NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. THIS MORNING - SOWING THE SEEDS OF WAR. NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. IF ANYONE BELIEVES THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RISK OF A FORM OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM HERE, NOTE: CAPTIONS COMPUTER GENERATED USING OCR FROM DVB-SUBPICTURES. CA. I THEN THEY'RE ACTUALLY DELUDED. I AND THAT SECURITY CHALLENGE IS THE SIREN SONG OF RADICALISATION. NOW WE'RE ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL, WILL WE HAVE TO STEP UP ON IRAQ? WE CROSS TO FOREIGN MINISTER MURRAY MCCULLY IN NEW YORK. WHAT GOOD IS OUR NEW UN SEAT, AND COULD WE COME TO REGRET IT? PLUS, THE ISLAMIC STATE. WHAT'S AMERICA ASKING FOR, AND COULD WE BE COMMITTING TO ANOTHER DECADE-LONG CONFLICT? THEN I SIT DOWN WITH JULIA GILLARD TO TALK ABOUT BEHEADINGS, THE RISE OF CHINA, THE FALL OF KEVIN RUDD, AND WHETHER SEXISM IS RIFE IN AUSTRALIA. THE FORMER AUSSIE PRIME MINISTER'S FIRST NZ TV INTERVIEW. AND LATER - ONE FLAG TO FLY OVER US, BUT WHICH ONE WILL IT BE? WE LOOK ATALTERNATIVE FLAGS HERE IN THE STUDIO AND DEBATE THE PROS AND CONS WITH RSA PRESIDENT BJ CLARK I AND BUSINESS LEADER IAN TAYLOR. I AND ON OUR PANEL- MAI CHEN, JON STEPHENSON AND TRISH SHERSON. THANKS FOR JOINING US. THERE'S LOTS TO TALK ABOUT TODAY, AND SO PLEASE GET IN TOUCH. JUST TEXT 3330 FOR 50C, EMAIL THENATION@TV3.CO.NZ OR ON TWITTER OR FACEBOOK @THENATIONTV3 WELL, THE VOTES ARE IN AND NZ'S WON THE PRIZE SEAT ON THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL. THE BODY THAT, BY ITS OWN WORDS, IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAINTENANCE OF GLOBAL PEACE AND SECURITY. BUT THIS IS THE VERY COUNCIL THAT MURRAY MCCULLY LAST MONTH SAID WAS IMPOTENT ON BIG ISSUES LIKE THE RISE OF THE ISLAMIC STATE. SO WHAT DIFFERENCE CAN WE MAKE AND DOES OUR APPEARANCE ATA MEETING OF MILITARY CHIEFS IN WASHINGTON DC THIS PAST WEEK MEAN THAT WE'RE BEING DRAWN INTO A NEW IRAQ WAR? I SPOKE TO THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER, MURRAY MCCULLY EARLIER FROM NEW YORK CITY. GOOD MORNING, MR MCCULLY, AND CONGRATULATIONS. GOOD MORNING, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH. AND CONGRATULATIONS. OH, TWO THINGS. I GUESS. FIRSTLY, YOU CAN'T WIN AT THE UNITED NATIONS UNLESS YOUR COUNTRY'S GOT A PRETTY GOOD REPUTATION, AND NZ HAS A GREAT INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION BUILT UP OVER MANY YEARS OF PARTICIPATING IN INTERNATIONAL ACTMTIES. SECONDLY, OF COURSE, YOU'VE GOTTA RUN A GOOD CAMPAIGN. AND WE HAD A GREAT TEAM HERE IN NEW YORK AND ELSEWHERE AND RAN A GOOD CAMPAIGN. DID TURKEY ACTUALLY LOSE IT IN A SENSE THAT- THE WAY IT'S DEALING WITH THE SITUATION IN SYRIA MIGHT HAVE EXPERIENCED SOME BACKLASH IN THAT RESPECT? OH, LOOK, THERE ARE GOING TO BE LOTS OF DEBATES ABOUT THIS. I GUESS THE ANALYSIS WILL SHOW THAT SOME OF THE TROUBLES IN THEIR COUNTRY AND THEIR REGION HAVEN'T HELPED THEM. THE FACT THAT THEY WERE ON THE COUNCIL BACK IN 2009-10 AND ARE GOING AGAIN SO EARLY. AND THERE WERE SOME COUNTRIES THAT THOUGHT THAT WAS JUST A BIT TOO SOON TO BE OCCUPYING THE SEATAGAIN. SO, IN YOUR RECENT SPEECH AT THE UN, YOU WERE QUITE CRITICAL OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL. YOU POINTED TO PARALYSIS OVER SYRIA AND HANDLING THE SITUATION WITH THE UKRAINE. SO, REALISTICALLY, HOW DO YOU HOPE TO CHANGE THAT? I THINK THE SORT OF SENTIMENTS I WAS EXPRESSING WERE VERY MUCH IN LINE WITH THE MOOD OF MANY COUNTRIES. I THINKA LOT OF COUNTRIES VOTED FOR US IDENTIFYING WITH THOSE CRITICISMS AND HOPING THAT WE WOULD AT LEAST MAKE AN HONEST ATTEMPT TO IMPROVE THINGS. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ONE SORT OF SILVER BULLET HERE. I THINK THERE ARE LOTS OF SMALL THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE TO IMPROVE THE WAY THE SECURITY COUNCIL WORKS. ONE IS SIMPLY TO BE BETTER LISTENERS. THATS ONE OF THE THINGS WE TALKED ABOUTA LOT IN OUR CAMPAIGN - THAT COUNTRIES THAT HAVE THEIR OWN SITUATION OR THE NEIGHBOURS BEFORE THE COUNCIL DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HEARD, LISTENED TO BY SOME OF THE COUNCIL MEMBERS, AND THATS THE FIRST THING THAT WE WANT TO TRY AND ACHIEVE. IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING- YOU'VE TALKED SPECIFICALLY ABOUT VETO, HAVEN'T YOU, MR MCCULLY? AND THERE'S BEEN CONCERNS EXPRESSED ABOUT THE PERMANENT FIVE HAVING THE RIGHT TO VETO. I SO WHAT CAN YOU DO IN THAT REGARD? I YEAH, WELL, THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION, BECAUSE IN RECENT MONTHS, THE FRENCH, WHO OF COURSE ARE ONE OF THE PERMANENT FIVE MEMBERS, HAVE SAID THEY WOULD VOLUNTARILY RELINQUISH SOME OF THE OPPORTUNITIES TO USE THE VETO. THEY'VE TALKED ABOUT PARTICULARLY WHEN THERE'S A THREAT OF MASS ATROCITIES, WHICH HAS BEEN THE FIRST STEP FORWARD BYA PERMANENT MEMBER TO MOVE DOWN THIS PATH OF VOLUNTARY RELINQUISHMENT, AND THAT'S SOMETHING NZ'S BEEN TALKING ABOUT. I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT FOR A FEW YEARS. I MET WITH THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR HERE TO TALK ABOUT I HOW WE MIGHT TAKE THAT FORWARD. I SO, WHAT'S IN THIS FOR US? NOW THAT WE'RE ON THIS COUNCIL, WHAT DO WE GET OUT OF IT? WELL, WE GET TWO THINGS OUT OF IT. WE GETA CHANCE TO SITAT THE BIG TABLE, AND HAVING CRITICISED THE WAY THE SECURITY COUNCIL'S WORKED, WE HAVE A CHANCE TO SHOW THAT WE CAN WORK HARD TO TRY AND IMPROVE THINGS. IF YOU WANT TO ASK THAT QUESTION MORE SELFISHLY, I GUESS IT MEANS WE'RE SITTING AT THE BIG TABLE WITH THE BIG GUYS WHO ARE LISTENING TO US AND TALKING TO US MUCH MORE OFTEN THAN THEY NORMALLY WOULD BE, WHICH IS A CHANCE TO ADVANCE VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INTERESTS YOU HAVE, INCLUDING YOUR TRADE AND ECONOMIC INTERESTS. SO IT'S TWO YEARS WHERE NZ REALLY IS GOING TO BE LISTENED TO A LOT MORE THAN WE NORMALLY WOULD BE. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT ADVANCING TRADE AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES, THOUGH, THE FACT ls THAT THERE wll.l. BE THINGS THAT WE HAVE To TAKE SIDES EYE IN FACT, SOME OF THE MOST CONTENTIOUS ISSUES THAT WE ARE FACING IN THE WORLD AT THE MOMENT. WE WILL HAVE TO TAKE SIDES. MIGHT WE COME TO REGRET BEING ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL? OH, LOOK, UM, THIS IS THE SORT OF QUESTION THAT'S OFTEN ASKED ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIPS IN THE REGION AS WELL, WHERE PEOPLE PRETEND THAT WE HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN OUR GOOD FRIENDS THE US AND OUR GOOD FRIENDS CHINA. AND I DON'T THINK WE DO HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICES. WE JUST NEED TO BE HONEST AND BEHAVE WITH INTEGRITY AND SHOW SOME GOOD PRINCIPLES I ABOUT THE WAY m WHICH WE- I BUT YOU HAVE TO VOTE IN THIS CASE, DON'T YOU? YOU HAVE TO CASTA VOTE. SO YOUR CHOICE IS ON THE TABLE. YOU'RE FORCED TO MAKE A CHOICE. AND- AND- THAT'S RIGHT. AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CHOOSE TO ANNOY SOME OF OUR FRIENDS SOMETIMES, I AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SIGNED UP FOR. I AND FRANKLY, THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. HOW YOU DO THAT IS OF COURSE IMPORTANT. RESPECT, EVEN THOUGH VVE DISAGREE, I BEHAVING VVITH COURTESY AND SHOWING I S AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS PROCESS, AND THATS PART OF THE NZ BRAND AS WELL, I THINK, THAT SERVES US WELL TODAY HERE. YOU DON'T THINK THAT THAT COULD POTENTIALLY HAVE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR US, I ANNOYING OUR FRIENDS, AS YOU PUT IT? I OH, LOOK, IAM SURE THERE'LL BE DAYS WHEN WE WILLANNOY OUR FRIENDS, AND I AM SURE THAT THERE'LL BE COMMENTATORS IN NZ WHO'LL SAY THAT WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE BOTHERED GOING ON TO THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL. I THINK THE ISSUES THAT GO BEFORE THE COUNCIL ARE IMPORTANT AND WE SHOULD DO OUR BEST TO TRY AND IMPROVE THE WAY IN WHICH THEY'RE DEALT WITH. OK, WELL, SEEING AS YOU ARE SITTING AT THE BIG TABLE NOW, DOES THAT MEAN THAT WE'RE COMMITTED TO SOME KIND OF MILITARY ACTION OR MILITARY COMMITMENT IN IRAQ AS A CONSEQUENCE? NO, THERE'S NO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THESE TWO THINGS, AND CAN I TELL YOU THAT NO ONE HERE HAS PRESSED ME BEFORE THE VOTE TODAY FOR AN ANSWER ON WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IN RELATION TO IRAQ. WE'VE GIVEN SOME HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IN IRAQ, AND WE'LL DO SOME MORE OF THAT, BUT THE PRIME MINISTER'S MADE IT CLEAR THAT WE'VE GOT TO AS A NEW GOVERNMENTA PROCESS OF CONSIDERATION UNDERWAY TO LOOK AT WHAT OUR RESPONSE SHOULD BE BASED ON OUR OWN INTERESTS AND OUR OWN PERCEPTION OF RISK TO NZ, AND NO ONE HERE HAS TRIED TO FORCE US TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION EARLY SO THEY CAN TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT IN THE WAY- IN SAYING THAT, WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU? IN SAYING THAT THEY'RE NOT PRESSING YOU, WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU ABOUT WHAT KIND OF ACTION IS REQUIRED; HOW TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM? OH, LOOK, LET'S BE CLEAR. THERE ARE PLENTY OF COUNTRIES WHO WANT TO SEE NZ AND OTHER COUNTRIES SIGN UP TO DO MORE IN RELATION TO THE CHALLENGES IN IRAQ AND ALSO IN RELATION TO EBOLA IN AFRICA, ACTUALLY. AND WE ARE LOOKING TO DO MORE IN EACH OF THOSE AREAS, BUT PEOPLE WERE GOOD ENOUGH, COUNTRIES WERE GOOD ENOUGH TO VOTE FOR US TODAY BASED ON WHAT THEY THOUGHT WE COULD DO ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL, NOT ON THE RESOURCES THEY THOUGHT WE COULD BRING TO ANY ONE PROBLEM OR CONFLICT. OK, WELL, YOU SAY COUNTRIES ARE ASKING. WHAT IS AMERICA ASKING FOR? WELL, THE ANSWER TO THAT IS NOTHING SPECIFIC. THEY KNOW WHAT- ARE THEY GMNG YOU AN INDICATION, THOUGH, MR MCCULLY? ARE THEY GMNG YOU SOME-? I NO, THEY'RE NOT. I I NOT EVEN BROAD-BRUSH-? I THEY'VE SHOWN GREAT RESPECT- NO, THEY'VE SHOWN GREAT RESPECT FOR THE FACT THAT NZ'S GOTA NEW GOVERNMENT. OUR PRIME MINISTER HAS ACTUALLY BEEN VERY TRANSPARENT AND VERY PUBLIC ABOUT THE PROCESS WE'RE GOING TO USE FOR DEALING WITH WHAT NZ'S INTERESTS SHOULD DEMAND WE DO, AND AMERICAAND OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE SHOWN RESPECT FOR THE DECISION-MAKING PROCESS THAT'S UNDERWAY. SO, THERE ARE SO MANY COUNTRIES THAT ARE INVOLVED IN THIS. WHAT IS IT? 60 IN THE COALITION? ARE WE REALLY NOT PART OF THIS ALREADY? YES, WE ARE PART OF THIS ALREADY, AND IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S BEING SAID BY THE US AND OTHER COUNTRIES, THEY'RE NAMING US AS PART OF THE COALITION BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN FROM THE BEGINNING A CONTRIBUTOR OF HUMANITARIAN AID, AND WE'RE GOING TO DO MORE OF THAT. SO, THIS MEETING THAT HAPPENED OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON, WHAT WAS THATALLABOUT, THEN? WELL, YOU'RE STEPPING OUTSIDE MY PORTFOLIO INTEREST THERE. THAT WAS A DEFENCE MEETING, AND SO I CAN'T DESCRIBE THE NATURE OF IT TO YOU, AND I WASN'T IN NZ- THE AMERICAN DEFENSE FORCE HAS DESCRIBED IT AS 'TO COORDINATE STRATEGIES FOR THE FIGHT AGAINST ISLAMIC STATE', SO THAT SORT OF SOUNDS LIKE WE'RE COMMITTED TO MORE THAN HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE. WELL, I CAN TELL YOU THE COMMITMENT TO HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IS ONE THAT I SIGNED OFF ON AND WILL DO MORE OF ITAS WE CAN DO IT. ON THE DEFENCE MATFERS, I DON'T SIGN OFF ON THOSE. OBVIOUSLY, IAM PARTY TO THE DISCUSSIONS, BUT IF YOU WANT TO DEAL WITH THE DETAILS OF PRECISE MEETINGS, YOU'LL NEED TO GO TO THE DEFENCE PEOPLE. THE DEFENCE MINISTER CAN TELL YOU THE DETAILS AROUND THAT. DO YOU THINK WE WOULD EVEN BE CONSIDERED GETTING INVOLVED IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS, THE ONE IN IRAQ AND SYRIA, IF THERE HADN'T BEEN BEHEADINGS OF WESTERNERS? (SIGHS) I THINK THAT'S A VERY DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER. I THINK PEOPLE HAVE WATCHED SOME OF THESE IMAGES ON TELEVISION AND IT HAS STIRRED PUBLIC SENTIMENT, AND I KNOW IN NZ, THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST IN WHAT THE SORT OF SECURITY THREAT IS TO US. AND THERE'S BEEN DEBATE ON THAT WHILE I'VE BEEN AWAY. COS I FIND IT INTERESTING. YOU SEE, SAUDI ARABIA IN THE LAST MONTH, THEY BEHEADED EIGHT PEOPLE AS PUNISHMENT FOR NON-LETHAL CRIMES LIKE SORCERY AND ADULTERY, BUT WE'RE NOT CONSIDERING GOING INTO AWAR WITH THEM. IN FACT, THEY'VE BEEN INVITED INTO THIS COALITION. YEAH, LOOK, LET'S JUST ACCEPT THAT WE'VE GOTA NEW GOVERNMENT IN PLACE IN NZ THAT IS GOING THROUGH A PROCESS OF ASKING ITS MINISTRIES TO GIVE IT THE BEST ADVICE THAT CAN BE GIVEN ABOUT THE THREAT THAT WE SUBJECT TO OURSELVES, THE SORT OF STEPS WE CAN TAKE TO DEAL WITH THATAT HOME, AND THE SORT OF THINGS WE SHOULD LOOK AT DOING AS PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL EFFORT. BUT THE THING IS, MR MCCULLY- MR MCCULLY, THIS IS A QUESTION OF PRINCIPLE, ISN'T IT? CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE TWO SITUATIONS? IAM NOT GOING TO TRY AND DESCRIBE THE DIFFERENCE FOR YOU. WHAT IAM GOING TO DO IS SAY THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THE SORT OF STEPS THAT NZ SHOULD TAKE, BOTH TO PROTECT ITS OWN INTERESTS AT HOME AND WHAT IS PERCEIVES TO BE ITS INTERNATIONAL INTERESTS, WE GO THROUGH A CAREFULAND CONSIDERED PROCESS; WE GET GOOD ADVICE FROM OFFICIALS; WE TALK TO OTHER COUNTRIES; AND THE PRIME MINISTER, I THINK, HAS BEEN AS OPEN AS YOU COULD EXPECT HIM TO BE. WELL, PRESIDENT OBAMA SAYS THAT HE WANT TO 'DEFEAT AND DEGRADE ISLAMIC STATE'. THOSE ARE HIS WORDS. SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT LOOKS LIKE IN REALITY? WELL, I THINK PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS DESCRIBED FAIRLY CLEARLY THE SORT OF STEPS THAT HIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO TAKE, AND THE US AUTHORITIES NEED TO RESPOND TO ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. OUR PRIME MINISTER'S BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE PROCESS THAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH, AND IT'S NOTA COMPLETED PROCESS YET. SO I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE THAT WE SHOULD BE THOROUGH, CAREFUL AND MODERATE ABOUT THIS. AND THAT'S WHAT THE GOVERNMENTS TRYING TO DO. BUT WHAT DOES DEFEAT LOOK LIKE AGAINST AN ORGANISATION LIKE THIS? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU'VE WON? WELL, IAM NOT SURE THAT OUR PRIME MINISTER OR I HAVE USED THOSE WORDS, AND IF OTHERS HAVE, OBVIOUSLY, THE QUESTION CAN BETTER BE DIRECTED TO THEM. WE ARE GOING THROUGH, AS I SAY, A PROCESS OF LOOKING AT WHAT WE THINK WE SHOULD DO AS A COUNTRY, AND WE'RE GOING TO BE ANSWERING THOSE QUESTIONS FOR NZERS OVER THE COMING WEEKS. WELL, IF WE DO CHOOSE TO INVOLVE OURSELVES IN THIS, A SENIOR IRAQI CABINET MINISTER HAS SAID THAT THIS COULD BE A FIVE- TO 10-YEAR PROJECT. HOW LONG ARE WE PREPARED TO COMMIT OURSELVES TO THIS? I WELL, IAGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT, I AND THAT'S ONE OF THE FACTORS THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO TAKE VERY CAREFULLY INTO ACCOUNT, I I CAN ASSURE You. I ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING, MR MCCULLY, AND CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN. I THANK YOU. I SO AN INTERESTING ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THERE THAT THIS COULD BE A VERY LONG FIGHT WE'LL DEBATE THAT WITH OUR PANEL - JON STEPHENSON, MAI CHEN AND TRISH SHERSON - LATER. <i>L</i> BUT HOW ABOUT THIS AS A NEW NZ FLAG? <i>I</i> IT'S A DICK FRIZZELL DESIGN, AND WE'LL LOOK AT SOME OTHERS SHORTLY. BUT FIRST -AUSTRALIA'S FIRST FEMALE PRIME MINISTER, JULIA GILLARD, ON THE RISE OF CHINA AND TOUGHING IT OUT AGAINST TERRORISTS AND MISOGYNISTS. NOW WE'RE ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL, WILL WE HAVE TO STEP UP ON IRAQ? FOR HER POISONOUS FEUD WITH KEVIN RUDD AND THAT SPEECH - HER ADDRESS IN PARLIAMENT THATATTACKED THE SEXISM SHE WAS SUBJECTED TO AS AUSTRALINS FIRST FEMALE PRIME MINISTER - I BECAME AYOUTUBE HIT. I I WILL NOT BE LECTURED ABOUT SEXISM AND MISOGYNY BY THIS MAN. I WILL MISS GILLARD WAS TOPPLED BYARCH RIVAL KEVIN RUDD IN JUNE LAST YEAR AND RETIRED FROM POLITICS AT THE ELECTION THREE MONTHS LATER. SHE'S NOW WRITTEN ABOUT THE HIGHS AND LOWS OF HER POLITICAL CAREER IN A MEMOIR CALLED MY STORY. I SAT DOWN WITH JULIA GILLARD IN BRISBANE THIS WEEK AND BEGAN BY ASKING HER IF AUSTRALIA'S DECISION TO GO TO WAR WITH ISLAMIC STATE WAS JUSTIFIED OR SIMPLY SCAREMONGERING. NO, I THINK THAT THE EVIDENCE IS SUFFICIENT FOR US TO DEPLOY. I MEAN, WE'VE ALL SEEN ON OUR TV SCREENS SOME OF THE BRUTAL IMAGES, SOME OF THE HORRIBLE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING TO PEOPLE, SO THAT, I THINK, WOULD MOVE EVEN THE HARDEST OF HEARTS. AT THE TIME THAT WE DISCUSSED AND DEBATED OUR DEPLOYMENT INTO AFGHANISTAN, OF COURSE THE COMPARISON WAS IRAQ AND THAT DEPLOYMENT THEN. I WAS NOT IN FAVOUR OF DEPLOYING THEN, AND I THINK THE EVIDENCE IS NOW IN THAT THAT DEPLOYMENT TO IRAQ DID NOT GIVE THE KIND OF SECURITY AND STABILITY THAT ONE WOULD HOPE FOR AND THAT WE ARE REAPING SOME OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT LACK OF SECURITY, STABILITY AND PLURALITY NO H. WOULD YOU NOT HAVE ANY CONCERNS, THOUGH, THAT IT MAY LAY AUSTRALIA OPEN TO A POTENTIAL ATTACK ON YOUR SOIL OR EVEN PRESENT AN OPPORTUNITY FOR, SAY, JIHADISTS TO RECRUIT PEOPLE BY INVOLVING YOURSELVES? I THINK WHETHER OR NOT WE DEPLOYED, WE WOULD BE FACING A CONSIDERABLE SECURITY CHALLENGE, AND THAT SECURITY CHALLENGE IS THE SIREN SONG OF RADICALISATION AND WHAT THEY MAY MOTIVATE PEOPLE TO DO. IT IS THE RETURN OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE VOLUNTARILY PARTICIPATED IN THE FIGHT AND BECOME HARDENED AND MILITANT TERRORISTS WHO WOULD COME BACK AND WOULD POTENTIALLY SEEK TO ACT THAT OUT IN THE CONTEXT OF OUR SOCIETY. SO YOU DON'T MINIMISE THOSE THREATS TO ZERO BY NOT DEPLOYING. THEY ARE THERE, AND THEY'VE GOT TO BE SUCCESSFULLY MANAGED. I WANNA TALK TO YOU ABOUT ANOTHER AREA OF SECURITY. AUSTRALIA IS OBVIOUSLY INVOLVED IN THE FIVE EYES ALLIANCE, AS IS NZ, AND THAT'S PRESUMABLY ABOUT KEEPING AUSTRALIA SAFE TOO. SO, DID THAT MEAN DURING YOUR TIME AS PRIME MINISTER THAT YOU WERE AT ANY POINT SPYING ON CITIZENS OR ALLIES? I'M GOING TO DISAPPOINT YOU AND GIVE THE STOCK-STANDARD AND ONLY PROPER RESPONSE TO A QUESTION LIKE THAT, WHICH IS, AS PRIME MINISTER, I WOULDN'T HAVE COMMENTED ON INTELLIGENCE MATTERS, AND AS A FORMER PRIME MINISTER, I'M NOT GOING TO COMMENT ON INTELLIGENCE MATTERS EITHER. YOU KNOW, YOU ARE IN FIVE EYES WITH NZ. YOU'RE ALSO IN THERE WITH AMERICA. SO, HOW DO COUNTRIES LIKE OURS BALANCE THOSE TENSIONS AND RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN, SAY, A CLOSENESS TO CHINAAND A CLOSENESS TO THE UNITED STATES, I WHICH AUSTRALIA AND NZ BOTH HAVE? I YES, WE BOTH DO, AND WE'VE GOTA LIVELY DOMESTIC DEBATE AND POLICY DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THIS CAN BE MANAGED, AND I WAS ACUTELY AWARE OF THAT AS PRIME MINISTER, THAT THERE WAS A STREAM IN OUR DOMESTIC DEBATE THAT SAID THIS IS A ZERO-SUM GAME. IF YOU GET CLOSER TO THE UNITED STATES, YOU'RE GOING TO PUT SOME DAMAGE INTO YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINAAND VICE VERSA. I NEVER BELIEVED THAT. I DON'T BELIEVE IT HEB AND I THINK DURING MY PERIOD AS PRIME MINISTER, I DEMONSTRATED THAT THEORY IS WRONG. WE TOOK A STEP FORWARD IN OUR ALLIANCE WITH THE US - MARINES TRAINING IN THE NORTHERN TERRITORY - WHILSTAT THE SAME TIME SECURING WITH CHINA NEW DIPLOMATIC ARCHITECTURE, PUTTING US IN THE FRONT ROW AS ONE OF THE FEW NATIONS ON EARTH THAT'S GOT A STANDING COMMITMENT TO AN ANNUAL LEADERS-LEVEL MEETING WITH CHINAAND SUPPORTING MINISTERIAL MEETINGS. SO IT'S POSSIBLE TO GROWAND IMPROVE BOTH RELATIONSHIPS AT THE SAME TIME. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF COMMENTARY ABOUT CHINAAND WHETHER IT IS A MILITARY THREAT, WHETHER IT'S AN EMERGING THREAT. WHAT DO YOU SEE IT AS? DO YOU SEE IT AS AN EMERGING THREAT? WHAT I SEE IS A NATION THAT IS ECONOMICALLY RISING, HAULING PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY STILL, CREATING A MIDDLE CLASS IN THE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS. IT ALONG VVITH THE OTHER COUNTRIES IN OUR REGION THAT ARE CHANGING AND GROVVI NG ARE GOING TO CREATE THE BIGGEST MIDDLE CLASS THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN. THAT GIVES OUR NATION AND YOURS HUGE ADVANTAGES. IT'S UNSURPRISING THAT GREAT ECONOMIC WEIGHT BRINGS WITH IT GREAT STRATEGIC WEIGHT, WHICH BRINGS WITH IT AN ASPIRATION FOR GREATER MILITARY SOPHISTICATION. I DON'T THINK THAT THAT IN AND OF ITSELF SHOULD BE SURPRISING OR SOMETHING THAT CAUSES FEAR. BUT WE DO HAVE A SET OF ISSUES ABOUT TRANSPARENCY AS CHINA'S MILITARY GROWS. IN SAYING ALL OF THAT, THOUGH, DURING YOUR TIME AS PRIME MINISTER, YOU OBVIOUSLY CARRIED ON KEVIN RUDD'S MOVES TO NEW SUBMARINES AND OTHER MILITARY HARDWARE. SO, IF CHINA IS NOT NECESSARILYA THREAT, WHAT IS THE THREAT? WHY DO YOU NEED THOSE THINGS? WELL, WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR, YOU KNOW, DEFENCE ACQUISITIONS POLICY IS YOU LOOK AT YOUR WHOLE WORLD AND WHAT YOU MAY BE CALLED UPON TO DO. SO YES, OF COURSE, YOU'VE GOT TO CALIBRATE RISKS. YOU DO MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT THE WORLD WILL LOOK LIKE IF IT WENT BADLY. SO YOU COVER YOUR BACK? YOU COVER YOUR BACK JUST IN CASE? WELL, BUT- BUT YOU DON'T LOSE SIGHT OF WHAT IS THE OVERWHELMING CONCLUSION AND THE ABSOLUTE OVERWHELMING PROBABILITY, AND IN MY VIEW THAT IS VERY VERY CLEARLY THE CONTINUED PEACEFUL RISE OF CHINA. I WANNA BRING YOU A BIT CLOSER TO HOME NOW. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME TENSIONS THAT WERE ON YOUR HOME TURF. SO, RUDD VS GILLARD, AND IT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED VARIOUSLY BY ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE AS A HOLY WAR, A SOAP OPERA AND BY ONE PERSON AS ARMAGEDDON. SO, THERE'S ALWAYS TENSION IN POLITICS, BUT I'M WONDERING WHY DO YOU THINK THAT GOT TO SUCH A NASTY SITUATION? LOOK, I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE THAT ABOUT IT. I WOULDN'T HAVE ADOPTED ANY OF THOSE WAYS OF SUMMARISING IT. HOW I SAW IT IS HOW I'VE WRITTEN IT IN THE BOOK, WHICH IS KEVIN ISA MAN OF TREMENDOUS STRENGTHS, YOU KNOW, TRULY FORMIDABLE STRENGTHS, A GREAT CAMPAIGNER. LOOK AT WHAT HE DID AT BRINGING US INTO GOVERNMENT IN 2007. A FANTASTIC LEADER WHEN WE FACED THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS, AIDED BY WAYNE SWAN AS TREASURER. BUT THERE'S A BUT, ISN'T THERE? GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS, AIDED BY WAYNE SWAN AS TREASURER. BUT THERE'S A BUT, ISN'T THERE? YES, BUT HUMAN BEINGS ARE COMPLEX. KEVIN A MAN OF REMARKABLE STRENGTHS. IF YOU WANTED TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT OUR WORLD AND PUBLIC POLICY CONSIDERATIONS IN IT, YOU COULDN'T GETA BETTER INTERLOCUTOR THAN KEVIN RUDD. BUT, YES, ALSO A HUMAN BEING WITH SOME FLAWS THAT ULTIMATELY SHOWED IN HIS LEADERSHIP AS HE GOT MORE PARALYSED AND MISERABLE IN THE MOMENTAND IN ADVERSE POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES. IN SAYING THAT, THOUGH, YOU PAINT A PICTURE IN THE BOOK OF A DISLOYAL MAN, A MAN WHO IS CHARACTERISED AS BEING A MEDDLER AND IN SOME CASES A BORDERLINE BULLY WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT STAFF BEING LEFT IN TEARS, AND ALSO AS A SABOTEUR, SOMEONE WHO EXT ORTED A PORTFOLIO OUT OF YOU, IN ESSENCE. AND I THINK YOU DO USE THE WORD EXT ORTION. SO HOW DID HE-? HOW COULD THE PUBLIC NOT SEE THAT? AND HOW DOES HE EVENTUALLY GET ENOUGH SUPPORT TO HAVE ANOTHER CRACK AT IT? WELL, YOU KNOW, POLITICS ISA BUSINESS WHERE PEOPLE CAN FEEL A LOT OF PRESSURE. IT BREEDS A LOT OF PRESSURE, AND AS WE GOT CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE 2013 ELECTION, CLEARLY MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES WERE VERY WORRIED ABOUT HOW THE PARTY WAS GOING TO FARE AT THAT ELECTION. I HAD GOVERNED WITH A LOT SWIRLING AROUND ME, WHICH HAD BEEN NET POLITICAL NEGATIVES. MINORITY GOVERNMENT MADE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE TO CHARACTERISE ME AS DOING THINGS TO SAVE MY POLITICAL SKIN RATHER THAN IN THE INTERESTS OF THE NATION. THE DESTABILISATION WITHIN MY OWN PARTY HAD NOT HELPED. WE'D STEPPED UP TO SOME VERY BIG DECISIONS LIKE PUTFINGA PRICE ON CARBON; THIS CURIOUS ISSUE OF GENDER WAS IN THE MIX TOO. SO I THINK THAT PRESSURE SHOWED ON A NUMBER OF MY COLLEAGUES, AND THAT EXPLAINS THE RETURN TO KEVIN IN THE LEAD-UP TO THE 2013 ELECTION. YOU THINK WHEN A LEADER GETS TOPPLED, THATS TIME TO BOW OUT ALTOGETHER. YOU SAY IN YOUR BOOK 'IT'S ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT THING TO DO 'IF YOU WANT YOUR POLITICAL PARTY TO PROSPER'. SO EXIT STAGE LEFT, LIKE YOU DID. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO GO? WELL, I WAS MAKINGACONCLUSION IN THE CONTEXT OF AUSTRALIAN POLITICS, SO I'M NOT HERE TO PREACH WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES. BUT IN AUSTRALIAN POLITICS, FOR ME, HAVING SEEN WHAT HAPPENED WHEN I TOOK THE LEADERSHIP AND KEVIN IMMEDIATELY STARTING A CAMPAIGN OF LEAKING AND WHAT THAT DID TO OUR CHANCES DURING THE 2010 CAMPAIGN, I DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS RIGHT. AND I'M CLEAR IN THE BOOK: I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS RIGHT. SO THE LAST THING I WAS GOING TO DO WHEN I FACED THE LOSS OF THE PRIME MINISTERSHIP WAS TO DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD DISTRACT FROM MY POLITICAL PARTY'S ABILITY TO SUCCESSFULLY CAMPAIGN AT THE NEXT ELECTION. BUT DO YOU THINK SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN LEADER CAN SIT ON THE BACKBENCHES AND MAKE A CONTRIBUTION, IN SOME WAY? IS THAT POSSIBLE OR WILL THERE ALWAYS BE THAT DISCONTENT AND THE WANT TO BE BACK IN THAT ROLE AGAIN? LOOK, ITHINK IT'S POSSIBLE, DEPENDING ON A FEW THINGS - THE NATURE OF THE INDMDUAL. ALEXANDER DOWNER IS AN EXAMPLE IN POINT, BRIEFLYA LEADER OF THE LIBERAL PARTY IN OPPOSITION, SETTLED IN VERY SUCCESSFULLY AS A LONG-TERM FOREIGN MINISTER AND WAS NOT EVER TALKED ABOUT IN DISPATCHES AS CREATING LEADERSHIP TENSION WITH JOHN HOWARD. HE WAS ONE OF JOHN HOWARD'S STRONGEST SUPPORTERS. SO IT'S POSSIBLE DEPENDING ON THE INDMDUAL. WHEN YOU TOOK OVER FROM KEVIN RUDD, YOU WERE PORTRAYED AS BEING A TREACHEROUS BACKSTABBER, BASICALLY. I'M WONDERING, DO YOU THINK THAT PICTURE WOULD HAVE BEEN PAINTED HAD YOU BEEN A MALE MAKING THAT MOVE? I THINK IN PART, YES, AND MAYBE A BIT NO. I THINK THAT THERE WAS SOME OF THAT IMAGERY ABOUT ME TAKING OVER THE LEADERSHIP, WHICH WAS USED TO KNIT INTO SOME OF THE WORST CULTURAL STEREOTYPES ABOUT WOMEN. OUR CULTURAL STEREOTYPES ABOUT WOMEN STILL AREN'T VERY INCLUSIVE OF WOMEN OF AMBITION. I THINK IT'S EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO CONCLUDE THATA WOMAN WHO TAKES A LEADERSHIP POSITION IS PRETTY HARD EDGE, PRETTY HARDBOILED. SO I THINK THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF THAT. BUT I THINK THERE WERE ELEMENTS BEYOND THAT, AND HAD I BEEN A MAN AND HAD KEVIN CONDUCTED HIMSELF EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, THATA NUMBER OF THE SAME THINGS WOULD HAVE FLOWED. BECAUSE THE FORMER AUSTRALIAN GOVERNOR-GENERAL, ALSO A WOMAN, HAS SAID RECENTLY THATAS THE FIRST FEMALE PRIME MINISTER, YOU WERE SUBJECTED TO 'SEXISM, CRUELTYAND OVERT ABUSE'. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WAS? WELL, I THINK STILL THINK THAT THAT'S ABOUT WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP AND OUR IMAGE, AND I DON'T THINK THIS IS A PURELY AUSTRALIAN THING. I CAN LOOK AROUND THE WORLD. I KNOW NZ'S GOING TO GIVE ITSELF A BIG TICK FORA PROUD TRACK RECORD WITH HELEN CLARK AND WITH OTHER FEMALE LEADERS, SO I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT IF YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD, WHEN HILLARY CLINTON WAS CONTESTING IN THE PRIMARIES, I THINK THAT THERE WERE A NUMBER OF WAYS IN WHICH SHE WAS REPORTED, AND- BUT WOULD YOU ACCEPT IT'S PRETTY BAD IN AUSTRALIA? I MEAN, RIGHT NOW IN THE MEDIA, YOU'VE GOT THE CASE OF A WOMAN WORKING FOR THE WALLABIES WHO WAS ALLEGEDLY TORMENTED AND HARASSED ALMOST. SO, WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT MAYBE THERE IS A STRONGER ELEMENT OF THIS IN THE AUSTRALIAN CULTURE? NO, I WOULDN'T. I THINK THIS WORK OF- YOU KNOW, WE LIVE IN AWONDERFUL COUNTRY; YOU LIVE IN AWONDERFUL COUNTRY. THE US, THE UK, YOU KNOW, RIGHT AROUND THE WORLD, THERE ARE SO MANY GREAT PLACES WHERE WOMEN HAVE EXPERIENCED SO MUCH CHANGE AND EMPOWERMENT, GREATER LIFE CHOICES OVER THE LAST 20, 3O YEARS, AND WE SHOULD CELEBRATE THAT. BUT FOR MANY OF THOSE COUNTRIES, THERE IS STILL THIS UNFINISHED BUSINESS ABOUT WOMEN AND LEADERSHIP AND TRUE EQUALITY, AND GENDER STEREOTYPES, OFTEN VERY HARSH STEREOTYPES PLAYING OUT AROUND WOMEN. WHAT WAS THE WORST OF THAT FOR YOU, DO YOU THINK? OH, LOOK, I THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE THING IS IT'S CUMULATIVE. OBVIOUSLY THE 'DITCH THE WITCH' MOMENT, YOU KNOW, ATA CARBON-PRICING RALLY WAS A BAD MOMENT. IT WASN'T THE ONLY BAD MOMENT, BUT IT WAS ONE. BUT IT'S THE CUMULATIVE, YOU KNOW, FOCUS, GENDERED ABUSE, APPEARANCE, CRITICISMS BEING MADE AND HOVV THAT ALL ADDS TOGETHER AND HOVV IT ALSO TAKES OXYGEN AND DISTRACTS FROM THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO. DO YOU WANNA BE REMEMBERED AS THE 27TH PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA OR THE FIRST WOMAN? OH, I WANT TO BE REMEMBERED AS THE 27TH PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA, BUT IF I COULD MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO BETTER RECEPTION OF WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP, I'D BE HAPPYABOUT THAT. I MEAN, I SAID VERY DELIBERATELY, IN MY LAST SPEECH AS PRIME MINISTER, GENDER DOESN'T EXPLAIN EVERYTHING ABOUT MY PRIME MINISTERSHIP. IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN NOTHING. THERE ARE PLENTY OF SHADES OF GREY. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. WE REALLYAPPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. WE REALLYAPPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. STILL TO COME ON THE NATION - WE'LL DELVE INTO SEXISM AND BEHEADINGS WITH OUR PANEL. BUT FIRST - JOHN KEY'S UNFURLED THE DATES FOR A TWO-STEP VOTE ON THE NATIONAL FLAG. BUT WILLA NEW DESIGN REALLY FLY? WE'LL DEBATE THAT WITH RSA PRESIDENT BJ CLARK AND TECH ENTREPRENEUR IAN TAYLOR AFTER THE BREAK. NOW WE'RE ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL, WILL WE HAVE TO STEP UP ON IRAQ? WELCOME BACK. JOHN KEY WANTS A NEW FLAG IN ATWO-PART REFERENDUM NEXT YEAR AND IN 2016 TO CHOOSE FIRSTA PREFERRED ALTERNATIVE AND THEN PIT IT AGAINST OUR EXISTING ENSIGN. PASSIONS RUN HIGH WHEN IT COMES TO THE FLAG, AND THIS MORNING WE'VE GOT A FEW OPTIONS FROM AN EXHIBITION OF 5O FLAGS THAT RECENTLY RAN ATA LOVELY DEPOT ART SPACE IN DEVONPORT. THEY'RE FROM SOME ol= NZ'S LEADING ARTISTS, AND WE'LL LOOK AT THEM HEY] BUT JOINING US TO DEBATE THE FLAG RSA PRESIDENT BARRY CLARK AND TECH INNOVATOR IAN TAYLOR. <i>L</i> GOOD MORNING TO YOU BOTH. <i>I</i> <i>I</i> GOOD MORNING. <i>I</i> IF I CAN COME TO YOU FIRST, MR CLARK, WHAT DOES THE FLAG MEAN TO THE RSA? I THINK THE FIRST THING IS THAT THE POSITION OF THE NATIONAL EXECUTIVE AND THE SIGNIFICANT MAJORITY OF THOSE IN THE RSA IS THAT WE RETAIN THE CURRENT FLAG. IT'S THE FLAG THAT OUR SERVICEMEN HAVE SERVED UNDER. IT'S THE FLAG THAT OUR SERVICEMEN HAVE BEEN BURIED. WHEN THEIR COFFIN IS LAID, IT'S COVERED WITH THE NZ FLAG. IT REPRESENTS OUR HISTORY, AND WE'RE PROUD OF OUR HISTORY, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT CHANGED. SO, IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF A FLAG? WHAT ROLE DOES IT PLAY? IT IDENTIFIES YOU. WHEREVER YOU Go, WHEREVER OUR SERVICEPEOPLE GO, IT IDENTIFIES WHO THEYARE. AND I THINK THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF A FLAG OF ANY COUNTRY. DOES IT SAY SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT WE ARE, THOUGH, BEYOND JUST IMMEDIATELY IDENTIFYING US? I THINK THE ELEMENTS OF THE FLAG DO IDENTIFY WHERE WE'VE COME FROM, AND I THINK, AS I SAY- WE STAND FOR THE FLAG. AT NIGHT THE FLAG IS LOWERED. WE REMEMBER THOSE THAT HAVE GONE PAST, AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE RETAIN THE HISTORY. DOES IT CONCERN YOU AT ALL THAT THAT IDENTITY MIGHT TO BE TOO STRONGLY TIED TO BRITAIN I AND NOT To WHAT WE ARE NOW? I NOTATALL. WHY SHOULD WE BE WORRIED ABOUT WHERE WE'VE COME FROM? WE HAVE COME FROM BRITAIN. THE STARS DO REPRESENT THE SOUTHERN CROSS. THE BLUE REPRESENTS THE SEA THAT WE'RE STILL SURROUNDED BY, SO I DO NOT SEE WHY WE SHOULD BE AFRAID OF THAT. IAN TAYLOR, YOU'VE BEEN IN THE ARMY, SO WHAT DO YOU THINKA FLAG IS FOR? WELL, LET ME HASTEN TO ADD THAT YES I WAS. I WAS IN THE LAST MILITARY CALL-UP, SO BEING A PART-TIME SOLDIER FOR THREE YEARS REALLY DOES NOT QUALIFY ME FOR THE RSA. BUT I AGREE WITH A LOT OF THOSE THINGS. I THINK- I THINK- I WAS BORN IN 1950, NOT VERY LONG AFTER THE WAR FINISHED, SO IN THE LITTLE VILLAGE I WAS BROUGHT UP IN, BACK IN THE 19508, EVERYBODY KNEW THE NAMES ON THE CENOTAPH. SO IAGREE. IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE NEW FLAG MUST REMEMBER THAT. YOU DO BELIEVE, THOUGH, THAT THERE IS A CASE FOR CHANGE, DO YOU NOT? WHAT IS THAT CASE? SO THE CASE IS I THINK IT HAS TO BE RELEVANT. ONE OF MY REASONS - IF WE- ONE OF THE THINGS I DO NOT LIKE ABOUT THIS DEBATE IS THAT IT SEEMS TO FALL INTO AN ARGUMENT BETWEEN AYOUNGER GENERATION AND OLD SOLDIERS LOOKING BACK AT THE PAST. WHAT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER IS THAT THOSE SOLDIERS REPRESENT TEENAGERS AND YOUNG NZ MEN AND WOMEN WHO WENTAWAYAND DIED. I MEAN, THERE'LL BE PARENTS OUT THERE WHO ARE JUST THANKFUL THAT OUR CHILDREN DID NOT HAVE TO DO THAT. SO IT'S REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT, AND IT IS NOTAN INTERGENERATIONAL FIGHT. SO WHY DO YOU THINK-? INTERGENERATIONAL FIGHT. SO WHY DO YOU THINK-? BUT IT HAS TO BE RELEVANT. WHY DO YOU THINK IT NEEDS TO CHANGE? WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE ONE WE'VE GOT? WELL, YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED. AND A LOT OF THINGS I THINK WE NEED TO HOLD ON TO, AND IF I COULD RUN THROUGH THOSE? THE REASON FOR THE CHANGE IS THAT I HAVE HAD THE PRMLEGE NOW FOR THE LAST 1O TO 15 YEARS OF TRAVELLING THE WORLD, AND IT'S REALLY INTERESTING. WE WALK... WE DO GOLF TOURNAMENTS ALL AROUND THE WORLD. OUR TEAM WALKS TO THE FAIRWAYS WITH THE FLAG, AND THE FLAG WE CARRY IS THE BLACK FLAG WITH THE SILVER FERN. AND WE NEVER HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHERE WE'RE FROM. ONE OF THE MOST MOVING EVENTS WE EVER DID WAS THE ONE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE SEPTEMBER 11. WE WALKED THE FAIRWAY OF THE FIRST AMERICAN TOURNAMENT WE DID WITH THE AMERICAN FLAG AND THE SILVER FERN. AND EVERYWHERE WE WENT, PEOPLE SAID, 'THANK YOU, KIWI.' IT WAS REALLY POWERFUL AND REALLY EMOTIONAL. I BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. I I'M NOT ADVOCATING THE BLACK FLAG AND THE SILVER FERN. I THINK WE DO HAVE TO KEEP OUR TIES, BUT FOR A DIFFERENT REASON. BJ, CAN WE NOT RECOGNISE OUR HISTORY AND HAVE SOMETHING NEW ON OUR FLAG? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY WE SHOULD CHANGE. THE HISTORY IS THE HISTORY. THIS IS THE COUNTRY'S FLAG. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ALSO CONCERNS ME IS THAT WE DON'T HAVE AN OVERWHELMING SUPPORT OUT THERE, FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN, FOR A REFERENDUM FOR THE CHANGE OF A FLAG. AND THIS REFERENDUM IS GOING TO, IN FACT, I TAKE TWO REFERENDUMS AT GREAT COST. I AND THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE SET UP IS... YOU KNOW, YOU COULD LOOK AT, SAY, $19 MILLION JUST FOR TWO REFERENDUMS. SURELY, THAT MONEY COULD BE USED FOR SOMETHING MORE IMPORTANT, MORE PRESSING FOR THE COUNTRY. BUT DON'T YOU THINK THAT WILL GIVE YOU A BENCHMARK, AN ACTUAL NUMBER, A LINE IN THE SAND? AND DO PEOPLE WANT THE ONE WE'VE GOT OR DO THEY WANT TO MOVE ON? THEN WE WOULD SUPPORT PUBLIC DEBATE. WE WOULD SUPPORTA REFERENDUM, AND THE FIRST REFERENDUM SHOULD BE, 'DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE?' AND THEN THE OTHER THING IS, WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS REFERENDUM WILL BE HELD IN 2015 WHEN WE'RE HOLDING SIGNIFICANT REMEMBRANCES FOR THOSE WHO WENT TO GALLIPOLI, FOR THE SOMME, PASSCHENDAELE - ALL THESE PLACES WHERE OUR SERVICEMEN WENT UNDER THAT FLAG. FOR THE SOMME, PASSCHENDAELE - NO, I WOULDN'T SAY OFFENSIVE. I DON'T WANT TO SAY OFFENSIVE. I WOULD SAY UNFORTUNATE. WE WOULD SUPPORTA REFERENDUM IF THE PUBLIC WANTS IT, BUT LET'S LOOK AT WHEN WE HOLD IT AND LET'S LOOK AT WHY THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO HAVE THAT NOW. IS THAT THE MOST PRESSING THING ON THE TABLE OF GOVERNMENT? ARE YOU HAPPY THAT, AS IT SEEMS, A COMMITTEE OF POLITICIANS WILL CHOOSE IF WE DECIDE TO GO FOR CHANGE, WILL CHOOSE THE FLAGS THAT PEOPLE VOTE ON? IS THAT THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IAGREE WITH BJ. I MEAN, THIS ISA DECISION FOR THE PEOPLE TO MAKE, SO I THINK THE FIRST THING IS THE CASE AND THE ARGUMENT FOR CHANGE HAS TO BE PUTAND PUT COHERENTLY. AT THE MOMENT, THIS COUNTRY IS A MISHMASH OF REPRESENTATION. WE'VE GOT THE SILVER FERN, WE'VE GOT AN AIRLINE TRAVELLING WITH THE BLACK PLANES WITH THE SILVER FERN. I MEAN, GETTING OFF THE PLANE LAST NIGHT, SOMEBODY FROM THE NZ ICE HOCKEY TEAM STANDS UP - BLACK BAG, SILVER FERN. IT'S HOW WE ARE RECOGNISED AROUND THE WORLD. AND I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. IT IS AN IMPORTANT DEBATE. IT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO ADDRESS COS IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. IT'S ABOUT THE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO NEED TO IDENTIFY WITH THE FLAG. THE TAXI DRIVER THAT BROUGHT ME HERE THIS MORNING, HARVEY, HAS COME FROM MUMBAI IN INDIA ABOUT EIGHT YEARS AGO. AND I EXPLAINED TO HIM WHY I WAS COMING TO AUCKLAND FOR THIS INTERVIEW. AND HE SAID, 'WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE FLAG? I'M NOWA NZ CITIZEN. THATS MY FLAG. I LIKE IT.' HOW WILL WE REPRESENT ALL THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE THAT WE HAVE HERE IN NZ NOW - THE CHINESE, THE INDIANS, THE PACIFIC ISLANDERS, THE PAKEHA, THE MAORI - IN ONE FLAG? WE CAN'T. SO WE HAVE A FLAG THAT PEOPLE HAVE COME TO NZ- BUT DO YOU THINK THE UNION JACK REPRESENTS THAT COLLECTION OF PEOPLE? BUT IT'S THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY THAT WE HAVE BECOME. ALL RIGHT. IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PRESENTING AN IMAGE THAT REPRESENTS US- HUMOUR ME. LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN PRESENTED ALREADY. I I THINK, ON THE VERY FAR LEFT HERE, I WE'VE GOT THIS BLACK AND WHITE FLAG. MICHAEL SMYTHE. DOES THAT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHO WE ARE? IS THAT A FLAG THAT YOU COULD VOTE FOR? NO, BECAUSE I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AND AGAIN I AGREE WITH IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THERE IS A RELEVANCE TO THE PAST. AND YOU ASKED ABOUT THE UNION JACK. THE UNION JACK- THE REPRESENTATION OF THE UNION JACK IN OUR FLAG IS REALLY IMPORTANT, NOT BECAUSE IT'S WHERE WE CAME FROM; MORE IMPORTANTLY, BECAUSE IT'S THE BASIS OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI. THE TANGATA WHENUA SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH QUEEN VICTORIA, SO THAT NEEDS TO BE REPRESENTED. IT'S NOT COLONIALISM; IT'S THAT TREATY. WHAT DOES IT DO TO THE TREATY? WELL, WHEN YOU SAY THAT- IN FRONT OF YOU, GENTLEMEN, YOU'VE GOT THE SECOND FLAG HERE, WHICH IS AN OTIS FRIZZELL DESIGN, WHICH IS APPARENTLY REPRESENTING AOTEAROA, I THE LAND OF THE LONG WHITE CLOUD. I IT HAS ELEMENTS OF MAORI CULTURE IN IT AND RETAINS THE STARS FROM THE SOUTHERN CROSS. IS THAT GETTING CLOSER? WHAT DO YOU THINK OF ALL THESE ALTERNATIVES, BJ, AS WELL? AS I SAY, BECAUSE I SUPPORT THE CURRENT FLAG- AS WELL? AS I SAY, BECAUSE I SUPPORT THE CURRENT FLAG- YOU CAN'T SEE PAST THAT? I CAN'T SUPPORT THESE. BUT IN SAYING THAT, I STILL GO BACK TO THE FACT THAT IF WE MUST HAVE A DEBATE, AND IF THE PEOPLE WANT CHANGE, WE WOULD SUPPORT THAT CHANGE. BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN YET THE EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT THEY WANT THE CHANGE. I DON'T SEE WHY WE'RE LOOKING AT HAVING TWO REFERENDUMS WHEN WE DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND WHETHER THEY WANT TO CHANGE. I CAN UNDERSTAND THE REASON FOR THE CONFUSION OUT THERE. IT'S WHY WE NEED TO DISCUSS THE REASON FOR THE CHANGE. COS WHAT HAPPENS- THE PUBLIC ARE FACED WITH ALL OF THESE ALTERNATIVES. 'I HATE THAT. I DON'T LIKE THIS. 'I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY. SO LET'S STICK WITH THE OLD.' THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ABOUT THE FLAG THAT WILL REPRESENT THEM. FOR ME, THE CLOSEST I'VE SEEN IS THE ONE RIGHT ON FRONT OF US. WELL, THE ONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF US, WHICH ISA KYLE LOCKWOOD DESIGN, THIS IS THE ONE THAT PRIME MINISTER HAS SORT OF GIVEN A SLIGHT NOD TO. I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT HIS REASONS WERE. SO, IF I COULD EXPLAIN MY REASONS- AND I'VE ONLY JUST SEEN IT. IT HOLDS ON TO THE HISTORY; IT REMEMBERS THE SOLDIERS THAT DIED. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T GO ON HAVING OUR FLAG DETERMINED BY THE WARS WE'VE FOUGHT IN. BUT IT REMEMBERS THAT; IT BRINGS THE SILVER FERN, WHICH IS REALLY HOW NZ IS RECOGNISED. BJ, I JUST WANT TO POINT THAT ONE OUT TO YOU. IT DOES HAVE A SILVER FERN ON IT, BUT IT STILL HAS THE SOUTHERN CROSS STARS, IT STILL HAS THE COLOURS OF OUR FLAG. I COMPROMISE POSITION, PERHAPS? I AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF THE PUBLIC WISH TO GO FOR A NEW FLAG, WE WILL SUPPORT THAT, BUT WE ARE VERY SOLID IN OUR STANCE THAT WE WISH TO RETAIN THE CURRENT FLAG. WELL, BEFORE WE GO OUT, BJ, WE ALSO ARE DISPLAYING THE CURRENT NZ FLAG. WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT US? FROM YOUR HEART, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT US? IT'S THE FLAG THAT I JOINED THE ARMY ON. IT'S THE FLAG THAT, WHENEVER I'VE GONE OVERSEAS, IT'S FLOWN WHEREVER I'VE BEEN UNDER THE NZ ARMY. A NEW FLAG ISN'T GOING TO FEED THE POOR. IT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE OUR ARMY MORE FEARSOME. IT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE BUSINESS MORE SUCCESSFUL. THERE ARE TIMES THAT THE KORU, THE SILVER FERN, ETC, ARE RELEVANT. I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM VVITH A SPORTS TEAM HAVING A SILVER FERN EMBLAZONED ON THEIR UNIFORM. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THAT'S THE FLAG THAT WE HAVE. ARE WE GONNA CHANGE THE FLAG AGAIN IN ANOTHER HUNDRED YEARS? THATS WHY IT'S IMPORTANT IT'S NOTA COMPROMISE. THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT DEBATE, AND IT SHOULD NOT- I THINK- IF I JUST MIGHT FINISH. THE REASON FOR HOLDING ON TO THE FLAG FROM THE RSA'S POINT OF VIEW WAS THOSE YOUNG NZERS WHO DIED IN OTHER PEOPLE'S WARS, BUT THEY DIED OVERSEAS. THE FUTURE IS ABOUT THE SAME YOUNG PEOPLE, THE ONES WHO ARE LMNG TODAY, TO GIVE THEM SOMETHING. IT'S THEIR CALL. DOES THAT FLAG REPRESENT THE NZ THEY KNOW OR IS IT THE ONE THAT THEY ARE LMNG IN AND MOVING FORWARDS IN? DEBATE. IF YOU VVANT TO SEE THESE CLEAR ll"s GONNA SPARK A LIVELY 1 FLAGS AND OTHERS FOR YOURSELF, THEY WILL BE ON DISPLAY UP NORTH IN RAWENE IN MID-NOVEMBER. NOW IT'S TIME FOR TWEET WEEK, OUR PICK OF THE BEST TWEETS FROM THE PAST SEVEN DAYS. THE NATIONAL TERROR LEVELS WERE LOWERED FROM LOW TO VERY LOW 'n-us IE5! LEVELS OF SCEPTICISM, ON THE OTHER, HAND WERE THROUGH THE ROOF. MEANWHILE, THE JOHN KEY TERROR LEVEL IS APPARENTLY AT COMFORTABLE. DAVID CUNLIFFE QUIT THE LABOUR LEADERSHIP RACE, SAYING HE STANDS BEHIND ANDREW LITTLE. BUT SHOULD LITTLE BE LEAVING HIS BACK EXPOSED? ESPECIALLY AFTER HE LEARNED THIS WEEK IT'S NOT EVEN SAFE TO TURN YOUR BACK ON A BUDDY. JUST AHEAD ON THE NATION - OUR PANEL, JON STEPHENSON, MAI CHEN AND TRISH SHERSON, DISSECTS THE WEEK IN POLITICS. BACK SOON. NOW WE'RE ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL, WILL WE HAVE TO STEP UP ON IRAQ? FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT JON STEPHENSON, WHO'S COVERED CONFLICTS FROM AFGHANISTAN TO GAZA. RENOWNED CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER MAI CHEN AND FORMER ACT STAFFER TURNED PR CONSULTANT TRISH SHERSON. <i>L</i> GOOD MORNING TO YOU ALL. <i>I</i> IALL:GOODIIORNING.I TRISH, IF I CAN COME TO YOU FIRST, THE SECURITY COUNCIL - WE'RE ON IT NOW. IS IT A GOOD THING OR BAD THING FOR NZ? I THINK IT'S A REALLY GOOD THING FOR NZ. I THINK AS A COUNTRY WE HAVE ALWAYS STEPPED UP INTERNATIONALLY AND TAKEN A BIG SHARE OF RESPONSIBILITY. WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, WE'RE TALKED ABOUT AS ONE OF THE SMALL COUNTRIES ON THE ROTATING SEATS. HILLARY CLINTON GAVE A GOOD INSIGHT INTO THE IMPORTANCE OF THOSE SMALL COUNTRIES. SHE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT AT THE UN, NOT ONLY TO GETA RESOLUTION THROUGH DO YOU HAVE TO AVOID VETO BUT THEN YOU HAVE TO GET NINE OF THE 15 VOTES IN FAVOUR. SO SHE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THOSE SMALL ROTATING NATIONS IN TERMS OF- SO SHE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE INDEPENDENCE? TERMS OF- SO SHE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE INDEPENDENCE? YES, EXACTLY. TIME THAT SHE SPENT AS SECRETARY OF AND SHE TALKED ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF I STATE 'COURTING' THOSE NATIONS. SO I THINK THAT IS THE ONE 'WATCH OUT' FOR NZ. WE'RE GOING TO BE SANDWICHED BETWEEN THE US AND THOSE INTERESTS ON ONE SIDE AND CHINAAND THOSE INTERESTS ON THE OTHER, I AND so IT'S some To BEATOUGH JOB. I SO, MAI, HE WAS SAYING THERE THAT WE ARE AT RISK OF ANNOYING OUR FRIENDS. COULDN'T IT COME BACK TO BITE US? LOOK, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT WE'RE RELEVANT. I THINK THIS IS A STRATEGIC MASTER STROKE. NZERS LOVE BOXING ABOVE OUR WEIGHT. AND WE'RE GOING TO MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE HERE. YES, OF COURSE WE'RE GOING TO ANNOY PEOPLE, BUT AT LEAST WE'RE RELEVANT, AND AS THE MINISTER SAID, WHILE WE'RE BUSY IN THERE BEING LOBBIED ABOUT SECURITY MATTERS, WE'RE ALSO GOING TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT TRADE AND ECONOMIC INTERESTS. JON, DO YOU THINK WE ARE GOING TO MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE? MURRAY MCCULLY IN THAT LEAD-UP TO THE VOTE TALKED ABOUT THE THINGS HE THOUGHT WERE WRONG WITH THE SECURITY COUNCIL. ARE WE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE CHANGING ANY OF THAT? LOOK, I THINK THE REALITY IS WE DO HAVE A GOOD INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE. THAT'S THE REALITY. I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY INTERESTING HEARING HIS ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS, IN PARTICULAR TALKING ABOUT THE CRITICISM OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL. AND IT'S TRUE. THE SECURITY COUNCIL OFTEN HAS FAILED. IT FAILED FOR EXAMPLE OVER SYRIA. BUT IT'S INTERESTING THAT, YOU KNOW, HE DOES WANT TO REFORM IT, BECAUSE WHEN IT CAME TO THE IRAQ WAR IN 2003 THE THEN OPPOSITION, THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, WAS VERY KEEN ON THAT WAR. THEY WERE KEEN ON GOING INTO IRAQ, NZ GOING INTO IRAQ UNILATERALLY, THAT IS WITHOUT UN RESOLUTION. AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE ARE IN THIS MESS RIGHT NOW IN IRAQ - BECAUSE OF THE WAR. NOT ONLY THE WAR, BUT THE WHOLE DECADE OF THE WAR ON TERROR, I THE SO-CALLED WAR ON TERROR. I WHICH IS WHAT JULIA GILLARD WAS ALSO SAYING. SO THE BIG QUESTION ON EVERYONE'S LIPS IS ARE WE GOING TO INVOLVE OURSELVES IN THIS FIGHTAGAINST I-S AND IN MORE THAN A HUMANITARIAN WAY? DO YOU THINK WE'RE ALREADY THERE; WE'RE JUST NOT BEING TOLD IT. I DON'T MEAN PHYSICALLY THERE. I MEAN THE DECISION'S MADE. I THINK IT'S HIGHLY LIKELY. I MEAN, I'M NOT PRIVY TO ALL THE DETAILS. I THINK BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE IT'S HIGHLY LIKELY. IN FACT, WHAT YOU SAW WITH THE AFGHANISTAN CONFLICT, BACK IN 2001, IS THAT NZ SENIOR MILITARY LEADERS WENT TO THE UNITED STATES AND ACTIVELY LOBBIED TO GET IN THERE. AND I DON'T THINK TIM KEATING'S SITTING AROUND A TABLE WITH PEOPLE LIKE THE HEAD OF US MILITARY AND MARTIN DEMPSEY AND PEOPLE LIKE BARACK OBAMA BECAUSE IT'S A REGULAR MEETING. I IT WASNTA REGULAR MEETING. I OF COURSE. IT'S AN ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. WE'RE BEING PLAYED IF WE BELIEVE THAT. TRISH, DO YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD INVOLVE OURSELVES IN? IS IT SOMEONE ELSE'S WAR, OR IS IT OUR WAR TOO? I THINK THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT WE WILL, BUT WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING NOW IS THE DEBATE ABOUT MANDATES IN ALL OF THESE ALLIED COUNTRIES, AND YOU'VE GOT THIS DEBATE GOING ON AT THE SENIOR LEVELS OF CONGRESS IN THE US BECAUSE OBAMA HAS GONE INTO FIGHTING ISIS WITHOUTA MANDATE FROM CONGRESS. AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SEEING PLAYING OUT IN ALL OF THESE OTHER COUNTRIES AS WELL. ON THE ISSUE OF SO-CALLED TERRORISM, THE PRIME MINISTER IS WANTING TO CHANGE THE LAWS HERE SO THAT THEY SO-CALLED TERRORISTS GO OFFSHORE, FIGHT, COME BACK, WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THEM BACK. I 0o WE NEED THAT? I WELL, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT IT, AREN'T WE, BECAUSE HE'S GOING TO TRYAND GET A BROAD-PARTY CONSENSUS, BUT THE DIFFICULTY IS THAT THE CURRENT LAW UNDER THE PASSPORTS ACT I ls PRETTY DIFFICULT TO MEET. I AND YOU'D UNDERSTAND WHY YOU'D HAVE A HIGH THRESHOLD, LISA, BECAUSE OF COURSE YOU'VE GOT THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT UNDER THE BILL OF RIGHTS ACT. YOU'VE ALSO THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION. YOU'VE GOT THE RIGHT OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION. AND SO THAT MEANS THAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO PROTEST; YOU ARE ACTUALLY ALLOWED DISSENT; I AND YOU ARE ALLOWED ADVOCACY. I BUT UNDER THE CURRENT LEGISLATION, YOU CAN TAKE PASSPORTS OFF PEOPLE FOR SECURITY REASONS. BUT YOU HAVE TO MEET THREE TESTS. NOW, IT'S 'REASONABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE OR REASONABLE GROUNDS' WHICH IS A CML TEST, NOT A CRIMINAL TEST, BUT YOU HAVE TO SHOW FIRST OF ALL THAT IT'S AN ACT OF TERRORISM OR IT'S A, YOU KNOW- QUITE A SERIOUS ACT. WHICH RAISES THE QUESTION, JON, IS THIS PART OF SCAREMONGERING, DO YOU THINK? THE WAY THE PRIME MINISTER IS TALKING ABOUT 'THERE'S MORE OF THESE PEOPLE THAN YOU THINK. 'I WON'T TELL YOU WHAT THE NUMBER IS, BUT THERE'S MORE OF THESE FIGHTERS THAN YOU THINK I 'WANTING To so OFFSHORE FROM NZ.' I I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTE SCAREMONGERING. I'VE DONEA COUPLE OF STORIES ON THIS ISSUE AND I CAN SAY FROM WHAT I'VE OBSERVED AND THE PEOPLE I'VE INTERVIEWED THAT THIS HAS BEEN GROSSLY OVERSTATED BY THE PRIME MINISTER AND I THINK IT'S APPALLING POLITICAL JUDGEMENT, BUT MORE IMPORTANT, IT'S APPALLING IN THE SENSE THAT THE VERY PEOPLE THAT YOU NEED TO WIN OVER WHEN YOU'VE GOTA POTENTIAL TERRORIST THREAT ARE THE LOCAL COMMUNITIES FROM WHICH THOSE PEOPLE ARE DERIVED. AND WHEN YOU ALIENATE THEM AND MARGINALISE THEM, AS HAS HAPPENED IN AUSTRALIA, YOU CREATE THE VERY CONDITIONS THAT LEAD TO THAT. SO I THINK IT'S APPALLING, APPALLING JUDGEMENT BY THE PRIME MINISTER. LISA, WE'RE GOING TO KNOW, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A DEBATE. AND THERE IS GOING TO BE A REVIEW, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF THEY NEED LAW REFORM, THEY HAVE TO GET IT THROUGH PARLIAMENT. HAVING SAID THAT, THE GOVERNMENT HAS JUST BEEN RETURNED TO GOVERNMENT ONLY ONE VOTE SHY OF A MAJORITY. SO- YOU'D ARGUE THAT THEY HAVE A MANDATE? WELL, THE DIFFICULTY IS THEY DO HAVE A RECENT ELECTORAL MANDATE, BUT ON THIS ISSUE, THEY HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT IF THEY'RE GOING TO GET WIDE CONSENSUS ACROSS ALL PARTIES- THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PUSH THIS THROUGH UNDER URGENCY. ALL RIGHT, I WANT TO CHANGE GEAR AND TALK ABOUT JULIA GILLARD. THERE YOU HAD THE FIRST FEMALE PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA, OR THE 27TH PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA, I WHICHEVER YOU PREFER TO USE. I DO YOU THINK SHE WAS POORLY TREATED BECAUSE SHE WAS A WOMAN, TRISH? IT'S INTERESTING THAT SHE MENTIONED MISOGYNY BECAUSE SHE ACTUALLY GAVE THATA NEW DEFINITION DURING HER TERM, WHICH WAS A HATRED OF WOMEN ENJOYING TRUE EQUAL RIGHTS. I THINK THAT IN AUSTRALIA THEY PLAY A FAR ROUGHER GAME IN POLITICS AND IN THE MEDIATHAN WE DO. YOU KNOW, THEY CALLED JULIA THE WOMAN WHO WIELDED THE KNIFE. YOU KNOW, THEY CALLED JULIA THE WOMAN WHO WIELDED THE KNIFE. AND I THINK THEY WERE FAR HARDER ON HER GMNG RUDD THE AXE THEN. THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, BECAUSE SHE DID IT TO A BLOKE. OTHER WOMEN LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE SPECIFICALLY REFERRED TO HOW HARSHLY SHE WAS TREATED. CLINTON SAID IT WAS OUTRAGEOUS SEXISM, SO I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF TRUTH IN HOW TOUGH IT WAS ON GILLARD. BUT I THINK SHE'S QUITE CLEAR-EYED IN HER BOOK ALSO AND QUITE UPFRONT ABOUT SOME OF THE MAJOR POLITICAL MISTAKES SHE MADE, LIKE AROUND THE CARBON TAX. THAT ALSO CONTRIBUTED. <i>L</i> MAI, WHAT DO YOU THINK? <i>I</i> WELL, I MUST SAY THAT WHEN SHE WAS PRIME MINISTER I THOUGHT SHE WAS TERRIBLY TREATED, BUT THEN I REFLECT ON THE FACT THAT HELEN CLARK WAS PRETTY TERRIBLY TREATED. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THEY FIRST GO FOR THE PROFESSIONAL- THERE'S A STOCK STANDARD. ...AND THEN THEY GO STRAIGHT TO THE 'OH, WELL, THEY'RE ALL LESBIANS', YOU KNOW? AND THEN THEY GO STRAIGHT TO 'OH, WELL, THEY'RE SLEEPING WITH EVERYBODY.' SO, YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY, POLITICS NEEDS TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THE NATURE OF THE PROFESSION IS, OTHERWISE NO ONE WANTS TO GO INTO IT. I MEAN, WHY DO YOU WANT TO PUT UP WITH ALL OF THIS? EXACTLY. ALL RIGHT, WE'LL TALK MORE LATER. WE'LL TAKE A QUICK BREAK NOW, BUT WE'LL BE BACK WITH MORE SHORTLY. I 0o STAY WITH us. I NOW WE'RE ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL, WILL WE HAVE TO STEP UP ON IRAQ? TRISH SHERSON, MAI CHEN AND JON STEPHENSON. JON, IF I CAN COME TO YOU, I DID ASK MR MCCULLYABOUT THE BEHEADINGS, THAT THESE WERE HORRIFIC IMAGES INVOLVING WESTERNERS. WOULD WE BE INVOLVING OURSELVES I IF THAT IMAGERY WASN'T OUT THERE? I <i>I</i> THAT'S AVERY GOOD QUESTION. <i>I</i> AND I THINK MURRAY MCCULLY WAS COMPLETELY UNABLE TO ANSWER THAT. HE COULDN'T GIVE YOU A CLEAR, COHERENTANSWER. AND I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE WE'RE IN A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION, SAUDI ARABIA FOR EXAMPLE, HAVE VERY VVHERE MANY OF OUR SO-CALLED ALLIES, I BRUTAL AND REPRESSIVE REGIMES. THEY'RE REGIMES THAT ARE, FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD, ARE PRETTY TAWDRY AND FRANKLY WE HAVE A RECORD, THE WEST, OF SUPPORTING COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHO HAVE TORTURED, WHO HAVE MISTREATED THEIR POPULATION FOR YEARS, DENIED THEM DEMOCRACY. YEAH, HE WAS PRETTY KEEN TO SIDESTEP THIS SAUDI ARABIA ISSUE, BECAUSE LAST MONTH THEY DID BEHEAD EIGHT PEOPLE. YES, AND, OF COURSE, WE TRADE WITH THEM. AND THEY HAVE BEEN INVITED INTO THE COALITION. CORRECT. AND THEY HAVE BEEN INVITED INTO THE COALITION. CORRECT. SO, HE COULDN'T- DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT BEHAVIOUR I AND I-s AND SAUDI ARABIA? I LOOK, LETS BE CLEAR, YOU KNOW. ISIS IS NOTA NICE BUNCH OF PEOPLE. BUT I THINK THERE'S A STRONG ARGUMENT THAT WE'RE MOBILISED OR BEING MOBILISED AT THE MOMENT, WE'RE BEING SOFTENED UP TO GO INTO IRAQ AND SYRIA, PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF THE BEHEADINGS OF FOUR OR FIVE WESTERNERS. THERE HAVE BEEN BEHEADINGS AND CRUCIFIXIONS AND RAPES GOING ON IN SAUDI ARABIA- IN SYRIA FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, AND IT DIDN'T SEEM TO TROUBLE ANYONE ENOUGH TO MOBILISE AND GO IN THERE AND SAVE ALL THOSE PEOPLE. THERE ARE HORRIBLE IMAGES. I HEARD JULIA GILLARD TALKING ABOUT THE HORROR OF THOSE IMAGES IN SYRIA. THERE'S HORRIBLE IMAGES COMING OUT OF SOUTH SUDAN. BUT IS IT A BIGGER ISSUE, A WORLD PEACE ISSUE, INSTABILITY, THAT REQUIRES OUR INVOLVEMENT, TRISH? I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT, BUT I THINK THE PROBLEM WE'RE FACING HERE- THIS IS ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS- THERE IS NO END GAME HERE. IT'S VERY HARD TO KNOW. IT'S NOT LIKE THE OTHER CONFLICTS THAT WE'VE GONE INTO. THIS IS MOVING ALL OVER THE SHOW. AND I'VE SEEN THE SAME ARGUMENT ADVANCED, ACTUALLY, ABOUT EBOLA- THAT WE ARE ONLY NOW REACTING TO EBOLA; THAT THE WEST HAS BEEN VERY SLOW; AND IT'S ONLY BEEN SINCE WE'VE HAD CASES, IT'S TURNS OUT- AMERICAAND POSSIBLY IN AUSTRALIA. HAD CASES, IT'S TURNS OUT- AMERICAAND POSSIBLY IN AUSTRALIA. EXACTLY RIGHT. ...THAT WE START TO GET OFF OUR BUMS AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. BUT I THINK WE INEVITABLY WILL GO INTO THIS CONFLICT IN SOME FORM. I DON'T THINK- GIVEN OUR MILITARY CAPABILITY THESE DAYS, WE CAN ONLY EITHER DO LOGISTICS OR WE HAVE THE SAS, WHO MAY ALREADY BE IN THERE, READY TO GO. BUT I THINK THAT THE INTERESTING QUESTION AROUND THIS ONE, AGAIN, IS SINCE THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION'S EVIDENCE COLLAPSED AFTER EVERYONE WENT INTO IRAQ, THESE DAYS COUNTRIES ARE MUCH MORE SENSITIVE ABOUT THE WAY THAT WE GO INTO I THESE THINGS. I I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOME DOMESTIC POLITICS NOW. MAI, JULIA GILLARD SAID THERE THAT FAILED LEADERS SHOULD GO, MARCH; THAT NO GOOD CAN COME FROM HAVING THEM STILL IN THE PARTY. I 0o YOU AGREE wm-a THAT? I I THINK THERE ARE TWO BIG ISSUES FOR LABOUR. THE FIRST ISSUE IS WHETHER THEY'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE BACK IN 2017 OR 2020. AND OF COURSE, WISDOM IS THE UNDERSTANDING OF CONSEQUENCES, OF EVERYTHING THEY'RE DOING NOW. BUT THE SECOND ISSUE IS ACTUALLY RELEVANT TO EVERYBODY. NANAIA MAHUTA ENTERED THE RACE THIS WEEK FOR THE MAORI AND PASIFIKA VOTE, BUT IF YOU PUT MAORI AND PASIFIKA AND ASIAN TOGETHER, IT'S ALREADY 50% IN AUCKLAND. WE'RE SUPER DIVERSE, AND YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WIN GOVERNMENT IN THIS COUNTRY UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU NEED TO COURT THE MAORI, PASIFIKAAND THE ASIAN VOTE. I KNOW THERE WERE 12 ASIAN CANDIDATES AT THE START OF THE RACE. NOW THERE ARE FIVE ASIAN MP8, FOUR OF THEM ARE NATIONALAND ONE OF THEM IS NZ FIRST. I so THE QUESTION FOR-I WE KNOW FROM LOOKING AT THE VOTES IN MORE DETAIL THAT THEY WERE SOFT WITH THE ASIAN VOTE, LABOUR WAS. ABSOLUTELY. SO THEY DON'T SPEAK FOR THE ASIANS ANY MORE. SO THE REAL ISSUE FOR LABOUR IS WHO DO THEY SPEAK FOR AND WHO RESONATES WITH THEM ANY MORE? WHAT ABOUT YOU GUYS? SHOULD THE LEADER GO? ARE THEY MORE TROUBLE THAN THEY'RE WORTH IF THEY STAY? I THINK SHE'S EXACTLY RIGHT. YOU DON'T WANT THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST HANGING AROUND. BUT SHE ALSO SAYS IN HER BOOK THAT THE ALP REQUIRES FUNDAMENTAL REFORM, AND THAT IS WHAT MAI IS TALKING ABOUT WITH THE LABOUR PARTY IN NZ. FUNDAMENTAL REFORM IS REQUIRED IF THEY ARE GOING TO ATTRACT ENOUGH SUPPORT TO REMAIN THE SECOND PARTY I m POLITICS. I I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE FLAG TOO, COS I BET THIS IS GOING TO RAISE SOME DEBATE AT HOME. DO WE-? JUST QUICKLY, SHOULD WE KEEP IT? SHOULD WE MOVE ON? TRISH? ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO CHANGE. THIS IS FEELING LIKE A PERSONAL LEGACY CRUSADE FROM KEY AT A TIME WHEN HE'S WARNED ABOUT NOT GETTING ARROGANT GOING INTO THE THIRD TERM. I SEE NO MAJOR PUSH FROM ANYONE FOR CHANGING THE FLAG, AND NOT IN THE CONTEXT OF EVERYTHING ELSE I THAT'S HAPPENING. I I JON? <i>I</i> PERSONALLY, I THINK THIS IS JUSTAN ENORMOUS DISTRACTION. THIS IS BREAD AND CIRCUSES, I THINK, ATATIME WHEN THIS COUNTRY'S FACING SOME VERY SERIOUS PROBLEMS - CHILD POVERTY, INCREASING INEQUALITY, TROUBLE WITH ORDINARY NZERS TRYING TO FIND HOUSING. IF YOU LOOK AT THE ISSUES ARISING OUT OF DIRTY POLITICS, THIS IS JUST NOT AN IMPORTANT TOPIC. YOU'RE AT ONE WITH THE RSA, PROBABLY AN UNUSUAL POSITION FOR YOU TO BE IN. MAI, WHAT DO YOU RECKON? I THINK NATIONHOOD AND IDENTITY IS IMPORTANT, AND I THINK THE DIFFICULTY IS THAT THIS MAY BE A GOOD WAY FOR US TO START MAKING OUR CONSTITUTIONAL ARRANGEMENTS MORE CONSISTENT WITH THE REALITY, BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT, OUR CONSTITUTIONAL ARRANGEMENTS ARE NOT. I KNOW THIS IS JUST THE FLAG. I KNOW THIS IS NOTA REFERENDUM ON BECOMING A REPUBLIC I ORA HIGHER SUPREME CONSTITUTION I OR CHANGES TO OUR BILL OF RIGHTS. BUT, TO BE HONEST, WE DO NEED TO THINK ABOUT MAKING OUR CONSTITUTIONAL ARRANGEMENTS, INCLUDING OUR FLAG, MORE CONSISTENT WITH OUR IDENTITY. NOW, WHEN I LOOK AT THIS BEAUTIFUL DESIGN, I THINK IT'S THIS ONE HERE. THIS ONE. WE'VE GOT IT JUST DOWN HERE. IT'S GOT STUFF FROM THE PAST. IT RESONATES WITH WHO WE CURRENTLYARE. I MEAN, I JUST THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT, BECAUSE WE CONTINUE TO DISCUSS BIG ISSUES LIKE 'WHY DON'T YOUNG PEOPLE VOTE AT THE ELECTIONS?' WE HAVE ARRANGEMENTS AND FLAGS AND IDENTITIES WHICH ARE REALLY QUITE DISSONANT FROM REALITY. WE NEED TO START BRINGING THESE THINGS TOGETHER. YOU'RE NOT SAYING PEOPLE DON'T VOTE BECAUSE OF THE FLAG, ARE YOU? THESE THINGS TOGETHER. (LAUGHS) WHATA GREAT PLACE TO LEAVE IT. THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING. NOW A QUICK LOOK AT WHATS LIKELY TO BE IN THE HEADLINES NEXT WEEK. LABOUR LEADERSHIP HOPEFUL GRANT ROBERTSON LAUNCHES HIS CAMPAIGN IN AUCKLAND TODAY. WHILE THE CONTEST GETS UNDERWAY IN EARNEST WITH THE FIRST CANDIDATES' MEETING IN WELLINGTON ON WEDNESDAY. I NZ'S 51 ST PARLIAMENT OPENS TOMORROW. I EXPECT THE FIRST QUESTION TIME ON TUESDAY TO BE A CRACKER. AND THE GREENS AND NZ FIRST WILL ANNOUNCE THEIR PARTY SPOKESPEOPLE. AND HERE ON THE NATION NEXT WEEK WE'LLASK FONTERRA BOSS THEO SPIERINGS ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THE CREAM COMING OFF DAIRY PRICES AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR YOU WALLET. PLUS, WITH THE LATEST ROUNDS OF TALKS ON THE POTENTIALLY LUCRATIVE BUT CONTROVERSIAL TRANS-PACIFIC PARTNERSHIP DEAL TO KICK OFF IN AUSTRALIA NEXT WEEK, WE TELL YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE PROPOSAL INVOLVING A THIRD OF WORLD TRADE. WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR COMPANY WHEREVER YOU ARE ON LABOUR WEEKEND, BUT THAT'S IT FOR US TODAY. FROM ME AND THE REST OF THE NATION TEAM, DO HAVE A GOOD WEEK. CAPTIONS BY HUGO SNELL. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014