GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M SUSAN WOOD. ON THE PROGRAMME THIS SUNDAY ` He should be up for theft THE BATTLE TO BE KINGMAKER. CONSERVATIVE PARTY LEADER COLIN CRAIG AND NZ FIRST LEADER WINSTON PETERS ARE AFTER THE SAME VOTERS. WHO WILL COME OUT TOP? ALSO ON THE PROGRAMME ` EDUCATION. NATIONAL'S HEKIA PARATA AND LABOUR'S CHRIS HIPKINS GO HEAD TO HEAD. APPLAUSE NATIONAL STANDARDS AND SMALLER CLASSES ` THE ISSUES STUDENTS, PARENTS AND TEACHERS CARE ABOUT - WHO GETS TOP MARKS FOR THEIR POLICIES? POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN IS HERE. AND WE'LL ANALYSE ALL THE ISSUES WITH OUR EXTENDED PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR CLAIRE ROBINSON, METRO EDITOR SIMON WILSON AND FORMER NATIONAL PARTY PRESIDENT MICHELLE BOAG AND KELSTON BOYS HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPAL BRIAN EVANS. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF Q+A, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US. COLIN CRAIG IS SHAPING UP AS A REAL CONTENDER IN ANY POST-ELECTION COALITION TALKS. HIS PARTY HAS REACHED 3% IN THE LATEST ONE NEWS-COLMAR BRUNTON POLL. OTHER POLLS HAVE HIM TRENDING UPWARDS TOO. HE'S GUNNING FOR THE SAME VOTERS AS NZ FIRST. AND WE'LL BE TALKING TO ITS LEADER WINSTON PETERS SHORTLY. BUT FIRST, WHAT DO THE CONSERVATIVES REALLY WANT? CORIN IS WITH CONSERVATIVE PARTY LEADER COLIN CRAIG. Have you heard from John key it in this campaign? No, not at all. I am comfortable with that. We are not some props for somebody else. We are quite happy that we haven't. Your 3% in our polls. Other polls have you little bit higher. Do you think you might start to hear some endorsement perhaps from John Key? No, I don't know. We are comfortable and confident that we are doing a job well. That's what we need to be doing I do not know what national thinking. The think you can work with Winston peters? I do not have any particular problem with Winston peters. Whether he can work with is probably the question. We want to sensible stable government going forward. That is a center-right government that's what we're about. The reality is it's not about working with Labour. So no centre left government. Is it fair to say that this issue binding referendums is what you're really after? I think people need to know who you can work with and what you gonna prioritize we have made it very clear. How does it work? Referendums the same we have now but making the binding? There are a couple of changes that need to be implemented. They need to be simple, if there is financial consequences, that has to be explained how they're funded. The thing is it then doesn't leave the government in an impossible position. It doesn't mean we wouldn't ask questions about the negotiation. The reality is what the public wants and what interests them. The public have been saying hey we want a say in what's been happening. It's making sure the government response to what really matters you could ask for a set number of binding referendum what happened to the public say push for a referendum that says we want to cut taxes by 10% the reality is it's not going to happen. It's not going to work. There is financial consequence. So you can guarantee the referendum results then? That's why no in the world have referendums that are binding. I just wonder whether it's more social issues that you are interested here. Like the anti-smacking law if the government can't accept that 7.5% people voting then we have a problem with that. The anti-smacking legislation. Your number five on the list Dr. Saafi says The anti-smacking legislation is leading to higher incidence of suicide in Pacific youth there is a connection. He is very accomplished as a researcher. He knows there is no connection. But he thinks that there is. In terms of the Pacific Island community. They do see a number of things that are concerning to them but the discussion is that there are a number of concerns the concerned about family breakdown on the issue of candidates. Steve Taylor is number eight on your list he wants to come into Parliament to name people with the name suppression my reaction is the current name suppression laws are allowing people to not be held accountable I was very clear on that. While he might wish to do that, there is no legal provision to do that the reality is he somebody was advocate for victims on his blog sites, people do fairly get wound up an intense. Thank you, Colin Craig SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQANDA. YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF. EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. NEW ZEALAND FIRST LEADER WINSTON PETERS IS NEXT. AND LATER ` WE LOOK BACK AT WHAT WAS MAKING POLITICAL NEWS THIS WEEK IN 1976 ` THE NEW NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT DATA BASE. WHAT WAS IT BETTER KNOWN AS? WELL, WE HEARD FROM COLIN CRAIG. HE'S TAKING ON WINSTON PETERS FOR THOSE CONSERVATIVE VOTERS. HERE'S CORIN WITH THE NZ FIRST LEADER. Two weeks out from polling day Labour is in a pretty poor position. The thing that they are still a credible force to form a government? I don't think I'm the best person to ask. Let's be honest, we have come a long time. The greens come into government was never a mathematical possibility if you can suck it up mathematically, then it doesn't stack up Is Colin Craig a threat to you? You put it right there. He will need some help from some other party. They will go into a room with Mr. Key, and they will take whatever he gets them. Not the other way around posting that sort of question, will not work more importantly, Mr. Craig he had spent on 1 million pamphlets saying that a vote for NZ first will be wasted you barely even want to be on the same stage as him. Were gonna be on the same stage this afternoon at Mangawhai because they have been ripped off by the central government. As a person, as a party, they are not that dissimilar to yourself I do have a serious understanding of what conservative means. I am a responsible conservative. They know what NZ and Winston peters have done they know what my stance is against corporate rates immigration is completely different if there was a center-right government and you are going to be asked to be potentially taking part a vote for the conservative party is a wasted vote. Many people know that. We don't make the phone call. We always say that we are happy to talk to the party with the most votes. Are you willing to accept a call from the centerleft? That is the constitutional propriety of this country. The fact is it's not for us to be starting making phone calls. Do you plan on giving more of a structural scheme of how we were going this campaign. There is a lot more going to come in the next 13 days this idea that you're going to sign up for some party not knowing what's coming which are already committed it's not sane, sound or rational what about cross benches? Sitting on the cross benches voting on things that are backed by sound debate. Trying to form a minority government. Then he comes back and try to convince you. I've been in politics a long time more than John Key. We don't have the ground going in to learn after the next three years where the toilet is. What were after is the things that matter to us things that we are going to campaign for. We have record of stability in this country. Do you remember in 1984 and 1951 29 people left their parties in the first past the post you have been critical of the centerleft about throwing money around. I have been critical of both sides. This is serious. We are going to be facing tougher economic times, no matter who's in government. What about the GST off veggies? That's the only way we're going to do it. Were going to change the Reserve Bank for a start so it favors exports. We will not be having higher inflation. We haven't had that since 2003 how are you going to change the Reserve Bank at then? What about exports and employment? What about GDP growth? Those are the four things that people look at for a sound economy. LET'S GO TO OUR PANEL NOW ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR CLAIRE ROBINSON, METRO EDITOR SIMON WILSON AND FORMER NATIONAL PARTY PRESIDENT MICHELLE BOAG. Are we any clear on how it will work? Mr. Peter said there will be tough negotiations. He has always played very Sensibly. He is always been very good at identifying what their party wants. They have made it very clear. Michelle, who would national preferred to work with at this point? Colin Craig authority spelled out some bottom lines. It was interesting to see how Colin Craig was pulling back from that and now talking about the financial education and how it's going to be funded. That would work for social issues the anti-smacking legislation. It would be a radical change in the signals to political activists. If you could simply achieved legislated change by having a binding referendum you the of last referendum in the way people would be engaged in politics I think would be a huge change if you can simply say to people here we go, you can have a referendum; you can have these changes. But what does that make our government? Chopped liver. I don't think national is going to be in any position to support something like that. It will be very hard for national to sign up to a coalition like that he also talked about it being a simple question this anti-smacking law. This is the difficulty with referendum questions. There always worded in a particular way, and people take one meaning or another meaning from it and there will never be an agreement about what the meaning is the polls indicate that he is likely to need either Colin Craig or Winston peters. I suspect he's not going to need both. It is going to be incredibly difficult to get both. Mr. Peters will be there. They're already pulling over 5%. Colin Craig could sink back. He could be benefiting right now from the experimentation that people do he got 2.65 from the last election you have a very conservative Christian vote. That was 3 �%. He is definitely moderated his position of the last three years. A survey we've done in Massey University where 40% are over 35 years old, conservatives are in alignment with people's values you tell me there is real conservative ideas with the young people now you have national hovering around 50%; and the conservative vote and the NZ first vote it's heading up to 60%, actually. That is almost unheard of in NZ. People often assumed that the conservative vote is the right vote. Heaps of old-fashioned conservative Labour voters gorgeous sick and tired of what they see happening to their party, and I think that's why were not seeing nationals numbers decrease and we are seeing labors numbers decrease. They're going to the third parties like the conservatives. Were not necessarily thinking of the left and right blocks. They are not even thinking that way. They're just thinking how well does this align with our beliefs. Let us talk about religion. There's always been Christian votes. The conservatives are very quick to take the Christian title. Traditionally that vote has been larger than 5%. Colin Craig has a better funded campaign the Christian party in previous literations have never gotten to that 5% but he has the extra bit ` the North Shore migrants, etc I have picked up throughout the country that he's doing very well in meetings yes but a lot of time into visiting those areas. He's gone off the beaten track to come into town I think that's a bit appealing to the people. What about Christine Rankin in epsom? No, there will be no problem there. It will be interesting to see. John key is a social liberal. I don't think we would have anticipated this a couple of weeks ago, but I think he is an avid more luxurious place now. John Key will do what he can. We talked about the Tongan Colin Craig's answer to that was unsatisfactory He is firing up the concerns of that community and playing to bigotry people like that will have problems getting invited into government this what we get with MMP. You do have to rely on these minor parties. Same with the Winston and NZ first. There are a lot of people who will vote for them because of their leaders. Do you think that because Winston peters is a bit more obtuse about what is going to be doing after the elections Colin Craig is pretty much sure that its national. The thing that will help him get into the government? That is a potential. I think you're right that John key is in a much stronger coalition position than anyone two months ago. It's really important for Colin Craig to be saying he's ready to go into coalition because then everybody will know that their vote for there will not be wasted. As opposed to Winston who is not announcing. That gives them more strings as to their position Winston peters hasn't made up his mind. He sees that there are two weeks to go. Thank you panel STAY WITH US ` NATIONAL'S HEKIA PARATA AND LABOUR'S CHRIS HIPKINS ARE NEXT. SHOULD WE FUND SMALLER CLASSES? SHOULD TEACHERS GET PERFORMANCE PAY? AND SHOULD ALL KIDS LEARN A LANGUAGE? LOTS TO TALK ABOUT IN OUR EDUCATION DEBATE, NEXT. Welcome back to Q&A. I have Chris Hipkins from Labour Party and Hekia Parata from national. I'll start first with Hekia Parata as the incumbent minister. We hear often that we have one of the best education systems in the world, but we have issues at the tail. What is the issue, is a poverty or is it the parents? Firstly, we have some issue with the gap between the higher performers and the low performers. Will your policy going forward be based on recent research? What is the main issue dragging the bottom section down? The economic inequality and its impact on our education system is getting bigger. What is making those impact is shown to be made outside the classroom. There is a lots happening outside the school gate. What would you do, then, is that food in schools type of thing? It goes much earlier than that, such as the maternal impact. If mothers are healthy, that gives a good start to kids, and if parents are well supported to support their kids. We engaged the family, and we have some significant outreach programs in place. Because the majority of the kids who are in that big pool at the bottom Maori and Pasifika. But you wouldn't support education on the same scale as Labour would in early childhood. We have more qualified teachers in the five years we've been in government than ever before. The services offering the highest quality are having their funding cut under this government. We are saying We will restore that funding. In terms of participation in early child education, New Zealand European are are having the highest achievement. Let's go to the issue of class sizes. Chris, Why do you believe investing 40 million reducing class sizes is the way to go? It increases the engagement between teachers and students. What we are talking about is that over the last five years, teacher numbers have gone up in relative terms. People send kids to private schools because they want smaller class sizes. Private schools make up a relatively small number of our education system. Reducing class-size whether there is good quality teaching won't make any difference. It's about both, not one of the other. If you've got a brilliant teacher who's in their classroom and stay in their classroom and doesn't want to become a manager, why is and that the current government saying to them that they should Be paid less? In every profession, we are able to see what excellence looks like at different stages in it. In New Zealand, 70% of our teachers are their top grade. Primary school teachers are based more in their classrooms, and it's no surprise that they don't want this excellence teacher policy. With the Primary school system is saying is that we want to class them with each other. There is about all teachers who had A say and 93% don't want the excellent teachers system. I think there to see it being good for education. Teachers are looking at what's best for education. They're saying there better ways to spend money to have a direct impact on kids educational achievement. Secondary teachers haven't voted, on the other hand. The issue is that if you win another term, would you force this change on the primary school teachers? We that she said this is an opt-in. The union has said they don't want this change. A GOOD PLACE TO PAUSE. WELCOME BACK. We're going to Chris Hipkins. Are the teachers union being too rigid? No, I think they have the best interests of education at heart. I think working together with the teacher unions is far better than being at loggerheads with them. You don't have trust those unions. They still feel betrayed by national standards. I don't know if that is the case. I know there's public view of that being the case. On national standards, we are in the third year of reporting. We can see the improvement occurring. Why Are teachers still suspicious of the game being played in performance pay? We make it very clear that this is how we know how we're doing year on year and we need to be charging resources where it makes a difference. Chris Hipkins, you would do away with national standards. Why with all the resources we have? It is absolute nonsense. That is simply not the credible evidence to make that claim. There's no consistency. The national standard is not national nor standard. How much impact those national standards have in terms of reducing the range of subjects that children learn and the focus of teachers another areas? Why is the government putting for all provisional support into literacy and numeracy? Funding for arts have been cut. Parents want national standards. I think you'll show statistics that say parents want their children to be achieving but they don't want national standards. These to be quite good information don't give parents good information on how their children are progressing. They're getting actually getting less information nowadays. New Zealand has a highest trust model of this kind in the world. If teachers are spending so much time trying to meet these national standards are they neglecting their teaching? We can not continue the situation we had only came in in 2008 when kids were arriving at year nine not able to read and write at that level. Of course there has to be improvements and we are working on those. Charter schools. You would stop them. We believe in the public education system in New Zealand. We will deal with the charter schools on case-by-case basis. Actually, there are 340 kids in five schools taught by 36 teachers of whom 32 are registered and practicing certificates. They teach by New Zealand curriculum. We've always got back what we've put in. Is it ever going to become big scale? We have commission and evaluation at the first her rounds. Is it going to go into bigger scale where there are hundreds of charter schools? It does remain a niche sort of thing, but you have to look at diversity. So there remains a small part of the system. Te Reo in schools. Would you make compulsory? In terms of making a compulsory secondary language, I wouldn't go that far. But I would like to have a chart where children can learn the language. I rather our secondary schoolchildren have a choice. We know that language acquisition relies on motivation. Making compulsory is the opposite end of that. Would you find more Te Reo teachers? We already are. We have put more support into keeping Te Reo teachers wanted to schools. Would you make computer coding something for kids to learn? There's already a lot happening around schools for this. We will like to have kids to have their own portable digital device so they can learn those codes. On the national, we would be able to continue investment in this area to add to the 700 million. Thank you both. LOTS TO TALK ABOUT WITH OUR PANEL. WE'LL BE BRINGING IN KELSTON BOYS' HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPAL BRIAN EVANS TOO. AND WHAT WAS MAKING POLITICAL NEWS THIS WEEK IN 1976? CONCERNS ABOUT BIG BROTHER. WELCOME BACK, AND LET'S INTRODUCE A NEW ADDITION TO OUR PANEL ` BRIAN EVANS, PRINCIPAL OF AUCKLAND'S KELSTON BOYS' HIGH SCHOOL. Brian, you are pro-performance pay. Why? I would be interested in the conversation. I think it will be a difficult thing to do. I haven't seen anyone come up with a model on how it worked so it will be difficult to implement. I would just like to hear the conversation around it and see if We can find a model that can work. Is the expert teaher system some way to go? It could be, but it would take teachers out of the classroom. What is your view on class sizes? The research shows both sides. At secondary level, it could help, but to spend that much money on it, I'm not sure. I can't speak for the primary school system. But the initiatives has gone down well in the secondary system. For you autonomy is important. I think for a lot of principle that is a key thing. Personally, I like to see more funding to come into our schools. We've always trying to find funding streams where we can do things how we want to do them. We found some avenues, but it often takes teachers out of classrooms and more meetings are involved. Personally like to see some more findings to come in. Brian knows that the enormous strength of Catholic schools these days is to a large degree a part of their ability to work with families. If you look at that and what Hekia Parata was saying earlier of the importance of teachers and the leadership in schools, those things are not disputed by people in education. The tragedy is there's a huge spread of agreement on how education can work. The people most vocal about education are middle-class parents. The problems are by and large not focused and middle-class schools. The second problem is that while the minister speaks of good sense, she's not trusted or supported by her profession, more widely across education. We need a minister they can work with the sector. Hekia Parata sadly has not shown herself to be that minister. That is utterly ridiculous. Of course the unions are always going to hate a national minister in charge of education. The facts are, under this government there've been huge strides made in achievement, especially for Maaori and Pacific Island children. I can speak of national ministers well supported in education. You're talking about 30 years ago, and it was different political climate. At NCEA level and ECA level, money and Pacific Island children are performing much better and that is a result of the programs put forward by Hekia Parata. Big achievement Hekia Parata has made is that we've actually got people, media, focusing on student achievement. Six years ago, you never had debates about student achievement. Today we're talking about all the things that work about student achievement, and that is a Huge tribute to the way she's done her job. No education minister has had a smooth ride. It is a fraught post. The debate around teachers expert is that is not a one-size-fits-all rule. Brian, national standards. That is a primary school things, so I don't have much experience in it. It hasn't been around to have long impact yet, but I think the theory is right. When It is working well, you can get a good education of follow-up. National standards are much less focus on the formative side. You have been in the sector for a while and beEn through different governments. What difference does it make? At the end of the day, you working with kids. I think the current ministry put in place is quite exciting. Corin, 13 more days. I think tomorrow we will get more looks at nationals fiscal numbers. They'll be some pressure coming off from dairy cuts. Why did tax cuts been part of the conversation? They've always been this year. Even labor has said they'll be considering tax cuts. There is a little bit of room in the years ahead, so they have an option to say it is a national party's philosophy to bring down tax where they can. Is anyone here expecting a normal campaigned in the remaining days? Everyone will be trying hard. Most people want it to be over tomorrow. BEFORE WE GO, LET'S LOOK BACK AT WHAT WAS MAKING POLITICAL NEWS THIS WEEK IN 1976. THE NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT DATA BASE ` BETTER KNOWN AS THE WANGANUI COMPUTER ` HAD JUST BEGUN OPERATIONS. IT WAS VERY CONTROVERSIAL, WITH MANY PROTESTS CONCERNED THAT THE PERSONAL DETAILS OF THOUSANDS OF NZERS WOULD BE HELD ON THE POLICE DATABASE. HERE'S AN OFFICIAL SPEAKING ON A MEDIA OPEN DAY. THE INFORMATION WHICH IS ALLOWED, OR OWNED, BY THE DEPARTMENT IS VERY DISCREET SO THAT THE TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL WILL NOT BE ABLE TO OBTAIN POLICE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION NOR JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION AND VICE VERSA. WE RELY IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, OF COURSE, ON THE POLICE AND THE FACT THAT THE TERMINALS WILL BE IN POLICE STATION BUILDINGS. THE POLICE, PRESUMABLY, KEEP PEOPLE IN, SO PRESUMABLY THEY CAN KEEP PEOPLE OUT. MARAE IS NEXT, LOOKING AT THE TE TAI TOKERAU SEAT ` HOW SAFE IS HONE HARAWIRA'S SEAT? NEXT WEEK ` OUR LAST PROGRAMME BEFORE THE ELECTION. WE'LL HAVE INTERVIEWS WITH JOHN KEY AND DAVID CUNLIFFE. Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. THANKS FOR WATCHING AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY GLENNA CASALME AND AMY PARK CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014