TODAY ` INSIDE THE HEAD OF THE MAN LEADING THE MEN IN BLACK. WE'VE SET OURSELVES A GOAL OF TRYING TO BE ONE OF THE MOST DOMINANT SIDES IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME. WHAT WE'RE GONNA TRY AND DO NOW, NO ONE'S DONE BEFORE. NO ONE'S WON BACK-TO-BACK WORLD CUPS. STRAIGHT-SHOOTING STEVE HANSEN KNUCKLES DOWN IN A REVEALING EXTENDED INTERVIEW WITH PATRICK GOWER. WHAT MAKES HIM TICK? THE ALL BLACKS COACH ON LOVE, LEADERSHIP AND NOT LOSING. THE MERE THOUGHT OF NOT DOING WHAT WAS RIGHT UM, WOULD` WOULD, YOU KNOW, DESTROY ME. THEN RUSSEL NORMAN'S OUT, SO MARAMA DAVIDSON'S ON HER WAY TO PARLIAMENT. WHAT DOES THIS SOCIAL JUSTICE CAMPAIGNER BRING TO THE GREENS? AND CAN SHE BROADEN THEIR SUPPORT? THEN SCIENTIST MIKE BERRIDGE TURNS THE MICROSCOPE ON PUBLIC HEALTH. ARE WE JUST TOO CLEAN FOR OUR OWN GOOD THESE DAYS? IS THAT MAKING KIWI KIDS ALLERGIC? AND SHOULD WE CLAMP DOWN ON SUGARY DRINKS AND C-SECTIONS, OR LET PEOPLE DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES? PLUS ` FUNNY MEN JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO. AND THE PANEL ` TOBY MANHIRE, JESSICA WILLIAMS AND MARTIN SNEDDEN. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015 THANKS FOR JOINING US. IF YOU WANT TO LEAP INTO THE DEBATE, YOU CAN TEXT 3330 FOR 50C, OR EMAIL THE NATION AT TV3. PLEASE DO INCLUDE YOUR NAME. OR WE'RE ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK, @THENATIONTV3. AND, OF COURSE, OUR TWITTER PANEL IS ON #NATIONTV3, SPORTS WRITER GRAEME BEASLEY AND SCIENTIST MICHELLE DICKINSON, AKA NANO GIRL. WELL, FIRST UP, SOMETHING A BIT DIFFERENT FOR YOU TODAY. IN A WEEK'S TIME THE RUGBY WORLD CUP KICKS OFF AND ALL BLACKS COACH STEVE HANSEN WILL COME UNDER A KIND OF PRESSURE FEW CAN UNDERSTAND. SO, WHAT ARE THE SECRETS OF THE MAN WHOSE LEADERSHIP IS DEBATED MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE'S IN THIS COUNTRY? JOHN KEY'S LEADERSHIP ASIDE. SO, HOW DOES HE DEAL WITH FEAR AND MOTIVATE HIS TEAM? A TACITURN KIND OF BLOKE, HANSEN, THOUGH, IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF COACH. JUST BEFORE HE HEADED TO BRITAIN FOR WHAT PROMISES TO BE THE CLOSEST WORLD CUP IN YEARS, STEVE HANSEN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. > A PLEASURE. THE ALL BLACKS A GREAT TEAM, A GREAT HISTORY, A GREAT HERITAGE. > I WANT TO ASK YOU FIRST WHAT, IN YOUR OPINION, MAKES THE ALL BLACKS THE ALL BLACKS? > WELL, A LOT OF WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID. I THINK THE HISTORY AND WHAT'S GONE BEFORE. YOU KNOW, WE'RE A LITTLE NATION, AND WE STARTED PLAYING A GAME THAT WAS INVENTED IN ENGLAND, AND LOOKED DOWN THEIR NOSES AT US OVER THAT, AND IT WAS SOMETHING WE WERE GOOD AT, AND IT SUITED THE FARMERS OF THE DAY AND THE PHYSICAL WORKERS OF THE DAY. AND AS TIME'S GONE ON, WE'VE BUILT A LEGACY, A STORY THAT NOW HAS A MASSIVE EXPECTATION THAT GOES WITH IT, AND IT'S SOMETHING WE CAN ALL BE PROUD OF AS NZERS. YEAH, WE'LL GET INTO A LOT OF THAT, BUT I GUESS TO PICK UP ON THE LEGACY, OBVIOUSLY EVERY ALL BLACK TEAM IS DIFFERENT. WHAT DEFINES STEVE HANSEN'S ALL BLACKS, IN YOUR MIND? IT'S NOT STEVE HANSEN'S TEAM, BECAUSE I THINK THE KEY THING IS IT'S ABOUT A COLLECTIVE GROUP OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO ` MANAGEMENT, PLAYERS ARE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING TO ENHANCE WHAT'S HAPPENED BEFOREHAND. AND TO DO THAT, WE'VE BEEN THE NUMBER-ONE SIDE IN THE WORLD FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS NOW, AND SO WE HAVE TO SET OURSELVES SOME LOFTY GOALS, AND SOME PEOPLE MAY SAY THAT'S ARROGANT, BUT I THINK IF YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE SOMETHING IN LIFE, YOU'VE GOT TO SET BIG GOALS. AND WHETHER YOU REACH THEM OR NOT IS IRRELEVANT; IT'S THE FACT THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO REACH THEM, AND THAT'S ALL WE'RE DOING AT THE MOMENT. WE'VE SET OURSELVES A GOAL OF TRYING TO BE ONE OF THE MOST DOMINANT SIDES IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME, AND IT'S NOT FOR US TO JUDGE WHETHER WE'VE DONE THAT. IT'S ABOUT THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO ACHIEVE. AND TO DO THAT, WE ALSO WANT TO BE, YOU KNOW, HUMBLE, GRATEFUL MEN AND WOMEN FOR BEING PART OF IT. IT'S A SPECIAL PLACE TO BE IN THE ALL BLACKS, AND WHILST IT COMES WITH A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITY, YOU KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ALL LOVE AND ENJOY. SURE. I WANT TO PICK UP ON THAT COLLECTIVE PHRASE THAT YOU USED THERE, RATHER THAN BEING 'YOUR' TEAM, IT'S 'THE' TEAM, I GUESS. MM. IS THAT ONE OF THE DEFINING FACTORS ` THE FACT THAT IS A COLLECTIVE? I THINK IT COULD BE. I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'VE LEARNED OVER TIME THAT FOR THIS TEAM TO REALLY PLAY WELL, WE NEED TO BE AS ONE AND THE TEAM HAS TO BE GREATER THAN THE INDIVIDUAL. AND IN DOING THAT, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE A FEW THINGS HAPPEN. ONE IS MAKE SURE WE'RE ON THE JOB WITH OUR GAME, SO WE'RE LOOKING TO IMPROVE THE STYLE OF GAME WE'RE PLAYING ALL THE TIME AND BETTER IT. BUT WE HAVE TO HAVE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF ALIGNMENT FROM, YOU KNOW, THE GUY WHO'S SEEN TO BE AT THE TOP, WHICH IS ME, TO THE GUY WHO'S JUST HAVING HIS FIRST WEEK IN THE TEAM. AND THAT COMES THROUGH OBVIOUSLY THE COACHES BEING ALIGNED ON HOW WE WANT TO PLAY, THE MANAGEMENT BEING ALIGNED ON HOW WE WANT TO LIVE AS A TEAM, AND THEN TAKING THAT ALIGNMENT TO THE LEADERS ` WE HAVE OUR LEADERSHIP GROUP ` THAT HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY, 'WELL, YEAH, I AGREE WITH THAT,' OR, 'NAH, I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT,' AND WE HAVE SOME ROBUST DEBATES AND DISCUSSIONS. AND THEN EVERYONE HAS TO DISAGREE AND COMMIT OR AGREE AND COMMIT. AND THEN IT'S UP TO THE PLAYERS TO ACTUALLY DRIVE IT, BECAUSE IT'S THEIR TEAM AND IT'S THEIR MOMENT IN THE JERSEY, AND THAT'S THEIR OPPORTUNITY TO LEAVE SOMETHING BEHIND FOR THE NEXT GROUP. YEAH, BECAUSE YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT HUMILITY, AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, DEVOLVING LEADERSHIP IN SOME SENSES. I MEAN, THAT MEANS YOU AS THE COACH, THE FIGUREHEAD IN MANY SENSES, WHAT YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP SOME AUTHORITY. YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP SOME CONTROL. IS THAT RIGHT? WELL, IT MIGHT SEEM LIKE YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP SOME CONTROL, BUT, REALLY, IT'S NOT ABOUT CONTROL. IT'S ABOUT EVERYBODY GOING IN THE SAME DIRECTION, TRYING TO ACHIEVE THE SAME THING, AND SO YOU'RE NOT HAVING TO CONTROL ANYONE TO DO THAT. THEY WANT TO BE ALONGSIDE YOU. AND IN SOME CASES, YOU WANT THEM TO BE IN FRONT OF YOU, BECAUSE THEY'RE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE OUT THERE PLAYING, AND THEY'VE GOT TO MAKE THE BIG DECISIONS IN THE MOMENT IN THE CONTEST. AND ALL WE ARE IS HERE TO FACILITATE AN ENVIRONMENT AND TRAINING AND ON AND OFF THE FIELD, AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS CONDUCIVE TO THEM BEING ABLE TO PLAY ON SATURDAY. YEAH, AND THAT MEANS GIVING THE PLAYERS CONTROL IN SOME SENSES. YEAH, IT IS, BUT ONCE YOU GET IN THERE AND YOU START DOING THAT, IT'S NOT` LOOKING AT YOUR FACE, YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT THAT'S QUITE FRIGHTENING, BUT IT'S NOT. YOU KNOW, IT'S ACTUALLY NO DIFFERENT THAN A FAMILY. WE SEE OURSELVES AS A BIG FAMILY, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE COMES A TIME WHEN THE YOUNG CHILDREN IN THE FAMILY HAVE TO START TAKING SOME RESPONSIBILITY. AND AS THEY GET A LITTLE WISER AND A LITTLE OLDER, YOU GIVE THEM MORE AND MORE RESPONSIBILITY TO THE POINT WHERE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE CAPABLE OF RUNNING IT THEMSELVES AND MUM AND DAD CAN SIT BACK AND ACTUALLY ENJOY IT. SO YOU ACTUALLY SEE THIS TEAM AS LIKE A FAMILY, LIKE A REAL FAMILY? I DO, AND I THINK MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN IT AT THE MOMENT FEEL LIKE THAT. YOU KNOW, IT'S A GROUP OF PEOPLE TRYING TO ACHIEVE A COMMON GOAL, AND TO DO THAT, WE HAVE TO BE ALL ON, AS I SAID, THE SAME PAGE. AND THOSE DYNAMICS SOMETIMES CAN BE POSITIVES OR THEY CAN BE NEGATIVES, AND THERE'S ALWAYS CONSEQUENCES EITHER WAY. YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GETTING A PAT ON THE BACK IF YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING POSITIVE OR MAYBE A KICK IN THE BUM IF YOU'RE NOT DOING WHAT'S RIGHT. BUT YOU LOVE THE PEOPLE THAT YOU WORK WITH, BUT SOMETIMES YOU DON'T LIKE THEIR BEHAVIOURS, AND THAT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN YOUR FAMILY TOO. YOU LOVE YOUR CHILDREN AND YOUR PARTNER AND YOUR WIVES AND ETC, BUT SOMETIMES YOU DON'T LIKE THEIR BEHAVIOUR, AND IT'S A MATTER OF SAYING, 'RIGHTO, WELL, THAT STANDARD DOESN'T LIVE IN THIS HOUSE,' AND IT'S NO DIFFERENT HERE. WE'VE GOT STANDARDS AND EXPECTATIONS. DON'T HAVE A LOT OF RULES, BUT THOSE STANDARDS AND EXPECTATIONS ARE DRIVEN EVERY DAY AND DRIVEN BY THE PEOPLE FROM THE TOP DOWN AND THE BOTTOM UP, AND NO ONE HAS ANY RIGHT NOT TO BE LIVING THEM, INCLUDING MYSELF, SO... I MEAN, HOW DO YOU FIT INTO THAT, YOU KNOW, INTO THIS FAMILY CONCEPT? I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T BE EVERYBODY'S MATE; YOU'RE THE COACH. LOOK, AGAIN, I THINK WHEN WE FIRST STARTED OUT, AS A LEADER YOU'VE GOT TO DECIDE, 'RIGHT, HOW AM I GOING TO LIVE AS A LEADER? 'WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT I'M GOING TO NEGOTIATE ON, 'AND WHAT ARE THE THINGS I'M NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE ON?' AND WHEN I PRESENTED THOSE TO THE TEAM, THE NUMBER-ONE THING, THE EXPECTATION I HAD, WAS THE TEAM WOULD ALWAYS COME FIRST. SO EVERY DECISION WE MAKE ABOUT AND AROUND THE TEAM IS ABOUT WHAT'S RIGHT FOR THE TEAM. SO WHILST YOU CAN BE GREAT MATES, THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE A TIME WHEN YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION, AND THEN WHAT'S STRONGER ` YOUR LOYALTY TO THAT PERSON OR THE TEAM? AND AS MUCH AS I LOVE EVERYBODY IN THE GROUP, I LOVE THE TEAM TOO. AND MY JOB IS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE TEAM IS LEFT BETTER THAN WHAT WE FOUND IT. SO, YEAH, THERE ARE SOME TOUGH DECISIONS YOU HAVE TO MAKE, BUT WHEN YOU GO BACK TO, 'WELL, IS THIS RIGHT FOR THE TEAM? YES,' THEN IT'S AN EASY DECISION AND EVEN THOUGH THERE CAN BE SOME TOUGH MOMENTS WITHIN THAT DECISION. YOU'RE USING THE TERM 'LOVE' THERE. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LOVING THESE GUYS. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, USING THAT WORD TO OLD-SCHOOL ALL BLACKS OR OLD-SCHOOL NZERS MIGHT SEEM A LITTLE NAMBY-PAMBY IN SOME SENSES. IT'S FINE BY YOU, OBVIOUSLY? OH, IT MAY SEEM NAMBY-PAMBY TO SOME PEOPLE, BUT I KNOW THAT TO GET THE BEST OUT OF THESE PEOPLE... AND, AGAIN, I REFER BACK TO YOUR FAMILY, LIKE, IS IT NAMBY-PAMBY TO LOVE YOUR OWN CHILDREN AND LOVE YOUR WIFE? I DON'T THINK SO, SO WHY WOULD IT BE ANY DIFFERENT WHEN YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME TOGETHER, AND SOME OF THOSE TIMES ARE HEART-WRENCHING, SOME OF THEM ARE GREAT EXPERIENCES, AND I JUST SEE IT AS JUST A NATURAL PROGRESSION OF BEING TOGETHER, AND THEY'RE A GROUP OF BROTHERS, AND IT'S ABOUT SHARING THOSE INTIMATE MOMENTS FROM A SPORTING ENVIRONMENT, AND YOU BECOME CLOSER BECAUSE OF THAT. WE TALKED BEFORE ABOUT GETTING A PAT ON THE BACK, AS YOU SAID, OR A KICK UP THE BUM. MM. HOW DO YOU, STEVE HANSEN... HOW DO YOU SEE, HOW DO YOU GET THE FEEL FOR WHAT A PLAYER NEEDS? HOW DO YOU READ A PLAYER AS TO WHETHER THEY NEED THAT? WELL, ONCE WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE TEAM COMING FIRST, THE TEAM'S MADE UP OF A WHOLE LOT OF INDIVIDUALS, SO YOU TRY AND DO YOUR BEST TO GET TO UNDERSTAND THE INDIVIDUALS AND WHAT MAKES HIM OR HER TICK AND PARTICULARLY THE PLAYERS. YOU'RE REALLY LOOKING AT THEM, 'HOW AM I GOING TO GET THE BEST OUT OF THAT PERSON?' ALONG WITH THE OTHER GUYS THAT ARE HELPING YOU DO THAT. AND IT'S JUST ABOUT WATCHING THEM EVERY DAY. YOU KNOW, 'OKAY, WELL, HE'S COME IN FOR BREAKFAST TODAY, AND HE DON'T LOOK HAPPY, 'SO SOMETHING'S HAPPENING IN HIS LIFE OR...' IT'S A FEEL. I DON'T KNOW. YOU JUST KNOW AFTER A WHILE WHEN YOU'RE RUBBING SHOULDERS WITH THEM ALL THE TIME WHAT INDIVIDUALS NEED AND WHAT THEY DON'T, AND I GUESS THAT'S THE ART OF COACHING. I MEAN, SOME PEOPLE` IT IS THE ART OF COACHING, OF COURSE, OR EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE, OR EQ, I GUESS. YOU KNOW, HAVE PEOPLE SAID THAT TO YOU BEFORE, 'YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY GOT A HIGH EQ HIGH EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE'? IS THAT SOMETHING YOU'VE GOT? OH, NOT SURE. MY WIFE WOULD PROBABLY TELL YOU I DON'T, BUT, LOOK, I THINK IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO GET TO KNOW YOURSELF FIRST. LIKE, SELF-AWARENESS IS MASSIVE, YOU KNOW, 'WHAT'S THE THING THAT I KNOW ABOUT MYSELF WHEN I'M UNDER PRESSURE?' AND THEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY LOOK AT OTHERS AND SAY, 'WELL, THAT'S HOW HE REACTS. THAT'S HOW SHE REACTS,' AND GOOD, BAD OR INDIFFERENT. AND WHEN YOU KNOW THOSE THINGS, THEN YOU CAN HELP THEM BE BETTER. HOW DO YOU MOTIVATE YOURSELF? YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME MOTIVATING THE TEAM, OBVIOUSLY, BUT WHAT'S MOTIVATING YOU? INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, I DON'T THINK MY JOB IS TO MOTIVATE THE TEAM. MY JOB IS TO CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE MOTIVATED ATHLETES CAN PERFORM. SO HOW DO I MOTIVATE MYSELF? I GUESS IT'S, ONE, I LOVE WINNING ` REALLY LOVE IT. I'M A VERY VERY COMPETITIVE PERSON. YOU KNOW, I LOVE DEBATING AND HAVING DISCUSSIONS. AND WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, I WAS PROBABLY AN AVERAGE HUMAN BEING BECAUSE OF THAT, BECAUSE I'D LOSE SIGHT OF, ACTUALLY, THIS IS JUST A DISCUSSION; IT'S NOT A COMPETITION. THAT TOOK A WHILE FOR ME TO LEARN THAT AND PROBABLY HURT SOME PEOPLE ALONG THE WAY, BUT... SO I LOVE WINNING. HOW DID YOU HURT PEOPLE? BY...? WELL, NZERS ARE GREAT AT PUTTING OTHER PEOPLE DOWN. YOU KNOW, SOME OF US ARE QUITE SHARP WITH OUR TONGUES, AND YOU HURT PEOPLE'S FEELINGS BY SMACKING THEM WHEN` I DON'T MEAN PHYSICALLY BUT VERBALLY BECAUSE YOU'VE OUTWITTED THEM, BUT YOU WALK AWAY FEELING PRETTY GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF BECAUSE YOU'VE WON THAT ARGUMENT, BUT REALLY YOU DIDN'T. YOU LOST. YOU KNOW, YOU LOST SOMEBODY. SO ONCE YOU LEARN THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, I THINK THAT'S A LITTLE EASIER TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, COMPASSION, I GUESS. BUT GOING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION OF HOW DO I MOTIVATE MYSELF? WELL, ONE, AS I SAID, I'M COMPETITIVE. TWO, I HAVE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF RESPECT FOR THE ALL BLACK JERSEY. I THINK, YOU KNOW, I WAS NEVER GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY FOR THE ALL BLACKS. I'M VERY VERY GRATEFUL FOR THE FACT THAT I'VE BEEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO EVEN BE THE ASSISTANT COACH, LET ALONE THE HEAD COACH. I'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN HERE NOW, AND I UNDERSTAND THE IDENTITY OF WHO WE ARE AND WHAT WE WANT TO BE, AND THE MERE THOUGHT OF NOT DOING WHAT WAS RIGHT WOULD, YOU KNOW, DESTROY ME, I THINK. I REALLY DESPERATELY WANT TO MAKE SURE WHEN YOU WALK AWAY IT'S BEEN DONE RIGHT. SO THAT MOTIVATES YOU. THEN YOU'VE GOT YOUR FAMILY, WHO MAKE A MASSIVE SACRIFICE. AND PEOPLE SAY, 'OH, YOU SACRIFICE A LOT TO BE HERE.' WE DON'T SACRIFICE ANYTHING. WE GET TO TOUR THE WORLD, WE GET TO STAY IN LOVELY HOTELS AND WE GET TO PLAY GREAT ARENAS, AND YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD CHOP THEIR ARM OFF TO DO. BUT THE PEOPLE WHO DO SACRIFICE ARE YOUR FAMILY, SO YOU DON'T WANT TO LET THEM DOWN. IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE AWAY FROM THEM, YOU NEED TO BE GREAT, SO THAT MOTIVATES YOU. AND I THINK THEY'RE PROBABLY THE THREE KEY THINGS THAT GET ME UP IN THE MORNING AND WANT ME TO BE GOOD AT WHAT I DO. WE'LL TAKE A QUICK BREAK, BUT WHEN WE RETURN ` STEVE HANSEN ON THE FEAR OF LOSING, AND HOW TO GET BETTER WHEN YOU'RE ALREADY THE BEST. THIS IS THE NATION, AND LET'S GO BACK TO PADDY'S INTERVIEW WITH ALL BLACKS COACH STEVE HANSEN. NOW, WE PICK UP WHERE THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT MOTIVATES THE TEAM. YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALSO THE BAD FEELING OR THE FEAR THAT NZ HAS OF LOSING, OR THAT ANGER THAT COMES OUT WHEN THE ALL BLACKS DO LOSE. AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS. IT'S THAT WEIGHT OF EXPECTATION THAT IS ON YOU FROM THE COUNTRY. HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT? THE KEY THING YOU'VE GOT TO DEAL WITH FIRST AND FOREMOST IS UNDERSTANDING THAT, IN THE ALL BLACKS, THERE'S A CONSTANT PRESSURE. IT'S CONSTANT. IT'S JUST THERE ALL THE TIME. THERE'S AN EXPECTATION. AND ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT AND YOU ACCEPT IT, IT'S A LOT EASIER TO DEAL WITH IT, BECAUSE IT'S JUST THERE, SO, 'OK, WHAT AM I`? AM I GOING TO RUN AWAY FROM IT, OR AM I GOING TO WALK TOWARDS IT AND TAKE THIS ON?' AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE ALL BLACKS HAVE BEEN AS GOOD AS THEY'VE BECOME OVER MANY MANY YEARS, I THINK, IS THAT EXPECTATION EXTERNALLY ` OUR FANS, OUR EX-RUGBY PLAYERS ALL EXPECTING TO FRONT UP AND PLAY WELL AND WIN. INTERNALLY, THE EXPECTATIONS HAVE TO BE GREATER THAN THAT, AND THEY HAVE TO MEET THOSE EXPECTATIONS AND EVEN BE HIGHER, SO I THINK IT'S DRIVEN THE ALL BLACKS. FOR A LONG TIME I THINK THE ALL BLACKS WERE DRIVEN BY A FEAR OF LOSING. YOU KNOW, OVER TIME I THINK WE'VE CHANGED THAT TO REALLY NOT FEAR LOSING, BECAUSE WHEN YOU FEAR SOMETHING, YOU STOP TAKING RISKS, AND IF YOU DON'T TAKE RISKS, YOU DON'T GET THE BIG REWARDS. AND I THINK WINNING THE WORLD CUP IN 2011 TOOK A BIG MONKEY OFF A LOT OF PEOPLE'S BACKS, AND WE COULD SAY, 'WELL, OK, PEOPLE CAN STOP CALLING US CHOKERS NOW.' AND NOT ONLY JUST THE PLAYERS, I THINK THE WHOLE COUNTRY ` IT WAS JUST A BIG SIGH OF RELIEF. AND, YOU KNOW, I'M A GREAT BELIEVER THAT YOU'VE GOT TO KEEP CHALLENGING THE BOUNDARIES, AND YOU'VE GOT TO BE COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO, YOU KNOW, STEP OFF THE CLIFF AND JUMP INTO THE UNKNOWN. AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'VE GOT TALENT WHEN YOU DO THAT, THEN ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. YOU CAN GO TO PLACES THAT PEOPLE CAN'T DREAM OF. WHAT SORT OF THINGS DO YOU DO TO GET OUT OF THE COMFORT ZONE ` IS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THERE, ISN'T IT? GET YOURSELF OUT OF THE COMFORT ZONE, GET THE TEAM OUT OF THE COMFORT ZONE. YOU KNOW, WHAT'S A SORT OF PRACTICAL EXAMPLE OF A RISK THAT YOU'VE TAKEN TO GET THIS TEAM READY FOR THE WORLD CUP? WELL, PROBABLY OUR SELECTIONS FOR THIS WORLD CUP. WE COULD HAVE EASILY STAYED WITH THE TRIED AND TRUE. YOU KNOW, A 53-CAPPER IN CORY JANE AND A 49-CAPPER IN ISRAEL DAGG. BUT WE CHOSE TWO GUYS WHO` ONE'S HAD 40 MINUTES AND BROKE A LEG, AND THE OTHER GUY'S PLAYED TWO TEST MATCHES. BUT WHEN WE WEIGHED IT UP FROM A SELECTION POINT OF VIEW, WE JUST THOUGHT, 'THESE TWO GUYS BRING SOMETHING THAT WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT COULD REALLY OPEN UP OUR GAME, AND WE REALLY NEED IT TO BE OPENED UP. SO IS THE REWARD WORTHY OF A RISK?' AND THE THREE SELECTORS SAID, 'YES, IT IS, SO LET'S GO FOR IT.' YOU KNOW, DO YOU PERSONALLY WORRY ABOUT LOSING AT THE WORLD CUP? I MEAN, DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT? DO YOU BLOCK THAT OUT OR, YOU KNOW...? I DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, BECAUSE WORRY IS, FOR MY MIND, A WASTED EMOTION. IT'S EITHER HASN'T HAPPENED OR IT HAS HAPPENED. SO IF IT HASN'T HAPPENED, WORK TOWARDS IT NOT ` MAKING SURE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN ` AND IF IT HAS HAPPENED, THEN YOU'VE GOT TO FIX UP WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, THE AFTERMATH OF IT HAPPENING. SO IS IT A POSSIBILITY? OF COURSE IT IS. YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE GOING TO TRY AND DO, NO ONE'S DONE BEFORE. NO ONE'S WON BACK-TO-BACK WORLD CUPS. THE ALL BLACKS HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN IN A FINAL IN THE UK OR A EUROPEAN WORLD CUP. SO WE WOULD BE VERY NAIVE AND VERY FOOLISH NOT TO BE THINKING, YOU KNOW, THIS COULD HAPPEN. AND IF WE BECOME FEARFUL IN THAT, THEN THAT'S WHAT WILL HAPPEN. BUT IF WE CAN... WE CAN, UM, UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE THINGS ARE` YOU KNOW, THEY'RE JUST IN... THEY'RE... UH, FACTS THAT MAYBE WE DON'T, AS A NATION, OR MAYBE AS PAST TEAMS DON'T WANT TO ACTUALLY` INCONVENIENT FACTS THAT WE DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE. WELL, WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEM BECAUSE THAT ALLOWS US TO MOVE BACK OVER TO THIS SIDE AND SAY, 'RIGHTO, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT THAT? 'HOW ARE WE GOING TO PLAN SO IT DOESN'T HAPPEN? WHY HAS IT HAPPENED BEFORE?' YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN IN ALL BLACK TEAMS IN 2007. WE HAD THE BEST TEAM AT THAT TOURNAMENT, BUT WE MADE MASSIVE MISTAKES. WE'VE GOT TO LEARN FROM THOSE MISTAKES. OTHERWISE THE MISTAKE WAS... YOU KNOW, IT KILLS YOU. IT HURTS LIKE HELL TO LOSE, BUT IT'S EVEN WORSE IF YOU DON'T LEARN FROM IT AND YOU'VE GOT NOTHING OUT OF IT. YOU'VE GOT TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF A LOSS. SO WHAT'S THE ONE THING THAT YOU'VE LEARNED IN ALL THAT TIME COACHING THAT CAN STOP US FROM LOSING THIS WORLD CUP? THAT WE CAN'T JUST TURN UP THERE AS THE DEFENDERS OF THIS CUP AND EXPECT TO WIN IT. WE'RE CONTENDERS LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, AND THERE'S 20 TEAMS THERE, SO THERE'S ANOTHER 19 TEAMS, AND WE HAVE TO EARN THE RIGHT TO EVEN GET TO THE PLAY-OFFS. AND THEN ONCE WE GET TO THE PLAY-OFFS, WE HAVE TO EARN THE RIGHT TO TAKE THE NEXT STEP. SO EVERYTHING WE DO, WE HAVE TO EARN IT. HOW DO YOU DO THAT, THOUGH? BECAUSE, OF COURSE, EVERYONE WILL SAY WE CAN'T TURN UP LIKE WE EXPECT TO WIN. WE'VE GOT TO TURN UP, AS YOU SAY, LIKE CONTENDERS. BUT HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY CREATE THAT MIND SHIFT SO IT'S REAL? I THINK` BECAUSE EVERYONE WOULD GRAPPLE WITH THIS. EVERYONE WANTS TO GET BETTER. I MEAN, HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY DO IT? I THINK IT'S ABOUT LIVING IT EVERY DAY. YOU CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU'RE LIVING EVERY DAY, TRYING TO GET BETTER, AND YOU'RE NOT ACCEPTING THAT WHAT YOU'RE DOING TODAY'S GOOD ENOUGH. AND I THINK IF YOU KEEP PUSHING AND PUSHING THAT, AND EVERYONE'S BOUGHT IN TO IT FIRST AND FOREMOST, AND THEN YOU KEEP PUSHING IT AND DRIVING IT, IT'S ACHIEVABLE. BUT THE MINUTE YOU DECIDE THAT, 'OK, WELL, WE'VE ARRIVED,' SOMEONE'S JUST GOING TO DRAW STRAIGHT PAST YOU. SO WHILST WE'RE IN FRONT, HOW HARD ARE THE PEOPLE BEHIND US WORKING? THEY'RE WORKING EXTREMELY HARD BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE IN FRONT, SO THEREFORE WE HAVE TO WORK JUST AS HARD IN THE FRONT. AND I THINK THAT'S THE MISTAKE SOMETIMES WE CAN MAKE IN SPORTING AND EVEN IN BUSINESS, I RECKON. YOU KNOW, YOU GO IN REALLY WELL, BUT YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT ALL THE INCONVENIENT FACTS THAT ARE OUT THERE, SAYING, 'WELL, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DON'T SORT THAT OUT, THAT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM. IF YOU DON'T SORT THAT OUT, THAT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM.' AND IF YOU'RE NOT REAL WITH YOURSELF, THEN, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER, SO... IT DOESN'T MEAN TO SAY WE'LL WIN THE WORLD CUP BECAUSE WE KNOW THESE THINGS. WE'VE STILL GOT TO DRIVE THEM, AND THERE'S STILL GOING TO BE SOME REALLY REALLY GOOD` I THINK IT'S PROBABLY THE BEST WORLD CUP OF THE FOUR THAT I'VE BEEN TO BECAUSE ANYONE CAN WIN IT. YOU KNOW, AND THE NUMBER-TWO SIDE AT THE MOMENT IN THE WORLD IS IRELAND. AND THE NUMBER-ONE SIDE AND THE NUMBER-TWO SIDE RANKED IN THE WORLD ` ONE OF US IS NOT GOING TO GO FORWARD. NOW, SO JUST BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A RANKING THAT SAYS YOU'RE ONE OR TWO OR THREE OR FOUR DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BE IN THE TOP FOUR FOR THE SEMI-FINALS, AND IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T GIVE YOU A RIGHT TO BE IN THE FINAL. THAT'S A GOOD PLACE TO LEAVE IT. STEVE HANSEN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. CHEERS. WELL, GREEN PARTY RUSSEL NORMAN IS JUMPING SHIP TO GREENPEACE, PAVING THE WAY FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE ADVOCATE AND NATION PANELLIST MARAMA DAVIDSON TO SURFACE AS THE PARTY'S 14TH MP. SHE JOINS ME THIS MORNING. LAST ELECTION, YOU SAID THAT YOU MIGHT NEED A THICKER SKIN TO BE AN MP. SO HOW HARD DO YOU EXPECT THIS JOB TO BE? I THINK THAT AS A PUBLIC PERSON AND AS AN ACTIVIST I'VE HAD TO GROW A THICKER SKIN, BUT I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT BEING A POLITICIAN OR BEING ANYBODY IS ANY EXCUSE FOR ANYONE TO BE RUDE TO YOU, SO I THINK IT'S REALLY GOOD TO STICK TO THE ISSUES AND LEAVE THE RUDENESS COMPLETELY OUT OF IT. WHEN YOU GOT THE CALL-UP, DID YOU HAVE A MOMENT WHEN YOU THOUGHT, 'OOH'? AS I WAS SAYING, I HAD TO KEEP IT COMPLETELY TO MYSELF FOR QUITE SOME TIME, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH WE'VE KNOWN THIS WAS COMING FOR A LITTLE WHILE, WHEN IT ACTUALLY CAME IT, IT WAS A LITTLE BIT LIKE A BUS CRASH-RUNNING ME OVER, AND SO I JUST HAD TO SIT WITH IT AND SETTLE IT IN MY HEAD A BIT. THERE WAS BOTH NERVES AND ANXIETY AND, UNDERNEATH THAT, SOME EXCITEMENT AS WELL. ALL RIGHT. WELL, YOU SAY THAT YOUR PASSIONS ARE FOR MAORI AND ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES. SO WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THE GREENS ARE STRUGGLING TO CONNECT WITH MAORI? YEAH, SO I HOPE TO BE ABLE TO HELP WITH THAT AND SUPPORT THAT. SO TRADITIONALLY I DON'T THINK THE GREEN PARTY HAS HAD A STRONG PRESENCE IN MAORI COMMUNITIES AND IN MAORI POLITICS, WHICH IS HARD FOR ME, BECAUSE WITH OUR POLICIES AND WITH OUR KAUPAPA, WE'VE ABSOLUTELY STOOD NEXT TO MAORI POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS. FOR EXAMPLE, FORESHORE AND SEABED, OPPOSING STATOIL AND DEEP-SEA OIL DRILLING. SO IN MY BELIEF` BUT YOU'VE NOT WON THOSE VOTES FROM THE MAORI OR THE POOR, HAVE YOU? BECAUSE, I MEAN, JUST LOOKING, IT'S FOUR TIMES` YOU'VE GOT FOUR TIMES MORE VOTES IN EPSOM THAN YOU DID IN MANUREWA OR MANGERE. YEAH, SO I'M REALLY PLEASED WITH THE DIVERSITY WORK THAT WE'VE ACKNOWLEDGED WE NEED TO DO, PARTICULARLY IN AUCKLAND AT THE MOMENT, AND WE'VE GOT OUR MEMBERSHIP IN GRASS ROOTS REACHING OUT AND MAKING THOSE CONNECTIONS, AND WE NEED TO BE PRESENT IN COMMUNITIES. SO, YEAH, THAT'S ONE OF MY STRENGTHS, I THINK, IS BEING PRESENT IN THE COMMUNITY. IS THE PROBLEM THAT IF YOU ARE STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET NOW AND PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE NOW, THE STATE OF THE PLANET IN 50 YEARS' TIME IS NOT YOUR TOP PRIORITY? IT'S NOT A LUXURY THAT YOU CAN AFFORD? AND WHAT I'VE ALWAYS SAID IS THAT EVERY DECISION WE MAKE AT EVERY LEVEL NEEDS TO PUT CHILDREN FRONT AND CENTRE. NOT JUST TODAY'S CHILD BUT TOMORROW'S CHILD. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WAY THAT HOUSING NZ HAS HELD BACK MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND HAS NEGLECTED TO FIX UP OUR STATE HOMES HAS HAD A DIRECT, DIRECT IMPACT ON OUR MOST VULNERABLE, AND OUR CHILDREN HAVE BEEN DYING AND, INDEED, SICK FROM THAT DECISION. WELL, I'M WONDERING IF YOU COULD EVER SEE YOURSELF AS BEING PART OF A COALITION WITH NATIONAL. SO, WHAT WE'VE ALWAYS DONE IS WORKED ACROSS PARTIES, AND WE'VE HAD GOOD GREEN POLICY GAINS WORKING WITH NATIONAL AS WELL, AND INSULATING OUR HOMES WAS A DIRECT SCORE FOR WHAT WE WANT TO UPHOLD. YEAH, BUT I'M ASKING YOU ABOUT A COALITION. COULD YOU SEE YOURSELF IN A COALITION? SO, PERSONALLY, AT THE MOMENT, NATIONAL'S DIRECTION ARE FAR APART FROM THE GREEN KAUPAPA AND OUR OWN POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS. THE MEMBERSHIP AT THE MOMENT, THEY DECIDE THAT, AND THE MEMBERSHIP AT THE MOMENT HAVE SAID IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY. OK, WELL, LET'S TAKE A QUICK LOOK AT SOME OF YOUR PERSONAL VIEWS SO WE CAN GET A SENSE OF WHERE YOU SIT. UM, GIRLS UNDER THE AGE OF 16. SHOULD THEY NEED PARENTAL CONSENT FOR AN ABORTION? I THINK THAT THE ULTIMATE DECISION HAS TO LIE WITH THOSE YOUNG WOMEN, AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT I WAS IN THAT POSITION MYSELF. BUT I DO ABSOLUTELY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WHANAU... (SIGHS) WHANAU HAVE A RIGHT TO BE INVOLVED. BUT I THINK THE FINAL DECISION HAS TO REST WITH THE YOUNG WOMAN. WE'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT TAXES SOON ON UNHEALTHY FOODS. IT COULD SAVE LIVES, BUT TAX ON FOOD OBVIOUSLY HITS THE POOR THE HARDEST. WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT? TAX ON UNHEALTHY FOOD? SO OUR FAIR SHARE TOUR AROUND THE COUNTRY. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING WE HAVE TO HAVE HEALTHY FOOD, LESS EXPENSIVE THAN JUNK FOOD. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE EXACT ANSWERS ARE TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT HAPPENS FOR OUR VULNERABLE FAMILIES, BUT DEFINITELY OUR HEALTHY FOOD NEEDS TO BE ACCESSIBLE. OK, ARE YOU OPPOSED TO ALL OFFSHORE AND ONSHORE MINING IN NZ? FOR DRILLING FOR OIL, EVEN IF WE BURN THE STUFF THAT WE KNOW ABOUT AND THAT WE'VE GOT, OUR PLANET AND OUR FUTURE AND OUR CHILDREN ARE GOING TO SUFFER. SO WE HAVE TO BE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THAT, AND WE HAVE TO NOT CONTINUE OPENING UP NEW MINES. I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR ABOUT. SO NO TO NEW MINES BUT EXISTING...? THE TRANSITION FROM EXISTING MINES HAS TO BE ONE THAT DOESN'T HURT FAMILIES EVEN MORE. AND VERY BRIEFLY, SHOULD MAORI BE ABLE TO ACCESS NZ SUPER BEFORE THE AGE OF 65? UH, SO THE GREENS DON'T HAVE A POLICY ON THAT AT THE MOMENT, AND I JUST` < WHAT'S YOUR`? INEQUALITIES. THE INEQUALITIES ARE THAT MY OWN... BOTH OF MY OWN GRANDPARENTS DIDN'T MAKE IT PAST 65, AND SO WE NEED TO LOOK AT HOW TO MAKE THINGS MORE EQUAL FOR THOSE DISCRIMINATIONS. ALL RIGHT. MARAMA DAVIDSON, THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. COMING UP, SCIENTIST MIKE BERRIDGE LOOKS AT SOME CONTROVERSIAL PUBLIC-HEALTH HOT BUTTONS ` ALLERGIES, ANTIBIOTICS AND SUGAR. BUT FIRST ` JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO DO SOME COUNTING IN THIS WEEK'S POLITICS IN 60 SECONDS. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` ARE WE ABOUT TO SEE MORTGAGE RATES WITH A 3 IN FRONT OF THEM? WHOA, REALLY? 300%? THAT SEEMS A BIT HIGH. DOESN'T IT? I'M SURE WE COULD AFFORD IT, THOUGH, IF WE GET OUR HOBBIT MONEY BACK. OH, THAT'S TRUE. $200 MILLION ` THAT IS A LOT OF MONEY FOR A COUPLE OF FILMS. IT'S MONEY WELL-SPENT, PAUL. LOOK WHAT WE GOT OUT OF IT. THE WARNER BROTHERS CAME FOR A VISIT. THAT WAS NICE. WE GOT A NEW LAW. YEAH, TRUE. UH, SAFETY VIDEO. SAFETY VIDEO AND THE BENEFIT OF ATTRACTING OVERSEAS PEOPLE TO NZ. LIKE REFUGEES? YEAH, WELL, I MEAN, WE DON'T WANT EVERYONE COMING TO NZ, OBVIOUSLY. JUST THE GOOD ONES. MM, WELL, FOR $200 MILLION, YOU COULD HAVE GOT, LIKE, 3000 REFUGEES. YEAH, THAT ADDS UP. ALTHOUGH 2500 ONCE YOU'VE SENT THE MEN BACK TO FIGHT. OH, LOOK, HAVEN'T YOU SEEN FACEBOOK THIS WEEK, MATE? YOU CAN SEND WOMEN TO FIGHT NOW. OH, YES, YOU CAN. IN FACT, THE WOMAN WAS ARRESTED FOR ASSAULT THIS WEEK AFTER PROTESTING THE TPP AT JOHN KEY'S OFFICE. YEAH, THAT'S CUTE, ISN'T IT? THINKING JOHN KEY'S GONNA BE IN HIS OFFICE. OH, AMATEURS. AND, FINALLY, SOME GOOD REAL-ESTATE NEWS FOR AUCKLAND. OH, I LOVE LIPSTICK ON A PIG. GLITTER ON A TURD. WELCOME BACK. WELL, LET'S START WITH A LIST ` SUGAR TAXES, FLUORIDATION, OVERUSE OF ANTIBIOTICS AND VACCINATIONS AND ALLERGIES. WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WANT TO WADE INTO THOSE MOST HEATED OF DEBATES? WELL, OUR NEXT GUEST, THAT'S WHO. PROFESSOR MIKE BERRIDGE IS A LEADING INTERNATIONAL CANCER RESEARCHER AND A DISTINGUISHED RESEARCH FELLOW WORKING AT THE MALAGHAN INSTITUTE OF MEDICAL RESEARCH. HE'S THE AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK BY OUR FRIENDS AT BRIDGET WILLIAMS BOOKS CALLED 'THE EDGE OF LIFE', AND MIKE BERRIDGE IS IN THE STUDIO WITH ME. GOOD MORNING. HI, LISA. WHY HAVE YOU WRITTEN THIS BOOK? IS IT BECAUSE YOU'RE FED UP WITH THE MYTHS AND THE PSEUDOSCIENCE THAT WE SEEM TO BE SEEING EVERYWHERE? NO. IT'S REALLY BECAUSE THERE'S AN ISSUE WITH KNOWLEDGE. WE CARRY OUT OUR EXPERIMENTS; WE WORK IN LABORATORIES; WE GENERATE KNOWLEDGE. THAT KNOWLEDGE ACCUMULATES, BUT THAT KNOWLEDGE DOESN'T ALWAYS FILTER THROUGH VERY EFFECTIVELY TO THE PUBLIC. AND THAT COMMUNICATION GAP, I THINK, IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. SO THIS BOOK, REALLY, WAS A WAY OF COMMUNICATING SOME SCIENCE AND GETTING PEOPLE TO THINK ABOUT THE SCIENCE, BRING SCIENCE INTO... PUT SCIENCE ON AN EQUAL BASIS WITH PEOPLE'S POINTS OF VIEWS. SO MAKE US BETTER INFORMED? LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT YOU LOOKED AT. CLEANLINESS ` WELL, SCIENCE HAS GIVEN US BETTER HYGIENE AND SANITATION, BUT DO YOU THINK THAT WE'VE GONE TOO FAR, AND WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT? YEAH, WE'VE CERTAINLY GONE TOO FAR, AND THIS STARTS VERY EARLY IN LIFE WHEN CHILDREN ARE VERY YOUNG. WE NEED TO BE EXPOSED TO OUR ENVIRONMENT. YOU MIGHT THINK OF IT VERY MUCH AS A VACCINATION, AS A TOLERISATION TO OUR ENVIRONMENT. AND THAT PROCESS IS NECESSARY. IF WE CLEAN THINGS TOO MUCH, IF WE DON'T EXPOSE KIDS TO THE ENVIRONMENT, IF WE DON'T EXPOSE THEM TO FOODS THAT, PERHAPS, WE'RE ALLERGIC TO, THEN THOSE KIDS WILL CARRY ON WITH THE HEALTH PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE. SO WE'VE GOT TO RETHINK THE WAY IN WHICH WE ARE ADDRESSING SOME OF THESE HEALTH ISSUES, AND EXPOSURE TO A WIDE RANGE OF ENVIRONMENTAL THINGS, TO FOOD, ARE GOING TO HAVE MASSIVE EFFECTS ON ALLERGIES, ALLERGIC... RESPIRATORY ALLERGIC PROBLEMS AND FOOD ALLERGIES. YOU TALK ABOUT KIDS THERE. HOW IMPORTANT ARE THOSE EARLY YEARS, AND WHAT YEARS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? YEAH, RIGHT FROM WHEN... THERE'S A MOVEMENT AT THE MOMENT TO GET KIDS EATING FOOD, I THINK ` AT LEAST EXPOSED TO FOOD. IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHETHER THEY'RE EATING THE FOOD, BUT EXPOSED AT A VERY EARLY AGE, PERHAPS 6, 9 MONTHS. AND CERTAINLY BETWEEN 1 AND 2 YEARS IS ONE OF THE PERIODS IN CHILD DEVELOPMENT WHEN THE IMMUNE SYSTEM IS DEVELOPING MASSIVELY, AS IT DOES IN THE FIRST YEAR AS WELL, AND WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT WE MAKE THE MAXIMUM USE OF THAT EARLY-LIFEHOOD EXPOSURE, BECAUSE THAT STAYS WITH US FOR LIFE. BY THE TIME YOU'RE 2, YOU'RE LOCKED IN. SO THE TIME HAS PASSED? UNDER 2S, WHAT ARE YOU SAYING TO PARENTS, THEN? IT'S OK FOR YOUR KIDS TO EAT A BIT OF DIRT AND ROLL AROUND IN THE MUD? OUTSIDE, THINGS THAT YOU INGEST ARE IN FACT WORKING TO TOLERISE YOU, TO MAKE YOU RESISTANT TO WHATEVER THAT INFECTIOUS ORGANISM IS. OUR BODIES ARE COVERED IN BACTERIA. WE HAVE MORE BACTERIA IN OUR BODIES THAN WE HAVE HUMAN CELLS. AND WE NEED TO LEARN HOW TO LIVE WITH THESE BACTERIA. WE'VE NEVER THOUGHT OF IT MUCH IN THE PAST. WE'VE JUST REGARDED THEM AS BAGGAGE, IF YOU LIKE. WE'VE GOT A FEW MILLION OR BILLION OF THEM IN OUR BODIES, AND THEY DO THEIR THING, AND IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THOUGHT THAT THEY ARE IMPORTANT FOR COMPLEX CARBOHYDRATE DIGESTION. THAT'S WHAT THESE BUGS DO. BUT, NO, THOSE BUGS ARE IMPORTANT IN VIRTUALLY EVERY ASPECT OF OUR HEALTH AND WELLBEING, AND IT'S THE DEVELOPMENT OF OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM, OUR METABOLISM AND THE FUNCTIONING OF OUR BRAIN ALL INVOLVE OUR GETTING ON WITH AND NURTURING OUR MICROBES AS WELL AS, WHAT WE THINK OF AS, OUR HUMAN BEING. IT GOES RIGHT BACK TO BIRTH, THOUGH, DOESN'T IT? BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE HAVE VERY HIGH RATES OF CAESARS HERE ` 25% OF BIRTHS BY CAESAREAN SECTION ` AND THAT IS LOWERING KIDS' IMMUNITY, SO DO WE NEED TO LIMIT THE NUMBER OF C-SECTIONS? YES, THAT'S A DISCUSSION THAT IS ONGOING AT THE MOMENT, AND CERTAINLY THERE ARE SOME COUNTRIES THAT HAVE FAR TOO MANY. 50% IN CHINA AND BRAZIL IS VERY VERY HIGH. THE NETHERLANDS HAS A VERY LOW LEVEL, AND WE CAN SEE ENORMOUS DIFFERENCES IN ALLERGIC DISEASES BETWEEN THOSE WITH THE HIGHEST AND THOSE WITH THE LOWEST LEVELS OF C-SECTIONS. SO DO WE NEED TO TAKE ACTION HERE AROUND THAT? C-SECTION IS IMPORTANT. IT'S A MEDICAL PROCEDURE, AND WE USE IT WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE. WE JUST SHOULD BE CAREFUL THAT WE DON'T OVERUSE IT, BUT THAT'S A DISCUSSION BETWEEN THE PUBLIC AND THE MEDICAL PROFESSION. WELL, WHEN YOU'RE SAYING THAT LACK OF EXPOSURE TO PARASITES AND GERMS IN CHILDHOOD SUPPRESSES THE IMMUNE SYSTEM AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE HIGH ASTHMA RATES AND HIGH ALLERGY RATES, CAN WE SAY THAT NOW FOR SURE? HAS SCIENCE ACTUALLY PROVED THAT NOW? YES, IT HAS. IT'S PROVED IT IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS, NOT ONLY IN EXPERIENCES WITH HUMANS AND WITH PEOPLE THAT HAVE PARTICULAR DISEASES, BUT IN ANIMAL MODELS THAT HAVE REPLICATED THE ISSUES THAT MICROBIAL EXPOSURE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. IF YOU RAISE, FOR EXAMPLE, A MOUSE IN A STERILE ENVIRONMENT, THAT MOUSE HAS ENORMOUS PROBLEMS. IT JUST WILL NOT SURVIVE. IN FACT, YOU CAN'T SURVIVE WITHOUT YOUR MICROBES. SO, THERE'S BEEN MUCH DISCUSSION IN OUR OFFICE ABOUT THIS. THE FIVE-SECOND RULE FOR EATING FOOD OFF THE FLOOR IS FINE, AND MAYBE WE SHOULD ACTUALLY STAY A BIT DIRTY LIKE THE GUY IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK WHO HASN'T HAD A SHOWER FOR 12 YEARS. YEAH, DON'T OVERDO THE CLEANLINESS THING. WE TEND TO FOLLOW ADVERTISING, PROMOTION, THERE'S A NEW GADGET WE'VE INNOVATED IN SOME AREA TO MAKE THINGS MORE CLEANER, BUT DO WE REALLY NEED ALL OF THIS? SO YOU THINK`? THE VIEW FROM A HEALTH POINT OF VIEW IS THAT WE NEED TO MINIMISE THAT. IT'S STILL IMPORTANT. WE NEED TO DRINK CLEAN WATER. WE NEED TO KNOW THAT WATER IS CLEAN. WE NEED TO HAVE A CERTAIN LEVEL OF CLEANLINESS, BUT DON'T OVERDO IT. SO DO YOU THINK ADVERTISING HAS PLAYED A BIG PART IN THIS? BECAUSE WHEN YOU TURN ON THE TV, YOU SEE THE WIPES AND THE SPRAYS ALL THE TIME. YEAH, YEAH, VERY MUCH. BUSINESS AND PROFIT DRIVE A LOT OF THE ISSUES. THOSE MAKE MONEY, THEY BUILD THE ECONOMY, BUT WE NEED TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHERE THE BOUNDARIES ARE, WHAT'S OF BENEFIT TO US AS HUMANS IN TERMS OF OUR HEALTH AND WHERE THAT INTERFACES WITH THE BUSINESS MODEL. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SUGAR NOW. YOU TALK ABOUT THE LIKES OF COKE AS PRIMING` AND, I MEAN, COCA-COLA AS PRIMING YOUNG PEOPLE FOR A SUITE OF HEALTH PROBLEMS LATER IN LIFE. SO SHOULD THERE BE RESTRICTIONS ON THAT KIND OF PRODUCT LIKE THERE ARE ON TOBACCO? YES, THAT'S COMING. THAT'S A DISCUSSION AGAIN THAT'S ONGOING IN THE COMMUNITY, WHETHER THAT TAKES THE FORM OF ATTACKS, WHETHER IT TAKES THE FORM OF OTHER MEASURES. PUBLIC EDUCATION IS SOMETHING THAT WILL EVOLVE OVER TIME, BUT` AS A SCIENTIST, THOUGH, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW? PERSONALLY, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE ATTACKS ON THOSE KINDS OF FOODS? I THINK ATTACKS` THE EVIDENCE AND THE MODELLING THAT'S BEEN DONE HAS SUGGESTED... AND WORK THAT'S ONGOING IN COUNTRIES LIKE MEXICO WOULD SUGGEST ` ALTHOUGH THE END RESULTS AREN'T IN YET ` SUGGEST THAT A 20% TAX IN NZ WOULD HAVE, ACCORDING TO THE MODELLERS, SOMETHING LIKE A $30 MILLION BENEFIT TO NZ IN TERMS OF HEALTH. SO YOU PERSONALLY WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE WORTH TRYING? SO I THINK THERE IS VALUE IN THINKING THERE IS LESS NEGATIVE FEELING ABOUT ATTACKS ON SOMETHING WE NOW KNOW CONCLUSIVELY IS BAD FOR OUR HEALTH BECAUSE IT'S JUST AN INSTANT RUSH OF SUGAR INTO THE BLOOD, RAISING OUR BLOOD-SUGAR LEVELS AND PREDISPOSING US, IF YOU DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN, TO DISEASES LIKE TYPE II DIABETES. SO WHERE DOES PERSONAL CHOICE COME INTO IT, THOUGH? YOU KNOW, WHERE DOES`? BECAUSE PEOPLE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT NANNY STATE, AND WHAT ABOUT MODERATION AND PERSONAL CHOICE? WELL, OF COURSE, YOU HAVE PERSONAL CHOICE. BUT PERSONAL CHOICE IS VERY MUCH DICTATED BY ADVERTISING AND PARTICULARLY ADVERTISING TO YOUNG KIDS, WHO BECOME LOCKED INTO CERTAIN WAYS OF THINKING TO PROCESSED FOODS. MY VIEW ON ALL OF THIS IS IF YOUR BODY HAS TO WORK HARD, IT'S GOOD FOR YOU. IN OTHER WORDS, WITH REGARD TO FOOD, IF YOU HAVE TO CHEW IT, IF YOU HAVE TO DIGEST IT, IF IT DOESN'T GO STRAIGHT INTO YOUR BLOODSTREAM, IT'S GOING TO BE BETTER FOR YOU THAN SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORK TO GET THE BENEFIT OUT OF. WE'VE ONLY GOT A LITTLE BIT OF TIME LEFT, BUT I REALLY WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT MEDICATION. YOU SAY THAT WE'RE OVERMEDICATED, INCLUDING USING ANTIBIOTICS. WELL, YOU CAN'T GET THOSE THINGS WITHOUT A DOCTOR'S PRESCRIPTION. SO IF WE DON'T NEED THEM, WHY ARE DOCTORS GIVING THEM TO US? DOCTORS ARE GIVING THEM TO US BECAUSE PEOPLE ASK FOR THEM. PEOPLE DEMAND. LIVE YOUR LIFE NORMALLY AND GET OVER IT. THAT'S NOT WHAT PEOPLE GO TO A DOCTOR FOR. THEY KNOW THAT NOT ONLY ANTIBIOTICS BUT MANY OTHER MEDICATIONS ARE OVERPRESCRIBED. WE'VE BECOME A MEDICATED SOCIETY, AND WE NEED TO LET OUR BODIES DO THE WORK, TO USE MEDICINE MUCH MORE DISCERNINGLY, TO USE WHEN IT'S NEEDED, NOT TO USE IT ON DEMAND. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING, PROFESSOR MIKE BERRIDGE. AND AFTER THE BREAK ` THE PANEL DEBATES THE POLITICAL WEEK, BUT FIRST CHECK OUT WHAT MADE WAVES IN THE TWITTERVERSE THIS WEEK. TWITTER LIT UP AFTER RUSSEL NORMAN ANNOUNCED HE WAS LEAVING THE GREENS FOR GREENPEACE, WITH MUCH FUN MADE OF THE PAPER-THIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIS OLD AND NEW EMPLOYERS. THE TREATY NEGOTIATIONS MINISTER'S DESCRIPTION OF KAITAIA'S AIRPORT OCCUPIERS AS 'OAFISH MISCREANTS' MADE ONE WONDER IF THEY'D GONE INTO HIS WINE CELLAR TOO. THIS PICTURE FEATURING OUR OWN DEAR LEADER KIM JONG-KEY SEEMED SCARILY APPROPRIATE GIVEN HIS ONGOING POLL RATINGS. AND THE HALLS OF POWER ARE RINGING WITH THE SOUND OF AN MP CLEARING HIS THROAT, THOUGH THE ALLEGED CULPRIT INSISTS IT'S NO WORSE THAN LISTENING TO THE GOVERNMENT. WELCOME BACK, AND IT'S TIME TO WELCOME TODAY'S PANEL ` COLUMNIST AND, AS OF THIS WEEK, POLITICS FOR 'THE SPINOFF' WEBSITE, TOBY MANHIRE; RADIO LIVE POLITICAL EDITOR JESSICA WILLIAMS; AND SPORTS ADMINISTRATION GURU MARTIN SNEDDEN. WELCOME TO YOU ALL. WOW, WE HAD AN IN-DEPTH INTERVIEW WITH STEVE HANSEN THERE. INTERESTING. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT, MARTIN, AND HIS TONE? I THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT. WE SAT THERE WATCHING IT, AND WE WERE QUIET, AND WE WERE LISTENING CAREFULLY. AND I THINK WE ALL THOUGHT, 'YOU KNOW, THIS GUY IS HITTING THE RIGHT NOTES.' HE'S GROWN ENORMOUSLY. HE'S BEEN IN THE SHADOW OF RICHIE MCCAW, BUT, YOU KNOW, TRUE LEADERSHIP OF THAT TEAM HAS RESTED WITH HIM AND WITH RICHIE, THE COMBINATION OF THE TWO, AND I THINK THAT'S STARTING TO COME TO THE SURFACE. SO, YOU KNOW, GOOD ON HIM. I THOUGHT HE WAS IN EXACTLY THE RIGHT SPACE. INCREDIBLE TO WATCH, I THOUGHT. JUST TO THINK THAT NOT THAT LONG AGO, EVEN FOUR YEARS AGO, HE WAS THE BAD COP TO GRAHAM HENRY, WHO WAS ALREADY A BAD COP. AND SO HE WAS SORT OF GRUFF AND MONOSYLLABIC AND... (GRUNTS) AND NOW HE'S THIS INCREDIBLY CHARMING, DIRECT SPEAKING, EMOTIONALLY IN TOUCH, TALKING ABOUT` IT'S JUST` IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE AND ALL THIS TALK OF HUMILITY, AND IT DOES` AND HE'S NOT BULLSHITTING EITHER. IT'S NOT AS THOUGH SOMEONE HAS DONE A KIND OF MAKEOVER AND GIVEN HIM ALL THIS KIND OF COSMETIC NONSENSE. HE ACTUALLY IS` WHEN YOU WERE SAYING THAT IT'S SOME MANAGEMENT OF EXPECTATIONS ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS. WELL, I WONDERED ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE IN THE FIRST` THE VERY` NEAR THE START OF THE INTERVIEW, HE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO SET BIG GOALS, YOU'VE GOT TO ASPIRE TO BIG THINGS, BUT THEN HE SAID WHETHER YOU REACH THOSE GOALS IS IRRELEVANT. AND I THOUGHT, 'HANG ON A MINUTE. ARE YOU PREPARING US FOR SOMETHING?' WELL, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE IRRELEVANT IN, YOU KNOW, EIGHT WEEKS' TIME. UM, THE` WHETHER WE WIN OR NOT IS GONNA BE OF MAJOR IMPORTANCE TO THE NZ PUBLIC AND, LIKE IT OR NOT, IS GONNA BE A MAJOR EFFECT ON HOW HE'S JUDGED ULTIMATELY AS AN ALL BLACK COACH AND HOW THE WHOLE TEAM IS JUDGED. WE CAN'T HIDE FROM THAT. WE MIGHT SEE, I THINK, ALSO THAT THE ALL BLACKS MIGHT HAVE MORE FUN THIS TIME. LAST TIME IT SEEMED THE WHOLE TOURNAMENT` I MEAN, WE ALL HAD FUN WATCHING IT TO AN EXTENT, UNTIL IT GOT RIGHT TO THE END AND THEN IT ACTUALLY ENDED UP BEING REALLY A QUITE PAINFUL, HORRIBLE TO WATCH IT. FOR ME, ANYWAY. I WAS VERY NERVOUS ABOUT THE WHOLE THING, AND I COULDN'T REALLY ENJOY IT. BUT THAT WAS 20-SOMETHING YEARS OF EXPECTATION DASHED AT THE LAST MINUTE. THIS TIME THE EXPECTATION IS STILL THERE, BUT MAYBE IT'S NOT QUITE AS` IT'S NOT EVERYTHING. PUTTING FEAR TO ONE SIDE AND IF YOU'RE FEARFUL, YOU WILL NEVER, UM` YOU NEVER GET BETTER; YOU NEVER TAKE THE RISKS THAT MAKE YOU GREAT. BUT THAT'S A BALANCE, ISN'T IT, MARTIN? IT MIGHT BE THAT FEAR'S TO ONE SIDE, BUT IT'S JUST STILL ATTACHED TO YOU, UM, AND WE SHOULDN'T` LURKING? WE SHOULDN'T BACK AWAY FROM THE FACT THEY ARE THE OVERWHELMING FAVOURITES FOR THIS TOURNAMENT. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LAST FOUR YEARS UNBELIEVABLY OUTSTANDING. ALMOST EVERY OTHER TEAM THAT THEY ARE UP AGAINST IS IN SOME FORM OF DISARRAY. THEY GO OVER THERE; THEY SHOULD WIN THIS TOURNAMENT. WE SHOULDN'T BACK AWAY FROM IT. I DON'T THINK THEY ARE. I THINK IN A PUBLIC SENSE THEY'RE QUIETENING DOWN. INTERNALLY, I THINK THEY'RE GEARING UP TO GO STRAIGHT AT THIS AND TO DOMINATE THE TOURNAMENT. WELL, YOU SAY IT WILL MATTER IN SIX WEEKS' TIME. IT WILL MATTER. WHAT KIND OF IMPACT DOES IT HAVE ON THE NZ ECONOMY, THE PSYCHE OF THE NATION, THOSE OTHER THINGS? WELL, IT'S SORT OF ALL-ENCOMPASSING, ISN'T IT? I MEAN, I WAS THINKING THE OTHER DAY, I'VE GOT A 2-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER, AND IN THE EVENING SHE'S DRINKING HER MILK WHICH COMES FROM A BLACK BOTTLE WITH THE ALL BLACKS OVER IT, AND SHE'S IN A NAPPY WHICH IS ALL BLACKS BRANDED. I MEAN, FOR GOODNESS SAKE, IT'S EVERYWHERE, AND IT'S ALL-CONSUMING. BUT I WOULD` THE ONLY OTHER THING I WOULD SAY ABOUT THAT IS THAT, UM, MAYBE... MAYBE OVERDOING IT, BEING HYPERBOLIC, BUT IF THE ALL BLACKS ARE SOMEHOW A KIND OF LENS THROUGH WHICH WE SEE NZ SOCIETY, THAT INTERVIEW WITH PATRICK GOWER IS AN INCREDIBLE THING ` SOMEONE TALKING ABOUT BEING IN TOUCH WITH YOUR FEELINGS, ABOUT LOVE WITHIN A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE A FAMILY. AN INCREDIBLE CHANGE FROM DECADES GONE. SO IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS, IS HE GOING TO HAVE A GREATER INFLUENCE` IN THAT TEAM HAVE A GREATER INFLUENCE ON THE MOOD OF THIS NATION THAN THE PRIME MINISTER? (INHALES) WOW. EASILY. LAUGHTER ALL RIGHT, WELL, WE'LL LET` I MEAN, YEAH, WE MUSTN'T FORGET THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE RUGBY WHO WILL, BUT, OH, I THINK THE TWO HAVE BECOME SO INTERTWINED ANYWAY, JOHN KEY` ALL SPEAK AT ONCE THERE'S A FEW OF THEM ON TWITTER TO US THIS MORNING. SO, OK, LET'S TALK SOME POLITICS NOW OF A DIFFERENT KIND. REFUGEES ` THIS WEEK WE HAD A TURNAROUND FROM THE PRIME MINISTER IN TERMS OF HAVING AN EMERGENCY INTAKE OF 600 SYRIAN REFUGEES. HOW DID IT COME OUT OF THAT TURNAROUND, JESSICA? WELL, I PERSONALLY THOUGHT, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, SORT OF TAKING` SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO TAKE OFF THE POLITICAL EDITOR HAT AND THINK ABOUT, 'WELL, HOW DO I THINK OF THIS AS A NZER, AS SOMEBODY WHO'S...?' YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW. I DID WONDER BRIEFLY WHETHER THIS IS A SIGN OF NATIONAL GENERALLY AND JOHN KEY SPECIFICALLY MAYBE STARTING TO LOSE THAT TOUCH WITH THE PUBLIC. THERE WAS ALMOST` FOR A WHILE THERE JOHN KEY ALMOST SEEMED TO HAVE AN INSTINCTIVE FEELING FOR WHAT THE MOOD OF THE NATION WAS. I THINK MAYBE THEY DIDN'T PLAY THAT QUITE AS WELL AS THEY MIGHT. I MEAN, THERE'S A FEW LITTLE U-TURNS NOW, AND THIS WAS ANOTHER ONE. TOBY, WAS HE WAITING? WAS HE WAITING TO BE SURE OF THE PULSE OF THE PEOPLE? BECAUSE HE'S OBVIOUSLY KNOWN FOR POLLING ALL THE TIME TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE PUBLIC. I THINK THAT PROBABLY IF HE COULD DO IT AGAIN, HE WOULD HAVE ACTED SOONER, BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY TRUE FOR A LOT OF LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD. BUT I ALSO FEEL IN A WAY THAT ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS ` YOU TOUCHED ON THAT ` THAT THE WHOLE KIND OF HUMILIATING U-TURN TYPE RHETORIC IS JUST NOT APPROPRIATE, YOU KNOW? NO. HE'S DONE SOMETHING. IT COULD HAVE BEEN MORE. I WOULD HAVE LIKED IT TO HAVE BEEN MORE, BUT HE'S DONE A THING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, AND TO GET TANGLED UP IN THE PARTY POLITICS FOR IT IS JUST UNHEALTHY. WHAT WORRIES ME IS THAT HE APPEARS TO HAVE JUDGED THAT ON WHAT MATTERS POLITICALLY. THE WHOLE THING SHOULD'VE BEEN JUDGED ON WHAT MATTERS IN A HUMANITY SENSE. WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH QUICKER. THERE WERE LEADERS STANDING UP ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ` CHURCH LEADERS, MAYORS ` SAYING, 'WE CAN COPE. BRING PEOPLE IN. WE WILL LEARN HOW TO COPE.' ALL THIS RUBBISH ABOUT WE HAVEN'T GOT THE INFRASTRUCTURE ` WE CAN FIX THAT IN A HURRY. WE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THEM, WE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THEM QUICKLY, UM, AND ALL OF OUR FOCUS SHOULD BE ON THE HUMANITARIAN SIDE OF IT, NOT THE POLITICAL SIDE, AND HE'S COMPLETELY MISREAD IT. I THINK IT WAS VERY TELLING THAT AT THE POST-CABINET PRESS CONFERENCE, WHICH IS WHERE THE PM CHOOSES TO MAKE THE GOOD-NEWS ANNOUNCEMENTS OF THE WEEK, HE WAS REALLY REALLY INSISTENT. HE MUST HAVE SAID IT THREE OR FOUR TIMES, 'HEY, WE WERE WORKING ON THIS AT THE BEGINNING OF LAST WEEK, 'AND WE'VE KNOWN THAT THE SYRIAN REFUGEE CRISIS WILL HIT, YOU KNOW` 'COME TO SOME SORT OF HEAD, AND SO WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THIS,' AND IT'S... AND IT'S KIND OF LIKE` IT ALL SORT OF SOUNDED A SLIGHTLY SOUR NOTE. I MEAN, THE THING THAT TURNED EVERYBODY'S MINDS AROUND WAS A PICTURE OF THE LITTLE BOY ON THE BEACH. WE KNOW THIS. AND IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT, YEAH, THE GOVERNMENT, IF THEY WERE ALREADY WORKING ON IT, THEY SHOULD HAVE COME OUT RIGHT THEN AND SAID, 'YOU KNOW WHAT? WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS. 'WE JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT YET.' AND INSTEAD IT WAS ALL VERY MEALY-MOUTHED, WASN'T IT? 'OH, WE'RE CONSIDERING THE OPTIONS.' YEAH. I THINK, YEAH, MISREADING. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE GREENS BEFORE WE GO TO THE BREAK. SO, RUSSEL NORMAN ` IS IT A HUGE BLOW THAT THAT'S AN EXIT STAGE LEFT, OR IS IT A GOOD THING TO HAVE SOME RENEWAL WITH SOMEONE LIKE MARAMA DAVIDSON HEADING TO PARLIAMENT? IT'S A BIT OF BOTH, I'D SAY. THEY'LL` THEY'LL LOSE A BIT OF HIS HEFT IN PARLIAMENT. HE'S AT TIMES TAKEN ON A PROXY ROLE AS LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION WHEN LABOUR HAVE BEEN IN A STATE, AND HE'S THE BEST-EQUIPPED PERSON IN PARLIAMENT TO TAKE ON BILL ENGLISH HEAD ON IN TERMS OF THE FINANCE STUFF. AT THE SAME TIME, WHEN HE'S MOVED BACK OUT OF THE LEADERSHIP ROLE, ALLOWING SOMEONE LIKE MARAMA DAVIDSON, WHO'S AN INCREDIBLE PERSONALITY AND INCREDIBLY SMART WOMAN AND EVERYONE LIKES HER, IS A BONUS FOR THE GREENS. JESS? I THINK THAT IN THE INTERVIEW THAT SHE JUST DID WITH YOU AND JUST IN, YOU KNOW, THE PERSONALITY THAT SHE HAS ON SOCIAL MEDIA, SHE REALLY ILLUSTRATES THIS THING THAT WE GET AWAY FROM SOMETIMES THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS OLD ADAGE OF, YOU KNOW, ACTIVISTS ` THE PERSONAL IS THE POLITICAL. SHE HAS THOUGHTS ABOUT THESE POLITICAL ISSUES BASED ON HER EXPERIENCES AND THE EXPERIENCES OF PEOPLE ROUND HER. THAT COMES ACROSS REALLY AUTHENTICALLY, I THINK. I THINK THAT WILL BRING SOMETHING GOOD FOR THE GREENS, BECAUSE THEY'RE QUITE OFTEN SEEN AS ONLY BEING IN TOUCH WITH THE PEOPLE THAT KNIT THEIR OWN MUESLI ON THE WEEKEND. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? WHEREAS SHE DOESN'T COME ACROSS THAT WAY, AND I THINK THAT CAN ONLY BE GOOD. MARTIN? THEY'RE GOING TO MISS HIM. HE HAD A PRESENCE, UH, INSIDE AND OUTSIDE OF PARLIAMENT. UM, BUT AS YOU SAID, MARAMA LOOKED REALLY IMPRESSIVE TODAY. MM. AND SHE WILL BE A GOOD PRESENCE, AND IT'S ALL ABOUT REFRESHING ANYWAY. UM, BUT THEY WILL MISS HIM. OK, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. WE'LL BE BACK IN A MOMENT WITH A HEADS-UP ON WHAT COULD HIT THE HEADLINES NEXT WEEK. WELCOME BACK. THIS IS 'THE NATION', AND WE'RE TALKING TO OUR PANEL. TOBY, LET'S TALK ABOUT SYRIA. BIG PICTURE ` THIS WEEK, WE LEARNT FROM AUSTRALIA THAT THEY'RE GOING TO CARRY OUT AIR STRIKES IN SYRIA ITSELF; NO UN MANDATE. IS IT OPENING A CAN OF WORMS? WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT? IT SEEMS TO BE MOTIVATED BY AN ATTEMPT TO OFFSET THE HUMANITARIAN PART OF THE PACKAGE WITH A MORE BELLIGERENT RESPONSE, SIMILAR TO WHAT DAVID CAMERON DID IN BRITAIN. AND I DON'T SEE THAT MUCH GOOD CAN COME OF IT. THERE'S NO CLEAR SIGN THAT THE AMERICAN-LED CAMPAIGN IN SYRIA HAS A COHERENT STRATEGY. THE PLACE IS A TERRIBLE MESS. IT'S A REALLY, REALLY, REALLY SAD THING THAT'S HAPPENED AFTER ALL THE HOPE OF THE ARAB SPRING THAT YOU'VE NOW GOT SYRIA BOGGED DOWN IN THIS COMPLEX CIVIL WAR IN WHICH YOU'VE GOT NOT JUST THE ASSAD REGIME AND THE REBELS, BUT NOW ISIS COMING IN. IT'S REALLY HARD TO SEE WHERE THE SOLUTION COMES, BUT I DON'T SEE THAT IT'S DROPPING BOMBS IN SYRIA. MARTIN, IT LED TO QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER NZ IS GOING TO BE EXPECTED TO DO MORE. WHERE DO YOU SIT ON THAT? WHERE I SIT IS I THINK WE SHOULD BACK OFF ON THAT SIDE OF IT AND INCREASE OUR FOCUS ON THE HUMANITARIAN SIDE OF IT. I DON'T THINK WE CAN MAKE THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF DIFFERENCE. IT'S A COMPLEX SITUATION. I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY'RE BOMBING. YOU LOOK AT TV ` WHAT'S LEFT TO BOMB? THE WHOLE COUNTRY'S ALREADY BEEN DESTROYED. HOW'S THAT GONNA HELP? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHETHER YOU'RE EVEN GETTING THE RIGHT TARGETS? AND SHOULD YOU EVEN BE BOMBING PEOPLE? IS THAT JUSTIFIED? BUT WHERE WE CAN MAKE SOME DIFFERENCE ` MAYBE IT'S NOT ENORMOUS, BUT IT IS SOME DIFFERENCE ` IS ON THE HUMANITARIAN SIDE, AND THAT'S WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE TAKING OF REFUGEES, EXTENDING OURSELVES, GOING HARDER, UTILISING THE PEOPLE AND THE ORGANISATIONS AROUND NZ THAT ARE PREPARED TO HELP THERE, THAT'S WHERE I'D BE TAKING THIS. JOHN KEY, JESS, WAS ASKED ABOUT AUSTRALIA'S MOVE THIS WEEK. HE'S TAKING A REALLY NEUTRAL STAND ON IT, EVEN THOUGH WE'RE ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL. IS THAT THE KIND OF PRICE OF DIPLOMACY? HE HAD, REALLY, NO PLACE TO GO? WELL, THE DAY THAT HE WAS ASKED ABOUT IT THE MOST WAS THE DAY THAT HE WAS GOING TO MEET TONY ABBOTT THAT EVENING, SO HE COULD HARDLY BE SAYING IN NZ, 'THEY'RE DOING THE WRONG THING,' AND THEN, 'OH, HEY, TONY. HOW'S IT GOING? LET'S TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW...' YES, IT IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE THAT. AND THE THING IS THAT JOHN, NOW MORE THAN EVER, BECAUSE WE'RE ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL, DESPERATELY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THE PERMANENT MEMBERS WHO ALWAYS VETO STUFF LIKE THIS ` RUSSIA AND CHINA ` ARE VETOING THEIR HEARTS OUT AGAIN ON THIS. THERE'S NOT A SINGLE RESOLUTION ON SYRIA THAT'S MANAGED TO GET THROUGH. AND RIGHT NOW WE'VE GOT NZ REPRESENTATIVES SITTING THERE, WATCHING THIS PLAY OUT. AND, YEAH, I MEAN, THIS IS` I DON'T SEE HOW NZ COULD EXTEND INTO SYRIA, HOW IT COULD HAVE ANY ROLE THERE WITHOUT A UN MANDATE, PARTICULARLY NOW, AND IT'S JUST NOT GONNA HAPPEN. I MEAN, THERE IS THIS TOTAL DEADLOCK IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD ON THIS, AND I THINK IT'S... IT'S JUST A HORRENDOUS SITUATION. I THINK MARTIN'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. WHAT IS THERE LEFT? THERE'S NOTHING LEFT TO BOMB THERE, AND ISIS IS STILL THERE, AND THEY'RE STILL DOING THEIR THING, SO, YEAH, IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. THE OTHER BIG CONVERSATION THIS WEEK WAS ABOUT OUR ECONOMY. OBVIOUSLY WE HAD GRAEME WHEELER. THE OCR DROPPED 0.25% TO 2.75. GRAEME WHEELER CAME OUT REALLY STRONGLY, SAYING, 'WE'RE IN DANGEROUS TERRITORY NOW WITH THE AUCKLAND HOUSING MARKET.' HOW WORRIED DO YOU RECKON WE SHOULD BE, MARTIN? UH, WELL, IT'S PASSED WORRY. IT'S ALREADY EXPLODED FAR TOO FAR. WHAT I'D LOVE TO SEE IS JUST MUCH MORE CONCENTRATION ON YOUNG PEOPLE BEING EDUCATED ABOUT THE BEAUTIES AND THE QUALITIES OF OTHER PARTS OF NZ AND BEING ENCOURAGED TO POPULATE THE REST OF NZ. WE'VE GOT PLENTY OF CAPACITY THERE, AND YET AUCKLAND GETS OVERLOADED. I'VE GOT FOUR KIDS. I'M TRYING TO PUSH THEM GENTLY DOWN THAT WAY AND SAY, 'DON'T UNDERESTIMATE WHAT EXISTS IN THE REST OF NZ.' BECAUSE IF OUR, UM` THE DOMINANCE OF AUCKLAND AND OUR` OUR RELIANCE UPON AUCKLAND IS TIPPED OVER A SCALE, LET'S JUST SHIFT IT BACK THE OTHER WAY NOW. JESS, HOW'S THE GOVERNMENT LANGUAGE AROUND THIS CHANGING? BECAUSE BILL ENGLISH A FEW MONTHS AGO DIDN'T SEEM THAT CONCERNED. NOW HE'S SAYING THAT THE AUCKLAND HOUSING MARKET IS ON FIRE. WELL, I MEAN, ARE THEY FINALLY WAKING UP TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT THIS MIGHT HAVE A STICKY END? I JUST DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THEY ARE. I REPEATEDLY HAVE ASKED BILL ENGLISH OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST... I DON'T KNOW, THE PAST YEAR, 'WHAT IS YOUR STRATEGY IF WE HAVE A CORRECTION IN THE AUCKLAND HOUSING MARKET?' IF HOUSE PRICES FALL, EVEN BY SAY 5% OR 10%, THE RIPPLE FOR THE REST OF THE COUNTRY WILL BE TREMENDOUS. YOU KNOW, YOU WILL SEE PEOPLE DEFAULTING ON MORTGAGES. YOU KNOW, YOU WILL SEE BANKS SUDDENLY CLOSING DOWN ALL THEIR LENDING. SO YOUR KIDS WON'T EVEN BE ABLE TO GET A MORTGAGE ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY. I MEAN, IT'S JUST BIZZARE, AND NOW THEY'RE STARTING TO SEE IT FAR TOO LATE. TOBY, NOT JUST HOUSES, THOUGH, IS IT? BECAUSE THE RESERVE BANK WAS ALSO WARNING IF WE SEE A DIP IN CHINA, EVEN IF WE HAVE A STRETCH OF BAD WEATHER DURING A FARMING SEASON, YEAH, EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE A LITTLE BIT ON A KNIFE'S EDGE RIGHT NOW IN THAT, OVERALL, THERE'S THAT DANGER IN NZ, ESPECIALLY WITH THE AUCKLAND THING, THAT THEY'VE CREATED A TWO-SPEED ECONOMY. SO IT'S HARD TO USE THOSE TOOLS OR MECHANISMS WHEN YOU WOULD LIKE TO APPLY SOMETHING COMPLETELY TO THE CITY-STATE OF AUCKLAND TO WHAT YOU APPLY IN THE REGIONS. RIGHT. GOOD PLACE TO LEAVE IT. AND HERE'S A HEADS-UP ON WHAT'S HAPPENING NEXT WEEK. THE PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION WILL RELEASE ITS REPORT ON MORE EFFECTIVE SOCIAL SERVICES ON TUESDAY. A NZ FIRST BILL TO TIE SUPERANNUATION TO THE TIME SPENT IN NZ WILL BE INTRODUCED IN THE HOUSE ON WEDNESDAY. AND THE JUNE QUARTER GDP FIGURES WILL BE OUT ON THURSDAY. AND HERE ON THE NATION NEXT WEEK ` MY, HOW TIME FLIES ` COS WE'LL BE TAKING STOCK ONE YEAR IN THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT'S THIRD TERM AND LOOK AT HOW THE PARTY'S ARE FAIRING, HEADING TOWARDS 2017. PADDY AND I WILL LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR COMPANY, THEN. BUT THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEK. IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A LOOK AT THE INTERVIEWS THAT YOU'VE SEEN TODAY, AGAIN, YOU CAN GO TO OUR WEBSITE AT THENATION.CO.NZ OR OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL. THEY'LL BE UP THERE SHORTLY, AND FROM ME AND THE REST OF THE NATION TEAM, THANKS SO MUCH FOR WATCHING. DO ENJOY YOUR WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY PIPPA JEFFERIES, DESNEY SHAW AND JOHN LING. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015