DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF THE VOTE 2014 LEADERS' DEBATE, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. ONE NEWS CAPTIONS BY SHELLEY UPCHURCH AND JUNE YEOW. VOTE 2014 CAPTIONS BY VIRGINIA PHILP AND FINN SCOTT-KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014 GOOD EVENING. WELCOME TO THIS VOTE 2014 LEADERS' DEBATE ` OUR FIRST DEBATE OF THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN ` THE FIRST TIME DAVID CUNLIFFE AND JOHN KEY HAVE COME FACE TO FACE. I'M MIKE HOSKING. A POINT OF CLARIFACATION ` TONIGHT WE WANT TO DEAL WITH POLICY. DISCUSSION AROUND COALTION PARTNERS AND BOTTOM LINES IS FOR OUR SECOND DEBATE ON THE WEDNESDAY BEFORE VOTING DAY. THE BIG ISSUE OF THE CAMPAIGN SO FAR HAS BEEN LEADERSHIP AND 'DIRTY POLITICS', SO LET'S START THERE. We tossed a coin. On a scale of 1 to 10, how direty has this been? Elections are a contest of ideas. They are a serious matter. My sense of going around New Zealand is that is what they are focused on. Today we went out there as the national party, wanting to get a third term. Hungry to get a third term. Let us get a number. 1 to 10. It is probably a five. Quite frankly, in the campaigns, there has always been the sort of Distractions. This is an election that is crucial for New Zealand. We are on the cusp of something very special for New Zealand if we grab it with both hands. We inherited the global financial crisis and we have a situation around the earthquakes. 1 to 10? It is probably about six. The authorities are investigating and New Zealanders will make up their own minds. I think there is some degree of not being on air. Shouldn't they be flooding to you? There is a certain amount of looking at small parties, but as we have been communicating our policies, I believe those polls will move more towards the left. We have the digit poll tomorrow. You are down mid-20s. You need to be to be mid-30s. The centre-left is centre-right is poised on an absolute knife edge. I think of David thinks this is the really big issue, he is missing the point. The New Zealanders who are watching tonight, they care about the important issues. We want to talk about them too. I want to talk about why Labour's polling is going down. They are distracting. They are screaming at the television asking them to say what they are going to do in the next term. I have plenty of questions. Have you seen the same numbers your polling? We have Labour polling down. GOOD EVENING, MR CUNLIFFE. OVER THE LAST TWO WEEKS, THE NATION HAS BEEN APPALLED BY THE REVELATIONS OF 'DIRTY POLITICS'. HOW WILL YOU, AS PRIME MINISTER, ENSURE THAT ALL MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT IN THE GOVERNMENT THAT YOU LEAD CONDUCT THEMSELVES WITH THE HIGHEST INTEGRITY? Thank you very much. I believe we need to lead this from the top. I need to hold all of my ministers to account and behave like they are ministers. If she was a minister in my Cabinet, she would be gone. Have you got an enemy within? I don't think so. I have set high standards. Ministers have been sacked, ministers have resigned when I having encouraged them to. People can read into the book what they like. This is a book that is politically charged. Do you believe Judith Collins is potentially problematic on the leadership? Judith Collins has worked extremely hard over the past six years on some difficult portfolios. Ministers make mistakes from time to time. Do you know anything about any of her people? I don't care. I go back to the issues that matter. While the public wants to move on and so do we, there is a theme of wilful blindness coming out from the Prime Minister whether it is about his own staff or his ministers. I think New Zealand deserves better than that. These are quickfire questions. Should you always obeyed the rules? It depends on the circumstance. Personality wise, there are a number of differences. I have led a different sort of path than David. He has been on the bureaucratic side and more in politics than I have. Our interests are somewhat different. I really appreciate the fact that John gave up a very lucrative career to come into Parliament. We have both benefited from a strong state education. Just be serene and do your best. What is your Achilles heel? I want to see the best in people. I am the trusting person. I see the best in New Zealand. New Zealand is doing well, it is very strong. It can be a lot stronger. It needs a third term government to deliver the results. I don't think so. Perfect date night? Bottle of wine, a video, a movie. What is the movie? The last one was the Lego movie with my kids. The most surprising political view you hold. It would be my support of gay marriage. I come from the centre-right. My perfect date night is one with Bronaugh. Will Winston Peters and the Conservatives get across the threshold? I hope that Winston Peters gets across. I hope not for the Conservatives. There is a real sense for New Zealanders that they want a strong and stable government. That strong and stable leadership is very crucial. WHILE YOU'RE WATCHING, YOU CAN ALSO HAVE A SAY BY VOTING IN OUR POLL. WHICH LEADER HAS IMPRESSED YOU MOST IN TONIGHT'S DEBATE? VOTE ON OUR WEBSITE, ONENEWS.CO.NZ/VOTE2014, OR TEXT 1 TO 8875 FOR DAVID CUNLIFFE. TEXT 2 TO 8875 FOR JOHN KEY. TEXT THE NUMBER, NOT THE NAME. EACH TEXT COSTS 75C. OR YOU CAN COMMENT ON OUR ELECTION WEBSITE. SEND US A TWEET USING #VOTE2014NZ, OR A TEXT TO 8875, OR GO TO OUR FACEBOOK PAGE. OK, BACK SOON WITH MORE OF YOUR QUESTIONS. PLUS, WHY DOESN'T THE ROCK STAR ECONOMY MEAN MORE MONEY IN OUR POCKETS? If you're gonna make your vote count on September 20, you need to be enrolled. It's not too late, but you need to get cracking. To get an enrolment form, call 0800 36 76 56 or visit elections.org.nz Welcome back to the leaders debate. The economy section. There are many people that I do this economy is on fire and we are enjoying some rude health and rude growth and you are telling us we are not. They are not getting anything out of it. We seem to have missed the party. We are going straight to the hangover. With the greatest respect, it is nonsense that half people did not get a pay rise. How many people got a pay rise? The vast overwhelming bulk of the economy would have got a pay rise. Let me finish. He is quoting the exact same index. If you look at our economy, Mike, our growth is one of the fastest in the world. 83,000 jobs created in the last year alone. If you look at migration, when I first became prime minister, 35,000 people were leaving because they were deserting. This year, this month, 80 New Zealanders left for Australia. I know their names. That is the number they are down. You cannot argue with the jobs. We can argue with the wages. A person that has been on a minimum wage is struggling, so that is why we are lifting the minimum wage. Poverty in New Zealand is not just about beneficiaries. It is about people who have been missing out. The job stats you cannot argue with. Migration turnaround is extraordinary. We have committed to fiscal surpluses every year. Getting unemployment back to 4%. What he has got is the ability to increase wages. What he is talking about is numbers. Your main coalition partners want an enquiry into the numbers. Like a household today, watching today, they have decided how much they are going to spend on fix the car and buying groceries and going on holiday in 2018. Our figures add up absolutely well. We have a Labour opposition that is saying that because growth rates are being cut in half, John's budgets are $500 million a year short. New Zealanders can have absolute confidence that they will keep the books in the black. Why don't your greatest mates believe you? It was a throwaway comment. So they don't want an audit? David Parker would be the Minister of Finance. We will get unemployment down. The reality is there is a couple of hundred million dollars above you and that is the reality. They cannot agree on the top tax. If you want the books back in black, look to National. We are one of the very few OECD countries, and we will keep delivering surpluses. It will be much more productive if I am allowed to answer. If New Zealanders want pay increases and they want a strong economy, they have to follow the plan that national is implementing. We have to be lifting those skills and opening up our markets and selling goods to the world. That is what has happened over the past six years. The average wage has gone from $47,000-$50,000. What we're not going to do is put people on the dole. The median real wage is less now than when John took office. At least you face the difficulty is you have a party running tax cuts. You are running tax increases. That is a tough sell in a good economy. I think you should ask Bill English about tax cuts. We have a reasonable economy and you want more tax and your coalition partners want more tax. We know that New Zealanders want to be able to count on an income. No one is criticising the national government for getting us through the GFC, and I respect John for that. The question on businessmen's lips is where is my share? New Zealanders are saying to me they have no idea what the game plan is. I want to go to a video question. Idea tax cuts next term or not? I hope so. Yes or no? I hope so. Why can you not confirm one way or the other? What is going to happen fiscally in the next three weeks that you cannot decide that you are going to do what you decide tonight? How much fiscal head room is there? Tax cuts coming - yes or no? If he hopes so, how much fiscal Head room is there in two years for those tax cuts to come? What the Prime Minister is not telling New Zealanders is that he has less than $500 million headroom. WHAT DO YOU PLAN ON DOING ABOUT UNEMPLOYMENT IN NZ? IT SEEMS TO ME A LOT OF THE JOBS THAT ARE AVAILABLE SEEM TO BE GOING TO PEOPLE FROM OUT OF THE COUNTRY COMING IN, AND THERE'S NOT A LOT LEFT FOR US KIWIS TO DO. I, MYSELF, HAVE BEEN UNEMPLOYED FOR A WHILE NOW, AND I'M HAVING A REALLY HARD TIME EVEN FINDING A JOB AT A SUPERMARKET. There are more New Zealanders unemployment and we came into office. Why is that happening? We are investing without plan in areas that will make the economy go faster. China is a great example. We have opened up New Zealand to that market. We have originally sold 2 billion dollars to that market. It is now $12 billion. It is one of the lower unemployment rates in the world. You can go through the list. Labour do not want to have local trade in an open economy. They want to partner up with the Greens who want to say no to everything. I think after six years, the Prime Minister should take responsibility for his own policies. Here is the truth of it. Unemployment is 32,000 higher than when he took office. That is not true. That is not true. Just one more question. You talk about your fiscal headroom. We don't have the fiscal headroom to buy back all the assets. Let me be clear. There is not fiscal headroom to buy back all the assets. We will keep the books in the black. WE'RE TAKING A BREAK, BUT STAY WITH US. HOME OWNERSHIP ` IS IT JUST A DREAM FOR TOO MANY, AND IS IT THE ISSUE OF THIS CAMPAIGN? Welcome back to the programme. The program is proving so popular that our online voting system has crashed. David Cunliffe, housing, can you seriously promised to build 10,000 houses a year? Yes. Housing is about the Kiwi dream that if anyone can work hard and play by the rules, they'll be able to get ahead and get their own home. Kiwibuild is essential. We have government contracts with private sector builders to build houses, then they are sold to the families. Then they pay the money back and we recycle it. Of the 10,000 houses, how many of them are $600,000? How many of them are 360? I do have the exact figures on that. They sound like dumps that will become ghettos eventually. I've heard that before. We will use the best private sector architects. In a town with $700,000 average value, new pop up with $360,000 houses, they must be out West and small. If we provide certainty by contracting demand, these companies will appear and take advantage of the new schemes we will bring in. You cannot tell us how many 360,000 houses there will be. We haven't yet come to government, and we cannot say from opposition. I'm giving you the price range. That is based on work with private sector developers. More be with more money in the same market ` what is going to happen to house prices? That is not a plan; it is a wish list. It will not work. If you want to fix the housing market, And it is important that New Zealanders can get into their home` you are giving people more money to go into an already overheated markets. What is the purpose in that? Our plan will fix the housing issues in New Zealand. We have rezoned more land throughout special housing areas in the last nine months than the last nine years. Not one house in the special housing area. Take the duties of T the final part is our home start programme. We will it be will take their savings from a KiwiSaver account, up to $20,000 if they are a couple, for a new home. There is a real plan for delivering a house. How many houses in Auckland are currently on the market for 550,000? 5%. We are going to deliver 90,000 homes and our home start program. Many of those will be new. The Prime Minister has put aside` your question was better. Let's give him a chance, because he said that he is putting this on to 90,000 homes. He is budgeted to hundred $20 million. That is about 2400 Per home. I walked around the homes this week. OUR special housing areas are new. They take a while to put the infrastructure in. Not one house has been completed. We were building 1000 times a month New Zealand a few years ago. We are at 2000 a month. This will add hundreds of new homes. If you want to get those homes, you cannot just sit there and say, 'Hi, I'm from the government. I'll find land at a mysteriously low price.' If you look at David's plan, and I have had a good look at it, it will take years, and you build a couple thousand homes. THE FIRST-HOME BUYERS SCHEME WILL APPEAL TO MANY PACIFIC PEOPLE, HOWEVER WHAT ABOUT THOSE FAMILIES WHO ARE STRUGGLING IN LOWER SOCIO-ECONOMIC AREAS LIKE SOUTH AUCKLAND WHO FIND THEMSELVES PARALYSED BY POOR CREDIT, OFTEN A RESULT OF OLD DEBT FUELLED BY CRIPPLING INTEREST RATES INCURRED BY LOAN SHARKS? THESE PEOPLE USUALLY FIND THEMSELVES JUST OUTSIDE THE ELIGIBILITY THRESHOLD. SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHAT WILL YOUR GOVERNMENT DO TO ADDRESS THIS? We have long signalled that we have concerns about loan sharks. A much stricter regulatory framework to govern that is appropriate. We will consider capping interest rates to loan sharks. Even on low income, a couple, they pay in a 3% to KiwiSaver, after five years can come up with about $50,000 deposit for a house. We are planning to take it from strength to strength and bring out the Nzers into it. Why capital gains tax? Capital gains tax does three things ` it insulate the future revenue pot from tax avoidance, it's fair, and it gets the incentives right to flow capital to where it can do the most good, real businesses that create real jobs. Under national, New Zealanders in surplus. New Zealand will stay in surplus, certainly not under Labour and the Greens. Why do you need an extra tax? We orally have a capital gains tax that applies to speculators. The capital gains tax that David is talking about will apply to every farm, every business in New Zealand. We are exempting farmhouses. Every business under Labour is going to have a capital gains tax. If you look at housing, the only bit they are going to exclude is the family home. They will only include rental properties. The Treasury says that if you put a capital gains tax on rental property, rents go up. The most people, given that homeownership rates are the lowest in 50 years, rental properties are crucial. That is why we are bring in a healthy homes guarantee to ensure that every family living in a renter is warm, dry and healthy. Go and look at the Treasury advice. The Treasury advice is clear. If you put capital gains on rental property, Rents go up. WE'RE GOING TO A BREAK NOW, BUT WHEN WE COME BACK, ARE WE BECOMING TENANTS IN OUR OWN COUNTRY? AND SHOULD WE SELL LAND TO FOREIGNERS? Welcome back to our ONE News vote 2014 leaders debate. Little bland and migration generally. You're going to tax the family farm. You're alsostanding at the end of the driveway and telling them they cannot sell to the Chinese. We believe we owe a duty to the people who are already here and the people that they might want to come here to treat them both fairly. Our land is our birthright. We inherited and we need to pass it on. That is not happening at the moment. Over 1,000,000ha of land has been approved foreign sale by this government. Go back to the Lochinver station. The family has found that since the 1950s. That put on the market. It is worth $70 million to a Chinese buyer. What is worth to New Zealand buyer? Nothing. They can sell it to foreign buyer if it created additional value to the New Zealand economy. And if it is Not proven, it will not be sold. Where the Stevenson family? They want to pull their money out. They want to create 8000 jobs. It doesn't matter whether it's a Chinese buyer or European. that law will change. We will retain a land unto New Zealand unless there is an overriding economic reason What about foreign buyers in New Zealand? We do not want to be homes to be speculative playthings. That is the law today. It has to have identifiable benefits. If you don't have that, it won't get approved under the law. Under Labour, twice as much land has been approved to be sold. The reason we should allow foreign investment in New Zealand is because we want to support jobs and growth. We don't have enough capital of our own to underpin those jobs and growth. If we say no to foreign capital, then we have to say no to a stronger economy and the things a stronger economy delivers. We should also put a little bit of perspective around us. The overseas investment office, which has the responsibility for looking at this, says 1% to 2% of farmland in NZ is owned by foreigners. The government had a look and asked How many farms owned by Chinese nonnationals in New Zealand. The answer is zero. I agree with the Prime Minister. I want to give him credit for this. We are capital short. We are importing a lot of capital. That's why we need to strengthen now saving system. That's why Labour will build KiwiSaver and grow our national savings. That is why we will continue to support KiwiBank to grow a New Zealand bank that will keep more value in New Zealand. Let's give back to the land sales. I know the figures are slightly ropey. 0.6 of 1% was sold to foreigners. This is not just about so-called sensitive land. This is about productive New Zealand farmland that supports our greatest industry ` dairy. You have an answer the question as to what would happen with CRAFOR and Lochinver station. Another New Zealander can buy it. They don't want to at the price they will sell it. Exactly. If the international market prices higher than the local price, that means that New Zealand farmers and share milkers will never be able to buy their way into their own farm because it will be competing against 0% credit from Shanghai or Beijing or Belgium or wherever. That is not the kind New Zealand I want to see young families grow up in. The counterargument is that you can't buy the land in China and Japan; why are we letting them buy our land? We want to grow our economy. We need to build and grow. David says the way you grow the economy is the government putting more money in the savings accounts. Then you just sweeten KiwiSaver with an additional deposit subsidy? Let's not yesterday what Fonterra did. They invested $655 million. That's how capital Flow works. None of that involves the buying land in China. The Chinese people can't do that. Are we better off for a bit of capital coming in? I've always said that I will not support foreign investment coming Unless it creates jobs. Why not A register? Because every single farm already goes through the office. If you go and have a look at the number of non-resident people their own Housing in NZ that don't live here and rent theirs out` Fonterra is investing in additional processing of consumer goods. That is good. They moving to the high-value end of the market. You don't support any of that. We need to get more of our financial product to goods and services. A REMINDER THAT THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE TO VOTE IN TONIGHT'S POLL. THE WEBSITE IS STILL DOWN, BUT YOU CAN STILL TEXT YOUR VOTE. WE'LL TELL YOU THE RESULT BEFORE THE END OF THE PROGRAMME. AFTER THE BREAK, THE POLLS AND WHAT'S COMING NEXT. Welcome back to this first leaders debate with David Cunliffe and John Key. Migrants come flooding back to the country. Why are they doing that? I'm proud to be the MP for new Lynn for 15 years. Nearly 4/10 people There were not born in New Zealand. We celebrate diversity and everybody gets to live in peace. Are we about right On numbers? Most New Zealanders want to see a migration program we lose the peaks and troughs and fills in skill gaps. Colin Craig wants to halve immigration. We welcome people to New Zealand if they bring capital, skills and, most of all, attitude. Everyone comes from somewhere. If you look in it migration at the moment, it goes through flows. Those flows are lumpy sometimes. 35,000 people left this country for Australia because they didn't see a brighter future for New Zealand. New Zealanders can now see we are on the cusp of something special for this country. I met a couple where the partner had to go to Perth to get a decent job to work in the mines to save the deposit for their home. He has got a job that has continued and is better than he can get here. Nicestory, but they are actually coming back here. Migration can make a real contribution to growth. How do you think tonight has gone? It is always interesting. Politics is the contest Of ideas. We are here to talk to New Zealanders about what matters. How do you rate David Cunliffe? I'm not a political commentator. If Nzers want a strong future, there's only one party that can do that. David Cunliffe? I've been talking to New Zealanders about things that matter for them. I've always respected John. He is trying to do the right thing for New Zealand. We did have different ideas about how to get there. We are the future; he is the past. 61% ` JOHN KEY. 39% ` DAVID CUNLIFFE. NEXT UP IN OUR DEBATE SERIES ARE THE POTENTIAL COALITION PARTIES. JOINS US NEXT FRIDAY AT 7 FOR A MULTI-PARTY DEBATE HERE ON TV ONE. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING. THANKS TO THE LEADERS. SEE YOU TOMORROW. CAPTIONS BY VIRGINIA PHILP AND FINN SCOTT-KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014