ONE NEWS CAPTIONS BY JUNE YEOW AND HUGO SNELL. VOTE 2014 CAPTIONS BY FINN SCOTT-KELLY, FAITH HAMBLYN AND GLENNA CASALME. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF THE VOTE 2014 LEADERS' DEBATE, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO THE SECOND VOTE 2014 ELECTION DEBATE. TONIGHT IT'S THE PARTIES WHO WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT ON WHO RUNS OUR COUNTRY POST POLLING DAY. I'M MIKE HOSKING. TONIGHT NOT ALL THE QUESTIONS WILL GO TO ALL THE LEADERS. WE'LL LOOK TO FOCUS ON THE BITS WHERE THEY MAY HAVE INFLUENCE. WE ARE LOOKING FOR CONCISE ANSWERS, AND IF THERE IS TOO MUCH TALKING OVER EACH OTHER, WE'LL SIMPLY MOVE ON. YOU'LL MISS OUT. Let's start first of all, welcome all of you to the program. Colin, who is your hero? Sir Edmund Hillary. Fantastic. With this piece of advice you ever got? From my grandmother, there is no free lunches in life. The three films you'd recommend as must sees. Casablanca, that makes the top 10. The colour purple, midnight Runner. Peter Dunne, the best New Zealand Prime Minister. Helen Clark would be a close second. The best leader globally? President Obama. One of the best values you admire in others? Honesty, courage and vision. The perfect Sunday? Down the lake, nice kai. What sport did you play in school, Jamie Whyte? Tennis. Would you recommend McDonald as a job For your kids? No. But it is good for some people. Brendan, what is your favourite fast food? I think a lovely pizza. Your best holiday destination? Fijii. Russell, the MP outside your party you most admire and why. I probably have quite a Bit of time for Bill English.I think he's honest. What aspect of your leadership have you had to work hardest on? Be a better communicator. There were two polls out today. The MP outside your party you most admire. Hone Harawira for tonight. He had some great ideals for our people, despite differences of opinion. When he got into power, he ran to the opposition. There are some things in life they go astray, but in terms of a track record of doing things for our people, he is one of them. Top values? Trust, honesty and huge integrity. Peter, how dirty has this campaign being? This has been the dirtiest campaign I can remember. This has been a consistent trawl of dirt. Everyone has been affected in terms of getting their message out. Hopefully the last week has seen us move through that and focus on the policy issues. Has all of you had trouble getting messages out? Will you hope with the injunction today that you can get some policy out there? CRAIG: voters need something to vote on. Let's hope so. Horan: we have had trouble getting our message out. We have been blacked out by the media 50% for National by two polls out today. We will turn them into confetti on election night. We are quietly confident that there is a surge on for New Zealand First. We believe the polls are wrong. Who else believes the polls are wrong? WHYTE: they must be wrong because they are so volatile. DUNNE: you can't say this party is getting this percent or that percent, but you must look at the trend; the trend is clear. There is no mood for a change of government. NORMAN: look at the poll of polls. The Greens are doing about 13%. From that platform, we will be able to achieve a lot of change. You won't be able to achieve any change, because the consistency that Peter Dunne talks about is the Labour Party at 20%, not going anywhere Are you announcing a deal with national tonight? We got a quarter of 1 million households inside with insulation. If you are strong, consistent party like the Greens have been, you can achieve a lot of things whether you're in government or not We have led the opposition the last three years. PETERS: The Greens have not let the opposition. They even asked for an audit of the Labour Party books. Are you sitll asking for one? When I was asked the question about Labour, I said obviously would have a look at their books. It's important to know how it fits together. PETERS: everyone does due diligence. They get Treasury in. Why would someone call for that if they don't know what's going on? It's always done post-election. From my point of view, you have to demonstrate why you will pay for your promises. Do you now believe what the numbers say? The numbers are fine. Where have you been, Hone? Kelvin has missed a lot of the meetings that I have been attending. It is unfortunate that he can't be here tonight, but he is not a leader, so he hasn't been invited. Polls are particularly bad for Maori because the polls that we use are landline based and Maori, 50% don't own a landline. How tense are things in this arrangement of yours? Mana and the Internet Party as a very strategic alliance to change this national, Maori party government. Anyone who wants to support that objective, we urge them to get to the polling vote. What about your other issues? How much tension is there? Internet Mana has a clear policy on cannabis. If you had read the press release, Mike, you would have seen it ` Internet Mana is supporting the use of medical cannabis and is also calling for a complete and comrades a review of our drug laws as they apply to cannabis, tobacco and alcohol. DUNNE: At the time of the substance abate, you are calling for drug users to be shot. HARAWIRA: no, I was calling for drug sellers to be shot. PETERS: I think the people out there have this as a priority this election. Here's the point ` I can recall 2002. It was a knife edge on election night. That's what's happening in 2014. The big issue is whether this country is in economic decline or can deliver on the promises people are making. FLAVELL: I was going to say about your original question about finding space for the small parties, most people talk about national and Labour but under MMP, the small parties are what makes it happen. Polls go up and down. Three polls today, National 50% every single one. CRAIG: those polled don't count undecided. On election day, undecided go for smaller parties. PETERS: but a vote for your party is a wasted vote. You can't buy love, and you can't buy an election. New Zealand First is going past 10% as we speak. Past 10%? The last time you had this poll has on 2.5 and we came in on 7%. You got it wrong last time and you'll get it wrong this time as well. About the conservative party is a wasted vote. The sooner they come home the better. HORAN: the only poll that counts is the one on 20 September. That's the oldest line in politics. DUNNE: I think Russell has put the Greens in a position where they would challenge Labour to be the senior party of opposition. Their coming into the Labour vote, which is good for the Greens. You are seeing a transition occur here. WE'RE BACK WITH THE LEADERS, TALKING KINGMAKER, POLICIES AND MORE. Russell, we're back on air. Don't dance. First Russel, you are looking for a significant contribution if Labour get up. How many seats? We could be a partner. We are polling over 10%. We're 13%. So it's a mathematical calculation? It's a democratic one. Our policy is cleaner, fairer, smarter. We want policy gains in social policy, environment policy. You're not getting finance. Does that bother you? The voters decide the relative proportions of the parties. Deputy? It's on the table, but the Greens are in politics because we want to get some good, green change. We are focused on policy gains in economic, and environment. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place in the you are not not going to do a deal. They lead party, and they will give you what you want. We have grown our base. We are a strong party. We have stopped the bad things too, like mining in national parks. We are In a strong position in terms of negotiation. Clean, green and fear these are the foundations of what makes New Zealand a great place. Winston Peters, Cabinet places? We have not considered that. If you do not consider the policies and promises you are going to make, you will be beaten in negotiations. What do you want policy wise? We want economic direction to be changed. Give me something specific. 'It's the economy, stupid'; if you can't get the economy going, your other promises are not with the air they pass on. We want to refocus into exporting, production and New Zealand jobs. We've got jobs; we're exporting. I don't want to give you an economic lecture. Dairy prices are falling 50%. The government is carrying on as though nothing has happened. It's not a rockstar economy. We are going to hit the rocks. We had a Bill twice beaten last year and the year before by one vote because they want to govern the country for the speculators of downtown Queen Street. You get your Epsom seat, you do nothing, you vanish. Do you have any bottom lines? We have a bunch of policies we are keen to get in. Bottom line is are ridiculous. Nobody will guarantee they can get those promises through. PETERS: your in the government pocket now. That's why you can't get anything done. We would get a lot through this time. What is the number one? Cutting the company tax rate. They are not gonna do it. DUNNE: I don't think they will. They cut in the 2010 Cabinet to go below Australia. As long as remain competitive, I see no pressure to cut it. WHYTE: if we cut the company tax rate, no single policy would do more to create economic growth. What we're trying to do is to find out what specifically will come to pass as a result of you being in Parliament apart from you propping up national. Propping up national is extremely important. Is that all you want to do? I say the opposite. We want to get the company tax rate cut. We want three strokes for burglary through. We have a well articulated agenda for policy. Your school policy is already in. We want it extended. You're making my point. The act party is a continuation of agenda of Roger Douglas. That agenda has saved New Zealand. It is transformed into the vibrant and open country that is today. I want to focus on your policy. Banning offshore oil drilling ` I've never seen a green policy that is so more green. Why is it not a bottom-line? We want to make progress across a range of policy areas. The Greens want to cut the company tax rate. It's about climate change. By putting a price on carbon, we can put in an income tax rate cut. We can The company tax rate from 28% to 27%. That's what a green tax shift looks like. Why is not a bottom line? Climate change policy is not just about deep sea oil drilling. It's also about a price on carbon. You have this massive green policy that you won't back as a bottom line. You're the one that is caught up on it being a massive green policy. In terms of climate change, if you want to New Zealand's emissions, you need a price on carbon but you can't pick one thing though. We need to take advantage of the incredible growth in the green economy globally. Renewable energy is growing faster than any other source. Te Ururoa Flavell, does this all sit comfortably with you? FLAVELL: people are always boxed the Maori party into the left or the right; we are about going forward. The question that should be asked is 'will Winston Peters continue to work with the race-based party 'and are the race-based parties mana, Internet and the Maori party?' He has answered that. He will not. PETERS: if you are going to Scandinavia, you will see countries light years ahead of us intensive environment and sustainability, but they do it with extraction. New Zealand First understands that. That's why we oppose the emissions trading scheme. We think it encourages pollution. You want a carbon tax, don't you? NORMAN: Yes. It makes a lot of sense. PETERS: that's not what they do in Scandinavia. This can be settled between industry and the government without us getting into an international trading scheme that benefits people in the middle. Sweden sits at the top of the table of carbon prices. New Zealanders at the bottom of the table. In terms of oil, I hear what you say, but the secretary general of the OECD said we have already found too much fossil fuel. FLAVELL: this is illustrating the point about making up government. We sometimes agree and sometimes disagree. If Winston Peters is not prepared to work with 'race-based parties'` PETERS: Maori want decent housing, decent jobs. That's what Maori want. We have a bunch of people here from the sociality Department in Auckland University that make claims about what Maori want. Ask them what they want. We don't believe in separatism. Hone? HARAWIRA: in Internet Mana, there are more non-Maori candidates than Maori candidates. We have, amongst other people on the Internet Mana brand, Maori, Pacific islanders, Pakeha ` the same as NZ. DUNNE: the key for compatibility is some view on policy direction. I would be happy to continue working with my colleagues on my right because we have worked well over the last few years. United Future will be keen to work with them under the direction and guidance of government. Will you work with Winston? I'll give him about five or six. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. We are talking policy, potential coalition deals. New Zealanders know politicians hijack the system. They are what the public want. Would you expect national to fold on that? National introduced the policy of referendum. We are asking that national remember what they undertook. 1990 we wrote the policy. Michael laws and myself. CRAIG: There wasn't a citizens referendum. I'm concerned about what the people want. We wrote the policy to be honoured and respected. You and Colin are one with that? This is a terrible policy. No matter what the turnout, or result, it's a law. CRAIG: two thirds make a binding. It's 10%. The referendum at the moment aRe wacky subjects. It's not right to say to the public these wacky subjects. CRAIG: Stopping the asset sales, anti-smacking these are not wacky subjects. The referendum has to explain how it is funded. The issue with that is that has a financial consequence. The question must how. That's not our only policy. TWo interesting policies the spreading of attacks, the superannuation. Let's take the second one first. Our agreement with national was there would be a paper and period of discussion. The work was unable to be completed closing up to the election. The FlexI super policy is a lower rate if you defer. We don't just rush into things. That was proposed at the 2011 election. Go back to the income sharing one that one has a bill before Parliament on a second reading. The cost of implementing it annually is less than the cost of producing it. What I would say is if you look at the confidence, every element of those agreements has been achieved. Next week will see work starts on the transmission Gully motorway, which is the end of a 95 year wait. Hone, what is your desperate to get up in terms of government? Dope and decriminalisation had nothing to do with government. What is our primary policy? The elimination of child poverty. Our feed the kids Bill is currently live in Parliament. Thanks to Labour, Maori, mana and the Internet party. The second thing is building 10,000 new state houses every year until the housing crisis is over. So that Labour's policy? No, they are talking about 10,000 affordable houses; I'm talking about 10,000 steakhouses. We have 30,000 families in this family who are listed as homeless. They sleep in cars, caravans, cow sheds, under bridges, on streets. This is you. This is the campaigner from before. What has that to do with Brendan? You are espousing these policies before Dotcom. That doesn't change, but through Internet mana, we have reached a wider audience. The whole objective of a strategic alliance is to enable us to lift ourselves and our game to a different level. Who is worried about Dotcom? WHYTE: I am. Kids not getting access to education is massive. One in four kids, they don't get to express their full opportunity. Stand down. Don't need it. Don't need it. Pardon? An adaptor. Chinese power points are the same as here. How did you`? How did you`? You looked at it, then you looked out there where they sell adaptors, and the phrasebook told me the rest. When you're travelling, so many things are different. It's comforting to see something familiar and you just know it's gonna work. ANZ customers can now access overseas ANZ ATMs without overseas ATM fees. Now I have to make my connection. If you're gonna make your vote count on September 20, you need to be enrolled. It's not too late, but you need to get cracking. To get an enrolment form, free text your name and address to 36 76 or visit elections.org.nz Welcome back. We'll talk more policy. We want to talk about MMP. You've been burned badly by being in government. Why would you stay? I don't know that I've been burned. We have produced huge gains for Maori people across the board. Ministerial portfolios and Cabinet committees on poverty took poverty to the forefront of government thinking. It comes out of our ability to sit next to a national government. A historical tie to labour, but what I have found is a belief that Non-maori people cannot vote for the Maori party. The policies we have aRe generic. They have all stolen from you, Winston (!) Let him finish. When you are at the table, it is all good talking about it; what we did is do it. All these wonderful things that you have done, do people just know you are responsible for it? Some of that. People can give theIr party vote to the Maori party. We have three main values. Boost pensions for seniors, create jobs, move towards zero fees for students. Our first priority is to look after senior citizens. $282 a week is not enough. By 2020 there will be a further 200. A financial transaction tax on banks and foreign-exchange traders. We introduced it last time. You are part of all of this originally. It's not reinventing the wheel. France, Germany and nine other European countries have now adopted a financial transaction tax. Taxing one cent and every dollar will let us money. How would you broadly position yourself in the political spectrum? We are centrist. DUNNE: It's unpractical, unworkable, nonsense. DUNNE: Look at all of the international tax committees, it will tell you that financial transaction tax are complicated, unworkable. We need to be sharing the tax burden a lot more equally. HARAWIRA: We would introduce a capital gains tax. We will introduce a tax on luxury items. We would abolish GST. You have to demonstrate how you're going to pay for it. For every dollar you earn over 140,000, you pay more. We pay more tax, we get kids out of poverty. In any post-election negotiation, it will depend on the votes. I'm of the view that this is exactly the kind of tax we need. We need to put taxes on pollution. NORMAN: We want to have the first $2000 of income tax-free. Why would you penalise the lowest paid in the country? Brendan, you were a quirk of MMP. You came in on the back of Winston. How is that sensible, logical or fear? I came to Parliament to be there for three years. Our second focus is job creation. We want to narrow the wage gap. You are comfortable being here invented after you got sacked. Parliament is broken. They climbed the corporate ladders of their party rather than serving electorates. You didn't win your electorate; you came in on the back of Winston. Why wouldn't you stay with national? That's what Parliament is all about. At the end of the day, it will come down to an invitation. If you held the balance of power, they would both find an invitation. We wait for the invitation and go back to the people who vote for us and ask them? You did it. I'll come back to the question. Here's what these two parties are offering. MORE WHEN WE COME BACK ` THE LEADERS ON MMP, HOW IT WORKS AND WHETHER WE NEED CHANGE. We asked you what you reckon we should work on at Z. Sometimes, like today, I just need to keep them moving as fast as I can. Well, I've got places to go, so more diesel lanes would be good. (SIGHS) I'd like to fill up no matter which side I park. We hear you, NZ. So we've got pay at pump,... UPBEAT MUSIC ...we've got diesel in more lanes... and super-long hoses. So come and see what you reckon now, as we help you Zip Thru Z. WELCOME BACK. An act question for you, Jamie Whyte. David was going to win the Epsom electorate. We've discussed the polls before. I am confident about the poll results. Hold on. You specifically said... But you were representingEpsom and you still haven't been able to grow your party after two terms. I'm appealing to voters on the basis of policies and beliefs. That's my question. You policies and police are the same. You have been around for a long time. It's not like the people don't understand what you are about. I think the party got embroiled in a whole lot of stuff that stop people from thinking about what for all about. My job is to remind people what we are all about. They've got no alternative party. Were the only party in the selection that has proposed to cut spending and cut taxation what do we need to change about MMP. We are not the only party who are wanting to do that. Yes, we do want to stop foreigners buying our land. MMP ` one of the two things the government told us we cannot talk about I believe we should unify the roll we should unify the Mps I believe that the thresholds should go down to 3%. There are several electoral commission that has examined this. The understanding is that we would reform the system. The problem is a national party... Which do in particular? The coattailing should go. I've never supported in the first place. That is why were the biggest party. We've got 11% before. hopefully we can get 15% this time The key thing with any electoral system is that it needs to facilitate the opportunity for different points to be represented there was a one seat rule why haven't you been able to grow your vote? We've never set out to be spectacular. We've set out to be solid. Politics is not theater. Politics is not a theater sport. It's about doing the best for your country. It's about achieving policies. We have done more than anyone else in this room the truth is we are far more happy to be judged on achievement rather than flippery the point is sensible politics and sensible leadership the people of this country do not this coat-taling rule if you can't get 5% in an election then simply your party is not good enough. Are you going to try and maybe two or possibly three on the back of you. It's a tremendous weight isn't it? We are comfortable with as long as the 5% threshold is they cannot completely so that every vote that is given to a party is registered to that party. We are comfortable with this. We're not against this. The fact of the matter is that the coat tailing rule does exist and as far as this rule exists, we would play by the rules is nobody in favor of this rule? Brendan Horan can only maintain that that position for a limited time. If you Labour Party then you leave the parliament. that's how it should be List Mps comes solely accountable to their party. If the Labour Party then they should leave the parliament I want to come back to the coat tailing issue. A lot of Maori have discuss this the real fear is the loss of Maori seats they fear that Maori seats are in jeopardy especially the Te Tai Tokerau seats you have to agree that Maori have a lot of representation there is a right there that is called the Treaty of Waitangi be that as it may, this is what I've heard. Maori communities fear for the Maori seats the Royal commission said at the time that MMP would demonstrate to Maori that there is no need for an additional enterprise majority of Maori today are on the general role not the Maori roll will get a picture which of the leaders ONE QUESTION EACH. Russel Norman, talk to me about the rivers. NZ exports the world based on our clean green brand. If we don't protect the environment that is going to be costly to us. Cleaning up the rivers is actually a huge economic investment. It would be great if we can swim in all the rivers. More than that, if we don't clean up the rivers, then we will destroy the brand and our number one export industry. Right now it doesn't cost very much from central government. Catchment per catchment, that's going to have a cost. We don't have a number yet per catchment because the analysis has never been done. It will be based on what every farmer would say about their catchment Burglary and three strikes? How big a deal is it to you? Most burglars do not get up prison conviction. Our policies we are hoping will cut burglaries by a third is this three burglaries or three crimes at all? It is a separate regime. Burglary is when you enter somebody home so it is a home and not the business? The problem of burglaries, what makes it the dreadful crime is that it is an invasion. I'm just telling you about the burglaries at home burglary is when you enter into a home. Shoplifting is not the same as burglary if I enter a building that isn't mine, that's burglary I'm telling you, this is the definition of burglary. There is a crime. If I enter mitre 10 tonight even though if it's closed, then that's burglary I thought you said I was the interviewer. The maximum penalty for burglary today is 10 years. And yet it has never been applied. We have career burglars Winston, 65 retirement age, yes or no? Yes. 1.4% GDP, that is have of Germany. We were gonna smooth out those costs. It is still affordable, but what we need is to show that 68,000 have been coming into this country and no need to pay tax and they qualify. I can justify my policy based on the GDP net cost they can justify theirs. There's doesn't tick into 2023 they are dead scared but if we weren't there before, they would dump the weekly payment to 260 they're too scared now. Colin Craig, how fixated are you on smacking? Investigations on parents child abuse has gone up since the law law, it is a disaster because I were rates have gone up 32% Australia has managed to reduce this by 11% targeting good parent is not the solution the people of this country have said change the law overwhelmingly. Peter, tax or the super? The super would be number one. Second would be recreation we would set the daily bag limit for recreational fishing a lot of Nzers enjoy fishing we are going to set out to change that. In government, one of the great debates is the poverty gap do you think that you have close the poverty gap for your people? Not enough, absolutely. We've also been a part and in a solution with the green party. What will you do in the next three years? We are talking about the kickstart program for kids who are struggling at that age we are claiming an ability to insulate some houses about 30,000 houses we have done. Whanau ora it's at the heart of our push to fix poverty my one keep policy would have to be the elimination of child poverty we have 280,000 children living below the poverty line 100,000 children going to school every single day hungry 30,000 families who are homeless at the moment how do you fix poverty? Were you talking about something as important as child poverty, we have to ask ourselves what is the most important thing in the world that is ourselves and our children the bill doesn't matter. If our children are really the taonga, that we say they are, we need to invest in them the biggest area of job growth and productivity is in the burgeoning world of industrial and Internet we need to create pathways of learning now we need to seek new skills and confidence season our children higher skills means higher productivity means more wages people will be able to care for their families we would take the pictures from the leaders that we wrap this debate Final moments of our multiparty leaders debate Colin Craig the party vote for the conservative party is a vote for a party of traditional family values a smaller more efficient government no segregation on the basis of race reducing the number of Mps and the anti-smacking law it counts. That's our bottom line. If you want people in charge it's us nothing is more important in NZ and high levels economic growth. Other parties want to run the economy like they want to run a bath act is the only party that is offering lower taxes if you want to live in a prosperous country where you have more say in your own life then choose us United future want to be part of a government that wants to progress our income sharing policy we want to be the friends of the fishers the hunters and we want to make sure that our outdoor heritage is preserved please go out and vote we wanted to be a strong, independent Maori voice with influence, and we have done that. We will be able to defend Maori rights. We have advanced the best interests of Maori at the selection, that greens are asking for your party about it's about cleaning up our rivers and our beaches it is margin NZ where we invest in research and innovation with a global growth of the economy this is NZ's time NZ first is for a clean democracy with creative wealth policies that really work and the well shared with everybody in this country we negate separatism we negate any policies based on race not need give us the tools and will finish the job I like to think that the people are going to vote Internet mana because our policies are simple feeding the kids, building 10,000 statehouses every year free tertiary education, repealing the GCSB bill at the end of the day, I give it all away if all of us would just agree to defeat child poverty we are driven by the purpose of providing children a safe environment a participatory democracy. Just so Kiwis can have a voice not everyone's every three years the future is ours. No one will give it to us. We had to build it ourselves. With God's grace in your vote, we can and change NZ politics We have one more debate to go good night CAPTIONS BY FINN SCOTT-KELLY, FAITH HAMBLYN AND GLENNA CASALME. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014.