NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014 NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. THIS MORNING, A GOVERNMENT TAKES SHAPE AS THE DEALS ARE DONE. THE PRIME MINISTER HAS REACHED OUT TO OTHER PARTIES TO BROADEN THE SCOPE OF HIS GOVERNMENT. THE PROOF WILL BE IN THE PUDDING. IT WOULD BE IN THE WORK THAT WE DO TO IMPROVE PARTNERSHIP SCHOOLS. I WILL KEEP ON ADVANCING THE INTERESTS OF OUR PEOPLE AND THAT OF OUR NATION. SO WHO REALLY WINS OUT OF THESE DEALS? WILL NATIONAL'S TROIKA OF SUPPORT PARTNERS PROVIDE THE STABLE LEGS OF THE NEW GOVERNMENT I ORATHREE-RING CIRCUS?I ARE THEY ANYTHING MORE THAN POLITICAL COVER FOR JOHN KEY? TE URUROA FLAVELL SPEAKS FOR THE FIRST TIME ABOUT HIS PARTY'S NEGOTIATIONS, PETER DUNNE REVEALS WHAT REALLY WENT ON IN HIS TALKS, AND DAVID SEYMOUR GIVES HIS FIRST SIT-DOWN INTERVIEW AS ACT LEADER. THEN A TURN TO THE LEFT - LABOUR'S ANDREVV LITTLE JOINS US. IS HE CONSIDERING A LEADERSHIP BID? AND CAN HIS PARTY SURVIVE ANOTHER PRIMARY INTACT? PLUS, HONE HARAWIRATALKS ABOUT HIS FUTURE. AND LATER - TWO OUT OF FIVE PEOPLE IN POVERTY ARE ALSO IN WORK. SO IS NATIONAL'S PUSH TO GET PEOPLE OFF THE DOLE ENOUGH TO KEEP THE WOLF FROM THE DOOR? PLUS, OUR PANEL - JESSICA WILLIAMS, FRAN O'SULLIVAN AND WILLIE JACKSON. THANKS FOR JOINING US. TO SEND US YOUR VIEWS THIS MORNING, TEXT 3330 FOR 50C, EMAIL THE NATION@TV3.CO.NZ, OR WE'RE ON TWITTER OR FACEBOOK AT THENATIONTVS. NOW, JOHN KEY HAS BEEN QUIETLY STITCHING TOGETHER A NEW GOVERNMENT THIS WEEK, ANNOUNCING JOBS AND DEALS FOR ACTAND UNITEDFUTURE IN RETURN FOR SUPPLY AND CONFIDENCE, WITH THE MAORI PARTY DEAL DUE THIS WEEKEND. SO THIS MORNING WE'LL TALK TO THE LEADERS OF ALL THREE PARTIES. AND FIRST UP, TE URUROA FLAVELL HAS BEEN ON THE ROAD THIS WEEK, TAKING NATIONAL'S 'SUPPLYAND CONFIDENCE' DEAL TO HIS PEOPLE. SO WHATS THE WORD FROM THE HUI? MR FLAVELL IS WITH US NOW FROM ROTORUA. GOOD MORNING, MR FLAVELL. I KIA ORA, LISA. I I WHAT ARE YOUR PEOPLE TELLING YOU? I PRETTY MUCH lN- ABOUT 3O HUI THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY IN THE LAST WEEK, THEY'RE PRETFYAGREEABLE TO US STAYING IN NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE PRIME MINISTER. THEY RECOGNISE THAT WE'RE THERE BY INVITATION UM, AND THAT THERE'S ONLY SO FAR WE CAN GO IN TERMS OF NEGOTIATIONS, BUT THEY'VE GIVEN US A CLEAR PICTURE AND A MANDATE TO CONTINUE TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE GOVERNMENT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING. BUT THEY'VE GIVEN US A CLEAR PICTURE AND A MANDATE TO CONTINUE TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE GOVERNMENT, YOU TALKED ABOUT A REVIEW OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM AND SPECIFIC POVERTY REDUCTION TARGETS. WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO GET OUT OF NATIONAL SO FAR? YOU PROBABLY HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE NEXT DAY OR SO TO GET THE FULL GAMBIT OF THOSE THINGS I THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE. I BUT PRETTY MUCH THE TEMPLATE HAS BEEN THE SAME AS WE'VE RUN IN THE LAST SIX YEARS OR SO, THAT IS, YES, WE PROVIDE STABILITY OF GOVERNMENT BY WAY OF SUPPORT TO THE BUDGET VOTE; THAT WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO VOTE AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT - THAT'S BEEN NO DIFFERENT TO WHAT WE'VE HAD IN THE LAST SIX YEARS; WE GET SOME WINS OVER SOME OF THE POLICY PLATFORMS THAT WE'VE PUT OUT ON THE ELECTION TRAIL; WE GET THE ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE GOVERNMENT OVER BUDGET GAINS AND ALSO MINISTERIAL APPOINTMENTS, WHICH, I SAY, WILL BE ROLLED OUT IN THE NEXT DAY OR SO. SO IN GENERAL TERMS, WHAT ARE THE WINS, DO YOU THINK, FOR YOU? WELL, I MEAN, THE FIRST THING IS THAT BECAUSE WE ARE THERE BY INVITATION, THAT WE FIRSTLY HAVE AN ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE SOME GAINS. IN TERMS OF THE BUDGET GAINS, YOU'LL HAVE TO SEE THAT, BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO BUILD ON THE STUFF THAT WE'VE ALREADY NEGOTIATED IN THE LAST SIX YEARS, MORE SPECIFICALLY IN LAST YEAR'S BUDGET, SO SOME OF THOSE THINGS WILL CONTINUE TO ROLL OUT. WHANAU ORA'S OBVIOUSLYA PRIORITY, AND, YOU KNOW- SO ARE YOU GETTING MORE FOR WHANAU ORA OUT OF THIS? THE GENERAL VIEW, I CAN TELL YOU, IS THAT THE PRIME MINISTER RECOGNISES, AS DOES THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, THAT THE WHANAU ORA IS A KAUPAPA THAT HAS SOME HUGE BENEFITS FOR THE COUNTRY AS A PHILOSOPHY TO TAKE FORWARD IN DEALING WITH SOME OF THE KEY ISSUES AROUND POVERTY. THERE IS A SUGGESTION THAT THEY'RE PREPARED TO ALLOW US TO RUN THAT FORWARD, AND THAT'S ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE. BUT WE RECOGNISE ALSO, THAT, IN THE END, THROUGHOUT THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, THAT PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT PRETTY MUCH ONE THING - THATS EMPLOYMENT. AND WE RECOGNISE THAT WE MUST MAKE SOME GAINS ON THAT, SO THE FIELD OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IS ONE PLACE THAT WE'D DEFINITELY LIKE TO BE, I AND WE'RE HOPING, OF COURSE, I THATA MINISTERIAL PORTFOLIO IS WIDE ENOUGH TO ALLOW US TO HAVE INFLUENCE OVER THINGS SUCH AS HOUSING, I HEALTH, EDUCATION. WHY? I BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE STRATEGIES THAT WE'VE ALREADY DEVELOPED OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS OR SO. WHEN YOU'RE TALKING THERE ABOUT JOBS, IS THERE THE PROSPECT OF SOME ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PORTFOLIO OR ASSOCIATE MINISTER IN THAT AREA? OR JUST MAORI AFFAIRS, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? YOU'LL HAVE TO WAIT, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THIS, IS THAT HAVING DEVELOPED THE HE KAI KEI AKU RINGA- MAORI ECONOMIC STRATEGY, IT'S SITTING THERE ON THE TABLE, ALONG WITH THE MAORI HEALTH STRATEGY, THE MAORI HOUSING STRATEGY, THE MAORI LANGUAGE STRATEGY. WE'RE FAIRLY DETERMINED TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE ARE ADVANCED, RATHER THAN JUST SIMPLY BE STRATEGIES THAT SIT IN THE CUPBOARD. AND WE'VE GIVEN THE PRIME MINISTER COMMITMENT THAT THAT'S WHERE WE WANT TO BE, AND HE IS IN THE CURRENT THROES OF CONSIDERING THAT PROPOSAL. THE OTHER TWO PARTIES - THEIR DEALS ARE SIGNED, SEALED AND DELIVERED, SO THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOME STICKING POINTS HERE WITH YOU. WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN? I OH, NOT TOO MANY STICKING POINTS. I I MEAN, LOOK, SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT ARE CERTAINLY THE ISSUES OF POVERTY. WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT, ACTUALLY, THE WHOLE NOTION THATA LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE DID NOT VOTE. THAT'S A HUGE CONCERN FOR US - 45% OF MAORI - THOSE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE - DID NOT PARTICIPATE. I so THAT'S HUGE FOR us. I AND, I SUPPOSE, THERE ARE THE SMALL STICKING POINTS, BUT YOU'VE GOTTA REMEMBER- SO YOU ARE ASKING FOR SPECIFIC-? ARE YOU ASKING FOR SPECIFIC POVERTY TARGETS? REDUCTION TARGETS? I NOT SPECIFICALLY, I BUT WE CERTAINLY WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN DECISION-MAKING AROUND STRATEGIES TO DEAL WITH THAT. THAT'S WHERE WHANAU ORA COMES IN, ALONG WITH THE OTHER STRATEGIES I TALKED ABOUT, BECAUSE THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A CLEAR LINK WITH ISSUES OF HEALTH, ISSUES OF HOUSING THAT LINK INTO HOW ISSUES OF POVERTY ARE PLAYED OUT. WHATABOUT PROTECTING THE MAORI SEATS? IS THAT PART OF IT? CERTAINLY, THE PROTECTION OF THE MAORI SEATS, BUT, I MEAN, THE PRIME MINISTER HAS LEFT THAT ALONE, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT SIX YEARS AGO, THAT WAS A NATIONAL PARTY POLICY, AND BECAUSE OF THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MAORI PARTY, THAT IT'S BEEN PUT ASIDE NOW. THE PRIME MINISTER'S SUGGESTING THAT UNTIL MAORIDOM IS READY TO DO THAT, THAT'S NOT ON THE TABLE, SO IN THAT REGARD, CERTAINLY THERE'S SOMETHING THERE TO BE PURSUED AROUND THE ENTRENCHMENT OF MAORI SEATS, BUT IT'S NOTAS IF IT'S GOING TO BE AT FRONT AND CENTRE AND WILL GET IN THE ROAD OF US MOVING TOWARDS SIGNING UP TO A RELATIONSHIP ACCORD. YOU MUSTADMIT THAT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH NATIONAL HAS COST YOU. SO IS THIS DEAL WORTH IT OR SHOULD YOU BE WALKING AWAY? WOULD THAT BE THE POLITICALLY ASTUTE THING TO DO? WELL, WHO'S TO KNOW? THATS ARGUABLE. BUTI CAN SAY THAT OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS, THAT THROUGH OUR MINISTERIAL PORTFOLIOS AND THROUGH POLICY GAINS THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE, CLEARLY WE'VE MADE A DIFFERENCE FOR MANY THOUSANDS OF MAORI AND NZERS IN THIS COUNTRY. BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY ACCEPT THERE'S A RISK IN THIS WHEN YOU SAY 'WHO'S TO KNOW?' YOU ACCEPT THAT THIS IS QUITE A RISK FOR YOU. WELL, SURE, BUT I THINK THE COUNTRY'S FAIRY CLEARLY CLEAR RIGHT NOW, THAT NATIONAL CAN GOVERN BY THEMSELVES. THEY DON'T NEED THE MAORI PARTY; NEVER NEEDED US THREE YEARS AGO; NEVER NEEDED US SIX YEARS AGO. BUT BECAUSE THE PRIME MINISTER BELIEVES THAT WE BRING SOMETHING SPECIAL TO THE GOVERNING ARRANGEMENT, THAT WE TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY, AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY THE FULL, UNANIMOUS VIEW OF ALL OF THE HUI THAT WE'VE HAD SO FAR, BY, YEAH, PRETTY MUCH UNANIMOUS DECISION, THAT WE NEED TO BE AT THE DECISION-MAKING TABLE. I THERE WAS VERY- ll= ANY- I I DIDN'T HEAR OF ANY DISSENTION ABOUT US BEING AT THE TABLE TO NEGOTIATE ANY GAINS THAT WE CAN GET, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT NATIONAL COULD GO AHEAD AND THE OPPOSITE WOULD APPLY - THAT IF WE'D SAT IN OPPOSITION, WE'D GETABSOLUTELY NOTHING. OUR PEOPLE ARE NOT THAT SILLY TO GIVE UP THAT OPPORTUNITY AND HAVE TOLD US, 'GET TO THE TABLE AND NEGOTIATE SOME GAINS, AS MUCH AS YOU CAN GET FROM THE GOVERNMENT, AND WE'LL BE HAPPY.' ALL RIGHT. WELL, HONE HARAWIRA WAS DOWN AT PARLIAMENT YESTERDAY, BASICALLY GMNG A FAREWELL SPEECH. AND IN IT, HE SAID THAT MAORI USED TO SPEAK WITH ONE VOICE UNTIL THE MAORI PARTY SIGNED UP WITH NATIONAL. AND HE SAID THAT YOU IGNORED HIS PLEAS TO STOP ACCEPTING WHAT HE CALLS 'NATIONAL PARTY LIES'. YOU SUPPORTED TAX CUTS, BENEFIT CUTS AND MILLION-DOLLAR BAILOUTS FOR FAILED FINANCE COMPANIES. IS THE OLIVE BRANCH THAT YOU EXTENDED TO HIM - IS THAT STILL ON OFFER? OH, LOOK, STILL EARLY DAYS YET. I'VE MADE A CLEAR STATEMENT THAT- AND IT'S STILL TO BE DEBATED, AND WE'LL PROBABLY DO THAT AT THE AGM AT THE END OF OCTOBER, BUT THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF THE MAORI PARTY GETTING NEXT TO ANY ARRANGEMENT ASSOCIATED WITH INTERNET PARTY, AND INDEED KIM DOTCOM. UNTIL THAT HAS BEEN DEALT WITH, AND UNTIL WE'VE HAD THE DISCUSSION, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING ELSE IS SECONDARY. AND I SUPPOSE THE VIEW IS THAT WHILE HONE MIGHT HAVE- AND INDEED THE MANA PARTY MIGHT HAVE DITCHED US WITH RESPECT TO WHAT WE HAD OR HAD NOT DONE, ACTUALLY, WE'VE DONE FAR AND AWAY MORE THAN THEY EVER DID. IN FACT, THE PROBLEM WOULD BE PROBABLY THAT THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING SITTING IN OPPOSITION- JUST ONE LAST THING, TE URUROA- THAT THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING SITTING IN OPPOSITION- JUST ONE LAST THING, TE URUROA- ...FOR MAORIDOM, WE MUST BE THERE. THAT THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING SITTING IN OPPOSITION- MR FLAVELL, ONE LAST THING. HE WAS MAKING A PLEA FOR SOMEONE TO PICK UP THE FEED THE KIDS BILL. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU WILL DO - THE MAORI PARTY? IN FACT, WE'VE ALREADY DONE IT. THE KICKSTART PROGRAMME THAT WE INTRODUCED LAST- <i>I l-lls BILL. I</i> ...LAST YEAR- HIS BILL. ...LAST YEAR- HIS BILL. HIS BILL. ...LAST YEAR- HIS BILL. PARDON? WELL, I MEAN, WHETHER IT'S HIS BILL OR A BILL WE'VE ALREADY DONE, THE OBJECT OF THE EXERCISE WAS TO FEED CHILDREN BREAKFAST WHEN THEY GO TO SCHOOL. WE'VE ALREADY DONE IT. IT'S ALREADY BEEN IN ACTION FOR THE LAST SIX TO 12 MONTHS, IN THE SENSE THAT WE'VE ALREADY PASSED THE BUDGETALLOCATION AND IT'S OUT OVER 25- 25,000 CHILDREN AREA ALREADY RECEMNG THE BENEFIT OF THAT PARTICULAR POLICY, SO, I MEAN, WE SUPPORTED IT, WE'RE PREPARED TO SUPPORT ITAT FIRST READING, BUT WE'RE ALREADY DOING IT, SO I DON'T SEE TOO MUCH OF A PROBLEM WITH THAT. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING. THAT'S TE URUROA FLAVELL FROM THE MAORI PARTY. I KIA ORA, LISA. I UNITEDFUTURE GOT ITS THIRD CONSECUTIVE AGREEMENT WITH NATIONAL THIS WEEK, EVEN THOUGH THE PARTY'S VOTE FELL TO JUST 4500 NATIONWIDE. PETER DUNNE IS HARD AT WORK MEETING HIS CONSTITUENTS RIGHT NOW, BUT I SPOKE TO HIM A SHORT TIME AGO AND BEGAN BYASKING HIM HOW NEGOTIATIONS WENT IN PRACTICAL TERMS. WELL, THEY WERE DIFFERENT FROM PREVIOUS NEGOTIATIONS, LISA, BECAUSE THIS TIME THE GOVERNMENT HAS A MAJORITY IN ITS POCKET, SO IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY NEED TO NEGOTIATE FROM A MAJORITY. SO WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT INSTEAD WERE FOR SORTS OF AREAS THAT WE'VE WORKED ON IN THE PAST TOGETHER AND HOW WE MIGHT TAKE THOSE FORWARD IN THE FUTURE WITHOUT THERE BEING SPECIFIC POLICY AGREEMENTS AROUND THEM. DID YOU GO IN WITH SOME KIND OF WISH LIST, AND WHAT KIND OF PERCENTAGE OF WHAT YOU WISHED FOR DID YOU ACTUALLY GET? I WASN'T ENTIRELY SURE HOW THESE TALKS WERE GOING TO PAN OUT FOR THE REASONS WE JUST DISCUSSED, SO I HAD SOME THINGS IN MY BACK POCKET THAT I WAS PREPARED TO PUT ON THE TABLE IF IT CAME DOWN TO A SHOPPING-LIST ENVIRONMENT. BUT, BASICALLY, WHAT I WAS CONCERNED TO ENSURE WAS THAT WE HAD A GOOD WORKING ARRANGEMENT SO THAT THE ISSUES THAT WE WANTED TO PURSUE FROM OUR SIDE OF THE TABLE, WE WOULD BE ABLE TO DO SO OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS. SO THAT THE ISSUES THAT WE WANTED TO PURSUE FROM OUR SIDE OF THE TABLE, OH, THE USUAL SORTS OF THINGS. WE TALKED ABOUT FLEXI SUPER. NOW, THE FLEXI SUPER POLICY THAT WE HAD BYAGREEMENT PREVIOUSLY, GOT TO THE STAGE OF A GOVERNMENT DISCUSSION PAPER AND CONSULTATION ON IT. WHILE WE HAVEN'T GOTA SPECIFIC AGREEMENT AROUND IT THIS TIME, WE WILL CONTINUE ON THAT BECAUSE THE SUPERANNUATION DEBATE IS STILL ALIVE. I BUT IT'S NOT m THERE, MR DUNNE, I AND IF YOU SAID IT ONCE, YOU'VE SAID ITA HUNDRED TIMES ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL THAT YOUR TOP TWO POLICIES WERE THAT FLEXI SUPER AND THE OTHER ONE WAS INCOME SPLITTING. AND THE POINT ABOUT BOTH IS, AS I SAID AT THE BEGINNING, BECAUSE NATIONAL HAS AN OUTRIGHT MAJORITY, THESE ARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF AGREEMENTS. PREVIOUSLY, YOU WOULD TRADE AN AGREEMENT ON THESE POLICY POINTS IN RETURN FOR SUPPORT. THIS TIME WHAT NATIONAL WAS SAYING WAS, 'WE DON'T NEED YOUR SUPPORT, 'BUT WE WANT TO HAVE A WIDER WORKING RELATIONSHIP.' SO SPECIFIC POLICIES WERE NOT ON THE AGENDA, BUT THAT WIDER WORKING RELATIONSHIP, WHICH FUNNILY ENOUGH MEANS THAT- SO SPECIFIC POLICIES WERE NOT ON THE AGENDA, BUT THAT WIDER WORKING RELATIONSHIP, SO DOES THAT MEAN THAT NATIONAL HAS GIVEN YOU AN INDICATION, A CLEAR INDICATION, THAT THOSE TWO POLICIES ARE NON-STARTERS THIS TERM? NO. WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THEIR FATE SPECIFICALLY. BUT WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT WHAT BOXES YOU WERE GOING TO TICK, IF YOU LIKE, ON A CHECKLIST. AND THIS IS THE POINT WHERE THESE AGREEMENTS ARE DIFFERENT FROM THOSE THAT HAVE GONE BEFOREHAND BECAUSE PREVIOUSLY THEY WERE VERY SIMPLE. YOU'VE GOTA SUITE OF POLICIES ACCEPTED IN RETURN FOR GMNG THE GOVERNMENT SUPPORT. THIS TIME THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T NEED SUPPORT, AND WHAT IT'S SAYING IS IT WANTS SUPPORT ON CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY ONLY. IT'S NOT SEEKING SUPPORT ON ANY OTHER MATTERS, BUT THERE'S THE AVENUE THERE FOR DISCUSSION. SO IN ONE SENSE, IT'S AN EVEN BETTER DEAL BECAUSE WE'VE GOT AN ENTREE TO TALK ABOUT ISSUES AND WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY COMMITTED TO SUPPORTING THEM IF WE DISAGREE. WELL, YOU'VE SAID THAT YOU'RE BASICALLY THERE TO SMOOTH OFF THE ROUGH EDGES OF THE GOVERNMENTS LEGISLATIVE PROGRAMME, BUT I'M JUST WONDERING HOW YOU CAN DO THAT, BECAUSE YOU'VE BASICALLY OUTLINED THE LACK OF POWER THAT YOU HAVE IN THIS SITUATION, AND THEY HAVE THE NUMBERS EVERY TIME. YES, AND THIS IS A GOOD-FAITH AGREEMENT. THE PRIME MINISTER HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT WHILE HE DOESN'T NEED THOSE ADDITIONAL NUMBERS, HE WANTS TO WORK WITH PEOPLE TO GIVE HIS GOVERNMENT MORE BREADTH. I GUESS THATS GOING TO BE THE TEST. SO WHEN ISSUES ARISE WHERE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, BOTH ACT, OURSELVES, THE MAORI PARTY, THE QUESTION WILL BE, EVEN THOUGH OUR VOTES ARE NOT NECESSARY, HOW CAN WE WORK EITHER INDMDUALLY OR COLLECTIVELY TO MAKE CHANGES. A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT IS GOING TO BE THE RMA, ISN'T IT? THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT. BECAUSE YOU WERE PART OF BLOCKING THAT IN THE LAST TERM. WHAT WOULD THEY NEED TO DO? WHAT CHANGES WOULD THERE NEED TO BE TO GET YOUR SUPPORT, GIVEN THAT THEY WANT A WIDER MAN DATE? I'VE MADE IT VERY CLEAR RIGHT FROM OVER A YEAR AGO THAT I HAD NO OBJECTIONS AND DON'T HAVE ANY OBJECTIONS STILL TO CHANGING THE PROCESSES BY WHICH THE ACT OPERATES, TO SPEEDING UP APPLICATION TIMES AND ALL OF THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. NONE WHATSOEVER. BUT I DO OBJECT TO CHANGING THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACT TO WEAKENING THE PRINCIPLES. SO I GUESS WHERE NATIONAL WOULD NEED, IF IT WAS TO GET MY SUPPORT FOR THE LEGISLATION TO MAKE SOME PROGRESS, WOULD BE ON MAKING SURE THAT THE PRINCIPLES AND KEY OPERATING PROCEDURES OF THE ACT AREN'T WEAKENED. BUT THE PROCESSES? NO PROBLEM VVITH SPEEDING THOSE UP AT ALL. ALL RIGHT. SO, I JUST WANT TO LOOK AT YOUR NUMBERS. THE LEGALISE CANNABIS PARTY - THEY GOT ALMOST DOUBLE THE PARTY VOTE OF UNITEDFUTURE AND THE BAN 1080 PARTY GOT ABOUT THE SAME AS YOU, SO IS 4500 VOTES A MANDATE FOR BEING A MINISTER? WELL, I DON'T THINK THATS THE ISSUE, ACTUALLY. I THINK THE ISSUE IS I WAS ELECTED AS THE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR OHARIU. THE PRIME MINISTER MADE IT CLEAR BEFORE THE ELECTION THAT REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME IN TERMS OF WHAT NATIONAL DID, IT WOULD LOOK TO WORK WITH THE PARTIES THAT HAD BEEN PARTNERS TO IT PREVIOUSLY - ACT, UNITEDFUTURE, THE MAORI PARTY. HE HONOURED THAT COMMITMENT. THE INVITATION TO COME TO TALKS AND TO TAKE A ROLE WAS THE PRIME MINISTER'S INVITATION. I DIDN'T GO BANGING ON THE DOOR SAYING, 'HEY, LET ME IN,' BECAUSE I HAD NOTHING TO GO WITH. SO I DON'T THINK THE ISSUE OF MANDATE ARISES IN THAT RESPECT. OK, I'M WONDERING HOW LONG ARE YOU GOING TO BE AROUND FOR, DO YOU THINK? WILL YOU STICK OUT THE TERM? I MEAN, IS UNITEDFUTURE GOING TO BE YOUR PARTY FOR THE TERM, OR DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABSORBED INTO THE NATIONAL PARTY AT SOME POINT? NO, LOOK, I WAS ELECTED AS THE UNITEDFUTURE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT. I'VE ALWAYS GIVEN A COMMITMENT TO SERVE A FULL TERM AFTER EACH ELECTION AS THE UNITEDFUTURE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, AND THATS WHAT I'LL BE DOING. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING, PETER DUNNE. I'LL BE DOING. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING, PETER DUNNE. THANK YOU. THE THIRD PART OF NATIONAUS SUPPORT TRIO IS ACT. YESTERDAY ITS LEADER, JAMIE WHYTE, RESIGNED, SAYING THAT THE ELECTION RESULT WAS CLEAR AND HE HAD TO GO. NEW LEADER AND EPSOM MP DAVID SEYMOUR IS HERE IN THE STUDIO. GOOD MORNING, MR SEYMOUR. GOOD MORNING. SEYMOUR IS HERE IN THE STUDIO. GOOD MORNING, MR SEYMOUR. GOOD MORNING. SEYMOUR IS HERE IN THE STUDIO. THANK YOU. HOW WILL ACT BE DIFFERENT WITH YOU IN CHARGE? WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY WE'VE GOT IN THE NEXT THREE YEARS. WE'RE GOING TO BE DISCIPLINED. WE'RE GOING TO BE COLLEGIAL. WE'RE GOING TO STAY ON MESSAGE. WE'RE GOING TO REACH OUT TO NZERS WHO WANTA BIGGER ROLE FOR FREE ENTERPRISE AND FOR COMMUNITY, AS OPPOSED TO BIG GOVERNMENT, AND GIVE THEM A PARTY THAT THEY CAN CONFIDENTLY VOTE FOR IN 2017. DIDN'T JAMIE JUST DO THAT AND GET 0.7%'? I THINK THAT WE CAN REVIEW THE LAST RESULT. I THINK WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENED IS THAT WE'VE BEGUN A REVIVAL OF THE PARTY. AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR, WE WERE ON 0.0%. POLLING COMPANIES WERE LITERALLY CALLING A THOUSAND PEOPLE AND NOT FINDING A SINGLE PERSON WHO WANTED TO VOTE ACT. WE'VE ACTUALLY HAD QUITE A LOT OF REJUVENATION THIS YEAR. NOT ENOUGH IN TIME TO GET JAMIE INTO PARLIAMENT. NONETHELESS WE ACTUALLY HAVE HAD POSITIVE MOMENTUM FROM A VERY VERY LOW BASE, REMEMBER, AND I INTEND TO CONTINUE THAT MOMENTUM. JAMIE WHYTE CAME ON THIS PROGRAMME THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION AND SAID HE WANTED TO STAY ON. I on: YOU GIVE HIM A BIT OF A NUDGE? I NOTATALL. I THINK ONE THING YOU HAVE TO REALISE IS THAT POLITICIANS ARE PEOPLE. JAMIE WHYTE HAS GIVEN EIGHT MONTHS FULL-TIME FOR FREE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE ELECTION AND NZ'S POLITICAL DEBATE AND TO THE ACT PARTY, BUT CAN HE SUSTAIN THAT FOR A FURTHER THREE YEARS OUT OF PARLIAMENT? HE DECIDED HE COULDN'T AND ON VERY GOOD TERMS. HE ACTUALLY SAID IN HIS RESIGNATION THAT THE ELECTION RESULT WAS CLEAR. CLEARLY SAYING WHAT? WELL, IN THE SENSE THAT HE COULD NOT BE IN PARLIAMENT, AND THAT'S WHAT GAVE RISE TO THE CONSIDERATIONS THAT I JUST MENTIONED. OK, WELL, IN TERMS OF YOUR CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY AGREEMENT, YOU WENT INTO NEGOTIATIONS WITH A DOCUMENT, DIDN'T YOU, OR WITH A WISH LIST? SO WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THAT DO YOU RECKON YOU GOT IN THE END? OH, I WOULDN'T PUT IT IN QUANTITATIVE TERMS, BUT- YOU RECKON YOU GOT IN THE END? BECAUSE THE THINGS THAT WE GOT ARE IMPORTANT. FIRST OF ALL, PARTNERSHIP SCHOOLS - KURA HOURUA- SO ARE THE THINGS YOU MISSED OUT ON. SO AS A ROUGH GUIDE, HOW MUCH DID YOU GET OF WHAT YOU WANTED? I THINK THAT PROBABLY WE GOT ABOUT HALF OF THE THINGS THAT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT TO US. L<soso%?I YEAH, LOOK, BURGLARY IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE HEARD ABOUT REPEATEDLY ON THE DOORSTEPS OF EPSOM. WE HAD A POLICY TO CRACK DOWN ON THAT. THAT'S A NON-STARTER FOR NOW, BUT WE'LL KEEP ADVOCATING IT. WE CAMPAIGNED ON REDUCING CORPORATE WELFARE, REDUCING MIDDLE-CLASS WELFARE IN RETURN FOR CONSIDERABLE TAX CUTS. WE'RE NOT IN A POSITION TO NEGOTIATE THAT. NONETHELESS, I THINK THAT THEY'RE THINGS THAT WOULD BE VERY GOOD FOR NZ AND WHICH WE'LL KEEP ADVOCATING. WHAT YOU DID GET AGREEMENT TO WORK ON WAS CHARTER SCHOOLS, SO, SPECIFICALLY, DO YOU HAVE IN YOUR MIND A TARGET FOR WHAT YOU WANT, I HOW MANY MORE SCHOOLS You WANT? I NO, I DON'T HAVE ATARGET FOR THE NUMBER OF SCHOOLS WE SHOULD HAVE, BECAUSE THIS POLICY IS GROUND UP. I IT'S NOT DRIVEN FROM WELLINGTON. I IT WILL DEPEND ON THE QUALITY OF PEOPLE WHO APPLY AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WISH TO GO TO THEM. BUT CERTAINLY WE'D LIKE TO KEEP THE PROCESS OPEN SO THAT WE CAN TAKE APPLICATIONS. AND DEPENDING ON THE QUALITY OF THE APPLICANTS, YOU KNOW, WE MAY HAVE MORE SCHOOLS ESTABLISHED IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS, BUT IT HAS TO BE DRIVEN BY PEOPLE AND THEIR COMMUNITIES, RATHER THAN BY WELLINGTON. BUT ULTIMATELY YOUR DESIRE IS, ISN'T IT, TO HAVE THE OPTION FOR SCHOOLS TO OPT IN TO BEING A CHARTER SCHOOL? I THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT. I THATS OUR POLICY. THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT. THAT'S OUR POLICY. SO DOES NATIONAL-? HAS NATIONAL GIVEN YOU ANY INDICATION OF WHETHER IT SUPPORTS A MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION? I THINK I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORK VERY HARD TO GET THAT OVER THE LINE AND DEMONSTRATE TO THEM HOW IT CAN WORK, BUT WHAT I SAY TO PEOPLE LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, PAT NEWMAN FROM HORA HORA PRIMARY IN WHANGAREI, WHO SAYS THAT HE'D LIKE TO HAVE THE RESOURCES OF A PARTNERSHIP SCHOOL, WELL, I'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO GIVE HIM THAT OPTION - HAVE A PROCESS WHERE HIS SCHOOL COMMUNITY, WHERE HIS BOARD OF TRUSTEES CAN COME TO A CONSENSUS THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO CONVERT TO PARTNERSHIP SCHOOL STATUS. WHAT HE WOULD DISCOVER IS THAT HE'D GET NO MORE AND NO LESS FUNDING THAN HE GETS RIGHT NOW AND THAT HE'D HAVE A LOT MORE ACCOUNTABILITY IN TERMS OF THE RESULTS THAT THEY'RE REQUIRED TO GET. ALL RIGHT, AND- IN TERMS OF THE RESULTS THAT THEY'RE REQUIRED TO GET. ALL RIGHT, AND- AND NONETHELESS, THE FLEXIBILITY THAT WOULD GIVE HIM I THINK WOULD BE A REAL BOON FOR HIS SCHOOLAND HIS COMMUNITY. ANOTHER PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT'S GOING TO BE SIGNIFICANT IS THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT, IN TERMS OF CHANGES TO THAT. NATIONAL COULDN'T GET THAT THROUGH IN THE LAST TERM. WE HEARD THEN FROM UNITED- PETER DUNNE SAYING THAT HE REALLY WANTS THE PRINCIPLES OF PROTECTION OF THE ENVIRONMENT TO BE RETAINED IN THE ACT. ENVIRONMENT FIRST, NOT BUSINESS, IF HE'S GOING TO SUPPORT IT. WELL, NATIONAL DOESN'T NEED HIS SUPPORT, BUT THEY WANT TO BROADEN THEIR MANDATE. COULD YOU WORK WITH WHAT PETER DUNNE'S TALKING ABOUT THERE? NO, I ACTUALLY DON'T THINK THAT HE'S BEING HONESTABOUT WHAT THE SECTION 6 AND 7 CHANGES ARE. OVERWHELMINGLY, THEY'RE ABOUT REMOVING THE ANTI-SUBDMSION BIAS. BUT IT'S ALL THERE - PROTECTION FOR THE NATURAL FEATURES OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND HAVING A BALANCE WITH BEING ABLE TO ACTUALLY USE THE ENVIRONMENT FOR PEOPLE. AND HERE'S THE REALITY - WE ARE A COUNTRY THAT IS 0.8% BUILT UP AND YET WE ARE CREATING A TENANT GENERATION OF PEOPLE THAT CANNOT AFFORD HOMES. DO YOU WANT NATIONAL TO MOVE MORE IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION, THEN? YOU SAY THAT PETER DUNNE'S GOT IT WRONG. IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT YOUR VOTE TO THIS LEGISLATION, WOULD YOU WANTA MOVE FURTHER FINANCIALLY? NO, I THINK WHAT THEY GOT TO WITH SECTION 6 AND 7 AS ORIGINALLY PROPOSED, LATE 2011, EARLY 2012 WAS VERY GOOD. WOULD WE GO FURTHER? WE'D LIKE TO, BUT ONE THING I WOULD SAY ABOUT THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT IS THAT IT'S A 900-PAGE DOCUMENT. IT IS A VERY COMPLEX PIECE OF LEGISLATION, AND OUR GOAL, OF COURSE, WOULD ACTUALLY BE TO START AGAIN COMPLETELY. BUT BASED ON WHERE WE ARE IN OUR CURRENT NEGOTIATING POSITIONS, SUPPORTING WHERE THE TECHNICAL ADVISORY GROUP GOT TO A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO IS A VERY GOOD START. OK, IN TERMS OF YOUR JOB, NATIONAL CREATED A NEW JOB FOR YOU, MR UNDERSECRETARY. NO, IF THE CONSTITUTION ACT 1986- NATIONAL CREATED A NEW JOB FOR YOU, MR UNDERSECRETARY. NO, IF THE CONSTITUTION ACT 1986- WELL, THEY HANDED IT TO YOU. YES, THEY DID. EVEN THOUGH ACT HATES WORK SCHEMES. ACT HATES GOVERNMENT WORK SCHEMES, AND YOU'RE A SINGLE-MP PARTY AND YOU'RE GETTING ABOUT HALF A MILLION DOLLARS OF TAXPAYER MONEY. IS THAT HOW YOU CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING? BECAUSE THAT'S A BIG THING FOR YOU, CUTTING GOVERNMENT SPENDING. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THE SIZE OF THE EXECUTIVE HAS NOT CHANGED. THERE'S THE SAME AMOUNT OF RESOURCE GOING INTO THE EXECUTIVE. WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT SOME OF IT HAS BEEN ALLOCATED, AND A VERY SMALL PORTION OVERALL, I MIGHT ADD, TO ME AS THE UNDERSECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND REGULATORY REFORM. THE QUESTION- YEAH, BUT THE QUESTION- NO, THE QUESTION IS, MR SEYMOUR, IS THAT ARE YOU THE BEST USE OF THAT MONEY, THAT GOVERNMENT MONEY? QUESTION IS, MR SEYMOUR, IS THAT ARE YOU THE BEST USE OF THAT MONEY, THAT GOVERNMENT MONEY? WELL, I CERTAINLY INTEND TO PROVE SO. THIS PARTNERSHIP SCHOOL POLICY IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE BEEN HEAVILY INVOLVED WITH BEFORE. IT'S SOMETHING I'M VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT. IT'S ULTIMATELY ABOUT ALLOWING KIDS WHO ARE NOT SUCCEEDING IN THE CURRENT EDUCATION SYSTEM TO LEARN SKILLS, GET QUALIFICATIONS, EVENTUALLY HAVE A JOB AND A CAREER AND FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES. AND IF WE CAN PULL THIS OFF BY IMPROVING THE PARTNERSHIP SCHOOL POLICY OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS, YES, I DO THINK THAT'S A GOOD INVESTMENT. YOU'RE VALUE FOR MONEY, YOU SAY? OK, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. WE'LL LOOK AT THE RISE OF THE WORKING POOR LATER, BUT NEXT LABOUR LOOKED IN A MESS THIS WEEK AS IT STARTED ITS SEARCH FOR A NEW LEADER AND A NEW DIRECTION. SO IS ANDREW LITTLE PART OF THE SOLUTION? HE'S WITH US AFTER THE BREAK. WELCOME BACK. IT LOOKS LIKE THE CONTEST FOR LABOUR'S LEADERSHIP WILL BE A BRUISING ONE, GIVEN THE SNIPING THAT BEGAN THIS PAST WEEK, BUT ONE OF THE MEN CONSIDERED A UNIFIER INSIDE THE CAUCUS IS FORMER UNION BOSS AND LAWYER ANDREW Ll'l'I'LE, WHO JOINS US NOW FROM NEW PLYMOUTH. BUT ONE OF THE MEN CONSIDERED A UNIFIER INSIDE THE CAUCUS IS FORMER UNION BOSS AND LAWYER ANDREW Ll'l'I'LE, WASN'T REALLY A GREAT START TO THE LEADERSHIP RACE THIS WEEK WITH NAME-CALLING. WHAT DOES THAT TELL US ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON WITHIN THE LABOUR PARTY? I THINK THE RESULT WE HAD IN THIS ELECTION HAS BEEN A PRETTY DIFFICULT ONE FOR PEOPLE TO GET TO GRIPS WITH, SO EMOTIONS ARE RUNNING A LITTLE HIGH. BUT WE DO NEED TO KEEP THIS SEEMLY. WE DO HAVEA LEADERSHIP ELECTION RACE IN THE PARTY NOW. THAT'S INEVITABLE, BUT WE'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE, AS WE DID IN THE LAST ELECTION RACE ABOUTA YEAR AGO, THAT WE CAN CONDUCT THIS IN A GOOD WAY AND IN A WAY THAT'S POSITIVE FOR THE PARTY, AND I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT WE'LL BE ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THIS TIME. ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT THROWING A HAT INTO THE RING? I'M JUST WAITING TO SEE WHETHER I'M GOING TO BE STILL IN PARLIAMENT. I WON'T KNOW UNTIL 2 O'CLOCK TODAY, AND, REALLY, MY EFFORTS IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON CLOSING OUT SOME WORK AND THEN THINKING ABOUT WHAT THE PARTY NEEDS TO DO IRRESPECTIVE OF WHO IS THE LEADER, BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S THE BIG CHALLENGE IN FRONT OF US NOW, IS WORKING OUT WHY WE GOT THE RESULT WE DID AND WORKING OUT HOW WE CAN NOW START THE PROCESS OF COMMUNICATING TO NZ IN A WAY THAT THEY WANT TO BE TALKED TO AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY, LISTENED TO. THAT'S THE TASK AHEAD OF US, AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON. BUT IF YOU THINK THE BEST WAY TO SERVE THE LABOUR PARTY IS TO VIE FOR THE LEADERSHIP, I wll.l. YOU e0 FOR n? I WELL, IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I'VE GIVEN THOUGHT TO AT THIS POINT. NO DOUBT, IF I'M CONFIRMED TODAY, I'LL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO THINK ABOUT IT. IF I'M NOT, THEN I'LL FIND OTHER WAYS TO SUPPORT THE CAUSE, BECAUSE WHAT THE PARTY STANDS FOR IS VERY IMPORTANT. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING FOR A FAIRER DEAL AND A BETTER DEAL BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GETTING IT AT THE MOMENT. TELL ME, DO YOU THINK THERE DOES NEED TO BE MORE THAN TWO CANDIDATES IN THE RACE, THOUGH? I WOULD THAT BE BETTER FOR LABOUR? I WELL, PEOPLE WILL PUT THEIR HAT IN THE RING IF THEY THINK THAT THEY'RE UP FOR THE JOB AND ARE PREPARED TO GO THROUGH THE RIGOURS OF IT. I THINK EVERYBODY IN THE PARTY - CAUCUS MEMBERS, PARTY MEMBERS - ARE SEARCHING AROUND FOR WHAT LIES BEHIND THE RESULT THAT WE ACHIEVED, AND PEOPLE SAY THE POLICIES WERE PRETTY GOOD; WE HAD A CAMPAIGN THAT WAS WELL SUPPORTED. I PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THE REASON WHY. I SO WHAT IN YOUR VIEWARE THE REASONS BEHIND THAT DRUBBING? WELL, THERE ARE A LOT OF COMPLEX FACTORS. I THINKA COMBINATION OF SOME OF THE VERY BIG POLICIES WE HAD OUT THERE ALONG WITH THE POTENTIAL LINE-UP OF COALITION PARTNERS, ITHINK, IN THE END, SCARED PEOPLE. PEOPLE ARE WANTING A LEVEL OF SECURITY - ECONOMIC SECURITY, PERSONAL SECURITY - AND THEY DIDN'T SEE US DELIVERING THAT, PROCESS BUT ALSO PART OF TH AND I THINK PART OF THE REVIEVV I E CONVERSATION THAT VVE HAVE AND THE WAY WE HAVE IT OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS HAS GOT TO LOOK AT JUST THE SORT OF THINGS WE'RE PUTTING UP, THE WAY WE'RE PUTTING THEM UPAND WHETHER ACTUALLY THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE ARE AT THE MOMENT. WE HAVE A BIG CHALLENGE AHEAD OF US TO DO THAT. MR LITTLE, YOU MENTIONED A COUPLE OF THE BIG POLICIES YOU THOUGHT SCARED PEOPLE. WHICH ONES DO YOU MEAN? WELL, I THINK RAISING THE ELIGIBILITYAGE FOR SUPERANNUATION. OF COURSE, IT'S A SENSIBLE IDEA IN TERMS OF THE FUTURE COST OF SUPERANNUATION. IT MAKES SENSE ON PAPER, BUT THE REALITY IS IT FRIGHTENS PEOPLE, WORKING PEOPLE. IT CAME UP TIME AND AGAIN IN THE CAMPAIGN. PEOPLE INTERPRET THAT POLICY, SAYING, 'GEE, THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO WORK ANOTHER TWO YEARS,' EVEN THOUGH THE WAY THE POLICY'S WRITTEN, IT WON'T AFFECT A LOT OF PEOPLE FOR ANOTHER 10, 15, EVEN LONGER YEARS. SO WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHETHER IT'S THE WAY WE PRESENTED IT, WHETHER IT'S THE RIGHT POLICY FOR NOW - THOSE ARE THE SORTS OF THINGS WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE VERY HONEST AND BLUNT WITH OURSELVES ABOUT WHETHER WE SHOULD BE PUTTING THAT SORT OF THING OUT THERE. TELL ME, DO YOU THINK ACTUALLY WITHIN LABOUR THERE ARE TWO PARTIES FIGHTING TO GET OUT, THAT THERE ARE A DMSION BETWEEN, SAY, THE CENTRISTS AND THE OTHERS? LABOUR HAS SPAWNED A NUMBER OF POLITICAL PARTIES ACROSS THE SPECTRUM AT THE MOMENT. NO, THERE ISN'T. WE ARE DESCRIBED AS A BROAD CHURCH; IT GETS A LI'I'I'LE FACILE AFTER A WHILE. WE ARE A PARTY THAT HAS A BROAD RANGE OF INTERESTS, AND, ACTUALLY, IN SPITE OF ALL THE COMMENTS ABOUT OUR CAUCUS OVER THE LAST YEAR OR THREE YEARS, WE'VE ACTUALLY BEEN PRETTY UNITED IN OUR PURPOSE. AND THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE DIFFERENCES OF EMPHASIS AND PRIORITIES AND PREFERENCES THAT PEOPLE HAVE, BUTACTUALLY WE ARE PRETTY CLEAR ABOUT GOOD JOBS, STRONG ECONOMY TO DELIVER THOSE JOBS AND FAIRNESS FOR PEOPLE - THAT'S WHAT WE ULTIMATELY STAND FOR. AND WE HAVE TO DO A BIT BETTER ABOUT TALKING TO PEOPLE ABOUT THAT AND HEARING FROM NZERS ABOUT HOW THEY WANT TO SEE THAT DELIVERED IN A POLITICAL WAY. SO, JUST VERY BRIEFLY, IN 10 SECONDS, CAN YOU TELL ME VVHAT ARE THE UNIONS SAYING ABOUT THE LEADERSHIP RACE? VVHAT ARE YOU HEARING? OH, I THINK THEY ARE SAYING, 'LISTEN, THE CONTEST IS ON.' THEY WANTA LEADER WHO IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO UNIFY, WHO IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO LEAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH THEM AS WELL PUBLIC OF NZ AND LEAD UP A AS THE PARTY AS VVELL AS THi POSITIVE PLATFORM FOR 2017. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING. THAT'S ANDREW Ll'l'I'LE. I YOU'RE WELCOME. I AND LABOUR HAS ALSO ATFRACTED PLENTY OF ATTENTION ON TWITTER. HERE'S A SNAPSHOT OF WHAT WENT DOWN. THE LABOUR LEADERSHIP RACE WAS BIG NEWS THIS WEEK, WITH DAVID PARKER CONFIRMED AS ACTING LEADER AND ANOTHER POTENTIAL TARGET AND THE MUSING THAT THE TEMPORARY TEAM AT THE TOP CAN'T DO ANY WORSE. DAVID CUNLIFFE'S WIFE'S NOT-SO-ANONYMOUS 'TWITTER ACCOUNTALSO HIT THE HEADLINES. NOT EVERYONE DISAPPROVED OF HER TIGER WIFE APPROACH. AND IN A WEEK OF NAME-CALLING, ONE TWEETER WONDERS, DO YOU NEED TO BE NAMED DAVID TO TAKE ON NATIONAL'S GOLIATH? AND WE'LL DEBATE THE BEST PERSON TO LEAD LABOUR WITH JESSICA WILLIAMS, FRAN O'SULLIVAN AND WILLIE JACKSON LATER. BUT AFTER THE BREAK - NATIONAL WANTS TO TACKLE POVERTY BY GETTING PEOPLE OFF BENEFITS, BUT IS A JOB AND AN EDUCATION ENOUGH ANY MORE? THE REALITY OF LIFE FOR THE WORKING POOR - THAT'S NEXT. WELCOME BACK. JOHN KEY HAS IDENTIFIED TACKLING CHILD POVERTY IS A PRIORITY THIS TERM AND RECKONS GETTING PEOPLE OFF WELFARE AND INTO WORK IS CENTRAL TO THAT. BUT WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WORKING NZERS STILL BELOW THE POVERTY LINE, I ls IT THAT SIMPLE ANY MORE? I LUCY WARHURST ON WHEN A JOB JUST ISN'T ENOUGH. Isorreurrmwslcl I MEET ROSIE AND TWO OF HER DAUGHTERS. I AFTER SEVEN YEARS ON BENEFITS, SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR HERSELF AND HER FAMILY. SOMETIMES MY KIDS WILL STARVE FOR A DAY UNTIL THE NEXT PAY BECAUSE IT'S NOT ENOUGH, <i>I AND THEN I- I</i> AND SO WHEN I- SOMETHING CLICKED IN MY MIND, AND I THOUGHT, UM, I'D GO BACK AND STUDY. DETERMINED NOT TO SEE HER KIDS GO HUNGRYAND FED UP WITH RELYING ON FOOD PARCELS, SHE MADE A DECISION. IT'S THE SHAME, YOU KNOW WHEN YOU GO INTO WINZ FOR A FOOD GRANT I AND, UM, YOU KNOW, I THE EMBARRASSMENT BECAUSE THEY'D KIND OF SEE ME, WHAT, EVERY TWO WEEKS, EVERY THREE WEEKS, AND I GOT SICK AND TIRED OF IT, AND, UM, SO I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, YOU KNOW, 'ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.' WITH A DEGREE IN SOCIAL WORK UNDER HER BELT, SHE'S NOW GOT A JOB AS A COMMUNITY SUPPORT WORKER. IT'S BEEN REALLY GOOD BECAUSE, NO, WE'RE NOT STRUGGLING. I MEAN WE'RE JUST GETTING BY, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE MINIMUM WAGE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT COMPLAINING, SO, UM- AND I WISH NOT TO GO BACK ON THE BENEFITATALL. SINCE DECEMBER 2010, NEARLY 60,000 PEOPLE HAVE COME OFF WELFARE, ALTHOUGH THAT INCLUDES THE 15,000 TO 20,000 STUDENTS THAT GO ON HARDSHIP PAYMENTS EACH SUMMER. AND JUST THREE DAYS BEFORE THE ELECTION, NATIONAL ANNOUNCED IT WANTS TO SEE NUMBERS DROP BYA FURTHER 25%, SEEING WORK AS THE PATHWAY OUT OF POVERTY. PROBLEM IS, TWO OUT OF EVERY FIVE KIWI KIDS LMNG IN POVERTY ARE GROWING UP IN HOMES WITH WORKING PARENTS. SO IS A JOB NO LONGER ENOUGH TO KEEP PEOPLE OFF THE BREADLINE? AND IF NOT, WHAT'S TO BE DONE TO STOP THE RISE OF THE WORKING POOR? BETWEEN 130,000 AND 285,000 NZ CHILDREN LIVE IN POVERTY, DEPENDING ON THE MEASURE. BUDGETING SERVICES DARRYL EVANS SAYS IT'S CREEPING INTO THE WORKING CLASS AS WAGES FAIL TO KEEP UP WITH RISING LMNG COSTS. WHEN I CAME TO BUDGETING SERVICES, WHICH IS ABOUT 15, 16 YEARS AGO, PREDOMINANTLY OUR CLIENTS WERE MADE UP FROM BENEFICIARIES, WITH MAYBE 10% WORKING. NOW IT'S AROUND 55% OF THE WORKING. THE NEW TERMINOLOGY IS THE WORKING POOR. AND IT'S FAMILIES WHO ARE VERY OFTEN IN FACTORY JOBS ON MINIMUM WAGE THAT ARE STRUGGLING TO MEET THE DEMANDS OF LIFE, WHICH IS WHY WE'RE RAISING A GENERATION OF CHILDREN THATARE SURVMNG ON TWO-MINUTE NOODLES. THAT'S EXACTLY THE PLIGHT ROSIE FACES. ON $15 AN HOUR FOR 35 HOURS AWEEK, AFTER ALL HER BILLS ARE PAID, SHE HAS JUST $100 TO SPEND ON FOOD. AN OTAGO UNIVERSITY STUDY SUGGESTS A FAMILY OF FOUR SHOULD BE SPENDING AT LEAST $250 A WEEK. I TRY TO BUDGET MEAT, RICE AND THE WEEKLY- LIKE, THE DAILY BASICS, LIKE BREAD, MILK AND BUTTER. IF YOU HAVE EMERGENCY BILLS, LIKE YOUR REGISTRATION OR YOUR WARRANT, THEN YOU HAVE TO COUGH OUT THE MONEY FROM THE FOOD TO PAY FOR THAT. AUCKLAND CITY MISSIONER DIANE ROBERTSON SAYS THERE ARE MANY LIKE ROSIE WHO DO EVERYTHING RIGHT, BUT IT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH. THERE ARE A PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR WHO AREN'T GOOD BUDGETERS, WHO DO WASTE THEIR MONEY, I WHO no GAMBLE, WHO 0o DRINK. I THERE'S A PERCENTAGE OF RICH WHO ARE ALSO IN THOSE CATEGORIES. THERE ARE ALSO A PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR WHO ARE THE BEST BUDGETERS IN THE WORLD. I THEY HAVE TO BE. I WITHOUT HER ACCOMMODATION SUPPLEMENT AND WORKING FOR FAMILIES PAYMENTS, ROSIE'S WAGES DON'T COVER THE BILLS. I MEAN, YES, I'VE GOT THE EXTRA HELP - THAT'S THE FAMILY TAX CREDIT FOR THE THREE THAT ARE IN MY CARE AT THE MOMENT - I so THAT JUST. JUST HELPS us BY. I SALVATION ARMY SOCIAL POLICY ANALYST ALAN JOHNSON SAYS IT'S BENEFITS BYA DIFFERENT NAME. WHAT WE'VE DONE WITH WORKING FOR FAMILIES IS CREATED 700,000 OR 800,000 HOUSEHOLDS I THATARE ALSO BENEFICIARIES. I A HOUSEHOLD OR A FAMILY THAT MOVES FROM A BENEFIT INTO WORK WILL STILL RECEIVE A HUGE TOP-UP OF THEIR INCOME FROM THE GOVERNMENT, AND THEN YOU SAY, 'WELL, YOU'RE BETTER OFF.' YEAH, YOU'RE BETTER OFF NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE OF THE WORK, BUT BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE'VE STRUCTURED THE POLICIES THAT ACTUALLY MAKE A FAMILY- INCENTMSE FAMILIES TO MOVE INTO WORK. I SPEAKING ON CAMPBELL LIVE, I PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY SAID CHILD POVERTY IS SOMETHING HE'S DETERMINED TO ADDRESS THIS TERM. HE ADMITS HE DOESN'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS BUT HINTS THAT THEY'RE LIKELY TO CONTINUE HELPING THE PEOPLE WHO HELP THEMSELVES. WORKING FOR FAMILIES AND WELFARE AND ALL THOSE THINGS ARE TACTICAL ISSUES. THEY'RE ABOUT, OK, YOU PROVIDE SOME INCOME SUPPORT. THEN I THINK THERE IS MORE THE SYSTEMIC CHANGE, AND THAT IS, I SUPPOSE, IN AWAY THE PHILOSOPHICAL DIFFERENCE WHERE WE WOULD SAY THAT PATHWAY INTO WORK IS REALLY IMPORTANT. BUTALAN JOHNSON'S CONCERNED THAT NOT ALL OF THOSE COMING OFF BENEFITS ARE GETTING JOBS. FOLLOWING LAST YEAR'S TIGHTENING UP OF WELFARE PAYMENTS, HE SAYS SOME ARE JUST FALLING OUT OF THE SYSTEM. SOME OF THE EVIDENCE WE'VE LOOKED AT WOULD SUGGEST THE REDUCTION IN BENEFIT NUMBERS ARE PARTLY DUE TO IMPROVING JOB PROSPECTS IN MANY COMMUNITIES BUT PARTLY DUE TO THE MORE STRINGENT RULES IN ACCESS AND ELIGIBILITY FOR BENEFITS. AND I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH ATARGET LIKE 75,000 IS IT BECOMES SOMETHING THEN WHICH BECOMES THE END IN ITSELF - THAT WE NEED TO REDUCE THIS NUMBER SIMPLY BECAUSE WE'VE SAID IT, NOT BECAUSE IT'S A DESIRABLE THING TO DO FOR THE PEOPLE INVOLVED OR BECAUSE THERE'S OPPORTUNITIES, SAY, IN THE LABOUR MARKET FOR THAT TO HAPPEN. AND SO IT'S A BIT DANGEROUS TO PUT TARGETS UP LIKE THAT, BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE'S GOING TO HOLD, SAY, IN TERMS OF JOB MARKETS. # I NEED A DOLLAR, DOLLAR. A DOLLAR IS... # 83,000 JOBS WERE CREATED IN THE YEAR TO JUNE 2014, AND THE GOVERNMENT FORECASTS ANOTHER 150,000 OVER THE NEXT TWO YEARS. THE GOVERNMENTS BANKING ON RAPID JOB GROWTH OUT OF THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS, BUT ATA RATE OF 205 JOBS A DAY, CRITICS ARE HIGHLY SCEPTICAL THEY'LL ACHIEVE IT. BUT USING THESE FIGURES, A JOB CAN BE AS LITTLE AS ONE HOUR A WEEK AND UNPAID, SO WHAT LOOKS GOOD ON PAPER MAY NOT BE QUITE SO HOT IN REALITY. BUSINESS NZ CHIEF EXECUTIVE PHIL O'REILLY HAS NO DOUBT THE JOBS WILL COME. BUT EVEN IF YOU THINK ABOUT SOME OF THE MORE HARD TO- MORE DIFFICULT TO PLACE IN THE WORKFORCE, LIKE SOLO MUMS WHO'VE BEEN OUT OF JOBS FOR A LONG TIME, I THINK WITH THE RIGHT PASTORAL CARE, THE RIGHT INVESTMENT, THE RIGHT ON-BOARDING, I THINK THEY'LL GET A JOB NO PROBLEM. I BUT WILL THEY BE THE RIGHT JOBS? I FINANCE MINISTER BILL ENGLISH DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN CONTROVERSIALLY DESCRIBED GETTING STUCK ON A BENEFIT LONG TERM LIKE CRACK COCAINE. IT'S REALLY HARD TO GET THEM OFF. EVEN IF THEY COME OFF, WE'VE FOUND THEY'RE COMING BACK TO IT. I THAT'S WHY IT'S LIKE AN ADDICTION. I THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE BENEFIT, GETTING PART-TIME WORK, COMING OFF PART-TIME WORK AND THEN ON THE BENEFITAND BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS, AND THAT'S A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT WE'RE SEEING INCREASING NUMBERS EH THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE SECURE EMPLOYMENT. I THINK IT'S VERY LITTLE TALKED ABOUT. IT'S NOT TALKED ABOUT AT ALL, SAYING ABOUT THE SECURITY OF EMPLOYMENT, BUT I THINK WHETHER IT'S PART-TIME OR IT'S FULL-TIME, PEOPLE NEED GUARANTEED HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT. SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE MAKING UNWISE CHOICES ABOUT LEAVING LOW-INCOME JOBS TO GO ON THE BENEFIT, BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY THERE IS MORE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT AVAILABLE TO THEM. AND LMNG WAGE CONVENOR ANNIE NEWMAN SAYS WAGES HAVE TO GO UP. $14.25 IS A POVERTY WAGE, AND WE NEED TO GET PEOPLE THINKING A LI'I'I'LE MORE ASPIRATIONALLY ABOUT WHAT THEY COULD BE PAYING THEIR STAFF. THE LMNG WAGE HAS ONLY COME ABOUT BECAUSE THE MINIMUM WAGE IS INADEQUATE. AND IT'S INADEQUATE BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE CAN'T LIVE OFF IT, THATA LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WORKING HARD - SOMETIMES THREE, FOUR, FIVE JOBS IN A WEEK, SOMETIMES UP TO 7O HOURS AWEEK, AND THEY'RE STILL STRUGGLING TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE FOR THEIR FAMILIES AND TO REALLY ENJOY THE BENEFITS THAT THIS SOCIETY HAS TO OFFER PEOPLE. BUT COULD A RAPID RISE IN THE MINIMUM WAGE STOP PEOPLE GETTING A JOB AND CLIMBING THE LADDER? WHAT YOU WANTARE PEOPLE TO GETA JOB, THE PERSON WHO WALKS UP TO A BOSS WITH A CV, AND SAYS, 'I'VE ACTUALLY WORKED FOR SOMEONE BEFORE.' EVEN IF IT'S A CASUAL JOB OR IF IT'S A TEMPORARY JOB, THAT'S SUBSTANTIALLY MORE VALUABLE TO THEM THAN SAYING, 'I'VE NEVER HAD A JOB.' I MEAN, I TRULY BELIEVE -AND I THINK MOST REASONABLE PEOPLE BELIEVE THIS - THAT IF YOU'RE FIT AND HEALTHY, THEN YOU SHOULD BE WORKING, PROVIDING THE JOBS ARE THERE AND THEY'RE PAYING REAL WAGES. TOO OFTEN PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THE BENEFITAND GOING INTO JOBS WHERE IN SOME INSTANCES THEY'RE WORSE OFF, AND IN SOME INSTANCES THEY'RE MAYBE $1 OR $2 BETTER OFF. UM, I BELIEVE THE WAY OUT OF POVERTY IS ACTUALLY EDUCATION. IT'S GETTING INTO SCHOOLS AND TEACHING KIDS FINANCIAL LITERACY. IT'S TEACHING YOUNG ADULTS TO MAKE BETTER LIFESTYLE CHOICES WITH PERSONAL INCOME, UM, BUT ABSOLUTELY IT'S ABOUT JOB CREATION. ONE OF THE BIG THINGS WE NEED TO DO IS MAKE SURE WE'RE INVESTING IN THE RIGHT SKILLS AND TALENTS SO THAT PEOPLE CAN ON-BOARD INTO A JOB AND THEN MOVE UP THE SKILLS LADDER, IF YOU LIKE, OVER TIME, AND THATS REALLYABOUT CHANGING THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT WELFARE. AT THE MOMENT, GOVERNMENT FAR TOO OFTEN THINKS THAT SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE'S GONE OFF THE DOLE QUEUE. I ACTUALLY, THATS NOT success. I LABOUR MARKET AND THEY BUILD THEIR SUCCESS IS VVHEN THEY REMAIN IN THE I CAPABILITY IN THE LABOUR MARKET. FOR ROSIE, SHE KNOWS SHE'S GOING TO HAVE TO WORK EVEN HARDER IF SHE WANTS TO EARN MORE, I AND SHE HAS A PLAN. I IT'S A FIVE YEAR PLAN. ALL OF THESE I'VE ALREADY ACHIEVED. THESE LIKE ARE GOAL PLANS OF SAVING TO BUYA HOUSE, AND THESE ARE GOALS I WANT TO ACHIEVE, LIKE MAYBE DO MY MASTER'S. AND ARE THESE YOUR CHILDREN HERE? AND THESE ARE GOALS I WANT TO ACHIEVE, LIKE MAYBE DO MY MASTER'S. AND ARE THESE YOUR CHILDREN HERE? AND THESE ARE MY OTHER DREAM ONES - TO HAVE ALL MY KIDS EDUCATED, YOU KNOW, SO WHEN THEY DO GROW UP, THEY'RE ABLE TO ESTABLISH JOBS. I'M PRETTY PROUD THAT I'VE GOT MY EDUCATION BEHIND ME, INDUSTRY AND HOPEFULLY HAVE A BUT I'M WISHING TO GROVV INTO THIS I HIGHER-PAID JOB IN THE FUTURE, BECAUSE I'VE GOT EVERYTHING BEHIND ME. COMING UP - WILLIE JACKSON, FRAN O'SULLIVAN AND JESSICA WILLIAMS DEBATE THE WEEK'S POLITICS, STARTING WITH HOW LABOUR REBUILDS. STAY WITH US. WELCOME BACK. HONE HARAWIRA SPOKE PUBLICLY ON FRIDAY FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE HIS ELECTION LOSS. HE TOOK A SWIPE AT THE PARTY HE DEFECTED FROM IN 2011, BUT HARAWIRAALSO READ OUTA VERY HUMOROUS AND ARGUABLY ASTUTE LE'I'I'ER FROM, WAIT FOR IT, I A RIGHT-WING SUPPORTER. I A FEW WORDS FROM A NATIONAL PARTY VOTER WHO WROTE TO ME JUST TWO DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION. HE SAID... I HOPE THE MEDIA GETS THIS. HE SAID... I HOPE THE MEDIA GETS THIS. READS: 'HONE...' WELL, PROBABLY HONEY, BUT HONE... I 'l HOPE YOU GET To READ THIS. I 'I AM A 57-YEAR-OLD PAKEHA CENTRE-RIGHT VOTER - 'DON'T THROW UP JUST YET - WHO WAS DELIGHTED WITH THE RESULT OF THE ELECTION, WITH ONE EXCEPTION. 'THAT EXCEPTION IS A BIG ONE AND ONE I BELIEVE ALL NZ IS POORER FOR, 'AND THAT IS YOU ARE, FOR THE PRESENT, NO LONGER IN OUR PARLIAMENT. 'I HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS TODAY WITH A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO, LIKE ME, 'HAVE HAD A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF SUCCESS IN LIFE, WHO SUPPORT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT AND WOULD ON THE SURFACE APPEAR TO HAVE LITTLE IN COMMON WITH YOU. 'THE COMMON FEELING IS THAT YOU'RE AN HONOURABLE MAN WITH A STRONG AND DECENT VISION. IPEOPLE:KIAORA.l THIS IS WRITTEN TO MANA. I JUST HAPPEN TO BE THE VOICE WHO SPEAKS FOR MANA. 'WHILE YOU MADE A BAD CALL WITH YOUR PARTNERS IN THIS ELECTION...' VOICE WHO SPEAKS FOR MANA. 'WHILE YOU MADE A BAD CALL WITH YOUR PARTNERS IN THIS ELECTION...' LAUGHTER 'THIS SHOULDN'T DEFINE YOU, AND I AND THE PEOPLE I MIX WITH GENUINELY HOPE THATAFTER A LITTLE TIME OUT, 'YOU WILL REGROUP AND THEN START THE NEXT CAMPAIGN SHORTLY. 'GOOD GOVERNMENT NEEDS STRONG OPPOSITION, LABOUR IS TOO FACTIONAL TO PROVIDE THAT, 'THE GREENS ARE TOO NARROWLY FOCUSED, AND THE RESTARE A BLOODY JOKE.' ILAUGHTEiCHEERINGI DON'T CLAP TOO HARD. HE'S A NATIONAL FELLA. 'I LIKE THE FACT THAT WITH YOU, WHAT ONE SAYS IS WHAT ONE GETS.' PEOPLE! KIA R. 'I LIKE THE FACT THAT WITH YOU, WHAT ONE SAYS IS WHAT ONE GETS.' PEOPLE! KIA R. 'AT TIMES, I WISH YOU WOULD LEARN TO PLAY WITH OTHERS BE'I'l'ER...' LAUGHTER 'AT TIMES, I WISH YOU WOULD LEARN TO PLAY WITH OTHERS BE'I'I'ER...' LAUGHTER '...BUT THAT'S YOU, SO WHAT THE HELL. 'I GUESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT THERE'S A STRONG FEELING OUT HERE THAT NZ NEEDS YOU, 'THAT NOT ONLY MAORI BUT ALL NZERS WILL BE MISSING OUT BY NOT HAVING YOU IN OUR HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. 'I HOPE OUT OF THIS YOU WILL COME BACK STRONGER THAN EVER IN YOUR OWN RIGHT, WITHOUT PARTNERS WITH BAGGAGE THAT YOU DON'T NEED. 'BE YOUR OWN MOVEMENT. GOOD LUCK, AND STAY STRONG.' soon LUCK, AND STAY STRONG.' APPLAUSE. creams SO WAS THAT LETTER ON THE MONEY? LET'S CHECK IN WITH OUR PANEL. AND A WARM WELCOME TO FORMER ALLIANCE MPAND BROADCASTER WILLIE JACKSON, HIS COLLEAGUE, RADIO LIVE POLITICAL EDITOR JESSICA WILLIAMS, AND NZ HERALD COLUMNIST FRAN O'SULLIVAN. WILLIE, HOW WAS THAT FOR A POLITICAL CRITIQUE? IT WAS GOOD. IT WAS A NICE WAY FOR HIM TO GO OUT, BECAUSE HE'S GOING TO BE A BIG LOSS IN PARLIAMENT. I THINK EVEN HIS ENEMIES ADMIRE HIS DETERMINATION AND HIS ADVOCACY. IS THERE AWAY BACK IN FOR HIM, DO YOU THINK, WITH THE MAORI PARTY? POSSIBLY, POSSIBLY. THE REALITY IS THAT MAORIDOM WANT THE FACTIONS TO COME TOGETHER, AND THE OTHER REALITY IS I KNOW THE LABOUR MPS WANT TO- THEY WANT TO SORT OF SAY THAT IT WAS THEIR WONDERFUL PERSONALITIES THAT WON THEM THE SEATS, BUT IT WASN'T. IT WAS THE INABILITY OF MANAAND MAORI TO GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER. AND THEY HAVE TO COME TO AN ACCORD, BECAUSE IF YOU COUNT THE VOTES, IF THERE HADN'T BEEN A MAORI PARTY CANDIDATE IN THE NORTH, HONE WINS THE SEAT. SIMPLE AS THAT. SAME HERE m AUCKLAND, SAME m TARIANA TURIA'S SO LABOUR CAN'T GET COMFORTABLE HERE. THERE HAS TO BE AN ACCORD, AND TE URUROA HAS TO WORK WITH HONE - TWO THINGS. HE HAS TO TAKE THE MINISTERIAL POSITION - MAORI AFFAIRS PORTFOLIO - AND THEY HAVE TO BUILD OUTSIDE OF PARLIAMENT, OR HE'LL BE GOING THE SAME WAY AS THE MANA PARTY. RIGHT, LET'S TALK ABOUT LABOUR. YOU MENTIONED THEM THERE. FRAN, THIS WEEKA BIT OF BLOODLETTING, BIT OF NAME-CALLING. IS IT JUST THAT - IS IT A HEALTHY DEBATE OR IS IT MORE THAN THAT? ARE THEY FALLING APART AT THE SEAMS? BIT OF NAME-CALLING. IS IT JUST THAT - IS IT A HEALTHY DEBATE OR IS IT MORE THAN THAT? I THINK THEY'RE HAVING WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT TO HAVE AFTER YOU'VE HAD A LEADERSHIP WHICH HAS BEEN HUNG TOGETHER WITH A LEADER WHO DOESN'T ENJOY CAUCUS SUPPORT, MADE A FEW MISSTEPS - BIG MISSTEPS - ON ELECTION NIGHT. ITHINK IT'S VERY HEALTHY TO HAVE THE DEBATE. IF ONE THING, THOUGH, I THINK THEY'RE PROBABLY DOING THE LEADERSHIP CONTEST TOO EARLY. I THINK THEY NEED TO WORK OUT WHAT THEY STAND FOR. UM, I WAS QUITE IMPRESSED WITH ANDREW Ll'l'I'LE ON THE PROGRAMME BEFORE. IF HE DOESN'T GET IN, I THINK HE SHOULD RUN FOR LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY OR- SORRY, PRESIDENT OF THE LABOUR PARTY BECAUSE HE HAS THE ABILITY, HE'S BEEN IN CAUCUS, HE HAS THE ABILITY, PERHAPS, TO UNITE OUTSIDE OF... OUTSIDE OF PARLIAMENT, WHICH IS ALSO NEEDED, NOT JUST WITHIN. JESSICA, DO THEY NEED MORE CANDIDATES? AT THE MOMENT, YOU'VE GOT A TWO-MAN RACE WITH CUNLIFFE AND ROBERTSON, AND THAT COULD JUST DEGENERATE INTO PULLING EACH OTHER APART. ABSOLUTELY. YEAH, I THINK A THIRD CANDIDATE IS ALMOST, YOU KNOW- IT SHOULD ALMOST BE MANDATORY HERE. ITALSO MEANS THAT YOU'RE NOT FACED WITH AN EITHER/OR CHOICE BETWEEN TWO CHOICES WHICH, LET'S FACE IT, TO A LOT OF LABOUR MEMBERS MAY NOT BE THAT PALATABLE FOR WHATEVER REASON. YOU HAVE DAVID CUNLIFFE, WHO'S JUST, LIKE IT OR NOT, PRESIDED OVER A SHOCKER OF AN ELECTION RESULT, AND YOU'RE GOT GRANT ROBERTSON, WHO COMES WITH HIS OWN ISSUES - YOU KNOW, HIS REPUTATION OF BEING THE BELTWAY GUY, THE PLOTTING GUY. ATHIRD PERSON WOULD HELP TO OPEN THAT UP, AND IT'D ALSO MAKE IT A BIT MORE INTERESTING, BECAUSE THEN YOU'VE GOT THIS QUESTION OF SECOND PREFERENCES. YOU MIGHT SEE DAVID CUNLIFFE GET BACK IN THAT WAY. WHO KNOWS, BUT IT WOULD JUST BE- I THINK IT WOULD JUST MAKE IT JUST THAT MUCH MORE POSITIVE AND VIBRANT A CONTEST. SO, WILLIE, JESSICA, THERE'S CUNLIFFE AND ROBERTSON. WHAT ABOUT PARKER OR NASH? WELL, NASH I DON'T THINK HAS THE SKILLS, ACTUALLY, YET. HE'S CERTAINLY GOT A BIT OF A- YOU KNOW, HE'S SORT OF POPULAR, AND LIKE JACINDAARDERN, BUT YOU NEED SOMEONE WITH BACKGROUND, SOMEONE WITH EXPERIENCE. PARKER'S VERY GOOD. I WATCHED HIM IN THE DEBATES WITH BILL ENGLISH. I THOUGHT HE HANDLED HIMSELF TREMENDOUSLY WELL. THEY'VE GOT SOME CAPABLE PEOPLE. ANNETTE KING IS GREAT, BUT SHE'S DEEMED TO BE FROM ANOTHER GENERATION. SO IT'S GOING TO BE FASCINATING WHO ROBERTSON PAIRS UP WITH. IF HE'S GOT SOME CLUES HERE, HE WON'T GO WITH JACINDA. HE'LL GO WITH SOMEONE LIKE A LITTLE, WHO'S BEEN MOOTED FOR LEADERSHIP FOR MANY YEARS. SO IS ROBERTSON A POTENTIAL WINNER, DO YOU THINK? OH, WELL, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING POINTS TO ROBERTSON. HE'S DONE THE YARDS. HE'S BEEN THE- PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HIM AS A PLOTTER, BUT HE'S GOT TREMENDOUS SKILLS - ROBERTSON. LET'S NOT WALK AWAY FROM THAT, BUT PEOPLE ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT HIM BEING GAYAND THE WIDER APPEAL, BUT FOR HIM, I THINK NOWS HIS TIME. ABSOLUTELY HE MUST GO FOR IT NOW. I MEAN, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN WHAT THE HETEROSEXUALS CAN DO, AND GOFF AND SHEARER AND CUNLIFFE ALL FAILED. SO EVERYBODY'S GOING, 'YOU KNOW, HE'S GAY. HE'S GAY.' WELL, I DON'T RECKON HE'LL GET ANY LESS THAN 24%. FRAN, YOU DID 'INSIDE THE BOARDROOM'. HOW DID DAVID CUNLIFFE GO WITH THAT? BECAUSE HE'S STILL IN THE HUNT HERE. BOARDROOM'. HOW DID DAVID CUNLIFFE GO WITH THAT? BECAUSE HE'S STILL IN THE HUNT HERE. YEAH, WELL, ACTUALLY, HE RATED REALLY BADLY, AND ONE OF THE THINGS IN THE POINT OF COMPARISONS BETWEEN JOHN KEY AND HIMSELF FROM THE CEOS - HE DIDN'T RATE WELL; HE RATED REALLY REALLY POORLY. I MEAN, IT WAS ONLYABOUT 2.45% AVERAGE OUT OF FIVE COMPARED TO 4.3- 4.03 FOR JOHN KEY. BUT THE INTERESTING THINGS WERE ON LEADERSHIPAND ON TRUSTWORTHINESS, AND ON THOSE HE HAD EXCEPTIONALLY LOW RATINGS. THEY UNDERSTAND DAVID CUNLIFFE. HE'S DONE A LOT OF BOARDROOM PRESENTATIONS, BUT HE'S STILL SEEN AS OFFERING TWO FACES - THE FACE WITHIN THE BOARDROOM AND THE FACE OUTSIDE - I AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT IT ls. I AND WHEN WE CAME TO LOOK AT, FOR INSTANCE, THE BIG QUESTION - WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF LABOUR LOSES - HE WAS RATED ABOUT NUMBER EIGHT IN THOSE THAT THEY THOUGHT SHOULD TAKE IT FORWARD TO THE NEXT PHASE. JESSICA, IF HE WERE TO COME OUT AS THE WINNER ON THIS, HOW IS THAT GOING TO WORK WHEN THE PUBLIC KNOW THAT HE HAS A CAUCUS THAT DOESN'T REALLY SUPPORT HIM? IF HE STAYS ON, HOW CAN PEOPLE TRUST THAT THEY'RE A COHESIVE UNIT, TRUST ENOUGH TO VOTE FOR THEM? WELL, THIS IS THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL, ISN'T IT? LOOK, LAST LEADERSHIP CONTEST - BIG POSITIVE VIBE, THOUSANDS MORE MEMBERS, THEY SAY, AND A REALLY GOOD FEELING ABOUT IT, SO IT DIDN'T SEEM TO MATTER SO MUCH THAT PEOPLE WITHIN CAUCUS DIDN'T REALLY WANT DAVID CUNLIFFE TO BE THERE, BUT THIS TIME IT FEELS DIFFERENT, DOESN'T IT? AND I THINK IF DAVID CUNLIFFE WINS THIS THAT HE NEEDS TO DO AS MUCH SOUL-SEARCHING AS THE PARTY DOES. IT'S REALLY INTERESTING WHAT FRAN SAYS, THAT IN THE BOARDROOM, PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS. I TALKED TO DAVID CUNLIFFE A LOT. I'VE PROBABLY TWICE SEEN THROUGH THE LAYERS OF 'DAVID CUNLIFFE' I To ACTUAL DAVID CUNLIFFE. I HE'S ACTUALLY AT HIS CORE, I THINK, A DECENT MAN WHO THINKS THE RIGHT THOUGHTS. BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY COME ACROSS. THOUGHTS. BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY COME ACROSS. BUT IT DOESN'T COME ACROSS. ALL RIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE, SORRY. WE'LL TAKE A BREAK NOW AND BE BACK WITH MORE IN A MOMENT. YOU'RE BACK WITH THE NATION AND TODAY'S PANEL - FRAN O'SULLIVAN, JESSICA WILLIAMS AND WILLIE JACKSON. I WE WERE TALKING ABOUT DAVID CUNLIFFE I AND HOW HE MAYBE DOESN'T RESONATE WITH THE PUBLIC AND EVEN WITH HIS OWN CAUCUS. I BUT WHAT ABOUT HELEN CLARK? I THERE'S A PRECEDENT THERE FOR DAVID CUNLIFFE, ISN'T THERE, BECAUSE EVERYONE SAYS,' 'OH, IT'S THE DEATH OF THE LABOUR PARTY IF CUNLIFFE GETS BACK IN.' AND HE MIGHT GET BACK IN, BECAUSE HE'S GOT SOME STRONG SUPPORT OUT THERE, EVEN IF THREE-QUARTERS OF THE CAUCUS CAN'T STAND HIM. BECAUSE THAT WAS THE SAME WITH HELEN CLARK. THEY USED TO CALL HER MRS 'ONE OR TWO PERCENT', WHATEVER IT WAS. AND BACK IN '96 - '95, '96 - THEY WERE JUST POLLING TERRIBLY, AND IT'S WELL KNOWN THAT SENIOR MPS WENT INTO HER OFFICE AND TOLD HER TO MOVE ON OUT - PEOPLE LIKE MICHAEL CULLEN AND OTHERS. EVERYONE THOUGHT CULLEN WOULD TAKE OVER AT THE TIME. FRAN'S NODDING AT THAT. SO YOU THINK HE CAN TURN IT ROUND? WELL, THERE'S PRECEDENT THERE, ISN'T THERE, FRAN? WELL, THERE'S SOME SORT OF PRECEDENT THERE, BUT SHE CHALLENGED THEM TO BASICALLY ROLL HER PUBLICLY, AND THEY DIDN'T DO THAT. BECAUSE I REMEMBER SITTING NEXT TO HER ON A PLANE ONE DAY, AND SHE SAID, 'YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN A MAN WANTS YOUR JOB.' SHE SAID, 'YOU JUST BUTFLE IN.' THE DIFFERENCE BEING THIS HAS SPEWED OUT INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN, HASN'T IT? YEAH. OK, LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS TRIO THAT THE NATIONAL PARTY'S BROUGHT IN WITH THEIR CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLYAGREEMENTS. IS KEY PURCHASING AN INSURANCE POLICY HERE FOR 2017, GIVEN THAT HE DOESN'T NEED THESE GUYS NOW. WELL, ABSOLUTELY HE DOESN'T. I THINK HE lS- TO BE HONEST, IN SOME ASPECTS OF IT HE WAS PURCHASING AN INSURANCE POLICY FOR THE SPECIAL VOTES BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS THAT POSSIBILITY THAT THAT GOLDEN 61-60 MIGHT BECOME A 60-61. BUT, LOOK, I MEAN, HE MADE-AND THE OTHER THING, I THINK, HE MADE PROMISES TO THESE GUYS, YOU KNOW, IN THE FORM OF THESE CUPS OF TEA. AND THEN TO HAVE THEM COME IN AND TRY TO TREAT THEM WITH DISDAIN, AS YOU SAY, WOULD PROBABLY HAVE SOURED THINGS A BIT. I MEAN, LET'S FACE IT - THESE ARE TWO PARTIES THAT ARE STRUGGLING WITH THEIR VERY EXISTENCE ANYWAY. SO, YEAH, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. HE'S BEING VERY CAREFUL TO KEEP THEM ON SIDE, KNOWING IF HE IN SOME WAYS LOOKS LIKE HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY CONFIDENCE IN THEM, THEY'LL DIE ON THE VINE. SO DOES THE ACT PARTY HAVE A FUTURE, FRAN? I MEAN, THEIR ONE MP DOING ALL THE JOBS FOR THEM? YEAH, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO THINK IF IT'S RIGHT OF CENTRE IF IT'S ACT OR WHETHER lT'LL BE THE CONSERVATIVES NEXT TIME ROUND. ACTS FUNDERS ARE GETTING MORE ELDERLY, IF YOU LIKE. AND ALSO YOU'RE SEEING SOME FUNDERS GETTING BEHIND CONSERVATIVE. THERE MAY WELL BE SOME SORT OF DEAL THERE NEXT TIME ROUND. I WOULD SAY THE OTHER INTERESTING THING IS LOOKING AT MAORI PARTY, AND PICKING UP ON COMMENTS EARLIER BY WILLIE RELATING TO HONE HARAWIRA, I THINK SOME ASTUTE MOVES MIGHT BE TO SEE WHAT THE PRIME MINISTER COULD DO TO HELP FACILITATE THAT. IF I WAS SITTING IN HIS SEAT, I WOULD SAY, 'WELL, WHY NOT USE HONE AS A SPECIALADVISER COMING IN ON THE POVERTY ISSUE 'AND WHY NOT MAKE PITA SHARPLES A CULTURAL AMBASSADOR OFFSHORE?' I MEAN, IF YOU'RE LOOKING TO STITCH UP A CONSTITUENCY IN MAORIDOM, WHICH IS POTENTIALLYA BIG VOTING BLOCK NEXT TIME ROUND, PUT SOMETHING THERE. THE THING IS, AND KEY'S VERY CLEVER IN TERMS OF WORKING WITH THESE THREE PARTIES, BECAUSE HE CAN SEE THE POTENTIAL IN MAORI, AND WHAT'S FRAN'S SUGGESTING lSN'TA BAD SUGGESTION. HONE AND THEM NEED TO GET OVER THEIR CARRY-ON WITH NATIONAL. THEY NEED TO GET THAT OUT OF THEIR HEADS. THE REALITY IS THAT MAORI HAVE BEEN BETRAYED BY BOTH PARTIES. THE MAORI PARTY CAME ABOUT BECAUSE OF BETRAYAL FROM LABOUR. THE GREENS ARE LEARNING THAT NOW. THEY DON'T WANT TO STAY IN OPPOSITION FOREVER AND A DAY. AND SO WE CAN'T JUST SAY IT'S ALL BEHIND US. LABOUR ARE VERY GOOD WHEN THEY'RE NOT IN GOVERNMENT. WHEN THEY'RE IN GOVERNMENT, THEY AIN'T THAT MUCH DIFFERENT FROM NATIONAL IN TERMS OF WHERE THEY GO IN TERMS OF THEIR POLICIES AND HOW THEY TREAT MAORI. SO THERE'S A BIG OPPORTUNITY STILL FOR MANA BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY OUT THERE, AND, OF COURSE, THEY POLLED- THEY ONLY LOST SEATS BYA THOUSAND VOTES IN THERE. AND AN ACCORD WILL DO IT. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO COME TOGETHER AS A PARTY. JUST HAVE AN ACCORD. IT'S INTERESTING, THOUGH, ISN'T IT, TO THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE EXISTENCE OF THESE PARTIES. YOU COULD SEE THATA MAORI-MANA TYPE ALLIANCE WITH A PARTY THAT HAD REAL SORT OF KAUPAPA WITH THE VOTERS - I AWESOME FUTURE, YOU KNOW? I BUT THEN CONTRAST IT WITH ACT AND UNITEDFUTURE, WHICH ARE PARTIES THAT EXIST, FIRSTLY AROUND AN IDEOLOGY, WHICH IS EXTREMELY UNFASHIONABLE, I WOULD SAY, AND UNITEDFUTURE, WHICH IS A PARTY AROUND A QUIFF, ISN'T IT? IT'S A PARTYAROUND ONE GUY. HE'S A GOOD MAN, THOUGH. I QUITE LIKE PETE. PERFECT PLACE TO LEAVE IT ON THE QUIFF, I THINK. THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO OUR PANELLIST. NOW A QUICK LOOK AT WHAT'S LIKELY TO HIT THE HEADLINES NEXT WEEK. JOHN KEY SEALED THE DEALS WITH UNITEDFUTURE AND ACT. I THE MAORI PARTY IS EXPECTED TODAY. I THE NEW CABINET WILL BE ANNOUNCED TOMORROW. AND ON WEDNESDAY, THE EXECUTIVE WILL BE SWORN IN BY THE GOVERNOR GENERAL. AND WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT THOSE CABINET CHANGES WITH PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY NEXT WEEK ON THE NATION. BUT THAT'S IT FOR US TODAY. THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR WEEKEND WITH US. DO HAVE A GOOD WEEK. IGAFFIONSBYABLEI I WWWAHECQNZ I ICAPTIONSWEREIMDEPOSSIBLE WITHFIMDINGFROIINZONAIR. LooPvnueo-rrmmmq