT; DID JUDITH COLLINS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT? DID THE PRIME MINISTER HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT? AND I THINK THIS IS GONNA GO ON AND ON UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT DO SOMETHING. LET'S GET INTO SOME OF THAT SUBSTANCE. MATTHEW HOOTON, JUDITH COLLINS HAS SAID THAT SHE GAVE THIS NAME TO CAMERON SLATER. IS THAT APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOUR FOR A MINISTER TO RELEASE A NAME LIKE THAT, I WONDER? WHETHER OR NOT IT'S APPROPRIATE, IT'S NOT UNCOMMON. POLITICS HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY DIRTY BUSINESS. WE SEE ALL THESE THINGS IN THE INTERNET NOW, AND THE NEWS CYCLE IS MUCH FASTER, BUT THIS ISN'TAS DIRTYAS THE COLIN MOYLE AFFAIR IN THE 19708. I MEAN, THAT WAS REALLY DIRTY. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING NEWABOUT DIRTY POLITICS. I THINK THE TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE BEING USED ARE NEW AND FASTER. PADDY, JOHN KEY SAYS HE'S NOT EVEN GONNA TAKE A LOOK AT JUDITH COLLINS ON THIS BECAUSE HE'S TAKING HER WORD THAT SHE BEHAVED APPROPRIATELY. IS HE LOOKING RATTLED? DOES HE NEED TO HAVE A LOOK AT MINISTER COLLINS? UH. JOHN KEY LOOKS RATTLED. HE NEEDS TO HAVE A LOOK PROBABLY AT ALL OF IT, BUT HE'S NOT GOING TO, BECAUSE WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, AND HE IS NOT GOING TO TAKE A BACKWARDS STEP, JUST LIKE THE OPPOSITION AREN'T GOING TO TAKE A BACKWARDS STEP, AND IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A SMOKING GUN, IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER RIGHT NOW WITH SIX WEEKS TO GO. WHAT YOU'VE GOT IS A MUD SCREEN ORA SMOKESCREEN, AND THE SIMPLE FACTS OF THE MATTER ARE THIS - BRAND KEY DOES NOT WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH BRAND WHALE OIL. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THE DOTS CAN BE CONNECTED OR NOT IN TIME. HE WANTS TO BE OUT KISSING BABIES AND DOING PHOTO OPS WITH PETER JACKSON. HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE STANDING IN DUNEDIN, HAVING QUESTIONS FIRED AT HIM LEFT RIGHTAND CENTRE. YOU'VE GOTTA LOOK AT IT LIKE THIS - THIS IS CENTRE-RIGHT POLITICS. JOHN KEY IS THE ULTIMATE BRAND. HE'S DOM PERIGNON; CAMERON SLATER IS DB DRAUGHT. THEY'RE BOTH TRYING TO GET TO THE SAME POINT. JOHN KEY'S THE GOOD VERSION, AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO BE SAT UP THERE WITH CAMERON SLATER. BUT I THINK WHAT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT THAT, PADDY, WAS DID YOU HEAR PHIL GOFF ACTUALLY CALLED THE PRIME MINISTERA LIAR? AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE JOHN KEY IS VULNERABLE, BECAUSE WITH THE WEBSITE STUFF, AT THE TIME - THIS WAS A FEW YEARS AGO - MY HUSBAND WAS THE ONE WHO WROTE THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE ABOUT THAT, JOINING THE DOTS AND SAYING, 'OOH, THE NATIONAL PARTY WAS HERE. THE IPADDRESSES GO RIGHT BACK TO THE NATIONAL PARTY.' WELL, AT THE TIME, THE NATIONAL PARTYAND THE PRIME MINISTER CATEGORICALLY DENIED THAT THE NATIONAL PARTY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH GOING INTO THE LABOUR WEBSITE. I DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THAT'S TRUE. I HE CONTINUES TO DENY IT. JOHN KEY DENIED ITAGAIN THIS WEEK. IS IT OK TO HAVE YOUR RIGHT-HAND MAN DELVING AROUND INTO THE WEBSITE AND DOWNLOADING MATERIAL? JASON EDE IS NOT THE RIGHT-HAND MAN. JASON EDE IS QUITE LOW DOWN IN THE HIERARCHY. JASON EDE IS NOT THE RIGHT-HAND MAN. JASON EDE IS QUITE LOW DOWN IN THE HIERARCHY. HE'S IN THE HIERARCHY, THOUGH. IN THE HIERARCHY, HE'S BEEN THERE IN THE YEARS, PAID FOR, UP UNTIL THIS YEAR, BY THE TAXPAYER- BECAUSE WE DO HAVE STATE FUNDING OF POLITICAL PARTIES, WHETHER WE WANT IT OR NOT. THROUGH PARLIAMENTARY SERVICES, BOTH THE LEADER OF NATIONAL PARTY, THE LEADER OF THE GREEN PARTY- SO IS IT OK FOR HIM? HE'S PART OF THE NATIONAL PARTY. WAS IT OK FOR HIM TO BE DOING THAT? THAT IS A QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN LOOKED INTO, I UNDERSTAND, BY THE POLICE, BY THE LABOUR PARTY'S LAWYERS, AND THEY HAVE FOUND NO ILLEGALITY. THE LABOUR PARTY DID HAVE THAT INFORMATION ON THEIR WEBSITE. I MEAN, THEY WERE NEGLIGENT IN THAT SENSE. IT'S A LITTLE BIT LIKE A SHOP WINDOW. I KNOW METIRIA USED THE HOUSE METAPHOR, BUT IT'S LIKE A SHOP WINDOW THAT'S A PUBLIC SHOP WINDOW. IT'S A PUBLIC WEBSITE. AND SOME INFORMATION ABOUT DONORS AND CREDIT CARDS WAS LEFT OPEN AND EASY TO SEE, AND THE NATIONAL PARTY, CLEARLY, AND CAMERON SLATER SAW IT. SO IT'S THE TAKING OF IT. IT'S THE TAKING OF THAT INFORMATION ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANKS TO OUR PANEL. WE'RE BACK IN A MOMENT WITH SOME MORE. 3 NEWS POLITICAL EDITOR PADDY GOWER AND POLITICAL COMMENTATORS MATTHEW HOOTON AND JOSIE PAGANI. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE LEGALITY OF GOING INTO SOMEONE'S COMPUTER; WHAT ABOUT THE MORALITY? IF YOU HEARD THAT NATIONAL'S WEBSITE WAS OPEN, WOULD YOU HAVE A SNOOP, JOSIE? YES. ABSOLUTELY, AND SO WOULD MATTHEW. IN FACT, HE'D DO MORE THAN SNOOP. BUT WHERE IS THE LINE, DO WE THINK? IS IT WHEN YOU START DOWNLOADING STUFF? NO. IF THE NATIONAL PARTY FOOLISHLY PUT ITS DONATION LIST ON ITS WEBSITE, THE LABOUR PARTY'S GONNA DOWNLOAD THAT INSTANTLY, AND THEY'RE GONNA USE IT IN POLITICS IMMEDIATELY. THEY'RE GONNA IMMEDIATELY LEAK IT TO PADDY. I THINK THIS IS THE ISSUE, LISA, THAT DIRTY POLITICS HAPPENS ACROSS THE BOARD. IT'S TRUE. NOW, WHAT WE'VE SEEN HERE IN THIS BOOK IS A NOTCH ABOVE THE NORMAL - THE SORT OF ENTRAPMENT STUFF, THE FASCINATION WITH THE SEXUAL LIVES OF POLITICIANS AND JOURNALISTS. THE SORT OF ENTRAPMENT STUFF, THE THAT'S PRETTY NASTY. OF POLITICIANS AND JOURNALISTS. THE SORT OF ENTRAPMENT STUFF, THE THAT'S PRETTY NASTY. < IS ITA NOTCH ABOVE? NO, IT'S NOTA NOTCH ABOVE. THERE'S BEEN MUCH WORSE THINGS IN THE PAST. WHAT WAS PETE HODGSON ALL ABOUT? HE WAS THE MASTER OF THE DARK ARTS FOR THE LABOUR PARTY. THERE'S ALL SORTS OF DIRTY TRICKS. RICHARD WORTH WAS BROUGHT DOWN BY WHAT LOOKED LIKE A HONEY TRAP. THE RIGHT IS AS RELENTLESS AND VILE AT USING THE BLOGS TO ATTACK THE LABOUR PARTY AS THE LEFT, COS THE LEFT BLOGS DO IT TOO. THIS IS THE IRONY OF IT. YEAH, IT GOES LIKE THIS - IF THERE WAS FIVE YEARS OF LABOUR PARTY INTERNAL EMAILS LEAKED, YOU'D HAVE A BOOK THE SAME SIZE WITH SIMILAR SORT OF THINGS COMING OUT ABOUT THEM. THATS THE WAY THAT DIRTY POLITICS WORK. NO SIDE IS CLEAN. DO PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS? SITTING AT HOME, DO THEY CARE? IS IT GONNA INFLUENCE THEM AT THE POLLS? HAVE THEY HAD ENOUGH OF THIS KIND OF STUFF? I THINK THE PROBLEM, AS I SAID, IS THAT THIS COULD TURN PEOPLE OFF POLITICS GENERALLY, AND SO IT'S 'A PLAGUE ON ALL YOUR HOUSES', AND THAT IS A DISASTER FOR THE LEFT BECAUSE LOW TURNOUT SUITS THE RIGHT. IN FACT, IN THE BOOK, SIMON LUSK SAYS THAT EXACTLY. HE SAYS, 'LOW TURNOUTS GREAT FOR THE RIGHT. THAT'S WHY WE DO IT.' I THINK THERE WAS NO SURPRISE EARLIER THIS WEEK THAT THERE WAS A SUPER MOON OR WHATEVER, BECAUSE IT TURNED POLITICS INTO A WHOLE LOT OF WEREWOLVES THIS WEEK WITH BURNING EFFIGIES AND THE 'F YOU' CHANT AND DESECRATION OF BILLBOARDS. MATTHEW, DO YOU THINK PEOPLE DO WANT BETTER? THEY'RE INTERESTED IN THIS STUFF. NO, THE STUFF THAT ALWAYS IS TOP OF THE RATINGS FOR TVS OR ON THE NZ HERALD OR STUFF WEBSITE ARE THE SCANDALS. THEY'RE THE THINGS THAT RATE BETTER. THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT THE PUBLIC IS INTERESTED IN, FAR MORE THAN THE LATEST EDUCATION NATIONAL STANDARDS DEBATE. MY FAVOURITE TWEET OF THE WEEK WAS SOMEBODY FROM OVERSEAS TWEETING, SAYING 'CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE TO FIND THE POLICY DEBATES IN THE ELECTION. I CAN'T SEEM TO FIND THEM.' AND SOMEONE HAD TWEETED UNDERNEATH, 'OH, WE HAVEN'T GOT TO THAT BIT YET.' I I THINK NZERS WANT BETTER THAN THIS. I THIS WEEK WAS ACTUALLY- IT MIGHT NOT BE THE DIRTIEST WEEK EVER OR WHATEVER, BUT I THINK IT WAS PRETTY SCARY WHERE SOME OF THE THINGS WERE GOING. THERE'S PROBABLY SOME REASONS FOR THAT, THAT THE POLICIES, THERE AREN'T A HUGE AMOUNT OF DMDE OUT THERE, AND ALSO THE DESPERATION TO GET TO BRAND KEY HAS SEEN A LOT OF THIS TEMPERATURE RAISE, AND WASN'T IT IRONIC THAT THE MOST DAMAGING THING TO BRAND KEY HAS ACTUALLY BEEN SITTING, PERHAPS, IN HIS OFFICE I FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS - JASON EDE. I THERE IS A NEW ELEMENT IN THIS POLITICAL CAMPAIGN THAT HASN'T BEEN PRESENT BEFORE, AND IT'S THE INTERNET MANA PARTY. AND THEY HAVE BROUGHT SOME DIRT INTO POLITICS THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE WITH THAT EVENT IN CHRISTCHURCH, AND I THINK THEY'VE LOWERED THE TONE OF THE GENERAL POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT. BUT YOU JUST SAID IT'S ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THIS. YEAH, BUT I THINK THERE IS- I THINK THE EFFIGY BURNINGS AND THE CHANTING IS SOMETHING QUITE ANNOYING. I THINK THE RACISM IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE. THERE'S A SORT OF ANTI-SEMITIC TONE. THERE'S A RACIST TONE AGAINST IMMIGRANTS, WHICH ISN'T PARTICULARLY NICE, AND I DO THINK PEOPLE JUST GET TURNED OFF BY THAT. YEAH, I THINK-I DISAGREE WITH MATTHEW. I THINK PEOPLE ARE GETTING TURNED OFF BY IT. PEOPLE... NZ POLITICS IS BIGGER THAN THIS. MATTHEW. I THINK PEOPLE ARE GETTING TURNED OFF BY IT. PEOPLE... NZ POLITICS IS BIGGER THAN THIS. THAT'S WHY WE SHOULD MOVE ON TO DISCUSSING A BIT OF POLICY. I AGREE. TALK ABOUT EDUCATION. YOU'VE HAD A LIFETIME OF DIRTY POLITICS. WE LOVE THIS STUFF. I WANNA KNOW WHO LEAKED IT TO NICKY HAGER, AND WAS IT NATIONAL PARTY? BECAUSE THEY'RE FACTIONAL. LOOK AT THE FACTIONS. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME POLICY. YOU HAD HEKIA PARATA THERE SAYING THAT CLASS SIZES ARE SMALLER; I EDUCATION ls STILL FREE. I I THINK WHAT'S FASCINATING ABOUT THIS IS THAT NATIONAL INVADED LABOUR TERRITORY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR WITH A POLICY, ACTUALLY, THAT THERE ARE SOME PARTS THAT LABOUR WOULD LIKE. UH... GETTING RID OF THE COMPETITION BETWEEN SCHOOLS, MENTOR TEACHERS AND HEY] AND SO WHAT YOU'RE SEEING WITH CHRIS HIPKINS, WHO I THINK HAS BEEN AN EXTRAORDINARILY EFFECTIVE SPOKESMAN FOR EDUCATION FOR LABOUR, IS THAT HE'S PULLING THAT TERRITORY BACK, AND HE'S GONE BACK IN AND SAID, 'NO, WE'LL HAVE THAT BACK, THANKS VERY MUCH.' AND I THINK HE'S COME UP WITH A GOOD POLICY, AND NOW YOU'VE GOT THIS DEBATE BETWEEN CLASS SIZES, QUALITY OF TEACHERS AND SO ON, I AND HE'S WORKED REALLY HARD. I I HEARD A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THE MASTER TEACHERS THATARE GOING TO MENTOR OTHERS ARE GOING TO REMAIN TEACHING IN ONE SCHOOLAND WORK WITH OTHERS OR WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE A SORT OF MINISTRY OF EDUCATION TEACHER ADVISORY SERVICE. IF THAT'S THE BIG POLICY DIFFERENCE BETVVEEN NATIONAL AND LABOUR, NO WONDER PEOPLE ARE MORE INTERESTED IN OTHER THINGS. BUT THERE WAS A COUNCIL OF EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH, UH- I THINK IT WAS JUST SOME RESEARCH PAPER OUTA FEW DAYS AGO SAYING THAT PARENTS CARE MOST ABOUT THE CLASS SIZES AND KEEPING GOOD TEACHERS IN THE CLASSROOM. AND YOUR POLL SHOWED TOO THAT ACTUALLY- GOOD TEACHERS IN THE CLASSROOM. ...LABOUR'S ON TO A WINNER HERE, SO IF THEY STICK TO THAT STUFF, THEY'RE DOING WELL. WE'LL NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE. NOW A QUICK LOOK AT NEXT WEEK'S NEWS. PADDY HAS THE LATEST 3 NEWS REID RESEARCH POLL TONIGHT. ALSO TODAY, THE GREEN PARTY WILL ANNOUNCE A MAJOR ECONOMIC PRIORITY AT THEIR CAMPAIGN LAUNCH. TREASURY GIVES ITS CRITICAL PRE-ELECTION FISCAL UPDATE ON TUESDAY. AND BRACE YOURSELF - POLITICAL PARTIES CAN ADVERTISE ON TV FROM WEDNESDAY. AND AFTER ALL THAT EXCITEMENT, ON THE NATION NEXT WEEK, ARE WE GETTING THE BALANCE RIGHT BETWEEN THE ENVIRONMENTAND ECONOMY? NATIONAL'S AMY ADAMS AND THE GREENS' RUSSEL NORMAN DEBATE. BUT THAT'S ALL FOR US FROM TODAY. NATIONAL'S AMY ADAMS AND THE GREENS' RUSSEL NORMAN DEBATE. BUT THAT'S ALL FOR US FROM TODAY. IT'S BEEN GREAT HAVING YOUR COMPANY, AND HAVE A GOOD WEEK. Captions by Able www.able.co.nz Captions were made possible<br />with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2014