GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. THIS WEEK ` IN TURKEY, PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY HOLDS ON AS HIS HAIR-PULLING RAISES MORE QUESTIONS. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT YOU MISUSED YOUR POWER? NO, BECAUSE I DIDN'T DELIBERATELY INTEND TO DO THAT. IT WAS THE OPPOSITE. I INTENDED TO TRY AND BE IN A MUCH MORE INFORMAL SORT OF SETTING SO THAT I PUT PEOPLE AT EASE. SO WAS IT JUST HORSEPLAY, OR IS IT A TUG TOO FAR? WILL THE PRIME MINISTER RAISE BEHEADINGS WITH THE SAUDI KING? AND SHOULD WE TAKE MORE REFUGEES? THEN AS SUBMISSIONS CLOSE ON HOW WE DEBATE A NEW FLAG, LEWIS HOLDEN MAKES THE CASE FOR CHANGE, AND RSA CEO DAVID MOGER PROMISES A FIGHT TO KEEP IT. AND LATER ` THIS ANZAC WEEKEND, WE REMEMBER ANOTHER WAR, ANOTHER ANNIVERSARY. VIETNAM VETERANS SPEAK OUT 50 YEARS AFTER WE ENTERED THE CONTROVERSIAL CONFLICT. WE TALK TO GALLIPOLI AUTHOR PETER FITZSIMONS, HAVE A SPECIAL ANZAC ANIMATION NATION, AND OUR PANEL IS MARAMA DAVIDSON, SIMON WILSON AND TRISH SHERSON. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015 THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY. AS EVER, WE'RE KEEN TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE SHOW, SO JUST EMAIL THENATION@TV3.CO.NZ. ON TWITTER OR FACEBOOK, WE'RE THENATION@TV3. OR YOU CAN TEXT 3330 FOR 50C. WELL, PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY TRAVELLED TO TURKEY TO TAKE PART IN THE ANZAC COMMEMORATIONS AND IS CARRYING ON TO SAUDI ARABIA. BUT THE START OF HIS TRIP WAS OVERSHADOWED BY THE NEWS THAT HE REPEATEDLY PULLED THE HAIR OF AN AUCKLAND WAITRESS. WHEN POLITICAL EDITOR PATRICK GOWER SAT DOWN WITH THE PRIME MINISTER IN ISTANBUL, THEY TALKED ABOUT ALL THOSE THINGS, BUT PADDY STARTED BY ASKING WHETHER HE THOUGHT NZ'S IDENTITY BEGAN TO BE FORGED AT GALLIPOLI. I THINK A LOT OF NZERS WOULD SEE THIS DAY AS VERY HISTORIC, THE POINT OF WHICH WE CERTAINLY FORMED OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH AUSTRALIA AND REALISED HOW CLOSE THAT RELATIONSHIP WOULD BE TO THIS VERY DAY. AND I THINK IT WAS THAT POINT AT WHICH NZERS WHO HAD SIGNED UP, OBVIOUSLY, TO GO OFF TO THE WAR, ALL OF A SUDDEN WE COULD SEE JUST HOW HORRIFIC THAT WAS AND WHAT AN ENORMOUS TOLL NZ AND NZERS PAID IN THAT WAR, IN THAT PARTICULAR BATTLE AT GALLIPOLI. YEAH, AND IN TERMS OF THAT HORROR AND IN TERMS OF THE PRICE THAT WE PAID, THERE WAS SUCH A WASTE. WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNT FROM WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT ANZAC BATTLE? WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING IS THAT WAR HAS CHANGED NOW DRAMATICALLY. IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT THE FACT THAT OF A POPULATION OF ABOUT A MILLION PEOPLE, WE SENT 100,000 PEOPLE OFF TO WORLD WAR I. IN GALLIPOLI ALONE, WE LOST JUST UNDER 2800 MEN. AND SO YOU CAN SEE MODERN WARFARE IS QUITE DIFFERENT. SECONDLY, YOU KNOW, HOW TERRIBLY WRONG IT CAN GO. I MEAN, IN THE END, ACTUALLY, THIS WAS A BATTLE WE FUNDAMENTALLY LOST AND A PLACE WHICH CLAIMED THE LIVES OF SO MANY PEOPLE. BUT I THINK, LIKE ALL THINGS IN LIFE, YOU CAN SPEND A LOT OF TIME LOOKING BACKWARDS AND MAKING DECISIONS AND REFLECTING IN HINDSIGHT. I THINK PROBABLY WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS CONTINUE TO LOOK FORWARD AND SAY` AND TAKE A MOMENT, ACTUALLY, TO REFLECT AND THANK THOSE I THINK IT'S 300-ODD THOUSAND PEOPLE THAT AT SOME POINT HAVE JOINED UP AND HAD SERVICE FOR OUR COUNTRY AND FOR WHAT UNDERPINS OUR COUNTRY. SURE, AND IF WE LOOK AT THE ANZAC BATTLE AND IF WE LOOK AT NOW WITH KIWI TROOPS GOING TO IRAQ, DIFFERENT SCALES OBVIOUSLY, AS YOU'VE POINTED OUT. BUT IN SOME SENSES, THOSE ANZAC TROOPS FOUGHT FOR KING AND COUNTRY. THOSE TROOPS THAT ARE GOING TO IRAQ ARE, TO USE YOUR WORDS, FIGHTING FOR THE PRICE OF BEING IN THE CLUB. DO YOU SEE SOME SIMILARITIES IN SOME SENSES IN THAT IN BOTH CASES WE'RE GOING OFF TO FIGHT A WAR SOMEWHERE ELSE, OF COURSE? YEAH. I MEAN, LOOK, YOU DON'T WANT TO DRAW ANALOGIES FROM ONE TO THE OTHER, BECAUSE I THINK YOU DON'T WANT TO CERTAINLY DO ANY DISRESPECT TO THOSE THAT LOST THEIR LIVES IN ANZAC AND THE FAMILIES THAT REMAIN AND MANY OF WHOM WHO CAME TO THE PENINSULA TODAY, ACTUALLY, ULTIMATELY TO PAY THEIR RESPECTS AND TO REFLECT ON THAT SITUATION. AND NOR DO YOU WANT TO UNDERMINE OR DEGRADE IN ANY FORM THE ENORMOUS SACRIFICE THAT THOSE 106 PEOPLE ARE MAKING THAT ARE GOING OFF TO TAJI AIR BASE. THEY'RE JUST DIFFERENT, BUT, I MEAN, IN THE END, YOU KNOW, BOTH OF THE SITUATIONS WHERE WE BELIEVED AS A COUNTRY AT LEAST, THAT WHAT WE WERE FIGHTING FOR WAS SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WAS IN OUR COUNTRY AND IT WAS SOMETHING WORTH FIGHTING FOR. AND I THINK IN THE END, IF YOU LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE ISIL, I MEAN, IT'S A MODERN DAY WARFARE. IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT FROM EVERYTHING ELSE. IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT FROM, CLEARLY, WORLD WAR I AND THE GALLIPOLI CAMPAIGN. BUT IN THE END, YOU KNOW, ISIL DO WANT TO BRING THE WAR TO NZ. I MEAN, THEY DO WANT TO PHYSICALLY DO HARM TO NZERS IN OUR COUNTRY, IN THE REGION AND IN THE MIDDLE EAST REGION. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE SIMILARITIES THERE THAT IN THE END WE ARE FIGHTING FOR THE THINGS WE BELIEVE IN. AND ON THAT, YOU TALKED EARLIER ABOUT MODERN WARFARE CHANGING ` OF COURSE, THE SCALE OF THINGS HAS CHANGED. IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU LEARNT FROM GALLIPOLI THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT WORTH JUST RUSHING IN, AND THAT'S WHY WE SEE WITH THE TRAINERS A RELATIVELY MINOR KIND OF CONTRIBUTION? IS THAT A LESSON THAT YOU'VE LEARNT? TRAINERS A RELATIVELY MINOR KIND OF CONTRIBUTION? IS THAT A LESSON THAT YOU'VE LEARNT? WELL, I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT IT'S THOUGHTFUL. WE GAVE AN AWFUL LOT OF THOUGHT TO WHETHER WE WOULD DO SOMETHING, WHAT WE WOULD DO, HOW WE COULD BEST PROTECT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING THERE. AND I THINK WE'VE IN THAT RESPECT TICKED THE CORRECT BOXES, WHICH IS I DO BELIEVE WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING FOR ALL THE REASONS I'VE OUTLINED IN THE PAST. I THINK WE CAN'T JUST SIT BACK, AND THERE ARE 60-ODD COUNTRIES MAKING A CONTRIBUTION OF SOME SORT. BUT SECONDLY, WE DO HAVE TO DO THE VERY BEST WE CAN TO PROTECT OUR PEOPLE. AND I THINK PUTTING THEM IN TAJI AIR BASE ` IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT WITHOUT RISK. THERE ARE RISKS IN IRAQ BY DEFINITION, BUT THEY'RE IN ONE OF THE MORE SAFER ENVIRONMENTS. I MEAN, ARGUABLY, THEY MAY WELL BE A LITTLE SAFER THAN THE PEOPLE WE HAD, FOR INSTANCE, IN BAMIYAN THAT WERE HAVING TO TRAVEL UP TO THE NORTHERN BASES AND HAD TO GO ACROSS THOSE ROADS WITH IEDS ON THEM AND THE TALIBAN OUT THERE IN CERTAIN POCKETS UP THERE IN AFGHANISTAN. SURE. LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE WIDER ISSUES BEING CAUSED IN THIS REGION HERE IN TURKEY AND AROUND HERE BY, IN PART, ACTUALLY, IS. YEAH. AND AROUND HERE BY, IN PART, ACTUALLY, IS. YEAH. AND ONE OF THOSE ISSUES IS REFUGEES. TWO MILLION REFUGEES FROM SYRIA... YEAH. YEAH. TWO MILLION REFUGEES FROM SYRIA... YEAH. YEAH. ...HERE IN TURKEY RIGHT NOW. IS ONE OPTION FOR US EXTENDING THE NUMBER OF REFUGEES THAT NZ TAKES TO HELP OUT, GOING BEYOND THAT 750 THAT WE'VE GOT? ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO THAT? WELL, WE COULD ALWAYS DO THAT. I THINK IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING, THOUGH, ON THIS 750, WE ALSO HAVE FAMILY REUNIFICATIONS, SO GENERALLY THERE'S A LOT MORE PEOPLE THAT COME. AND I'VE ALWAYS SORT OF TRIED TO MAKE THE CASE THAT I THINK IT'S BETTER FOR US TO TAKE THE NUMBER WE'VE BEEN TAKING AND DO A REALLY GOOD JOB, BECAUSE WE NEED TO BE INTENSIVE IN THE WRAP-AROUND SERVICES THAT WE GIVE THOSE PEOPLE. AND, LOOK, IF WE MOVE FROM 750 TO A THOUSAND, SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY, 'YES, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT GESTURE,' BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF A COUPLE OF MILLION DISPLACED SYRIANS WHO ARE LIVING HERE IN TURKEY, MANY OF WHOM, IF YOU LISTEN TO OUR HIGH COMMISSIONER, WHO WILL TELL YOU ` OUR AMBASSADOR WILL TELL YOU ` THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO GO BACK TO SYRIA AT THE FIRST CHANCE THEY ACTUALLY CAN. THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO GO BACK TO SURE. ACTUALLY CAN. THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO GO BACK TO SURE. SO, LOOK, I DON'T` I DON'T KNOW. I THINK WE'RE PLAYING OUR PART IN TERMS OF TAKING 750. SO AS YOU SAY, 750 WON'T CHANGE? THAT'S NOT MY INTENTION TO CHANGE IT, NO, BUT TO DO A GOOD JOB OF THE 750 THAT WE BRING AND THEIR FAMILIES. ONE OF THE ISSUES WITH IS, AND YOU'VE SPOKEN ABOUT THIS AS WELL, IS BEHEADINGS. YES. YOU'VE SPOKEN ABOUT THIS AS WELL, IS BEHEADINGS. YES. AND YOU'VE SPOKEN OF HOW HORRIFIC THEY ARE. YET HERE WE ARE ABOUT TO GO TO SAUDI ARABIA, WHERE BEHEADINGS ARE STATE SANCTIONED. YEAH. SAUDI ARABIA, WHERE BEHEADINGS ARE STATE SANCTIONED. YEAH. WILL YOU RAISE THAT WITH THE KING WHEN YOU GO THERE? WILL YOU RAISE THAT HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE OF STATE-SANCTIONED BEHEADINGS WITH HIM? TYPICALLY, WHAT WE DO IS WE RAISE HUMAN RIGHTS, AND SOMETIMES WE RAISE THEM IN A GENERAL SENSE IN THE DISCUSSIONS. WE DON'T LABOUR THE POINT, BUT WE SOMETIMES DO, AND WE MAY DO THAT WITH THE KING IN SAUDI ARABIA. YOU MAY DO IT? WE MAY DO. I HAVEN'T LOOKED THROUGH THE TALKING POINTS OF WHAT I'M GOING TO PARTICULARLY COVER WITH HIM, BUT WE CERTAINLY MAY. BUT THE REASON I SAY THAT IS BECAUSE WE DO COVER OFF THAT ISSUE OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN QUITE A DETAILED FORM. WE TEND TO DO IT THROUGH THE FOREIGN MINISTER. WE TEND TO DO IT THROUGH THE MINISTRIES. SO WE HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S NOT WORTHY OF RAISING THAT ISSUE. TANGENTIALLY, WE PROBABLY WILL, BUT THE REALLY DETAILED DRILLING DOWN INTO THAT ISSUE HAPPENS AT A FOREIGN-MINISTER LEVEL. BUT DOES IT APPAL YOU, THOUGH, THAT THEY BEHEAD PEOPLE FOR THINGS LIKE BLASPHEMY THERE? DOES THAT APPAL YOU PERSONALLY? THEY BEHEAD PEOPLE FOR THINGS LIKE BLASPHEMY THERE? DOES THAT APPAL YOU PERSONALLY? YES, BUT THERE ARE MANY COUNTRIES THAT WE TRADE WITH AND THAT WE VISIT THAT BASICALLY HAVE SORT OF EITHER CAPITAL PUNISHMENT OR HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES THAT WE WOULD FIND QUITE ABHORRENT IN NZ. AND I GUESS THE QUESTION ALWAYS IS ` IS IT BETTER JUST TO COMPLETELY DISENGAGE, OR IS IT BETTER TO ENGAGE? I'LL BE THE FIRST PRIME MINISTER IN NZ'S HISTORY TO GO TO SAUDI ARABIA. I THINK THAT'S IN ITSELF A GOOD THING IF WE CAN GET THE GULF STATES FREE TRADE AGREEMENT OFF THE GROUND. AGAIN, TYING IN TRADING TOGETHER DOES BUILD GREATER RELATIONSHIPS AND MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO DISCUSS THE SORTS OF ISSUES THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. AND, YOU KNOW, LET'S SEE HOW IT GOES. THERE'S A NEW KING THAT'S IN PLACE ` KING SALMAN ` OBVIOUSLY IN SAUDI ARABIA. LET'S SEE IF HE BRINGS A SLIGHTLY MORE MODERATE VIEW ON SOME OF THOSE ISSUES THAT YOU RAISED. MOVING NOW TO ANOTHER ISSUE THAT HAS BEEN DOMINATING THINGS, AND THAT IS, OF COURSE, THE PONYTAIL-PULLING INCIDENT. SOME PEOPLE BACK AT HOME ARE SAYING, 'HEY, WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS ABOUT? 'YOU KNOW, CAN'T WE HAVE ANY FUN ANY MORE?' OH YEAH, BUT, LOOK, I'VE TRIED TO GIVE A BIT OF CONTEXT AROUND WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED THERE, AND I ACCEPT THAT THAT WILL BE SOME PEOPLE'S VIEW, BUT THERE'S ALSO ANOTHER VIEW, WHICH IS I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER AT READING THAT SITUATION MORE CAREFULLY. I COMPLETELY FAILED TO READ THAT SITUATION CORRECTLY. I ACTUALLY REGRET THAT VERY DEEPLY. I REGRET IT FOR THE YOUNG WOMAN IN QUESTION. YES, I WAS KIDDING AROUND. I DIDN'T MEAN ANY OFFENCE, BUT THAT SHOWS YOU THE DANGER OF, YOU KNOW, UNDERTAKING THOSE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, KIND OF PRANKS, IF YOU LIKE, THAT THEY CAN BE MISINTERPRETED AND MISREAD. SO WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO SAY, 'WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS ABOUT NOTHING?' THAT THEY'RE WRONG, OBVIOUSLY? NO, I'M JUST SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY OWN ACTIONS. I COMPLETELY MISREAD THE SITUATION, CLEARLY, OTHERWISE, YOU KNOW, IT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED. AND I JUST DIDN'T SEE IT FOR WHAT IT WAS. I DID SEE IT IN A VERY LIGHT-HEARTED NATURE. I'VE GOT A VERY CASUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PEOPLE THERE. WE DO HAVE LOT OF FUN, BUT I MISREAD IT. BUT HERE'S THE WAY OF LOOKING AT IT, ISN'T IT? I MEAN, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMEBODY DID IT TO YOU? AND THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S THE COUNTER-ARGUMENT. I MEAN, LOOK` I MEAN, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMEBODY PULLED YOUR HAIR? WELL, IF IT WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WAY IT HAPPENED THERE, I WOULD SEE IT IN THAT CONTEXT, BUT I ABSOLUTELY 100% APPRECIATE IN HINDSIGHT SHE DIDN'T, AND I SHOULD'VE READ THAT SITUATION MORE ACCURATELY. YEAH, BECAUSE IT'S NOT IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT HAPPENED THERE, IS IT? THE CONTEXT REALLY IS ABOUT POWER. YOU'RE THE PRIME MINISTER; SHE'S SOMEONE WORKING IN A JOB. YES, I UNDERSTAND THAT'S SOME PEOPLE'S ARGUMENT. DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU ABUSED YOUR POWER? WELL, AS I SAY, THERE'S A COUNTER-ARGUMENT FOR THAT, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, BY NATURE I'M A PRETTY CASUAL PERSON AND I DO KID AROUND AND HAVE A BIT OF FUN. AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MAJORITY OF STAFF THERE HAVE ENJOYED AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS THE FACT THAT` STAFF THERE HAVE ENJOYED AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS THE FACT THAT` I GUESS THE QUESTION IS` THAT'S THE OPPOSITE. RATHER THAN THE POWER THING AND ME BEING A BIT STUCK-UP, I'VE BEEN MUCKING AROUND AND HAVING A BIT OF FUN. NOW, YOU KNOW, OK, IN THE END I GOT THAT WRONG. I HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT. YEAH, AND WHEN YOU ACCEPT THAT YOU GOT IT WRONG, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT YOU MISUSED YOUR POWER? NO, BECAUSE I DIDN'T DELIBERATELY INTEND TO DO THAT. IT WAS THE OPPOSITE. I INTENDED TO TRY AND BE IN AN MUCH MORE INFORMAL SORT OF SETTING SO THAT I PUT PEOPLE AT EASE AND WE COULD HAVE A BIT OF A LAUGH AND HAVE A BIT OF FUN, SO IT'S REALLY THE OPPOSITE. BUT I ACCEPT THAT THAT'S AN INTERPRETATION THAT SOMEONE COULD GET. SURE, AND ON THAT, I MEAN, DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'VE LET YOURSELF DOWN? YES, BUT I ALSO HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY OWN ACTIONS. SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY THIS, YOU KNOW, AND I HAVE TO ASK YOU ` WHY THE HAIR-PULLING? WELL, I MEAN, LOOK, IT WAS ALL JUST PART OF, YOU KNOW, A BIT OF JOCULARITY THAT WAS HAPPENING. BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT THING IN THE COLD LIGHT OF DAY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE THINGS. SOME THINGS ARE A BIT OF KIDDING ROUND AT THE TIME THAT DON'T SEEM THAT FUNNY LATER ON WHEN THEY'RE REFLECTED ON IN THE COLD LIGHT OF DAY. I SEE THAT AND ACCEPT THAT NOW. WHEN THEY'RE REFLECTED ON IN THE PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ACCEPT THAT NOW. WHEN THEY'RE REFLECTED ON IN THE PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANKS VERY MUCH. STILL TO COME ON THE NATION ` WHAT'S IN A FLAG? WE TALK TO BOTH SIDES OF THE REFERENDUM DEBATE. AND IT'S BEEN 50 YEARS SINCE WE SENT TROOPS TO VIETNAM. TORBEN AKEL TALKS TO SOME OF THE VETERANS STILL LIVING WITH THE SCARS. LIKE MANY OF US IN NZ, AUSTRALIAN AUTHOR PETER FITZSIMONS WAS RAISED ON THE GALLIPOLI STORY AND HAS WRITTEN A RIPPER STORY ABOUT IT. HE CALLS THE BATTLE A CATASTROPHE, AND WHEN HAMISH CLARK CAUGHT UP WITH HIM IN SYDNEY, HE ASKED HOW MUCH RESPECT THE ANZAC STORY GETS IN AUSTRALIA. I GREATLY RESPECT THE KIWI INPUT AND` WELL, NOT EVEN INPUT. YOU KNOW, WE WERE BROTHERS IN ARMS TOGETHER. AND I PARTICULARLY ADMIRE WILLIAM MALONE OF THE WELLINGTON BATTALION. I DON'T KNOW HOW ICONIC HE IS IN NZ, BUT HE BLOODY WELL SHOULD BE. HE WAS A MAGNIFICENT LEADER OF MEN, AND HIS HALLMARK WAS CARE FOR THOSE MEN, TO SAY HIS FIRST DUTY AS LEADER OF THOSE MEN WAS IDEALLY FOR THEM TO SURVIVE, AND IF THEY WERE GOING TO GIVE THEIR LIVES BUT TO GIVE THEIR LIVES WITH A CHANCE OF SURVIVING, OF ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING. WIDER... IN WIDER AUSTRALIA, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THE KIWIS DON'T GET THE ATTENTION THAT THEY DESERVE. I DON'T KNOW. HOW MUCH ATTENTION DO AUSTRALIANS GET WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR ANZAC DAY? THEY ARE INCLUDED. ALL RIGHT. WELL` THEY ARE INCLUDED. ALL RIGHT. WELL` AND NZ IS INCLUDED HERE IN AUSTRALIA. I SUSPECT NOT QUITE AS MUCH AS THEY SHOULD BE, COS THEY WERE MAGNIFICENT SOLDIERS, AND THERE WAS A BRILLIANT BOOK WRITTEN ON THIS SUBJECT NOT LONG AGO. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WROTE IT. AND THE ACTUAL STANDARD OF SOLDIERY OF THOSE WHO JOINED UP OUT OF NZ WAS A VERY HIGH STANDARD. THEY WERE GENERALLY EXTREMELY HIGHLY REGARDED. WERE THEY A HIGHER STANDARD THAN THE AUSTRALIAN SOLDIER? YES, THEY WERE BECAUSE THEY WERE BETTER TRAINED. YOU HAD` WE WERE TAKING` I MEAN, BROADLY, WE WERE TAKING BUTCHERS, BAKERS, CANDLESTICK-MAKERS, RICH MEN, POOR MEN, BEGGARMAN, THIEF. AND IN THAT FIRST AND PARTICULARLY IN THE FIRST INTAKE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A VERY WIDE NET THAT PULLED IN A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM EVERYWHERE. WHEREAS I THINK YOUR NET WAS NARROWER, AND YOU WERE GETTING A LOT MORE PROFESSIONAL SOLDIERS EARLY UP. THAT'S A BIG THING FOR AN AUSTRALIAN TO SAY. MORE PROFESSIONAL SOLDIERS EARLY UP. THAT'S A BIG THING FOR AN AUSTRALIAN TO SAY. OH, WELL, JUST HISTORICAL FACT. WHAT WAS THE MOST TELLING STORY YOU GOT WHEN WRITING AND RESEARCHING THE BOOK? THE THING THAT MOST AMAZED ME WAS A NOTION IN AUSTRALIA, AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS PRESENT IN NZ, BUT THERE WAS A TRAGIC NOTION IN AUSTRALIA THAT WE'RE NOT A REAL NATION; WE'RE NOT A SERIOUS DINKUM NATION UNTIL WE HAVE SHED BLOOD, BOTH THAT OF OUR ENEMIES AND THOSE OF OURSELVES IN THE SERVICE OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE. YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IT WAS A GATHERING OF PEOPLE. THE ACTUAL COLONIES COMING TOGETHER ` IT MAY BE A GREAT STORY, I DON'T KNOW. YOU KNOW WHY? COS I DON'T KNOW IT, BECAUSE I KNOW BITS AND PIECES OF IT ` SIR HENRY PARKES ` BUT IT'S NOT` YOU KNOW, THE THING ABOUT GALLIPOLI ` IT'S A CRACKER STORY. YOU KNOW, ROWING TOWARDS THE SHORE IN THE DAWN, THE LITTLE SLIVER OF LIGHT, THE VISION OF A MAN ON THE HILLS SHOUTING SOMETHING IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, BULLETS STARTING TO COME, AND THEY HIT THE BEACHES AND THEY CLIMB THE CLIFFS, AND IT'S A GREAT STORY, WHEREAS FEDERATION DOESN'T QUITE CUT IT AS A GREAT, INSPIRING STORY. WE OCCUPIED 400 ACRES OF TURKISH SOIL, SO THERE WAS A RING OF AROUND 400 ACRES. EIGHT MONTHS LATER, 9000 DEAD AUSTRALIANS LATER, 2000 DEAD KIWIS LATER, WE CONTROLLED 0.3, CARRY ONE, SUBTRACT TWO ` 400 ACRES. WE HAD NOT MOVED. AND YET IT WAS TRIUMPH ENOUGH IN ITSELF JUST TO CLING ON TO THE LAND THAT WE HAD. ONE PROBLEM WITH THE WHOLE THING ` THERE WAS A GENERAL DISMISSIVENESS AT THE HIGHEST COMMANDS OF THE TURKS. THERE WAS NO REAL CONCEPTION THAT THESE` I MEAN, TURKEY ITSELF WAS REFERRED ` THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE ` WAS REFERRED TO AS 'THE SICK MAN OF EUROPE'. THAT WAS THE FAMOUS APHORISM OR FAMOUS PHRASE APPLIED TO THEM. AND YET THEY IGNORED THE FACT THAT EVEN THOUGH THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE WAS VERY BADLY AILING AND HAD LOST A LOT OF ITS TERRITORY, IT STILL HAD 400 YEARS OF MARTIAL TRADITION. ITS ARMED FORCES WERE OCCUPIED BY MEN WHO WERE PREPARED TO GIVE THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT, AND FIGHT THEY DID. AND ON THAT FIRST GREAT BATTLE, ON THE 19TH OF MAY, JUST MASSES AND MASSES AND MASSES OF TURKISH SOLDIERS RUNNING FORWARD, SHOUTING, 'ALLAH, ALLAH, ALLAH.' THEY BELIEVED. THEY WERE COMMITTED, AND THEY WERE GOOD SOLDIERS. CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT THE FRONT COVER OF THE BOOK? BECAUSE I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT THE PHOTO OF THOSE MEN ARE KIWI SOLDIERS. YEP. I'D BE VERY SURPRISED, BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL PHOTO THAT WE HAD ON THERE WAS ABANDONED BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T AUSTRALIANS, AND THAT ONE, I'M TOLD, IS AUSTRALIANS. YOU MAY BE RIGHT. THEY'RE ANZACS. GOOD LUCK TO US. IF THEY ARE NZ SOLDIERS, HOW DO YOU FEEL? IT'S GOT ANZACS ON THE COVER OF IT. IT DOESN'T SAY 'PETER FITZSIMONS' AUSTRALIAN GALLIPOLI BOOK'. IT'S ANZACS. IT'S WHOLE ANZACS. IF IT'S KIWIS, GOOD. THEY'RE OUR BROTHERS-IN-ARMS. WAS YOUR FAMILY INVOLVED IN GALLIPOLI? NO, MY FATHER FOUGHT IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR AND MY MOTHER SERVED IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR TOO. WE'RE VERY PROUD OF THAT PART OF OUR FAMILY HISTORY. MY GRANDFATHER WAS IN THE BOER WAR. BUT GRANDPA WAS TOO OLD FOR THE FIRST WORLD WAR AND MY OTHER GRANDFATHER WAS` BOTH MY GRANDFATHERS WERE TOO OLD FOR THE FIRST WORLD WAR. WHAT'S THE ATTITUDE TO ANZAC DAY HERE IN NZ? IS IT MYTH? IS IT LEGEND? IS IT TRUTH? IT CAN GET` IT BORDERS SOMETIMES ON BEING TOO HAIRY-CHESTED, TOO BEATING OF THE CHEST. THE WHOLE POINT OF WHAT HAPPENED AT GALLIPOLI ` IT IS FOR US TO COMMEMORATE, IT IS NOT TO CELEBRATE. I MEAN, WHAT HAPPENED THERE WAS A DISASTER, A CATASTROPHE. YOU HAD GOOD MEN GOING TO THEIR EARLY GRAVES. WE SHOULD BE BOWING OUR HEADS AND SAYING, 'THIS IS A TRAGEDY.' ANZAC DAY'S NOT TO BE CELEBRATED, BUT HUGE CROWDS DO TURN OUT. HAS THERE BEEN A BIT OFF A TURNOFF IN THIS 100TH ANNIVERSARY? IT'S POSSIBLE THAT IN AUSTRALIA RIGHT NOW THAT THERE IS GALLIPOLI FATIGUE. MY WIFE WORKS FOR THE CHANNEL NINE NETWORK, AND THEY RAN THE EIGHT-PART SERIES GALLIPOLI, WHICH WAS A BLOODY GOOD SERIES. IT WAS REALLY WELL PUT-TOGETHER ` BEAUTIFULLY PRODUCED, BEAUTIFULLY ACTED, FINELY SCRIPTED AND I ENJOYED IT. AUSTRALIA DIDN'T. AUSTRALIA TURNED IT OFF IN DROVES. AND OTHER THINGS. CHANNEL 7'S GOT A SERIES ON CALLED POWER OF KIN, BEN ROBERT SMITH WHO'S A WINNER OF THE VICTORIA CROSS. I'M TOLD THAT THAT'S RATING POORLY TOO. THERE'S SO MUCH GALLIPOLI, GALLIPOLI, GALLIPOLI EVERYWHERE THAT IT MAY BE THAT AUSTRALIA IS A BIT... EITHER GALLIPOLI-ED OUT OR WAITING FOR THE ACTUAL DAY. I THINK AS THE YEARS GO BY, OUR ATTENTION SPAN, OUR LEADING TIME TO BIG EVENTS GETS SHORTER AND SHORTER, COS THERE'S SO MUCH ELSE ON. BUT IT IS POSSIBLE THAT WE'RE OVER GALLIPOLI-ED. I'M NOT, BUT I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT AUSTRALIA IS. PETER, WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHTS ON NZ POSSIBLY HAVING A NEW FLAG? I'M IN VERY DELICATE TERRITORY HERE, BECAUSE I'M A LOUDMOUTH AUSTRALIAN, AND IT IS NONE OF MY DAMN BUSINESS WHAT NZ DOES WITH HER FLAG. HOWEVER, IF YOU ARE ASKING, I AM PASSIONATE IN THE VIEW THAT MANY OF US IN AUSTRALIA WHO ARE ON THE SIDE OF PROGRESS AND PROGRESSIVE POLITICS ` I'M ON THE BOARD OF OZ FLAG, AND WE HAVE ONE THING THAT WE'RE DEVOTED FOR. AUSTRALIA HAVING A FLAG OF OUR OWN, UNBURDENED BY THE FLAG OF ANOTHER NATION UPON IT. SO I'LL LEAVE YOU KIWIS TO SORT YOURSELVES OUT, BUT I'LL SAY THIS FOR AUSTRALIA ` IT IS LUDICROUS IN 2015 TO EMBLAZON THE FLAG OF ANOTHER NATION AND TO DEFINE OURSELVES BY OUR RELATION WITH ANOTHER NATION. AUSTRALIA AND NZ HAVE HAD A SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP POLITICALLY OVER THE YEARS. WE SORT OF FIRE OFF EACH OTHER, AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT NZ USED TO BE FAIRLY REACTIONARY BEHIND PROGRESSIVE AUSTRALIAN POLITICS. THEN DAVID LANGE CAME ALONG AND MOVED IT A LONG WAY FORWARD. BUT I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT SIR ROBERT MULDOON ` WHO I QUITE LIKED, PERSONALLY ` PULLED IT ALL BACK A BIT. I REALLY LIKED WHEN HELEN CLARK WHEN AUSTRALIA WAS SAYING, 'WE STAND SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH AMERICA', I LIKED YOUR PRIME MINISTER HELEN CLARK SAYING, WE STAND SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH THE UN. AND I REALLY LIKE YOUR PRIME MINISTER NOW, JOHN KEY, PUSHING FORWARD ON SO MANY THINGS. I THINK THE FACT THAT NZ'S GOT GAY MARRIAGE IS FANTASTIC. IT IS LUDICROUS THAT AUSTRALIA DOESN'T HAVE IT. THE FACT THAT YOU'VE GOT A PRIME MINISTER THAT SAYS, 'LET'S CHANGE THE FLAG' ` WOW! WOW! HE WILL BE REMEMBERED FOR THAT. WHAT A LEGACY FOR HIM, WHAT A LEGACY FOR THE NATION. WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON ANZAC DAY? WHAT A LEGACY FOR HIM, WHAT A LEGACY FOR THE NATION. WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON ANZAC DAY? I WILL BE ON THE SHORES OF GALLIPOLI. I'LL KNOW HOW I'LL FEEL. I'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE, AND EVERY TIME I'M AT ANZAC COVE AND EVERY TIME I WALK THROUGH LONE PINE CEMETERY AND SHELL COVE AND ALL THOSE, I JUST FEEL WHAT A DEVASTATING WASTE OF LIFE. WHAT A CATASTROPHIC THING THAT HAPPENED HERE. IT'S RIGHT THAT WE COMMEMORATE AND NOT CELEBRATE. THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS YEAR'S ANZAC DAY COMMEMORATIONS HAVE PUT THE SPOTLIGHT BACK ON THE NZ FLAG. IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS, PUBLIC CONSULTATION BEGINS ON WHAT A NEW NZ FLAG MAY LOOK LIKE. DAVID MOGER FROM THE RSA AND 'CHANGE THE FLAG' CAMPAIGNER LEWIS HOLDEN JOIN ME IN THE STUDIO TO DEBATE THE RIGHTS AND WRONGS. WHAT IS A FLAG FOR, DO YOU THINK? IT IS SOMETHING THAT EMBODIES EVERYTHING THAT A COUNTRY IS, HAS BEEN AND WILL BE. IT'S A SYMBOL THAT THAT COUNTRY CAN STAND UNDER AND ONE THAT WE CAN RESPECT. SO YOU SAY PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE, BASICALLY? ABSOLUTELY. AND FUTURE, BASICALLY? ABSOLUTELY. DO YOU AGREE? LARGELY. I'D SAY A FLAG IS ABOUT UNITING ALL NZERS AND REPRESENTING US TO THE WORLD. ALL OF NZERS TO THE WORLD. THAT'S WHAT OUR NATIONAL FLAG IS MEANT TO DO, AND I DON'T FEEL THAT THE CURRENT ONE DOES, AND THAT'S WHAT OUR GROUP THINKS AS WELL. OK, WELL THIS IS ANZAC WEEKEND, ISN'T IT? AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE FIGHTING AND EVEN DYING UNDER THIS FLAG, AND YOU WANT TO THROW IT OUT? WELL, I THINK WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL HERE WHEN WE USE LANGUAGE LIKE 'THROW OUT.' WELL, CHANGE IT. GET RID OF IT. UNDER THE LEGISLATION THAT'S PROPOSED, THE CURRENT FLAG STAYS AS A HISTORIC FLAG. IT'S RECOGNISED SECTION 5A OF THE AMENDED ACT. YOU CAN GO AND READ THAT. SO IN FUTURE ANZAC DAYS, AND I'M SURE IN ANZAC DAY 2115 WE'LL STILL PROBABLY HAVE THE FLAG, WHICH IS NOW GOING TO BE CALLED THE 1902 FLAG THERE FOR COMMEMORATIONS. AND THAT'S NOT WITHOUT PRECEDENT. THE CANADIANS DO THAT. AT FINLEY RIDGE MEMORIAL THEY'VE GOT THEIR NEW FLAG WHICH THEY CHANGED IN 1965, PLUS THEIR OLDER RED ENSIGN FLAG. SO THERE IS A COMBINATION THERE, AND I UNDERSTAND WHERE THE RSA COMES FROM, THAT THEY DON'T WANT THAT HERITAGE DISRESPECTED. I DON'T WANT TO DISRESPECT ANY HERITAGE, BUT THIS IS ABOUT SIGNIFYING TO THE WORLD, WE'RE NZERS, AND WHERE WE'RE GOING TO. WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT THE CURRENT FLAG SAYS ABOUT US, THEN? OH, IT SAYS THAT WE'RE A BRITISH COLONY. IT IS A FLAG THAT CAME ABOUT AS A RESULT OF AN IMPERIAL MARITIME LAW PASSED IN 1865 IT'S DESIGNED BY A GUY WHO, AS FAR AS WE KNOW, NEVER VISITED NZ. HE WAS A SAILOR BASED IN SYDNEY. SENT A DESIGN TO THE GOVERNOR OF THE DAY AND SAID 'HERE YOU GO, I THINK THIS IS QUITE NICE.' AND THEN, OF COURSE, THE AUSTRALIANS COPIED IT WHEN THEY GOT THEIR OWN FLAG IN 1901. SO THEN WE HAD TO VERIFY THAT OUR FLAG WAS THE OFFICIAL ONE IN 1902. SO NOW, OF COURSE, WE'VE GOT A FLAG IN AUSTRALIA THAT LOOKS ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME AS OURS` LET'S BRING DAVID MOGER BACK IN, BECAUSE I SAW HIM PHYSICALLY RECOIL WHEN YOU SAID THAT. SO WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE? I THINK IT'S INTERESTING TO HEAR A COMMENT ON THE ONE HAND THAT THE FLAG IS ABOUT UNITING US, AND YET UNDER THE LEGISLATION WE'RE GONNA HAVE A HISTORIC FLAG AND A NEW FLAG. SO WHERE DO WE SIT WITH WHAT THAT FLAG MEANS? IT'S NOT WITHOUT PRECEDENT. WE'VE GOT THE UNITED TRIBES FLAG WHICH FLIES AT WAITANGI. THAT'S A FLAG THAT WAS ADOPTED IN 1835. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT THE CURRENT FLAG MEANS? I THINK WHAT THE CURRENT FLAG SYMBOLISES IS EVERYTHING ABOUT WHERE WE'VE COME FROM, EVERYTHING ABOUT WHERE WE ARE AND EVERYTHING THAT SYMBOLS WHERE WE WILL BE. SO FOR EXAMPLE, WE TALK ABOUT THE UNION JACK IN THE CORNER, AND THAT SEEMS TO BE THE FOCUS. BUT THE FACT IS THAT IS OUR COLONIAL HISTORY. THAT'S WHERE WE CAME FROM. BUT LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE OTHER ELEMENTS` NO, WELL, HANG ON A MINUTE. I JUST NEED TO STOP YOU THERE, COS NOT ALL OF US DID COME FROM THERE, DID WE? EXACTLY. NEED TO STOP YOU THERE, COS NOT ALL OF US DID COME FROM THERE, DID WE? EXACTLY. SO DOES IT REPRESENT EVERYBODY FAIRLY? AND EVEN NEW AND MAORI, WHO HAVE BEEN HERE` BUT THAT'S WHERE THE BEAUTY OF OUR CURRENT FLAG LIES. THE BLUE SYMBOLISES THE OCEAN THAT WE SIT IN. THAT IS THE OCEAN OVER WHICH MAORI TRIBES TRAVELLED TO SETTLE HERE, IT'S THE OCEAN OVER WHICH THE BRITISH TRAVELLED TO SETTLE HERE, AND IT'S THE OCEAN OVER WHICH EVERY NEW NZER TRAVELS TO SETTLE HERE. AND WE WILL NEVER MOVE FROM BEING IN THE OCEAN. IT'S A POSITION IN THE WORLD, AND THAT PART OF OUR FLAG IS TIMELESS. THIS ISN'T ABOUT A BRAND FOR NZ. THAT'S DIFFERENT. THIS IS ABOUT WHAT REPRESENTS US AS A NATION. SO, LEWIS, WE ALL CAME OVER THE OCEAN, AND IT REPRESENTS ALL OF US. OH, LOOK, THAT WAS NICE AND POETIC. BUT THE TRUTH IS THE REASON WHY THE FLAG'S BLUE IS BECAUSE OF MARITIME LAW. THE CANADIANS HAD A RED FLAG BECAUSE THE LAW AT THE TIME SAID YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A RED FLAG, AND THE BRITISH CHANGED IT IN 1865. SO, YOU KNOW, IF WE HAD A RED FLAG WE'D BE ARGUING, OH, THAT'S PAPATUANUKU OR SOMETHING. BUT WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT MEANINGS AND SYMBOLISM CHANGE OVER TIME? ABSOLUTELY. BUT WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT MEANINGS AND SYMBOLISM CHANGE OVER TIME? ABSOLUTELY. SO THAT IT COULD HAVE A NEW MEANING FOR US. AS MR MOGER SAYS, IT MEANS SOMETHING ELSE NOW. YES, ABSOLUTELY, BUT THE FACT IS THAT IT IS STILL A FLAG THAT CAME ABOUT AS A RESULT OF NZ BEING A COLONY. WE'RE NOT A COLONY ANY MORE. WE'RE A DIVERSE NATION IN THE 21ST CENTURY WHO IS INDEPENDENT. WE'VE DONE SO MUCH SINCE THAT FLAG CAME ABOUT. WE'VE HAD PEOPLE CLIMB MT EVEREST, WE'VE PRODUCED WORLD-LEADING SCIENTISTS WHO'VE SPLIT THE ATOM, DISPOSABLE SYRINGES, DNA, ALL THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. WE ARE A COUNTRY IN OUR OWN RIGHT NOW. AND AS YOU MENTIONED, WE ARE A VERY DIVERSE COUNTRY TOO, AND THAT FLAG NEEDS TO SYMBOLISE THAT. AND THAT'S WHAT OUR FLAG DOES, BECAUSE HISTORY IS ADDED MOMENT BY MOMENT. ALL THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN OUR COUNTRY IN THE PAST HUNDRED OR SO YEARS HAVE HAPPENED UNDER THAT FLAG. YOU OPEN THE LATEST AIR NZ KORU MAGAZINE, IN THERE THEY'RE CELEBRATING 75 YEARS. THERE'S A PICTURE OF THE FIRST 747 THAT LANDED IN AUCKLAND. WHAT'S IT GOT ON IT? OUR FLAG. SIR EDMUND ` WHAT FLAG DID HE HAVE WHEN HE CLIMBED` UNION JACK. IT WAS A UNION JACK. IT WASN'T A NZ FLAG. BUT THAT'S PART OF OUR HISTORY THAT ADDS INTO THAT PIECE. MR MOGER` YOU'RE RE-WRITING HISTORY THERE A LITTLE BIT. THE POINT THERE, MR MOGER, IS THAT BECAUSE WE'VE HAD THESE HISTORIC MOMENTS UNDER THIS FLAG, ARE YOU SAYING THAT WE COULD NEVER CHANGE OUR FLAG AT ALL, EVER? BECAUSE WE FOUGHT UNDER IT AT WAR, WE DID THESE THINGS UNDER IT, SO NEVER? THERE'S NEVER A TIME TO CHANGE IT? AND WHAT'S THE COMPELLING REASON FOR CHANGE? WELL, LET'S ASK LEWIS HOLDEN. WHAT'S THE COMPELLING REASON FOR CHANGE? THE COMPELLING REASON FOR CHANGE IS THAT WE ARE NOW AN INDEPENDENT NATION IN OUR OWN RIGHT, WE ARE A DIVERSE COUNTRY AND WE NEED A FLAG THAT REPRESENTS US TO THE WORLD, THAT UNITES ALL NZERS BEHIND IT. UNFORTUNATELY THE CURRENT FLAG JUST DOES NOT DO THAT. I COULDN'T DISAGREE MORE, BECAUSE ACTUALLY THE VAST MAJORITY OF NZERS SAY THAT OUR CURRENT FLAG REPRESENTS WHO WE ARE AND DON'T WANT TO SEE A CHANGE, BECAUSE THEY RECOGNISE THAT IT DOES REPRESENT OUR HISTORY, AND THAT CAN NEVER CHANGE. WE'RE MATURE ENOUGH AS A NATION TO ACCEPT THAT THE BRITISH COLONISED THIS COUNTRY. WE'RE MATURE ENOUGH TO ACCEPT THAT THAT'S PART OF WHERE WE'VE BEEN AND BE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD FROM THERE. WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, BUT I WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU ON THE SUBMISSIONS PROCESS CLOSED THIS WEEK ON THE PROCESS THAT WILL BE USED TO DETERMINE IF WE CHANGE THE FLAG. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE TIMING? IS IT DISRESPECTFUL IN ANY WAY? THE WORD I'M USING IS INSENSITIVE. THE FACT THAT THIS MORNING AS I STOOD THERE AT THE AUCKLAND CENOTAPH LOOKING UP AT A FLAG AS DAWN BROKE ON THE CENTENARY COMMEMORATIONS, AND IT'S OUR CURRENT FLAG, THAT THAT FLAG HAS A DEGREE OF THREAT OVER IT OVER IT I FEEL IS VERY INSENSITIVE. WHAT DO YOU THINK? LOOK, IT'S THE 175TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI, SO WE'VE GOT 175 YEARS NOW SINCE WE BECAME A BRITISH COLONY. IT'S NOW TIME FOR US TO SAY WE'RE AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY IN THE 21ST CENTURY. AND THAT, I THINK, IS WHY WE SHOULD REALLY MAKE THIS MOVE NOW. THERE'S NEVER GOING TO BE A GOOD TIME TO HAVE THIS DEBATE. THERE'S NEVER GOING TO BE A TIME WHEN IT'S NEVER INSENSITIVE TO SOME PARTICULAR AREA OF NZ SOCIETY. BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WE'RE DOING IT NOW, WE'VE GOT TO GET AS MANY NZERS INVOLVED IN THIS DEBATE AS POSSIBLE SO THAT WE GET A WORLD-CLASS FLAG FOR NZ, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE DESERVE. AND WE'VE ALREADY GOT ONE, IS MY VIEW. AND THAT'S THE VIEW OF SO` THAT'S WHAT WE DESERVE. AND WE'VE ALREADY GOT ONE, IS MY VIEW. AND THAT'S THE VIEW OF SO` IT'S OFTEN CONFUSED WITH AUSTRALIA. BUT THAT'S` IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE AUSTRALIAN FLAG, AS YOU SAID, WE HAD OUR FLAG FIRST. BUT THAT'S` IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE WELL, THEY COPIED US LAST TIME. WE HAD OUR FLAG FIRST. BUT THAT'S` IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE WELL, THEY COPIED US LAST TIME. SO GO AND TRY IT OVER THERE. AND THE GREAT THING IS THAT EVERYONE WILL GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A SAY, SO THEY SHOULD TAKE IT, OBVIOUSLY, IN YOUR VIEW. TO HAVE A SAY, SO THEY SHOULD TAKE IT, OBVIOUSLY, IN YOUR VIEW. EXACTLY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DAVID MOGER AND LEWIS HOLDEN, FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. STILL TO COME ` OUR EXPERT PANEL AND ANIMATION NATION. BUT FIRST WE LOOK AT THE AFTERMATH OF ANOTHER OF THE LAST CENTURY'S TERRIBLE CONFLICTS, VIETNAM. BUFFALO SPRINGFIELD'S 'FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH' WELCOME BACK. AS WELL AS BEING 100 YEARS SINCE THE GALLIPOLI LANDINGS, 2015 ALSO MARKS THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF NZ'S ENTRY INTO THE VIETNAM WAR. IN 1965, THE PRIME MINISTER, KEITH HOLYOAKE, ANNOUNCED THAT WE WERE JOINING THE US-LED COALITION. THOUSANDS OF KIWIS WOULD SERVE THERE OVER THE NEXT SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS. AND THE SCARS OF THAT ILL-FATED CAMPAIGN, LIKE GALLIPOLI, REMAIN. OUR REPORTER TORBEN AKEL SAT DOWN WITH SOME THE VETERANS OF VIETNAM. JIMI HENDRIX'S 'ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER' IT DEFINED THE 1960S AND CHANGED THE WAY WE VIEW WAR. VIETNAM WAS WHERE AMERICA MET ITS MATCH, AND WE WERE THERE, FIGHTING BESIDE IT ` MORE THAN 3000 KIWI SOLDIERS, 37 OF WHOM LOST THEIR LIVES. LIKE THE WAR IN IRAQ WE'RE JOINING NOW, OUR DECISION TO COMMIT COMBAT FORCES TO SOUTH VIETNAM HALF A CENTURY AGO WAS PRECEDED BY A REQUEST FOR MILITARY ASSISTANCE FROM ITS GOVERNMENT AND PRESSURE FROM THE AMERICANS TOO. FIRST IN WAS A FOUR-GUN BATTERY OF ARTILLERY WITH 110 MEN. DENNIS DWANE WAS 23 AT THE TIME. WHEN WE LANDED, THERE WAS A WELCOMING PARTY. WE GOT THE GUNS` THE GUN OFF THE PLANE, AND THAT NIGHT, ABOUT MIDNIGHT, WE FIRED OUR FIRST ROUND. TWO MONTHS LATER CAME THEIR FIRST MAJOR OPERATION, SUPPORTING AUSSIE TROOPS. BUT EN ROUTE TO THE BATTLE ZONE, THE ENEMY STRUCK FIRST. A ROADSIDE BOMB EXPLODED, KILLING SERGEANT ALASTAIR DON AND BOMBARDIER ROBERT WHITE. BOTH FATHERS, BUT ALSO THE FIRST KIWI SOLDIERS TO DIE IN VIETNAM. YOU SUDDENLY REALISED YOU WERE IN A WAR, AND THAT'S PROBABLY THE FIRST TIME YOU FEEL A LITTLE BIT OF FEAR. THE GUNNERS THEN BECAME PART OF THE AUSTRALIAN TASKFORCE BASED AT NUI DAT AND RESPONSIBLE FOR A PROVINCE ROUGHLY THE SIZE OF STEWART ISLAND, WITH 100,000 PEOPLE AND AN ESTIMATED 5000 INSURGENTS. BARRY DREYER WAS A LIEUTENANT THERE AGED 21. THE PHYSICAL AND MENTAL DEMANDS WERE VERY HIGH. THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A SIX-HOUR PERIOD IN THE YEAR OR SO THAT I WAS THERE WHERE WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY FIRE THE GUNS. THE KIWIS PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN ONE OF AUSTRALIA'S MOST FAMOUS MILITARY ENGAGEMENTS, THE BATTLE OF LONG TAN. THERE WERE 80-ODD AUSTRALIANS AND MAYBE 2000 NORTH VIETNAMESE REGULARS FIGHTING THAT BATTLE. YOU CAN'T SAY THAT'S NOT A SERIOUS BATTLE. IN MID' 67, THE GUNNERS WERE JOINED BY A COMPANY OF 182 INFANTRY AND THEN A SECOND COMPANY SIX MONTHS LATER. AMONG THEM WAS PAUL BATTY, THEN AGED JUST 19. NONE OF OUR GUYS WERE CONSCRIPTS. EVERYONE WAS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY NOT TO GO IF THEY DIDN'T WANT TO. BUT IF YOU HAD OF DONE THAT, YOU KNOW, AS A SOLDIER, IF YOU WERE GOING TO MAKE A CAREER OF IT, THAT WOULD'VE BEEN YOUR LOT. YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER PROGRESSED. SOON AFTER HE ARRIVED, THE ENEMY LAUNCHED THE 1968 TET OFFENSIVE. OVER THE NEXT OF FIVE WEEKS, THREE KIWIS WERE KILLED AND 23 WOUNDED. MOST OF THE CONTACTS ARE VERY, VERY FLEETING. MAYBE FOUR OR FIVE VIETCONG AND ALL OVER IN USUALLY IN FIVE OR SIX MINUTES, AND EITHER THEY'VE GOT ONE OF YOURS, OR YOU'VE GOT ONE OF THEIRS. MORE KIWIS ON THE GROUND MEANT MANY MORE CASUALTIES. OFTEN A SINGLE MINE WOULD TAKE OUT THREE OR FOUR MEN. KEITH TAHU ARRIVED IN MID-1970, AGED 23. MINES WERE... THAT WAS MY BIGGEST WORRY ` MINES. AND WITH GOOD REASON TOO. HIS FIRST ENEMY CONTACT WAS ONE OF OUR COSTLIEST DAYS IN VIETNAM. TAHU AND OTHERS IN HIS PLATOON HAD COME ACROSS AN HIDDEN ENEMY CAMP. LANCE-CORPORAL CECIL FISK WAS LEAD SCOUT, AND PRIVATE SONNY JONES WAS ON MACHINE GUN WITH TAHU. PAUL BATTY WAS WITH THEM TOO. ALL OF A SUDDEN THERE'S JUST FIRE COMING FROM EVERYWHERE, ALL AROUND US, SO WE ALL HIT THE DECK, AND UNFORTUNATELY FOR CESS, WHERE HE HIT THE DECK, THEY'D BURIED AN OLD 105 SHELL. MAN, THERE WAS JUST THIS MASSIVE BANG. ALL I SAW, LOOKING UP, WAS CECIL FISK GOING UP IN THE AIR. HE WAS VERY VERY BADLY HURT. WELL, A BIT MORE THAN HURT. HE HAD BOTH HIS LEGS TAKEN OFF. AT THE SAME TIME, I REACHED TO PULL SONNY DOWN, AND ALL I SAW WAS THE SIDE OF HIS HEAD COME OUT. AND I'D RUPTURED BOTH OF MY EARDRUMS, SO I COULDN'T HEAR ANYTHING. AND THEN I JUST OPENED UP UNTIL I RAN OUT OF ROUNDS. I THINK THE GUN JUST JAMMED. I THOUGHT, 'THIS IS IT, I'M GONNA BE DEAD IN A FEW MINUTES.' OTHERS IN THE KIWI PATROL CAME TO THEIR AID, THOUGH, AND AFTER A FIVE-TO-10-MINUTE FIREFIGHT, THE ENEMY WITHDREW. DEAD WAS SONNY JONES; CESS FISK WAS MORTALLY WOUNDED, WITH FOUR OTHER SERIOUSLY HURT, INCLUDING BATTY. TAHU WAS WOUNDED IN THE LEG BUT BACK OUT ON PATROL WITHIN A MONTH. AFTER THAT FIRST CONTACT WE HAD, I NEVER HESITATED TO PULL A TRIGGER. THEIR OTHER SILENT ENEMY WAS THE HERBICIDE DUBBED AGENT ORANGE. USED TO KILL OFF VEGETATION SO THE ENEMY COULDN'T HIDE, IT WAS HIGHLY TOXIC TO HUMANS TOO. WE USED AGENT ORANGE QUITE REGULARLY ON THE GUN POSITION TO KILL THE GRASS. I PERSONALLY CAN'T REMEMBER EVER BEING SPRAYED, BUT I CAN DEFINITELY REMEMBER GOING THROUGH AREAS, YOU KNOW, WHERE ALL THE LEAVES HAD FALLEN OFF THE TREES. CANCER SEEMS TO BE THE BIGGEST KILLER AMONG VIETNAM VETERANS. IN 2006, THE GOVERNMENT SETTLED A $30 MILLION COMPENSATION PACKAGE FOR VETERANS AND THEIR FAMILIES AFFECTED BY AGENT ORANGE. THEIR RANKS HAVE ALSO BEEN PLAGUED BY MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND REMORSE OVER THEIR IMPACT ON THE VIETNAMESE. OUR KILL RATIO WAS SOMETHING LIKE 30 TO ONE, SO THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES JUST THROUGH THE NZERS BEING DEPLOYED IN THAT AREA, AND IT WOULD'VE IMPACTED ON THEIR FAMILIES JUST THE WAY IT IMPACTS ON OUR GUYS. # HE HONORE, # HE KORORIA. # IN WAIMA, NEAR KAIKOHE, LIES PRIVATE HOROMAI KENNETH HARDING, THE LAST KIWI SOLDIER TO DIE IN VIETNAM. WHEN MY BROTHER DIED, I MISSED HIM FOR SO MANY YEARS. IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO GET OVER IT. THE DAY HE LEFT TO GO TO VIETNAM, HE CAME AND SAW ME. WE CRIED. WE JUST CRIED. NOW I REALISED I KNEW THAT I WOULD NEVER SEE HIM ALIVE AGAIN. NO REIRA, MOE, MOE, TAKU TEINA. MOE, MOE, MOE MAI RA. HARDING'S SIBLINGS SAY IT'S THOSE LEFT BEHIND WHO UNDERSTAND THE LONG-TERM COST OF WAR. AFTER THOSE FIRST WORLD WAR AND THE SECOND WORLD WAR, YOU KNOW, WE LOST GENERATIONS OF MAORI WHO WOULD'VE BEEN OUR ELDERS NOW, BUT THEY'RE NOT HERE. AND YOU UNDERSTAND THE SORROW THAT GRABS THE WHOLE COMMUNITY. THEIR FAMILIES DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICE. THE MAN DECIDES TO GO TO WAR, AND OFF THEY GO. WHY DO WE HAVE TO FOLLOW OTHER COUNTRIES, TO ME, IS THE QUESTION MARK. THE ANSWER TO WHICH, OF COURSE, LIES WITH THE POLITICIANS, WHO, SELDOM, IF EVER, HAVE TO FACE THE BULLETS AND BOMBS THEMSELVES. OUR PANEL JOINS US AFTER THE BREAK TO DEBATE THE POLITICAL WEEK, BUT FIRST, THE NATION'S OWN ANIMATION GURU, JEREMY JONES, TELLS A VERY PERSONAL ANZAC STORY ` THAT OF HIS GRANDFATHER GWYLLMN JONES VOICED BY JEREMY'S OWN 6-YEAR-OLD SON, WITH MUSIC COMPOSED BY GWYLLMN HIMSELF. I'M NICO LLEWELYN-JONES, AND I WANT TO TELL YOU A STORY ABOUT MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER GWYLLMN HOPKIN LLEWELLYN-JONES. A YOUNG MAN OF JUST 20 YEARS, HE WENT TO FIGHT WITH THE ANZACS AT GALLIPOLI. HE TOOK HIS VIOLIN TO PLAY FOR HIS COMRADES. REACHING GALLIPOLI, THEY STEPPED ON TO THE SHORE TO A HAIL OF TURK FIRE. THEY SCRAMBLED TO THE FACE THEN MADE THEIR WAY UP THE FOOTHILLS. BUT FACING A DETERMINED ENEMY IN THE TERRAIN, THEY MADE LITTLE PROGRESS. THE DAYS TURNED TO WEEKS AND THEN TO MONTHS. ON ONE DESPERATE PUSH, THE ANZACS WERE CAUGHT IN HEAVY FIRE. WITH DEATH AND DYING SOLDIERS AROUND HIM, MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER PICKED UP HIS VIOLIN TO COMFORT THOSE FALLEN. HE BEGAN TO PRAY, AND IT SEEMED AT LEAST FOR A MOMENT THAT THE WAR WAS SILENT. GUNSHOT HIS VIOLIN WAS SHOT FROM HIS GRASP, AND HE LAY WOUNDED ON THE HILLS OF GALLIPOLI. BUT HE WAS LUCKY. GWYLLMN WAS RESCUED AND TRANSPORTED TO EGYPT TO RECOVER. AND THE MUSIC HE PLAYED AMIDST THE MAYHEM LEFT SUCH AN IMPRESSION WITH HIS COMRADES AND OFFICERS, THEY CLUBBED TOGETHER AND HONOURED GWYLLMN HOPKIN LLEWELYN JONES WITH A NEW VIOLIN. WELCOME BACK, AND A WARM WELCOME TO OUR PANEL TODAY ` FORMER GREEN PARTY CANDIDATE MARAMA DAVIDSON; METRO MAGAZINE EDITOR SIMON WILSON; AND PR CONSULTANT TRISH SHERSON. GOOD MORNING TO YOU ALL. CAN WE START WITH THE PONYTAIL INCIDENT, TRISH? WE HEARD THE PRIME MINISTER THERE BASICALLY SAYING HE FAILED TO READ THE SITUATION. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, COS HE KIND OF GOES ON TO MINIMISE IT STILL AS A PRANK. YOU KNOW, 'WE WERE HAVING FUN. IT WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING.' IS HE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY? WELL, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, PADDY OPENED UP AND GAVE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO BASICALLY SAY, 'YES, THAT'S RIGHT. 'MOST NZERS WILL THINK THIS IS A BIT OF FUN,' AND HE WASN'T GOING THERE AT ALL. HE WAS VERY CLEAR TO SAY, 'I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. I GOT IT WRONG, ETC.' AND THE THING I THOUGHT THIS WEEK IS HE OBVIOUSLY TERRIBLY MISREAD THE SITUATION, AND THERE'S NO EXCUSE FOR THAT. BUT IF HE IS INDEED THE SEXIST PIG THAT HE'S BEEN MADE OUT TO BE THIS WEEK, WHEN BRONAGH GOT HOME AND SAID TO HIM, 'JOHN, YOU'VE BEEN A DICK,' HE WOULD HAVE SIMPLY LIFTED UP HIS PAPER AND CALLED FOR HIS PIPE AND SLIPPERS. HE CERTAINLY WOULDN'T HAVE WHIPPED ROUND WITH A COUPLE OF BOTTLES OF WINE, AND I DOUBT THERE ARE MANY LEADERS OF HIS KIND OF POSITION WHO WOULD DO THAT. IS A COUPLE OF BOTTLES OF WINES TAKING RESPONSIBILITY? WELL, I THINK THE THING THAT'S REALLY PECULIAR ABOUT THIS IS NOT THAT HE RECOGNISED HE DID SOMETHING WRONG AND TRIED TO ATONE FOR IT, BECAUSE YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT. JOHN KEY DOES TRY HARD TO LEARN FROM HIS MISTAKES. IT'S THAT HE MADE THE MISTAKE. ALTHOUGH, TRISH, YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT ` HE DID NOT WANT TO GO TO IT'S JUST A SILLY LITTLE THING AT THE START OF THE INTERVIEW. HE DID THEN GO INTO THAT MODE. HE STARTED SAYING THINGS LIKE, 'YOU KNOW, WE WERE JUST MUCKING AROUND, HAVING A BIT OF FUN.' HE SAID MOST OF THE OTHER STAFF THERE` ...ENJOYED IT. MOST OF THE OTHER STAFF, HE THOUGHT, THOUGHT IT WAS FUN. HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT PULLING PEOPLE'S HAIR IS SOMETHING 10-YEAR-OLD BOYS WHO HAVE NO OTHER WAY OF EXPRESSING AFFECTION FOR THE GIRLS THEY KNOW` THEY'RE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO DO IT. HE DIDN'T GET THAT, AND HE DOESN'T GET OR DIDN'T GET THAT WHEN YOU'RE THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE PEOPLE IN THE CAFE YOU'RE WITH ARE LAUGHING AT YOUR JOKES AND BEING NICE TO YOU AND FRIENDLY, IT'S NOT ACTUALLY A NORMAL THING. THEY ARE DEFERRING TO YOU AS THE PRIME MINISTER. THE POWER THING, ISN'T IT, MARAMA? A POWER IMBALANCE I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN JOHN KEY ACKNOWLEDGE. HE'S CLAIMING IGNORANCE THAT HIS POSITION HAD NO INFLUENCE ON HIS ACTIONS. BUT HARASSMENT IN THE WORKPLACE AND IN THE HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY IS A BIG, BIG PROBLEM. SO THE FACT THAT HE'S GOT NO FILTER. HE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT KEEPING HER SPACE SAFE AT ALL. WOULD HE HAVE DONE THE SAME IF IT WERE A YOUNG MAN IN THE HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY IN THE CAFE? WOULD HE HAVE JUST FELT A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT TO GO AND TUG PONYTAILS? HE ACTUALLY SAID IT WAS THE OPPOSITE, DIDN'T HE? HE SAID HE HADN'T TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THE POWER IMBALANCE. HE SAID IT WAS THE OPPOSITE, BECAUSE HE'D PLAYED THINGS DOWN. HE WAS HAVING SOME JOKES. AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE I'D LIKE TO SEE HIM` YOU KNOW, HE'S TRYING TO SORT OF GET AROUND ACKNOWLEDGING THE POWER IMBALANCE THING BY SAYING HE'S MADE A MISTAKE, YES. HE NEEDS TO STEP UP. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM IN OUR COUNTRY, AND HE NEEDS TO STEP UP AND ROLE MODEL THAT HE'S AWARE OF THAT POWER IMBALANCE. I THINK THERE'S AN INTERESTING POINT ABOUT, YOU KNOW` JOHN KEY, THE THING ABOUT HIM IS HE HAS ACTUALLY LITERALLY BROUGHT THE COMMON TOUCH TO LIFE, RIGHT? SO HE HAS LITERALLY LAID ON HANDS WHEREVER HE WENT. I CAN ACTUALLY SEE HIM IN A CAFE. YOU KNOW, IF IT WAS ONE OF THE WAITERS WITH A MAN BUN, YOU CAN IMAGINE JOHN KEY SORT OF` DO YOU? YOU CAN IMAGINE JOHN KEY SORT OF` DO YOU? YES, YES, I ABSOLUTELY COULD, AND I THINK THAT'S THE WAY HE HAS` I DON'T THINK NZERS DO, IN FACT, AND IF WE THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT HIS INFLUENCE IS POWERFUL, NOW WE HAVE THE MINISTER FOR WOMEN WHO, ALONG AS YOU'RE A SEXUAL OBJECT, SUPPORTING HIS ACTIONS. I WANT TO SAY, SIMON, HE'S KIND OF ALMOST SAYING THAT HE WAS UNDONE BY HIS OWN COOLNESS, IN A WAY, YOU KNOW? HE'S DOWN WITH THE YOUNG ONES, AND IT'S UNDONE HIM. THE THING THAT HAPPENS WITH POLITICIANS IS THAT WHEN THEY START TO RUN OUT OF STEAM, THE THING THAT HAS MADE THEM POPULAR BECOMES THE THING THAT MAKES THEM UNPOPULAR. AND JOHN KEY'S COMMON TOUCH IS TURNING OUT TO BE HIS UNDOING. WHAT IS HAPPENING` THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. AND WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE IS THAT A WHOLE LOT MORE NZERS NOW REALISE THAT HE IS MORTAL. THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE CAN'T RUN THE ECONOMY WELL. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'VE DISCONNECTED THEIR SUPPORT FOR HIM POLITICALLY, BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT THEY RECOGNISE THAT, ACTUALLY, HE'S NOT BEYOND THAT. BUT DON'T WE WANT OUR LEADERS TO BE REAL PEOPLE? THAT. BUT DON'T WE WANT OUR LEADERS TO BE REAL PEOPLE? BUT, TRISH, FROM A` REAL BUT REAL IN A MODERN WORLD. REAL PEOPLE ARE CONNECTED TO HARASSMENT BEING A MASSIVE ISSUE, THOUGH. REAL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS. WHEN I WAS AT THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION, YOUNG WOMEN IN PARTICULAR WOULD JUST LEAVE THEIR JOBS AND NOT REPORT HARASSMENT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT THEY HAD A RIGHT TO A SAFE WORKPLACE. THAT'S WHAT REAL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND. IN MY OFFICE` THERE ARE OVER 300 PEOPLE IN MY BUILDING, AND PROBABLY 80% OF THEM ARE WOMEN, EVERYBODY THERE` ALL THE WOMEN THERE HAVE STORIES ABOUT WHEN THEY WERE WAITRESSES WHEN THEY WERE YOUNGER, AND IT'S APPALLING TO MANY OF THEM THAT THE PRIME MINISTER THINKS HE CAN BE LIKE THAT TOO. WHAT ABOUT BRAND KEY, TRISH? HAS IT PUT A LITTLE CHINK IN THE ARMOUR? WELL, THERE'S A GREAT SAYING ABOUT FOR POLITICIANS, THESE KIND OF ISSUES, THEY LOSE A LITTLE MORE TREAD OFF THE TYRES, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE. SO THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE THE UNDOING OF JOHN KEY, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS TO SUGGEST THAT SO THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE THE UNDOING OF JOHN KEY, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS TO SUGGEST THAT IT WOULD BE. SO THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE THE UNDOING OF JOHN KEY, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS TO SUGGEST THAT IT WOULD BE. NOT ON ITS OWN, NO. BUT I DO THINK IT'S A LITTLE MORE TREAD OFF HIS TYRE. AND ALSO REMEMBERING HE IS NOW PRIME MINISTER IN A THIRD-TERM GOVERNMENT, SO THE SENTIMENT HAS CHANGED QUITE MARKEDLY, AND HE'S ALMOST GOING TO BE MARKED A LITTLE BIT TOUGHER BECAUSE HE IS NOW IN HIS THIRD TERM. AND AS I SAID BEFORE, NO ONE IS DENYING WHAT HE DID IS STUPID, INAPPROPRIATE. AND HE GETS HIMSELF, I THINK, THAT HE WAS BEING A DICK, BUT I DO WONDER IF WE ARE LIVING NOW IN SUCH A CONSTANT STATE OF OUTRAGE, WE'VE LOST THE ABILITY TO GAUGE WHEN SOMETHING IS TRULY OUTRAGEOUS. I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE UNDERSTANDABLY ANNOYED THAT WE'RE EVEN FOCUSING ON THIS SUBJECT. I'M ANNOYED THAT HE'S STILL DOING THIS SORT OF STUFF, THIS SCHOOLBOY, SCHOOLYARD STUFF. THAT'S WHAT I'M ANNOYED ABOUT. BUT THE FACT IS IT HAS HAPPENED, AND WE JUST NEED TO BE CLEAR ` HARASSMENT IS NOT GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY OR OUR COMMUNITY. OK, WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING VERY SERIOUS, THEN. OUR ECONOMY AND BEHEADINGS. HE IS ON HIS WAY TO SAUDI ARABIA AND OBVIOUSLY THAT PART OF THE WORLD WHERE THERE ARE STATE-SANCTIONED BEHEADINGS. NOW, THE PRIME MINISTER'S INDICATED THAT HE MIGHT BRING UP THE HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD, BUT HE'S NOT 100% SURE. IT'S NOT EVEN THE STATE-SANCTIONED BEHEADINGS AND HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD; SAUDI ARABIA HAS A ROLE OF STANDING BEHIND TERROR GROUPS EMANATING FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, FUNDING THEM, SUPPORTING THEM, WHICH HAS BEEN SO INSTRUMENTAL IN THE MODERN WORLD WE LIVE IN NOW. SAUDI ARABIA IS ONE OF THE COUNTRIES THAT MOST NEEDS TO BE CALLED TO ACCOUNT FOR SUPPORTING TERROR. BUT HE'S NOT SURE IF HE'S GONNA DO IT, BECAUSE HE HASN'T READ HIS TALKING POINTS. HOW BAD IS IT THAT SOMETHING AS SEVERE AS BEHEADING THAT HE MADE A BIG PERFORMANCE ABOUT IN THE HOUSE IN TERMS OF SENDING OUR SOLDIERS TO IRAQ. HE GOT ALL WHOOPSIE-DOODIE HUMAN-RIGHTSIE ABOUT THOSE BEHEADINGS. BUT IN THIS CASE, YOU KNOW, HE PROBABLY HAD THE TALKING POINTS FOR THE TRADE DEAL BUT NOTHING ABOUT THE BEHEADINGS. TRISH? BUT NOTHING ABOUT THE BEHEADINGS. TRISH? BUT IN TERMS ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, YOU NEVER SEE PRESIDENTS, PRIME MINISTERS, SECRETARIES OF STATE GOING INTO A COUNTRY WHERE THERE ARE DIFFERENCES ON HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES AND HAVING MEGAPHONE DIPLOMACY PRIOR TO GETTING THERE AND SAYING, 'YOU'RE SO TERRIBLE, AND I'M GOING TO RAISE THIS WITH YOU.' I MEAN, A LOT OF THESE DIPLOMATIC STATEMENTS ARE SO CAREFULLY WORDED, AND IT'S ALL BEHIND-THE-SCENES MANOEUVRINGS. I THINK HE MADE A SILLY COMMENT IN SAYING, 'I HAVEN'T READ MY TALKING POINTS,' AND HE WAS TRYING TO SLIP AROUND THE ISSUE, WHICH WAS THE WRONG THING TO DO. BUT I WOULDN'T HAVE EXPECTED HIM TO BE SHOUTING ABOUT THIS BEFORE HE GETS THERE. BUT THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT` THAT'S THE WHOLE FRAMING THAT HE GAVE US FOR SENDING OUR TROOPS TO IRAQ. IT WAS PINNING IT ON HIS IMPORTANCE AND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR HIM TO UPHOLD HUMAN RIGHTS. SO WHETHER OR NOT WE HAVE TO HAVE THESE DIPLOMATIC CONVERSATIONS IN TRADE IN THE RIGHT SPACE, HE TRIED TO PIN OUR WAR AND FRAME IT ON HIM UPHOLDING HUMAN RIGHTS. THE OTHER ISSUE THAT WAS RAISED THERE WAS IN TERMS OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND HELPING OUT IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WITH REFUGEES, WASN'T IT, SIMON? HE SAYS WE'VE GOT THE NUMBER PRETTY MUCH RIGHT AT 750. NO MOVEMENT THERE. THERE'S A DIFFICULT CONTRADICTION FOR HIM THERE, I THINK. IF HE SAYS WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE ANY MORE REFUGEES, IN THE TIME IN THE WORLD'S HISTORY WHERE THERE ARE MORE REFUGEES, SIGNIFICANTLY MORE REFUGEES, THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME WE'VE KNOWN ` TWO MILLION IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD OUT OF SYRIA ALONE ` IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE ANY MORE AT ALL, HE SAID IN THE INTERVIEW IT WOULDN'T MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE EVEN IF WE DID TAKE MORE, WELL, THAT ARGUMENT ISN'T APPLIED TO SENDING TROOPS. IT'S NOT THAT WE'RE GOING TO MAKE A MATERIAL DIFFERENCE TO THE WAR BUT SENDING TROOPS. THE SAME APPLIES ON THE REFUGEE FRONT. WE SHOULD BE PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE. WE SHOULD BE TAKING A SIGNIFICANT` WE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. BRIEFLY, ARE YOU BOTH`? WE SHOULD DO OUR FAIR SHARE, AND NZERS LIKE TO HELP, NO MATTER HOW SMALL. LOOK HOW WE HELPED WITH CYCLONE PAM. WE LIKE TO DO OUR FAIR SHARE. SMALL. LOOK HOW WE HELPED WITH CYCLONE PAM. WE LIKE TO DO OUR FAIR SHARE. AND WE'RE NOT DOING IT. YES, BUT THERE IS MASSIVE SUPPORT REQUIRED FOR THESE PEOPLE WHEN THEY GET INTO THE COUNTRY TO INTEGRATE THEM AND SUPPORT THEM PROPERLY. GET INTO THE COUNTRY TO INTEGRATE THEM AND SUPPORT THEM PROPERLY. WE'RE GOOD AT DOING THAT. YES, WE MIGHT BE GOOD AT DOING THAT, BUT I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO RECOGNISE THE RESOURCES THAT WE'VE GOT AVAILABLE. AND IT'S REALLY INTERESTING. WE'RE SAYING MORE REFUGEES, BUT IN A MINUTE WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT HOUSING AND OUR CONCERN ABOUT MORE MIGRANTS COMING INTO NZ. INDEED, WE ARE. WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE FOR THE MOMENT. COMING UP AFTER THE BREAK, WE'LL TALK MORE WITH OUR EXPERT PANEL AND TAKE A LOOK AT NEXT WEEK'S NEWS. YOU'RE BACK WITH THE NATION. IN OUR PANEL ` MARAMA DAVIDSON, TRISH SHERSON AND SIMON WILSON. MORE TALK AGAIN THIS WEEK, MARAMA, ABOUT HOUSING. RECORD IMMIGRATION NUMBERS, AND ALSO WE SAW THIS SOUTH ISLAND COMPANY THAT'S MARKETING ITSELF TO ASIAN BUYERS TO COME AND BUY RENTAL PROPERTIES HERE IN NZ. WHERE'S THE BALANCE? MY PAST THREE RENTAL HOMES, INCLUDING THE ONE I'M IN NOW, HAVE ALL BEEN OWNED BY FOREIGN OWNERS. I THINK WE DO NEED A BAN, AN IMMEDIATE BAN, ON FOREIGN, NON-RESIDENT BUYERS TO CURB THAT VERY DEMAND. I MEAN, I APPLIED FOR 20+ HOMES. I WASN'T A FAVOURABLE PICK OF THE CROP BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE A JOB AT THE TIME. THE ONE WE GOT, NO ONE ELSE WAS LINING UP FOR. THAT'S WHY I GOT IT. LET'S DO SOMETHING NOW. A BAN, SIMON? LINING UP FOR. THAT'S WHY I GOT IT. LET'S DO SOMETHING NOW. A BAN, SIMON? NO, I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE KEY TO IT. THE KEY TO IT IS IF YOU CAN MAKE MONEY OUT OF PROPERTY, YOU SHOULD BE TAXED ON IT. THE KEY TO IT IS IF YOU CAN MAKE YEP. I AGREE WITH THAT TOO. TAXED ON IT. THE KEY TO IT IS IF YOU CAN MAKE YEP. I AGREE WITH THAT TOO. SIMPLE AS THAT, TRISH? WELL, THE THING THAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT MOST IS OUR CONSTANT NEGATIVE FOCUS ON ASIAN INVESTMENT. NZ NEEDS TO BE ASIA-READY. LET'S REMEMBER THAT THE FLOW OF CAPITAL AND IDEAS AND PEOPLE INTO NZ IS A GOOD THING, AND IT'S GOING TO, OVER TIME, AS TREASURY HAS SAID, REDUCE OUR RELIANCE ON COMMODITIES. AND I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS COMING INTO NZ, THE MAJORITY, WHICH IS A GREAT THING, IS ACTUALLY NZERS COMING BACK HOME. OK. WELL, ON THIS WEEKEND WHEN WE'RE COMMEMORATING THE LANDINGS AT GALLIPOLI, TALKING TODAY ABOUT THE FLAG AND WHETHER WE SHOULD CHANGE IT OR NOT. JUST A QUICK WHIP-ROUND. WHAT DO YOU THINK, TRISH? ABSOLUTELY NOT. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME. SIMON? ABSOLUTELY NOT. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME. SIMON? NO, WE SHOULDN'T BE WASTING TOO MUCH TIME ON IT, BUT WE SHOULD BE DOING IT. WE SHOULD BE CHANGING IT BUT DON'T WASTE TOO MUCH TIME. WHAT ABOUT YOU, MARAMA? THE PM'S CALL IS A DISTRACTION AND A WASTE OF MONEY, BUT I THINK NZERS ARE READY TO HAVE A GOOD DEBATE ABOUT OUR IDENTITY. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE FLAG THAT WE'VE GOT? I AGREE. I AGREE, AND HAVING A FLAG MADE BY COMMITTEE IS A TERRIBLE THING, AND IMAGINE IF WE'D REDONE OUR FLAG IN THE '70S WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE NOW. IT MAY BE BETTER THAN NOW. DAVID MOGER SAID, WHO WAS THE CHAP FROM THE RSA, HE SAID THE FLAG IS EVERYTHING ABOUT WHERE WE COME FROM, EVERYTHING ABOUT WHO WE ARE NOW AND EVERYTHING ABOUT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE. THAT'S NONSENSE, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SAY IN TERMS OF EVERYTHING WE'RE GOING TO BE` WELL, HOW COME THE BLUE OCEAN CAN'T BE FOR EVERYONE, SIMON? BUT I WOULD HAVE THOUGH THE FLAG ITSELF FAILS THE TEST WITH THE` SOMEONE ELSE'S FLAG IN THE CORNER WITH THE COLONIAL REMINDER` FOR A COUNTRY THAT IS NOW INDEPENDENT AND HAS BEEN FOR A LONG LONG TIME, TO HAVE THAT IN THE CORNER, IT'S NOT WHO WE ARE. IT'S REALLY THAT SIMPLE. A FLAG THAT DOES EXPRESS WHO WE ARE, UM, SEEMS TO BE SURELY` HE BELIEVED THAT FLAG REPRESENTED EVERYBODY ` NEW NZERS AND MAORI. WHAT DO YOU THINK, MARAMA? I THINK THERE'S ENOUGH TALK OUT THERE TO SAY THAT WE ARE READY FOR SOMETHING THAT DOES REPRESENT US BETTER. I THINK, FOR THAT REASON, IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO GET IT AT LEAST TO THE SELECT COMMITTEE STAGE, AND LET'S HAVE THE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT BOTH THE PROCESS AND WHAT IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE. AND THAT PROCESS ` OBVIOUSLY SUBMISSIONS CLOSED THAT WEEK ON HOW THAT PROCESS WILL WORK. IS IT RIGHT THAT THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEEK THAT YOU'VE GOT ANZAC COMMEMORATIONS? THEY SEEMED TO THINK IT WAS DISRESPECTFUL. I REALLY DON'T HAVE A VIEW ON THAT EITHER WAY. I GUESS MY FEELING ABOUT THE FLAG IS AFTER ALL THESE MONTHS OF DEBATE, NO ONE HAS YET PROVEN TO ME WHY WE NEED TO CHANGE THE CURRENT FLAG. MIGHT BE HANGING OUT IN THE WRONG PLACE THERE, TRISH, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF TALK IN MY CIRCLES WHO HAVE COME UP WITH BRILLIANT IDEAS AND IDEAS AND PICTURES, I THINK, THAT NZERS COULD GRAB ON TO. SIMON? I THINK, THAT NZERS COULD GRAB ON TO. SIMON? ONE OF THINGS TRISH SAID, I THINK, IS AN ISSUE. WE MIGHT END UP WITH A TERRIBLE FLAG. WE WILL END UP WITH A FLAG THAT SOME PEOPLE THINK WILL BE TERRIBLE, AND SO, IN THAT SENSE, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE COMPLETELY UNITING EXERCISE THAT SOME PEOPLE HOPE FOR. BUT I DON'T THINK THAT MATTERS. I THINK IF WE ARE BRAVE ABOUT IT AND BOLD ABOUT IT AND ARE ABLE TO DEVELOP SOME VERY EXCITING DESIGNS, UM, I THINK THIS WILL BE AN EXERCISE WHERE THE TALKING ABOUT THE WHO WE ARE AS PEOPLE IS ALWAYS GOOD, ALWAYS VALUABLE. I DON'T THINK IT'S A DISTRACTION. I THINK IT'S A THING WE NEED TO BE DOING MORE OF IN THIS COUNTRY. WITH THE DESIGN, THOUGH, THE CONCERN I HAVE IS WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH SOMETHING YOU'RE WAVING IN A STADIUM FULL OF PEOPLE AT A SPORTS GAME. THIS IS ENSIGN, AND I THINK THERE'S BEEN QUITE A BIT OF CONFUSION ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A BRAND FOR A COUNTRY AND THE NATIONAL FLAG. AND THAT'S WHY THE NATIONAL FLAG CAN'T BE A SILVER FERN ON A BLACK BACKGROUND. THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT. I THINK THERE'S GENUINE FEAR FORM SOME NZERS THAT WHEN WE GIVE OUT, GIVE UP THE FLAG THAT WE'VE GOT, WE'RE GIVING UP A LOT OF OUR HISTORY TOGETHER, AND WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT. AND I'M NOT SUPPORTING THAT WE HAVE TO THROW AWAY WHERE WE'VE COME TO FROM NOW. BUT I THINK A NEW FLAG CAN ENCAPSULATE THAT AS WELL, GOING FORWARD. VERY BRIEFLY, COS WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME ` ANZAC COMMEMORATIONS OVER THE WEEKEND. HAVE WE GOT THE BALANCE RIGHT WITH REMEMBERING THIS? NOT GLORIFYING WAR; TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT OUR HISTORY. ARE WE IN THE RIGHT PLACE? I THINK IT'S BEEN FANTASTIC, IF NOTHING ELSE, BECAUSE IN A LOT OF HOMES AROUND NZ, PARENTS HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THEIR KIDS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AT GALLIPOLI. IN MY CASE, IT WAS MY GREAT-GRANDAD WHO WENT TO WAR IN EUROPE. I'VE HAULED OUT HIS POSTCARD THAT HE SENT HOME TO MY GREAT-GRANDMOTHER, TALKED TO THE KIDS ABOUT IT. AND THEY'VE ACTUALLY BEEN GENUINELY INTERESTED IN READING THE STORIES. SIMON? INTERESTED IN READING THE STORIES. SIMON? I THINK THAT'S LARGELY RIGHT. I THINK ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THIS IS THAT BECAUSE IT WAS A DEFEAT AND WE WERE DEFEATED BY PEOPLE DEFENDING THEIR HOMELAND FROM AGGRESSORS WHO HAD NO BUSINESS BEING THERE AND THEY DEFEATED US BECAUSE THEY WERE PREPARED TO DO THAT AND DIE IN FAR GREATER NUMBERS THAN OUR PEOPLE WERE AND DID SO ` 80,000 TURKISH DEAD ` BECAUSE OF THAT, IT ENABLES US TO ADOPT A RELATIVELY HUMBLE APPROACH TO THE WHOLE QUESTION OF WHAT IS IT TO BUILD A NATION, IN A WAY THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO DO IF WE WE'D WON THAT IMPERIAL BATTLE. OK, LAST WORD BRIEFLY TO MARAMA. AND, YOU KNOW, HE SAID, 'I DON'T THINK THERE WAS ANYONE THERE WHO IS PRO-WAR. 'WE WERE THERE TO REMEMBER PEOPLE AND UNDERSTAND THAT GOING FORWARD PEACE IS NOT ONLY THE END GOAL, 'BUT IT'S ALSO THE PATH.' AND, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT WHAT I'M WEARING. PEACE IS NOT ONLY THE END GOAL, 'BUT IT'S ALSO THE PATH.' AND, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT WHAT I'M WEARING. OK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WELL, THE PRIME MINISTER HEADS ON A TRADE MISSION TO THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, SAUDI ARABIA AND KUWAIT TODAY. AND IN THE REST OF THE WEEK'S NEWS, TUESDAY MARKS THE 20-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE CAVE CREEK DISASTER. ON THURSDAY, LABOUR LEADER ANDREW LITTLE WILL MEET THE INFLUENTIAL FRENCH ECONOMIST THOMAS PIKETTY IN PARIS. AND THE FINANCE MINISTER, BILL ENGLISH, WILL GIVE A PRE-BUDGET SPEECH ON FRIDAY. AND NEXT WEEK ` I'LL HEAD TO WELLINGTON TO SPEAK WITH BILL ENGLISH FOR HIS LAST INTERVIEW AHEAD OF THE BUDGET. WILL THE GOVERNMENT MANAGE TO LAND A 747 ON THE PINHEAD THAT IS SURPLUS? WE WILL FIND OUT. AND DON'T FORGET ` IF YOU'D LIKE TO SEE ANY OF OUR INTERVIEWS AGAIN ONLINE, YOU CAN GO TO OUR WEBSITE, THENATION.CO.NZ. BUT THAT'S IT FROM US TODAY. AND FROM ME AND THE REST OF THE NATION TEAM, PLEASE HAVE A SAFE AND ENJOYABLE ANZAC WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY ABLE. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015