GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO 'THE NATION'. I'M LISA OWEN. TODAY SERCO'S GLOBAL BOSS IN DAMAGE CONTROL. SOME OF THE ALLEGATIONS ARE VERY SERIOUS AND NEED TO BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY. RUPERT SOAMES TALKS ABOUT WHAT HE'S DOING TO OVERHAUL THE TROUBLE-PLAGUED MT EDEN PRISON, WHY IT MATTERS SO MUCH TO THE OUTSOURCING GIANT AND ITS FUTURE PLANS IN NZ. THEN ` THEY'RE SOME OF OUR MOST TROUBLED KIDS, YET BOTH HISTORIC AND CURRENT REPORTS THIS WEEK ON CHILDREN IN STATE CARE TELL OF LONG-STANDING FAILURE. WHAT PRICE ARE WE ALL PAYING, AND WHAT'S THE FIX? CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER RUSSELL WILLS AND JUDGE CAROLYN HENWOOD ARE LIVE. AND LATER ` THE REFUGEES DESPERATE TO GET TO EUROPE, BIG CORPORATES AVOIDING TAX, AND CLIMATE CHANGE. WE TALK TO HELEN CLARK ABOUT THE GLOBE'S BIG CHALLENGES AND WHETHER NZ'S DOING ENOUGH. PLUS, POLITICS IN 60 SECONDS AND OUR PANEL ` VERNON TAVA, DEBORAH MORRIS-TRAVERS AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015 IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOUR COMPANY THIS MORNING. YOU CAN JOIN IN THE DEBATE TODAY BY TEXTING 3330 FOR 50C, EMAILING THE NATION AT TV3. PLEASE DO INCLUDE YOUR NAME. OR WE'RE ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK ` @THENATIONTV3. AND, OF COURSE, OUR TWITTER PANEL IS ON #NATIONTV3. TODAY IT'S LAWYER GRAEME EDGLER AND ACTION STATION MANAGING DIRECTOR MARIANNE ELLIOTT. BUT IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT'S NO LONGER TRUE FOR TROUBLED OUTSOURCING GIANT SERCO. IT'S BEING INVESTIGATED OVER A RAFT OF ALLEGATIONS AT MT EDEN PRISON, INCLUDING FIGHT CLUBS, CONTRABAND AND UNDERREPORTING OF PRISONER VIOLENCE, AND LAST WEEK WE REVEALED THEIR INTEREST IN PROVIDING BACK-ROOM SERVICES TO THOSE BUYING STATE HOUSES. NOW, WE HAVE REPEATEDLY ASKED SERCO FOR AN INTERVIEW THIS YEAR, AND EACH TIME WE'VE BEEN TURNED DOWN, SO HEARING THAT THE GLOBAL CEO, RUPERT SOAMES, WAS IN NZ, WE DECIDED TO TRACK HIM DOWN INSTEAD. NOW, MR SOAMES HAD A VERY BUSY DAY YESTERDAY. HE TOLD ME HE MET WITH CORRECTIONS MINISTER SAM LOTU-IIGA, CORRECTIONS BOSS RAY SMITH AND THAT HE VISITED BOTH MT EDEN AND THE NEW SERCO-RUN PRISON AT WIRI. CLEARLY THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE FOR SERCO AND FOR MT EDEN PRISON, SO I WANT TO MAKE THAT WE ARE COOPERATING FULLY WITH ALL THE INVESTIGATIONS AND MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING ALL THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED. SOME OF THE ALLEGATIONS ARE VERY SERIOUS AND NEED TO BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU SHOULD KEEP YOUR CONTRACT? WELL, THAT WILL NOT BE FOR US TO DECIDE. IT'S GOING TO BE` CLEARLY, THERE'S AN INVESTIGATION GOING ON AT THE MOMENT. THERE ARE, IT HAS TO BE SAID, MANY GOOD THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED AT MT EDEN OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS. IF YOU GO AND LOOK AT THE RATE OF DRUG DEPENDENCY, IT IS FAR LOWER` BUT, MR SOAMES, WITH THE GREATEST OF RESPECT, THERE IS VIDEO CIRCULATING SHOWING SERIOUS FIGHT CLUBS AT THAT PRISON. A NUMBER OF OFFICERS HAVE BEEN STOOD DOWN IN RECENT TIMES FOR INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOUR. WHAT IS GOING ON THERE? WELL, THERE IS A FULL-SCALE INVESTIGATION GOING ON, BEING LED INDEPENDENTLY BY THE CHIEF INSPECTOR, OVERSEEN BY THE OMBUDSMAN, WITH WHICH WE ARE COOPERATING IN OURSELVES. WE ALSO HAVE OUR OWN INVESTIGATION GOING ON, AND WE TAKE THESE VERY SERIOUSLY. HOW CAN THE NZ TAXPAYER TRUST YOUR COMPANY? I SUGGEST WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN IS THAT WE LET THE INVESTIGATION RUN ITS COURSE. GIVEN THE BREADTH AND VOLUME OF ALLEGATIONS ` SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS ` INVOLVING MT EDEN PRISON, IT'S GOT TO BE ONE OF TWO THINGS, DOESN'T IT? IT'S GOT TO BE THAT THERE IS INCOMPETENCE IN THAT PRISON ON THE PART OF YOUR COMPANY, OR YOU'RE BEING WILFULLY BLIND AND YOUR EMPLOYEES HAVE BEEN WILFULLY BLIND? I DON'T THINK EITHER OF THOSE TWO CONCLUSIONS ARE THE CASE. WHAT I DO KNOW IS THE CASE IS THAT AS IS ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE WHEN SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS WHICH WE CARE ABOUT VERY MUCH, LET ME JUST` JUST REMIND OURSELVES OF THE FACTS, OK, IS THAT MT EDEN PRISON UNDER OUR OWNERSHIP` SORRY, OWNERSHIP IS THE WRONG WORD ` UNDER OUR DIRECTION OF MANAGING THE PRISON HAS GONE FROM BEING ONE OF THE WORST-RATED PRISONS IN NZ TO BEING ONE OF THE BEST. IT'S CERTAINLY NOT ONE OF THE BEST. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. OK, SO THERE ARE NOW QUESTIONS SAYING WHAT'S GOING ON? THERE'S SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS WHICH WE TAKE REALLY SERIOUSLY, WHICH IS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I'M HERE, AND THERE IS A PROPER INVESTIGATION GOING ON. SO HOW DOES YOUR STAFF`? AND THERE ARE` SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU, BUT THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. OF COURSE IT'S IMPORTANT. HOW COULD YOUR STAFF NOT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE WHEN PRISONERS SEEM TO HAVE BEEN WILLY-NILLY FILMING THEMSELVES IN FIGHT CLUBS, DEALING IN CONTRABAND, SMOKING AND DRINKING? HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN UNDER THE NOSE OF YOUR STAFF? WELL, IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN. THERE IS CONTRABAND IN PRISONS. I HAVE TO SAY THAT THE RATE OF CONTRABAND IN PRISONS IN MT EDEN IS ACTUALLY PRETTY LOW. YOU'RE TRYING TO JUSTIFY THE VIDEOS THAT WE'VE SEEN... I'M NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY` ...OR MINIMISE? BECAUSE THAT SORT OF SOUNDS LIKE THAT. (STAMMERS) I'M NOT TRYING TO MINIMISE IT IN THE SLIGHTEST AT ALL. THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I'VE COME HERE ` TO MAKE SURE THAT THE INVESTIGATIONS THAT THE CHIEF INSPECTOR AND THE OMBUDSMAN ARE DOING; THAT WE ARE FULLY COOPERATING WITH THEM. WE HAVE OUR OWN INVESTIGATIONS GOING ON. WE TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY. CAN I JUST SAY THAT WE DON'T FIRE PEOPLE ON THE BASIS OF ALLEGATIONS. YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHICH BIT OF THE MAGNA CARTA SAYS THAT YOU GO AND FIRE PEOPLE. YOU PROPERLY INVESTIGATE. THERE'S A PROFESSIONAL INVESTIGATION GOING ON TO SORT THOSE WHICH ARE WILD ALLEGATIONS FROM THOSE WHICH ARE TRUTHFUL ALLEGATIONS. THE MERE EXISTENCE OF THE VIDEO SHOWS... IT'S SHOCKING. YEAH. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT? OH, SHOCKING. TWO THINGS ARE SHOCKING. IT IS SHOCKING THAT FIGHTING IS GOING ON INSIDE THE PRISON. IT IS ALSO SHOCKING THAT THERE ARE MOBILE PHONES IN THE PRISON. I HAVE TO SAY I DON'T BELIEVE THAT MT EDEN IS THE ONLY PRISON IN NZ OR, INDEED, IN THE WORLD WHERE MOBILE PHONES ARE. BUT THAT IN OF ITSELF, THE EXISTENCE OF THE VIDEO, IN AND OF ITSELF, SHOWS THAT YOU'VE FAILED IN YOUR DUTIES TO PROPERLY MANAGE THAT PRISON, DOESN'T IT? BUT I HAVE TO SAY THAT WE LIVE IN A REAL WORLD HERE IN WHICH, LET ME TELL YOU, THAT YOU ARE GOING TO PUT A LOT OF OFTEN VERY VIOLENT MEN TOGETHER, THERE IS FIGHTING. I DON'T JUSTIFY IT. I DON'T CONDONE IT. I THINK THAT THE IDEA... I'M VERY WORRIED ABOUT THE IDEA OF THE EXISTENCE OF FIGHT CLUBS, AND, CLEARLY, THERE IS TOO MUCH VIOLENCE. IN FACT, IN MT EDEN THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE HAS IN THE PAST FEW YEARS IT HAS DROPPED A LOT. IT HAS NOW PICKED UP, AND ONE OF OUR ISSUES THERE IS TO FIND OUT WHY AND WHAT WE CAN DO, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING BETTER TO RUN THAT PRISON. YOU ASK WHO IS RESPONSIBLE. I AM RESPONSIBLE. I AM THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF SERCO, THEREFORE, THE BUCK STOPS WITH ME. BUT I WOULD SAY TO THE TAXPAYERS OF NZ IS THAT WHAT THE FACTS THAT WE KNOW SHOW, AND IT MAY TURN OUT THAT THE REPORTING HAS BEEN WRONG, THAT THERE IS SOMETHING GOING ON, IF THE REPORTING HAS BEEN CORRECT, THAT WHAT THE TAXPAYERS HAD IN NZ IS A SITUATION WHERE ONE OF THE WORST-RATED PRISONS HAS BECOME ONE OF THE BEST-RATED PRISONS. IT'S BEEN RATED EXCEPTIONAL. NOW, THERE MAY QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. AND IT HAS ALSO BEEN DONE AT A COST THAT IS SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER... I THINK THE THING IS, ALSO, OPPOSITION POLITICIANS HAVE SAID YOU'RE AT THE TOP OF THE LEAGUE TABLE BECAUSE YOU ARE COOKING THE BOOKS. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT ALLEGATION, BECAUSE IT'S A SERIOUS ONE? IT'S AN INCREDIBLY SERIOUS ALLEGATION. INCREDIBLY SERIOUS. I MEAN, THE CITIZENS OF NZ AND OUR CUSTOMERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPECT THAT THE NUMBERS AND THE ISSUES THAT WE ARE REPORTING TO THEM ARE CORRECT. NOW, WHEN I SAY CORRECT, I DON'T MEAN COMPLETELY ERROR-FREE, BUT WE HAVE BEEN PROPERLY REPORTING. CAN I REMIND YOU ALSO THAT SINCE WE'VE HAD THIS CONTRACT, WE'VE BEEN CLOSELY MONITORED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS. THERE ARE FOUR MONITORS ON SITE. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S OPERATING AND LYING TO ITSELF. I PERSONALLY` THAT'S WHY I WANT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THESE ALLEGATIONS. EITHER MT EDEN HAS IMPROVED GREATLY UNDER OUR OWNERSHIP, OR IT HASN'T. IF IT HAS, OK, THEN I THINK SERCO SHOULD BE SHOULD PRAISED AND SAY, 'WELL DONE, SERCO.' IF IT HASN'T, THEN WE WILL HAVE TO BEAR THE CONSEQUENCES OF IT. I'M COMPLETELY CLEAR ABOUT THIS, AND PEOPLE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO THAT WE ARE REPORTING WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON. WHAT LEVEL OF CONFIDENCE CAN YOU EXPRESS IN YOUR SENIOR STAFF AT THE PRISON? CAN YOU SAY YOU ARE 100% CONFIDENT THAT THE SENIOR STAFF IN YOUR PRISON HAVE BEHAVED APPROPRIATELY AND ADMINISTERED THE CONTRACT AS THEY SHOULD? LOOK, I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO SEE IS TO SEE THE RESULTS OF THE INVESTIGATIONS. STAFF ARE EXPERIENCED. THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS. BUT THESE ARE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS. SAYING THAT I HAVE CONFIDENCE OR NO CONFIDENCE DOESN'T ACTUALLY HELP ANYTHING. YOU CAN'T EXPRESS CONFIDENCE IN YOUR OWN SENIOR STAFF ` YOUR OWN SENIOR MANAGEMENT AT THE PRISON? I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE WAY THEY HAVE BEEN RUNNING THE PRISON, SUBJECT TO` WE NEED TO SEE THE RESULTS OF THESE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS. I HAVE TO SAY, PRISON ARE PLACES THAT ALLEGATIONS GET MADE ABOUT, AND QUITE RIGHTLY, THEY SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED PROPERLY, BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE THAT EACH ONE OF THEM IS TRUE. SERCO RUNS A LOT OF SERVICES OVERSEAS OUTSIDE OF PRISON SERVICES. SO WHAT INTEREST DO YOU HAVE IN EXPANDING THE SERVICES THAT YOU OFFER IN NZ? BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THE STATE HOUSING SITUATION. YES, AND OTHER OPPORTUNITIES HERE. WE ARE COMMITTED TO NZ. WE WISH TO BE GOOD CITIZENS HERE. WE ARE OFTEN` WE ARE ACTIVE IN THE AREA OF GOVERNMENT SERVICES, AND PART OF WHAT` THE REASON I WANT TO BE HERE IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE DEALING AND RESPONDING APPROPRIATELY HERE SO THAT IF THE GOVERNMENT, AT THE END, IS GOING TO GO, 'ACTUALLY, WE THINK YOU'VE DONE IT OK`' CAN I JUST SAY ONE THING THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN IS THAT WHATEVER COMES OUT OF THIS REPORT, THEY ARE GOING TO SHOW UP FAILINGS; THINGS THAT WE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER. I ABSOLUTELY KNOW THAT. WE ARE WORKING ALREADY TO GO AND IMPROVE WHAT WE DO. ARE YOU LOOKING AT YOUTH JUSTICE? NO. WE ARE LOOK` WE ARE LOOKING AT RAIL SERVICES IN PARTICULAR, AND ALSO OTHER OPPORTUNITIES, BUT WE'LL SEE. LET'S JUST GET THROUGH THIS THING, BECAUSE THERE IS AN ISSUE OF TRUST, AND WE HAVE TO GO AND SATISFY PEOPLE THAT WE HAVE RESPONDED CORRECTLY. OK. SO THANK YOU. I REALLY DO APPRECIATE YOUR FRANKNESS AND YOUR TIME. WELL, WE ASKED CORRECTIONS MINISTER SAM LOTU-IIGA ABOUT HIS MEETING WITH RUPERT SOAMES. IN A STATEMENT TO 'THE NATION', THE MINISTER TOLD US HE MET WITH MR SOAMES AT SOAMES' REQUEST. THE MINISTER SAYS HE'S NOT PREPARED TO GO INTO THE DETAILS OF THEIR TALKS, BUT HE DID SAY THIS, AND I'M QUOTING HIM HERE, 'MR SOAMES WILL HAVE LEFT WITH A CLEAR IDEA OF MY EXPECTATIONS 'AND THE EXPECTATIONS OF THE NZ PUBLIC ABOUT THE FUTURE PERFORMANCE OF HIS COMPANY 'AND UNDER NO ILLUSION ABOUT MY FEELINGS ON ITS PERFORMANCE SO FAR.' SO THAT WAS THE CORRECTIONS MINISTER. NOW, AS YOU WOULD EXPECT, WE'LL BE KEEPING ON TOP OF THIS STORY, AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING YOUR THOUGHTS AS WELL ON THIS. BUT COMING UP NEXT ` A DIFFERENT KIND OF SCANDAL ` THE WAY WE'RE FAILING TO LOOK AFTER SOME OF OUR MOST VULNERABLE CHILDREN AND WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT, WITH THE AUTHORS OF TWO STARKLY REVEALING REPORTS. THIS IS THE NATION, AND THIS WEEK WE SAW TWO REPORTS INTO HOW WELL WE'RE DOING WHEN IT COMES TO LOOKING AFTER CHILDREN IN STATE CARE ` ONE FOCUSING ON THE PAST 12 MONTHS, THE OTHER ON THE YEARS PRIOR TO 1992. BUT THE PROBLEMS IDENTIFIED WERE WORRYINGLY SIMILAR. TODAY AROUND 5000 KIDS ARE IN CARE ` VICTIMS AT A TENDER AGE ` AND IF THE CURRENT TRENDS CONTINUE, MANY OF THEM WILL GO ON TO BECOME PERPETRATORS BY THE TIME THEY GROW UP. SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE NUB OF THE PROBLEM AND THE SOLUTIONS WITH THE AUTHORS OF THOSE TWO REPORTS. JUDGE CAROLYN HENWOOD IS HERE IN THE STUDIO WITH ME, AND FROM HASTINGS I'M JOINED BY CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER RUSSELL WILLS. IF I CAN COME TO YOU FIRST, MR WILLS. CAN YOU JUST GIVE US THE HEADLINES OF YOUR REPORT? WHAT WERE THE TAKE-AWAYS FROM THAT? THERE WERE TWO MAJOR FINDINGS FROM OUR REPORT, LISA. THE FIRST ONE WAS THAT CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY HAVE FOCUSED MOST OF THEIR EFFORT AND ATTENTION ON WHAT WE CALL THE FRONT END, ENSURING CHILDREN THAT ARE AT IMMEDIATE RISK OF HARM ARE SAFE. AND THEY DO THAT WELL, AND WE WANT THEM TO MAINTAIN THAT. AFTER THAT, THOUGH, WHEN WE LOOKED AT CHILDREN IN THE CARE SYSTEM, PRACTICE WAS MUCH MORE VARIABLE, SO THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO SEE THE IMPROVEMENT. SO FOLLOW-THROUGH. WELL, THERE'S THREE ISSUES, REALLY. ONE, CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY HAVE HAD AN INCREASE IN WORKLOAD OF FOUR TIMES IN A DECADE, SO THERE AREN'T ENOUGH SOCIAL WORKERS. THEY DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO WORK WITH KIDS OF THIS COMPLEXITY. THEN THE SYSTEMS TO SUPPORT THAT PRACTICE JUST AREN'T THERE ` QUALITY SYSTEMS, SYSTEMS TO SHARE GOOD PRACTICE. IF WE CAN IMPROVE THOSE TWO THINGS AND MAKE OUR SYSTEM MORE CHILD-CENTRED, THEN WE'LL SEE IMPROVEMENT. JUDGE HENWOOD, YOUR REPORT LOOKED AT PROBLEMS WITH STATE CARE A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO ` FROM AT LEAST 20 YEARS AGO. BUT THESE REPORTS SEEM TO BE EERILY SIMILAR, DON'T THEY? YES, LISTENING TO RUSSELL THIS MORNING` GOOD MORNING, RUSSELL. NICE TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAMME. YES, WHAT HE'S SAYING ABOUT SYSTEMS STOOD OUT TO US AS AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM, BECAUSE THERE'S POLICY, AND THERE'S WHAT HAPPENS ON THE DAY. AND THERE SEEMED TO BE ` FROM THE 1100 PEOPLE THAT CAME FORWARD ` A HUGE GAP THERE. AND I REALLY THINK THAT NOT EVEN THE DUTY OF CARE IS ARTICULATED AS TO WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY TRYING TO DO ` A LACK OF CLARITY AROUND WHAT THE DEPARTMENT'S ROLE IS AND WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND HOW` WHAT DO THEY NEED IN ORDER TO DELIVER IT. THAT'S WHAT WE SAW. MR WILLS, DO YOU THINK IT'S AS BAD AS IT WAS? NO. WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS REAL FOCUS ON THE SHARP END, SO OVER THAT DECADE THERE HAS BEEN IMPROVED ATTENTION ON THE FRONT END, AND WE'RE PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY DO A GOOD JOB NOW AT MAKING SURE CHILDREN ARE SAFE FROM IMMEDIATE RISK OF HARM. WHAT WE WANT TO SEE IS THAT SAME FOCUS APPLIED ACROSS THE CARE SYSTEM. I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH ` WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE STILL STRUGGLING WITH THESE PROBLEMS, THOUGH, AFTER SO MANY YEARS? YOU GO FIRST, CAROLYN, AND I'LL FOLLOW YOU. WELL, I THINK THAT IT IS SOMETHING AROUND THIS LACK OF CLARITY OF WHAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY DOING AND HOW IT COULD BE DONE WELL, AND YOU HAVE TO REALISE THAT MAORI ARE CAUGHT UP AND ENTANGLED IN THE CARE SYSTEM. A LOT OF MAORI CHILDREN HAVE FLOWED INTO CARE, AND I DON'T THINK THE ENGAGEMENT WITH IWI IS AS STRONG AS IT COULD BE TO TRY AND GET LESS DAMAGING SOLUTIONS. BECAUSE EVERY TIME A CHILD GOES INTO CARE, THEY GET ALIENATED, LOSE IDENTITY, SWIRL AROUND IN MANY, MANY PLACEMENTS AND DON'T GO TO SCHOOL AND THEN SORT OF DRIFT ON INTO CRIME. AND SO I THINK` THAT'S AN AREA I'VE BEEN FOCUSING ON FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, AND WE NEED TO DO BETTER. RUSSELL? I COMPLETELY AGREE. THERE'S ALSO SOMETHING IN HERE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CHILD-CENTRED. THAT MEANS WE NEED TO LISTEN TO CHILDREN AND ASK THEM WHAT THEY NEED AND MAKE SURE THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON TOO. MANY OF THESE YOUNG PEOPLE TOLD US THEY SIMPLY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEIR PLAN WAS. THEY ASKED FOR SIMPLE THINGS LIKE TO BE ABLE TO SEE THEIR SIBLINGS, AND THAT HADN'T HAPPENED. AND WHEN THOSE KINDS OF THINGS HAPPEN, THEY START TO GET ALIENATED AND THEY MISBEHAVE, NOT SURPRISINGLY. SO WHEN WE LISTEN TO KIDS AND REALLY PUT THEIR NEEDS AT THE CENTRE OF OUR SYSTEM, THEN WE'LL SEE CHANGE. YOU MENTIONED CASELOADS THERE. SO, SIMPLY, DO WE HAVE ENOUGH SOCIAL WORKERS IN NZ? DO WE HAVE ENOUGH CAREGIVERS? NO, WE DON'T. WE DO NEED MORE STAFF. WE CERTAINLY NEED MORE CAREGIVERS, BUT EQUALLY IMPORTANT, THEY NEED TO HAVE THE RIGHT SKILLS. CURRENTLY, SOCIAL WORKERS TOLD US THAT THEY GRADUATED WITHOUT THE SKILLS THAT THEY NEED. CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY HAVE GOOD TRAINING BUT THE WORKLOAD IS SUCH, THAT THEY CAN'T GET TO THAT TRAINING. AND THEN THE SUPERVISION; THAT EXPERIENCED SOCIAL WORKER WHO CAN SIT DOWN WITH THEM AND HELP THEM TO THINK THROUGH A CASE AND MAKE REALLY INTELLIGENT DECISIONS, THAT SUPERVISION OFTEN WASN'T THERE CONSISTENTLY. WHEN YOU PUT ALL THAT TOGETHER, THEN THAT'S A RECIPE FOR INCONSISTENT PRACTICE, WHICH IS WHAT THE KIDS TOLD US HAPPENED. BUT IF YOU NEED MORE TRAINING AND YOU NEED MORE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, THEN THAT'S MORE MONEY, ISN'T IT? YOU NEED MORE MONEY. OF COURSE IT IS. THAT'S RIGHT, SO THAT'S WHY WE NEED THE BUSINESS CASE FROM THE MINISTER'S EXPERT PANEL. SHE'S GOT THAT DRAFT REPORT NOW. THERE WILL BE A FINAL BUSINESS CASE IN DECEMBER. I'VE NEVER YET SEEN A BUSINESS CASE THAT RECOMMENDED SPENDING LESS MONEY. BUT THE THING IS, THE MINISTER HAS SAID SHE DOESN'T JUST WANT TO THROW MONEY AT THIS PROBLEM, BUT SURELY THAT'S WHAT IT IS ABOUT, ISN'T IT? MORE MONEY. NO, IT'S... YES, WE NEED MORE INVESTMENT IN THOSE CHILDREN AND IN THOSE CAREGIVERS. THAT'S TRUE. WE ALSO NEED MORE INVESTMENT IN THAT TRAINING AND SUPPORT FOR CAREGIVERS AND FOR PROFESSIONALS. BUT THEN WE NEED TO SEE THOSE SYSTEMS. LISA, THE SYSTEMS TO IMPROVE QUALITY AND MEASURE OUTCOMES AND SHARE GOOD PRACTICE, THEY'RE NOT STRONG ENOUGH YET. WE DO ALL OF THOSE THINGS, NOT JUST SPENDING MONEY, BUT ALL OF THOSE THINGS, THEN WE'LL SEE CHANGE. JUDGE HENWOOD, WHAT ABOUT CAREGIVERS? BECAUSE BOTH REPORTS TALK ABOUT VIOLENCE AND ABUSE FROM CAREGIVERS AND FOSTER PARENTS. DO WE TAKE ON SOME PEOPLE, SOME CAREGIVERS, OUT OF DESPERATION, BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE WHO CAN TAKE THESE CHILDREN? YES, WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PROCESS IS NOW, BUT I KNOW THAT WE HEARD 877 PEOPLE COMPLAINED ABOUT THEIR PLACEMENT. THEY FELT COMPLETELY IN THE WRONG PLACE. IF IT WAS A MAORI PERSON, THEY WERE IN THE WRONG TRIBAL FOCUS OR` BUT I CAN'T COMMENT ON HOW THEY WORK IT OUT NOW, BUT IT SEEMED TO BE VERY RANDOM, AD HOC, BACK IN EARLIER TIMES. BUT ABOUT THE MONEY, I THINK THE MONEY IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. YOU NEED THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF MONEY TO DO THE JOB, AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER MONEY IS BEING USED TO MANAGE THE DEPARTMENT, OR WHETHER MONEY IS BEING USED TO PUT INTO THE CHILDREN. AND THAT'S A HARD QUESTION. IT'S NOT TRANSPARENT. WE DO NOT KNOW HOW THAT MONEY'S BEING SPENT. SO DO YOU THINK THERE'S NOT ENOUGH MONEY NOW? OF COURSE. THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ENOUGH MONEY. WELL, NOT THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF MONEY TO DELIVER WHAT IS NEEDED. THAT'S WHERE, I'M HOPING, PAULA REBSTOCK WILL MAKE IT MORE TRANSPARENT. BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A BIG DEPARTMENT THAT'S BEEN GOING FOR DECADES AND COSTS A LOT, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHERE ARE THEY SPENDING IT? RUSSELL WILLS, WE WERE TOLD, SOURCES HAVE TOLD US THAT AT A PARTICULAR POINT THIS WEEK IN AUCKLAND, THERE WAS NOWHERE TO PLACE A CHILD, NO CAREGIVERS AVAILABLE TO TAKE A CHILD IN, AND THAT SOCIAL WORKERS WERE IN TEARS BECAUSE THEY JUST DIDN'T KNOW WHERE TO TURN. SO DO WE NEED TO PAY CAREGIVERS SUBSTANTIALLY MORE, DO YOU THINK, TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE INTO THIS FIELD? CAREGIVING'S A TOUGH JOB, LISA. THESE ARE VERY DAMAGED KIDS, OFTEN. BUT WHAT CAREGIVERS TOLD US IS WHEN THEY'VE GOT GOOD TRAINING AND GOOD SUPPORT, THEY HANG IN THERE. THEY MAKE` THE SOCIAL WORKERS MAKE GOOD DECISIONS. THEY WRAP SUPPORTS LIKE CHILD AND ADOLESCENT MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES AROUND THOSE CAREGIVERS, AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS, THE KIDS COME RIGHT. THEY HEAL, AND THEY'RE TRANSFORMED, AND CAREGIVING CAN BE A WONDERFUL, SATISFYING THING TO DO, WHICH IS WHY CAREGIVERS KEEP COMING BACK. AND THEN THEY TELL THEIR FRIENDS, AND THEIR FRIENDS GIVE IT A GO AS WELL. BUT WHEN THAT SUPPORT'S NOT THERE, THE SITE DOESN'T HAVE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THOSE NGOS AND SERVICES THAT CAN WRAP AROUND CAREGIVERS, WHEN THE KID'S BEHAVIOUR ESCALATES, AND IT GETS A BIT WOBBLY, THEN THEY GET PULLED, AND PLACEMENTS CHANGE UNNECESSARILY. SO IT'S NOT` IT IS ABOUT FINANCIAL SUPPORT. OF COURSE IT IS. IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE OTHER SUPPORT THAT IS THERE FOR THOSE CAREGIVERS. SO, DO YOU NEED TO BUMP UP THAT FINANCIAL SUPPORT, THOUGH? WE NEED TO BUMP UP ALL OF THOSE SUPPORTS ` THE FINANCIAL SUPPORT, BUT ALSO THE SKILLED, PROFESSIONAL SUPPORT THAT'S THERE WITH THE CAREGIVERS SO THEY CAN HANG IN THERE, USE GOOD SKILLS TO HELP THOSE KIDS TO HEAL, AND TO, YOU KNOW, GET BETTER. I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS. THE POLITICAL TALK IS THAT YOUR CRITICAL REPORT WILL BE USED BY THE GOVERNMENT TO BRING IN MORE PRIVATE PROVIDERS. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S A GOOD IDEA? I READ THAT THIS MORNING. I DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE A VIEW ABOUT WHETHER IT'S PRIVATE OR PUBLIC. I THINK WHAT YOU'VE SEEN WITH THE SERCO EXPERIENCE IS THAT MONITORING OF PROVIDERS NEEDS TO BE REALLY GOOD. WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT THE SYSTEM TO MONITOR THOSE CHANGES NEEDS TO BE ROBUST SO THAT THE GOVERNMENT AND THE PUBLIC CAN HAVE THE CONFIDENCE THAT IT'S DOING THE RIGHT THING. BUT DO WE NEED THESE BIG CHANGES? BECAUSE TALKING TO PEOPLE WITHIN CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY, THEY TELL US THEY KNOW BEST PRACTICE. THEY KNOW WHERE THEY'RE FAILING. THEY JUST NEED THE LITTLE TWEAKS ` MORE PEOPLE, MORE RESOURCES. AND MORE TRAINING, AND MORE SUPPORT, AND BETTER QUALITY SYSTEMS AND SHARING OF INNOVATIONS. ALL OF THOSE THINGS. ALL RIGHT. JUDGE HENWOOD, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT IS THE PRICE OF ALL OF THIS? BECAUSE HOW MANY OF THEM END UP IN FRONT OF YOU? WELL, WE KNOW THAT AT THE MOMENT, OF THOSE THAT ARE 20 AND UNDER IN JAIL AT THE MOMENT, ABOUT 83% HAVE HAD CARE AND PROTECTION ISSUES. SO IT'S HUGE. WE CALL THEM THE CROSSOVER CHILDREN, THE CHILDREN THAT HAVE DRIFTED FROM THEIR CARE PLACEMENTS AND HAVE BEEN CHURNING AROUND IN THE SYSTEM, THEIR NEEDS NOT MET, AND THEY GO INTO CRIMINAL JUSTICE FOR A LIFETIME. AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT I REALLY THINK WE NEED TO BE MORE CLEAR ABOUT; A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS GOING ON, SO WE CAN` WE ONLY HAVE FOUR-PLUS MILLION PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND TO ME, I FEEL PASSIONATE, AND I THINK IT'S ALARMING, THAT WE HAVEN'T DONE THIS BETTER. WELL, THAT STATISTIC INDICATES THAT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE IN PRISON BECAUSE THE STATE DIDN'T CARE FOR THEM PROPERLY. WELL, NO, IT'S A MIX OF THINGS, ISN'T IT, BUT WE HOPE THAT WHEN THE CHILDREN ARE TAKEN BY THE STATE THAT THE STATE ARTICULATES A DUTY OF CARE AND DELIVERS ON THAT SO THAT THEIR LIFE IS IMPROVED, NOT THAT IT DETERIORATES TO SUCH AN EXTENT, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? I'M NOT SAYING THE STATE ALONE IS A FACTOR, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE BACKGROUND AND CONTEXT OF THAT CHILD IS IMPACTING, BUT THE STATE IS CERTAINLY IMPACTING. THEY'VE HAD A CHANCE. SO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS` YOU NEED A SEPARATE SYSTEM FOR THESE KIDS? VETERAN CARE? WELL, I WAS JUST REFLECTING ON THE ISSUES THAT RUSSELL RAISED. YOU'VE ALL YOUR EMERGENCY NOTIFICATIONS, AND YOU'VE GOT A CARE SYSTEM. AT THE MOMENT, I BELIEVE THE TWO THINGS ARE ALL ONE THING, AND THE SOCIAL WORKERS THAT WE HAVE NOW ARE TRYING TO MANAGE THE WHOLE THING. WHAT I THINK WOULD BE BETTER IS TO MOVE` HAVE A SEPARATE CARE SYSTEM WHERE IT'S GOT ITS OWN MANAGEMENT AND ITS OWN ACCOUNTABILITY. I MEAN, ACCOUNTABILITY IS SOMETHING THAT STOOD OUT FOR US. NO ONE'S ACCOUNTABLE. YOU CAN'T SUE. IF YOU TRY AND SUE` MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IS BEING SPENT ON STOPPING THE CASES IN THE COURTS. SO, YES, SEPARATE CARE SYSTEM THAT CAN THEN REPORT TO THE GOVERNMENT. AND MONITORING IS THE BIGGEST THING OF ALL. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING. THAT'S RUSSELL WILLS IN HASTINGS,... THANK YOU, LISA. ...AND THANK YOU TO JUDGE HENWOOD. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT, WELL, UP NEXT, THE UN'S THIRD-HIGHEST RANKING OFFICIAL, FORMER PRIME MINISTER HELEN CLARK, ON REFUGEES AND TAX AVOIDANCE. BUT FIRST, WE CROSS TO JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO FOR A SPECIAL FOREIGN CORRESPONDENTS' VERSION OF POLITICS IN 60 SECONDS. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK, PAUL ` WHY ARE YOU ON A LITTLE TV SCREEN, MATE? ACTUALLY, IT'S YOU THAT'S ON A LITTLE TV SCREEN, MATE. OH, IS IT? MM. HOW DO I LOOK? WELL, YOU'RE A PRETTY LITTLE THING. THANKS. YOU'RE WELCOME. WHERE ARE YOU? WELL, PAUL, I'M IN MELBOURNE, WHICH IS IN AUSTRALIA, A COUNTRY OUTSIDE NZ, AND I'M HERE FOR THE TTP. YOU MEAN THE TPP? NO, NO, TTP ` TRANS-TASMAN PISS-UP. OH RIGHT. I THOUGHT YOU HAD TO STAY IN NZ. (GROANS) AREN'T YOU ON HOME DETENTION AFTER, YOU KNOW, 'THE INCIDENT'? YEAH` SEE` I` NO, NO` I THINK THAT'S MORE OF A SUGGESTION, ISN'T IT? I MEAN, WHY ELSE WOULD THEY MAKE THE BRACELET SO EASY TO GET OFF? AH, GOOD POINT. IT IS A GOOD POINT. (SIGHS) IT'S PART OF MY PAID PARENTAL LEAVE ANYWAY. I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN, MATE. MY PARENTS PAID ME TO LEAVE AS WELL. YEAH, I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL. NEVER MIND. CHIN UP, MATE. WHY DON'T WE HAVE A BEER WHEN I GET HOME, EH? SURE. MEET YOU AT THE LOCAL PUB? WHAT TIME? OH, 5AM? PHEW, LATE ONE. (LAUGHS) NICE. WELCOME BACK. WELL, HELEN CLARK HAS A LOT ON HER PLATE. IF IT'S NOT URGING DEVELOPED COUNTRIES TO DO MORE ON CLIMATE CHANGE, IT'S HELPING PUSH THROUGH THE SUSTAINABLE-DEVELOPMENT GOALS ` THE UNITED NATIONS' BIG NEW SET OF GLOBAL TARGETS FOR THE NEXT 15 YEARS, REPLACING THE MILLENNIUM GOALS. BUT WHEN I SAT DOWN WITH THE UN DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME HEAD THIS PAST WEEK, WE STARTED BY TALKING ABOUT THE PICTURES OF THOUSANDS OF DESPERATE REFUGEES POURING INTO EUROPE BY TRAIN, MILE AFTER MILE ON FOOT AND BY BOAT. YET NOT ALL MAKE IT. IN RECENT DAYS, 200 DIED OFF THE COATS OF LIBYA, AND 71 SUFFOCATED IN THE BACK OF A TRUCK IN AUSTRIA. SO I ASKED HER, GIVEN WE'VE ALWAYS HAD WAR AND POVERTY, WHAT'S CHANGED IN RECENT MONTHS TO START THIS FLOOD. I THINK IT CAN BE EXPLAINED BY THE SCALE OF THE SYRIA CRISIS. YOU HAVE FOUR MILLION REFUGEES ` LARGER THAN THE NEIGHBOURING COUNTRIES ` BUT ONLY A SMALL FRACTION OF FOUR MILLION NEED TO START A DESPERATE, DANGEROUS JOURNEY FOR THAT TO BE VERY VERY LARGE NUMBERS. AS WELL AS THE 7.6 MILLION PEOPLE DISPLACED WITHIN SYRIA ITSELF. SO THEY START TO MOVE, THEN YOU HAVE A HUGELY MAGNIFIED CRISIS. AND THERE'S ALSO THE OTHER CONFLICTS THAT ARE FUELLING MIGRATION. FOR EXAMPLE, YEMEN IS IN A VERY DIFFICULT STATE AT THE MOMENT. AND THEN JUST PLAIN POVERTY ` PEOPLE COMING UP OUT OF THE SAHEL, OUT OF CENTRAL AFRICA AND LOOKING FOR A BETTER LIFE IN EUROPE. BUT THESE ARE HUGE NUMBERS. I THINK SOME OF THE UN FIGURES FOR TURKEY ALONE COULD BE UP TO WHAT, TWO AND A HALF MILLION PEOPLE THAT WILL HAVE ARRIVED IN TURKEY BY THE END OF THE YEAR. BUT DO YOU THINK THAT THOSE NUMBERS COULD BE EVEN WORSE? THEY COULD BE LARGER. THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO MILLION IN TURKEY NOW ` AT LEAST 1.75 MILLION SYRIANS AND ANOTHER QUARTER MILLION IRAQIS. AS I SAY, IF THINGS GOT EVEN WORSE WITHIN SYRIA AND MORE PEOPLE DECIDE TO CROSS THE BORDER, THEN IT WOULD BE VERY VERY DIFFICULT. THE SOLUTION, OF COURSE, IS A PEACE SETTLEMENT IN SYRIA. BUT WE DON'T SEE THAT ON THE HORIZON IN THE VERY COMPLICATED SITUATION AT THE MOMENT. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT DIPLOMACY MAY PRODUCE SOMETHING BETWEEN THE EXISTING GOVERNMENT AND ELEMENTS OF THE OPPOSITION. BUT THEN YOU STILL HAVE IS AND YOU STILL HAVE AL QAEDA-RELATED ELEMENTS. SO IF THERE'S NOT THAT SHORT-TERM SOLUTION ON THE HORIZON, WHAT DO THESE COUNTRIES DO WHEN THEY'RE FACED WITH THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE COMING IN ON A WEEKLY BASIS? ARE THEY COMPELLED TO LET THEM IN OR DO THEY TAKE, SAY, HUNGARY'S POINT OF VIEW AND START BUILDING A WALL? SO I THINK WE NEED A COMPREHENSIVE APPROACH HERE. FIRSTLY, IF THERE WAS MORE SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERNALLY DISPLACED WITHIN SYRIA, IF THERE WAS MORE SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IN THE NEIGHBOURING COUNTRIES, FEWER PEOPLE WOULD BE MAKING THE DESPERATE, DANGEROUS JOURNEY. SO THAT'S SOMETHING FOR THE DONOR COMMUNITY TO REFLECT ON. BUT THE UN IS ALSO CALLING FOR MORE COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTIONS WITHIN EUROPE ITSELF AT THE MOMENT. GERMANY AND SWEDEN ARE TAKING DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBERS OF THOSE COMING THROUGH. SO OTHERS NEED TO PULL THEIR WEIGHT TOO IN TERMS OF RECEIVING REFUGEES. SO WHEN YOU SAY THAT TURKEY ` THEY'RE LARGELY PAYING FOR THIS THEMSELVES, AREN'T THEY? $6.5 BILLION, I THINK, ARE SOME OF THE FIGURES. SO WHEN DOES THE SIGN GO UP THAT SAYS, 'NO ROOM LEFT AT THE INN FOR THESE COUNTRIES'? WELL, IT'S TOUGH. WHEN I WAS IN LEBANON IN SEPTEMBER LAST YEAR, THEY WERE SAYING THEN, 'WE WANT TO CLOSE THE BORDER.' THIS IS ALSO SAID IN JORDAN FROM TIME TO TIME, BECAUSE THEY'RE STRUGGLING. TAKE LEBANON, WHICH HAS A POPULATION OF AROUND THE SIZE OF NEW ZEALAND, WITH THEIR 4.2 MILLION POPULATION, THEY HAVE ANOTHER 1.2 MILLION REFUGEES. SO IF WE PUT OURSELVES IN THEIR SHOES OF 1.2 MILLION PEOPLE TURNED UP ON THEIR SHORES, WE WOULD BE SWEATING. LEBANON'S SWEATING. JORDAN'S SWEATING. EGYPT HAS WELL OVER 100,000. TURKEY HAS THE TWO MILLION. THE BURDEN` SO CAN THEY CLOSE THE DOOR? CAN THEY CLOSE THE DOOR AND SAY NO? WELL, THEY COULD TRY, BUT I RECALL A CONVERSATION I HAD IN JORDAN ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO, BEFORE THE NUMBERS WERE WHAT THEY ARE TODAY, OF A VERY SENIOR OFFICIAL, WHO SAID HE WENT TO THE BORDER AND LOOKED AT THE TIDE OF HUMANITY COMING OVER ` OLD PEOPLE STRUGGLING, OTHERS CARRYING THEIR CHILDREN, WOUNDED PEOPLE ` AND HE SAID, 'I SAID TO ONE OF THE ARMY OFFICERS WHO WAS WITH ME, "IF WE SHOULD CLOSE THE BORDER, WHAT COULD YOU DO?" HE SAID, 'WE CAN'T TURN THESE PEOPLE AWAY.' SO WHAT CAN THE REST OF THE WORLD DO, THEN, AND WHY AREN'T THEY STEPPING UP? IN THE LAST DECADE HUMANITARIAN RELIEF SPENDING HAS TRIPLED, AND IT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH. IT'S ALSO DRAINING MONEY FROM DAY-TO-DAY DEVELOPMENT IN THE STABLE BUT POOR COUNTRIES. SO WE HAVE A PROBLEM. AND I HOPE THAT PERHAPS THERE'LL BE A REFLECTION ABOUT INVESTING LONGER TERM IN WHAT MAKES FOR MORE PEACEFUL, MORE INCLUSIVE, STABLE SOCIETIES. THIS IS THE LONG-TERM ANSWER. IN THE SHORT TO MEDIUM TERM, PEACE IN SYRIA WOULD HELP ENORMOUSLY. BUT THAT'S NOT ABOUT TO HAPPEN. SO WHAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY CAN DO IS SUPPORT THE EFFORTS TO BUILD THE RESILIENCE OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD TO HOST THE LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE, THE SERVICES. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER TWO MILLION PEOPLE, THAT'S ANOTHER HOW MANY CHILDREN WANTING TO BE AT SCHOOL, HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE NEEDING HEALTH SERVICES, ENERGY SUPPLY, WATER SUPPLY. ENABLE THE DISPLACED AND AFFECTED WITHIN SYRIA TO COPE. IF WE COULD INVEST IN THE RESILIENCE OF PEOPLE IN THE AFFECTED AREAS OF TURKEY, IN LEBANON, IN JORDAN, IN SYRIA ITSELF, WE WOULD SEE THE REFUGEE FLOW COME DOWN. BUT YOU TALKED EARLIER ABOUT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY STEPPING UP. DOESN'T THAT MEAN ALSO TAKING MORE REFUGEES IN? OTHER COUNTRIES ` OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES ` ACCEPTING MORE REFUGEES? IT IS PART OF THE ANSWER, AND CERTAINLY FOR EUROPE, I THINK IF YOU'RE GERMANY AND SWEDEN AND TAKING SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS, YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT BURDEN ALSO SHARED MORE WIDELY. BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE SCALE OF THE ISSUES ` FOUR MILLION REFUGEES, 7.6 MILLION DISPLACED IN SYRIA ` IN THE END, IT'S GOING TO BE ABOUT HOW PEOPLE CAN BE SUPPORTED WHERE THEY ARE NOW RATHER THAN PROBABLY THE MUCH SMALLER NUMBERS WHO WOULD BE SETTLED IN THE WEST. HMM. BUT JOHN KEY MAKES THAT ARGUMENT. HE SAYS THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE DISPLACED, THERE'S NOT REALLY MUCH POINT IN NEW ZEALAND TAKING MORE REFUGEES. BUT WE TAKE 750 A YEAR. WE'RE WAY BELOW. WE'RE NEAR THE BOTTOM OF THE OECD IN TERMS OF NUMBER OF REFUGEES PER CAPITA. DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE STEPPING UP, TAKING MORE? WELL, IT WILL BE MORE THAN 750, BECAUSE THERE'S ALWAYS THE FAMILY REUNIFICATION AS WELL. BUT AS A BASELINE GROUP AT 750? AND IT'S BEEN THAT WAY FOR A LOT OF YEARS NOW, SINCE THE LATE '90S. BUT, OF COURSE, THERE ARE MANY MORE REFUGEES NOW THAN THERE WERE IN THE LATE '90S. YES. SO SHOULDN'T WE DO MORE? COULDN'T WE DO MORE? I MEAN, LOOK, EVERYBODY COULD DO MORE. BUT IN THE END, THAT'S NOT SOLVING THE BASIC PROBLEM. THE BASIC PROBLEM IS THE ONGOING CONFLICT IN SYRIA AND THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE HAVE SITTING IN CAMPS FOR A LONG TIME. BUT WHEN I WAS IN TURKEY IN APRIL AND WENT TO TWO OF THE REFUGEE CAMPS THERE, ONE FAMILY I SAT WITH IN A TENT, I ASKED, 'HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN HERE?' THREE AND A HALF YEARS SITTING IN A TENT. I CAN UNDERSTAND PEOPLE WANTING TO TRY AND BREAK OUT OF THAT. THAT'S HUMAN NATURE. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SUSTAINABLE-DEVELOPMENT GOALS NOW. PART OF THOSE GOALS THAT HAVE BEEN SET IS GETTING CORPORATES TO PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAX. SO DO THE BIG MULTINATIONALS NEED TO BROUGHT TO HEEL HERE? YES, PEOPLE SHOULD PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAX. AND THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WITH A LOT OF SUPPORT FROM THE OECD, GOOD WORK HAS BEEN DONE ON THIS BY THE G7 ` THE WORLD'S RICHEST CLUB OF BIG ECONOMIES, AND THE G20. SO THERE'S ACTION AT THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL. BUT THEN WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE CAPACITY OF DEVELOPING COUNTRIES TO ACTUALLY COLLECT THE MONEY AND TRACE WHAT IS THEIR DUE. UNDP HAS JUST FORMED A PARTNERSHIP WITH OECD AROUND TAX INSPECTORS WITHOUT BORDERS, WHERE TOGETHER WE WILL SUPPORT BRINGING IN TAX EXPERTS TO SIT ALONGSIDE DEVELOPING COUNTRY COUNTERPARTS SO THEY CAN TRACK THE TAX. BUT LET'S LOOK AT GOOGLE, FOR EXAMPLE. GOOGLE'S MOTTO IS, 'DON'T BE EVIL.' BUT ARE THEY BEING GOOD CORPORATE CITIZENS BY AVOIDING PAYING TAXES, PARTICULARLY IN POOR COUNTRIES? BECAUSE YOU HAVE SAID THAT THESE COUNTRIES ` THE BEST WAY FOR THEM TO GET AHEAD IS BY ENCOURAGING BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT, GETTING THE TAX, REINVESTING. AND WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE COMPANIES PAY TAX WHERE THEY MAKE THE REVENUE, FOR SURE. AND LET'S HOPE THAT WITH ALL THE ATTENTION THIS IS NOW GETTING ` OECD, G7, G20 ` WE CAN GET SOME ACTION ON IT. WE'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE TO BUILD THE CAPACITY OF NATIONAL TAX AUTHORITIES. SO THOSE BIG CORPORATES ` WOULD YOU BE CALLING ON THEM TO NOT JUST DO WHAT THEY ARE REQUIRED BY LAW, BUT TO MAKE THE RIGHT, MORAL AND ETHICAL CHOICES? I THINK THEY SHOULD PAY TAX WHERE THEY MAKE THE MONEY. THAT'S THE BASIC PRINCIPLE. LET'S MOVE ON TO CLIMATE CHANGE, THEN. YOU HAVE GIVEN A LECTURE THIS WEEK IN WHICH YOU SAY THAT THE COMMITMENTS FOR GREENHOUSE GAS REDUCTIONS MADE FOR PARIS WILL NOT ADD UP TO WHAT IS NEEDED. EVERY COUNTRY SEEMS TO HAVE A BUNCH OF REASONS AS TO WHY THEY CAN'T DO MORE. 'IT'S TOO COSTLY. IT'S UNFAIR. WE'RE DOING OUR BIT.' AS OUR FORMER HEAD OF TREASURY ONCE SAID, IT'S THE ARGUMENT, 'NOT ME, NOT NOW, NOT THIS WAY.' SO WE HAVE TO GET PAST THAT. LOOK, THE COMMITMENTS THAT COUNTRIES COLLECTIVELY ARE MAKING IN THE RUN-UP TO PARIS ARE NOT ENOUGH. THEY'RE NOT ENOUGH TO STOP THAT TIP-OVER POINT OF GLOBAL WARMING GOING ABOVE 2 DEGREES ABOVE THE PRE-INDUSTRIAL LEVELS. THE EU IS CALLING FOR MORE ACTION; THE UN'S CALLING FOR MORE ACTION. WE NEED PARIS TO BE A SUCCESS. WHETHER THINGS WILL ADD UP TO ENOUGH BY PARIS IS OBVIOUSLY A MOOT POINT. IF THEY DON'T, WE JUST HAVE TO KEEP AT IT TILL IT DOES ADD UP. SO THAT MEANS, DOESN'T IT, THAT DEVELOPED COUNTRIES LIKE NEW ZEALAND NEED TO DO MORE, NEED TO DO BETTER. EVERYONE NEEDS TO DO MORE, AND THERE IS A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY ON DEVELOPED COUNTRIES WHO HISTORICALLY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE STOCK OF CARBON IN THE ATMOSPHERE. BUT WE NEED EVERY ECONOMY TO ACT. WE NEED THE EMERGING ECONOMIES TO ACT AS WELL. INCLUDING NEW ZEALAND. WELL, WE NEED NEW ZEALAND TO ACT. WE NEED EVERYONE TO ACT. WE NEED CHINA TO ACT; WE NEED INDIA TO ACT. EVERYBODY HAS TO ACT. BUT YOU ALSO SAY THAT IT REQUIRES URGENT ACTION. SO ARE COUNTRIES LIKE NEW ZEALAND` IS NEW ZEALAND'S RESPONSE URGENT ENOUGH? WELL, I HAVEN'T LOOKED AT WHAT NEW ZEALAND HAS SAID ` THAT IT'S 'INTENDED NATIONALLY DETERMINED CONTRIBUTION' ` THAT'S THE JARGON` 30%. 30% REDUCTION. BUT OVERALL, THERE NEEDS TO BE A LIFT IN AMBITION. OTHERWISE THE WORLD'S POOREST PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SUFFER THE MOST FROM THIS. BUT WE ALL SUFFER. LOOK AT THE ERRATIC CLIMATE IN NEW ZEALAND NOW ` MUCH LESS PREDICTABLE. YOU HEAR THE SAME THING FROM THE KIWI FARMERS YOU HEAR FROM THE SMALLHOLDER IN AFRICA ` DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE RAIN'S GOING TO COME; HOW LONG THEY'LL BE; WHETHER THERE'LL BE A CLOUDBURST, WHETHER IT WILL BE CONSISTENT RAIN; WHEN DO YOU PLANT; DOES YOUR CROP GET RUINED? IT'S VERY VERY DIFFICULT FOR AGRICULTURE. SO PART OF THE UN'S GOALS ARE ALSO STRIVING FOR EQUALITY AND INCLUSION, REGARDLESS OF YOUR ETHNICITY. SO I'M WONDERING HOW COMFORTABLE ARE YOU WITH CHINESE PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND BEING SINGLED OUT FOR PURCHASING PROPERTY HERE. WELL, I LIKE TO OPERATE ON A PRINCIPLE THAT ETHNICITY IS NEVER A FACTOR AS A POLITICAL TARGET. I THINK THAT NEW ZEALAND IS A COUNTRY OF MANY, MANY PEOPLES, AND EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE TREATED ON AN EQUAL BASIS, WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THEIR ETHNICITY. SO ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH A CERTAIN ETHNICITY ` IN THIS CASE CHINESE ` BEING SINGLED OUT AS ADDING TO THE HOUSING PROBLEM BY PURCHASING PROPERTIES HERE? BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING SINGLED OUT BASED ON ETHNICITY. I AM NOT EVEN GOING INTO THAT DEBATE, BECAUSE I HAVE A POLICY OF NOT COMMENTING ON NEW ZEALAND POLITICAL ISSUES. BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY THE BASIS OF WHAT MAKES FOR HARMONIOUS LIVING IN NEW ZEALAND, WHICH IS NOT EVER TO DISCRIMINATE ON THE GROUNDS OF ETHNICITY. I'M NOT GOING TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THE SECRETARY GENERAL'S JOB, BUT CAN I ASK YOU WHAT QUALITIES YOU THINK THE NEXT PERSON WHO HOLDS THAT JOB SHOULD HAVE? WELL, NOT REALLY FOR ME TO SAY, BUT WHAT I KNOW THAT THE WORLD FACES HUGE CHALLENGES, AND WHEN THE WORLD FACES HUGE CHALLENGES, THE FIRST QUESTION USUALLY IS, 'WHAT'S THE UN GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?' SO IT HAS TO BE SOMEBODY WHO RELISHES A CHALLENGE AND HAS THE SKILLS TO TRY AND BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER TO FIND SOLUTIONS. I THINK THE PRESENT SECRETARY GENERAL HAS WORKED VERY HARD AT THAT. SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT, CLIMATE CHANGE HAVE BEEN HUGE ON HIS AGENDA. AND I THINK HIS LEGACY WILL BE THE SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS, AND I THINK A NEW CLIMATE AGREEMENT IN PARIS. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. WE DO APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. IT'S LOVELY TO HAVE YOU HERE. THANK YOU. WELCOME BACK. TIME TO CHECK IN WITH OUR PANEL. LAWYER AND ONE-TIME GREEN-PARTY LEADERSHIP CONTENDER VERNON TAVA, UNICEF NATIONAL ADVOCACY MANAGER AND FORMER NZ-FIRST MP DEBORAH MORRIS-TRAVERS AND NZ HERALD COLUMNIST FRAN O'SULLIVAN. WELL, WE HEARD FROM RUPERT SOAMES THERE WHO IS THE BIG BOSS OF SERCO. ALL CREDIT TO HIM FOR FRONTING UP AND ANSWERING SOME QUESTIONS. HE DIDN'T DASH OFF INTO THE LOBBY THERE. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF HIS PERFORMANCE? YEAH, I THINK IT'S REALLY GREAT THAT HE STOPPED AND SPOKE WITH YOU AND FRONTED UP. HE ANSWERED SOME HARD QUESTIONS FROM YOU. BUT FRANKLY I THINK WE NEED TO GET PAST THE IDEA THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE CORPORATES RUNNING WHAT SHOULD BE CORE PUBLIC SERVICES RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT. BUT WE DON'T NEED BUSINESSES REPLACING GOVERNMENT SERVICES, SO I WOULD URGE THAT WE FOCUS ON OUR GOVERNMENT DOING A GOOD JOB OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, HOUSING, JUSTICE AND CARE AND PROTECTION OF OUR CHILDREN AND ACTUALLY KEEP A STRONG SIGHT ON WHAT ARE THE OBLIGATIONS OF A GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF ITS DELIVERY OF PUBLIC GOOD. VERNON, HE WAS URGING PEOPLE THERE TO WAIT FOR THE OUTCOME OF THE INVESTIGATION AND SAID, YOU KNOW, 'WAIT TILL WE'VE GOT ALL THE FACTS.' THE GREENS THIS WEEK SAY, 'DON'T WAIT FOR A RESULT. GET RID OF THIS COMPANY NOW, LIKE AUSTRALIA DID.' MM. WELL, WE DO HAVE THE EXAMPLE IN WEST AUSTRALIA; WE'RE HALFWAY THROUGH AN ENQUIRY. THEY EVIDENTLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WAS SO CONCERNING THAT THEY ACTUALLY TERMINATED THE CONTRACT THEN AND THERE. BUT AS TO YOUR INTERVIEW WITH RUPERT SOAMES, I MEAN, YES, CREDIT TO HIM FOR ACTUALLY TALKING TO YOU AND FOR BEING REASONABLY CANDID AND FRANK. HE'S VERY CLEARLY ON THE BACK FOOT. THERE ARE SERIOUS CONCERNS WITH WHAT'S GOING ON, AND THINGS JUST KEEP COMING TO LIGHT, AND THEY ARE MORE AND MORE CONCERNING ` JUST THE SHEER VOLUME OF THINGS. I HAVE TO PICK UP ON ONE POINT HE SAID, WHICH IS THAT WE'RE AT THE TOP OF THE LEAGUE TABLES AS FAR AS PERFORMANCE, BUT, OF COURSE, THAT RELIES ON SERCO'S OWN REPORTING. SO WE KNOW THAT THE MONITORING ISN'T WHERE IT COULD BE. SO THEY MAY BE AT THE TOP OF THE LEAGUE TABLES, BUT IS THE REPORTING OF THE INCIDENTS ACTUALLY ACCURATE? BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN HEARING VERY CONCERNING ALLEGATIONS THROUGHOUT THE ENQUIRIES AND WHAT'S COMING TO LIGHT IS THAT THERE IS A DEFINITE CULTURE OF 'DON'T WRITE THINGS DOWN'. AND OBVIOUSLY THE OPPOSITION PARTIES HAVE BEEN RUNNING WITH THAT. FRAN, IS THIS JUST ABOUT THE PRISON CONTRACT? HE TURNS UP HERE FROM THE UK, THE BIG BOSS. IS IT ABOUT PROTECTING FUTURE PROSPECTS AS WELL FOR THEM? WELL, OH, CLEARLY. AND ALSO, AS YOU SAID, TRUST IS EVERYTHING, AND THEY DO HAVE A BIG ISSUE AT THE MOMENT. THIS IS A MAJOR PR DISASTER ` A REPUTATIONAL DISASTER FOR THEM ` PARTICULARLY COMING ON TOP OF WHAT'S HAPPENED IN AUSTRALIA AS WELL. SO THEY ARE CLEARLY A GLOBAL CONTRACTOR. THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THAT THEY HAVE A DECENT TRACK RECORD WHERE THEY GO. AND SO, YES, HE'S GOING TO WANT TO CLEAN THIS UP. AND HE'S GOING TO WANT TO CLEAN IT UP NOT ONLY BECAUSE HE HAS AN EXISTING CONTRACT THERE FOR SERCO THAT NEEDS TO BE FULFILLED, AND THEY DO NEED TO LIVE UP TO THEIR OBLIGATIONS, BUT ALSO IT WILL AFFECT HOW THEY'RE VIEWED WHEN IT COMES TO OTHER CONTRACTS. DEBORAH, THERE SAYING THEY SHOULD STAY OUT OF SOCIAL SERVICES. SO, HE EXPRESSED AN INTEREST IN TRAINS. SO IS IT OK FOR THEM TO GO INTO MANAGING THAT KIND OF THING? OH, I THINK IT'S OK ALSO FOR THEM TO BE IN SOCIAL SERVICES, TO BE HONEST. THINGS DO HAPPEN IN PRISONS. THINGS HAPPEN IN ANYWHERE WHICH IS A SECURE FACILITY. I'VE WORKED IN THEM. FIGHTS HAPPEN, AND IN SOME PERHAPS RATHER PERVERSE WAY, HAVING A SPARRING, FORMALISED OUTLET FOR AGGRESSION MAY NOT BE SUCH A BAD THING IF IT'S DONE AND IT'S UP FRONT, AND WHAT I SAW IN THE SO-CALLED FILMED FIGHT WASN'T ACTUALLY ALL THAT AGGRESSIVE WHEN IT COMES TO IT, SO I` I'M JUST SAYING THAT THESE THINGS DO HAPPEN, AND IN SOME WAYS, CREATING A FORUM OR OUTLET FOR IT MIGHT BE BETTER THAN IT HAPPENING SOMEWHERE ELSE WHERE THE RESULTS CAN ACTUALLY BE MUCH MORE DEVASTATING. THAT'S HARD TO TAKE SERIOUSLY, SAM LOTU-IIGA'S REFERENCE TO SPARRING, AND I THINK THE MINISTER'S PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN, AT BEST, HAPLESS. BUT WHAT WE ARE SEEING THOUGH, IS A REAL CONCERN WITH` THERE IS PROVISION OF CERTAIN STATE SERVICES, SUCH AS CARE OF CHILDREN, SUCH AS, UM, PRISONERS, AND THOSE TWO ISSUES, AS WE KNOW AND WILL DISCUSS, ARE NOT DISCONNECTED. WHERE` A PROFIT MOTIVE CAN BE A SERIOUS PROBLEM. THERE ARE SOME THINGS WHERE THE PROVISION OF THE SERVICE AND ITS FUNDAMENTAL IMPORTANCE TO SOCIETY AND ITS ROLE AND EFFECTS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN INTRODUCING A PROFIT MOTIVE, AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING INEVITABLY IS COS-CUTTING, UNDER-REPORTING AND A LACK OF EFFECTIVE MONITORING. IT'S NOT JUST FIGHT CLUBS, THOUGH. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE BEING INJURED IN THE PRISON, ACTUALLY, THEIR RIGHTS TO BE PROTECTED ARE NOT UPHELD. MENTAL HEALTH CONSUMERS IN THE PRISON ARE NOT GETTING THE TREATMENT THEY REQUIRE, AND THE OMBUDSMAN'S BEEN LOOKING INTO THAT. SO I THINK THE ISSUES ARE A LOT MORE SERIOUS. MUCH LIFE CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY, THERE'S ISSUES HERE OF MONITORING AND TRANSPARENCY. AND, YOU KNOW, THE STATE HAS AN OBLIGATION TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THEIR CARE HAVE THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS UPHELD, AND, FRANKLY THE GOVERNMENT AND SERCO HAVE FAILED. IS IT GONNA DAMPEN THE GOVERNMENT'S APPETITE FOR, YOU KNOW` EPPS? YEAH, AND LOOKING AT` THEY'RE LOOKING AT, OBVIOUSLY, GETTING SOMEONE INTO STATE HOUSING AND CONTRACTED THERE. IS IT GOING TO DAMPEN THAT APPETITE? I THINK IT'S NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO DAMPEN THE APPETITE. WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO IS MAKE THE GOVERNMENT MUCH MORE CAUTIOUS, TO MAKE SURE THAT DUTY OF CARE IS WRITTEN INTO THE CONTRACTS, AND THAT THEY'RE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THE MONITORING AS THEY MOVE FORWARD. YOU ARE GOING TO SEE MUCH MORE PRIVATE PARTICIPATION IN A LOT OF THESE AREAS. IT'S ALREADY BEEN SIGNALLED BY THE GOVERNMENT, AND IT WILL CONTINUE. I DON'T SEE THE GOVERNMENT PULLING BACK. I THINK THIS IS A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY TO START TALKING ABOUT CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY THEN, ISN'T IT, BECAUSE FO YOU SEE, DEBORAH, THAT GIVEN THE REPORTS WE'VE HAD THIS WEEK, IS IT TIME TO START LOOKING AT OUTSOURCING SERVICES IN THAT AREA? I THINK THAT THE PROBLEMS WE'VE SEEN IN THE CARE AND PROTECTION SYSTEM ARE SYMPTOMATIC, ACTUALLY, OF YEARS OF GOVERNMENT NEGLECT WHEN IT COMES TO UNDERSTANDING THE RIGHTS AND NEEDS OF CHILDREN. AS A NATION, WE DON'T DO WELL. THERE'S A LOT TO LOVE ABOUT AOTEAROA NZ, BUT, FRANKLY, OUR RECORD IN PROTECTING OUR CHILDREN AND UPHOLDING THEIR WELL-BEING AND THEIR RIGHTS IS WOEFUL, AND AS A NATION, WE ALL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE PART THAT WE CAN PLAY TO IMPROVE THAT. SO FIRST OF AL, WE'VE GOTTA BE BUILDING COMMUNITIES AND FAMILIES THAT ARE STRONG AND CAN TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN. THE GOVERNMENT HAS A ROLE TO PLAY IN ENABLING THAT TO HAPPEN SO THAT WE PREVENT CHILDREN FROM BECOMING VULNERABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. WE HEARD THE CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER SAY THAT` BUT HOW MUCH DOES MONEY HAVE TO DO WITH THAT? MONEY HAS A LOT TO DO WITH IT. FIRST OF ALL, OUR FAMILIES HAVE TO HAVE ADEQUATE INCOME TO MEET THE NEEDS OF THEIR CHILDREN, AND THEN, WITHIN THE SYSTEM, WE HAVE TO HAVE TRANSPARENT BUDGET APPLICATION AND INVESTMENT THAT PRIORITISES OUR CHILDREN. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE FAILED TO DO THAT. THE UN COMMITTEE ON THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD HAS SAID TO NZ WE NEED TRANSPARENCY ABOUT WHERE THAT MONEY IS GOING, AND JUDGE CAROLYN HENWOOD MADE THE POINT THAT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE MONEY THAT IS GOING INTO CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY, WHETHER IT'S GOING INTO THE DEPARTMENT OR GETTING TO THE CHILDREN. WE'VE GOT TO TIDY THIS UP. YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT 5000 EXTREMELY VULNERABLE CHILDREN. WHEN THEY'RE IN STATE CARE, IT IS A PRIME OPPORTUNITY FOR THE GOVERNMENT AND THE SYSTEM TO SUPPORT THOSE CHILDREN AND SET THEM ON A NEW TRACK FOR THE FUTURE. FRAN, THIS IS TOUGH POLITICS, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? COS IT IS ABOUT MONEY, AND ANNE TOLLEY IS SAYING, 'WE DON'T JUST WANNA THROW MONEY AT THIS.' THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE RIGHT ANSWER. AND IT'S` IT'S REALLY HARD, ACTUALLY, FOR THE PUBLIC SERVANTS AND THE SOCIAL WORKERS WHO WORK IN CYFS. CYFS HAS BEEN A WHIPPING BOY FOR MANY MANY YEARS NOW, AND I THINK THAT POINT THAT WAS MADE IN THE INTERVIEW EARLIER ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO FIND A FAMILY TO PUT A CHILD AT RISK IN, THAT'S ACTUALLY QUITE SERIOUS. ALSO, THE NUMBERS ARE QUITE HUGE ABOUT THOSE KIDS COMING INTO CARE. BUT FAMILIES WHO TAKE ON THAT OBLIGATION, I THINK, SHOULD BE PAID VERY WELL INDEED. VERNON, WHAT DO YOU THINK? WHAT DO YOU THINK? FRAN'S SAYING THEY SHOULD BE PAID WELL. LOOK, CERTAINLY. I THINK USING THE TERM THROWING MONEY AT IT, OF COURSE, IS VERY LOADED. WELL, IT'S INVESTING. LET'S CALL IT INVESTING. WELL, ABSOLUTELY, AND IT IS. INVESTING IN THEIR FUTURE. AND THERE ARE FEW THINGS, IF ANYTHING, MORE IMPORTANT THAN LOOKING AFTER OUR MOST VULNERABLE CHILDREN, YOU KNOW, AND WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS IN PRISONS, I MEAN, THE JUDGES, ANDREW BECROFT, CHIEF JUDGE OF THE YOUTH COURT, AND ALSO THE JUDGE THAT WE'VE JUST HAD ON, HAVE BOTH CITED THE STATISTIC THAT IT'S STAGGERING NUMBERS, LIKE, 82% OF PEOPLE COMING THROUGH THE YOUTH COURT WHO ARE THEN GOING ON TO FURTHER CRIMINALITY AND PROBLEMS. 83% HAVE COME THROUGH THE CHILD SYSTEM, SO, I MEAN, THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL INVESTMENT THAT WE NEED TO MAKE. ALL RIGHT. AS FAR AS PRIVATE PROVISION GOES, ONE OF THE BIG TAKE-AWAYS FROM THE REPORT AS WELL IS THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE INFORMATION, THE DATA, WE NEED. IT'S NOT AGGREGATED PROPERLY. THE CONCERN WOULD BE, OF COURSE, THAT WE CAN'T TAKE LARGER-SCALE ANALYSES. SO THE PROBLEM, OF COURSE, WITH THEM FARMING OUT TO PRIVATE PROVIDERS IS THAT YOU'RE GONNA HAVE EVEN MORE DIFFICULTY ACTUALLY GETTING THOSE NUMBERS WE NEED. ALL RIGHT, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. WE'LL BE BACK WITH MORE JUST IN A MOMENT. DON'T GO AWAY. WELCOME BACK. THIS IS 'THE NATION', AND DURING THE BREAK, OUR PANEL'S JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT CAREGIVERS AND SOCIAL WORKERS. DEBORAH, YOU HAD SOME REALLY INTERESTING INFORMATION THERE. HOW SURE ARE WE OF OUR SOCIAL WORKERS? YEAH, CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY HAVE, OF COURSE, BEEN WORKING FOR A LONG TIME TO IMPROVE, YOU KNOW, THE WAY THEY RESPOND TO THE NEEDS OF CHILDREN. BUT WHAT BECAME CLEAR WHEN THEY DID A REVIEW OF WORKLOAD AND CASELOAD FOR THEIR STAFF IS THAT THEY'RE SHORT ABOUT 400 SOCIAL WORKERS. THEY IDENTIFIED THAT MOST CHILDREN ACTUALLY NEED AN INVESTMENT OF TIME OF ABOUT FOUR HOURS A WEEK FROM THEIR SOCIAL WORKER. AND IN ORDER TO MEET THE NEEDS OF THESE CHILDREN AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE RESPONDING TO THOSE NEEDS, THEY NEED MANY MORE SOCIAL WORKERS THAN THEY'VE GOT AND MANY MORE CAREGIVERS. WOW, THAT'S A SCARY NUMBER. WE ALSO HEARD FROM HELEN CLARK THIS MORNING. INTERESTING TALKING TO HER ABOUT SOME BIG ISSUES ` BIG GLOBAL ISSUES. UM, SHE SAYS WE ALL NEED TO LIFT OUR AMBITIONS IN TERMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND NZ IS INCLUDED IN THAT. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT? WELL, THAT'S UNDOUBTEDLY TRUE. UH, WE'RE NOT REALLY DOING ENOUGH. OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, HELEN NEEDS TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH WHAT SHE CAN SAY, BUT, YOU KNOW, I CAN CERTAINLY SAY IT A LOT MORE STRONGLY, THAT NZ IS DEFINITELY NOT PULLING ITS WEIGHT BY INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS. THERE IS ALSO A GREAT OPPORTUNITY HERE. YOU KNOW, OF COURSE WE FOCUS A LOT ON THE COSTS AND THE HARM TO EXISTING INDUSTRIES AND SO ON, BUT THERE ARE MASSIVE OPPORTUNITIES FOR A COUNTRY LIKE NZ. YOU KNOW, WE ALREADY LEAD IN OUR RENEWABLE ENERGY. THERE ARE A LOT OF TECHNOLOGIES AND A LOT OF APPROACHES WHERE WE CAN REALLY LEAD THE WORLD, AND IT CAN ACTUALLY PUT NZ ON A MORE SOUND ECONOMIC FOOTING IN THE FUTURE AS WELL. I MEAN, SHE OBVIOUSLY WORKS IN DEVELOPMENT AND AID THERE, FRAN, AND SHE'S TALKING ABOUT GETTING REVENUE IN, AND WE DISCUSSED BIG CORPORATES WHO ARE, MM, AVOIDING TAX. AND SHE WANTS THEM TO PAY TAX WHERE THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY, NOT OFF IN SOME SAFE HAVEN WHERE THERE'S CHEAPER RATES. AGREED? WITH NEW RULES AROUND BASE EROSION AND PROFIT SHIFTING, AS IT'S KNOWN COLLOQUIALLY. BUT, ACTUALLY, IT'S REALLY KNOWN MORE AS, YOU KNOW, APPLE, GOOGLE, A WHOLE PILE OF THE DIGITAL COMPANIES IN PARTICULAR. AND THE GOVERNMENT HERE ALSO IS WORKING IN THAT AREA. BUT THE OTHER THING THAT WE DO NOTICE AND WE NOTICE WITH NZ COMPANIES THAT REPORT THIS BACK, IF THEY TRY AND DO AN ACQUISITION OF A LOCAL COMPANY IN NZ, THEY FIND THEMSELVES UP AGAINST WELL-CAPITALISED FOREIGN COMPANIES WHO BUY THE COMPANY BUT THEN PUT ALL THE DEBT ON THE BALANCE SHEET OF THE COMPANY. AND IT ACTUALLY` AND THEY DON'T END UP PAYING MUCH TAX, ANY OF THOSE COMPANIES, AFTERWARDS. AND THERE'S BEEN QUITE A FEW CASES OF THAT, AND THAT NEEDS TO BE TACKLED, AND IT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT'S COME UP REPEATEDLY IN OUR 'MOOD OF THE BOARDROOM' SURVEY IS IT DOES PUT LOCAL COMPANIES AT A DISADVANTAGE WHEN IT COMES TO ACQUIRING COMPANIES. SHE'S VERY DIPLOMATIC IN HER LANGUAGE. WE TALKED ABOUT REFUGEES THERE AND THE QUOTA WE HAVE HERE. SHE WOULDN'T BE PUSHED ON WHETHER WE SHOULD RAISE IT FROM 750, BUT AGAIN THAT DEVELOPED COUNTRIES NEED TO DO MORE IN THIS AREA. DO YOU THINK WE'RE DOING ENOUGH? I THINK NZ DOES NEED TO DO MORE. YOU KNOW, I'M REALLY CONCERNED, ACTUALLY, THAT THERE'S BEEN QUITE A SORT OF LACKLUSTRE INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE TO THE CRISIS IN SYRIA. WE'VE GOT TO AS AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY RECOGNISE THAT WE ARE INTERCONNECTED AND THERE ARE FLOW-ON EFFECTS FOR THOSE COUNTRIES THAT NEIGHBOUR, YOU KNOW, UNSTABLE STATES, AND WHEN THERE'S A MASS MIGRATION OF REFUGEES INTO THE COUNTRIES, IT PUTS A HUGE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE ON. HERE IN NZ, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT A LOT TO OFFER, AND I THINK THAT WE NEED TO STEP UP TO THE MARK AND BE A GOOD GLOBAL CITIZEN, YOU KNOW, TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE HOMES TO THESE VERY VULNERABLE FAMILIES. AND FRANKLY, 750 REFUGEES A YEAR IS NOT ENOUGH. I WAS INTERESTED WHEN I ALSO TALKED TO HER ABOUT THE CHINESE HOUSE BUYERS HERE, AND SHE SAID ETHNICITY SHOULD NEVER BE A FACTOR AS A POLITICAL TARGET. I THINK IS THAT AS CLOSE TO CRITICISM AS YOU GET IN HER CURRENT POSITION? WELL, CERTAINLY, AND THAT'S A GREAT PRINCIPLE. BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING, THOUGH, IS THIS IS ALL HAPPENING IN A MASSIVE INFORMATION VACUUM. YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT COLLECTING THE DATA OF WHO'S ACTUALLY BUYING, THEN YOU ARE RELYING ON BIG ASSUMPTIONS THAT ARE BEING MADE, AND PEOPLE ARE SAYING, 'OH, WELL, WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF ASIAN PEOPLE IN THE AUCTION ROOMS,' AND SO THE RUMOUR MILL BEGINS. NOW` AND IT'S VERY VERY HARD TO GET ANY MEANINGFUL DATA ON THAT, SO, OF COURSE, RUMOUR AND INNUENDO IS GOING TO RUSH IN. DO YOU THINK THAT WAS VEILED CRITICISM OF HER PARTY, THOUGH, FRAN? VEILED CRITICISM OF THE LABOUR PARTY? OF COURSE, TO A DEGREE, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT HARD TO GET THIS DATA. I MEAN, AUCKLAND COUNCIL, EVERY TIME YOU BUY A PROPERTY, YOU'VE GOT TO REGISTER THE OWNER AND WHERE THEY PAY THEIR RATES FROM. SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY AT LEAST GET A REASONABLE CUT ON IT, BUT NOBODY ACTUALLY GOES AND COLLECTS THE DATA. THE GOVERNMENT` THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOING TO GO AS FAR AS IT SHOULD WITH A PUBLIC REGISTER LATER IN THE YEAR. THE GOVERNMENT HAS ACTUALLY PULLED BACK FROM A LOT OF THINGS THAT GIVE YOU A SNAPSHOT INTO WHAT'S HAPPENING. AND, OF COURSE, THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF THE PRICES BEING FUELLED, BUT ALSO, AS WE HEARD FROM THE RESERVE BANK GOVERNOR THIS WEEK, A LOT OF INVESTOR SENTIMENT AND INVESTORS DRIVING THE MARKET UP HERE, WITH 41% OF HOUSES NOW IN INVESTOR HANDS. WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, FRAN, BUT I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU QUICKLY ` WE HEARD FROM BILL ENGLISH THE OTHER WEEK THAT HE SAID NOTHING REALLY KEEPS HIM AWAKE AT NIGHT. BUT HERE WE'VE GOT GRANT SPENCER THIS WEEK SAYING HE IS KEPT AWAKE AT NIGHT BY THE HOUSING MARKET. WHO'S GOT IT RIGHT? WELL, UM, I THINK IT'S AN INTERESTING DUALITY, ISN'T IT, BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT THE FINANCE MINISTER, WHO'S GOT TO KEEP THE CONFIDENCE OF THE NATION, BUT YOU'VE GOT THE RESERVE BANK GOVERNOR WORRIED ABOUT FINANCIAL AND SYSTEMIC RISK, AND HE'S RIGHT TO BE WORRIED ABOUT IT. HE'S RIGHT TO BE WORRIED ABOUT, AS HE PUTS IT, THE PRICE-TO-INCOME RATIO IN THE AUCKLAND MARKET. RIGHT. > HAVE ONE SORT OF WHAMMING IN THE ECONOMY, AND IT'LL BE PROBLEMATIC. ALL RIGHT, WE'VE GOT TO LEAVE IT THERE, SORRY. TIME NOW FOR A PEEK AT NEXT WEEK'S NEWS AGENDA. THERE'LL BE INTEREST IN WHO MIGHT BUY OUR STATE HOUSES TOMORROW AS OFFICIAL MARKET SOUNDINGS BEGIN. THE GREEN PARTY CO-LEADER JAMES SHAW WILL LAUNCH A MAJOR CLIMATE PLAN ON THURSDAY. AND FRIDAY IS THE FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE FIRST CHRISTCHURCH EARTHQUAKE. AND ON THAT, TORBEN AKEL IS HEADING TO CHRISTCHURCH THIS WEEK AND WILL BRING YOU HIS STORY NEXT WEEKEND. BUT THAT'S IT FROM US TODAY. FROM ME, THE REST OF 'THE NATION' TEAM AND ALL THE STUDIO CREW HERE, DO ENJOY THE REST OF YOUR WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY ABLE WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015