GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M SUSAN WOOD. ON THE PROGRAMME THIS SUNDAY ` TRUST US, SAYS THE GOVERNMENT AS ITS BILL TO EXTEND SIS POWERS AND TACKLE FOREIGN FIGHTERS LOOKS SET TO BECOME LAW. BUT SHOULD WE? THOSE POWERS WILL BE REVIEWED AGAIN NEXT YEAR. ARE MUCH TOUGHER TERROR LAWS YET TO COME? WE ASK THE MINISTER, CHRIS FINLAYSON. AND IT'S OUR FINAL PROGRAMME. WE'VE INVITED A CROP OF UP-AND-COMING MPS FROM DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE HOUSE TO TALK ABOUT THE YEAR IN POLITICS. WHAT'S COMING UP FOR THEM AND THEIR PARTIES? WE'LL ANALYSE ALL THE ISSUES WITH POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN AND POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF Q+A, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US. TO THE WEEK IN POLITICS. AND, CORIN, GERRY BROWNLEE CAME IN FOR SOME INTENSE QUESTIONING ABOUT WHETHER NZ TROOPS WERE ALREADY TRAINING FOR A POSSIBLE STINT IN SYRIA OR IRAQ. CORIN, ARE WE TRAINING TROOPS? Yes. They are doing some language work. Gerry Brownlee kept going on and on about how there has been no decision made, but I think they are getting ready. People in army have clearly been talking to the media and he was upset about that. He had no reason to turn it into something. It seems ridiculous. There was no point. It seemed to sort of spiral out of control. He got a bit grumpy about it. I think most people would be surprised if people didn't send troops. AND HERE'S GERRY BROWNLEE LOOKING DISTINCTLY UNHAPPY AND HERE'S GERRY BROWNLEE LOOKING DISTINCTLY UNHAPPY. WELL, AN ARMY SOURCE IS BOUND TO KNOW MORE THAN THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE. THANK YOU. THE OTHER BIG STORY THIS WEEK, OF COURSE, IS THAT LABOUR CAME AROUND TO SUPPORTING THE GOVERNMENT'S ANTI-TERROR LEGISLATION. THE BILL HAS BEEN WATERED DOWN, INCLUDING CUTTING THE PROPOSED 48-HOUR PERIOD TO SPY WITHOUT A WARRANT BACK TO 24 HOURS. EARLIER I SPOKE TO THE MINISTER IN CHARGE OF THE SIS, CHRIS FINLAYSON, AND ASKED HOW WOULD THE LEGISLATION MAKE THE COUNTRY SAFE FOR THE CRICKET WORLD CUP? IT WILL MAKE THE COUNTRY THAT MUCH SAFER IN TERMS OF PEOPLE COMING IN TO CAUSE MAYHEM OR PEOPLE WANTING WITHIN NZ TO CAUSE TROUBLE. IT WILL PREVENT THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY. THIS IS PRIMARILY, HOWEVER, AIMED AT THOSE WHO SEEK TO LEAVE NZ TO GO AND FIGHT FOR ISIL IN WHAT IS NOW AN EMERGING ABYSS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. WHY DOESN'T THE BILL THEN DEFINE WHO A FOREIGN FIGHTER IS? WELL, I THINK IT MAKES IT TOLERABLY CLEAR IN THE LEGISLATION EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE AIMING TO DO IN TERMS OF PEOPLE LEAVING NZ AND THE REASON FOR CANCELLATION OF PASSPORTS. BUT WHAT IS A FOREIGN FIGHTER? A FOREIGN FIGHTER WOULD BE SOMEONE, PERHAPS A MERCENARY OR A SELF-DELUSIONAL TYPE OF PERSON WHO BELIEVES THAT HE OR SHE SHOULD LEAVE THIS COUNTRY AND GO THROUGH TURKEY TO SYRIA TO FIGHT FOR THIS PARTICULAR IDEOLOGY. AND WHAT IF THEY WERE GOING TO FIGHT FOR THE KURDS WHO ARE FIGHTING ISIS? SAME PRINCIPLE. WE DO NOT WANT ANY NZERS GETTING CAUGHT UP IN THIS MESS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS, WHETHER THEY GO OFF AND WANT TO FIGHT FOR THE KURDS OR WANT TO FIGHT FOR ISIL. IT IS BEST FOR THEM AND FOR THIS COUNTRY THAT THEY STAY WELL CLEAR OF IT. IT IS BEST FOR THEM AND FOR THIS COUNTRY THAT THEY STAY WELL CLEAR OF IT. BUT THEY'RE FIGHTING IT. THAT'S NOT GETTING CAUGHT UP WITH IT. WELL, IF THEY'RE FIGHTING WITH ISIL, THEY ARE TAKING PART IN AN ORGANISATION THAT'S FUNDAMENTALLY EVIL THAT SEEKS TO RIP UP THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE MIDDLE EAST. I KNOW A LOT OF ASSYRIAN CHRISTIANS BECAUSE THEY LIVE IN MIRAMAR, AND THEY ARE TELLING ME ABOUT HOW THEIR RELATIVES ARE SUFFERING ON THE NINEVEH PLAIN AT THE MOMENT, PARTICULARLY WITH WINTER UPON THEM. THE SUFFERING IS EXTRAORDINARY, AND WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION AS A GOOD INTERNATIONAL CITIZEN TO DO OUR BIT. BUT I COME BACK TO THE POINT ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF THE FOREIGN FIGHTERS, BECAUSE THE CONCERNS OF SOME GROUPS, THE GREENS, FOR EXAMPLE, IS THAT IT ISN'T DEFINED IN THE LEGISLATION. IN FACT, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE 24 HOURS SURVEILLANCE, FOR EXAMPLE, WITHOUT WARRANT, IT'S TALKING ABOUT TERRORIST ACTS. IT DOESN'T TALK ABOUT FOREIGN FIGHTERS. SO IS THERE POTENTIAL FOR THAT TO BE BROADENED OUT AND THE STATE TO START USING THAT POWER ON OTHERS? NO. I THINK` LET'S JUST ADDRESS THE ISSUES OF THE GREENS. THE GREENS WERE GOING TO OPPOSE FROM THE VERY START, AND WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IS FINDING REASONS TO JUSTIFY THEIR` OK, FAIR ENOUGH, BUT THE POINT THAT THEY MAKE IS IT'S NOT DEFINED ` FOREIGN FIGHTERS. WELL, THE ISSUE OF TERRORISM IS WELL DEFINED IN THE TERRORISM SUPPRESSION ACT, AND I DON'T THINK THAT IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THIS THING IN A PRACTICAL WAY IT'S GOING TO BE AN ISSUE AT ALL. THEIR CONCERN, OF COURSE, IS THAT THERE MIGHT BE ECOTERRORISTS OR PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING ACTIONS AGAINST THE STATE IN OTHER AREAS THAT COULD GET CAUGHT UP WITH THIS LEGISLATION. OH, I THINK THAT ANY FAIR-MINDED PERSON LOOKING AT THE SITUATION KNOW THAT THERE IS A GREAT DIFFERENCE AND A BRIGHT LINE THAT CAN BE DRAWN BETWEEN THOSE WHO ARE OPPOSED TO A PARTICULAR FORM OF` WHO DREW THAT LINE? ...OR ARE WANTING TO PROTEST SOMETHING AND CROSS THE LINE INTO ECOTERRORISM. BUT THE LINE HASN'T BEEN DRAWN IN LEGISLATION. SO WHO DRAWS IT? I JUST DO NOT SEE, WHEN ONE LOOKS AT THE LEGISLATION LIKE THE TERRORISM SUPPRESSION ACT, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THERE CAN BE ANY DOUBT, AND THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY RESOLUTION 2178 MAKES IT CLEAR ABOUT WHAT COUNTRIES ARE TO DO TO STOP PEOPLE GETTING INVOLVED IN THIS SORT OF THING. BUT THE SECURITY COUNCIL DOES DEFINE FOREIGN FIGHTERS, DOESN'T IT? BUT THIS LEGISLATION HASN'T. THAT'S THE EXACT CRITICISM OF THE GREENS. WELL, I JUST DON'T SEE THAT IT IS AN ISSUE WHEN ONE LOOKS AT IT FROM A PRACTICAL POINT OF VIEW ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE WANTING TO GO OVERSEAS AND GET INVOLVED WITH GROUPS LIKE ISIL OR BE FREEDOM FIGHTERS FOR OTHER GROUPS. THE REASON IT'S A PRACTICAL ISSUE IS BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT TRUST, ISN'T IT? IT'S ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF NZ PUTTING TRUST IN OUR SECURITY AGENCIES TO MAKE THAT DECISION, TO DECIDE WHO'S A TERRORIST AND WHO'S NOT. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND HOW THERE ARE SOME GROUPS IN NZ WHO ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT THAT? WELL, IT'S NOT THE SECURITY AGENCIES ACTING ON THEIR OWN OR ON A WHIM. THE RIGHT OF THE SECURITY ORGANISATIONS TO ACT IS DEEPLY CONSTRAINED BY THE COMMISSIONER OF WARRANTS, BY ME AS THE MINISTER, BY THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AND BY THE COURTS IF NECESSARY. SO TO SAY THAT THEY CAN OPERATE AS A STATE WITHIN A STATE WITHOUT ANY CONTROL OVER THEM IS FANCIFUL AND WRONG. BUT THEY CAN TAKE AN INDEPENDENT DECISION TO START MONITORING SOMEONE USING A VIDEO CAMERA FOR 24 HOURS OFF THEIR OWN BAT BEFORE THEY HAVE TO GO AND GET A WARRANT. IN EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES AND THEY IMMEDIATELY HAVE TO TELL THE INSPECTOR GENERAL WHAT'S GOING ON, THEY HAVE TO GET TO ME WITHIN 12 HOURS, AND IT WILL BE A VERY EXTRAORDINARY SITUATION, QUITE FRANKLY, WHERE I AM NOT AVAILABLE. THERE IS AN ISSUE, OF COURSE, WITH THE POWERS THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN WITH THIS LEGISLATION AROUND TRUST ` TRUST IN THE SIS. WE'VE HAD A DAMNING REPORT FROM IGIS, THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OF INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY. THERE'S BEEN BUNGLES WITH THE GCSB AS WELL. WHY SHOULD THE PUBLIC PLACE THAT TRUST IN OUR AUTHORITIES GIVEN THE TRACK RECORD OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS? WELL, THE TRACK RECORD ` YOU'VE IDENTIFIED A COUPLE OF PROBLEMS THAT HAVE OCCURRED. BASICALLY, THESE ORGANISATIONS ` ONE'S A DEPARTMENT OF STATE, THE OTHER IS PART OF A CORE CROWN ENTITY ` HAVE DONE A VERY GOOD JOB. IT'S IN THE NATURE OF DEPARTMENTS OF STATE THAT MISTAKES ARE MADE FROM TIME TO TIME. IT IS ULTIMATELY THE PUTTING RIGHT THAT COUNTS. AND I CAN TELL YOU NOW THAT THE INSPECTOR GENERAL MADE EIGHT RECOMMENDATIONS IN RELATION TO THE SIS, AND THEY'RE ALL BEING ACTED ON NOW. I MEAN, TAKE WARREN TUCKER ` A DISTINGUISHED CAREER CIVIL SERVANT, WHO, BY ALL ACCOUNTS, HAS DONE MANY GREAT THINGS. BUT YET, EVEN SOMEONE OF HIS CALIBRE WAS ABLE TO, I GUESS SOME WOULD ARGUE, GO OFF THE RAILS A BIT HERE AND ENABLE INFORMATION FROM THE SIS TO BE PASSED ON VIA THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES. WELL, I'M PLEASED IN THAT WAY, BECAUSE HE WAS A GREAT CIVIL SERVANT WHO PERFORMED TREMENDOUS SERVICE TO THE STATE. WHERE HE WENT WRONG, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WAS THAT HE WAS GIVING HIMSELF COUNSEL, AND IN A LEGAL CONTEXT, PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY A LAWYER WHO ACTS FOR HIMSELF HAS A FOOL FOR A CLIENT. IF THAT CAN HAPPEN TO SOMEONE WITH SUCH A DISTINGUISHED CAREER, COULDN'T THAT HAPPEN TO OTHERS THAT ARE IN THERE? OH, I'M SURE IT COULD. BECAUSE WE'RE HUMAN BEINGS AND WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES ` EVEN YOU. ABSOLUTELY. BUT ARE YOU`? ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE SAFEGUARDS ARE THERE TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN? WELL, LOOK AT THE SAFEGUARDS. THERE WAS A REPORT PREPARED BY THE INSPECTOR GENERAL THAT I PERSONALLY WANTED TABLED ON THE TUESDAY WE WERE HAVING THE FIRST READING OF THE LEGISLATION. WELL, ANSWER THE QUESTION YOURSELF. OF COURSE NOT. BUT I HAD NO SAY OVER THE CONTENT, NO SAY OVER THE TIMING. THE ORGANISATION WHICH I'VE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR FOR ABOUT TWO MONTHS GOT A GOOD KICKING. A NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS WERE MADE, AND REBECCA KITTERIDGE, THE DIRECTOR, SAYS SHE'S WORKING ON IT. THE SYSTEM WORKS, ACTUALLY. WHO ARE THE 80 OR SO PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED BY THE PRIME MINISTER? I MEAN, WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? OH, I'M NOT GONNA GIVE YOU A PARTICULAR PROFILE OF THEM. THAT WOULD BE AN EXTRAORDINARILY DUMB THING ON MY PART TO DO. BUT WE'VE TALKED IN PREVIOUS INTERVIEWS ABOUT POTENTIAL JUVENILE DELINQUENTS WITH CHIPS ON THEIR SHOULDERS. OH, WELL, I THINK IF ONE, FOR EXAMPLE LOOKS AT AUSTRALIA, SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY ` PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUALLY BECOME DISENCHANTED WITH THE MOSQUE, DISENCHANTED WITH THEIR FAITH COMMUNITY, HAVE BECOME SELF-RADICALISED ON THE INTERNET ` AND THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING ` AND DECIDE TO GO OFF AND DO THEIR BIT. AND DO WE HAVE PEOPLE LIKE THAT HERE? THERE ARE... IN GENERAL TERMS, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE DISENCHANTED, HAVE FALLEN OUT WITH THEIR PARTICULAR FAITH COMMUNITY. BUT THAT'S AS FAR AS I'M GOING TO GO, AND SO PRESSING ME FOR FURTHER DETAILS WOULD BE A WASTE OF TIME. NO, THAT'S FINE. WHAT I WOULD PRESS YOU ON` BECAUSE IN AUSTRALIA, THE LEGISLATION THEY ARE PASSING IN THIS AREA GOES A LOT FURTHER THAN IN NZ. IT SURE DOES. AND IT INCLUDES ADVOCATING TERRORISM AS A PENALTY` A PENALTY FOR THAT. NOW, IS THAT WHERE NZ IS GOING TO HAVE TO GO IF WE HAVE THE SAME TYPES OF PEOPLE? I'M NOT GOING TO PRE-EMPT THE PARTICULAR REVIEW WHICH IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE NEXT YEAR, AND I EMPHASIZE THAT THE 2013 REFORMS SAID THAT THERE WOULD BE MANDATORY REVIEW OF ALL SECURITY LEGISLATION IN 2015. THAT INCLUDES THE GCSB ACT, THE SIS ACT, THE INSPECTOR GENERAL ACT, AND THE LAW GOVERNING THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE OF PARLIAMENT. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOURSELF AS A LIBERTARIAN IN TERMS OF YOUR POSITION IN THE NATIONAL PARTY? WOULD YOU BE COMFORTABLE WITH A LEGISLATION THAT WOULD CRACK DOWN ON PEOPLE ADVOCATING TERRORISM? PERSONALLY? I THINK THAT THERE IS A FINE LINE TO BE DRAWN BETWEEN ADVOCATING FOR A PARTICULAR CAUSE AND CROSSING THAT LINE INTO ADVOCATE ACHIEVING AN END TO THAT CAUSE BY VIOLENT MEANS. BUT IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT IT'S THAT TYPE OF ISSUE ` THAT AND OTHER, I GUESS, PART OF THE LEGISLATION THAT AND OTHER, I GUESS, PARTS OF THE LEGISLATION FOR EXAMPLE IN THE UK THAT HAVE GOT A LOT FURTHER AROUND UNIVERSITY LECTURE` EXTREMIST UNIVERSITY LECTURES. THINGS LIKE THIS. WILL WE AS A COUNTRY ` I'M NOT SAYING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ` HAVE TO LOOK AT THESE TYPES OF LAWS AS PART OF THAT REVIEW? I DON'T THINK WE'D PROBABLY HAVE TO GO AS FAR AS THE UK IS LOOKING AT GOING, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHIC MAKE-UP. FOR MYSELF, I STRONGLY VALUE THE RIGHT OF PEOPLE ON A UNIVERSITY TO CRITICISE THE GOVERNMENT ` SOMETIMES VERY VERY STRONGLY. THAT'S ONE OF THE VALUES ONE EXPECTS FROM UNIVERSITIES AND TERTIARY INSTITUTIONS. AND SO ONE WOULD CONSTRAIN THAT ONLY IN THE MOST EXTREME OF CIRCUMSTANCES. BUT THE AUSTRALIAN EXAMPLES ` WILL WE AT LEAST NEED TO LOOK AT THAT? WELL, AS I'VE SAID TO YOU, THERE'S GOING TO BE A FUNDAMENTAL REVIEW OF THE WHOLE RANGE OF THINGS, AND PART FIVE OF THE CRIMES ACT, WHICH DEALS WITH THE PUBLIC ORDER OFFENCES, WILL BE INCLUDED IN THAT. IS THERE A LOT OF PRESSURE COMING FROM AUSTRALIA, THE UK NOW THAT THEY HAVE DONE THESE WIDER REVIEWS AND THAT WE ARE HEADING IN THAT DIRECTION AS WELL? HAVE YOU BEEN SPEAKING WITH YOUR COUNTERPARTS IN AUSTRALIA AND THE UK ABOUT THE NEED FOR FURTHER REFORMS IN THE SECURITY AREA, GIVEN OUR FIVE EYES RELATIONSHIP? OH, SINCE I'VE BECOME THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE, I'VE HAD A COUPLE OF MEETINGS WITH SENATOR GEORGE BRANDIS, WHO'S THE AUSTRALIAN ATTORNEY GENERAL AND IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ASIO, AND I'VE TALKED TO HIM ABOUT WHAT HE'S DOING; HE'S ASKED ME WHAT I'M DOING. BUT BOTH COUNTRIES HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUE IN THEIR OWN WAY. DO YOU THINK WE HAVE A MUCH HARDER DEBATE COMING? THIS WAS A FAST DEBATE WHICH IN FACT YOU'VE BEEN CRITICISED YOURSELF ABOUT CALLING IT A SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS CHIT-CHAT. HAVE WE GOT A HARDER DEBATE COMING? YEAH. WELL, I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THAT WAS A FLIPPANT COMMENT. YOU DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THAT? I ACTUALLY THINK THE SELECT COMMITTEE DID A VERY GOOD JOB. HAVE WE GOT A HARD DEBATE COMING? OH, I THINK IT WOULD BE AN INTERESTING DEBATE, BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO METHODICALLY GO THROUGH ALL THESE PIECES OF LEGISLATION VERY VERY CAREFULLY, AND THERE WILL BE A FULL OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE, AS I SAY, TO MAKE SUBMISSIONS TO THE REVIEWERS AND ALSO THEREAFTER, WHEN THERE'S A BILL IN THE HOUSE, TO MAKE SUBMISSIONS ON THE BILL. BUT OUR FREEDOMS, IS IT...? HAVE WE GOT TO A POINT WHERE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE UP A LITTLE BIT MORE FREEDOM IN ORDER TO KEEP OUR SECURITY? I CERTAINLY HOPE NOT. BUT WE VALUE OUR FREEDOM. BUT TO BE A SOCIETY OPERATING UNDER THE RULE OF LAW WHERE THE LAW IS GREATER THAN ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL OUR LEGISLATION ENSURES THAT OUR PEOPLE CAN LIVE IN FREEDOM AND ENJOY THE FRUITS OF WHAT THIS COUNTRY HAS TO OFFER AND THAT OUR CIVIL SOCIETY IS NOT RIPPED UP BY BARBARIC ACTS OF TERRORISM. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER. YOU CAN EMAIL US. OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF. EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. CORIN'S BACK WITH POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER NEXT, AND LATER, AS IT'S OUR FINAL PROGRAMME ` DIRTY POLITICS, HOUSING, POVERTY ` OUR PANEL OF FIVE UP-AND-COMING MPS ON SOME OF THE BIG ISSUES OF 2015. I QUITE LIKE THE RITUALISM OF CHURCH SOMETIMES, BUT AM I DEEPLY RELIGIOUS, NO? NO, YOU'VE GOT YOUR OWN CHURCH. IT'S CALLED THE LABOUR PARTY. BOTH LAUGH IT'S A BROAD CHURCH TOO. HOW MANY HOUSES DO YOU OWN? ONE. OH, YEAH? THAT'S ALL RIGHT, THEN. WHO ARE YOU MATES IN CAUCUS? UH, WELL, UH, I'VE GOT MATES IN CAUCUS. I DON'T THINK THEY'D WANT ME TO LIST THEIR NAMES. IT'S GOOD TO KNOW YOU'VE GOT SOME. YES, I HAVE. AND PROBABLY MORE THAN THE OTHER FOUR WHO APPEARED TO VOTE FOR ME. RATS? WHO CARES ABOUT RATS? WE KILL THEM. JUST A MINUTE. BUT RATS? I MEAN, WHY NOT TEST IT ON RATS? JUST A MINUTE. RATS HAVE FEELINGS. RABBITS HAVE FEELINGS. HOW DO YOU KNOW RATS HAVE FEELINGS? GIVE A RAT AN ELECTRIC SHOCK AND TELL ME IT DOESN'T HAVE FEELINGS. RABBITS HAVE FEELINGS. RHESUS MONKEYS HAVE FEELINGS. BIG OLD PUPPIES CERTAINLY HAVE FEELINGS. JOHN BANKS ON Q+A EARLIER THIS YEAR GETTING VERY HEATED ABOUT TESTING RECREATIONAL DRUGS ON ANIMALS. AND ` IT'S A STRANGE SEGUEWAY ` IT'S TIME TO BRING IN POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER. Didn't John key draw has line at rabbits? Raymond, of that Chris Finlayson interview, are we any clearer about what constitutes a foreign fighter? Not really. Loose language and ambiguities creep in. You have to examine the legislation clearly and this one was rushed. The whole idea of foreign fighters seems to include mercenaries. What about those people who want to join the liberation movement to get rid of an oppressive regime. They deemed to be fighters? Corin, the original justification from the government was that you would be joining a terrorist organisation if you fight. The Kurds are fighting Isis. Chris Finlayson has made it very clear that it is for mercenaries as well. It is another area. It does not matter. They will not distinguish what side of the fence you on. Here is an area such as Syria. You cannot go there. Unless you are absolutely a valid aid worker and have a special exemption. Will we keep the way of the Australians? Or the Brits? Goodness me, they are talking about you cannot advocate terrorists. This is a problem. You have to take public opinion with you. New Zealanders are fair-minded population. They are concerned about Civil Liberties. They know there isn't a national cricket game starting in February. They know that the FIFA under 20 soccer tournament begins in June. New Zealanders deemed to be a low risk. In contrast, United Kingdom has moved from substantial to extreme risk. We know that there are something like 500 British citizens fighting in Iraq and Syria. They are in a totally different situation. A stranger has a history of oppressive anti-terrorist legislation. We would not want to go the way Australia has gone. The crux will come down to again what Labour is comfortable with. I think it is hugely significant that they backed the spelling the end and got some concessions. 48 hours to 24 hours. Labour has backed it under Little. It is a move back to the middle ground. The support on the next phase is going to be important as well. The left has been way out and looking fragmented and being all over the show. Now Andrew little is in the tent. He is being watched closely. He has had a couple of weeks that have gone brilliantly for him. This is just one of them. It shows that Labour is prepared to be very responsible when it comes to terrorist attacks and it does not want to be seen to oppose the government on it. While they may have backed him on the steering legislation, it will probably not back them on the sending of troops. It will be a stretch for them. I think they have played this one quite well. 'Trust us'. And how much do we care? I think we care quite a lot. When we think about the 2001 terrorism attacks in America, they will live in the memory forever. That was not Pakistan, Nigeria, Kenya that was in the strongest country in the world and at the heart of it. People are concerned that we are protected. There is a trade-off. They don't want to see the country going too far unnecessarily. I think there is one good thing to have come out of the bungles of the GCSB in the SIS. It was a very small office before. That is the crucial but in terms of confidence. Do you think that is enough? Who watches the watchers? The chief constable of the greater Manchester area in the UK has been worrying about the trend towards a police state. Who decides who was an extremist within the University? How far do you take free speech? How much do we trust the establishment? We know they are capable of mistakes and I think this is the problem. We don't know very much about what is going on. And I think that's why the government is to be an honest and straightforward as it possibly can. ANY POLITICIAN IN NZ WHO HAS MADE STATEMENTS LIKE THAT ` THAT THERE'S NO MASS SURVEILLANCE BEING TAKEN PLACE AIMED AT NZERS ` IS A POLITICIAN WHO HAS BEEN DECEIVING THE PUBLIC. OBVIOUSLY, CORIN, I DON'T THINK IT'D BE LOST ON ANYONE, WITH SIX DAYS FROM AN ELECTION, KIM DOTCOM AND HIS LITTLE HENCHMEN ARE DOWN HERE TO TRY AND INFLUENCE THE ELECTION, BUT` WE'LL GET TO THE MOTIVATION, BUT JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION FIRST. WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, GCSB DOES NOT UNDERTAKE MASS SURVEILLANCE AGAINST NZERS, NOR HAVE THEY. US JOURNALIST GLENN GREENWALD AND PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY AHEAD OF KIM DOTCOM'S SO-CALLED 'BIG REVEAL' A WEEK BEFORE THE ELECTION. KIM DOTCOM WAS JUST ONE PLAYER IN WHAT HAS, AT TIMES, BEEN A PRETTY CRAZY YEAR IN POLITICS. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE COLLECTIVE NOUN FOR A GROUP OF MPS IS. A MOB OF MPS? A POD OF POLITICIANS? BUT HERE THEY ARE. LABOUR MP STUART NASH, NATIONAL MP CHRIS BISHOP, NZ FIRST MP TRACEY MARTIN, GREEN MP JAMES SHAW AND MAORI PARTY CO-LEADER MARAMA FOX. I want to start with dirty politics. Chris Bishop, are we in a new paradigm here? I don't think so. I don't think there's always been something unsavory about politics. When the Labour Party used to being government, they always had a wide reach as well. You know Cameron Slater. Your leader says he is toxic. I think New Zealanders are sick to death of dirty politics. The issues that were really important didn't get the airtime they deserve. Is there nothing wrong with their relationship with Cameron Slater? We know on what side of the political spectrum he is on. Do you still talk to him? No, I don't. I read his blog time to time. The greens have been banging away on what a toxic force he is in politics. I think there is a difference between a blogger being open and the Prime Minister's office leaking him information. That is two different kinds of activities. During the campaign, what did you think of dirty politics? We have seen that there are game plans on both sides. The moderate party wanted to step away from the kind of things and concentrate on what really important to the people. This struck me as interesting when the government can't get agreement with its partners on something like the local government amenity act. It was something very interesting to watch. We'll go to housing. Tracy Martin, do you see much hope for young buyers out there? No, I don't see hope at all. Changes education have brought on huge debt to young buyers. What we can all agree on is that housing demand has outstripped housing supply. When we talk about non-New Zealanders buying houses, this is something about staggering migration so you have the infrastructure available to keep housing going. What about the capital gains tax? We have been advocating capital gains tax as long as we have been in Parliament. A significant number of New Zealanders think capital gains tax is a good idea. The thing about housing is people get into an argument of supply and demand. It is a combination of both. Why aren't you doing anything on demand? The only asset class exempt from the capital gains tax is a residential family home. You can't keep taxing people for giving something back. We would like a review of the complete tax system. Do you have something that will replace the capital gains tax to stop the problem of property speculation? It is about yield versus Capital gain. This is being tested in court by IR. We're in early days. Labor will come up with a tax policy going forward. We have such a focus on property, and New Zealanders won't stop buying property just because of a capital gains tax. I find it really ironic that were talking about buying homes and having mortgages woman got a section of the society who have no hope, sleeping in cars, all across our regions where homelessness was never a problem before. We need to address the immediate need. We will be absolutely be pushing this. When we have the opportunity to converse with our ministers, I put homelessness on the table and asked what is being done. I've been assured that something is on the table, but they are people who are not going to have Christmas. The conversation should be about the Increasing level of homelessness. I am working with people who are living on the beach because they can't afford the rent. The conversation of the housing is that the housing market is broken. It doesn't work. There certainly challenges on the housing market. The government has a pretty comprehensive a program going. Nothing in politics is a quick fix. They are only going to help first home buyers and first entrants, but it doesn't do anything for the huge underbelly, those that are homeless or those who will never have a chance of becoming a first home buyer. A quick answer from all of you. Name a politician who is done well this year, not from your own party. James shaw from the greens. I'm struggling to think. Tariana Turia. I was going to say Marema. COLIN CRAIG ` IS HE A THREAT TO YOU? NO. NO, HE'S NOT. HE'S MY NUMBER ONE CONVERT. BUT WILL IT BE YOU? AND, YES, IT WILL BE ME. SO YOU WILL STAND AGAIN IN 2017? ABSOLUTELY, MICHAEL. SO WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM? BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE WILL BE SAYING THIS MORNING IT WAS LEADERSHIP. IT WAS YOU. WELL, I TAKE MY SHARE OF RESPONSIBILITY, BUT THE FEEDBACK I'VE BEEN GETTING IS THAT OUR CAMPAIGN STRONGLY` BUT DID YOU CONNECT WITH VOTERS? I MEAN, YOUR 'PREFERRED PRIME MINISTER' NUMBERS NEVER REALLY GOT UP ABOVE 14. WERE YOU ABLE TO CONNECT? THE THEN-LABOUR LEADER DAVID CUNLIFFE APPEARING ON OUR POST-ELECTION SPECIAL. AND, OF COURSE, LABOUR DID DECIDE ON A NEW LEADER, ANDREW LITTLE. Let's talk about the opposition. Are you worried that labor suddenly got it new leader with a new squeeze of life? No, we're not concerned. I think it's great to have a healthy opposition. What sort of a Labour Party see under Andrew Little? I don't know Andrew Terribly well. That something we will see in the next Year or so. Labor supports the terrorist laws, while ripping the government on the GCSB issue. But they'd like to wipe you out. But we have to get over it. The people need us to get together and collaborate. You have under estimated Andrew Little. He's a fiery guy. I think he will be a strong performer than the last few labor leaders. But he is quick to anger. The NZ public want some composure. It does seem labor has a new lease of life. There was a feeling that we have got a real opportunity now. I think andrew Little can provide a new contrast to John key. Where does the Maori party sit on the issue of the terrorist legislation? Any surveillance done without a warrant is not enough. There's going to be a big review of our intelligence services. I think any review is a good review. We have seen the impact of the misuse of those powers. We have no trust that the expansion of these legislations will not repeat those incidents. We have abstained from our vote in the select committee. There are only two things in this legislation left. One is video surveillance, and the other is the three-year cancellation of the passport. On video surveillance, we still have concern, but our caucus is coming back on Tuesday for major discussion. What about troops? Labor will not back deployment. The government has just not reduce a sound business case for sending troops to fight ISIS. What about fighting as an Anzac deployment? Business case is an interesting word. Everyone is getting a bit ahead of themselves. Stop softening us up. I don't have any insight, but I don't think it'll be fair to describe anything as softening out process. Where does the greens lie in this? We would be against it. Is ISIS a threat? It is a regional threat. There is a significant humanitarian crisis that we should be involved in. One way to make sure there is a thread in New Zealand is getting involved in fighting it. That is what radicalizes people. The United Nations Security Council has asked all member states to act on the issue of foreign fighters. That is consistent with the UN. We are discussing foreign fighters leaving the country which must be well clarified. But this is about sending troops. This will be interesting to see whether this is a big thing for 2015. If New Zealand is going to play a role, it should be in humanitarian capacity. Tracy, why wouldn't you do some contingency training? It is about the truth. What we are pushing for is for the government to actually tell us the truth before the house rises on the 10th. We believe that they know what we know and that they are not telling the New Zealand public. On the flag, do you support the change? I agree with the discussion to recognize the duality of our nation. I think it is a distraction from the real issues. I am strongly supportive of the change to reflect our modern identity. A complete distraction. I think it is about priorities. Thank you all. THANKS, CORIN. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE LAST WORD ON THE POLITICAL YEAR. CORIN TELLS US WHO HE THINKS IS THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN POLITICS, AND IT'S NOT A POLITICIAN. THEY'RE INCENTIVISED TO POLLUTE RIVERS, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT BEING CHARGED FOR THE IMPACT. FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, MY OWN CENTS IS THAT THE DAIRY BOOM IS COMING TO AN END. WE'RE SEEING BETTER PROFITABILITY AT THE MOMENT IN THE DRY STOCK ` THE SHEEP AND CATTLE. WE'VE GOT THESE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES WHICH MIKE QUITE CORRECTLY RAISES. THERE'S A BIT OF A HEADWIND TO THE DAIRY SECTOR. WE'VE GOT A DAIRY SECTOR THAT EXTRAORDINARILY INDEBTED. YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING, 'EVERYBODY ELSE IS FILTHY, 'SO WE'LL BE FILTHY TOO AND BLOW THE ENVIRONMENT, BLOW THE PLANET.' WELL, IT'S THE OPPOSITE OF THAT. IT'S SAYING I KNOW I CAN PREDICT WITH ALMOST COMPLETE CERTAINTY HOW OTHER PEOPLE WILL BEHAVE, AND I'M NOT GONNA IMPOSE A COST ON MYSELF AS AN EMPTY MORAL GESTURE. IS THE ETS AN EMPTY MORAL GESTURE, RUSSEL? SO IT'S ABOUT WHETHER WE TAKE OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS HUMAN BEINGS SERIOUSLY TO OUR CHILDREN OR NOT. I MEAN, IT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD. FORMER ACT LEADER JAMIE WHYTE DEBATING CLIMATE CHANGE WITH RUSSEL NORMAN. WE GOT A LOT OF FEEDBACK ON THAT ONE. RIGHT, CORIN AND RAYMOND ARE BACK FOR OUR FINAL PANEL FOR 2014. Interesting performance there from our five Mps. I really do think that we have five competent Mps. I think Keith Holyoke said new Mps should breathe through their noses in their first 12 months but I am glad they are talking. Other interesting thing was Stuart Nash talking about reviewing the entire tax system. It is a fair point that we overtax labor and undertaxed investment. Capital gains tax was a complete disaster. This would've been a better issue to have come up during the election campaign. Why are people paying tax on the first dollar they earn through labor when hundreds of people are getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in one hit on investment property? I think It's the most fundamental issue facing labor. it is their opportunity to reach out. If labor can come up with a policy that they can sell, then they'll be making huge strides. There's a lot of talk on carbon taxing. You want labor. I think there is a thinking that both the major political parties need to rethink this whole issue. And I think there is an opportunity for consensus on this. But if they would come up with it before the next election... Andrew Little has had a good start. A pretty good smart to put Annette King out there. But has he got the answers, I don't know. But he is identifying the right problems and he is striking up the opportunity for conversations. Is that in fact an update on What social democracy is about? Labor parties really have to rethink how what they're going to get back into power. And they have three years to do it. Third term government. Do you think We will be hearing dirty politics in 2015? They see the voters are turned off by it. But in the beehive and in the gallery, it is still going to be very much the story because there are questions to be asked of our leaders. It is not going to go away. You can guarantee that opposition will keep chipping away at it. The first thing is what was going on in the Prime Minister's office. The second issue is the thing about loyalty. I literally was waiting ahead of the Inspector General's report on how John key would approach this, if he would apologize, and then came out his belligerence, his defiance and that backfired on him. John key is an immensely intelligent and popular politician, but he has failed to keep to his own standards. And It maybe turning in terms of his own personal popularity. The terrorist legislation is going to be a big issue next year. The deployment of troops is going to be a bit talk as well. I would be pretty surprised if they weren't going to send them. The one line is that they won't be combat troops. For the last 25 years, we have seen an independent foreign defense policy from NZ. Economically, with a visit from the Chinese it swinging to China. I say the most influential political figure is Graham Wheeler. He raised interest rates four times and intervene in currency and is looking to be the final defense line in stopping the Auckland housing market taking off again. Who does your gong go to? Only one third of the house is made up of women, and this year I think Paula Bennett. I think she is an effective and feisty politician and talked up as a possible successor to John key. I agree. Pleasures As always. See you next year. MARAE IS NEXT WITH MANA LEADER HONE HARAWIRA. AND Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. THIS IS OUR LAST PROGRAMME FOR THE YEAR. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. WE REALLY DO VALUE YOUR FEEDBACK. THANKS TO NZ ON AIR FOR FUNDING THIS YEAR. WE HOPE TO BE BACK IN 2015. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS, AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A IN 2014. MERRY CHRISTMAS. SEE YOU IN THE NEW YEAR. CAPTIONS BY VIRGINIA PHILP AND AMY PARK. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2014