GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO 'THE NATION'. I'M LISA OWEN. TODAY ` HARD QUESTIONS AS A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS HITS HOME. NZ CAN PRIDE ITSELF ON THE FACT THAT IT'S ONE OF THE COUNTRIES THAT'S CONSISTENTLY TAKEN REFUGEES FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. THIS IS A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS NOW. AMIDST THE DEBATE, PICTURES OF DESPERATION BROKE HEARTS AND CHANGED MINDS. HOW DID IT COME TO THIS, AND WHAT DO WE DO NOW? WE CROSS TO EUROPE TO THE AGENCIES ON THE FRONT LINE AND HEAR NEW CALLS FOR ACTION FROM RACE RELATIONS COMMISSIONER DAME SUSAN DEVOY. THEN JOHN KEY'S ALWAYS SAID HIS PRIORITY IS DOING RIGHT BY THE REFUGEES WE DO TAKE, BUT HOW GOOD ARE WE AT CARING FOR THEM? NICOLA KEAN FINDS OUT. AND LATER ` TAKING STOCK FIVE YEARS AFTER A DISASTER OF A DIFFERENT KIND ` TORBEN AKEL TAKES THE PULSE IN THE HEART OF CHRISTCHURCH AND ASKS THREE MAYORS WHY IT'S TAKING SO LONG. PLUS, THIS WEEK'S BURNING POLITICAL QUESTIONS WITH JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO. AND OUR PANEL ` DARIEN FENTON, SIMON WILSON AND JAMIE WHYTE. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015 THANKS FOR BEING WITH US TODAY. TO SHARE YOUR VIEWS WITH US AND OTHER VIEWERS, YOU CAN TEXT 3330 FOR 50C OR EMAIL THE NATION AT TV3, OR WE'RE ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK @THENATIONTV3. AND YOU CAN ALSO GIVE YOUR 2C WORTH TO OUR TWITTER PANEL, TRACEY BARNETT AND BEVAN CHUANG, AT #NATIONTV3. WELL, THE PICTURES FROM THE BORDERS OF EUROPE HAVE MADE FOR A HARROWING WEEK, AND BE WARNED BECAUSE YOU MAY FIND THESE NEXT IMAGES DISTRESSING. ONE IN PARTICULAR WAS SEARED INTO HEARTS WORLDWIDE WE'VE SEEN THE PACKED TRAINS, NOW THIS LONG MARCH FROM HUNGARY TO THE WEST, AND WE'VE HEARD A PLEA FOR REFUGE BECOME A CHANT OF DEFIANCE. ALL CHANT: GERMANY! GERMANY! GERMANY! GERMANY! GERMANY! GERMANY! WE'LL CROSS TO GENEVA SHORTLY AND ASK THE UNHCR WHAT NZ CAN DO, BUT FIRST LET'S TALK TO STEPHEN RYAN FROM THE RED CROSS, WHO WAS IN BUDAPEST AT THE KELETI TRAIN STATION. GOOD MORNING, STEPHEN. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE SITUATION IS LIKE AT THE TRAIN STATION NOW? WELL, RIGHT NOW AT THE TRAIN STATION, IT'S A SITUATION OF EXTREME TENSION. THERE'S MANY POLICE AROUND HERE TO TRY AND MANAGE THE CROWD THAT'S HERE, BUT THERE'S BEEN A NUMBER OF SIGNIFICANT EVENTS TODAY, INCLUDING THE DEPARTURE OF MANY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WALKING ALONG THE HIGHWAY TOWARDS AUSTRIA, TRYING TO... THEY'VE LOST THEIR PATIENCE WITH WAITING HERE AT THE STATION, AND THEY'RE HOPING THAT IT MIGHT BE BETTER FOR THEM TO JUST WALK. AND THESE ARE EXTREME SCENES; SOMETHING THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN HERE IN EUROPE FOR DECADES. YOU'VE BEEN WITH THEM WHILE THEY'VE BEEN WALKING. WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THEM? WELL, I HAVE TO SAY, IT'S MOSTLY FAMILIES. THERE'S SOME INDIVIDUALS THERE, BUT THERE ARE MANY FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN, SOME YOUNG CHILDREN, EVEN, THAT ARE MAKING THIS JOURNEY. AND TO BE HONEST, MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT I SPOKE TO TODAY, THEY SEEM TO BE QUITE HAPPY THAT THEY'RE FINALLY ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THEIR JOURNEY. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TOMORROW IS GOING TO BRING. THEY ONLY KNOW THAT AT THE MOMENT THEY'RE ABLE TO MOVE. THEY'RE RECEIVING ASSISTANCE FROM HUNGARIAN CITIZENS ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, AS WELL AS THE RED CROSS, WHO'S PROVIDING FOOD, WATER, BLANKETS, CLOTHING AND OTHER ITEMS TO TRY AND ASSIST THESE PEOPLE AS THEY MOVE. AND IN SOME WAYS, YOU COULD VIEW THAT THEY'RE THE LUCKY ONES, BECAUSE THEY'RE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THEIR JOURNEY AND THEY HAVE THIS SENSE OF JOY, WHEREAS MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WAITING HERE ARE STILL UNSURE OF WHAT TOMORROW IS GOING TO BRING. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE PEOPLE WAITING, WE'VE SEEN THESE PICTURES OF PEOPLE WALKING, WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE CLAWING TO GET ON TO TRAINS, PICTURES OF PEOPLE PUSHING THEIR CHILDREN UNDER THE RAZOR WIRE; WHAT IS IT LIKE TO WITNESS THAT KIND OF DESPERATION? WELL, I THINK IT'S THE TYPE OF SITUATION THAT CAN ONLY HAUNT YOU. IF YOU SEE SCENES LIKE THIS, AND ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE A PARENT, YOU CAN ONLY HOPE TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND HOW DESPERATE A PARENT MUST BE TO BE ABLE TO BRING THEIR FAMILY ON A JOURNEY SUCH AS THIS. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE A CHOICE ABOUT. WHEN I SPEAK TO THESE PEOPLE, MANY OF THEM, THE MAJORITY OF THEM, ARE FLEEING FROM COUNTRIES OF CONFLICT, OF WAR, OF INSECURITY. THEY'RE FLEEING FOR THEIR LIVES BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANYBODY WOULD PUT THEIR CHILD IN DANGER, PUT THEIR CHILD INTO A BOAT AND TAKE A RISK, IF THEY HAD ANY OTHER CHOICE. AND THIS IS THE CASE. FOR MANY PEOPLE THAT I SPEAK TO HERE, THEY'RE QUITE DISTRESSED BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE IS GOING TO HOLD. THEY'VE COME HERE TO EUROPE IN HOPE OF FINDING SAFETY AND SECURITY, AND SO FAR, THEY'VE FOUND THE SITUATION VARIABLE. AT TIMES, MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC AND ORGANISATIONS LIKE THE RED CROSS HAVE HELPED THEM, WHEREAS AT OTHER TIMES, THEY'VE BEEN FRUSTRATED BY A LACK OF CLARITY ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENTS OF EUROPE AND THE EU INSTITUTIONS. BUT I'M HOPEFUL THAT IN THE COMING DAYS, THERE SHOULD BE A MORE LONG-TERM SOLUTION WHICH WILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO SEEK REFUGE IN A PLACE WHERE THEY'LL BE ABLE TO KNOW THAT THEIR FAMILY IS SAFE. WELL, WE CAN TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE POURING INTO EUROPE AND TURKEY, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT DIFFERENCE A SINGLE PHOTO MADE OF ONE LITTLE BOY LYING FACE DOWN, DROWNED ON A BEACH. WHAT DIFFERENCE HAS THAT MADE? WELL, I THINK THAT IMAGE ` IT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CAN'T IGNORE. IT'S SOMETHING THAT PARTICULARLY IF YOU'RE A PARENT, YOU REALISE THAT THAT COULD BE YOUR CHILD. MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOUNG CHILDREN, AND WHEN THEY LOOK AT THIS IMAGE, ALL OF A SUDDEN IT BRINGS HOME TO THEM THAT NO PARENT WOULD BE TAKING THIS RISK IF THEY HAD A CHOICE. IT'S SOMETHING WHICH PUTS A FACE AND A NAME TOGETHER. INSTEAD OF JUST GREAT NUMBERS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE CROSSING EUROPE, ALL OF A SUDDEN IT'S INDIVIDUALS ` CHILDREN, FAMILY, PARENTS ` AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO FAR MORE THAN NUMBERS, AND THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH BRINGS BACK THE HUMANITY INTO THE SITUATION LIKE THIS, AND PROTECTING HUMANITY IS SOMETHING WHICH WE NOW ALL MUST DO. TO FIND A SOLUTION TO THIS CRISIS, NOT ONLY GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO BECOME INVOLVED BUT ALSO MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC, AND EACH OF US NEEDS TO STEP FORWARD AND RECOGNISE THAT WE EACH HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT HUMANITY AND STOP INDIFFERENCE TO THESE REFUGEES. SO SAY IN NZ, THEN, WHAT DO WE DO? WHAT CAN WE DO AS INDIVIDUALS AND AS A COUNTRY? WHAT CAN WE DO, AND WHAT CAN OUR GOVERNMENT DO? WELL, I THINK AT THE MOMENT THERE'S A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT THE NUMBER OF REFUGEES THAT COUNTRIES CAN BEAR, AND I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE SITUATION THAT MANY OF THESE PEOPLE ARE FACING HERE IN EUROPE AND INDEED IN THEIR COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN, BECAUSE A VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE AFFECTED BY CONFLICT REMAIN IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES. THEY MIGHT BE DISPLACED, BUT THEY REMAIN THERE. AND I THINK EACH OF US HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO STEP FORWARD AND HAVE OUR VOICE HEARD THAT WE WANT TO HAVE MORE PROTECTION FOR THESE REFUGEES AND HAVE THEM RECOGNISED AS REFUGEES. CERTAINLY AS INDIVIDUALS WE CAN ALSO, FOR NZ, FOR EXAMPLE, CAN PROVIDE SUPPORT TO ORGANISATIONS SUCH AS THE RED CROSS OR MANY OTHERS WHO ARE TRYING TO ASSIST PEOPLE IN COUNTRIES ALL THE WAY FROM TURKEY, GREECE, FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, SERBIA, HUNGARY, AUSTRIA, GERMANY AND BEYOND. THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO NEED SUPPORT, AND EVEN THOUGH NZ IS FAR, FAR FROM HERE, I'M SURE THAT THE IMAGES THAT YOU'VE SEEN IN RECENT DAYS CAN ONLY BUT TOUCH YOUR HEARTS AND MAKE YOU RECOGNISE THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALL HAVE A COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY TO RESPOND TO. YOU MENTION THOSE COUNTRIES AND HOW WIDESPREAD THE PROBLEM IS, AND THERE ARE HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SPREAD ACROSS EUROPE AND TURKEY. FOOD, WATER, EVERYDAY CONDITIONS ` WHAT IS IT LIKE? WELL, I THINK IT VARIES FROM LOCATION TO LOCATION, LISA. CERTAINLY ON ARRIVAL IN GREECE, GREECE IS A COUNTRY WHICH HASN'T HAD THE STRONGEST ECONOMY IN RECENT MONTHS AND YEARS, AND CERTAINLY RESPONDING THERE HAS BEEN A CHALLENGE. SO WHEN PEOPLE ARRIVE, THEY LITERALLY ONLY HAVE WHAT THEY'RE ABLE TO CARRY WITH THEM ON THEIR BACKPACK AS THEY GET ON TO A BOAT. SO THAT'S ALL THEY HAVE WITH THEM, SO WHEN THEY ARRIVE, THEY NEED ASSISTANCE FROM THE PUBLIC AND FROM ORGANISATIONS SUCH AS THE RED CROSS, AND WE'RE TRYING OUR BEST TO RESPOND. BUT THE RED CROSS HAS APPEALED FOR SOME 2.7 MILLION EURO TO BE ABLE TO ASSIST PEOPLE FURTHER. AND IN THE COMING DAYS WE'RE LIKELY TO ASSIST` TO APPEAL FOR FURTHER FUNDS TO BE ABLE TO ASSIST PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES SUCH AS SERBIA, MACEDONIA AND PERHAPS EVEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES AGAIN. THE MAJORITY OF ASSISTANCE THAT IS NEEDED IS SIMPLE STUFF. IT'S FOOD; IT'S WATER; IT'S SHELTER; IT'S SANITATION. HERE AT THE TRAIN STATION, THERE ARE ONLY A NUMBER OF TOILETS, AND YET THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. THERE SIMPLY AREN'T ENOUGH RESOURCES AT PRESENT TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO A CRISIS ON THIS SCALE IN THE HUMANITARIAN WAY, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT ABSOLUTELY MUST CHANGE. LOOK, WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US THIS MORNING, STEPHEN RYAN. I KNOW YOU HAVE HAD A REALLY BUSY DAY THERE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. RIGHT, WELL, TURNING NOW TO THE UNHCR, THE UNITED NATIONS REFUGEE AGENCY, IT'S TRYING TO MANAGE THIS TRAIL OF TEARS ACROSS EUROPE AND CARE FOR THE REFUGEES BUT HAS REPEATEDLY STRESSED THAT WITH THE RIGHT ACTION, THIS NEED NOT BE A CRISIS. I SPOKE TO THE UNHCR'S ARIANE RUMMERY IN SWITZERLAND JUST HOURS AGO AND ASKED HOW HAS IT COME TO THIS? WELL, WHAT'S FUELLING THIS REFUGEE CRISIS WHICH WE'RE SEEING NOW IN EUROPE REALLY PICKING UP THE PACE IS THE SYRIA CRISIS, AND THE SYRIAN WAR IS NOW IN ITS FIFTH YEAR. AND THE SITUATION FOR PEOPLE INSIDE SYRIA AND IN THE NEIGHBOURING COUNTRIES, WHICH ARE STILL HOSTING THE MAJORITY OF THE REFUGEES ` MORE THAN 4 MILLION ` ARE BECOMING INCREASINGLY BLEAK. SO IN SYRIA, YOU HAVE A MULTITUDE OF ARMED GROUPS, YOU HAVE WIDESPREAD HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, YOU HAVE WIDESPREAD DISREGARD FOR INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, THE ECONOMY IS CONTRACTED, PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH ELECTRICITY, THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH BASIC GOODS, AND THERE ARE 12 MILLION PEOPLE INSIDE SYRIA IN NEED OF HUMANITARIAN AID. SO IT'S NOT ANY WONDER, REALLY, THAT MORE AND MORE OF THEM ARE LEAVING THEIR HOMES AND SEEKING REFUGE ELSEWHERE. HOW BAD IS IT IN TERMS OF THE NUMBERS THAT ARE TURNING UP ON EUROPE'S DOORSTEP EVERY DAY? WELL, SO FAR THIS YEAR THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 300,000 PEOPLE WHO'VE CROSSED EUROPE BY SEA. NOT ALL OF THESE ARE SYRIANS, SO THIS IS A HUGE INCREASE FOR EUROPE, WHERE IT'S THE SUMMER MONTHS, AND SO THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOVING ARE, OF COURSE, MOVING WHEN THEY THINK IT WILL BE LESS DANGEROUS. BUT WE DO NEED TO KEEP IT IN PERSPECTIVE AND THAT THOSE WHO ARE COMING TO EUROPE ARE STILL JUST A FRACTION ` LESS THAN 10%, IN FACT ` OF THOSE THAT ARE BEING HOSTED IN THE REGION AS WELL. DID IT NEED TO GET TO THIS POINT? HAS THERE BEEN A LACK OF POLITICAL WILL TO COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS BEFORE NOW? WELL, THERE'S CERTAINLY BEEN A LACK OF A POLITICAL SOLUTION TO THE CONFLICT, AND THAT IS ALL THAT'S REALLY ULTIMATELY GOING TO END THIS CRISIS. BUT I THINK THERE ALSO HAS BEEN A LACK OF SUPPORT, A LACK OF ENOUGH SUPPORT FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY FOR THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGIONS LIKE JORDAN AND LEBANON, WHO ARE HOSTING SO MANY REFUGEES. IF I COULD JUST GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, WE'RE NOW ALMOST THREE-QUARTERS OF THE WAY THROUGH 2015, BUT OUR COMBINED APPEAL OF ALL AGENCIES TO HELP THE SYRIAN REFUGEES IN THE REGION IS ONLY 37% FUNDED. WELL, YOU TALK ABOUT NOT HAVING ALL THE FUNDING YOU NEED. ANTONIO GUTERRES HAS BEEN CALLING FOR A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, AND HE'S BEEN CALLING IT FOR SOME TIME NOW, SO WHAT WOULD THAT PLAN LOOK LIKE? WELL, WE NEED A MULTI-PRONGED APPROACH. ONE OF THOSE, AS I SAID IS BETTER FUNDING FOR THE REFUGEE PROGRAMMES IN THE REGION. BUT WE ALSO NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE FIND MORE SAFE, LEGAL WAYS FOR REFUGEES TO GET TO EUROPE OR ELSEWHERE. PEOPLE ARE ONLY RISKING THE LIVES OF THEIR FAMILIES ON BOATS BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S SAFER THAN WHAT THEY'RE FACING ON LAND. SO WE NEED MASSIVE MORE RESETTLEMENT PROGRAMMES ` NOT JUST TRADITIONAL RESETTLEMENT BUT ALSO MORE FLEXIBLE FORMS OF HUMANITARIAN ADMISSION, WHETHER THAT'S THROUGH INDIVIDUAL SPONSORSHIP PROGRAMMES WHEREBY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU GET CHURCH GROUPS OR NGOS OR INDIVIDUALS IN COMMUNITIES AT THE MUNICIPAL LEVEL THAT CAN SPONSOR PEOPLE AND MORE FLEXIBILITY ABOUT STATES ALLOWING THAT TO HAPPEN. WE ALSO NEED MORE LABOUR PROGRAMMES, MORE STUDY VISAS ` THINGS LIKE THAT WHICH WILL CREATE MORE LEGAL CHANNELS. AND, OF COURSE, WE NEED STATES TO KEEP THEIR BORDERS OPEN AND TO HAVE EFFICIENT AND HUMANE ASYLUM SYSTEMS IN PLACE TO RECEIVE THE GREAT MANY MORE REFUGEES WHO ARE NOW TURNING UP, FOR EXAMPLE, IN EUROPE. WHAT ABOUT A COUNTRY LIKE, NZ, THOUGH, WHO IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD? WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO? WELL, WE CAN ASK NZ TO LOOK AT ITS FUNDING FOR HUMANITARIAN PROGRAMMES, THE UNHCR OR OTHER UN AGENCIES; WE CAN ASK NZ TO LOOK AT INCREASING THE NUMBER OF RESETTLEMENT PLACES IT ALLOCATES TO SYRIAN REFUGEES. NZ HAS RESPONDED TO OUR CALL TO DO THAT. IT'S SAID IT WILL TAKE 100 SYRIAN REFUGEES FROM THE MAJOR REFUGEE-HOSTING COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, AND THAT'S ON TOP OF ITS NORMAL QUOTA. SO THAT'S A GREAT START. IF NZ WANTED TO INCREASE THAT, OF COURSE WE'D BE VERY PLEASED. WELL, OUR PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID THAT HE'S CONCERNED EVEN IF WE COULD TAKE MORE REFUGEES, EVEN IF WE TOOK, SAY, AN EMERGENCY INTAKE, THAT WE CAN'T GUARANTEE THOSE REFUGEES WILL COME FROM THAT CRISIS IN EUROPE. IS THAT THE CASE? WELL, THAT'S REALLY UP TO NZ TO DECIDE IN ITS DISCUSSIONS WITH UNHCR. OF COURSE, UNHCR, FOR ITS NORMAL RESETTLEMENT PROGRAMME, LIKE STATES TO BE FLEXIBLE SO THAT WE CAN PLACE THOSE REFUGEES FROM AROUND THE WORLD MOST IN NEED. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WE'VE ASKED STATES TO TAKE MORE SYRIAN REFUGEES BECAUSE OF THE HUGE NEED ON TOP OF THAT. ARIANE RUMMERY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. SO REALLY INTERESTING AND POTENTIALLY BIG NEWS IN THAT INTERVIEW ` THE UNHCR SAYING THAT NZ HAS AGREED TO TAKE AN EXTRA HUNDRED REFUGEES ON TOP OF THE NORMAL QUOTA. NOW, THAT WOULD BE QUITE A CLIMB DOWN FOR NATIONAL FROM ITS POSITION JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, SO WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO CHECK THAT WITH THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE. AND DESPITE REPEATED REQUESTS FOR A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER, THEY HAVE REFUSED TO EITHER CONFIRM OR DENY. THEY SAY THEY CAN'T CONFIRM THAT THE UNHCR GOT IT WRONG, AND THEY HAVE SIMPLY REPEATED THAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT ALL OPTIONS. SO WE DON'T HAVE A CONFIRMATION BUT A SUGGESTION THERE THAT JOHN KEY HAS BOWED TO PUBLIC PRESSURE AND WILL TAKE A HUNDRED SYRIAN REFUGEES. NOW, JUST AHEAD ` A SPECIAL REPORT ON THE REFUGEES ALREADY HERE AND THOSE WHO CARE FOR THEM AND WHETHER WE ARE CUTTING CORNERS. THEN, CENTRAL CHRISTCHURCH IS RISING FROM THE ASHES, BUT IS IT HAPPENING FAST ENOUGH? WE TAKE A TOUR WITH THOSE WHO HAVE WORN THE MAYORAL CHAINS. WELCOME BACK. CALLS TO RAISE NZ'S REFUGEE QUOTA HAVE BEEN GAINING MOMENTUM OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS. THE GOVERNMENT'S BEEN SAYING ALL YEAR, THOUGH, THAT IT'S STICKING TO 750. UNTIL SUGGESTIONS OF A BACKDOWN THIS WEEK, NATIONAL'S ARGUMENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON GETTING IT RIGHT FOR THOSE 750 BEFORE WE TAKE ANY MORE. BUT ARE WE DOING A GOOD JOB? WELL, OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS, NICOLA KEAN HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING. IBRAHIM OMER LOOKS LIKE AN AVERAGE STUDENT, BUT AT THE AGE MANY NZ TEENAGERS ARE PREPARING TO LEAVE SCHOOL, HE WAS FLEEING FOR HIS LIFE. I WAS TAKEN TO THE NATIONAL SERVICE IN ERITREA, WHICH IS, BY LAW, IT'S 18 MONTHS BUT, UH, ON THE GROUND IT'S ENDLESS AND WITH AN OPEN END. ERITREA HAS ONE OF THE WORST HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS IN THE WORLD, AND THE GOVERNMENT WAS CRACKING DOWN ON STUDENTS. I THOUGHT I WOULD BE SAFE IN SUDAN. I WAS WORKING FOR UNHCR. BUT HE WASN'T SAFE AFTER HE WAS ACCUSED OF SPYING. I WAS DETAINED IN SUDAN AND INTERROGATED AND I COULDN'T GO BACK TO ERITREA WITHOUT BEING EXECUTED. SO, IN 2008, HE CAME HERE AS A REFUGEE ` ONE OF ROUGHLY 750 NZ ACCEPTS EACH YEAR. QUOTA REFUGEES ARE SELECTED FROM APPLICANTS AT UNITED NATIONS CAMPS, AND THEY CAN BRING IN RELATIONS UNDER THE FAMILY REUNIFICATION SCHEME. AS NEW NZ RESIDENTS, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO WELFARE, EDUCATION AND HOUSING, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. AND WHILE THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T PROVIDE PRECISE COSTS, THAT ADDS UP TO AROUND $77,000 PER PERSON FOR THEIR FIRST THREE YEARS. A RESETTLEMENT PROGRAMME BEGAN IN WORLD WAR II, WHEN WE RESPONDED TO INTERNATIONAL CALLS FOR HELP AND ACCEPTED 800 POLES, MOSTLY CHILDREN. BUT THE QUOTA HASN'T CHANGED SINCE 1987, AND CRITICS SAY WITH A FLOOD OF REFUGEES FLEEING THE MIDDLE EAST, THIS TIME WE'RE NOT DOING OUT BIT. BUT PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY HAS BEEN HOLDING FIRM. I THINK IT'S BETTER FOR US TO TAKE THE NUMBER WE'VE BEEN TAKING AND DO A REALLY GOOD JOB. < AS YOU SAY, 750 WON'T CHANGE. THAT'S NOT MY INTENTION TO CHANGE IT, NO, BUT TO DO A GOOD JOB OF THE 750 THAT WE BRING AND THEIR FAMILIES. KEY'S ARGUMENT WAS THAT NZ COULD MAKE LITTLE DIFFERENCE IN A WORLD WITH 4 MILLION REFUGEES. EVEN IF WE WENT TO 1000 OR 1500, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WOULD STILL SAY` COMPARED TO THE 52-PLUS MILLION PEOPLE, THEY WOULD SAY IT'S A PRETTY SMALL... BUT AS PRESSURE HAS GROWN,... EVERYBODY COULD DO MORE. ...AND THE TRAGEDY HAS DEEPENED, HIS POSITION HAS CHANGED. I THINK WE CAN STICK TO THE SCHEDULE. I MEAN, IT'S NOT THAT FAR AWAY NOW. IT'S 2016. NOT RULING OUT LOOKING AT WHETHER THERE IS MORE THAT WE COULD POSSIBLY DO EARLIER AND MAYBE SPECIFICALLY IN RELATION TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING AT THE MOMENT. WHILE THE DEBATE SO FAR THIS YEAR HAS BEEN ABOUT THE NUMBER OF REFUGEES ARRIVING IN NZ, WHAT ABOUT THE SERVICES WE PROVIDE? ARE THEY OUTSTANDING, AS THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS, OR, AS SOME IN THE SECTOR SAY, ARE SOME PEOPLE FALLING THROUGH THE CRACKS? LIKE ALL REFUGEES, OMER SPENT HIS FIRST SIX WEEKS IN NZ HERE AT THE RESETTLEMENT CENTRE IN MANGERE. THEN HE MOVED TO A STATE HOUSE IN LOWER HUTT WITH HELP FROM THE RED CROSS. AFTER THAT, YOU JUST HAVE TO GO OUT THERE AND, YOU KNOW, LIKE, FIGHT ` FIGHT TO GET A JOB, FIGHT TO GET YOURSELF THROUGH. YOU'RE STARTING FROM ZERO, AND YOU HAVE MAKE YOUR WAY UP. AND THERE ARE SOME BASIC SERVICES, BUT NOT ENOUGH. WITH GOOD ENGLISH, HE FOUND A JOB AS A SECURITY GUARD. BUT ONE NIGHT ON HIS WAY TO WORK, HE WAS BEATEN UP AT A TRAIN STATION. THE THIRD ONE CAME AND PUNCHED ME ON THE FACE. AND I WAS BLEEDING, AND THEY TRIED TO KEEP ATTACKING ME, BUT I RAN AWAY FROM THEM. FEELING UNSAFE, HE LEFT HIS JOB AND HIS FLAT. TAYYABA KHAN SAYS SUCH STRUGGLES ARE NOT UNUSUAL. AND THE SIX TO 12 MONTHS' ASSISTANCE THE RED CROSS IS CONTRACTED TO PROVIDE IS NOT ENOUGH. IF IT WAS ENOUGH, ORGANISATIONS LIKE US WOULDN'T EXIST. YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN AROUND FOR OVER 10 YEARS NOW, AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS BECAUSE IT CAN TAKE A LOT LONGER FOR A PERSON OF REFUGEE BACKGROUND TO FEEL A PART OF THE COUNTRY THAT THEY'RE IN NOW. BUT WHILE ORGANISATIONS LIKE CHANGEMAKERS ARE PICKING UP THE SLACK, THEY'RE STRUGGLING THEMSELVES. WE'VE HAD TO UNFORTUNATELY LOSE STAFFING; WE'VE HAD TO CUT OUR OPERATIONAL COSTS SIGNIFICANTLY. JEFF THOMAS RUNS A SPECIALIST MENTAL HEALTH SERVICE FOR REFUGEES. WE'RE AT THE EXTREME END OF THAT TRAUMA, AND THAT'S PROBABLY UP A THIRD OF THE REFUGEES WHO COME HERE WILL BE IN THAT CATEGORY. THEY MAY HAVE WITNESSED A FAMILY MEMBER BEING SHOT OR WORSE. THOSE SORTS OF THINGS HAVE STAYED WITH THEM, AND THEY'VE NOT BEEN ABLE TO WORK THROUGH ANY OF THOSE TRAUMAS IN A REFUGEE CAMP. SO THIS IS THEIR FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO DEAL WITH IT. THE FUNDING FROM WELLINGTON'S HEALTH BOARD HAS NOT BEEN ENOUGH TO GIVE THEM A COST OF LIVING INCREASE FOR THE PAST FOUR YEARS. LIKE CHANGEMAKERS, REFUGEE TRAUMA RECOVERY IS NOW FUNDRAISING TO RAISE MONEY ` AS MUCH AS 20% OF ITS BUDGET. WE'RE NOW WORKING THROUGH OUR RESERVES TO, UM` TO STAND STILL. IF THEY DIDN'T GET ANY SERVICE, THOSE PEOPLE WOULD BE A BURDEN ON US AS A COUNTRY. THEY WOULD... THEY ARE RESIDENTS, BUT THEY WOULD SIMPLY NEVER GET OFF THE BENEFIT, THEY WOULD NEVER MOVE ON, THEY WOULD NEVER LEARN LANGUAGE, THEY WOULD NEVER INTEGRATE. BUT REFUGEES WHO SETTLE IN WELLINGTON AND AUCKLAND ARE LUCKY. IN WAIKATO, MANAWATU AND NELSON, EVEN THOSE WITH THE HIGHEST NEEDS HAVE TO RELY ON MAINSTREAM MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES. TAYYABA KHAN SAYS THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH. THAT IS A BASIC NEED THAT SHOULD EXIST WITHIN THE RESETTLEMENT APPROACH IN ANY COUNTRY. THE RED CROSS' RACHEL O'CONNOR SAYS NZ HAS A WORLD-CLASS RESETTLEMENT PROGRAMME. OUR FOCUS IS TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE BECOME INDEPENDENT, AND SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE QUICKLY CONNECTED TO SERVICES AND TO PARTS OF THE COMMUNITY. BUSHRA ALKHAFAJI BECAME A REFUGEE WHEN SHE WAS 11 WHEN SADDAM HUSSEIN FORCED HER FAMILY OUT OF IRAQ. AFTER 27 YEARS IN AN IRANIAN REFUGEE CAMP, ALKHAFAJI AND HER HUSBAND TURNED TO PEOPLE SMUGGLERS TO HELP THEM GET TO AUSTRALIA. (SPEAKS IRAQI LANGUAGE) INTERPRETER: WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW WAS THE SITUATION, BECAUSE MOST OF THE DAY AND NIGHT WILL BE, LIKE, SCREAMING, CRYING AND PRAYING. INSTEAD, SHE SAILED INTO A POLITICAL CONTROVERSY. REPORTER: THE FIRST WEEK OF THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, AND AUSTRALIA'S TREATMENT OF ASYLUM SEEKERS IS BACK ON THE FRONT PAGE. I DON'T WANT IN AUSTRALIA PEOPLE WHO WOULD THROW THEIR OWN CHILDREN INTO THE SEA. I DON'T. I DON'T THINK ANY AUSTRALIAN DOES. THEY WERE ACCEPTED UNDER NZ'S QUOTA, BUT SHE'S STRUGGLED TO LEARN ENGLISH. UH, BEFORE, LIKE, MY HUSBAND, UH, DIDN'T ALLOW ME TO GO OUT TO READ OR WRITE. BUT THINGS GOT, LIKE, UH... FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS, I'VE BEEN ABLE TO COMMUNICATE, TO TALK, UH, BUT, UM, UH, MY TRAGEDY IS, UH, I'M NOT ABLE TO READ AND WRITE. (SPEAKS IRAQI LANGUAGE) BUT THEN I FOUND THAT HE'S ABUSING MORE AND MORE, SO I SAID, 'I HAVE TO LEAVE.' NOW SHE'S RAISING HER DAUGHTERS ALONE AND WANTS MORE FAMILY AROUND HER. AND I HAVE A BROTHER WHO'S IN IRAN, AND HE'S SUFFERING A LOT ` UH, AS MUCH AS I USED TO SUFFER THERE. SHE'S HOPING ONE DAY HER BROTHER WILL TAKE ONE OF THE 300 PLACES AVAILABLE ANNUALLY FOR FAMILY REUNIFICATION. BUT ONCE THEY ARRIVE, THEY'RE NOT ENTITLED TO THE SAME SERVICES QUOTA REFUGEES RECEIVE. THAT'S WHERE OUR CONCERN IS ` THAT IF THERE ARE PEOPLE FALLING THROUGH THE CRACKS, WE NEED TO SEE WHAT HELP CAN BE PROVIDED. IMMIGRATION NZ SAYS IT'S REVIEWING THE SUPPORT PROVIDED AS PART OF THE 2013 RESETTLEMENT STRATEGY. THE RESEARCH WE'RE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IS WHAT ARE THOSE NEEDS AFTER PEOPLE ARRIVE, AND THEN GIVE ADVICE TO GOVERNMENT ABOUT WHAT SUPPORT THAT MIGHT BE NEEDED TO DO THAT AND WHAT THAT MIGHT COST. THE STRATEGY OUTLINES FIVE OUTCOMES. SO, HOW ARE WE STACKING UP AGAINST THOSE OUTCOMES? ALMOST EVERYONE THE NATION SPOKE TO FOR THIS STORY SAID OVERALL NZ HAS A GOOD SETTLEMENT PROGRAMME, BUT THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT GAPS. WE COULD DO BETTER AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE INVEST RESOURCES IN THE MOST APPROPRIATE PLACES. THE GOVERNMENT IS STILL COLLECTING DATA ON THE RESETTLEMENT STRATEGY. BUT THE BASELINE NUMBERS SHOW THAT 80% OF REFUGEES REMAIN IN STATE HOUSING AFTER FIVE YEARS. AND AFTER TWO YEARS, A QUARTER ARE IN WORK. CLEARLY WE WOULD HOPE TO SEE THAT WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE STRATEGY, WE SEE THOSE FIGURES IMPROVING, BUT THE IMPORTANT PART IS KNOWING WHAT THE ACTUAL RESULTS ARE SO WE CAN LOOK AT THOSE AND SEE WHAT ELSE WE NEED TO DO. FOR ALKHAFAJI, AFTER REUNITING WITH HER BROTHER, HER NEXT WISH IS TO HAVE A JOB. I WOULD LOVE TO, UH, AND I TRIED, BUT THEY SAY TO ME, 'YOUR ENGLISH IS NOT WELL ENOUGH,' AND MOST OF THE OCCUPATIONS WOULD REQUIRE, UH, LIKE, TO BE ABLE TO READ AND WRITE ENGLISH. BUT LIKE HER, KHAN SAYS MANY REFUGEES STRUGGLE TO FIND WORK, EVEN THOSE WHO ARE QUALIFIED HERE. THEY'VE APPLIED FOR JOBS AND THEY'VE NOT EVEN BEEN SHORTLISTED OR INTERVIEWED, AND SO THAT LEAVES A LEVEL OF RESENTMENT IN TERMS OF, 'WELL, WHAT ELSE CAN I DO TO BE A PART OF, YOU KNOW... PART OF THE WORK FIELD AND EARN MONEY AND PUT FOOD ON MY TABLE?' OMER, THOUGH, IS WELL ON HIS WAY. HE WORKED 80-HOUR WEEKS AS A CLEANER TO SAVE MONEY FOR UNIVERSITY, AND HE'S NOW IN HIS SECOND YEAR OF A POLITICAL SCIENCE AND DEVELOPMENT STUDIES DEGREE. I COULD GO TO POLITICS, I COULD GO... I CAN BE A DIPLOMAT. I CAN BE WHATEVER I WANT IN THIS COUNTRY. IT'S AN OPEN COUNTRY, PEOPLE ARE OPEN-MINDED, AND IT OBVIOUSLY OFFERS A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES THAT PEOPLE CAN GO AND GRAB AND USE IT, SO THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO. AND A VERY BIG THANK YOU TO SARGON WARDE, WHO TRANSLATED FOR US IN THAT STORY. WELL, NOW RACE RELATIONS COMMISSIONER DAME SUSAN DEVOY IS HERE WITH ME IN THE STUDIO. GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING, LISA. WE'RE SEEING NOW REFUGEES MARCHING ACROSS EUROPE, HUNDREDS OF THEM MARCHING FOR KILOMETRES. WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT? WELL, I THINK THESE PICTURES THAT WE'VE JUST SEEN ON THIS PROGRAMME WILL JUST ADD TO THE HORROR OF THE ONES WE'VE SEEN DURING THE WEEK. AND I THINK THE GENTLEMAN FROM THE RED CROSS SUMMED IT ALL ` DESPAIR, DISTRESSED PEOPLE. AND IT'S ACTUALLY HARD TO BELIEVE, BECAUSE WE'RE SO REMOVED HERE IN NZ THAT THAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING. WHEN YOU WERE LAST ON THIS PROGRAMME, YOU SAID THAT WE SHOULD UP OUR REFUGEE QUOTA FROM 750 TO A THOUSAND. IN FACT, YOU SAID THAT WOULD BE A GOOD START. BUT YOU'RE UPPING THE ANTE TODAY, AREN'T YOU? WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAPPEN? I THINK THERE'S TWO THINGS THE GOVERNMENT MUST DO. FIRSTLY, I THINK THEY NEED TO TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION TO PUT AN EMERGENCY INTAKE IN PLACE. AND SECONDLY, IN ADDITION TO, THEY MUST INCREASE THE QUOTA. SO WE'RE IN THE REVIEW PROCESS NOW. SO FROM 2016 TO 2019, WE CAN PROGRESSIVELY INCREASE THE QUOTA SO THAT IT'S DOUBLED IN FIVE YEARS' TIME. SO TWICE AS MANY REFUGEES COMING OVER ON THE QUOTA BUT STAGGERED ` IS YOUR VIEW. WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TO MAKE A PROGRESSIVE ADVANCEMENT. WE CAN'T JUST IMMEDIATELY... THE STORY THAT WE'VE JUST SEEN, WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT PROVISION IN PLACE TO GIVE ALL THE REFUGEES THE BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME SO THAT THEY HAVE REALLY GOOD RESETTLEMENT. AND IN TERMS OF AN EMERGENCY INTAKE ` A ONE-OFF EMERGENCY INTAKE ` WHAT KIND OF NUMBER DO YOU THINK WOULD BE APPROPRIATE? I THINK IT'S HARD TO PICK A NUMBER OUT OF THE AIR, BUT IT WAS VERY INTERESTING, WASN'T IT, TO HEAR THE WOMAN FROM THE UNHCR THAT THE GOVERNMENT ARE CONSIDERING A HUNDRED SYRIANS. BUT YOU KNOW, THE REALITY IS THAT WE CAN DO MORE THAN THAT. WE HAVE IN THE PAST. YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD THE EXAMPLE OF THE TAMPA REFUGEES AND OTHERS, AND WE'VE DONE THAT IN THE PAST, AND WE CAN DO IT AGAIN. THE TAMPA REFUGEES WERE PART OF OUR QUOTA AT THE TIME. YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THIS EMERGENCY INTAKE AS EXTRA TO OUR QUOTA, AND A HUNDRED WOULDN'T BE ENOUGH, IN YOUR VIEW, IF IT WERE A HUNDRED? I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT OUR CAPACITY IS, AND I THINK THE PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT WE HAVE THE CAPACITY AND CAPABILITY TO TAKE MORE. AND IT'S OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS AN INTERNATIONAL CITIZEN. LET'S FACE IT, WE HAVE DONE NOTHING IN NEARLY 30 YEARS. SO IF THIS GOVERNMENT COULD DO BOTH OF THOSE THINGS, THEN THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN BE PROUD OF AND WE COULD ALL BE PROUD OF AS A COUNTRY. LABOUR'S SAYING ABOUT 750 IN AN EMERGENCY INTAKE. WOULD YOU THINK THAT'S ABOUT THE RIGHT NUMBER? I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO, AS I SAY, GIVE THESE PEOPLE GOOD RESETTLEMENT. BUT I THINK WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING. AND 750 IS NOT A LOT, IS IT? HAVE WE EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS SINCE WORLD WAR II? IF WE DO DO THAT, THAT IS GOING TO COST US. SO THE FIGURES YOU ARE SUGGESTING WILL COST US. HOW DO WE PAY FOR IT? WELL, I THINK WE CAN FIND IN OUR COUNTRY THE WAYS TO PAY FOR LOTS OF THINGS, YOU KNOW? I DON'T WANT TO DRAG IT UP, BUT $25 MILLION FOR A REFERENDUM FOR A FLAG; WE CAN BAIL OUT FAILED FINANCE COMPANIES. I THINK IF WE NEED TO FIND THE MONEY, WE CAN. SO YOU WOULD SUGGEST THAT THERE'S SOME EXPENDITURE WE COULD REDIRECT? MOST DEFINITELY. IF THERE'S A NEED, WE FIND A WAY. WE DIDN'T EXPECT TO HAVE AN EARTHQUAKE IN CHRISTCHURCH, AND WE FOUND THE MONEY TO REDIRECT TO THAT. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE WILL LOOK BACK IN 30 YEARS AND SAY AS NZERS, 'WHAT DID WE DO IN THE WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS SINCE WORLD WAR II?' WELL, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MORE MONEY, THE NGOS, THEY NEED MORE MONEY TOO, DON'T THEY? I MEAN, THEY'RE FUNDRAISING FOR MOST OF THEIR BUDGETS. OH, IT'S APPALLING. YOU KNOW, I WORK WITH TIRELESS ADVOCATES AND PASSIONATE CAMPAIGNERS ` NOT ONLY THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE CALLING TO INCREASE THE QUOTA AND HAVE BEEN DOING FOR SOME TIME, BUT ALSO THOSE PEOPLE WHO ADVOCATE ON BEHALF OF REFUGEES AND THE PEOPLE THAT WE'VE SEEN ON YOUR PROGRAMME THAT ACTUALLY PROVIDE THE SERVICES AND SUPPORT. SO, THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO REALISE THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT INCREASING THE QUOTA AND BRINGING MORE REFUGEES IN ON AN EMERGENCY INTAKE. WHAT ARE THE SERVICES AND SUPPORT WE'RE GIVING THEM? AND WE NEED TO HAVE REALLY GOOD, IN-DEPTH, CONTINUED SUPPORT. WE NEED TO GIVE THEM ACCESS TO THE SERVICES THAT THEY NEED, AND THEY MAY BE BEYOND WHAT ORDINARY, EVERYDAY NZERS NEED. IT IS A GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITY, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE WELCOME OF REFUGEES IS UP TO ALL NZERS. YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO OPEN OUR HEARTS AND OUR MINDS. AND THAT'S THE CHANGE THAT I'VE SEEN IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS ` IS, REALLY, EVERYDAY NZERS. WHAT DO YOU SAY IN RESPONSE TO PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT THERE'S LOTS OF REFUGEES WAITING FOR PLACEMENT TO GO TO COUNTRIES, THEY'RE WAITING IN CAMPS; WHY SHOULD THE PEOPLE FROM THIS PARTICULAR CRISIS JUMP THE QUEUE? WOULD THAT BE FAIR? WELL, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, NZ HAS A SAY IN WHERE REFUGEES WOULD COME FROM. GENERALLY, WE ARE DIRECTED BY THE GUIDANCE FROM THE UNHCR, YOU KNOW, IN OUR ANNUAL QUOTA PROCESS. BUT THIS IS EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES. THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE SYRIAN WAR MEANS THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE IN DIRE NEED. AND I THINK THAT'S ON COMPASSIONATE GROUNDS THAT WE TAKE THOSE PEOPLE. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING, DAME SUSAN DEVOY. AND WE SHOULD MENTION THAT THE NATION ASKED TO SPEAK TO IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOODHOUSE. WE ALSO ASKED TO SPEAK TO FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER MURRAY MCCULLY. BOTH DECLINED OUR INVITATION TO APPEAR ON THE PROGRAMME. WELL, AFTER THE BREAK, TORBEN AKEL GOES TO DOWNTOWN CHRISTCHURCH TO FIND OUT WHERE THE REBUILD IS AT FIVE YEARS AFTER THE CITY'S FIRST BIG QUAKE. BUT FIRST, NO PRIZES FOR GUESSING WHAT JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO'S BIG QUESTIONS WERE THIS WEEK. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` SHOULD WE TAKE MORE REFUGEES? YES. THE NEXT BIG QUESTION ` HAS THE FLAG REFERENDUM BEEN TIMED TO COINCIDE WITH THE RUGBY WORLD CUP JUST TO BOOST THE CHANCES OF THE SILVER FERN? GIVEN JOHN KEY'S BEHAVIOUR AT WORLD CUPS, JEREMY, WE'RE MORE LIKELY TO END UP WITH THREE FLAGS AWKWARDLY SQUEEZED INTO ONE. IS THERE PERHAPS A BRONZE FERN WE CAN USE? COS THIS SILVER FERN SEEMS TO BE CAUSING ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS. I THINK I HAVE A SOLUTION FOR THIS FLAG SITUATION. WHAT'S THE SOLUTION, PAUL? WE'RE FACED WITH FOUR TERRIBLE OPTIONS, AND WE NEED TO CHOOSE ONE. EXACTLY. WELL, THE LABOUR PARTY MANAGED IT WITH THEIR LEADERSHIP ELECTION, DIDN'T THEY? THEY'VE GOT EXPERIENCE. WHY DON'T WE LET THEM DECIDE? SO WE COULD END UP WITH A LITTLE FLAG. POINT OF DIFFERENCE. TRUE. IN OTHER NEWS IT LOOKS LIKE HAVING MAURICE WILLIAMSON AT SKY CITY IS THE BIGGEST GAMBLE OF ALL. YEAH, SHAME ON HIM, STEPPING OVER THE LINE LIKE THAT JUST TO GET A FEW CHEAP LAUGHS. 7DAYS ` BACK FRIDAY OCTOBER THE 9TH, 9.30 ON TV3. ANY NEWS WE'VE MISSED? WELL, THE NATIONAL PARTY HAS OPENED AN OFFICE IN KERIKERI. REALLY? I THOUGHT THEY NEEDED THAT HOLE IN THE ROCK FOR BOAT TRIPS. ONLY AT HIGH TIDE. AH. YOU'RE WITH THE NATION, AND FRIDAY WAS THE FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE FIRST BIG EARTHQUAKE THAT HIT CANTERBURY ` THE MAGNITUDE 7.1 QUAKE THAT CAUSED WIDESPREAD DAMAGE AND WAS THE PRELUDE TO THE AFTERSHOCK THAT KILLED 185 PEOPLE FIVE MONTHS LATER. TODAY CHRISTCHURCH IS STILL UNDER REPAIR, AND NOWHERE MORE VISIBLY THAN THE CBD. WHAT'S THE PLAN, AND WHY THE HOLD-UP? OUR REPORTER TORBEN AKEL ASKED THE CURRENT MAYOR LIANNE DALZIEL AND HER TWO PREDECESSORS. HERE'S A REMINDER OF WHAT CENTRAL CHRISTCHURCH LOOKED LIKE IN THE YEARS BEFORE THE BIG QUAKES ` A CITY THAT WAS FAMOUS FOR ITS MANY HERITAGE BUILDINGS ` THE JEWEL IN THE CROWN, ITS ICONIC CATHEDRAL. BELLS PEAL ALL THAT CHANGED THOUGH EARLY ON A SATURDAY IN SEPTEMBER FIVE YEARS AGO... GLASS SHATTER ...WHEN THIS BECAME CHRISTCHURCH'S NEW REALITY. SIREN WAILS THE START OF YEARS OF DEMOLITION, HASTENED BY THE CATASTROPHIC AFTERSHOCK OF FEBRUARY 2011. PANICKED CONVERSATIONS TODAY, THE CATHEDRAL STILL SITS IN RUINS, BUT AROUND IT, CENTRAL CHRISTCHURCH IS SLOWLY RISING AGAIN. EXCAVATORS ARE BEING REPLACED BY CRANES LIKE THOSE BEHIND ME, BUT FEW IN CHRISTCHURCH WOULD AGREE THAT THE REBUILD'S HAPPENING FAST ENOUGH. SO IF NOT, WHY NOT? ITS THREE MAYORS SINCE 1998. THEIR ANSWERS SOON. BUT FIRST WHAT WAS PROMISED FOR THE CBD AND WHAT'S BEEN DELIVERED TO DATE. THE 'CHRISTCHURCH CENTRAL RECOVERY PLAN', WITH THIS BLUEPRINT FOR A MODERN CITY. ENTIRE BLOCKS SET ASIDE FOR SPECIFIC PURPOSES, WITH 16 SO-CALLED ANCHOR PROJECTS, INCLUDING A CONVENTION CENTRE SPORTS FACILITY AND STADIUM, SIX OF WHICH, IT WAS ESTIMATED, COULD BE FINISHED BY THE END OF THIS YEAR, AND FIVE MORE BY THE END OF NEXT YEAR. SO FAR, THOUGH, ONLY TWO HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY SIGNED OFF ` THIS BUS DEPOT, TWO WEEKS AGO... IT REAFFIRMS THE GOVERNMENT'S COMMITMENT TO CHRISTCHURCH. ...AND THE HAGLEY OVAL, LAST YEAR. THE MARGARET MAHY PLAYGROUND IS SET TO OPEN BY CHRISTMAS, AND THE JUSTICE AND EMERGENCY PRECINCT BUILDING IS ON-TARGET TOO. OTHER ANCHOR PROJECTS, THOUGH, HAVE HAD THEIR ESTIMATED COMPLETION DATES PUSHED OUT BY UP TO FOUR YEARS. WE FOUND ONE RESIDENT WHO'S HAPPY WITH THE PACE OF THE REBUILD,... THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH THAT CAN BE DONE AT ANY ONE TIME. ...BUT PLENTY OF OTHERS WHO AREN'T. IT'S ACTUALLY BEEN QUITE SLOW AROUND EVERYWHERE. IT STILL HASN'T REALLY HAD THAT MUCH FINISHED. YOU WONDER SOMETIMES WHETHER IT'S EVER GONNA HAPPEN. IT IS QUITE SLOW. I DON'T KNOW THE REASON WHY. SO WHY IS IT? WE ASKED THE MAYOR, LIANNE DALZIEL. THIS HAS BEEN A DISASTER OF SUCH A MAGNITUDE, THAT I DON'T THINK PEOPLE REALLY FULLY APPRECIATED HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE TO GET THINGS ON TRACK. YOU KNOW, WE'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME GETTING THE UNDERGROUND INFRASTRUCTURE RIGHT. SO WE'VE PRETTY MUCH COMPLETED THAT WORK INSIDE THE FOUR AVENUES. THERE'S STILL A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE, BUT THAT WILL ENABLE ALL OF THE BUILDINGS, AS YOU CAN SEE, TO COME OUT OF THE GROUND. DALZIEL ADMITS FRUSTRATION AT SOME OF THE COMPLETION DATES BEING PUSHED OUT, NAMELY THE CONVENTION CENTRE TO 2019 AND THE SPORTS FACILITY TO 2020. BUT THEN HERS IS A COUNCIL FINDING IT HARD TO FINANCE ITS SHARE OF THE COSTS, HENCE HER STATEMENT THIS WEEK THAT SHE'D RATHER DELAY PARTS OF THE REBUILD THAN CAUSE RATEPAYERS TOO MUCH PAIN. ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE PACE OF IT? WELL, I MEAN, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY ` IF YOU'VE COME TO ASK THE MAYOR OF CHRISTCHURCH TO SAY THAT SHE IS NOT SATISFIED, THEN YOU'RE NOT GONNA HEAR THAT FROM ME. YOU WILL, THOUGH, HEAR IT FROM HER TWO MOST RECENT PREDECESSORS, WITH GARRY MOORE LAYING THE BLAME WITH CERA AND ITS MINISTER, GERRY BROWNLEE. THERE'S A SMALL, STRONG, POWERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO'VE GOT MOST OF THE CONTROL, LED BY A MINISTER WHO'S GOT ABSOLUTE CONTROL, AND STALIN WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY RAPT IF HE HAD THE SORT OF POWER THAT THE MINISTER OF EARTHQUAKE RECOVERY HAS GOT. AND I BELIEVE THE MINISTER'S STILL QUITE KEEN TO KEEP THE POWER OF VETO, AND HE SHOULD NOT HAVE IT. THIS CITY NEEDS TO ACTUALLY HAVE ALL SECTORS WORKING REALLY REALLY HARD TOGETHER, BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF THE WELLINGTON BUREAUCRATS ARE UNREALISTIC ABOUT WHAT CAN AND CAN'T BE DONE. MOORE'S SUCCESSOR, THE MAN WHO WAS MAYOR THROUGHOUT THE QUAKES, AND KNIGHTED FOR HIS EFFORTS, SIR BOB PARKER, AGREES THE GOVERNMENT STOLE THE SHOW... AND COUNCIL WAS SIDELINED. ...WITH A GRANDER PLAN THAN HIS COUNCIL HAD FIRST ENVISAGED. CERTAINLY THE SCALE WAS BIGGER THAN WE'D IMAGINED. THE STADIUM WAS TO MOVE INTO THE CENTRE OF THE CITY; IT WAS TO BE COVERED. THE CONVENTION CENTRE WAS TO MOVE FROM ITS SITE THAT WE'D PROPOSED INTO THE CENTRAL CITY AND BE CONSIDERABLY BIGGER. BUT THAT'S WHAT GENERATED A HUGE BUZZ AND A HUGE AMOUNT OF EXCITEMENT FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE CITY. HE SAYS THE DELAYS EVER SINCE REFLECT THE COMMERCIAL, LEGAL AND LOGISTICAL COMPLEXITIES OF THE MASSIVE TASKS THAT'VE BEEN SET. I THINK TO SOME DEGREE THE THAT GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSIBILITY HERE IS TO ENSURE THOSE PROJECTS ARE DELIVERED. BUT WE'RE GETTING MESSAGES THAT ARE CONFUSING US A LITTLE BIT AROUND THAT ` YOU KNOW PROJECTS MIGHT BE SMALLER; THEY MIGHT BE DELAYED; MAYBE THEY WON'T HAPPEN, SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING; AND THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING FOR THE CITY. TODAY HE'S THE CHAIR OF A PRIVATE DEVELOPMENT FIRM CALLED 'NEW URBAN GROUP' ` A KIWI-CHINESE CONSORTIUM THAT'S JUST LOST THE BID TO BUILD ON THIS SITE ` THE $800M EAST FRAME HOUSING DEVELOPMENT. THE WINNING CONCEPT, BY FLETCHERS, WILL HOUSE 2200 PEOPLE ` A FRACTION OF WHAT MOORE SAYS IS NEEDED TO REVIVE THE INNER CITY ` AND EXCESSIVELY PRICED TOO. WELL, WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT 'AFFORDABLE' HOUSING IN THE EAST FRAME, THEY START AT 450,000. AND, SORRY BROTHER, THAT AIN'T AFFORDABLE! I THINK THAT WE NEED 20,000 TO 30,000 PEOPLE LIVING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THE BUILDING OPTIONS THAT THEY'VE GOT RIGHT NOW ARE NECESSARILY THE OPTIONS THAT WILL ENTICE PEOPLE TO LIVE IN THE MIDDLE. SIR BOB ADDS THAT THE DELAYS AND SOME OF THE DECISIONS ARE PUTTING BUSINESSES OFF. I WAS TALKING TO SOME CONSTRUCTION PEOPLE THE OTHER DAY WHO ARE SAYING, 'AND WE'VE GOT A LARGE ORGANISATION THAT WE'VE BUILT UP FOR THIS PROCESS, 'AND IN ORDER TO SUSTAIN THAT WE'RE NOW ACTUALLY GOING TO AUCKLAND. 'WE'RE LOOKING AT OPPORTUNITIES UP THERE.' THERE HAS BEEN SPECULATION THAT THE OVERALL REBUILD MAY BE AT OR NEAR ITS PEAK, AS ILLUSTRATED BY THIS RECENT GRAPH BY WESTPAC. NOTE, THOUGH, HOW NON-RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION KEEPS RISING UNTIL 2017. DALZIEL HAS HIGH HOPES FOR THE GOVERNMENT'S NEW FIVE-YEAR PLAN TO HAND RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CBD REBUILD BACK TO THE COUNCIL. I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE NEXT STAGE, THOUGH, THIS REGENERATION PHASE THAT WE'RE TALKING TO CENTRAL GOVERNMENT ABOUT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY BUILD THE KIND OF MOMENTUM THAT PEOPLE WANT TO SEE INSIDE THE CBD. CERTAINLY, THERE IS A SENSE OF GATHERING MOMENTUM, LARGELY THANKS TO PRIVATE-SECTOR CONSTRUCTION. THIS IS IN THE NEW RETAIL PRECINCT, AND THIS, THE REINVENTED HOSPITALITY STRIP, BESIDE THE RIVER AVON. SO HOW MUCH LONGER, THEN, MUST CANTABS WAIT FOR A FUNCTIONAL, FILLED-OUT INNER CITY? WE'RE PROBABLY STILL LOOKING AT AT LEAST FIVE, SIX, MAYBE SEVEN YEARS FOR SOME OF THESE PROJECTS TO BE COMPLETED. IT'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE START LIVING AND WORKING AND PLAYING INSIDE THE CBD, AND WE'LL SEE THAT, STANDING HERE IN LESS THAN 10 YEARS' TIME. I WOULD SAY THAT THE CBD WILL TAKE 30 YEARS. WHY SO LONG? THEY'VE TORN DOWN SO MUCH, THAT IT WILL TAKE THAT LENGTH OF TIME TO REBUILD IT. IT TOOK 160 YEARS, 16 DECADES, TO BUILD THIS CITY. WE'RE NOT GONNA REBUILD IT IN 16 DAYS OR EVEN 16 YEARS. I'LL NEVER SEE THE END OF IT. KIDS AT SCHOOL NOW MAY WELL, BUT THEN OF COURSE, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT A CITY IS ALWAYS A WORK IN PROGRESS. IT'S NEVER FINISHED. NO DOUBT A VIEW THAT WAS SHARED BY CHRISTCHURCH'S FOUNDERS WHO NOT ONLY BUILT IT FROM SCRATCH, BY HAND, BUT ALSO SURVIVED A SIMILAR-SIZED QUAKE EARLY ON A SATURDAY IN SEPTEMBER, 1888. THEN, AS NOW, THEY PICKED UP THE PIECES AND STARTED BUILDING AGAIN. OH, HEAR YE! HEAR YE! CHRISTCHURCH IS ON THE WAY UP, UP, UP! AFTER THE BREAK, IT'S THE PANEL ` SIMON WILSON, DARIEN FENTON AND JAMIE WHYTE, SO DO STAY WITH US. WELCOME BACK. IT'S TIME TO HEAR FROM OUR PANEL TODAY ` FORMER LABOUR MP DARIEN FENTON, WHO'S THE ORGANISING DIRECTOR FOR THE MEAT WORKERS UNION; METRO EDITOR SIMON WILSON, AND FORMER ACT LEADER JAMIE WHYTE. FIRST OF ALL, THOUGH, CONGRATULATIONS, SIMON, ON WINNING METRO THE 'TOP CURRENT AFFAIRS MAGAZINE OF THE YEAR' AT THE MPA AWARDS. THANK YOU, THANK YOU. IT WAS TERRIFIC. NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION, REFUGEES. THIS MORNING, WE'RE HEARING FROM THE UNHCR THAT NZ POSSIBLY HAS AGREED TO TAKE 100 EXTRA REFUGEES. NO 'YES' OR 'NO' FROM THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE AT THIS STAGE, BUT THEY'RE NOT DENYING IT. WOULD THAT BE THE RIGHT FIGURE ` 100? NO, I THINK` OH, I'M SORRY. WELL, NO, IT'S NOT. IT'S QUITE PATHETIC WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT. AND HAVING SEEN YOUR SHOW THIS MORNING AND THE 60 MILLION REFUGEES IN THE WORLD POURING ACROSS THE BORDER FROM SYRIA, COUNTRIES LIKE TURKEY AND LEBANON AND GEORGIA TAKING 800,000, 100 IS REALLY NOT GONNA CUT IT FOR NZ. WE DO NEED TO LIFT OUR GAME. SO, QUICKLY, ANYONE HERE THINK 100 IS ENOUGH? NO. OK, IS THE GOVERNMENT AT RISK OF LOOKING OUT OF STEP WITH PUBLIC OPINION ON THIS AT THIS POINT? THE GOVERNMENT'S BEEN OUT OF STEP WITH PUBLIC OPINION RIGHT THROUGH THE WEEK ON THIS, AND IF THE HUNDRED FIGURE IS RIGHT, THAT'S A MOVE IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, OF COURSE. BUT THEY ARE SERIOUSLY OUT OF STEP. IF THIS WENT TO A VOTE IN PARLIAMENT, THEY WOULD LOSE THE VOTE. THEY WON'T LET THAT HAPPEN, OF COURSE, BUT THEY WOULD LOSE. FEEDBACK ON SOCIAL MEDIA IS THAT WE'RE` IT'S JUST PLACATION, IT'S PATHETIC, THE BARE MINIMUM. ONE PERSON HAS SAID IT'S A GOOD FIRST STEP, BUT IT'S ONLY A FIRST STEP. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, JAMIE? I DO. I THINK WE COULD LET IN THOUSANDS. AND THE` HOW MANY? HOW MANY THOUSANDS DO YOU THINK IS REALISTIC? WELL, PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT BY DOING SUCH A GOOD JOB, IN THEORY, OF LOOKING AFTER REFUGEES WHEN THEY ARRIVE, WE MAKE IT VERY EXPENSIVE. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE CLAMOURING TO GET OUT OF THOSE DREADFUL PLACES WOULD SAY, 'DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. DON'T DO SUCH A GOOD JOB. JUST LET ME IN.' AND THEN IT WOULDN'T BE SUCH A BURDEN. THOSE PEOPLE WOULD BE FAR BETTER OFF IN NZ EVEN IF WE DIDN'T DO A GREAT JOB OF LOOKING AFTER THEM THAN THEY ARE WHERE THEY ARE. SO I WOULD` THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU'RE GONNA MAKE TOO MUCH OF A FUSS ABOUT HOW WELL YOU DO THE JOB, YOU DRIVE UP THE COST AND YOU MAKE IT TOO DIFFICULT TO HELP THESE PEOPLE. AND YET WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT IT BEING EXPENSIVE, THE FIGURE WE HEARD BEFORE ` 77,000 OVER THREE YEARS ` THAT IS A PRETTY LOW FIGURE. THAT'S RIGHT. IT IS MORE THAN THAT, ISN'T IT? IT'S MORE THAN BEING ABOUT AN EMERGENCY INTAKE. IT'S ABOUT LIFTING THE QUOTA. AND THAT DISCUSSION'S BEEN AROUND FOR YEARS NOW. IT'S 30 YEARS SINCE OUR QUOTA WAS SET AT 750 REFUGEES. THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH EITHER, SO WE NEED TO DO THAT. WE NEED TO HAVE AN EMERGENCY INTAKE, BUT WE ALSO DO NEED TO LOOK AT THE FUNDING AND HOW WE SUPPORT REFUGEES COMING IN. I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT PEOPLE SHOULD GO TO THE MANGERE CENTRE AND MEET REFUGEES AND SEE WHO THEY ARE. AND OFTEN, THEY'RE CHILDREN, AND THEY'RE CHILDREN THAT HAVE COME FROM AWFUL EXPERIENCES, WHO'VE SEEN THEIR PARENTS AND FAMILY MEMBERS SHOT, WHO'VE SEEN THEIR MOTHERS AND SISTERS RAPED. GO AND SEE THEM AND SEE WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, NOT JUST WAIT FOR PHOTO OF A LITTLE BOY ON A BEACH. THERE'S ANOTHER THING TO ADD INTO THIS CONVERSATION. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BE A BURDEN ON SOCIETY FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES; WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE HIGHLY MOTIVATED AND GOING TO BE VERY PRODUCTIVE. AND THE RECORD IS THAT. WE SAW THE EXAMPLE OF MR OMER, WHO OBVIOUSLY` I MEAN, WORKING 80 HOURS A WEEKS AS A CLEANER AND PUTTING HIMSELF THROUGH UNIVERSITY. THAT'S INSPIRING, ISN'T IT? IT'S TERRIFIC. THEY'RE GOING TO GROW THE ECONOMY, THOSE PEOPLE. I SHOULD SAY, ON OUR TWITTER PANEL TODAY, TRACEY BARNETT SAYING THAT ` AND SHE'S AN EXPERT COMMENTATOR IN REFUGEE AREAS ` SHE THINKS THE UNHCR WOMAN HAS MISSPOKEN. BUT EVEN SO, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS, IF WE'RE LOOKING AT THE HUNDRED, SUSAN DEVOY THERE WAS SAYING TO US, 'YOU NEED TO DOUBLE IT,' AND CALLING ON THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE A ONE-OFF EMERGENCY INTAKE, ALTHOUGH SHE WOULDN'T GO THERE IN TERMS OF PUTTING A NUMBER ON IT. AGAIN, EMERGENCY INTAKE? SIMON? I THINK THAT'S RIGHT. WILL THE GOVERNMENT USE THAT, THOUGH? ARE WE GONNA HEAR AN ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THEM FOR A ONE-OFF INTAKE? I WOULD EXPECT THAT WE WILL, AND WE'LL HEAR IT BEFORE THE LABOUR AND GREEN PARTIES HAVE A CHANCE TO PUT THEIR BILLS IN FRONT OF PARLIAMENT. SO THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN PRETTY SOON. BUT I THOUGHT WHAT SUSAN DEVOY DID WAS REALLY ESTABLISH A BOTTOM LINE ` THE MINIMUM OF WHAT WE COULD DO AS AN EMERGENCY INTAKE AND IT DOUBLING OVER THREE YEARS. SURELY ANYTHING LESS IS REPREHENSIBLE. BUT HOW MUCH SWAY IS SHE GONNA HAVE, YOU KNOW? IS SHE LISTENED TO? WE'LL SEE. IT'S PART OF THE MOUNTING PRESSURE. I THINK SHE'S JUST ONE VOICE, BUT THERE ARE MANY. AND I SUSPECT THE GOVERNMENT WILL FEEL THAT IT HAS TO DO SOMETHING NOW. I MEAN, A HUNDRED SEEMS TO BE MEAGRE, BUT THEY'RE` I DON'T KNOW WHAT REALITY THERE IS IN THIS IDEA, BUT THEY'RE CLEARLY FEELING SOME PRESSURE. AND I'M SURE THEY ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING WILL BE MY GUESS. SIMON'S MENTIONED THE LABOUR AND GREEN'S BILL THAT WOULD` LABOUR'S SAYING 750 EMERGENCY TAKE-IN, AND THEN I THINK THE GREENS ARE SAYING A THOUSAND. BUT THAT'S NEVER GOING TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY, IS IT? SOMEONE'S GOING TO... IT ONLY TAKES ONE MP TO SAY` THAT'S RIGHT. THE RULES OF PARLIAMENT SAY IT CAN BE BLOCKED. IT DOES ADD TO THE PRESSURE, YOU KNOW. IT DOES ADD TO THE PRESSURE THAT SIMON WAS TALKING ABOUT AND JAMIE'S TALKING ABOUT ` THE PRESSURE THAT'S BEEN BUILDING UP OVER THE LAST WEEK. IS IT A CLEVER MOVE, THEN? WELL, I OFTEN THINK THAT THE ISSUE OF REFUGEES SHOULD BE BEYOND POLITICS, ACTUALLY. YOU KNOW, IT'S A SHAME THAT WE CAN'T HAVE PARTIES GET TOGETHER AND AGREE ON THESE THINGS. AND WE'VE SEEN IT IN THE HISTORY BEFORE. WE DID IT POST-WORLD WAR II. WE BROUGHT IN PEOPLE WITHOUT THERE BEING A CONVENTION THAT SAID THAT WE HAD TO OR THAT WE WERE REQUIRED TO TAKE OUR QUOTA. AND ACTUALLY, WE SAW IT UNDER THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT IN 1999 WHEN THEY BROUGHT IN REFUGEES FROM` AND ADDITIONAL INTAKE FROM KOSOVO, BECAUSE OF THE SITUATION THERE. THIS IS A REALLY BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE AS A PEOPLE, ISN'T IT? I MEAN, WE TALK ABOUT THE FLAG AND WHAT THE FLAG MEANS AND WHAT IT SYMBOLIZES AND PEOPLE ARGUING ABOUT WHETHER IT'S MONEY WELL SPENT AND SO ON. WHO WE ARE AS A PEOPLE WHEN WE ARE FACED WITH, AS SUSAN DEVOY SAID, THE LARGEST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN THE WORLD SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR, FOR US TO BE QUIBBLING ` QUIBBLING, WHICH IS ALL WE'RE DOING AT THE MOMENT ` IS JUST SO APPALLING. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO THINK THAT NZERS AS A WHOLE WILL BE HAPPY WITH THAT. WE NEED A GOVERNMENT THAT WILL LEAD FROM THE FRONT. YES. POLITICIANS DON'T LIKE TO GIVE MORAL LEADERSHIP UNLESS THEY'RE FORCED INTO IT, BUT WE NEED TO FORCE THEM INTO IT. WE NEED TO BE SAYING, 'IT'S YOUR JOB TO STAND UP AND DO WHAT'S RIGHT HERE.' IT'S FUNNY THAT YOU BRING THE FLAG UP, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, IN THE WEEK THAT WE'RE SEEING ALL THESE HORRENDOUS PICTURES FROM OVERSEAS SHOWING THESE PEOPLE MARCHING TO GOODNESS KNOWS WHERE, TRYING TO FIND A NEW HOME, WE'VE BEEN CONSIDERING OUR FLAG. WE'VE GOT FOUR OPTIONS OUT THERE NOW. I JUST WANNA QUICKLY GO THROUGH ALL OF YOU. ANY OF THOSE OPTIONS APPEAL? NO. NOT AT ALL. NO. WHY NOT? WELL, THERE ARE TWO ANSWERS TO THAT. ONE IS I DON'T WANT A NEW FLAG AT ALL. BUT THE SECOND ONE IS I'D PREFER THE` WHAT'S IT CALLED? RED PEAK? YES. I PREFER THAT. IF WE HAVE TO HAVE A NEW ONE, I DON'T WANT ANY OF THE FOUR. FOR ME IT'S EITHER THE ALL BLACKS OR AIR NZ ` OF THOSE FOUR FLAGS. TOO COMMERCIAL, THEN. YEAH, TOO COMMERCIAL. IT'S A BRANDING EXERCISE, AND I DON'T AGREE WITH EITHER. I AGREE WITH JAMIE. I LIKE THE PEAK AS WELL. WE HAD A CHANCE TO DO SOMETHING REALLY SPECIAL AND DIFFERENT AND NEW, AND WE` THE GOVERNMENT'S BLOWN IT, ACTUALLY. THE KEY IS THAT WE GET BUY-IN ON THE PROCESS, AND THE PROCESS NOW NEEDS TO BE CHANGED AND DEVELOPED SO THAT THERE CAN BE THE DEVELOPMENT OF GOOD IDEAS AROUND SOME CORE THINGS LIKE KORU, THE SOUTHERN CROSS ` WHATEVER THOSE THINGS ARE GOING TO BE. BUT WE'RE LOCKED INTO A PROCESS NOW` WE'RE NOT LOCKED INTO A PROCESS. THE PANEL'S SAYING THAT THE PEAK ` SORRY TO BREAK EVERYONE'S HEART ` IS NOT GONNA BE` WE'RE NOT LOCKED INTO THIS PROCESS. THIS IS JUST A PARLIAMENTARY DECISION THAT'S BEEN MADE. WE'RE NOT LOCKED INTO ANYTHING. WE CAN EVOLVE THIS PROCESS. IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT CANADA DID, THERE WAS A CONSENSUS DEVELOPED AROUND A MAPLE LEAF, AND THEN THEY GOT HARD AT WORK TO WORK OUT THE BEST MAPLE LEAF. WE SHOULD BE DOING THAT. ARE ANY OF THE ONES YOU'VE SEEN OUTSIDE OF THE FOUR AS GOOD AS A MAPLE LEAF? BECAUSE THAT'S INSTANTLY RECOGNISABLE, ISN'T IT? IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ANYONE ELSE'S FLAGS. PERSONAL TASTE, I THINK THERE ARE ONE OR TWO OUT THERE, BUT THAT'S A PERSONAL TASTE THING. IT'S THE PROCESS THAT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL THING RATHER THAN GOING, 'LET'S MAKE IT THIS ONE.' JAMIE? WELL,... I JUST THINK THE WHOLE THING'S SO RIDICULOUS. ALL LAUGH CANADA DIDN'T HAVE A FLAG, REALLY. IT HAD A LOT OF ISSUES AROUND THE FLAG. THEY'VE GOT A FLAG. NO, THEY FLEW THE UNION JACK OVER THEIR PARLIAMENT FOR` YOU KNOW? FLAGS SHOULD JUST BE THERE. YOU DON'T THINK ABOUT YOUR GODDAMN FLAG. THE AMERICAN'S DON'T FRET ABOUT THEIR FLAG. THE REST` DON'T FRET ABOUT YOUR FLAG. IT'S A SIGN THAT YOU'RE AN IMMATURE NATION HAVING SOME KIND OF IDENTITY CRISIS. IF WE REALLY HAD COME OF AGE AND WE'RE GROWN UP, WE WOULDN'T BE DOING THIS. I THINK WE'RE GONNA BE SPENDING A BIT MORE TIME TALKING ABOUT THE FLAG GOING INTO THE FUTURE. BUT STICK AROUND. WE'LL BE BACK IN A JIFFY WITH MORE. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH 'THE NATION' AND TALKING TO OUR PANEL. DARIEN, MAURICE WILLIAMSON IS IN TROUBLE THIS WEEK FOR MISSPEAKING AT A CONFERENCE THAT HE WAS MC'ING. APPARENTLY HE WAS TELLING RATHER SEXIST JOKES, UM, THAT WERE OFFENSIVE TO GAY MEN AND WOMEN. WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID, BUT HE'S NOW APOLOGISED AND SAID HE OVERSTEPPED THE MARK. IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? WELL, MAURICE HAS GOT A VERY STRANGE SENSE OF HUMOUR. I WORKED WITH HIM FOR NINE YEARS IN PARLIAMENT. SOMETIMES HE MADE ME LAUGH, I HAVE TO SAY. BUT THE THING I DIDN'T GET WAS THE BLONDE WIG AND THE SUPERMAN COSTUME. I WASN'T SURE WHAT WAS ABOUT. LOOK, OF COURSE IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE TO BE DOING THAT IN THIS DAY AND AGE, TO BE MAKING THOSE KIND OF COMMENTS, AND, YOU KNOW, HE'S APOLOGISED, OK. HE WAS DRESSED UP BECAUSE IT WAS THEMED. IT WAS A SUPERHEROES KIND OF THEME. BUT IN THIS DAY AND AGE, WOULD YOU EXPECT THAT BEHAVIOUR FROM A SITTING MP? I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD EXPECT IT FROM ANYBODY. AND WHEN YOU SAY OFFENSIVE TO WOMEN AND TO GAY MEN, SURELY IT'S OFFENSIVE TO EVERYBODY, UM, THOSE PEOPLE HE'S MAKING HIS JOKES ABOUT, BUT WE'RE ALL OFFENDED. WELL, I DIDN'T HEAR THEM, SO I'M NOT OFFENDED. UH, MAYBE THEY WERE OFFENSIVE, BUT I'M NOT SITTING HERE IN A STATE OF OFFENCE. I DON'T` WHEN PEOPLE MAKE THESE KIND OF OFF COMMENTS, THE THING YOU'VE ALWAYS GOT TO ASK YOURSELF IS, 'DO I THINK THAT THE PERSON INVOLVED REALLY IS SEXIST OR HOMOPHOBIC OR WHATEVER IT IS?' YOU KNOW, IS IT`? AND THAT'S` THAT'S NORMALLY HOW YOU MAKE YOUR JUDGEMENT ABOUT WHETHER YOU GET ANGRY OR NOT OR WHETHER IT WAS JUST A STUPID MISTAKE. SO IF THERE'S NO INTENT, IN YOUR VIEW, IT'S OK? MY GUESS IS THAT MAURICE IS A PRETTY LIBERAL GUY, ACTUALLY. I DON'T THINK HE'S` INSULTS AND OFFENDING PEOPLE ARE NOT UP TO THE PERSON DOING THE SPEAKING TO DECIDE. BUT IF YOU ARE INSULTED, IF YOU ARE OFFENDED, YOU'RE OFFENDED. THE OFFENCE HAS HAPPENED. IT'S` AND THE TRUTH IS HE DID OFFEND THE PEOPLE IN THIS AUDIENCE. IT'S NOT YOUR CALL BECAUSE YOU'RE JUST A NICE GUY AND IT'S JUST A JOKE. PEOPLE WALKED OUT. I KNOW, BUT IF I LIVE IN A SOCIETY INFUSED WITH INCREDIBLY PRECIOUS PEOPLE WHO TAKE OFFENCE AT THE SLIGHTEST THING, YOU'RE CALLING IT THE SLIGHTEST THING BECAUSE YOU CAN SIT THERE AS COMFORTABLE WHITE MAN. OK, WELL, LET'S` LET'S CONSIDER` PEOPLE SAY A LOT OF NASTY THINGS ABOUT COMFORTABLE WHITE MEN, AND I DON'T GO CRYING ALL THE TIME. LET'S CONSIDER FOR A MINUTE WHAT WE DO KNOW. HE SAID HE MADE A JOKE ABOUT A PRODUCT, KNEEPADS FOR WOMEN GETTING AHEAD. NOW,... UGH. ...THAT IS OFF. I'M FLABBERGASTED BY THAT. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S NOT OFF. I'M SAYING THAT THE QUESTION WHEN YOU'RE THINKING, 'IS THERE A BIG PROBLEM HERE? 'WE'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. SHOULD MAURICE RESIGN,' YOU KNOW? AND THE QUESTION IS WERE THESE COMMENTS REVEALING SOMETHING REALLY RATHER UNPLEASANT UNDERNEATH HIM? YOU KNOW, IS HE ACTUALLY`? ACTUALLY, THEY WERE. WELL, SOME PEOPLE MAKE` WHEN YOU'RE UNDER PRESSURE TO BE FUNNY, YOU OFTEN GO` THE MC ` THIS IS CALLED PREPARED SPEECH. I THINK WHAT IT REVEALED IS TIME'S UP. YOU KNOW, TIME'S UP FOR MAURICE. HE'S BEEN IN PARLIAMENT A VERY LONG TIME. LET'S NOT FORGET HE WAS MINISTER WAY BACK IN THE 1990S. TIME'S UP. HE NEEDS TO GO. WELL, HE'S ACCOUNTABLE TO HIS ELECTORATE, ISN'T HE, AND THE PRIME MINISTER. AND THE PRIME MINISTER HAS KIND OF BRUSHED IT ASIDE AND SAID, 'WELL, HE WASN'T THERE AS AN MP.' CAN HE NOT BE THERE AS AN MP WHEN HE IS AN MP? WHAT WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT, REALLY, IS THAT HE MIGHT'VE BEEN THERE AS A PROSPECTIVE CANDIDATE FOR MAYOR OF AUCKLAND, AND IT WAS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHY THAT IS SUCH A TERRIBLE IDEA. HOW DO YOU SEE HIS MAYORAL PROSPECTS IF, IN FACT, THAT'S WHERE HE'S LEANING? OH, I THINK THEY'RE ZERO. IT IS INTERESTING THAT ON THE CENTRE RIGHT THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO PRODUCE A VIABLE CANDIDATE. NONE OF THE COUNCILLORS ON THE CENTRE RIGHT HAVE MAYORAL POTENTIAL. AND THAT IS EXTRAORDINARY, BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT SOME BIG VOICES THERE, BUT THEY'RE ALL WELL OUT OF THEIR DEPTH` JAMIE WHYTE, NO CANDIDATE ON THE RIGHT? (CHUCKLES) ON MY LEFT. ALL LAUGH YEAH, THERE'S NO` NO CLEAR FRONT RUNNER ON THE RIGHT'S EMERGED. THERE ARE NO REAL CANDIDATES ON THE RIGHT THAT HAVE EMERGED, LET ALONE FRONT RUNNERS. NO, UM, WELL, I THINK SOMEONE WILL. I MEAN, THERE ARE A FEW NAMES BEING BANDIED ABOUT. DON'T LOOK AT ME LIKE THAT. BUT I` MAURICE, I DON'T THINK HIS CHANCES ARE AS BAD AS YOU THINK, BECAUSE` IF, INDEED, HE WANTS IT, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW YET. YEAH, WE DON'T KNOW IF HE WANTS IT. OFFENDING THE SENSIBILITIES OF THE MEDIA, UH, LIBERAL ELITE IS NOT ALWAYS A BAD MOVE, RIGHT, BECAUSE THE GENERAL POPULATION DON'T SHARE THEM. AND YOU SEE POLITICIANS` THERE'S A DEEPER ISSUE WHY HE WON'T BECOME MAYOR, AND THAT'S WHAT HAS HE DONE FOR AUCKLAND EVER? YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. LET'S MOVE ON TO CLIMATE CHANGE. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE GREENS ANNOUNCING A POLICY THIS WEEK, DARIEN, WHERE THEY'RE AIMING FOR 40% BELOW 1990 LEVELS BY 2030 AND SAY THE GOVERNMENT'S DRAGGING ITS FEET. THEY COULD GET THERE, THEY COULD HAVE THE SAME TARGET AS THE GREENS, AND THEY COULD LEAVE AGRICULTURE OUT FOR THE FIRST FIVE YEARS OF A 15-YEAR PLAN. HAVE THEY JUST TAKEN AWAY THE GOVERNMENT'S OUT CLAUSE, BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT'S ALWAYS SAID, YOU KNOW, 'WE CAN'T PUT THESE RESTRAINTS ON FARMERS.' I THINK IT'S A VERY CLEVER PAPER AND A CLEVER MOVE ON BEHALF OF THE GREENS. IT'S PUT CLIMATE CHANGE RIGHT BACK ON THE AGENDA, WITH A CONFERENCE COMING UP IN A MONTH OR SO. AND WHAT WAS INTERESTING THIS WEEK ALSO WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA FRONTING CLIMATE CHANGE. AND IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT REFUGEES, HE WAS TALKING ABOUT STATES THAT ARE SUBMERGED, CITIES THAT ARE ABANDONED AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF REFUGEES. SO IT'S VERY TOPICAL IN A LOT OF WAYS. I THINK HE'S DONE TWO THINGS. ONE OF THEM IS THAT OBVIOUSLY JAMES SHAW HAS` IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE STRATEGY, BUT IN A WAY, THE MORE SIGNIFICANT THING IS THAT THERE'S AN ATTEMPT THERE BY THE GREEN PARTY TO MOVE THE DEBATE BEYOND 'THERE'S NO OTHER WAY. WE CAN'T DO ANY MORE THAN WE'RE DOING' ` THE TIM GROSER LINE. CLEARLY THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS WE COULD BE DOING. THERE ARE CHOICES TO MAKE, AND WE NEED TO BE TALKING ABOUT THEM AND STARTING TO` ALL RIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE. THANK YOU. WELL, HERE'S A HEADS-UP ON WHAT'S ON THE NEWS AGENDA NEXT WEEK. A NEW REPORT ON WHANAU ORA WILL BE RELEASED TOMORROW. BOTH LABOUR AND THE GREENS WILL INTRODUCE BILLS ON TUESDAY TO RAISE THE REFUGEE QUOTA AND ALLOW FOR AN EMERGENCY INTAKE. AND JOHN KEY HEADS TO THE PACIFIC ISLANDS FORUM IN PAPUA NEW GUINEA ON TUESDAY. AND THE RESERVE BANK IS TIPPED TO CUT THE OFFICIAL CASH RATE ON THURSDAY BY 0.25%. AND ON THE NATION NEXT WEEK, WE'LL BE BRINGING YOU AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH ONE OF NZ'S MOST FAMOUS MEN. PLUS ` SCIENTIST MIKE BERRIDGE ON HIS NEW BOOK THAT TACKLES HEAD-ON MYTHS AROUND CANCER AND HOT TOPICS SUCH AS FLUORIDATION. BUT THAT'S IT FOR TODAY. THANKS FOR WATCHING US AND DO HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY ABLE. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015