GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M SUSAN WOOD. ON THE PROGRAMME THIS SUNDAY ` AN INTERVIEW WITH THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER OF NZ. WILL JOHN KEY GET HIS THIRD TERM? WILL DOTCOM'S BIG REVEAL HAVE ANY IMPACT ON HIS CHANCES? AND DAVID CUNLIFFE ` WILL HE GET THE SURGE IN THE POLLS HIS PARTY NEEDS? CAN HE CONVINCE KIWIS IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE? ALSO ON THE PROGRAMME ` THE OTHER MAIN PARTY. BOTH GREEN LEADERS FRONT UP ON THEIR CHANCES OF INFLUENCING THE NEXT GOVERNMENT. PLUS ` KIM DOTCOM'S SO-CALLED MOMENT OF TRUTH. Any politician in NZ making those statementsthat no mass surveillance is being aimed at Nzers is lying. PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST GLENN GREENWALD SAYS HE HAS THE PROOF. HE'S INTERVIEWED BY POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN. WE'LL ANALYSE ALL THE ISSUES WITH OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER, POLICY AND RESEARCH CONSULTANT MEGAN CAMPBELL AND COMMUNICATIONS CONSULTANT DEBORAH MAHUTA-COYLE. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF Q+A, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. WITH THE ELECTION JUST SIX DAYS AWAY, TODAY WE HAVE THE LEADERS OF THE THREE MAIN PARTIES. WE WILL START WITH NATIONAL LEADER JOHN KEY. PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST GLENN GREENWALD HAS TOLD Q + A THAT NZ SPY AGENCIES HAVE CONDUCTED MASS SURVEILLANCE OF NZERS, DESPITE ASSURANCES TO THE CONTRARY FROM PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY. HE ALSO CLAIMS NZ IS SPYING ON OTHER COUNTRIES, SOME OF THEM ALLIES. MR GREENWALD WORKED WITH AMERICAN WHISTLE-BLOWER EDWARD SNOWDON TO PUBLISH PROOF THAT US AND UK SPY AGENCIES WERE INVOLVED IN WIDESPREAD SURVEILLANCE OF THEIR CITIZENS THROUGH BIG TELECOMMUNICATION COMPANIES LIKE FACEBOOK AND GOOGLE. MR GREENWALD IS ONE OF THREE BIG NAME INTERNATIONAL GUESTS WHO WILL FEATURE AT KIM DOTCOM'S SO CALLED 'MOMENT OF TRUTH' TOMORROW NIGHT. ARE YOU SAYING THAT WILL SHOW THE PRIME MINISTER OF NZ TO BE A LIAR WHEN HE SAYS THE WORDS 'NO MASS SURVEILLANCE OF NZERS?' ANY POLITICIAN IN NZ WHO HAS MADE STATEMENTS LIKE THAT ` THAT THERE'S NO MASS SURVEILLANCE BEING TAKEN PLACE AIMED AT NZERS ` IS A POLITICIAN WHO HAS BEEN DECEIVING THE PUBLIC, AND THAT'S WHAT OUR REPORTING WILL SHOW. JUST BE CLEAR FOR ME ` IS IT THE NSA THAT'S DOING THE MASS SURVEILLANCE, THEN THE AUTHORITIES ARE GOING TO THE NSA TO GET IT, OR IS IT THE GCSB IN NZ DOING ITS OWN MASS SURVEILLANCE? THE GCSB ENGAGES IN MASS SURVEILLANCE OF EXACTLY THE TYPE THEY DENIED TO THE PUBLIC THEY ENGAGED IN IN ORDER TO USE THE PUBLIC TO AGREE TO THE CHANGE IN THIS LAW. AND THAT'S WHAT THIS REPORTING WILL SHOW. SO THAT REPORTING WILL SHOW OUR GCSB ` THE NZ GCSB ` CONDUCTING A MASS SURVEILLANCE? CORRECT. WE'LL HAVE THE FULL INTERVIEW WITH GLENN GREENWALD LATER IN THE PROGRAMME. BUT FIRST CORIN IS HERE WITH NATIONAL PARTY LEADER JOHN KEY. Is the GCSB as be doing their surveillance? Without a shadow of a doubt, they do not undertake mass surveillance against Nzers. Let me run through very quickly. In 2011, to NZ companies were subjected to a cyber attack. The GCSB there were worried about these agencies. In March 2012, they made a proposal for us. We asked them to show us what the sellers would look like. It would be Mass cyber protection. Not looking at content. E-mails? . What ended up happening Sept 2012, I said that the law needs to change. I also see the institution needs to strengthen. Even though Nzers might like it, it's really a Norton antivirus at a high level. Why didn't you tell us? This was a huge issue. There was no mention that the GCSB was considering mass surveillance. Not what the GCSB might have considered. We created a cyber protection program for individual entities. This is about protecting secrets not about getting secrets. For that to work, as I talks about, there is a two-step process. A computer analyses malware. If they want to look at content, they need a warrant. There are agencies in NZ that have this in place. Greenwald has documents that show` His documents show the government getting advice? This is what happens when you have a legal information. You only get half the story When it is illegal. Can you produce documents that show now there is no mass surveillance? This is classified documents. We are not idiots. Snowden has had these documents for over a year. He is turning up five days before an election trying to bamboozle people. He is only seeing one part. He attacked this information. He doesn't realise that this never happened. I was so the document that shows what is taking place. You will be able to show the business case that there is no other surveillance? No. Under the law, for GCSB to assist that, they need a warrant. You say Greenwald is disrupting this campaign. But this is his mission. We are the fifth partner in five eyes. He's getting his expenses paid by Kim Dotcom. Kim Dotcomand his henchmen` they deserve to be called henchmen. Six days before an election bamboozling people. They may be doing that, but they have been working on this for a long time. This is about them and the five eyes network. Kim Dotcom and his henchmen don't believe in five eyes. They don't believe in the need for intelligence gathering. I'm the Prime Minister of NZ. We send sports teams to dangerous places. You're saying we need spying to protect athletes overseas? Let's put it this way. There is a reason why successive governments for decades have undertaken this work. We share information and gather information to protect NZ's property and interests. In the world that Kim Dotcom lives in they are a bunch of conspiracy theorists. As long as I am Prime Minister, I will not send Nzers into an environment without taking precautions. This is a pretext for collecting Mass data. That's nonsense. There is no mass surveillance of Nzers undertaken by the GCSB. We do do work to protect Nzers. What is happening in Australia and the UK? Foreign fighters are returning to locations. Do you think NZ has foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq? Do they present a risk to our country? Are you saying these people will come back and radicalise people? We do work with our partners. I'm not going into every conspiracy that he will make. I will never walk away from that responsibility. Helen Clark didn't walk away from that responsibility. Nothing I am doing Helen Clark didn't do. I am just pushing for clear cyber protection. Cyber protection is more of a threat. Is there a time when a minister needs to go to Nzers and say mass surveillance is necessary? I can't rule out what a future Prime Minister will do. I have said I am not doing it. . You said you can't give us details on your position. ARE we going that way? Are we talking about the companies like Fonterra? I can't talk about those. Cyber protection is about protecting secrets. Let's take MFAT. In the MFAT, our profiles negotiation strategies with immigration and other countries ` don't you think they are entities that want to get that? Last week people clicked on some malware that sent out a denial of service that brought the network down. Previously, we asked for the gold standard. Thank you very much. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQANDA. YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF. EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. UP NEXT ` CORIN'S BACK WITH LABOUR PARTY LEADER DAVID CUNLIFFE AND HIS NEW POLICY FOR KEEPING STRATEGIC ASSETS IN NZ HANDS. AND LATER ` LOOKING BACK AT WHAT WAS MAKING POLITICAL NEWS THIS WEEK. IT'S THE ANNIVERSARY OF A POLICY THAT CHANGED OUR POLITICAL LANDSCAPE. WELCOME TO Q+A, LABOUR LEADER DAVID CUNLIFFE. You heard that interview with key. I want to ask about five eyes. Well Labour take NZ out of the five eyes agreement? . We are committing to NZ security services. We'll repeal the GCSB legislation and replace it with something better for NZ privacy. I can't tell you the outcome of that. The way that it is conductors and our participation in five guys will be part of the review. I can't commit to take NZ out of five eyes. But you Will review it? This is not news. This has been public for some time. If these threats gets bigger and bigger and bigger, can you see yourself as Prime Minister making a business case for more surveillance? I can see the Prime Minister saying that Nzers are not subject to surveillance. If there is evidence to the contrary, this Nzers are subject to surveillance by NZ spy agencies, that is a serious matter. There are some things the Prime Minister said, which are dead right. I'm not saying that there is no place for appropriate security. He is mixing a few things up. It looks like there were hackers or malware. A few days ago. He was throwing a few things together. Fonterra ` we need to protect that. I'm not saying there is no place for a properly conducted cyber protection agency. But Nzers need every assurancethat the personal freedoms are protected. We have a policy for the digital bill of rights. If we pull away from five eyes, I am not saying that you will do that, but if we were to move away and look at that, don't we need to be part of five eyes because the technology ` we need the expertise? NZ may gain more than it contributes from the information flow. But Nzers need to know that that is conducted in a way that is proper and accountable and subject to policies that would reinforce our standing in the world subject to international law. Has the Prime Minister misled NZ's by not telling us at the time that they were considering mass surveillance? This is the first time this has come out. He has come out with a hard news that he was considering it. I think you should have told us. He's only putting it in the public domain because Greenwald will do it tomorrow. The public will make up their own mind. He didn't do it. I have received the same assurances as you this Nzers are not subject to metadata surveillance by NZ spy agencies. I can;t check that. If there is evidence to the contrary, that would be very serious. . One more question at these people henchmen? How should we make this decision in five days? Nzers can see for themselves. If a Prime Minister is calling names, he has no argument. If his arguments were sound` He's coming here` that's not the relevant point. For a Prime Minister to call people. henchmen is beneath the dignity of his office. Dotcom's party is a party that you may need to rely on. I have been clear that dotcom's party will not be part of our government. Let's move on to asset sales. . Our policy is called NZ Inc. It moves half of the division flows from SOEs into a part menaced by the NZ superannuation fund to manage NZ assets. With a clean technology overlay because we will take revenues from the oil industry and increased revenue levels to use that to fund investments in renewable energy. . They are very good at it. They had a 25% return last year. But there is a difference. That is a passive investment fund. This fund has a different mandate. Invest in strategic NZ assets as a value chains for key NZ products. Secondly, investment in clean technology. . You will be investing in things that the private sector won't invest in? Not necessarily. But a little company like bio Victoria that made a natural sweetener couldn't get funded in NZ and went to the United States. IT's not buying back assets. It could. This brings me to the second part of NZ Inc. A share will be created in each of the remaining SOEs and the mixed ownership companies which will invest in the crown an inalienable ownership of those assets. That may change the law? They may. But that will be a very public thing to do. There's not many assets there. Kiwi bank, Kiwi rail. This bank has sold everything they think they can sell. Yes they have. But it does raise the issue is managing more separately the best way to do it or should we think of investing as the muscle? Our policy is to do a portfolio review of SOE Holdings and ask whether we getting the best for future Nzers. There are 90,000 who can't get ahead. Haven't the timeS changed? NZ has a lot of assets th're just owned in a different way. Three quarters of the capital that we import into NZ is sucked up in real estate and land banking and speculation. We have to shift the NZ economy from speculation to innovation, high-tech economy. NZ INC Will be right behind this AFTER THE BREAK ` THE GREEN PARTY LEADERS FRONT UP ON WHAT ROLE THEY'D LIKE TO PLAY IN THE NEXT GOVERNMENT. THE GREENS ARE AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH IN THE LATEST ONE NEWS COLMAR BRUNTON POLL. AT 14%, THEY WOULD HAVE 18 SEATS IN THE NEXT PARLIAMENT. CO-LEADERS RUSSEL NORMAN AND METIRIA TUREI JOIN ME NOW. Russel Norman, we have just heard David Cunliffe said he would review of position and five eyes. We will review the current arrangements. The Prime Minister has finally admitted they were contemplating mass surveillance. What the Prime Minister is telling us now is in spite of everything he told a public at the time, he was privately contemplating an illegal expansion of mass surveillance. It didn't happen. We need to have some sort of protection. This is a very important point. It is critical to separate cyber protection. It will work much better at the cyber protection functionality was separated from GCSB. GCSB share or information through the five eyes. It should be separated from the spying. Metiria Turei, the poll ` greens at a high, labour at alow. We have momentum. Labour can take care of their own issues. We are focused on maximising the Green party vote. It is working. You may get the best ever votes, but still in on the sidelines. This will come down to voter turnout. I'm not worried about Labour's polls. I'm worried about our own. We are doing better. Russel Norman, you are clearly worried. You talked about working with national and labour. We havevery focused on getting a change of government. We have said that if we are in opposition, we will deal with the issue. You are very strong. You are the strongest ever,and you never know power. We were able to achieve $400 million for the health of children and older people. We are absolutely focused on changing the government. The cleaner, fairer Aotearoa. We know that the momentum is growing. The greens are doing extremely well. Could you be the dominant opposition? We are focused on 15%. We have got all our fiscals costed. Materia, do you think he was technically wrong about talking with national? It wasn't wrong., National will lead New Zealand to another hundred thousand children in poverty. We all want clean water. Why don't you work with national to get the water clean? When I started my rivers campaign... we have been effective at putting the pressure across the board and cleaning up rivers. I don't think we can make the next step with the current government. They are so caught up with dairy intensification. It depends how the numbers fall. That's why we need a new government. We are focused ongetting good policies. Getting good ministerial positions will be the way to go. VP presidents in incorporations ` if you can get finance Minister... with said that largest party gets to form the Prime Minister. fair enough. What's on the table for you in terms of portfolio? All the social portfolios. I can deliver on ending child poverty through a number of portfolios, including social development and housing. The most important is our policies get through and we get traction. Next Saturday, you may find yourself sitting out of power again. It would be a great thing to go in a different direction. Renewable energy regeneration is the fastest growing sector. We are New Zealand. This is our time. Instead, we have John key trying to take us back into the 1950s. WE'LL HEAR WHAT POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAY MILLER AND THE REST OF THE PANEL HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS AFTER THE BREAK. AND CLAIMS THE PRIME MINISTER HAS MISLED NZERS ABOUT THE EXTENT OF SPYING HERE ` MORE FROM PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST GLENN GREENWALD. LET'S GO TO OUR PANEL NOW ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY; POLICY AND RESEARCH CONSULTANT, FORMER NATIONAL PARTY STAFFER MEGAN CAMPBELL; AND COMMUNICATIONS CONSULTANT DEBORAH MAHUTA-COYLE. Good morning.. when we planned this, I thought we were doing assessment of the campaign. It's about Prime Minister John key's interview with Corin. There was a powerful performance. He's had several weeks to prepare. There was clear that he spent a lot of time trying to anticipate the thing would come out this week. I wish he wouldn't name call. He doesn't need to do that. As Prime Minister, he can the above a lot of that. I thought there was a very impressive performance. There's always that worry that the public would be left outside. He was very claer about no mass surveillance. he enjoys such public effect that people believe him. Greenwald is respected around the worl.D he should have done it after the election on his ownfeet, not with dotcom. Something a lot of people have all the way and said what is the policy? hard thing to sell six days out from an election. It makes people think, 'is he doing this for Winston?' Gets all confused.I agree with you. It's very difficult six days out from an election, to sell this policy. Waitrose they can. Don't we need oil production to have the funds? Both the labouring Greens have gone wrong. I think they have spent that money a few times. They have the regional royalties, now they have this. I think the policy has a lot of merit. people are not getting a clear vision. The Greens are on fire. They had had a good campaign. They will most likely be dragged down by Labour. They have been shackled by Labour for far too long. Three times now, they have been rejected by Labour when it comesto forming a government. They shouldn't campaign with the Greens. They are running a different campaign. I think it would have been a good idea for the Greens to go with national because they would have had three years in government, learning what that's like. It's one thing to get 14% in the polls. But another to govern for a 100% of New Zealanders. They may have lost a little but of popular votes because they would have to be less pure. If by some bizarre situation we end up with Labour actually pulling their weight and getting across the line on Saturday, and we have Greens at least 50% of the size, we have Greens completely without any experience, but all around the Cabinet table. That scares me. When the Green votegoes up, labours is going down. The Greens had to grow their own vote. They can do that as a pure environmental party. The social development part of the Greens is rejected by a lot of voters. Labour is in the mid to low 20s. It is not going to get out of the zone in the next few days. The Greens are going to be very frustrated. There will be some hard conversations to be head. Is Cunliffe going to hold on for dear life? Who was going to replace him? This is the question. Of Labour polls low or tanks on election day, it may mean the leader forcing Resignation. Andrew Little is down there somewhere. If you get 22%... Labour, at the beginning of the campaign` people are asking what sort of government. People are questioning its legitimacy to form a multi-party government. How can a party of 45% be defeated by a party on 20%? Labour have turned their back on Maori. They had not. They think they are the better party to govern for Maori in New Zealand. We have more Maori candidates in winnable spots. Te ururoa flavell is looking good., they may end up with something like two seats. It's been quite a knock for the Maori party. To be rejected by the Labour Party, it's not sending a good message. David Cunliffe has had a good campaign. He has been equal to the Prime Minister in the debates. Phil Goff also campaigned pretty well in 2011. Look what happened. When he said the government was reconsidering some of the gold card he knows exactly how to do it. Election night what's going to happen? I think what's going to happen is national may well end up in the mid-40s in terms of support. Which means it's unlikely that act, United future in the Maori party will be enough. What it means is that they are going to have to look to another party. It either New Zealand first, or the Conservatives. My guess is Winston has the momentum going. He is likely to go over the 5%. Do you think Conservatives will? Very close. It's going to be some sort of New Zealandfirst-national government. I think it'll be a minority or majority national government. I think the Greens won't get as high as 14%, no Conservatives, a lot of Winston. 7 � weeks ` Winston went fishing or a few days. AFTER THE BREAK ` OUR FULL INTERVIEW WITH PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST GLENN GREENWALD. PLUS WE LOOK BACK AT WHAT WAS MAKING POLITICAL NEWS THIS WEEK. IT'S THE ANNIVERSARY OF A POLICY THAT CHANGED THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE. PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST AND LAWYER GLENN GREENWALD SAYS HE HAS PROOF THAT OUR SPY AGENCIES HAVE BEEN CONDUCTING MASS SURVEILLANCE ON NZERS, DESPITE ASSURANCES FROM JOHN KEY. HE'S HERE AS PART OF KIM DOTCOM'S SO CALLED 'MOMENT OF TRUTH' IN AUCKLAND TOMORROW NIGHT. CORIN BEGAN BY ASKING HIM WHAT SORT OF SPYING HAS BEEN GOING ON? WELL, THE ESSENCE OF THE STORY IS, REALLY, THAT WESTERN GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN RADICALLY MISLEADING THEIR CITIZENRIES ABOUT WHAT IS THEY'RE DOING. THEY'VE BEEN CLAIMING FOR MANY YEARS THAT THEY'RE ENGAGED IN VERY TARGETED, SPECIFIC SURVEILLANCE AGAINST PEOPLE BELIEVED TO BE INVOLVED IN TERRORISM AND OTHER FORMS OF VIOLENT OR THREATENING BEHAVIOUR. AND THE REALITY IS COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE. THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN BUILT BY THESE FIVE COUNTRIES ` THE SO-CALLED FIVE-EYES PARTNERS, WHICH INCLUDES NZ ` THAT IS ONE OF INDISCRIMINATE MASS SURVEILLANCE, THE OBJECTIVE OF WHICH, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DOCUMENT, IS TO CONVERT THE INTERNET INTO FULL-SCALE COMPREHENSIVE SURVEILLANCE, SO THAT EVERYTHING THAT TAKES PLACE BY AND BETWEEN HUMAN BEINGS ON THE INTERNET IS COLLECTED, MONITORED, STORED AND ANALYSED. AND HOW DO THEY DO THAT? THERE ARE SEVERAL WAYS THAT THEY DO THAT. ONE WAY IS TO EXPLOIT THE PHYSICAL STRUCTURE OF THE INTERNET, NAMELY THE CABLES PRIMARILY UNDER WATER THAT TRANSMIT THE DATA THAT` THEY CAN INTERCEPT THAT DATA? > THEY JUST SIMPLY INVADE THE CABLES AND SUCK IT ALL OUT. THEY REDEPOSIT IT INTO THEIR OWN DEPOSITORIES. OTHER WAYS INCLUDE PUTTING DEVICES ON COMPUTERS ELECTRONICALLY THAT ALLOW THEM TO WATCH WHAT USERS ARE DOING, AS WELL AS COMPELLING OR COERCING PRIVATE COMPANIES LIKE FACEBOOK, GOOGLE OR YAHOO TO TURN OVER DATA TO THEM. AND IS THERE ANYTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT THIS, THOUGH? THERE IS CERTAINLY` THERE ARE CERTAINLY LAWS IN NZ THAT THE GOVERNMENT HERE, I BELIEVE, ACKNOWLEDGES ARE VIOLATED WHEN THEY USED THE SURVEILLANCE APPARATUS TO SPY, NOT ON FOREIGN CITIZENS FOR TERRORISM PURPOSES, BUT ON CITIZENS AND LEGAL RESIDENTS OF NZ. THERE ARE CERTAINLY COURTS IN THE UNITED STATES THAT HAVE FOUND THAT THE INDISCRIMINATE COLLECTION OF COMMUNICATION DATA ABOUT THE AMERICAN CITIZENS VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTION. THERE ARE EU RULINGS THAT HAVE SAID THE SAME THING. SO THERE ARE COURTS DECIDING ALL THE TIME THAT THESE THINGS ARE ILLEGAL. I SAY THAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, AND PRESUMABLY, NZ'S ADMINISTRATION, AS WELL, SAY THIS IS ESSENTIAL IN THE DAY AND AGE WE LIVE IN, WITH THE THREAT OF TERRORISM, THAT TO PROTECT CITIZENS, THEY MUST DO THIS. UNFORTUNATELY, AFTER THE 9-11 ATTACKS, GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STAND UP AND THROW AROUND THE WORD 'TERRORISM' OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN AS AN EXPLOITIVE MEANS OF PUTTING THE POPULATION IN FEAR AND COMPELLING THEM TO ACQUIESCE TO WHATEVER THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO DO. AND SO ESSENTIALLY, THE MESSAGE THAT'S BEING SENT IS 'WE'RE DOING ALL THESE THINGS IN SECRET, 'AND EVEN THOUGH WE'VE ALWAYS TOLD YOU WE LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY, 'YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHAT IT IS WE'RE DOING, 'AND YOU SHOULDN'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT IS WE'RE DOING 'BECAUSE WE HAVE TO KEEP YOU SAFE.' AND WHAT THE DOCUMENTS HAVE LET THESE COUNTRIES UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE SPYING HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH TERRORISM ` THAT TERRORISM IS THE PRETEXT THAT ALLOWS THESE GOVERNMENTS TO SPY ON THEIR ON CITIZENS EN MASSE, BUT IS NOT THE ACTUAL REASON THAT THE SPYING IS BEING DONE. YOU SAY 'MASS'. ARE YOU SAYING, AS PART OF THE FIVE EYES, THAT NZ'S GCSB CONDUCTS MASS SURVEILLANCE ON NZERS? ONE OF THE PRINCIPAL MOTIVES I HAD IN WANTING TO DO REPORTING ON NZ WAS THAT IN CONNECTION WITH THE INTERNET BILL THAT WAS PASSED LAST YEAR DESIGNED TO RECTIFY THE ILLEGAL SPYING THAT TOOK PLACE IN NZ, THE NZ GOVERNMENT MADE A VARIETY OF STATEMENTS ` PRINCIPALLY THAT THEY DON'T ENGAGE IN MASS SURVEILLANCE AT ALL, AND SPECIFICALLY NOT AT NZ CITIZENS. AND THERE ARE DOCUMENTS THAT CALL INTO SERIOUS QUESTION THE TRUTHFULNESS OF THOSE CLAIMS. AND WE'VE BEEN SPENDING MONTHS DOING THE REPORTING AND ARE VERY CLOSE TO DIVULGING THE REPORTING THAT I THINK WILL LET NZ CITIZENS DECIDE WHETHER THAT WAS TRUTHFUL. SO WILL THAT 'REPORTING' THAT YOU PRESUMABLY HAD THAT MOMENT OF TRUTH, ARE YOU SAYING THAT WILL SHOW THE PRIME MINISTER OF NZ TO BE A LIAR WHEN HE SAYS THE WORDS 'NO MASS SURVEILLANCE OF NZERS'? ANY POLITICIAN IN NZ WHO HAS MADE STATEMENTS LIKE THAT ` THAT THERE'S NO MASS SURVEILLANCE BEING TAKEN PLACE AIMED AT NZERS ` IS A POLITICIAN WHO HAS BEEN DECEIVING THE PUBLIC, AND THAT'S WHAT OUR REPORTING WILL SHOW. JUST BE CLEAR FOR ME ` IS IT THE NSA THAT'S DOING THE MASS SURVEILLANCE, THEN THE NZ AUTHORITIES ARE GOING TO THE NSA TO GET IT, OR IS IT THE GCSB IN NZ DOING ITS OWN MASS SURVEILLANCE? THE GCSB ENGAGES IN MASS SURVEILLANCE OF EXACTLY THE TYPE THEY DENIED TO THE PUBLIC THAT THEY ENGAGED IN IN ORDER TO INDUCE THE PUBLIC TO AGREE TO THE CHANGE IN THIS LAW. AND THAT'S WHAT THIS REPORTING WILL SHOW. SO THIS REPORTING WILL SHOW OUR GCSB `- THE NZ GCSB ` CONDUCTING A MASS SURVEILLANCE? CORRECT. WILL IT BE, WHEN WE SAY` COS WE KNOW WE'RE GOING TO GET INTO A DEBATE HERE ABOUT SEMANTICS WITH THE AUTHORITIES ` DOES THAT` IS THAT METADATA, OR IS THAT THE ACTUAL CONTENT, SAY, OF PEOPLE'S EMAILS? WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THAT ANY GOVERNMENT DISPUTES THAT THE MASS COLLECTION OF METADATA CONSTITUTES SURVEILLANCE. BECAUSE, WELL, THINK ABOUT WHAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN LEARN ABOUT YOU BY COLLECTING YOUR METADATA. YOUR METADATA SHOWS EVERYONE WITH WHOM YOU'RE SPEAKING, HOW LONG YOU SPEAK, WHERE IT IS YOU SPEAK, SO IF YOU'RE SOMEBODY WHO CALLS AN ABORTION CLINIC OR A DOCTOR WHO SPECIALISES IN HIV, OR A DRUG-AND-ALCOHOL CLINIC OR A SUICIDE HOTLINE OR SOMEBODY LATE AT NIGHT WHO ISN'T YOUR SPOUSE, COLLECTING METADATA ENABLES THE GOVERNMENT OR WHOEVER IS ACCESSING THAT INFORMATION, TO LEARN THE MOST INTIMATE DETAILS ABOUT YOUR LIFE. AND SO WHEN YOU ENGAGE IN THE MASS INDISCRIMINATE COLLECTION OF WHAT THE GOVERNMENT CALLS 'METADATA', THAT IS UNQUESTIONABLY MASS SURVEILLANCE. BECAUSE THEY MAY ARGUE THAT THEY NEED TO GET THE METADATA IN ORDER TO SEE WHO THEY'RE GOING AFTER. AND THAT THE BITS OF METADATA WHICH ARE OF NZ CITIZENS AREN'T IMPORTANT. THEY DON'T LOOK AT THOSE BITS. THEY ONLY LOOK AT THOSE THAT THEY'RE GOING AFTER. THE QUESTION JUST SIMPLY BECOMES WHETHER WE AS CITIZENS, GLOBAL CITIZENS, WANT TO HAVE INTERNET IN WHICH OUR GOVERNMENTS COLLECT THE DATA ABOUT WITH WHOM WE ARE COMMUNICATING AND THE NATION OF OUR COMMUNICATION ACTIVITIES. AND IF YOU'RE A CITIZEN THAT SAYS, 'LOOK, I TRUST POLITICIANS. 'I AM MORE THAN HAPPY TO LET THEM COLLECT ALL OF THIS DATA ABOUT ME 'BECAUSE I TRUST THEM, WITHOUT ANY OVERSIGHT, 'TO USE THEM FOR PROPER PURPOSES', THEN I SUPPOSE YOU'RE SOMEBODY WHO'S NOT GOING TO CARE ABOUT THIS. BUT IF YOU'RE SOMEBODY WHO UNDERSTANDS THE HISTORY OF HOW POLITICAL POWERS EXERCISE AND WHO KNOWS THAT THE MORE PRIVACY THAT'S INVADED, THE MORE POWER THE STATE HAS AND THE FEWER INDIVIDUAL LIBERTIES THE INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN HAS, THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO'S GOING TO BE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR. ULTIMATELY, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT REALLY SHOULD MATTER, REGARDLESS OF YOUR VIEWS ABOUT SURVEILLANCE, IS CONCERN OVER WHETHER OR NOT YOUR GOVERNMENT IS BEING HONEST WITH YOU AND THE PUBLIC STATEMENTS THAT IT MAKES IN ORDER TO CONVINCE YOU TO SUPPORT A PIECE OF LEGISLATION. WILL YOUR REPORTING WHEN YOU'RE HERE ALSO SHOW THE ROLE OF THE FIVE EYES AND NZ'S ROLE IN THE FIVE EYES IN TERMS OF GLOBAL SPYING ON TRADE PARTNERS OR WHOEVER? WE'RE DEFINITELY WORKING ON SPECIFIC STORIES ABOUT THE TARGETS THAT NZ HAS WHEN THEY ENGAGE IN SPYING, AND ALTHOUGH I CAN'T REVEAL THOSE YET, BECAUSE THE REPORTING'S NOT READY, WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT JUST LIKE THE OTHER FOUR MEMBERS OF THE FIVE EYES ALLIANCE, NZ SPIES NOT JUST ON HOSTILE COUNTRIES THAT NZERS PROBABLY WOULD WANT AND EXPECT THEIR GOVERNMENT TO SPY ON BUT ALSO COUNTRIES THAT ARE CLEARLY WESTERN DEMOCRACIES OR ALLIES OF NZ AS WELL. AND DO YOU THINK IT'S LINKED TO TRADE? WHAT ARE THE MOTIVATIONS FOR THAT SPYING? I CAN TALK ABOUT THE REPORTING THAT'S BEEN DONE, AND ONE OF THE THINGS I CAN TELL YOU IS THERE IS A HUGE PILE OF EVIDENCE THAT THE FIVE EYES ALLIANCE USES THE SURVEILLANCE CAPABILITIES THAT THEY'VE CONSTRUCTED LARGELY IN SECRET NOT TO SPY ON TERRORISTS BUT TO SPY, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR ECONOMIC ADVANTAGE. WE'VE DONE REPORTING ABOUT THE SPYING BY THE CANADIAN AGENCY AND THE BRAZILIAN MINISTRY OF MINES AND ENERGY; ABOUT THE SPYING ON THE BRAZILIAN OIL GIANT PETROBRAS ON ECONOMIC CONFERENCES IN LATIN AMERICA; ALL OF WHICH THE NZ AGENCY ` THE GSCB ` HAS BEEN FULLY PARTICIPATING IN AND BEEN BRIEFED ON IN TERMS OF THE INFORMATION THAT'S BEING DISSEMINATED. ARE YOU WORRIED THAT COMING HERE FIVE DAYS OUT FROM A POLLING DAY, THAT'S NOT A LOT OF TIME FOR PEOPLE TO DIGEST YOUR INFORMATION AND FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO MAKE DECISIONS IN AN ELECTION AND WEIGH UP CREDIBILITY OF GOVERNMENT AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS? THAT YOU'RE DISRUPTING THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS HERE? I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW ANY PERSON COULD EVER SAY THAT FOR A JOURNALIST TO TAKE INFORMATION ABOUT GOVERNMENT DECEIT AND GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE AND DISCLOSE IT TO THE PUBLIC THAT THAT COULD BE A DISRUPTION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS. HOW DO YOU THINK NZERS WILL REACT WHEN THEY SEE WHAT YOU SHOW THEM ON MONDAY NIGHT? I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE GONNA BE EXTREMELY SURPRISED THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS WILLING TO STAND UP AND MAKE STATEMENTS SO CATEGORICALLY THAT AT THE VERY BEST ARE HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE AND AT THE VERY WORST ARE OUTRIGHT DECEIT. CORIN ALSO INTERVIEWED DOTCOM'S LAWYER, BOB AMSTERDAM, ABOUT HIS CASE, HOLLYWOOD AND THE TPP. IT'S A FASCINATING WATCH. AND WE'LL HAVE THAT ONLINE TODAY ON OUR WEBSITE, TVNZ.CO.NZ/QANDA BEFORE WE GO, THIS WEEK IN 1937, THE FIRST STATE HOUSE WAS OPENED IN MIRAMAR, WELLINGTON. MOST OF LABOUR'S CABINET WAS THERE TO HELP THE TENANTS MOVE IN; EVEN PRIME MINISTER MICHAEL JOSEPH SAVAGE HELPED CARRY A DINING TABLE THROUGH THE WATCHING CROWD. 50 YEARS LATER, THE ANNIVERSARY WAS MARKED BY LABOUR PRIME MINISTER HELEN CLARK. 50 YEARS AGO, THE COUNTRY'S FIRST STATE HOUSE IN THE WELLINGTON SUBURB OF MIRAMAR WAS OPENED. THE THEN PRIME MINISTER, MICHAEL JOSEPH SAVAGE, HELPED FURNISH THE START OF A MAJOR SOCIAL CHANGE. IT WAS AN OCCASION NEIGHBOURS REMEMBER TO THIS DAY. THEY CARRIED IN THE FURNITURE, AND IT WAS REALLY JUST SOMETHING TO WATCH. TODAY MRS POPE SAW HISTORY REPEATED AS THE NEW MINISTER OF HOUSING, HELEN CLARK, TOOK ON A SHIFTER'S JOB WITH MIRAMAR MP PETER NEILSON. THE NORMALLY QUIET SUBURBAN STREET WAS CROWDED WITH DIGNITARIES PLAYING TRIBUTE TO THE ROLE THE STATE'S PLAYED HOUSING THE HOMELESS. AND THE LITTLE STATE COTTAGE WAS ACCORDED HISTORIC PLACES STATUS. OVER THE DECADES, THE SHAPE OF STATE HOUSING'S CHANGED MARKEDLY. IT'S MOVED FROM BUNGALOWS TO LARGE ESTATES TO NEW HOMES IN KEEPING WITH THE SUBURB. THE GOVERNMENT OWNS OVER 60,000 RENTAL UNITS, BUT HELEN CLARK'S NOT CONTENT. SHE SAYS IN THIS, THE INTERNATIONAL YEAR OF SHELTER, THE RIGHT TO FOOD AND A ROOF ARE PARAMOUNT FOR SOCIAL POLICYMAKING. AFTER THAT, YOU CAN TALK ABOUT HEALTH, EDUCATION AND JOBS. THE RIGHT TO SHELTER IS STILL NOT AS ADEQUATELY ESTABLISHED AS I WOULD LIKE. MS CLARK'S ORDERED A REPORT ON HOMELESSNESS WHICH SHE EXPECTS LATER THIS YEAR. MARAE IS NEXT, LOOKING ACROSS THE TASMAN TO ASK WHY MORE MAORI EXPATS NEED TO VOTE. AND Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. NEXT WEEK THE RESULTS WILL BE IN, SO JOIN US FOR A Q+A SPECIAL FROM 8 TO 10 SUNDAY MORNING ` ALL THE INTERVIEWS AND ANALYSIS YOU'LL NEED FOLLOWING THIS FASCINATING ELECTION. I'M BACK TONIGHT ON SUNDAY WITH AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH ARIANA HUFFINGTON. YOU CAN SEE HER AFTER THE NEWS AT 7. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS, AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 8. CAPTIONS BY TOM WILSON AND JUNE YEOW. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014