NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014 NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. AND I'M PATRICK GOWER. THIS MORNING, THE FIVE MAIN LEADERS PITCH FOR YOUR VOTES. A PROVEN TRACK RECORD OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS, BUT MOST OF ALL, THE PLAN TO GROW OUR ECONOMY. I WANT NZ TO BE THE FAIREST, MOST DECENT SOCIETY IN THE WORLD. THE GREENS ARE VERY FOCUSED ON THE BIG ISSUES, WHETHER IT'S THE COST OF LMNG, WHETHER IT'S THE EXTINCTION OF THE MAUI'S DOLPHIN. WE'RE AGAINST THE SELL-OUT OF THIS COUNTRY'S ASSETS. WE'RE AGAINST RACISM. WE'RE AGAINST SEPARATISM. WE'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT WE HAD SOMETHING TO OFFER NZ, AND IT'S TURNING OUT THAT NZ SUPPORTS THAT IDEA. THE POLITICIANS WHO WILL DECIDE THE NEXT GOVERNMENT JOIN US IN THIS 1.5 HOUR SPECIAL. HOW WOULD JOHN KEY OR DAVID CUNLIFFE LOOK TO FORM A GOVERNMENT? IS RUSSEL NORMAN PREPARING THE ESCAPE HATCH? AND WHAT WOULD COLIN CRAIG WANT IF HE GETS INTO GOVERNMENT? PLUS WE CROSS TO WINSTON PETERS IN LEVIN. IF NZ FIRST HOLDS THE BALANCE OF POWER, WHAT CAN WE EXPECT? THEN THE MAN WHO BROUGHT THE EDWARD SNOWDEN LEAKS TO THE WORLD. JOURNALIST GLENN GREENWALD GIVES THE NATION HIS FIRST NZ INTERVIEW. WHO ARE WE SPYING ON, AND WHO IS SPYING ON US? AND HAS OUR GOVERNMENT BEEN TELLING THE TRUTH? AND LATER, TORBEN AKEL TAKES THE PULSE OF THE THREE BELLWETHER COMMUNITIES. CORBETTAND EGO'S SATIRE. AND ON THE PANEL, MIKE WILLIAMS AND MATTHEW HOOTON. GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US THIS MORNING. TO FIT EVERYTHING IN, WE'RE ON AIR FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF. 50% MORE AT NO EXTRA COST. AND IF YOU WANT TO CHIP IN, PLEASE TEXT 3330 FOR 50C. EMAIL THE NATION AT... OR WE'RE ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK. WE'VE GOT THE TOP FIVE POLLING PARTY LEADERS TODAY, BUT FIRST, PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY. I SPOKE TO HIM FIRST THING THIS MORNING AND BEGAN BYASKING HIM POST-ELECTION, WHO WOULD HE PREFER TO FORM A COALITION WITH? WINSTON PETERS OR COLIN CRAIG? THE BEST-CASE SCENARIO IS WE COULD GET THERE ON OUR OWN. IT DOESN'T MEAN WE WON'T GO AND TALK TO PEOPLE AND FORM AGREEMENTS WITH THEM AFTERWARDS, BUT THAT'S THE EASIEST SCENARIO FOR ME. LOOK, IN THE END- OF COURSE, BUT YOU'RE A REALIST, AND IT IS MMP. YEP, AND SO WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THIS. LOOK, YOU KNOW, WE BELIEVE VERY STRONGLY THAT WE'VE DELIVERED AS A GOOD GOVERNMENT OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS ECONOMICALLY AND ACROSS A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT FRONTS. WE WANT TO CONTINUE DOING THAT, AND WE BELIEVE THAT'S DELIVERING FOR NEW ZEALANDERS AND THEIR FAMILIES. AND IF NEW ZEALANDERS WANT TO SEE A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT RETURN BECAUSE IT CAN DELIVER FOR FAMILIES AND GROW THE ECONOMY AND ALL THE OTHER DIFFERENT THINGS, OUR MAIN ARGUMENT IS GIVE YOUR PARTY VOTE TO NATIONAL. BUT COULD YOU WORK WITH BOTH OF THEM? COULD YOU DO A DEAL WITH BOTH OF THEM? AT THE SAME TIME, DO YOU MEAN? LOOK, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE IN THE MMP, OF COURSE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, PARTIES ALWAYS HAVE TO FIND A WAY THROUGH. OTHERWISE WE'VE GOT TO HAVE ANOTHER ELECTION. SO YOU SAW THAT IN 2005, WHERE HELEN CLARK, YOU KNOW, PUT TOGETHER A DEAL. I THINK IT WAS THE 'O5 ELECTION WITH UNITED AND WITH WINSTON PETERS. WELL, GIVEN THAT YOU'RE SAYING ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE INTERESTING CHOICES YOU MAY BE FACED WITH AFTER THE ELECTION. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT WINSTON PETERS AND WHAT YOU CALLA BIG SHOPPING LIST. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS. THAT'S HIS LIST OF BOTTOM LINES - ASSET BUY-BACKS, SENDING MIGRANTS TO THE REGIONS FOR FIVE YEARS, HANDBRAKE ON FOREIGN BUYERS, NO RACE-BASED PARTIES, PUBLIC KIWISAVER. THAT'S NOT EVEN A DEFINITIVE LIST. SO COULD YOU MEET THOSE REQUIREMENTS? (CHUCKLES) PROBABLY NOT THE WHOLE LOT IN THAT LIST, BUT YOU KNOW, AGAIN- SO WHICH ONES COULD YOU MEET, THEN? WELL, IT WOULD DEPEND, BUT ISN'T THIS THE WAY IT WORKS? IN MY VIEW- ACTUALLY, COME ON, GIVE US AN ANSWER. WHICH ONES COULD YOU WORK WITH, IF NOT THE WHOLE LIST? WELL, OBVIOUSLY, THE POINT I WAS GONNA MAKE IS YOU'RE THE BIGGEST PARTY AND YOU'RE THE BIGGEST PARTY BYA CONSIDERABLE MARGIN, THERE'S A SORT OF VIEW, I THINK, TAKEN ACROSS POLITICAL PARTIES, THAT GIVES YOU THE MOST LEVERAGE. SO THAT'S THE POINT. WE- BUT YOU'LL STILL HAVE TO DO A DEAL, DON'T YOU? CAN YOU GIVE ME A CLEAR ANSWER? WHICH ONES COULD YOU KIND OF SEE SOME WIGGLE ROOM? WELL, THE TRUTH IS I DON'T KNOW WHICH OF HIS LONG SHOPPING LIST HE WOULD COME BACK AND SAY- YOU KNOW, EVEN IF HE WAS PREPARED TO WORK WITH NATIONAL, WHICH IS NOTAGIVEN. I MEAN, HE MIGHT BE PREPARED TO, AND HE MIGHT NOT. I DON'T KNOW THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER TO THAT. BUT ON THE BASIS THAT HE COMES BACK, OF COURSE YOU'LL HAVE TO FIND YOUR WAY THROUGH SOME OF THOSE THINGS. SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MIGRANTS GOING TO THE REGIONS, WE ALREADY HAVE THAT AS A POLICY. YOU GET MORE POINTS AT THE MOMENT IF YOU ARE PREPARED TO GO TO THE REGIONS. SO OF COURSE THERE'LL BE WAYS OF SORT OF TWEAKING POLICIES ALL THE WAY. SO, IN THE END, I DON'T KNOW IS THE BOTTOM LINE. BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT IF YOU WANNA HAVE STRONG, OPEN, CONFIDENT NEW ZEALAND, THEN IN THE END, THAT'S ONLY GONNA GET DRIVEN OFF NATIONAL'S POLICIES. OK, WELL, SO IF YOU... IF THAT SCENARIO EVENTUATES, WHERE YOU, SAY, YOU CAN'T COME TO AN ARRANGEMENT WITH HIM -AND THE LAST COUPLE OF 3 NEWS RESEARCH POLLS HAVE YOU JUST SHORT OF A MAJORITY, AND LET'S SAY YOU ARE AT ODDS WITH WINSTON PETERS - WOULD YOU GO TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL WITH A MINORITY? WELL, lT'D BE MY LEAST-PREFERRED OPTION, OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE WE'RE ABOUT STRONG AND STABLE GOVERNMENT, AND WE'VE PROVIDED STRONG AND STABLE GOVERNMENT, AND YEAH, WHEN WE SAY THAT, I THINK PEOPLE SORT OF SAY, 'OK, WELL, YEAH, OF COURSE. YEAH, A STRONG AND STABLE GOVERNMENT.' BUT, YOU KNOW, IN NEW ZEALAND'S HISTORY, WE HAVEN'T ALWAYS SEEN THAT. YES, I KNOW YOU'RE SAYING THAT IT'S YOUR LEAST-FAVOURED OPTION, BUT I'M ASKING, WOULD YOU STILL GIVE ITA CRACK IF THAT'S WHAT YOU FACED? WELL, I WOULD RATHER THAN GO BACK AND HAVE ANOTHER ELECTION BECAUSE I DON'T THINK NEW ZEALANDERS WOULD THANK US FOR HAVING ANOTHER ELECTION. AND IF YOU LOOK AT STEPHEN HARPER IN CANADA, HE PROVED QUITE SUCCESSFULLY HE COULD RUN A MINORITY GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE IN THE END, ALLA MINORITY GOVERNMENT MEANS IS EVERYTHING CASE BY CASE. YOU HAVE TO FIND AGREEMENT WITH YOUR PARTNERS. IF THERE'S A CONFIDENCE-AND-SUPPLY MOTION, BASICALLY A CONFIDENCE MOTION IN THE GOVERNMENT, THE SMALL PARTIES HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER THEY WANT TO VOTE AGAINST YOU AND FORM ANOTHER ELECTION. BUT IF THEY DO, HISTORY TELLS YOU SMALL PARTIES GET DECIMATED AS A RESULT OF THAT. BUT- ISN'T THAT, THEN-? AREN'T YOU ISSUING, THEN, A CHALLENGE TO THE LIKES OF WINSTON PETERS? ISN'T THAT A CHALLENGE? YOU'RE SAYING, 'I'M THE BIGGEST FISH. 'IF I HAVE TO- IT'S NOT MY PREFERRED OPTION, BUT IF I HAVE TO, I CAN GO WITHOUT YOU.' THAT'S A CHALLENGE, ISN'T IT? IT'S NOT SO MUCH A CHALLENGE. FIRSTLY, THE REAL POINT HERE IS THAT HISTORY SHOWS YOU THAT WITH ALL OF THESE PARTIES THAT WE COULD WORK WITH, THEY HAVE IN THE END FORMED GOVERNMENTS. THEY MAY NOT GET EVERY WIN THEY WANT. THEY MAY NOT GET EVERYTHING THEY WANT. BUT, IN THE END, MY VIEW OF THE POLITICAL PARTIES WE COULD WORK WITH IS THAT THEY'VE SHOWN THAT THEY CAN BE RESPONSIBLE, AND THEY WILL FORM A GOVERNMENT. BUT SURELY YOU MUST BE PLANNING FOR EVERY CONTINGENCY, AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. THAT YOU WOULD BE... YOU SAID, 'I'D BE MORE THAN HAPPY RUNNING A MINORITY GOVERNMENT 'WITH CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY.' SO YOU'RE PREPARED TO DO IT? YEAH, LOOK, IN THE END, RATHER THAN SAY... WHAT I DON'T WANT TO DO IS LOOK DOWN THE BARREL OF A CAMERA, YOU KNOW, THREE WEEKS AFTER THE ELECTION AND SAY TO NEW ZEALANDERS, 'WE CAN'T FORM A GOVERNMENT OR NO ONE CAN FORM A GOVERNMENT. SO WE'RE HAVING ANOTHER ELECTION.' SO HOW CONFIDENTARE YOU THAT IF YOU GET INTO A MEXICAN STAND-OFF WITH WINSTON PETERS, HOW CONFIDENT ARE YOU YOU CAN STARE HIM DOWN? BECAUSE THAT IS BASICALLY A BLUFF. 'I'M GONNA GO TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL. I'M GONNA GO WITH A MINORITY, 'AND I DARE YOU TO PUT THE PUBLIC BACK TO THE POLLS.' WELL, WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE, BUT OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE RUN MINORITY GOVERNMENTS. WHAT HISTORY SHOWS YOU, THOUGH, IS THAT IN ALL PROBABILITY, WHETHER IT'S THE CONSERVATIVES, WHETHER IT'S NEW ZEALAND FIRST, WHETHER IT'S ACT, UNITED OR THE MAORI PARTY, IN THE END, THOSE POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN NOT RETURNING NEW ZEALAND BACK TO ANOTHER ELECTION. OK, THEN. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SPOKE TO WINSTON PETERS? HAVE YOU GOT HIS NUMBER IN YOUR PHONE? YEAH, I'VE GOT HIS NUMBER IN MY PHONE. I SPOKE TO HIM... IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN JUST, 'HELLO, WINSTON,' THEN, YEAH, I'VE SPOKEN TO HIM A COUPLE OF TIMES WHEN WE'VE BEEN AWAY TOGETHER OVERSEAS ON MISSIONS THAT I'VE LED. SO YOU'RE KEEPING-? IN RECENT DAYS, HAVE YOU KEPT THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION OPEN? WELL, THERE'S NO DIRECT LINES OF COMMUNICATION AT THE MOMENT AT ALL. BUT HE WOULDN'T EXPECT THAT. WE WOULDN'T EXPECT THAT, AND THAT'S ALSO TRUE OF ACT, WHO WE HAVE A VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH. IN TERMS OF COLIN- LET'S CUT TO THE CHASE REGARDING COLIN CRAIG. HE IS HOVERING AROUND 4.6%. IS A VOTE FOR THE CONSERVATIVES A WASTED VOTE? IT COULD BE. I MEAN, THAT'S THE RISK, ISN'T IT? I MEAN, IN THE END, IF THEY GET UNDER 5%, THEN, YES, IT COULD BE A WASTED VOTE, ALTHOUGH IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING IF WE POLL, YOU KNOW, A BIG NUMBER - LATE 40S - THEN WE GET AT LEAST HALF OF THAT VOTE. SO YOU'RE HEDGING YOUR BETS THERE? IT COULD BE AWASTE OF VOTE, YOU'RE SAYING? BECAUSE IF HE GETS ABOVE 5%, IT'S NOT. (CHUCKLES) NO, EXACTLY. SO WHATARE YOU TELLING CENTRE-RIGHT VOTERS IN THIS LAST WEEK, AND PLEASE DON'T GIVE ME THE 'PARTY-VOTE NATIONAL' LINE. WHAT ARE YOU TELLING THEM? WHAT IS YOUR CLEAR MESSAGE TO THEM ABOUT COLIN CRAIG IN THIS WEEK, WITH HIM HOVERING ABOUT 4.6%? YEAH, SO, SADLY, IAM GONNA DISAPPOINT YOU. SO GRIP THE SEAT. BUT THE ANSWER IS DON'T SECOND-GUESS THE POLLS. GO OUT THERE AND GIVE YOUR VOTE TO NATIONAL. ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES THIS ELECTION HAS BEEN CHILD POVERTY, AND YOU HAVE SAID- JUST LAST YEAR, YOU SAID, 'WE ARE PROUD OF THE GOVERNMENTS RECORD TACKLING CHILD POVERTY.' DO YOU STAND BY THAT? ABSOLUTELY, I DO. SO, CHILD POVERTY'S A VERY LONG-TERM ISSUE IN NZ. I MEAN, WE CAN THROW AROUND ALL SORTS OF NUMBERS WE LIKE, BUT IF YOU LOOK BACK ON THE LAST NINE YEARS OF THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT, AND THEN IN THE TIME THAT I'VE BEEN PRIME MINISTER, THERE'S BEEN A GROUP OF, YOU KNOW, YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS THAT HAVE BEEN LMNG BELOW THE LINE, AND THAT NUMBER VARIES A BIT BUT NOT- HASN'T VERY DRAMATICALLY. SO YOU STAND BY-? YOU STAND BY THAT RECORD, THEN? THE GOVERNMENTS RECORD AT TACKLING CHILD POVERTY? YOU'RE PROUD OF IT, YES? YES, BECAUSE- OK, BUT I JUST WANT TO- NO, I WANT TO DELVE INTO THIS BECAUSE, JUST LAST WEEK, YOU TOLD THE SYDNEY MORNING HERALD, AND I'M QUOTING YOU HERE, 'OUR OPPONENTS SAY MORE CHILDREN ARE LMNG IN CHILD POVERTY THAN WHEN WE CAME INTO OFFICE, 'AND THAT IS PROBABLY RIGHT,' YOU SAY. SO MORE KIDS IN POVERTY. ARE YOU PROUD OF THAT TOO? NO, BUT I THINK YOU HAVE TO- WELL, THE POINT I WAS GONNA MAKE IS A FEW THINGS- SO YOU'RE NOT PROUD OF THAT? YOU'RE NOT PROUD OF THAT RECORD? NO, I'M PROUD OF WHAT WE'VE DONE IN TERMS OF ADDRESSING CHILD POVERTY, AND THE REASON- BUT YOU ACCEPT THAT THE NUMBERS HAVE GONE UP UNDER YOUR WATCH, AND YOU'RE NOT PROUD OF THAT? NOT NECESSARILY. IT'S VERY CLOSE. WELL, YOU SAID IT, MR KEY. YOU SAID IT. YOU'RE QUOTED IN THE SYDNEY MORNING HERALD AS SAYING THAT IT'S GONE UP UNDER YOUR WATCH. WELL, IF YOU GO AND HAVE A LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, RIGHT, THEYARE VERY CLOSE TO WHEN THE POINT WE CAME IN, AND THEY'RE LESS THAN WHEN LABOUR WAS IN OFFICE IN 2001 AND 2004. BUT THE POINT I WAS MAKING THERE, AND IT'S THE RIGHT POINT, IS IN THE WORST OF THE RECESSION, GO AND LOOK ATANY OF THE RIGHT-WING COMMENTARY, IT WAS TO CUT WORKING FOR FAMILIES. IT WAS CUT ACCOMMODATION SUPPLEMENTS. IT WASN'T TO SUPPORT PEOPLE IN NEED. AND THE GOVERNMENT - MY GOVERNMENT - TOOK A REALLY STRONG VIEW. WE'RE GONNA SUPPORT THOSE FAMILIES, AND WE WOULDN'TABANDON THEM. SO, FIRSTLY, IAM PROUD OF THAT- BUT THAT'S THE POINT, ISN'T IT? AND VVE WOULDN'T ABANDON THEM. SO, FIRSTLY, IAM PROUD OF THAT- BUT THAT'S THE POINT, ISN'T IT? NO, NO. LET ME FINISH COS THIS IS A FAIR POINT- NO, NO. ISN'T THAT THE POINT, MR KEY? YOU RAISED THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS. YOUR GOVERNMENT BORROWED MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT TO STOP THIS PROBLEM GROWING. YET YOU ADMIT THAT MORE CHILDREN ARE LMNG IN POVERTY THAN WHEN YOU TOOK OFFICE? BUT THAT NUMBER'S DRAMATICALLY DECLINING. SO, IF YOU GO AND HAVE A LOOK AT, SAY, CHILDREN THATARE LMNG- BUT HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE PROUD OF THAT? OH, JUST LET- LET ME- HANG ON. HEY. HEY. LISA, DON'T BE SILLY. LET ME FINISH. LET ME FINISH. WELL, LET ME FINISH THE ANSWER, AND I'LL GIVE YOU A COMPLETE ANSWER. SO, WE HAVE STOOD BEHIND THOSE CHILDREN. THE SECOND THING IS, YES, THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS IS OBVIOUSLY TOUGHEST ON LOW-INCOME PEOPLE. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE. BUT WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING IS WE'VE BEEN GENERATING JOBS THROUGH ALL THE ECONOMIC POLICIES THAT WE HAVE. 83,000 IN THE LAST 12 MONTHS. 150,000 COMING IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS. THE THIRD THING THAT'S HAPPENED IS IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING AROUND YOUNG PEOPLE GOING ON THE DPB EQUIVALENT IS ITS ATA 40% LOW THAN IT WAS IN 2009. THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY ON THE DPB OVERALL IS AT 1988 LOW. 30,000 LESS CHILDREN ARE LMNG IN WELFARE-BASED HOMES TODAY THAN THEY WERE TWO YEARS AGO. SO THE POINT IS THE NUMBER IS ROUGHLY- WERE TWO YEARS AGO. SO THE POINT IS THE NUMBER IS ROUGHLY- OWENZ WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. BUT MY POINT IS IT'S A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE, COS PEOPLE THROWAROUND SILLY NUMBERS OR SOME SORT OF STATEMENT LIKE YOU'VE MADE AND DON'T ACCEPT THIS IS A VERY LONG- THAT'S THE STATEMENT YOU MADE TO THE SYDNEY MORNING HERALD, MR KEY. NO, THE STATEMENT I MADE IS I'M PROUD OF WHAT I'M ACHIEVING BECAUSE WE'VE GOTA VERY LONG- WE'VE ONLY GOTA LITTLE BIT OF TIME LEFT, SO I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ONE MORE THING. GLENN GREENWALD, THE INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, IS GOING TO BE ON THIS SHOW SHORTLY. WHAT DO YOU THINK HE'S GOT ON NEW ZEALAND, AND SHOULD YOU BE WORRIED? DON'T KNOW, BUT KIM DOTCOM MIGHT NOT LIKE SURVEILLANCE AGENCIES OR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES. FAIR ENOUGH. HE'S GOT HIS OWN REASONS, AND HE CAN LOOK HIMSELF IN THE MIRROR AND ASK HIMSELF WHY. BUT FOR OTHER NEW ZEALANDERS, THERE IS A RISK IN NEW ZEALAND. IT'S MUCH SMALLER THAN OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT THERE IS A RISK. AND AS PRIME MINISTER, I HAVE TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO PROTECT NEW ZEALANDERS. ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. JOHN KEY, LEADER OF THE NATIONAL PARTY, THANK YOU. AND STILL TO COME -ARE WE BEING SPIED ON, AND WHO CAN WE TRUST. INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST GLENN GREENWALD IS LIVE, BUT THIS MORNING WE'RE GOING TO LOOK BACK AT HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE CAMPAIGN GOING INTO EACH AD BREAK, STARTING WITH SOME OF THE DEBATES. STEPHEN DOESN'T WANT TO LISTEN TO WHAT NZERS THINK. THIS IS WHAT NZER'S BELIEVE. THEY DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO YOUR RUBBISH. YOU'RE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THIS DEBATE. TO YOUR RUBBISH. IF I OWN A HOUSE IN A TRUST, DO I PAYA CAPITAL GAINS TAX ON IT? AUDIENCE LAUGHS MR ENGLISH? YOUR NEW IDEA? OH, WELL, LOOK, THE... SO DOES DAVID CUNLIFFE HAVE ANYTHING UP HIS SLEEVE FOR THE LAST WEEK OF THE CAMPAIGN? HE'S WITH PADDY. YES, DAVID CUNLIFFE, LET'S LOOK AT THE POLLS. AND ANY WAY YOU SLICE OR DICE IT, YOU'VE GOTA LOT OF CONVINCING TO DO WITH VOTERS TO GET THAT LEFT BLOCK ACROSS THE LINE. HOWARE YOU GOING TO DO IT? HOW ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE THOSE NUMBERS ADD UP? WELL, LET ME SAY THIS. WE'RE GOING TO WIN THIS ELECTION. THERE'S A NUMBER OF POLLS RECENTLY THAT SHOW NATIONALAT 45%, 46% IN BOTH THE TV3 AND TV ONE POLLS. THAT'S THE DANGER ZONE FOR NATIONAL, BECAUSE IT MEANS WE'RE ONLYA COUPLE OF PERCENT OFF A LEFT-RIGHT BALANCE TIP, AND THAT'S DOABLE. BUT YOU'RE NOT, ACTUALLY. YOU'RE ACTUALLY 5% OFF A LEFT-RIGHT TIP. YOU NEED TO FIND 5%. YOU MOVE 2% FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER, THAT'S A 4% CHANGE, BECAUSE YOU GO FROM THE RIGHT TO THE LEFT. THAT'S A 4% DIFFERENCE. 2.5% MOVE - THAT'S A 5% GAP CLOSE. THAT IS VERY DOABLE IN THE LAST SEVEN DAYS. THAT'S YOUR JOB. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO IS MEANT TO MOVE THAT CENTRE VOTE. THAT'S RIGHT. THATS YOUR JOB. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO IS MEANT TO MOVE THAT CENTRE VOTE. THAT'S RIGHT. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO HASN'T BEEN MOVING THE CENTRE VOTE. THE GREENS ARE DOING THEIR JOB; NEW ZEALAND FIRSTARE DOING THEIR JOB. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO'S GOT TO DO IT. HOW IS LABOUR GOING TO DO IT? WHAT HAVE YOU GOT UP YOUR SLEEVE? HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING UP YOUR SLEEVE? YES, INDEED, WE DO. AND LET ME JUST LAY OUT THE PROGRAMME. THERE ARE FOUR THINGS THAT I WANT TO TOUCH ON. OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE RUNNING ON A 'VOTE POSITIVE' CAMPAIGN, AND OUR GROUNDING VALUES ARE TO PUT PEOPLE FIRST AND THAT EVERY KIWI MATTERS. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT BUILDING A STRONG, SMART, SUSTAINABLE ECONOMY AND ONE THAT NEW ZEALAND CAN OWN - AND WE'RE GOING TO BE SAYING MORE ABOUT THAT OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS - THAT DELIVERS BETTER JOBS AND HIGHER WAGES, BECAUSE EVERYBODY KNOWS THE GAP BETWEEN THE HAVES AND THE HAVE-NOTS HAS JUST GOT TOO WIDE. WE KNOW THERE'S A HOUSING CRISIS. THAT'S WHY WE'RE GOING TO BE BUILDING 100,000 NEW HOMES, AND WE KNOW WE NEED TO GIVE THE BEST START TO ALL OUR KIDS, NOT JUST SOME. AND THOSE ARE POLICIES THATARE CONNECTING ON THE GROUND. THEY ARE GREAT FOR NEW ZEALAND. WE KNOW ALL THIS, BUT WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO GET THAT EXTRA PERCENT? YOU'VE GOT ABOUT $1 O0 MILLION, $200 MILLION IN THE KITTY THERE. ARE WE GOING TO SEE A POLICY THAT STARTS TO CHANGE THINGS? HAVE YOU GOT SOMETHING TO THROW OUT THERE? WELL, YOU MAY VERY WELL THINK SO, BUT I COULDN'T YET POSSIBLY COMMENT, PADDY. WHAT I WILL SAY IS THAT OVER THE NEXT SEVEN DAYS, WEARE GOING TO BE GOING AROUND THE CLOCK FROM DAWN TILL JUSTABOUT THE NEXT DAWN, CONNECTING WITH VOTERS IN THEIR WORKPLACES, IN OUR SHOPPING MALLS, ALL AROUND THE MAIN CENTRES, ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY. AND HERE'S TWO OTHER THINGS- IS ITA STATE-ASSET BUY-BACK? IS THAT WHAT THAT MONEY IS FOR? IS THAT WHY YOU HAVE THAT? YOU CAN COUNT PRETTY WELL, AND YOU KNOW THAT THERE ISN'T ENOUGH FISCAL HEADROOM TO GO AROUND BUYING BACK A WHOLE LOT OF STATE ASSETS. BUT I KNOW THERE'S $100 MILLION, $200 MILLION THERE. THATS THE START OF A FUND, ISN'T IT? AND I THINK YOU CAN PROBABLY PREDICT THAT WE WILL DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND INNOVATIVE AND INTERESTING THAT WILL REFLECT OUR CORE VALUES. LET ME SAYAGAIN -A STRONG, SMART, SUSTAINABLE ECONOMY- NEW ZEALAND OWNED? LET ME SAYAGAIN -A STRONG, SMART, SUSTAINABLE ECONOMY- NEW ZEALAND OWNED? WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT NEW ZEALAND CAN OWN. WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT NEW ZEALAND CAN OWN. SO WILL WE SEE SOME SORT OF FUND THIS WEEK USING-? I'M NOT GOING TO GO BEYOND THAT TODAY, BUT WHAT I WILL SAY IS THAT WE'VE HAD OUR THINKING CAPS ON, AND WE DO BELIEVE THAT WE CAN MAKE A POSITIVE DIFFERENCE FOR NEW ZEALANDERS IN AWAY THAT SUPPORTS THAT ECONOMIC TRAJECTORY THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. WE DON'T JUST WANT TO BE THE FARM. BEING A FARM IS GREAT, AND THERE'S A PLACE FOR MINING, BUT WE'VE GOT TO ADD VALUE TO WHAT WE PRODUCE, BECAUSE IT'S GOT TO EARN MORE ON THE WORLD STAGE SO WE CAN PAY MORE TO OUR PEOPLE. YEAH, SO SOME SORT OF FUND. NOW LET'S MOVE ON TO RUSSEL NORMAN THIS WEEK TALKING UP DEALING WITH THE NATIONAL PARTY. IT'S DEFEATIST TALK. WELL, YOU'D HAVE TO ASK HIM ABOUT THAT. WHAT I UNDERSTAND THEY'VE BEEN UP TO IS TRYING TO TALK TO A FEW PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE NATIONAL VOTING ON ECONOMIC ISSUES WHO CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT. THAT'S UP TO THEM. WHAT I KNOW- THEY'RE TALKING TO NATIONAL. THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE DO WHEN THEY KNOW THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE. NO, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING FORA FEW CROSSOVER VOTES, AND METIRIA TUREI IN THE ODT TODAY HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, AS HAVE BEEN THE ASSURANCES THAT WE'VE RECEIVED, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE WORKING WITH LABOUR, AND THAT'S IMPORTANT. SO YOU THINK YOU HONESTLY ARE GOING TO STAND HERE AND SAY THAT YOU THINK IT'S HELPFUL FOR RUSSEL NORMAN TO TALK ABOUT DEALING WITH NATIONAL ONE WEEK OUT FROM THE ELECTION? WELL, ACTUALLY, I'M NOT STANDING. I'M SITTING, PADDY. LET ME SAY THIS, AS I HAVE ALL THE WAY ALONG- I APOLOGISE. (LAUGHS) I'M TALLER THAN THAT, HONESTLY, AS YOU ARE. THERE WILL BE THREE PARTIES IN THE GOVERNMENT, RIGHT. THE CORE OF IT WILL BE THE LABOUR PARTY. WE'RE THE LARGEST PARTY OF THE OPPOSITION. WE'LL BE THE LARGEST PARTY IN THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT. ON ONE SIDE, THERE IS THE GREEN PARTY WITH WHOM WE HAVE A LONG-STANDING AND POSITIVE RELATIONSHIP, FOR WHOM WE HAVE HIGH REGARD. ON THE OTHER SIDE, THERE IS WINSTON PETERS AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST. OF COURSE HE PLAYS HIS CARDS CLOSE, BUT I DON'T THINK WINSTON WANTS HIS LEGACY TO BE PROPPING UPATHIRD TERM NATIONAL GOVERNMENT THAT IS BESET WITH THE KIND OF PROBLEMS THAT THEY HAVE. I REALLY DON'T BELIEVE THAT. IN THAT KIND OF GOVERNMENT, WOULD THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER BE THE GREENS? THEY WANTA CO-DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. YOU'RE OK WITH THAT CONCEPT? WELL, LET ME BE REALLY CLEAR THAT WE HAVE SAID THAT WE WILL RESERVE THE FINANCE PORTFOLIO FOR LABOUR, BECAUSE THE PUBLIC NEEDS CONFIDENCE ABOUT THE BOOKS. BUT DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. CONFIDENCE ABOUT THE BOOKS. BUT DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. PUTTING THATASIDE, THE REST OF IT, WHAT I'VE SAID IS IT'S A MATTER, FIRSTLY, FOR THE PUBLIC TO SEE HOW THE NUMBERS LOOK, AND, SECONDLY, FOR NEGOTIATION. AND I CAN'T GO BEYOND THAT TODAY. BUT CO-DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER - THE TWO OF THEM WORKING TOGETHER. ARE YOU OK WITH THAT? THREE. WE COULD HAVE FOUR. WHO KNOWS? IT COULD BE A COLLECTIVE. NO, NO. I'M JUST KIDDING YOU ON THAT, BUT IT IS A MATTER FOR NEGOTIATIONS. I MEAN, YOU COULD HAVE RUSSEL, METIRIAAND WINSTON. IT'S A MATTER FOR NEGOTIATIONS, AND WHAT COUNTS OVER THE NEXT SEVEN DAYS, FIRSTLY, IS THAT NEW ZEALANDERS REALISE THAT THEY GETA DIFFERENT FUTURE. THEY GETA DIFFERENT KIND OF COUNTRY BASED ON WHAT THEY DECIDE OVER THE NEXT WEEK. AND THAT THOSE DIFFERENCES ARE CLEAR. THE CENTRE-RIGHT GIVES THEM A DIFFERENT FUTURE FROM THE CENTRE-LEFT, AND THAT WE ARE ALL ABOUT JOBS, HOMES AND FAMILIES AND PUTTING PEOPLE FIRST, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT NEW ZEALANDERS WOULD WANT. YOU'RE TALKING THERE ABOUTA THREE-WAY, BASICALLY. THE GREENS AND WINSTON. YOU RULED OUT THE MAORI PARTY. WHY DID YOU DO THAT? WAS THATA MISTAKE? ABSOLUTELY NOT. DID YOU DO THAT? WAS THATA MISTAKE? ABSOLUTELY NOT. WAS IT AN ACCIDENT? NO. AND LET ME JUST FIRSTLY GO TO THE PRINCIPLE, AND THEN I'LL TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS. THE PRINCIPLE OF THIS IS CLEAR - THAT WE WILL TALK WITH A RANGE OF OTHER PARTIES AFTER THE ELECTION, BECAUSE THERE MAY BE OTHERS WHO WANT TO SUPPORT A NEW GOVERNMENT, AND THAT WILL BE A MATTER FOR THEM. NOW, THAT COULD POTENTIALLY INCLUDE THE MAORI PARTY. IT COULD INCLUDE OTHERS. WHAT I'VE SAID, THOUGH, FOR PUBLIC CERTAINTY IS THAT THEY NEED TO KNOW- OTHERS. WHAT I'VE SAID, THOUGH, FOR PUBLIC CERTAINTY IS THAT THEY NEED TO KNOW- NOT WITH WINSTON, THOUGH. THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT WILL BE STRONG AND STABLE AND SMART AND SUSTAINABLE AND THAT, THEREFORE, THEY NEED TO KNOW THE CORE OF IT WILL BE LIMITED TO A SMALL NUMBER OF PARTIES AROUND THE CABINET TABLE. UNLIKE NATIONAL, WHO MAY BE REQUIRING THE ACT PARTY, GOD FORBID, THE CONSERVATIVES. CAN YOU THINK OF ANYTHING WORSE? AND OTHER RAGGLE-TAGGLES. WE ARE BEING VERY CLEAR. IT'S LABOUR, THE GREENS, NZ FIRST. YOU HAVE RULED OUT THREE POTENTIALLY GAME-CHANGING MAORI SEATS. ARE YOU SAYING TODAY THAT YOU WOULD RATHER GO INTO OPPOSITION THAN USE THOSE THREE VOTES? I HAVEN'T RULED OUT TALKING TO THEM AT ALL. I HAVEN'T RULED OUT WORKING IN SOME WAY WITH THE MAORI PARTY. BUT I HAVE BEEN CLEAR WITH VOTERS, VVHICH IS THAT A VOTE FOR THE MAORI PARTY IS ESSENTIALLYA VOTE FOR NATIONAL. THIS IS IMPORTANT- NO, NO, NO. SO YOU HAVEN'T RULED OUT THE MAORI PARTY? THIS IS IMPORTANT. I'VE RULED THEM OUT FROM BEING AROUND THE CABINET TABLE. THAT'S WHAT I'VE ALREADY SAID. LET ME SAY THIS. LABOUR- TABLE. THAT'S WHAT I'VE ALREADY SAID. LET ME SAY THIS. LABOUR- YOU'LL LOSE THEM STRAIGHT AWAY. LABOUR IS THE MAORI PARTY. WE HAVE 14 MAORI CANDIDATES. WE HAVE THE TREATY PARTNERSHIP AT OUR HEART, AND WE HAVE THE ASPIRATIONS OF MAORIDOM CARRYING IN OUR CLOAK. THAT IS THE MAORI PARTY - THE LABOUR PARTY. AND IT'S 14 FANTASTIC CANDIDATES. AND IF MAORI WANT TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT, AND THEY WANTA DEAL THAT'S FAIRER FOR THEM, IT'S A PARTY VOTE LABOUR AND A CANDIDATE VOTE FOR THE LABOUR MAORI CANDIDATES THAT DELIVERS THAT. WINSTON PETERS HAS RULED OUT THE MAORI PARTY. HE HAS RULED OUT MANA. YOU ARE UTTERLY DEPENDENT ON WINSTON. LOOK, WE HAVE A LONG-STANDING RELATIONSHIP WITH WINSTON. WE BELIEVE- WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU TALKED TO HIM? OH, WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. YOU TALKED TO HIM? OH, WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. WHAT ABOUT? OH, WE WERE IN THE KORU LOUNGE, ACTUALLY, AND WE HAD A PLEASANT LITTLE CHAT ABOUT A RANGE OF THINGS, AND I'M NOT GOING INTO IT. WHAT ABOUTA PROGRAMME TO BUY BACK STATE ASSETS OR SOMETHING? I HAVEN'T DISCUSSED THAT WITH HIM, BUT IT'S AN INNOVATIVE IDEA, PADDY. LISTEN, YOU SWORE HAND ON HEART IN THE DEBATE THE OTHER NIGHTABOUT TACKLING CHILD POVERTY. ABSOLUTELY, AND I MEANT IT. AND WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? YOU'VE ONLY GOT $100 MILLION OR $200 MILLION. YOU'VE ALREADY SAID TODAY THAT THAT'S GOING TO THE ASSET FUND. WHERE'S THE EXTRA MONEY? I'M SURE YOU'VE NOTICED A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT WE'VE ALREADY PROMISED HAND ON HEART. THE FIRST IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE $2 AN HOUR. THAT PUTS $4000 AYEAR IN THE POCKETS OF MINIMUM WAGE EARNERS. THAT WILL LIFT KIDS OUT OF POVERTY. THE SECOND THING IS SIX MONTHS' PAID PARENTAL LEAVE AND $60 AWEEK PER CHILD. HELL OF A LOT BETTER THAN A BLOCK OF CHEESE. THE EXPERTS SAY, AND I'M TALKING ABOUT THE CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER RUSSELL WILLS AND JONATHAN BOSTON, THAT THAT IS NOT ENOUGH. RUSSELL WILLS SAYS YOU'VE GOT TO RAISE BENEFITS. WOULD A LABOUR GOVERNMENT RAISE BENEFITS TO HELP CHILD POVERTY? WELL, HERE'S A NEWS FLASH FOR ANYONE WHO DIDN'T GET IT THE FIRST TIME ROUND, AND THOSE ARE ALL VERY GOOD PEOPLE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. OUR BEST START PACKAGE GOES INCLUDING TO BENEFICIARY FAMILIES. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE WORKING TO GET THE BEST START PAYMENT OF $60 A WEEK. AND WE'RE- OUTSIDE OF THAT, ARE YOU PREPARED TO RAISE BENEFITS? BENEFITS ARE ALREADY GOING TO BE INFLATION INDEXED UNDER US. BEYOND THAT, WE ARE MAKING SURE THAT WE RUN FISCAL SURPLUSES AND PAYING DOWN DEBT. NOW, LET ME JUST BE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT SOME OTHER THINGS THAT WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT WILL HELP PEOPLE MOVE FROM WELFARE TO WORK. FIRSTLY, WE'RE RAISING THE ABATEMENT LEVELS FORM $30 AWEEK TO $150. WE'RE GETTING RID OF SECONDARY TAX. WE HAVE TO BE QUICK HERE. GLENN GREENWALD IS SITTING OUTSIDE. PERSONAL VIEW HERE - DO YOU THINK THE PRIME MINISTER WAS TELLING THE TRUTH WHEN HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT KIM DOTCOM BEFORE THAT RAID? DO YOU THINK HE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH? I THINK WE SHOULD SEE THE EVIDENCE BEFORE WE MAKE UP OUR MINDS ON THAT. DO YOU THINK THE PRIME MINISTER'S TELLING THE TRUTH OR NOT? I SUSPECT HE WAS BEING A LITTLE BIT GLIB. SURE. NOW, LISTEN, HERE'S AN IMPORTANT QUESTION. IF LABOUR LOSES THIS WEEKEND, ARE YOU GOING TO STAY ON AS LEADER? WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT? I HAVE GOT SEVEN DAYS TO GET OUR VOTE TO WHERE I WANT IT, AND, AS I SAY- IF LABOUR LOSES, ARE YOU GOING TO STAY ON AS LEADER OR NOT? I AM GOING TO GET EVERY SINGLE VOTE OUT OVER THE NEXT SEVEN DAYS, AND I REALLY HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT AFTER THE WEEKEND AT THIS POINT. OF COURSE YOU HAVE. IF LABOUR LOSES, WILL DAVID CUNLIFFE TRY AND STAY ON AS LABOUR LEADER? IAM FOCUSSING ON THIS ELECTION, PADDY GOWER, AND THAT IS ALL YOU'RE GOING TO GET OUT OF ME TODAY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, DAVID CUNLIFFE. GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE. GOING TO GET OUT OF ME TODAY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, DAVID CUNLIFFE. GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE. THANK YOU. CHEERS. RUSSEL NORMAN, COLIN CRAIG AND WINSTON PETERS ARE WITH US LATER, AND AFTER THE BREAK, MIKE WILLIAMS AND MATTHEW HOOTON ON THE BIG TWO. BUT FIRST, IT'S SHAPED THE CAMPAIGN - DIRTY POLITICS. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ. I READ A COUPLE OF CHAPTERS THIS MORNING, AND I FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW, GOING AND HAVING A SHOWER. NOTHING TO DO WITH US. IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH MY OFFICE. DIRTY, UNDERHAND TACTICS. ARE YOU NOW ON YOUR LAST, LAST CHANCE? OOH, WELL, YOU'LL HAVE TO DISCUSS THAT WITH THE PRIME MINISTER. MIKE WILLIAMS AND PR CONSULTANT AND RIGHT-WING COMMENTATOR MATTHEW HOOTON. GOOD MORNING TO YOU ALL. WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THOSE TWO INTERVIEWS? HOW DID THEY PERFORM? JOHN KEY VS DAVID CUNLIFFE. WELL, I THINK IT WAS AN ABSOLUTELY CLEAR WIN TO CUNLIFFE IF YOU'RE GONNA LOOK AT IT THAT WAY. I THOUGHT THAT WAS ONE OF THE WORST INTERVIEWS JOHN KEY'S DONE. HE STARTED OFF BEING VERY EVASIVE. YOU, LISA, FORCED HIM TO ADMIT HE'D ADMITTED CHILD POVERTY WAS GETTING WORSE. AND AT ONE POINT, HE SEEMED CLOSE TO LOSING HIS RAG. NOW, THE CONVERSE OF THAT WAS CUNLIFFE. HE STARTED OFF BY CORRECTING YOUR MATHEMATICS. HE PROMOTED THE POLICY WELL, AND HE WASN'T ON THE BACK FOOT IN THE WAY KEY WAS. SO I THINK YOU'VE SEEN ONE LEADER WEARING OUTAND THE OTHER ONE HITTING HIS STRAPS. MATFHEW, WHAT DO YOU RECKON? WELL, I THINK MIKE OVERSTATES THINGS, BUT I THINK THE TRUE- ESPECIALLY WITH MY MATHEMATICS. I THINK HE GAVE HIS OWN VERSION OF ONE FORM OF MATHS. I THINK WHAT WE SAW WAS- REFLECTS WHAT THE ACTUAL REALITY OF THE ELECTION IS. WE SAWA PRIME MINISTER WHO IS PROBABLY NOTAS CONFIDENT OF WINNING AS MOST VOTERS THINK HE IS AND A DAVID CUNLIFFE WHO'S MORE CONFIDENT OF WINNING THAN MOST VOTERS THINK HE IS, AND JUST REFLECTS THE FACT THAT THE ELECTION IS TOO CLOSE TO CALL. AND IT ALSO REFLECTS THE FACT THAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PROSPECT OF GOING TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL WITH A MINORITY. IS HE SERIOUS. PADDY, OR IS HE JUST GMNG A WARNING SIGNAL TO WINSTON PETERS? UH, I THINK HE'S GMNGAWARNING SIGNAL, BUT HE'S SERIOUS AS WELL. IF JOHN KEY DOESN'T HAVE THOSE NUMBERS AND WINSTON PETERS STARTS TO MUCK AROUND, HE WILL GET IN THAT CROWN LIMO, AND HE WILL HEAD UP TO JERRY MATEPARAE'S AND HE WILL SAY, 'LET'S GET THE PARLIAMENT GOING AND SEE WHAT WINSTON PETERS ACTUALLY DOES IF WE CALL THE NUMBERS 'AND WE CALL CONFIDENCE IN THE HOUSE.' I THINK THAT IS JOHN KEY'S TRUMP CARD. THAT HE WILL EFFECTIVELY STACK BRAND KEY AND ALL OF THE POWER THAT'S BEHIND THAT AND THE NUMBERS IN PARLIAMENT UP AND SAY, 'VOTE ME DOWN IF YOU WANT. LET'S GO TO ANOTHER ELECTION.' HE WANTS TO SHOW PEOPLE WHO'S BOSS. THAT IS ALSO WINSTON PETERS' TRUMP CARD, AND I JUST DON'T THINK HE'LL PLAY THAT CARD. I THINK THAT IN THE EVENT THAT- YOU MEAN WINSTON COULD GET IN HIS CAR AND GO, 'I'VE GOTA MINORITY GOVERNMENT?' EXACTLY. WINSTON COULD GET IN HIS CAR AND GO AND SEE THE GOVERNOR GENERAL AND SAY, 'LOOK, I'VE LINED UP ALL THESE PARTIES BEHIND ME.' GENERAL AND SAY, 'LOOK, I'VE LINED UP ALL THESE PARTIES BEHIND ME.' SO WINSTON BECOMES PRIME MINISTER? ABSOLUTELY. ALLOHUOKLE WELL, STRANGER THINGS HAVE HAPPENED, I GUESS, WITH MMP. I THOUGHT IT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S INTERVIEW THIS MORNING BECAUSE, OF COURSE, HE WILL BE THE CARETAKER GOVERNMENTAFTER THE ELECTION, AND HE CAN CARRY ON UNTIL HE LOSES A VOTE IN PARLIAMENT. AND MAYBE IT IS A BETTER IDEA. INSTEAD OF DEALING AND GOING THROUGH TWO MONTHS OF THE USUAL WINSTON PETERS NONSENSE, MAYBE IT'S BETTER FOR THE PRIME MINISTER TO SAY, 'WE'RE JUST GONNA KEEP GOING TILL WE LOSE THE VOTE.' AND WHAT WE SAW THE PRIME MINISTER BRINGING UP THERE WAS THE STEPHEN HARPER EXAMPLE IN CANADA WHERE HE RAN A MINORITY GOVERNMENT ON CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY; HE ACTUALLY TOOK VOTES ON CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY AND EVENTUALLY GOT AN OUTRIGHT MAJORITY AT A LATER ELECTION. AND SUPPLY AND EVENTUALLY GOT AN OUTRIGHT MAJORITY AT A LATER ELECTION. AND THEY GET ON WELL, STEPHEN HARPER AND- STEPHEN HARPER AND KEY ARE CLOSE. I'M SURE THEY'VE HAD DISCUSSIONS. AMONG ONE OF CANADA'S LONGEST-SERVING PMS. I JUST WANT TO GET INTO DAVID CUNLIFFE THERE GMNG US A Ll'l'I'LE HINT THAT THERE'S SOMETHING MORE TO COME. HE WOULDN'T QUITE TELL US WHAT IT WAS, BUT HE'S SUGGESTING, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME INNOVATION. THERE'S A SURPRISE. WE HAD THE TEASER. NZ OWNING SOMETHING. HE'S GOT $10OM-$200M TO PLAY WITH. YOU SAW HIM TALK THERE THAT HE WOULD BE INNOVATIVE AS WELL. HE WAS TALKING ABOUT NZ OWNERSHIP AND WHATNOT. I THINK IT'S A PROGRAMME TO BUY BACK NZ ASSETS ATA SLOW RATE. YOU MIGHT SEE THEM USING PERHAPS THE ACC OR THE SUPERANNUATION FUND AS WELL, SOME SORT OF DAVID PARKER-TYPE THING. THAT'S BEEN TALKED ABOUT BEFORE. THAT'S A GO-YEAR PROMISE IF YOU'RE DOING IT ON THE NEVERNEVER. THIS LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY SPEAKS PASSIONATELY OR PRETENDS TO SPEAK PASSIONATELY, AS HE DID WITH JOHN CAMPBELL ON TV3'S RECENT DEBATE, TO CARE ABOUT CHILD POVERTY. YET IN THE ALTERNATIVE BUDGET, IT WAS ALL FOR OVER-SSS. IT WAS ALL FOR SUPERANNUITANTS. FREE DOCTORS VISITS. THAT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE. IT IS TRUE, BECAUSE BILL ENGLISH- $60 AWEEK FOR PARENTS WITH YOUNG KIDS. BILL ENGLISH HAD ALREADY DONE THE FREE DOCTORS VISITS FOR UNDER-13S. BILL ENGLISH HAD ALREADY EXTENDED PAID PARENTAL LEAVE, AND LABOUR PUT IT'S PRIORITY WITH THE ELDERLY, SO- THAT IS SIMPLY UNTRUE. IT IS TRUE, AND SO IF I WAS CUNLIFFE, I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR HIM TO DO NOW WOULD BE TO PUT THAT $100M OR $200M INTO SOMETHING SERIOUS, PERHAPS FREE DOCTORS VISITS FOR TEENAGERS AND PEOPLE IN THEIR EARLY 20S. WE'RE GONNA TALK MORE AGAIN LATER, BUT NOW- IN ANY ELECTION, THERE ARE POLLING BOOTHS WHERE THE VOTE COUNT MATCHES THE NATIONWIDE RESULT. THESE POLITICAL BELLWETHERS ARE OFTEN THE SUBJECT OF CLOSE ANALYSIS BY THOSE TRYING TO PREDICT THE NEXT ELECTION. SO WE SENT TORBEN AKEL TO THREE OF THEM FROM 2011 AND FOUND SOME DISQUIET WITH THE STATUS QUO. THE WEST COAST CAN BE SEEN AS A KIND OF BAROMETER OF THE NATION'S POLITICAL MOOD. IN THE LAST THREE ELECTIONS ITS SUPPORT FOR NATIONAL HAS MORE OR LESS MATCHED THEIR NATIONWIDE SUPPORTAS IT HAS LABOUR'S IN THE PAST TWO ELECTIONS. IN 2011, TOO, THREE OF ITS POLLING BOOTHS CLOSELY REFLECTED THE LEFT-RIGHT DMDE. BOOTHS IN HOKITIKA, KARAMEA, AND IN PARTICULAR, GREYMOUTH CENTRAL, WHERE 322 PEOPLE CAST THEIR BALLOTS AT THE HISTORIC REGENT THEATRE. HERE, 52% BACKED NATIONAL AND OTHER PARTIES ON THE RIGHT; 38% LABOURAND OTHERS ON THE LEFT. A FAR CRY FROM THE DAYS WHEN GREYMOUTH WAS DYED-IN-THE-WOOL RED, WHEN IAN TENNANT'S GRANDFATHER BUILT THE REGENT IN THE MID-193OS. WE HAVE HAD CHANGES IN INDUSTRY; WE'VE HAD CHANGES OF POPULATION. THE NEED FOR THE LABOUR PARTY WAS QUITE ACUTE IN ITS EARLY DAYS, AND A LOT OF THOSE NEEDS HAVE DIMINISHED. BUSINESSMAN DREW TALBOYS SAYS THAT'S REFLECTED BY THE WAY LOCALS VOTED IN 2011. IT'S GONE FROM WHAT WAS MORE OF A BLUE-COLLAR AREA TO A LOT MORE BALANCED. SO WHATABOUT THIS ELECTION? WHAT MATTERS MOST IN GREYMOUTH? WELL, FOR STARTERS, NOT DIRTY POLITICS. I THINK THAT'S JUST LIKE A SMOKESCREEN, Y'KNOVV. I THINK IT'S ALL BULLSHIT. DAVID CUNLIFFE IS A PROBLEM FOR SOME. HE'S NOT UP TO IT, QUITE FRANKLY. I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE STAYED WITH THE OTHER GUY. BUT OF MORE CONCERN IS PIKE RIVER. I MEAN, THE PRIME MINISTER HE ACTUALLY PROMISED TO GET THE REMAINS OF THOSE BODIES OUT OF THE MINE. WELL, WE'VE WAITED SINCE, WHAT WAS IT, 2010. IT'S COMING UP FOUR YEARS, AND IT STILL HASN'T HAPPENED. OF THE 40-ODD PEOPLE I SPOKE TO, MOST SAID THEY'LL BE VOTING EXACTLY THE SAME WAYAS THEY DID IN 2011. HOWEVER, IT WOULD SEEM THERE HAS BEEN A SIGNIFICANT SHIFTAWAY FROM THE MAJOR PARTIES. MOST NOTABLY TO THE CONSERVATIVES... I AGREE WITH A LOT OF THE THINGS THEY'RE SAYING. ...AND ALSO THE BAN 1080 PARTY. BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT 1080 HERE. ANOTHER BELLWETHER BOOTH IN 2011 WAS ASHHURST, JUST OUTSIDE PALMERSTON NORTH, IN THE RANGITIKEI ELECTORATE. A TOWN OF ALMOST 2800 PEOPLE, FIVE CHURCHES, TWO FOUR SQUARES AND A COMMUNITY CENTRE WHERE MORE THAN 1400 PEOPLE VOTED IN THE LAST ELECTION. CARETAKER KEN PRATI' SAYS BEING SO CLOSE TO PALMY MEANS ASHHURST HAS A WIDE CROSS-SECTION OF PEOPLE. FROM UNIVERSITY PEOPLE TO RETIREES, MOTHERS, A LOT OF FAMILIES HERE. AND A LOT OF POLITICALLY MINDED PEOPLE TOO. BEING ON COMMITTEES, GOING TO MEETINGS. UM, SHARING RESOURCES WITH EACH OTHER, ESTABLISHING GROUPS THAT SUPPORT THE LOCAL COMMUNITY. AS IN GREYMOUTH, WE ASKED 4O PEOPLE IN ASHHURST ABOUT THEIR VOTING INTENTIONS AND EVEN MORE PEOPLE HERE TOLD US THEY'LL BE VOTING THE SAME WAY AS LAST TIME. AND EVEN MORE PEOPLE HERE TOLD US I'LL BE WINSTON PETERS AGAIN. LAST TIME. AND EVEN MORE PEOPLE HERE TOLD US I'LL BE WINSTON PETERS AGAIN. OK THEN. WHY'S THAT? I THINK HE KEEPS IT REAL. DEFINITELY LABOUR. WHY'S THAT? UM, I JUST THINK THEY HAVE BETTER POLICIES, UM, AND I THINK THEY WILL DO A LOT BETTER THAN NATIONAL. YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO VOTE FOR NATIONAL THIS TIME? ABSOLUTELY, AS I DID LAST ELECTION. IT WAS A BIT OF A NO-BRAINER FOR ME, REALLY. THERE'S NO-ONE ELSE THAT'S REALLY FILLING THE BOOTS. HOWEVER, HERE A QUARTER OF THOSE I SPOKE TO SAID THEY'RE STILL UNDECIDED ABOUT WHO THEY'LL VOTE FOR. CAFE OWNER CRAIG SOWRY BELIEVES MANY ARE LEANING TOWARDS THE MINOR PARTIES. JUST AS A LEASH, TO PULL NATIONAL IN A BIT. OR THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG, AS THE CASE MAY BE. 2011 'S MOST ACCURATE BELLWETHER, THOUGH, WAS HERE AT FOREST LAKE SCHOOL IN A CENTRAL SUBURB OF THE HAMILTON WEST ELECTORATE, WHERE SUPPORT FOR BOTH LABOUR AND NATIONAL HAS MIRRORED THEIR NATIONWIDE RESULTS IN THE PAST FOUR ELECTIONS. PRINCIPAL CHRIS JESSOP SAYS FOREST LAKE IS A DIVERSE AND RAPIDLY-CHANGING SUBURB. THERE ARE POCKETS OF FAMILIES WHO ARE STRUGGLING BUT THEN WE HAVE THE OTHER EXTREME WHERE WE HAVE PROFESSIONAL FAMILIES AND WE HAVE BUSINESS OWNERS, AND SO IT'S- THE WHOLE SPECTRUM IS REPRESENTED IN FOREST LAKE. AND OVER THE ROAD, THE OWNER OF THIS HAIR SALON, EILEEN BRADNOCK, TOLD US HER CLIENTELE HAS BEEN SAYING DIRTY POLITICS HAS BEEN AN UNWELCOME DISTRACTION. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE NOT KNOWING THE POLICIES THATARE BEING PUT FORWARD BY THE PARTIES NOW BECAUSE OF ALL THE STUFF THATS BEEN GOING ON IN THE NEWS. INDEED, OUR STREET POLL FOUND MOST VOTERS HERE TOO WEREN'T SWAYED BY NICKY HAGER'S REVELATIONS. IT'S LIKE IN ANY INDUSTRY. YOU'VE JUST GOTTA LOOK PAST THAT. THEY'RE ALL JUST AS BAD AS EACH OTHER. NEARLY ALL WE SURVEYED IN FOREST LAKE TOLD US THEY HAD DECIDED TO STICK WITH THE SAME PARTY. HERE, THOUGH, ABOUT FIVE OF THE 4O PEOPLE I SPOKE TO SAID THEY'D VOTED LABOUR IN 2011, BUT WOULDN'T BE DOING SO THIS TIME. HOWEVER, IF WE COMBINE THE RESULTS OF OUR THREE STREET SURVEYS, NATIONAL MAY HAVE CAUSE FOR CONCERN TOO. EVEN IF ALL OUR UNDECIDEDS VOTE AS THEY DID IN 2011, BOTH MAJOR PARTIES COULD LOSE BIG CHUNKS OF THEIR SUPPORT. THE BENEFICIARIES BEING THE MINOR PARTIES AND THIS MAN, IN PARTICULAR. JUST AHEAD ON THE NATION - GLENN GREENWALD AND RUSSEL NORMAN. BUT OF COURSE THIS CAMPAIGN SAW AN UNPRECEDENTED RESIGNATION. THE PRIME MINISTERAND THE NATIONAL PARTY HAVE AN ELECTION TO WIN, AND I WISH TO STOP BEING THE SUBJECT OF DAILY DISTRACTIONS. NEW INFORMATION HAS COME TO LIGHT THAT IN MY VIEW MEANS IT'S APPROPRIATE THAT I ACCEPT YOUR RESIGNATION AS A MINISTER. BEHIND THE EDWARD SNOWDEN LEAKS. HIS STORIES BLEW OPEN THE SECRET WORLD OF THE AMERICAN NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY AND THE TOOLS IT USES TO COLLECT DATA ON A MASSIVE SCALE. ITALSO REVEALED MORE ABOUT WHO THE NSA WORKS WITH, INCLUDING NZ SPY AGENCIES. HE'S HERE TO SPEAK AT KIM DOTCOM'S MOMENT OF TRUTH ANNOUNCEMENT ON MONDAY, AND HE'S HERE WITH ME IN THE STUDIO NOW FOR HIS FIRST NZ INTERVIEW. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. NOW FOR HIS FIRST NZ INTERVIEW. IT'S REALLY HARD FOR PEOPLE TO COMPREHEND THE ENORMOUS SCALE OF SPYING THAT YOU'VE DETAILED IN YOUR BOOK. SO, SIMPLY, CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON? THE BEST WAY TO UNDERSTAND IT IS TO LOOK AT THE DOCUMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN PRODUCED BY THESE FIVE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES AND WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT THEIR GOAL, AND WHAT THEIR GOAL IS IS NOTHING LESS THAN TO COLLECT AND STORE THE ENTIRE INTERNET, TO TURN THE INTERNET INTO A LIMITLESS SYSTEM OF MASS SURVEILLANCE WHERE NOTHING THAT IS DONE ON THE INTERNET ENJOYS PRIVACYANY LONGER, AND IT'S NOT JUST AN ASPIRATION; IT'S SOMETHING THEY'RE QUITE CLOSE TO ACHIEVING. SO THIS THING THAT WE ALL THOUGHT WAS GONNA HELP US COMMUNICATE AND CONNECT WITH PEOPLE IS ATOOL THAT'S BEING USED AGAINST US? THE PROBLEM IS THERE WAS A GREAT PROMISE TO THE INTERNET WHEN WE FIRST BECAME TO BE AWARE OF IT, WHICH WAS THAT IT COULD EMPOWER PEOPLE, IT COULD DEMOCRATISE COUNTRIES, IT COULD LIBERALISE HOW HUMAN BEINGS COMMUNICATE WITH ONE ANOTHER, AND THAT WOULD BE TRUE ONLY IF WE MAINTAIN PURE INTERNET FREEDOM, THE ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE WITH ONE ANOTHER AS CITIZENS AND AS ADULTS, FREE OF THE INTRUSION AND MONITORING OF GOVERNMENTS AND OF OTHER PEOPLE AND WE'RE NOW AT THE CROSSROADS WHERE AS CITIZENS, WE HAVE TO DECIDE DO WE WANT THE INTERNET TO BECOME THIS EXTRAORDINARY TOOL OF OPPRESSION AND SURVEILLANCE OR DO WE WANT IT TO REMAIN FREE? SO, HOVV ARE THEY ACTUALLY DOING THIS? HOVV ARE THEY SNOOPING AROUND IN OUR BUSINESS? WELL, THE INTERNET IS A SYSTEM, ESSENTIALLY, OF PHYSICAL DEVICES THAT TRANSMIT DIGITAL DATA, AND THERE'S ALL SORTS OF WAYS THAT THE GOVERNMENT, BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND NZ AND IN THE UK, CANADA AND AUSTRALIA, INVADE THAT SYSTEM, INCLUDING BY TAPPING DIRECTLY INTO THE UNDERWATER CABLES THAT TRANSMIT IT, BY PUTTING DEVICES ON PEOPLE'S COMPUTERS THAT ENABLE THEM TO MONITOR WHAT THE COMPUTERS ARE DOING OR TO GET IT FROM THE PRIVATE COMPANIES THAT MAINTAIN THE DATA, SUCH AS FACEBOOK AND GOOGLE AND YAHOO AND SKYPE AND THE LIKE, AND SO ALL OF THOSE WAYS ARE USED. SO SOMEONE AT HOME COULD UNWITTINGLY, UNKNOWINGLY, HAVE A DEVICE IN THEIR COMPUTER? YEAH, I MEAN, GENERALLY, IT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY BE A PHYSICAL DEVICE THAT GETS PLANTED ON THE COMPUTER, ALTHOUGH THOSE ARE USED, BUT, GENERALLY, IT'S SOME KIND OF A VIRUS OR A DIGITAL MECHANISM THAT LITERALLY ALLOWS GOVERNMENTS- GENERALLY, IT'S SOME KIND OFA VIRUS OR A DIGITAL MECHANISM THAT LITERALLY ALLOWS GOVERNMENTS- YOU OPEN A VIRTUAL DOOR FOR THEM TO COME IN AND SNOOP AROUND. WHERE THEY CAN LITERALLY WATCH EVERY KEYSTROKE THAT YOU ENTER. GIVEN THAT YOU'RE SAYING THEY'RE TAPPING INTO CABLES DIRECTLY, THEY'RE POSSIBLY GETTING STUFF DIRECTLY FROM SERVICE PROVIDERS, ARE NZERS' COMMUNICATIONS BEING CAUGHT UP IN ALL OF THIS? ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I'M HERE AND WHY I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THE NZ PART OF THE REPORTING FOR SEVERAL MONTHS NOW IS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT MADE A VARIETY OF STATEMENTS IN CONNECTION WITH THE NEW SPYING LAW THAT IT WANTED AND WAS ENACTED LAST YEAR TO TRY AND ASSUAGE THE FEARS OF NZERS ABOUT WHAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS DOING, INCLUDING THINGS, LIKE, 'WE DON'T ENGAGE IN MASS SURVEILLANCE,' AND, 'WE DON'T TARGET NZERS INDISCRIMINATELY, UNLESS THEY'RE INVOLVED IN TERRORISM 'OR CYBER CRIMES AND THE LIKE,' AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE WANTED TO DO WAS TO INVESTIGATE THE TRUTH OF THOSE STATEMENTS AND TO DO THE REPORTING THAT WOULD LET NZ CITIZENS KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THEIR GOVERNMENT DECEIVED THEM ABOUT WHAT THESE SPY AGENCIES ARE DOING, AND I CAN TELL YOU - ALTHOUGH I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT THE REPORTING IS YET - I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT WAS AT ALL TRUTHFUL WITH ITS CITIZENS IN CONNECTION WITH THAT BILL. I JUST WANNA READ TO YOU SOMETHING THAT THE PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID IN THE PAST- I'M QUOTING HIM HERE - 'IN TERMS OF WHOLESALE COLLECTION OF METADATA ABOUT NZERS, THAT HASN'T TAKEN PLACE. 'I HAVE ASKED THE AGENCY, THE GCSB, AND THAT IS THE CONFIRMATION I HAVE HAD.' IS HE RIGHT OR IS HE LYING? THIS WORD THAT HE INSERTED INTO THERE, WHOLESALE, MEANS COLLECTION OF EVERY SINGLE METADATA EVENT. WHAT I CAN TELL YOU FOR CERTAIN IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES ENGAGE IN EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNTS OF ANALYSIS OF METADATA, MEANING WHO'S TALKING TO WHO FOR HOW LONG, WHERE THEYARE WHEN THEY SPEAK, ON A MASSIVE, INDISCRIMINATE SCALE, NOT JUST INTERNATIONALLY BUT OF NZERS AS WELL. OK, WELL, THE OTHER THING I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT SPECIFICALLY IS THE FIVE EYES ALLIANCE. ARE WE BIT PLAYERS IN THAT? OR WHAT ARE WE ACTUALLY DOING AS PART OF THAT? THERE ARE NO BIT PLAYERS IN THE FIVE ALLIANCE. OBVIOUSLY, SOME COUNTRIES ARE BIGGER AND SPEND MORE MONEY ON SURVEILLANCE THAN OTHER COUNTRIES WITHIN THE ALLIANCE, AND NZ IS ON THE END OF THE COUNTRIES THAT SPEND FEWER RATHER THAN MORE RESOURCES, BUT NZ SPENDS AN EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNT OF RESOURCES, FOR A COUNTRY OF THIS SIZE, ON ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE, AND EVERY SINGLE THING THAT THE NSA DOES THAT WE HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A COUPLE OF MONTHS INVOLVES NZ DIRECTLY. THEY ARE FULL-FLEDGED ALLIES OF THIS EFFORT. SO, ARE WE SPYING ON ANYONE ON BEHALF OF AMERICA OR ANY OF THE OTHER FIVE EYES COUNTRIES? YES, NZ SPIES ON A VARIETY OF COUNTRIES ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES. WHO ARE WE SPYING ON? THAT'S THE REPORTING THAT WE'RE STILL WORKING ON, AND THAT'S THE REPORTING THAT WE'RE GONNA DO VERY SHORTLY. BUT I CAN TELL YOU FOR CERTAIN THAT THERE ARE THAT THE UNITED STATES- THE NSA IS INCAPABLE OF ACCESSING CERTAIN COUNTRIES BECAUSE OF HOSTILE RELATIONS THEY HAVE WITH THOSE COUNTRIES, AND THEY USE A VARIETY OF ALLIES, INCLUDING NZ, TO SPY ON THOSE COUNTRIES FOR THEM. SO, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOSTILE RELATIONSHIPS THERE. WOULD WE BE SPYING ON CHINA, THEN, FOR THEM? THE GCSB SPIES ON BOTH HOSTILE COUNTRIES AND ALLIES FOR THE UNITED STATES, FOR THE UNITED KINGDOM AS WELL. COUNTRIES THAT PROBABLY NZERS WOULD EXPECT TO FIND ON THE LIST AND THEN COUNTRIES THAT NZERS WOULD SAY, 'WHYARE WE SPYING ON COUNTRIES LIKE THIS THAT ARE OUR ALLIES AND ARE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES?' WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SPYING, WHAT KIND OF SPYING? WHAT DO YOU MEAN? INTERCEPTION OF EMAILS, INTERCEPTION OF TELEPHONE CALLS, COLLECTION OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF META-DATA EVENTS EVERY SINGLE DAY THAT THEN GET STORED AND ANALYSED. ESSENTIALLY, EVERY FORM OF INVASION OF PEOPLE'S COMMUNICATION PRIVACY THAT CAN BE IMAGINED, AND THAT PEOPLE OVER THE LAST YEAR, AS IT'S BEEN REPORTED, ARE NOW WELL AWARE OF. SO, DO YOU MEAN POLITICIANS AND OFFICIALS? I MEAN, YOU GAVE SOME EXAMPLES IN THE BOOK WHERE THE FIVE EYES' REPRESENTATIVES KNEW THAT BRAZILIAN AND MEXICAN OFFICIALS WERE BEING SPIED ON. SO, WHO WOULD THEY COLLECT DATA FROM? WELL, ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING PARTS OF THE REVELATIONS TO ME IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT SPYING. IT'S ABOUT DEMOCRACYAND HONESTY WITH WHICH THESE GOVERNMENTS TREAT THEIR CITIZENRY. AND FOR SO LONG THESE GOVERNMENTS TRIED DEFENDING THE REVELATIONS BY SAYING, 'WE ONLY SPY ON TERRORISTS. 'WE SPY TO PROTECT YOU FROM NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS.' AND YET MUCH OF THE REPORTING THAT WE DID WAS VERY ECONOMIC AND MAJOR. SPYING, FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE BRAZILIAN MINISTRY OF MINES AND ENERGY BY CANADA, WHOSE INDUSTRY- THE LOGGING INDUSTRY HAS A HUGE INTEREST IN WHAT'S GOING ON WITHIN THAT AGENCY. WE'RE SPYING ON THE BRAZILIAN OIL GIANT PETROBRAS, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THE DOCUMENTS WE USE TO DO THAT REPORTING WERE DOCUMENTS PRESENTED AT THE FIVE EYES CONFERENCE, AT WHICH THE NZ AGENCY WAS A PARTICIPANT. SO IT'S AN ECONOMIC IMPERATIVE. IT'S NOT JUST TO SAVE THE WORLD FROM TERRORISM. IN MANY CASES, IT'S AN ECONOMIC IMPERATIVE HERE. THERE IS ABSOLUTELYAN ECONOMIC IMPERATIVE, TRYING TO GAIN ECONOMIC ADVANTAGE. THERE'S DIPLOMATIC REASONS TO DO IT, TO TRYAND WORK OUT WHAT THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES ARE DOING, BUT THERE'S ALSO A QUESTION OF DEMOCRATIC SUBVERSION - OF CONTROLLING ONE'S OWN CITIZENRY BY KNOWING WHAT IT IS THEY'RE SAYING AND DOING. BECAUSE THE THING IS, THE PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID BEFORE, AND HE SAID IT AGAIN ON THIS PROGRAMME THIS MORNING, THAT HE'S SAVING LIVES, BASICALLY, IN ESSENCE, IN EFFECT; HE'S SAVING US FROM A THREAT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN DOING SINCE THE 9/11 ATTACK IS USING TERRORISM TO MANIPULATE THE CITIZENRY, AND THEY INVOKE THE WORD TERRORISM OR THE SPECTRE OF TERRORISM OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO JUSTIFY WHATEVER IT IS THAT THEY'RE DOING. IT'S EXTREMELY EASY FOR POLITICIANS TO SAY, WHAT I'M DOING IS SOMETHING I'M DOING IN SECRET. 'I CAN'T TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT IT, BUT YOU SHOULD TRUST ME TO DO THESE THINGS, 'BECAUSE I'M KEEPING YOU SAFE.' AND ALL THE EVIDENCE WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST YEAR AND HALF IS THAT BY AND LARGE THIS SPYING SYSTEM IS NOT GEARED TOWARD ANYTHING WE WOULD RECOGNISE AS TERRORISM BUT IS GEARED TOWARDS THE KINDS OF CORRUPT MOTIVES THAT WE TYPICALLY ASSOCIATE WITH SUCH PROGRAMMES. BUT DON'T WE NEED TO KNOWABOUT THESE REAL THREATS? DON'T WE NEED TO GATHER THAT INFORMATION? IF THESE AGENCIES WERE USING THIS TECHNOLOGY TO SPY ON AL QAEDA AND TO SPY ON TERRORISTS, TO SPY ON ISIS, THERE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN AN EDWARD SNOWDEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. THERE WOULD BE NO PUBLIC DEBATE. IT'S PRECISELY BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRETEXT AND NOT THE ACTUAL REASON THE SPYING IS BEING USED THAT THERE IS THESE DISCLOSURES AND THERE IS A PUBLIC DEBATE. IF THAT WERE ALL THEY WERE DOING, VERY TARGETED SURVEILLANCE AND MONITORING OF OSAMA BIN LADEN, HIS ASSOCIATES AND ACTUAL EXT REMIST GROUPS, THERE'D BE NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT. IT'S BECAUSE MOST OF IT IS NOT ABOUT THAT. OK, WELL, I WANT TO BE CLEAR HERE, SO DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE GCSB IN NZ IS CONDUCTING MASS SURVEILLANCE ON NZ CITIZENS OR ON SOMEONE ELSE? THE REPORTING THAT WE'RE ABOUT TO DO IS ON THAT VERY QUESTION, AND ALTHOUGH I CAN'T PREVIEW IT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT QUITE READY YET, WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT THE STATEMENT THAT THE GCSB MADE TO NZ CITIZENS LAST YEAR - 'WE DO NOT ENGAGE IN MASS SURVEILLANCE OF NZERS' - IS ONE THAT IS NOT TRUTHFUL. AND I THINK THE REPORTING WILL BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT? BECAUSE I HAPPEN TO HAVE ACCESS TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOCUMENTS IN THE POSSESSION OF THE NSA IN WHICH THEY DISCUSS, BOTH AMONGST THEMSELVES AND WITH THE GCSB AND THE NZ GOVERNMENT, EXACTLY WHAT IT IS THEY'RE DOING. SO, THIS IS BASICALLY THE NZ CHAPTER OF THE SNOWDEN DOCUMENTS? YEAH. NZ IS THE LAST FIVE EYES PARTNER ON WHO WE'RE YET TO DO THE REPORTING, AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY I'M HERE AND WHY I'VE BEEN WORKING FOR SEVERAL MONTHS ON NZ. I WANT TO GO THROUGH A FEW QUICK THINGS WITH YOU WITH THE TIME WE'VE GOT LEFT. SO, DO YOU THINK-? WE'RE ENTERING NEGOTIATIONS OVER THE TRANS-PACIFIC PARTNERSHIP, A BIG TRADE DEAL, WHICH AMERICA IS INVOLVED IN. WOULD WE BE SPYING, OR WOULD ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THAT TREATY BE SPYING ON EACH OTHER IN THE NEGOTIATIONS? WE HAVE PUBLISHED SEVERAL STORIES ALREADY IN WHICH THE FIVE EYES PARTNERS SPY ON THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM THEY'RE NEGOTIATING AS PART OF TRADE AGREEMENTS. PARTNERS SPY ON THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM THEY'RE NEGOTIATING AS PART OF TRADE AGREEMENTS. THE TPPA, DO YOU THINK? I CAN'T- I CAN'T- I CAN ONLY SPECULATE, BECAUSE THE DOCUMENTS THAT I HAVE PREDATE THOSE NEGOTIATIONS. BUT IT WOULD SHOCK ME IF THIS SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM WERE NOT BEING USED TO GAIN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE ON THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM THESE COUNTRIES ARE NEGOTIATING THIS TRADE AGREEMENT. YOUR BOOK INCLUDED DOCUMENTS THAT WERE PRESENTED ATA FIVE EYES MEETING. NZ WAS THERE. IT SHOWED SOPHISTICATED SPYWARE, INCLUDING A THING CALLED XKEYSCORE, WHICH BASICALLY CAPTURES EVERY STROKE OF YOUR KEYBOARD. IT ALSO SAID THAT THEY WERE MAKING THESE TECHNOLOGIES AVAILABLE TO SOME FIVE EYES PARTNERS. DO YOU THINK NZ HAS XKEYSCORE? ARE WE USING IT? YES, NZ HAS ACCESS TO XKEYSCORE. IT USES IT FOR CERTAIN PURPOSES. IT CONTRIBUTES DATA TO XKEYSCORE AS WELL. I THINK IT'S HARD TO- I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHATEVER TECHNOLOGIES THE NSA HAS, THE NZ AGENCY, THE GCSB, HAS ACCESS TO IT AND USES IT AND CONTRIBUTES TO IT. THEY ARE VERY MUCH A FULL-SCALE PARTICIPANT IN ALL OF THE SPYING THAT WE'VE BEEN DOCUMENTING, WHICH REALLY IS SOMEWHAT INCONSISTENT WITH THE PICTURE THIS GOVERNMENT HAS TRIED TO CREATE. BUT IT COMES BACK TO THAT QUESTION, THOUGH, DOESN'T IT? IF YOU'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE, WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO WORRY ABOUT? WELL, FIRST OF ALL, EVERYONE HAS SOMETHING TO HIDE, WHETHER YOU'VE DONE SOMETHING WRONG OR NOT. IT'S THE REASON WE PUT LOCKS ON OUR BEDROOM AND BATHROOM DOORS AND PROTECT OUR EMAIL AND SOCIAL MEDIAACCOUNTS WITH PASSWORDS. THERE IS NO HUMAN BEING WHO HAS "NOTHING TO HIDE". PRIVACY IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY IMPORTANT PART OF HUMAN FREEDOM. THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF STUDIES THAT SAY, WHEN WE KNOW WE'RE BEING WATCHED OR THINK WE'RE BEING WATCHED, WE ENGAGE IN CONFORMIST BEHAVIOUR; WE LIMIT THE CHOICES; WE DO- SO IT'S AN ASSAULT ON DEMOCRACY. IT'S AN ASSAULT ON DEMOCRACY. IT'S AN ASSAULT ON INDMDUAL FREEDOM, AND EVIDENCE HISTORICALLY PROVES THAT GOVERNMENTS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO USE THIS POWER IN THE DARK OR THEY WILL ABUSE IT FOR ANTI-DEMOCRATIC ENDS. GLENN GREENWALD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. GREAT TO BE WITH YOU. THANK YOU. WELL, THE BEHAVIOUR OF NZ SPIES IS AVERY BIG CONCERN FOR THE GREEN PARTY, AND CO-LEADER RUSSEL NORMAN IS WITH ME NOW. GOOD MORNING, DR NORMAN, AND IF WE JUST PICK ON WHAT GLENN GREENWALD SAID THERE, TALKING ABOUT THE PRIME MINISTER'S DECLARATION THAT OUR AGENCIES AREN'T INVOLVED IN MASS SPYING, BUT GLENN GREENWALD WAS SAYING THEY MAY BE INVOLVED IN MASSIVE, INDISCRIMINATE- SPYING ON A MASSIVE AND INDISCRIMINATE SCALE IN NZ. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT? WELL, I MEAN, IT'S CLEARLY YET ANOTHER REASON TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT. I MEAN, WE'VE GOTA PRIME MINISTER WHO'S IN CHARGE OF THE SECURITY AGENCIES, WHO'S ENABLING THEM AND ALLOWING THEM TO ENGAGE IN MASS SURVEILLANCE. I MEAN, I'M A MEMBER OF THE INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY COMMITTEE, WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE OVERSIGHT. JOHN KEYAND IARE THE LONGEST STANDING CURRENT MEMBERS OF IT. I LEARNED A LOT MORE ABOUT WHAT THE GCSB AND THE SIS ARE DOING FROM GLENN AND FROM SNOWDEN THAN I DID BY BEING ON THAT COMMITTEE, AND SO THATS WHY WE NEED A FULL AND INDEPENDENT INQUIRY INTO THE SPY AGENCIES ONCE WE GETA NEW GOVERNMENT ON SATURDAY. BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A SITUATION WHERE THE PRIME MINISTER, AND OF COURSE THE GCSB, HAS SAID THERE IS NO MASS SURVEILLANCE ON NZERS. IT MAY BE, FROM WHAT GLENN GREENWALD WAS SAYING THERE, THAT THERE IS PERHAPS NOT MASS, COMPLETE SURVEILLANCE, BUT THERE IS MASSIVE, INDISCRIMINATE SPYING OF SOME SORT ON NZERS. AND OF THEIR METADATA, AND SO THAT'S, YOU KNOW, NOT NECESSARILY THE CONTENT OF EVERY PHONE CALL OR THE CONTENT OF EVERY EMAIL, BUT WHO IT WENT TO, HOW LONG YOU'RE ON THE PHONE FOR. ALL THAT KIND OF METADATA, WHICH TELLS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING IN YOUR BEHAVIOUR. AND I JUST WANT TO GO BACK TO THE LAST POINT GLENN MADE ABOUT THE VALUE OF PRIVACY, AND PRIVACY IS LINKED TO FREEDOM. IT'S TREMENDOUSLY IMPORTANT. IT'S ABOUT BEING ABLE TO BE A FULL HUMAN PERSON; IS THAT HAVING SOME PRIVACY IS CRITICAL TO THAT. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS LIKE A- THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT ISSUE, BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN THE RISE OF THE TECHNOLOGY TO ENGAGE IN THIS KIND OF SURVEILLANCE, AND IT REALLY CORRODES OUR DEMOCRACY AND OUR FREEDOM. THAT'S WHY WE NEED A FULLAND INDEPENDENT INQUIRY ONCE WE CAN CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT ON SATURDAY. GLENN GREENWALD ALSO SAYING THERE THAT XKEYSCORE - THAT INVASIVE TECHNOLOGY - IS IN USE IN NZ. WE'VE HAD DENIALS ON THAT AS WELL. YEAH, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY WE'LL SEE THE FULL REPORT. I THINK IT'S GONNA COME OUT IN A FEW DAYS. BUT EVEN WHAT WE'VE SEEN SO FAR IS INCREDIBLY SUGGESTIVE THAT THE NZ GOVERNMENT AS PART OF THE FIVE EYES HAS ACCESS TO THIS NETWORK, AND IT MEANS THAT NZERS' PRIVACY AND FREEDOMS ARE BEING CORRODED, AND THE NZ GCSB IS A PART OF THAT. WHAT DID YOU TAKE FROM GLENN GREENWALD THERE IN TERMS OF TALKING ABOUT THE PRIME MINISTER'S ASSURANCES ABOUT THESE KIND OF ISSUES? GLENN GREENWALD SAID THAT HE HAD BEEN WORKING FOR MONTHS ON THE NZ SIDE OF THINGS WITH THE SNOWDEN DOCUMENTS. DO YOU THINK, FROM THE SOUNDS OF THINGS, THAT HE IS GONNA MAKE THE PRIME MINISTER OUT TO BE A LIAR ON THIS ISSUE? WELL, I MEAN, I GUESS WE'LL SEE. I MEAN, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS- < AND WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF WHAT HE WAS SAYING THERE? WELL, WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT GLENN GREENWALD AND EDWARD SNOWDEN, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PROVED WRONG. SO THEY'VE RELEASED AWHOLE SET OF DOCUMENTS, AND NOBODY HAS DISPROVEN WHAT THEY'RE DOING BECAUSE THEY'RE BASED ON THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS THAT CAME OUT OF THE NSA. SO, YOU KNOW, WE'LL SEE THE FULL REPORT IN A FEW DAYS, BUT EVEN WHAT WE KNOW ALREADY, I THINK THERE'S HEAPS OF EVIDENCE THAT JOHN KEY'S REASSURANCE THAT THERE'S NO MASS SURVEILLANCE JUST ISN'T TRUE, AND WE'LL SEE MORE EVIDENCE OF THAT IN A FEW DAYS, AND ONCE WE CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT, THEN WE CAN HAVE A FULL INQUIRY. SPEAKING OF CHANGING THE GOVERNMENT, I MEAN, IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT, WHAT WERE YOU UP TO THIS WEEK BY SAYING YOU WANTED TO WORK WITH JOHN KEY? WELL, WHAT WE'VE SAID SINCE 2008 ALL THE WAY THROUGH IS WE WANT TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE WE DON'T SUPPORT NATIONAL'S POLICIES. YOU REACHED OUT TO JOHN KEY THIS WEEK. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU THINK IT'S OVER, AND YOU HAD A CRACK WITH JOHN KEY, AND YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED? HE SLAPPED YOU DOWN, AND HE LAUGHED AT YOU, AND YOU GAVE HIM AN OPENING TO ATFACK THE LEFT. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? AND SO SINCE 2008, WE'VE HAD EXACTLY THE SAME POSITION, RIGHT? WHICH IS THAT WE WANNA CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT- I KNOW THAT. HANG ON. LET ME FINISH. I KNOW THAT. HANG ON. LET ME FINISH. YEAH, BUT WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? ALL THROUGH THAT PERIOD, RIGHT, WHAT WE'VE SAID IS THAT WE'LL WORK WHERE WE CAN FIND COMMON GROUND WITH NATIONAL. THE HOME-INSULATION SCHEME - IT'S HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HOUSES. WELL, NOD YOUR HEAD, BUT IT'S A BIG DEAL FOR PEOPLE, RIGHT? WE ACHIEVED THAT. YEAH, BUT NOTHING HAPPENED TILL THE LAST TERM. YOU REACHED OUT TO NATIONAL THIS WEEK, AND IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'VE GIVEN UP ON THE LEFT. AND SO WE ALSO SAID WE'D BE A STRONG OPPOSITION, AND OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, IN MY OPINION, LED THE OPPOSITION BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE, RIGHT? WHY ARE YOU EVEN THINKING ABOUT OPPOSITION? WHYARE YOU EVEN THINKING ABOUT OPPOSITION? THERE'S A WEEK TO GO. THERE'S A WEEK TO GO. THIS WEEK, WHAT WE DID WAS WE FLUSHED KEY OUT. SO KEY NOW, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE SAYING, 'OH, I'LL VOTE FOR JOHN KEY COS I THINK HE'LL BE REASONABLE ABOUT VARIOUS THINGS.' EVERYONE NOW KNOWS IF YOU VOTE FOR NATIONAL, IT MEANS HE'S GONNA ACCELERATE THE POLLUTION OF RIVERS. HE'S GONNAACCELERATE CLIMATE-CHANGE EMISSIONS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO WORK WITH ANYONE EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT JAMIE WHYTE. SO WE'LL GONNA HAVE A LOADED SHOTGUN BEHIND EVERY DAIRY IN THE COUNTRY. YOU DIDN'T FLUSH HIM OUT. EVERYBODY KNEW THEY DIDN'T WANT TO WORK WITH YOU, RUSSEL NORMAN. WELL, ACTUALLY, PADDY, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VOTING FOR NATIONAL WHO STILL HAVE SOME ILLUSIONS AS TO JOHN KEY BEING REASONABLE ON THE ENVIRONMENT OR OTHER POLICIES. THINK ABOUT CHILD POVERTY. CHILD POVERTY ACTION GROUP, THIS WEEK, SAID- WE'VE GOT TIME TO ASK YOU ONE LAST QUESTION. HANG ON. HANG ON. WE WANTA CROSS-PARTY ACCORD ON CHILD POVERTY IN NZ. THE GREEN PARTY'S UP FOR THAT. WE'VE RELEASED POLICY. JOHN KEY HAS JUST TURNED AROUND AND SAID, 'NO, I'M NOT GONNA BE PART OF A CROSS-PARTY ACCORD 'TO REDUCE CHILD POVERTY IN NZ.' AND PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT NATIONAL NEED TO KNOW THAT. JOHN KEY IS A PROBLEM FOR CHILD POVERTY IN TRYING TO REDUCE NUMBERS. HE'S A PROBLEM FOR CLIMATE CHANGE, CLEAN RIVERS, AND HE JUST REINFORCED IT THIS WEEK. JUST QUICKLY - CO-DEPUTY PRIME MINISTERSHIP. HAVE YOU TALKED TO LABOUR HOW THAT WOULD WORK? NOT IN ANY DETAIL. IT'S ON THE TABLE, POST-ELECTION. YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, IN POST-ELECTION NEGOTIATIONS. IS THAT SOMETHING YOU'D BE PREPARED TO TRADE OFF? BEING DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER IF IT MEANT GETTING WINSTON INTO THE HOUSE? INTO THE TENT? WELL, WHAT WE'VE SAID IS THAT WE WANT POLICY GAINS. YOU KNOW, TO GET CLEAN RIVERS- SO WOULD YOU BE HAPPY NOT TO BE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER IF THAT WAS THE PRICE OF GETTING WINSTON INTO A THREE-WAY COALITION AND GETTING A CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT? I'M REALLY FOCUSED ON POLICY CHANGE. SO THAT'S CLEAN RIVERS. GETTING KIDS OUT OF POVERTY. A CLEANER ECONOMY. SMART, GREEN INNOVATION. THAT'S THE TOP PRIORITY FOR THE GREENS. THAT'S WHY WE'RE IN POLITICS. RUSSEL NORMAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. WHY WE'RE IN POLITICS. RUSSEL NORMAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. A PLEASURE. THANKS, PADDY. COLIN CRAIG AND WINSTON PETERS COULD BE THE DECIDERS THIS ELECTION, AND THEY'RE NEXT. BUT LET'S NOT FORGET, AMONGST THE SCANDAL, PLENTY OF POLICY STILL GOT AN AIRING. WE'LL HELP 90,000 NZERS INTO THEIR FIRST HOME. A BILLION-DOLLAR PLAN TO REDUCE CHILD POVERTY. WE WILL RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE BY $2 AN HOUR TO $16.25 IN OUR FIRST YEAR OF GOVERNMENT. AND CONSERVATIVE PARTY LEADER COLIN CRAIG JOINS ME NOW. GOOD MORNING, MR CRAIG. JOHN KEY WAS ON THIS PROGRAMME THIS MORNING, AND HE HAD A CHANCE TO ENDORSE YOU WITH A WEEK TO GO. HE DIDN'T ENDORSE YOU. HE DOESN'T WANT YOU. HE DOESN'T THINK HE NEEDS YOU. WELL, LOOK, I MEAN, FRANKLY, I DON'T CARE WHETHER HE'S ENDORSING US OR NOT. WE'RE A POLITICAL PARTY THAT'S WINNING SUPPORT, AND WE DO THAT BY PEOPLE LOOKING AT US AND GOING, 'HEY, I SUPPORT THEIR POLICIES, AND I SUPPORT WHAT THEY STAND FOR.' THAT'S WHAT POLITICS IS ABOUT, IN MY VIEW. NOT GETTING SOME SORT OF ENDORSEMENT FROM ANOTHER POLITICAL PARTY. ULTIMATELY, IT'S A COMPETITION FOR VOTES. OK, WELL, YOUR BOTTOM LINE ISA CITIZENS-INITIATED REFERENDA. YOUR WEBSITE SAYS THAT YOU'LL NEED THE SUPPORT OF 5% OF REGISTERED VOTERS TO SPARK A REFERENDUM. ARE YOU DROPPING THAT FROM THE CURRENT 10% THAT WE NEED? YEAH, LOOK, 5% GETS YOU A POLITICAL PARTY INTO PARLIAMENT, AND WE THINK IT'S MORE THAN SUFFICIENT IN TERMS OF A THRESHOLD. UM, THATS OUR IDEAL. THAT'S WHERE WE'D LIKE TO END UP. AND THE REALITY- BUT IF YOU DO HAVE THAT AS A THRESHOLD, IF YOU DO HAVE 5%, YOU NEED ONLY TO GET 150,000 VOTERS TO SIGN UP. I MEAN, AND THEN WHAT DO WE EXPECT? ONE REFERENDUM A MONTH? YOU KNOW, AT $9 MILLION A POP? IS THATA GOOD USE OF MONEY? NO, HIGHLY UNLIKELY. WELL, OF COURSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE INUNDATED. I MEAN, THE COUNTRYAND THE WORLD THAT USES BINDING REFERENDA THE MOST IS SWITZERLAND, AND THEY DON'T HAVE ANYTHING LIKE ONE A MONTH. NOW, ON AVERAGE IN NEW ZEALAND, WE'VE HAD ONE EVERY FOUR YEARS. THERE HAVE BEEN TWO OR THREE THAT HAVE MISSED OUT THAT WOULD HAVE GOT THROUGH ON A 5% THRESHOLD. SO EVEN THAT'S ONLY ONE EVERY THREE YEARS - ABOUT THE FREQUENCY OF AN ELECTION. HARDLY SOMETHING TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT. OK. ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE VOTING IN THEM COMPULSORY? NO. I DON'T THINK COMPULSORY VOTING IN NEW ZEALAND IS SOMETHING THAT WE DO. NO, WE GIVE EVERYONE THE OPPORTUNITY. WE DON'T HAVE COMPULSORY VOTING IN OUR ELECTIONS, AND SO I DON'T THINK IT'S A SUDDEN CHANGE, AND WE'RE NOT SUGGESTING THAT SUDDENLY WE SHOULD MAKE VOTING IN THIS COUNTRY COMPULSORY. BUT THE DIFFICULTY WITH THAT IS THAT ONLY 45% OF VOTERS TURNED OUT FOR THE LAST ONE, WHICH WAS ON ASSET SALES. AND THEN YOU ONLY NEED 67% OF THOSE PEOPLE TO TICK FOR IT AND YOU PUSH IT THROUGH. IF YOU DO THE MATHS, THAT'S ONLY 30% SUPPORT FROM REGISTERED VOTERS. ARE YOU HAPPY TO CHANGE THE DIRECTION OF A COUNTRY BASED ON THE VIEWS OF A MINORITY? IT'S THE VIEWS OF ATWO-THIRDS MAJORITY OF THOSE WHO TURNED UP. LOOK, OUR LAST ELECTION, WE HAD- THAT'S A MINORITY OF REGISTERED VOTERS. THAT IS A MINORITY OF REGISTERED VOTERS. LAST ELECTION, WE HAD JUST OVER 70% OF VOTERS TURN OUT, BUT NOBODY LOOKS AT OUR GOVERNMENT AND SAYS, 'OH MY GOODNESS. THEY CLEARLY DON'T HAVE A MANDATE.' NO, IN FACT, THEY HAVE ABSOLUTE POWER, AND WE'RE SAYING WE SHOULD BRING SOME LIMITATION TO THAT POWER, AND THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY- BUT PEOPLE TURNING OUT TO VOTE IN A REFERENDUM IS MUCH LOWER THAN THE TURNOUT FOR A GENERAL ELECTION. ONLYAND OBVIOUSLY IF THE REFERENDUM IS NOT HELD AT ELECTION TIME. IF IT'S HELD AT ELECTION TIME, YOU GET THE SAME TURNOUT. AND MY PREFERENCE IS THAT THEY ARE, WHERE POSSIBLE, HELD AT ELECTION TIME. I THINK THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE. WELL, I WANT TO TURN NOW TO YOUR TAX POLICY. YOU WANT TO HAVE THE FIRST 20 GRAND FREE FOR EVERYBODY. AND THEN IDEALLYAFTER THAT, 25%. SO HOW MUCH IS THAT GOING TO COST AGAIN? WELL, LOOK, THE FIRST STEP- WE'VE GOT TWO FIRST STEPS. THE FIRST IS TO ALIGN THE TOP TAX RATE SO THAT THE COMPANY RATE, THE PERSONAL RATE, THE TRUST RATE- I WANT THE BILL, MR CRAIG. HOW MUCH IS IT GOING TO COST? IN TERMS OF THE $20,000 TAX-FREE THRESHOLD, ULTIMATELY THAT IS COSTED AT A BIT OVER $4 BILLION. $4.2 BILLION. WE ARE NOT SAYING- THRESHOLD, ULTIMATELY THAT IS COSTED ATA BIT OVER $4 BILLION. $4.2 BILLION. WE ARE NOT SAYING- THRESHOLD, ULTIMATELY THAT IS COSTED THAT'S THE TOTAL FOR THAT. FOR YOUR ENTIRE-? NO, I WANTATOTAL FOR YOUR ENTIRE TAX POLICY. WHAT IS IT? NO, WE HAVEN'T COSTED THE REST OF THE TAX POLICY, AND I EXPECT TO- WE HAVE. SO LET ME TALK YOU THROUGH IT. WE'VE DONE IT. WE'VE GOT TWO INDEPENDENT COSTINGS. ONE FROM ATOP ECONOMIST AND ONE FROM A TOP TAX EXPERT. BOTH COME OUT AT APPROXIMATELY $7 BILLION. ONE FROM ATOP ECONOMISTAND ONE AND THAT WOULD PROBABLY- OUT AT APPROXIMATELY $7 BILLION. ONE FROM ATOP ECONOMIST AND ONE AND THAT VVOULD PROBABLY- HOVV ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR THAT'? LOOK, THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE RIGHT IF YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE PACKAGE AND WHERE WE WOULD WANT TO END UP. HOWARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT? IF YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE PACKAGE AND WHERE WE WOULD WANT TO END UP. HOWARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT? WHERE WE START IS WE START WITH A TAX-FREE THRESHOLD. THAT MEANS THAT PEOPLE CAN EARN MONEY AND TAKE IT HOME WITHOUT PAYING TAX- THAT'S NOTAN EXPLANATION OF HOW YOU'RE GOING TO PAY FOR IT. COULD YOU GIVE ME AN ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION? THIS IS ABOUT A SMALLER, MORE EFFICIENT GOVERNMENT. SO THE SORTS OF THINGS THAT SAVE US MONEY. NUMBER ONE OVERWHELMINGLY, THE VOTERS IN THIS COUNTRY WANTED TO REDUCE THE SIZE OF OUR GOVERNMENT. THEY WANTED LESS MPS. THAT WOULD BE LESS STAFF. THAT'S LESS OF A BUREAUCRACY. THAT'S A SAVING. THEY WANTED LESS MPS. THAT WOULD BE I'VE TALKED ABOUT THE MINISTRY- BUREAUCRACY. THAT'S A SAVING. THEY WANTED LESS MPS. THAT WOULD BE I'VE TALKED ABOUT THE MINISTRY- $7 BILLION YOU'VE GOT TO PAY FOR. REMEMBER, THE FIRST STEP FOR US IS TO BRING IN THAT TAX-FREE THRESHOLD. THE BILL OF THE TAX-FREE THRESHOLD IS NOT $7 BILLION. AND THIS IS ABOUT STARTING THE PROGRESS TOWARDS WHERE PEOPLE CAN TAKE HOME $20,000 WITHOUT PAYING TAX. OF COURSE THAT'S GOING TO COST MONEY. BUT THIS IS ABOUTA SMALLER, MORE EFFICIENT GOVERNMENT. THE SECOND EXAMPLE THAT I WILL GIVE YOU IS THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION. THAT DOESN'T TEACH ANYBODY, BUT IT GETS WELL OVER $800 MILLION IN A YEAR. SO NOWHERE NEAR $7 BILLION. YOU CAN'T GIVE ME A STRAIGHT ANSWER. WE'VE GOTA LITTLE BIT OF TIME. LOOK, WE ARE NOT GOING TO FUND $7 BILLION STRAIGHT AWAY. LET ME MAKE THAT VERY, VERY CLEAR. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE- BILLION STRAIGHT AWAY. LET ME MAKE THAT VERY, VERY CLEAR. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE- BUT WE'RE GOING TO START WITH THE TAX-FREE THRESHOLD. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING, MR CRAIG. UM, WELL, IT SOUNDS LIKE A MOVIE TITLE - THE COMEBACK KID, PART II. BUT COULD WINSTON PETERS AGAIN HOLD THE BALANCE OF POWER? HE JOINS PADDY LIVE FROM THE WAR MEMORIAL HALL IN LEVIN, WHERE HE'S ABOUT TO DELIVER A SPEECH. HE JOINS PADDY LIVE FROM THE WAR GOOD MORNING, WINSTON PETERS. ABOUT TO DELIVER A SPEECH. HE JOINS PADDY LIVE FROM THE WAR GOOD MORNING, WINSTON PETERS. GOOD MORNING, PADDY. HOWARE YOU? GOOD. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'VE GOTA GOOD CROWD THERE. IF WE COULD START, MR PETERS, WITH KIM DOTCOM AND MONDAY NIGHT - THE BIG REVEAL. A PERSONAL VIEW FROM YOU. DO YOU THINK THAT JOHN KEY KNEWABOUT KIM DOTCOM IN ADVANCE OF THAT RAID? WELL, YES, AS A FORMER ACTING PRIME MINISTER, I KNEW FULL WELL BACK THEN THAT THESE DETAILS WITH RESPECT TO THE SIS AND THE GCSB, AND EVERY PRIME MINISTER IN THE WESTERN WORLD IN SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD HAVE TO BE TOLD. OTHERWISE SERIOUS NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WOULD BE SACKED FROM HIS DEPARTMENT. SO I'VE NEVER BELIEVED MR KEY'S DENIALS, UNFORTUNATELY, BECAUSE MY EXPERIENCE TOLD ME, AND THE EXPERIENCE OF EVERY OTHER DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ACTING AS A PRIME MINISTER WOULD KNOW THAT. AND DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER INDICATION OF WHAT THIS BIG REVEAL MIGHT BE ON MONDAY NIGHT? DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER EVIDENCE YOURSELF? WELL, NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT I'M PREPARED TO GO PUBLIC. IN FACT, WE'VE PUTA LOT OF WORK INTO TRYING TO GET AT THE TRUTH, BUT WE NEVER GOT 99.9% THERE WITHOUT GETTING OVER THE TOP OF THE INFORMATION, SO I'VE KEPT QUIET. BUT, BASICALLY, YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT KIM DOTCOM HAS HAD THAT WILL PROVE THE PRIME MINISTER AS A LIAR, YET STILL YOU ARE PREPARED TO GO INTO GOVERNMENT WITH A MAN THAT YOU CLEARLY THINK IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. INTO GOVERNMENT WITH A MAN THAT YOU CLEARLY THINK IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. NO, I NEVER SAID THE PRIME MINISTER WAS A LIAR. I SAID ONE OR TWO THINGS IS THE ONLY CONCLUSION YOU COULD ARRIVE AT - EITHER HE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH OR HIS MANAGEMENT OF HIS DEPARTMENT WAS SO LAXAND SO LOOSE THAT HIS CLAIM TO BE A GOOD MANAGER COULD NOT BE TRUE. ONE OF THOSE STATEMENTS HAS TO BE THE RESULT. I'M NOT MAKING ALLEGATIONS; I'M JUST COMING TO CONCLUSIONS THAT ARE UNAVOIDABLE. YES. NOW, ONE THING I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IS THE CROSS-BENCHES. YOU TALK OFTEN OF BEING ON THE CROSS-BENCHES POST THE ELECTION. WHAT DOES THE CROSS-BENCHES ACTUALLY MEAN? CAN YOU PLEASE DEFINE IT FOR ME? WELL, IT MEANS YOU'RE NOT IN GOVERNMENT. IT MEANS THAT YOU ARE THERE TO KEEP THE SYSTEM HONEST, THAT YOU USE ALL YOUR RESEARCH AND ALL YOUR RESOURCES TO ENSURE THAT THE PUBLIC GET TRANSPARENCY. THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS. SO DO YOU ABSTAIN ON CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY? NO, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT. IT MEANS THAT YOU'RE ON THE CROSS-BENCHES, NOT ALIGNED TO THE LEFT OR NOT ALIGNED TO THE RIGHT, BUT DOING YOUR JOB FOR THE- SO HOW DO YOU VOTE ON CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY? I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING. NO, NO, NO. IF YOU COME ALONG WITH A BUDGET THAT FURTHER SENDS THIS COUNTRY INTO A TAILSPIN - WHICH WE'RE CURRENTLY IN, AND EVERY ECONOMIST WILL TELL YOU THAT NOW - THEN OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T VOTE FOR IT. I MEAN, YOU'D HAVE TO LOOK AT THE MERIT OF THE PROPOSAL AND EVERY PROPOSAL ON THAT BASIS. SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CROSS-BENCHES MEANING VOTING FOR SUPPLY AS THE BUDGET COMES ALONG. SO SAY, FOR INSTANCE, JOHN KEY AND BILL ENGLISH BRINGING THE BUDGET TO YOU TO VOTE FOR IT? IS THAT WHAT THE CROSS-BENCHES MEANS TO YOU? NO, IT MEANS THAT YOU ARE THERE ON THE CROSS-BENCHES BECAUSE THAT'S YOUR DECISION. AND YOU WOULD ASSUME THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS THE NUMBERS TO DO WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING. NOW, I DON'T WANT TO GIVE, AT THIS LATE STAGE, A CONSTITUTIONAL LESSON, BUT THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS. WELL, IT'S HARD TO FOLLOW, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT SAYING WHAT YOU'D DO WITH CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY. YOU CAN'T GO OUT TO VOTERS AND SAY 'CROSS-BENCHES' AND THEN SAY, WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT MEANS CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY OR NOT.' THERE'S A WEEK TO Go; VOTERS NEED TO KNOW, MR PETERS. WELL, LEAVE IT TO ME TO TELL THE GOOD PEOPLE OF LEVIN TODAY WHAT I MEAN AND WHAT I'VE TRIED TO GET THROUGH YOUR HEADS OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS AND, IN FACT, 21 YEARS OF LEADING NEW ZEALAND FIRST. WE'RE INTO A DEMOCRATIC DECISION IN A WEEK'S TIME. THE POWER LIES WITH THESE PEOPLE BEHIND ME, NOT YOU GUYS. AND THE TRUTH IS THEY WANT TO SEE AN HONEST, TRANSPARENT GOVERNMENT. THEY DON'T LIKE THE FILTH AND UGLINESS OF CHARACTER ASSASSINATION IN POLITICS. THEY WANT THE SYSTEM CLEANED UP. AND THEY WANT, ABOVE ALL, THEIR COUNTRY TO REGAIN ITS FORMER ECONOMIC GREATNESS. AND ON THAT, I MEAN, YOU CALLED FOR A ROYAL COMMISSION INTO DIRTY POLITICS, THEN YOU DID A U-TURN AND SAID THE CURRENT ENQUIRY'S OK. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR-? NO. NO, NO, NO, SORRY, PADDY. AGAIN, WE CAN'T LET YOU BE THAT LOOSE WITH THE FACTS. WELL, I'M GMNG YOU THE FACTS. WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR YOUR OTHER BOTTOM LINES? IS BLOCKING LOCHINVER-? PADDY, YOU MADE A STATEMENT. PADDY, YOU MADE A STATEMENT. LET ME ANSWER YOU. I MEAN, I'M SURE IT'LL HELP YOU TOO. THE REALITY IS I CALLED FOR A ROYAL COMMISSION FIRST BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE. THAT IS STILL OUR POSITION, BUT THERE IS A SECOND TYPE OF COMMISSION FAR MORE ENCOMPASSING THAN THE ONE MR KEY HAS NOW GOT, THAT MANY CONSTITUTIONAL AND LEGAL EXPERTS SAY WOULD BE ABLE TO DO THE JOB AS WELL. I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU. ONE LAST QUESTION, MR PETERS. PADDY, STOP RIGHT NOW. I DID NOT GO BACK ON MY WORD, AND I WON'T HAVE YOU GUYS OPENING YOUR MOUTH AND LET THE WIND BLOW YOUR TONGUE AROUND. THIS IS VERY CRITICAL AT THIS POINT IN TIME THAT THE PUBLIC GET THE TRUTH . YEAH, SURE. AND ON THAT, WE HEARD THE PRIME MINISTER SAY THIS MORNING THAT HE IS PREPARED, IF YOU MUCK HIM AROUND, ESSENTIALLY- HE EFFECTIVELY SAID IF YOU MUCK HIM AROUND, HE'S PREPARED TO GO UP TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL, CALL THE PARLIAMENT TOGETHER AND SEE WHO YOU WOULD VOTE FOR. ESSENTIALLY, CALL YOUR BLUFF. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, THE PRIME MINSTER WILLING TO GO UP TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL AND CALL YOUR BLUFF IN THE PARLIAMENT? LOOK, MR KEY HAS A NUMBER OF SKILLS. BEING A CONSTITUTIONAL EXPERT AND KEEPING HIS NERVE DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE ONE OF THEM. THERE WILL BE NO INSTABILITY IN THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY. THERE HASN'T BEEN UNDER MMP SINCE 1996. SO WHY ARE WE HAVING PEOPLE PANICKING AND TRYING TO SCARE THE PUBLIC? LOOK, I TRUST NEW ZEALANDERS, AND I BELIEVE ENOUGH TRUST ME. ALL RIGHT, MR PETERS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THAT'S A GOOD PLACE TO LEAVE IT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. ALL RIGHT, MR PETERS, THANK YOU VERY IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE. THANK YOU. IT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. ALL RIGHT, MR PETERS, THANK YOU VERY IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE. THANK YOU. IT HAS BEEN. IT CERTAINLY HAS. AFTER THE BREAK - MIKE WILLIAMS, MATTHEW HOOTON AND OUR SATIRE BOYS. BUT IF YOU WERE LOOKING FOR GAFFES AND OUTBURSTS, THIS CAMPAIGN OFFERED RICH PICKINGS. TWO WONGS DON'T MAKE A WHITE. BUT IF YOU WERE LOOKING FOR GAFFES AND OUTBURSTS, THIS CAMPAIGN OFFERED RICH PICKINGS. THE FRUIT BASKETS ON TOP OF MY HEAD. AND YOU HAVE ALL FIGURED BY NOW THERE'S ANOTHER PRIME MINISTER I DON'T LIKE. 83111339111' YOU WORK IN NEWS. YOU PUFFED-UP Ll'l'I'LE SHIT. UM, WE HEARD FROM GLENN GREENWALD THERE AND OF COURSE PADDY UM, AND HE'S SAYING THAT THERE'S MASS SURVEILLANCE OF NEW ZEALANDERS AND OUR FRIENDS AND OUR ENEMIES. UM, AND HE'S SAYING THAT THERE'S HE'S CALLING THE PRIME MINISTER OUT. AND OUR FRIENDS AND OUR ENEMIES. UM, AND HE'S SAYING THAT THERE'S HE'S CALLING THE PRIME MINISTER OUT. YEAH, BASICALLY FASCINATING STUFF. HE SAID HE'D BEEN WORKING FOR MONTHS ON THE NEW ZEALAND END OF THE SNOWDEN DOCUMENTS, AND ESSENTIALLY SAYING THAT THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE GCSB'S DECLARATION THAT THERE'S NO MASS SURVEILLANCE ON NEW ZEALANDERS, THAT HE CAN CONTRADICT THAT. HE SAID THAT THERE MIGHT NOT BE MASS SURVEILLANCE, BUT IN TERMS OF METADATA, WHAT WE'VE GOT ON OUR COMPUTERS, THERE IS SPYING, AND I QUOTE GLENN GREENWALD HERE, ON A MASSIVE, INDISCRIMINATE SCALE IN NEW ZEALAND, AND HE'S OBVIOUSLY GOT THOSE DOCUMENTS THAT HE SAYS IS GONNA BACK IT UP. HE ALSO SAID THAT THE NEW ZEALAND SPY AGENCIES ARE USING THE PROGRAM XKEYSCORE. WHICH JOHN KEY WOULD NEVER CONFIRM OR DENY. THAT'S RIGHT. SO HE'S ALSO GOT THAT THERE. SO HE'S ABLE, BY THE SOUNDS OF THINGS, WHAT HE'S LOOKING AT DOING ON MONDAY NIGHT OR IN THE COMING DAYS IS DIRECTLY CONTRADICTING THE PRIME MINISTER'S ASSURANCES. MIKE, IS THAT GONNA MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF THAT'S WHAT HE LAYS OUT ON MONDAY? IS THERE GONNA MAKE A DIFFERENCE? I THINK IT DOES MAKE A SLIGHT DIFFERENCE. IT GOES TO THE CREDIBILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT. WE'VE HAD ASSURANCES FROM BOTH THE GCSB AND JOHN KEY THAT OUR SPY AGENCIES ARE NOT COLLECTING WHAT IS CALLED METADATA, WHICH IS WHO YOU TALK TO, WHERE YOU ARE, WHEN YOU DO IT AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF. GLENN GREENWALD SPECIFICALLY CONTRADICTED THAT. NO, HE WAS CLEAR. WHAT HE SAID WAS THAT HE FELT THE PRIME MINISTER HAD USED VERY PRECISE WORDS. THE PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID THAT THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES HAVEN'T DONE WHOLESALE' COLLECTION OF METADATA. SO THE PRIME MINISTER'S BEEN VERY CAREFUL IN HIS WORDS, AND QUITE FRANKLY, WHAT GLENN REPRESENTS AND SOME OF THOSE WHO ARE SUPPORTING HIM IS A VERY LEFT-WING VIEW OF THE WORLD, WHERE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN THE ROLE OF SPY AGENCIES IN OUR SOCIETY. AND THEY THINK THAT THE SPY AGENCIES SHOULD ONLY BE SPYING ON TERRORIST GROUPS. WELL, FOR GOODNESS SAKE, UNLESS YOU COLLECT METADATA-AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, SOME OF IT - HOW COULD YOU EVER FIND OUT IF THEY WERE ANY TERRORIST GROUPS TO SPY ON IN MORE DETAIL? INDISCRIMINATE IS THE KEY WORD, ISN'T IT, GENTLEMEN? WE'RE GONNA END UP HAVING THE DEBATE HERE ABOUT WHETHER WHEN THE PRIME MINISTER SAID THERE WAS NO WHOLESALE SPYING, WAS HE BEING A BIT TRICKY WHEN THERE WAS SPYING ON A MASSIVE, INDISCRIMINATE SCALE. I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHOLESALE AND MASSIVE, INDISCRIMINATE. GLENN GREENWALD USED THE WORD 'UNTRUTHFUL' WHEN HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE GCSB. NOW THAT IS GOING TO GO TO THE HEART OF PEOPLE WHO TRUST THE GOVERNMENT. KIM DOTCOM, IRONICALLY, SAYS ALL THIS STUFF ON MONDAY IS ABOUT HOLLYWOOD. SO I'M FINDING IT DIFFICULT TO SEE THAT THE LINKS BETWEEN WHAT WE'VE HAD CLAIMED ABOUT THE SPYAGENCIES, WHAT THE PRIME MINISTER'S BEEN SAYING, AND KIM DOTCOM'S COMMENTS THAT IT'S GONNA BE SOMETHING TO DO WITH HOLLYWOOD. THERE'S GOT TO BE A TWO-TIERED ANNOUNCEMENT, ISN'T THERE? THERE'S GONNA BE WHAT GLENN GREENWALD'S GOT ON THE NSA- DO YOU THINK IT'S GONNA HAVE ANY IMPACT? THE INFORMATION THAT GLENN GREENWALD APPEARS TO BE ABOUT TO LAY ON THE TABLE? I DON'T THINK THAT MATTERS RELATING TO THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES ARE GONNA CHANGE PEOPLE'S VOTES. I THINK THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THAT THE SIS... SORRY, THE GCSB DOES LOOK THROUGH WHO'S TALKING TO WHO. WELL, THEIR COMPUTERS DO, AND AS LONG AS THATS KEPT SECURE- I MEAN THE PERSON WHOSE PRIVACY IN THIS COUNTRY WHO'S BEEN VIOLATED MOST OF ALL IS ACTUALLY CAMERON SLATER, WHO'S BEEN IN THE COURTS, AND THE IRONY OF ALL THESE PEOPLE. THAT IS A WHOLE OTHER STORY. BEEN IN THE COURTS, AND THE IRONY OF ALL THESE PEOPLE. THAT IS A WHOLE OTHER STORY. JUST BECAUSE HE'S UNPOPULAR. JUST BECAUSE HE'S... CAMERON SLATER IS EXTREMELY UNPOPULAR AT THE MOMENT. HE IS THE PERSON WHOSE PRIVACY HAS BEEN VIOLATED, AND I'M MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE WITH INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE PRIME MINISTER LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S METADATA THAN PRIVATE INDMDUALS WITH EXTREME LEFT-WING AGENDAS READING THOUSANDS OF OTHER PEOPLE'S EMAILS. SO IF WE ARE, AS THE SUGGESTION SEEMS TO BE, SPYING ON OUR MATES AND ON UN REPRESENTATIVES, IS THAT WHERE WE WANNA BE? SEEMS TO BE, SPYING ON OUR MATES AND ON UN REPRESENTATIVES, IS THAT WHERE WE WANNA BE? WELL, THAT WAS ANOTHER INTERESTING POINT. THAT GLENN GREENWALD SAID THAT THE US CAN'T SPY ON HOSTILE COUNTRIES, AND HE DIDN'T EXCLUDE CHINA FROM THAT, BUT NZ CAN. SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE SORT OF DOING THE DIRTY WORK FOR SOMETHING ELSE. I MEAN, MATTS DEFENCE OF THE PRIME MINISTER IS REALLY UNCONVINCING AND SEMANTIC. I MEAN, EITHER HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH OR HE'S NOT TELLING THE TRUTH, AND THAT GOES FOR THE CREDIBILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT. ALL RIGHT, I WANT TO QUICKLY MOVE ON TO WINSTON PETERS THERE, WHO SEEMED TO BE SITTING ON THE FENCE A LI'I'I'LE BIT OVER SUPPLY AND CONFIDENCE. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT, PADDY? FENCE A LI'I'I'LE BIT OVER SUPPLY AND CONFIDENCE. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT, PADDY? WELL, I MEAN, WE ASKED HIM TO EXPLAIN WHAT THE CROSS-BENCHES ARE. HE KEEPS TALKING EVERY WEEK ABOUT GOING ON TO THE CROSS-BENCHES, AND HE WOULDN'T ACTUALLY SAY WHAT THE CROSS-BENCHES ARE. HE DID AT ONE POINT SAY THAT HE WOULD- DIDN'T MEAN ABSTAINING ON VOTING FOR THE BUDGET. HE MIGHT VOTE FOR THE BUDGET, ISSUE BY ISSUE. BUT, I MEAN, IF WINSTON PETERS IS GONNA GO AROUND THE COUNTRY AND SAY HE'S GONNA SIT ON THE CROSS-BENCHES, HE NEEDS TO TELL NEW ZEALANDERS WHAT THE CROSS-BENCHES REALLY ARE. WELL, THEY ARE A PHYSICAL REALITY. THEY ARE THE BENCHES BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THE OPPOSITION. WHAT HE MEANS BY THAT IS A CASE-BY-CASE DECISION ON VARIOUS ISSUES. BUT THERE WAS A POINT MADE BY JOHN KEY, WHICH IS NOT ACTUALLY TRUE. HE SAID THATA SMALL PARTY THAT CAUSES AN ELECTION, HISTORICALLY SPEAKING, WILL GET DECIMATED. I CANNOT THINK OF A HISTORICAL INSTANCE OF THAT HAPPENING. I THINK KEY IS JUST WRONG. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE. THANKS TO YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US. AND TAKING US TO THE BREAK IS THE FABULOUS JEREMY CORBETTAND PAUL EGO. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK: IF NEW ZEALAND FIRST DOES GAIN 10% OF THE VOTE, WILL WINSTON PETERS USE UP NEW ZEALAND'S ENTIRE SUPPLY OF SMUG? PROBABLY. LET'S JUST HOPE ALL THE OLD PEOPLE DOA HIP BEFORE NEXT SATURDAY, EH? LABOUR BEING BOLD THIS WEEK - DAVID CUNLIFFE SAYING THEY WON'T GOVERN WITH JUST ANYONE. WELL, I THINK WE'VE ALL PRETTY MUCH DECIDED THEY'RE NOT GONNA GOVERN WITH ANYONE. AND THEIR CAPITAL GAINS GAMBIT DIDN'T REALLY PAY OFF, PAUL? WELL, IT'S PAID OFF FOR SOME. LOOK AT GERRY BROWNLEE. HE'S GAINED HEAPS SINCE HE'S BEEN IN THE CAPITAL. WAS JOHN KEY RIGHT? IF IT WALKS LIKE A DOG AND IT BARKS LIKE A DOG, IT IS A DOG? LOOK, I'M NO DOCTOR, BUT YEAH, THAT'S A DOG, DEFINITELY. AND IF IT WALKS LIKE A DUCK THAT'S BEEN BITTEN BYA DOG, THEN IT'S COLIN CRAIG. AND IF IT WALKS LIKE A DUCK THAT'S HE DOES HAVE A FUNNY WALK. COLIN CRAIG. AND IF IT WALKS LIKE A DUCK THAT'S HE DOES HAVE A FUNNY WALK. HE'S GOT A GREAT WALK. AND IF IT'S A DOG THAT QUACKS LIKE A DUCK, THEN IT'S PROBABLY GENETIC MODIFICATION, WHICH WAS REALLYAN ISSUE FOUR ELECTIONS AGO, SO NO LONGER RELEVANT. SORRY FOR BRINGING IT UP. YOUR TAKE, PAUL, ON THE RUMOURS OF A RIFT IN THE INTERNET-MAMA PARTY? WELL, WORD ON THE STREET IS THAT MANA DO WANT TO LEAVE, BUT THEY JUST CAN'T SEEM TO BREAK THEMSELVES FREE OF DOTCOM'S GRAVITATIONAL PULL, YOU KNOW? SORT OF SUCKS THEM BACK IN AGAIN. THE VAGARIES OF MMP, THE POLLS - WHO KNOWS WHAT REVELATIONS STILL TO COME. ONE WEEK OUT FROM ELECTION 14, IT'S TOO CLOSE TO CALL. JUST SO I'M CLEAR, THOUGH, JEREMY - AFTER NEXT SATURDAY, WE DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THIS ANY MORE, DO WE? OH GOD. I HOPE NOT. LETS LOOK BACK, I THINK, AT SOME OF THE MOMENTS DURING THE CAMPAIGN. THE BEST STRATEGY OR BEST CAMPAIGN MOMENT, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WAS? MATTHEW? THE BEST CAMPAIGN MOMENT? I'LL TELL YOU THE WORST. THE BEST CAMPAIGN MOMENT? YOU'RE JUMPING AHEAD, BUT OK. THE BEST CAMPAIGN MOMENT? YOU'RE JUMPING AHEAD, BUT OK. THE WORST GOES BACK TWO YEARS, WHICH WAS WHEN THE LABOUR PARTY DECIDED TO CHANGE ITS RULES FOR ELECTING ITS LEADER. AND LABOUR WAS GOING UP IN THE POLLS. IT WAS HEADING TOWARDS 35%, WITH THE GREENS HEADING TOWARDS 15%. IT WAS LOOKING LIKE IT WAS GOING TO BE ALMOST CERTAINLY A LABOUR-GREEN GOVERNMENT, AND THEN THEY CHANGED THOSE RULES. THEY PUT DAVID CUNLIFFE, AND SINCE HE'S BEEN LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY, THEY'VE LOST 1O POINTS IN THE POLLS, AND THAT HAS MADE THIS TOO CLOSE TO CALL. OK. SO DITCHING THE OTHER DAVID WAS THEIR WORST MOMENT IN THE CAMPAIGN? ALL RIGHT, MIKE? WELL, I'M FOCUSING ON THE CAMPAIGN. I THINK THE WORST STRATEGY IS CLEARLY THE STRATEGY OF JOHN KEY'S OFFICE TO ENGAGE WITH CAMERON SLATER. THE LID HAS BEEN BLOWN OFF THAT. WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IS A RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACY, AND IT HASN'T DONE NATIONAL ANY GOOD. I THINK IT'S REDUCED JOHN KEY'S AUTHORITY, AND I THINK QUITE A FEW DECENT TORIES WILLACTUALLY STAY HOME BECAUSE OF THAT. YEAH, I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I THINK THAT THE INITIAL HANDLING OF DIRTY POLITICS BY THE NATIONAL PARTY BY JOHN KEY, IN PARTICULAR, WERE SOME OF THE WORST STRATEGY. I THINK THE ACTUAL BEST STRATEGY MOMENT, THOUGH, ALSO CAME OUT OF THAT WHEN THEY FINALLY DID SOMETHING AND GOT RID OF JUDITH COLLINS. THAT WAS A REAL SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN NATIONAL'S CAMPAIGN. AS SOON AS SHE WAS GONE, THE HEAT WAS GOING OUT OF THINGS, BUT DEFINITELY ONE OF THE AFTERMATHS, OR ONE OF THE AFTER-EFFECTS, OF DIRTY POLITICS WILL BE THAT JOHN KEY REALLY HAS LOST SOME OF HIS SHEEN UH, THROUGH IT, AND IT'S LED TO THE RISE OF THE CONSERVATIVES AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST. ARGUABLY, THE GETTING RID OF JUDITH COLLINS AS A MINISTER COULD HAVE BEEN A BESTAND WORST MOMENT. YOU SAY IT WAS ATURN FOR THEM BUT COULD HAVE BEEN THE WORST IN STRATEGY NOT GETTING RID OF HER SOONER. COULD HAVE BEEN THE WORST IN STRATEGY NOT GETTING RID OF HER SOONER. WELL, I THINK SHE'S BEEN THE WORST PERFORMER OF THE CAMPAIGN. SHE WAS AN ABSOLUTE LIABILITY. JUDITH COLLINS IS ON MY LIST OF THE WORST PERFORMER AS WELL. SO I THINK WE CAN AGREE ON THAT? I'D AGREE WITH THAT. WORST PERFORMER AS WELL. SO I THINK WE CAN AGREE ON THAT? I'D AGREE WITH THAT. THE AYES HAVE IT. JUDITH COLLINS IN THE WORST. NOW, CAN I JUST SAYA BEST STRATEGY, WHICH HAS PROBABLY GONE UNDER THE RADAR, IS THE LABOUR PARTY'S ON THE GROUND STRATEGY, WHICH PEOPLE HAVEN'T NOTICED VERY MUCH. BUT I LIVE IN THE ELECTORATE OF TE ATATU, WHICH THE NATIONAL PARTY REGARDS AS MARGINAL. I HAVE SEEN NO ACTMTY FROM THE NATIONAL PARTY WHATSOEVER. I'VE HAD FOUR THINGS IN MY LETFERBOX FROM LABOUR, ONE FROM GREENS, TWO FROM CONSERVATIVES. NOTHING FROM NATIONAL. SO ITHINK THAT ON THE GROUND STRATEGY FROM LABOUR MIGHT JUST GIVE THEM THE 1% OR 2% TO GET OVER THE TOP. AND IF YOU WANTA BEST STRATEGY FROM NATIONAL, I THINK IT WAS AT THE TIME OF AROUND THE BUDGET, WHEN THEY JUST TRUMPED LABOUR ON CHILD POVERTY. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, FREE DOCTOR'S VISITS FOR PEOPLE UP TO 13. ITHINK IT SHOULD BE HIGHER. MORE PAID PARENTAL LEAVE THAT EVEN LAILA HARRE PROMOTED WHEN SHE WAS A MINISTER. GETTING INTO LABOUR'S GROUND HAS BEEN A REAL THEME, AND I'LL TELL YOU A COUPLE OF BEST PERFORMERS THAT I REALLY WANT TO PICK UP WITH. THIS GUY, COLIN CRAIG, AND WINSTON PETERS. WINSTON PETERS WON'T LIKE ME SAYING THIS, BUT I GIVE A DRAW TO COLIN CRAIG AND WINSTON PETERS FOR BEST PERFORMER, AND WINSTON IS LOOKING FORA SUCCESSOR. MAYBE HE NEEDS TO THINK OUTSIDE THE SQUARE. MAYBE IT'S COLIN CRAIG. A MERGER OF THE TWO OF THEM -A 15% PLUS NEW ZEALAND FIRST-CONSERVATIVE PARTY - WHY NOT? THE TWO OF THEM -A 15% PLUS NEW ZEALAND FIRST-CONSERVATIVE PARTY - WHY NOT? THEY ARE COMPETING FOR THE SAME VOTE. I REALLY THINK THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, THOUGH. NEW ZEALAND FIRST POLLING DEMONSTRATES THAT IF YOU VOTE FOR NEW ZEALAND FIRST, IT WILL NOT BE AWASTED VOTE. NOW, THE CONSERVATIVES ARE AVERAGING AROUND 3%, 3.5%. IN THE LAST WEEK, PEOPLE LOOK AT THATAND THINK, 'IF I VOTE CONSERVATIVE, 'ITS ACTUALLY MOST LIKELY TO BE A WASTED VOTE.' WELL, THE PRIME MINISTER FAILED TO GIVE HIM ANY FURTHER ENDORSEMENT. EXACTLY. NOW THE PRIME MINISTER BROUGHT UP THE IDEA OF A WASTED VOTE AS WELL. WELL, IT'S KEY HERE. JOHN KEY IS NOT GOING TO TALK UP COLIN CRAIG IN THE LAST WEEK LIKE MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THINKING HE HAS, AND IT'S BECAUSE JOHN KEY KNOWS THE MATH. THE WASTED VOTE OF THE CONSERVATIVES MISSING OUT DOES NOT DISAPPEAR. NATIONAL GETS A HUGE PROPORTION OF THAT. JOHN KEY UNDERSTANDS HOW A WASTED VOTE WORKS. HE WILL NOT TALK UP COLIN CRAIG, AND IT MIGHT JUST BE THAT. THAT MEANS COLIN CRAIG DOESN'T MAKE IT, BECAUSE WITHOUTA HAND FROM JOHN KEY, GETTING OVER THAT 5% THRESHOLD MIGHT BE TOO HARD. WE MIGHT HAVE SEEN TODAY WITH JOHN KEY SAYING TO YOU. WE MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN COLIN CRAIG NOT MAKE IT BACK. OK, GENTLEMEN, SO HOW DOES IT END, THEN? DOES COLIN CRAIG GET OVER 5%? AND WHAT DOES WINSTON TAKE HOME? OK, I DON'T THINK COLIN CRAIG WILL GET OVER 5%. I THINK HE WOULD BE OVER THAT BY NOW, IF HE WAS GOING TO. I THINK HE WILL ACTUALLY GO BACKWARDS IN THE LAST WEEK. WINSTON, I THINK, COULD WELL END UP THE KINGMAKER MAKER. AND, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I WOULDN'T BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THAT. I THINK lT'LL TAKE THE SHARP EDGES OFF WHATEVER GOVERNMENT HE ENDORSES. MATTHEW, GIVE US YOUR QUICK NUMBERS. I THINK lT'LL TAKE THE SHARP EDGES OFF WHATEVER GOVERNMENT HE ENDORSES. MATTHEW, GIVE US YOUR QUICK NUMBERS. ALAS, IAGREE WITH THAT. THE CONSERVATIVES WILL JUST MISS OUT, AND I THINK WINSTON PETERS WILL GET THERE, AND WINSTON PETERS WILL HAVE THE BALANCE OF POWER. BUT WHAT'S BEEN FASCINATING ON THIS PROGRAMME TODAY IS THIS NEW STRATEGY OF THE PRIME MINISTER TO POTENTIALLY CALL WINSTON PETERS' BLUFF, AND I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT PLAY OUT, I THINK. I'D LOVE IT. I'D LOVE TO SEE IT AS WELL. I'LL BE AT THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S HOUSE TO WATCH THAT. THAT'S A GOOD NOTE TO LEAVE IT ON. SO WHAT WILL BE MAKING HEADLINES BEFORE THE ELECTION? MAORI TV HAS ITS TAI TOKERAU POLL RESULTS TOMORROW. WILL IT BE HONE OR CALVIN? KIM DOTCOM HAS HIS MOMENT OF TRUTH TOMORROW AS WELL. AND, AS WE'VE LEARNED, LABOUR IS PROMISING SOMETHING ON NEW ZEALAND OWNERSHIP. WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT ANNOUNCEMENT AS WELL. AND, OF COURSE, NEXT SATURDAY IS E-DAY. AND HERE ON TV3, JOHN CAMPBELL AND DUNCAN GARNER HOST OUR ELECTION-NIGHT COVERAGE FROM 7PM. THEY'LL BE JOINED IN THE STUDIO BY LINDA CLARK, PAUL HENRY, BRYCE EDWARDS, JOSIE PAGANI, TE ANGA NATHAN, MATTHEW HOOTON, AS WELLAS THE REST OF THE 3 NEWS TEAM, INCLUDING MYSELF, FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY. AND PADDYAND I WILL BE BACK BRIGHT AND EARLY THE MORNING AFTER AT 8AM FORA ONE AND HALF HOUR POST-ELECTION SPECIAL. WE'LL TALK TO ALL THE MAIN PLAYERS AS COALITION NEGOTIATIONS BEGIN AND BRING YOU FULLANALYSIS OF THE RESULT WITH A SUPER-PANEL. YES, A SUPER-PANEL OF EXPERT COMMENTATORS. UNTIL THEN, FROM ME AND THE REST OF THE NATION TEAM, ENJOY THE LAST WEEK OF THE CAMPAIGN. YES, AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK ALL THE VERY SPECIAL PEOPLE AT THE GREENLANE EYE CLINIC WHO MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO BE HERE TODAY, AND I'VE REALLY BEEN LOOKING FORWARD TO SAYING THIS. REMEMBER: THERE ARE JUST SIX DAYS TO GO. BY VIRGINIA PI-IILP. HUGO SNELL AND JOHN LING. “NWNABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONSWEREMADEPOSSIBLE WITHFLNDING FROM NZONAIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014 THIS PROGRAMME WAS MADE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE NZ ON AIR PLATINUM FUND.