GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO 'THE NATION'. I'M LISA OWEN. TODAY ` OVERHAULING THE WAY WE CARE FOR KIDS. EVERYONE HAS JUST SAID ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. WE'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING BETTER FOR THESE KIDS. NATIONAL'S PROMISING RADICAL CHANGE, BUT WILL THAT HELP? IS IT RIGHT TO SAY THROWING MONEY AT THE PROBLEM WON'T WORK AND TO TURN TO CHARITY FOR HELP? SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MINISTER ANNE TOLLEY IS LIVE. THEN ` WHAT DOES CHINA REALLY MAKE OF US? AN EXTENDED, EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE CHAIR OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT'S FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE, MADAME FU YING. WHAT DO THE CHINESE MAKE OF OUR FOREIGN INVESTMENT DECISIONS AND USING CHINESE SURNAMES? WHAT ROLE DOES IT WANT TO PLAY IN THE ASIA REGION? AND HOW WORRIED SHOULD WE BE ABOUT THE SLOWING CHINESE ECONOMY? PLUS ` FUNNYMEN JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO. AND, OUR PANEL ` MATTHEW HOOTON, LAILA HARRE AND BERNARD HICKEY. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015 THANKS FOR SHARING PART OF YOUR WEEKEND WITH US. PLENTY FOR YOU TO CHEW ON TODAY. SO DO TEXT 3330 FOR 50C. YOU CAN EMAIL 'THE NATION' AT TV3. PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR NAME. OR WE'RE ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK, @THENATIONTV3. AND OUR TWITTER PANEL WILL BE DUKING IT OUT AT #NATIONTV3. TODAY IS THE NEWLY DECLARED AUCKLAND MAYORAL CANDIDATE, MARK THOMAS, AND BLOGGER JOHN PALETHORPE. AND LATER IN THE PROGRAMME ` A BOOK COMPETITION. WE'LL TELL YOU HOW TO WIN A COPY OF THE DEFINITE REVIEW OF LAST YEAR'S ELECTION, 'MOMENTS OF TRUTH'. WELL, THE GOVERNMENT HAS SPENT THE PAST FEW DAYS JUSTIFYING ITS CALL TO RADICALLY OVERHAUL CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY. AN INTERIM REPORT BY THE REBSTOCK PANEL THIS WEEK MADE THE CASE FOR YET ANOTHER RESTRUCTURE AHEAD OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR CHANGE AND SOME DOLLAR FIGURES WHICH ARE DUE OUT IN DECEMBER. BUT CYF HAS AND BEEN RESTRUCTURED ON AVERAGE EVERY TWO OUT OF THE PAST 28 YEARS. SO WHY DOES SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MINISTER ANNE TOLLEY THINK THAT SHE CAN SUCCEED WHERE OTHERS HAVE APPARENTLY FAILED? YOU'VE TALKED REPEATEDLY ABOUT HOW RADICAL THIS IS, SO IS IT A MAJOR SHIFT TO FOCUS ON CHILDREN AT RISK AND TO INTEGRATE SERVICES BETTER? YEAH. SO, YOU KNOW, AS YOU SAY, WE'VE HAD 14 DIFFERENT RESTRUCTURES OF CYF OVER THE YEARS, AND THE REALITY IS NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED FOR THE CHILDREN THAT COME THROUGH THAT SYSTEM. SO WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THE SYSTEM COMPLETELY APART, AND WE'RE GOING TO PUT IT BACK TOGETHER, BUT THIS TIME IT'S GOING TO BE ABSOLUTELY FOCUSED ON THE NEEDS OF THOSE CHILDREN. YOU SAY 'THIS TIME', BUT THE THING IS, IN THAT QUESTION, I WAS QUOTING FROM YOUR PREDECESSOR ROGER SOWRY FROM A PRESS RELEASE IN 1998. ALL OF THEM TALKING ABOUT CHARTING A NEW DIRECTION, QUALITY OUTCOMES FOR CHILDREN. SO WHY SHOULD ANYONE HAVE ANY CONFIDENCE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO DELIVER SOMETHING THAT'S BETTER? WELL, WE ARE. WE SIMPLY HAVE TO. AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS THAT THE SYSTEM IS GETTING FOR THOSE CHILDREN THAT WE TAKE INTO OUR CARE, WE SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THOSE RESULTS. AND ALL OF US HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY IN THAT. SO THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE AND I ARE ABSOLUTELY DETERMINED THAT THIS TIME ALL THE RECOMMENDATIONS ARE GOING TO BE IMPLEMENTED. AND WHEN YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE PREVIOUS REVIEWS AND RESTRUCTURINGS, NOT ALL OF THOSE HAVE BEEN PUT INTO PLACE. WE'VE DONE A LITTLE BIT HERE AND A LITTLE BIT THERE, AND OFTEN RESPONDING TO CRISIS AND PUTTING MORE INTO MANAGING CRISIS. BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM, ISN'T IT? BECAUSE EVERYBODY SETS OUT WITH THE BEST INTENTIONS, BUT THIS IS YOUR SEVENTH YEAR IN POWER, SO WHY ARE YOU JUST ACTING NOW? I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING WITH WORK AROUND VULNERABLE CHILDREN, WE STARTED AND THERE WAS THE GREEN PAPER AND THE WHITE PAPER, WHICH CULMINATED IN THE VULNERABLE CHILDREN'S ACT, SO MY PREDECESSOR PAULA BENNETT STARTED WITH THAT WIDER GROUP OF CHILDREN WHO ARE IN VULNERABLE CIRCUMSTANCES ` ABOUT 100,000 AT ANY ONE POINT IN TIME. THAT'S ALL IN PLACE. WE'VE GOT CHILDREN'S TEAMS; WE'VE GOT THE COMMUNITY; THE $330 MILLION THAT MSD INVESTS EACH YEAR, THAT'S BEEN REDEVELOPED AND REFOCUSED. AND SO NOW WE'VE GOT THE VERY TIP OF THE ICEBERG, WHICH IS THE TOP OF THAT TRIANGLE. I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT SOME OF THE FIGURES THAT YOU REFERRED TO THIS WEEK THAT YOU SAID YOU WERE HORRIFIED AND EMBARRASSED ABOUT; ONE IN PARTICULAR WAS FROM 2010 SHOWING THAT 23% OF KIDS WHO GO BACK TO THEIR BIOLOGICAL FAMILIES ARE REVICTIMISED, REABUSED. BUT THOSE FIGURES, AS I SAID, FROM 2010. SO WHY WASN'T SOMETHING DONE ABOUT THAT IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS? SO, IT WAS AT THE TIME. IT FED INTO A REVIEW WHICH MADE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS, AND SOME THINGS WERE DONE. WHAT'S CLEAR` ANOTHER REVIEW, OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS, MORE PAPERWORK. BUT WHAT'S CLEAR IS THAT NO ONE HAS EVER GONE BACK AND MONITORED AND CHECKED AND EVALUATED IF WHAT THEY WERE DOING IS ACTUALLY WORKING. YOU KNOW THE OLD ADAGE IF YOU KEEP DOING THE SAME THINGS THE SAME WAY, YOU'LL GET THE SAME RESULTS. AND SO THAT'S VERY CLEAR FROM THE EXPERT PANEL'S REVIEW. THEY'VE GOT UNDERNEATH ALL THAT DATA. FOR YEARS WE'VE HEARD HOW THE NOTIFICATIONS WERE INCREASING. WE'VE PUT MORE MONEY INTO MORE SOCIAL WORKERS, BECAUSE THEY WERE OVERWORKED AND OVERSTRETCHED. WHAT THE REVIEW PANEL HAS FOUND IS THAT NOW ALMOST TWO-THIRDS OF THOSE CHILDREN ARE NOW KNOWN TO CYF ALREADY, AND THEY'VE BEEN CHURNING BACK THROUGH THE SYSTEM, SO WE'VE BEEN CREATING THAT EXTRA WORKLOAD BY NOT DEALING WITH THOSE CHILDREN WELL AND THEIR FAMILIES IN THE FIRST PLACE. LET'S LOOK AT` IT'S STUFF LIKE THAT THAT THE PANEL'S GOT UNDERNEATH FOR THE FIRST TIME. LET'S LOOK AT THE PANEL'S REPORT, THEN, AND LOOK AT SOME OF THE THINGS THEY HAVE IDENTIFIED. FRONT-LINE SOCIAL WORKERS SPEND MORE THAN HALF THEIR TIME SHUFFLING PAPERWORK. WHY? THAT'S BECAUSE THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT HAS RESPONDED. EVERY TIME THERE'S A CRISIS AND ANOTHER CHILD IS HORRIFICALLY ABUSED AND KILLED, THERE'S BEEN ANOTHER LAYER PUT IN THERE TO DEAL WITH THAT RESPONSE, THERE'S BEEN ANOTHER REVIEW DONE, PART OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS HAVE BEEN TAKEN UP, AND SMALL CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE, WHICH IS WHY I'M SAYING I'M NOT GOING TO BE RUSHED INTO MAKING A PATCH-UP JOB. WE HAVE GOT TO TAKE THIS SYSTEM APART AND REBUILD IT, CENTRED ON THE NEEDS OF THOSE CHILDREN. BECAUSE YOU'VE JUST IDENTIFIED WHAT IS THE SYSTEM'S FAULT HERE. BUT WHEN 'THE NATION' HAS TALKED TO SOCIAL WORKERS THIS WEEK, WE HEAR THAT THEY'RE FLAT OUT FINDING EMERGENCY PLACEMENTS; THEY'RE FERRYING, THEY'RE LIKE A TAXI SERVICE FOR KIDS, TAKING THEM TO SCHOOL, TAKING THEM TO OTHER APPOINTMENTS; THEY'RE WORKING ON PAPERWORK, AT THE EXPENSE OF THE LONG-TERM CARE THAT YOU WANT AND THEY WANT. AND THE SYSTEM HAS DEMANDED THAT OF THEM. I JUST WANT TO FINISH THIS, MINISTER, BECAUSE YOU'VE SAID, DESPITE ALL THOSE PRESSURES ON THEM, YOU'VE SAID THAT WE SHOULDN'T EXPECT A MASSIVE CHANGE IN THE NUMBERS OF STAFF. WELL, WHAT I'VE SAID IS WHEN I'VE BEEN ASKED, 'WILL SOCIAL WORKERS LOSE THEIR JOBS?' WE NEED THOSE SOCIAL WORKERS. I CAN'T SEE THAT WE WOULD NEED FEWER SOCIAL WORKERS. BUT ACTUALLY, THE REPORT TELLS YOU ONLY ABOUT 25% OF THE WORKFORCE ARE ACTUALLY WORKING DIRECTLY WITH CHILDREN. WE'VE GOT LOTS OF MANAGERS AND SUPERVISORS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE FILLING IN FORMS. BUT ISN'T THAT BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ENOUGH OF THEM? WELL, THERE'S 3000-ODD STAFF, BUT ONLY 25% OF THEM ARE ACTUALLY WORKING WITH CHILDREN. AND OF THAT 25%, THEY'RE ONLY SPENDING 15% OF THEIR TIME ACTUALLY WITH CHILDREN. SO ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT WE NEED MORE BACK-ROOM STAFF TO ALLOW THOSE PEOPLE TO GET ON TO THE FRONT LINE AND DEAL WITH THE KIDS? WHAT WE NEED IS A SYSTEM THAT IS DESIGNED TO LOOK AFTER THOSE CHILDREN WHEN THEY FIRST COME TO OUR ATTENTION, WE NEED GOOD INTERVENTIONS WITH THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES, AND WE NEED TO FREE UP THE FRONT-LINE SOCIAL WORKERS TO DO THE WORK THEY COME IN EVERY DAY TO DO, WHICH IS TO WORK WITH CHILDREN, NOT A SYSTEM THAT'S BUILT ON LAYERS AND LAYERS OF RISK MANAGEMENT AND BUREAUCRACY AND ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS WHAT WE'VE GOT NOW. BUT, MINISTER, YOU TALK ABOUT THE RESEARCH AND THE REVIEWS AND EVIDENCE BASED... GOING AHEAD WITH EVIDENCE. BUT SOME EVIDENCE THAT WAS PROVIDED LAST YEAR WAS THE CASE-LOAD REVIEW, WHICH SAID THAT YOU WERE 350 SOCIAL WORKERS SHORT. SO CAN WE EXPECT MORE SOCIAL WORKERS? WE MAY WELL. WE MAY ALSO EXPECT, AND YOU TALKED TO FRONT-LINE` BUT 'MAY WELL' IS NOT A DEFINITIVE ANSWER, IS IT, MINISTER? SO YES OR NO? WILL WE GET MORE? I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE THE FINAL SYSTEM PROPOSAL WILL COME TO ME IN DECEMBER, SO I'M NOT GOING TO PRE-EMPT WHAT THE PANEL'S COMING UP WITH. WHAT THEY'VE DONE IN THIS INTERIM REPORT IS GIVE US THE BUILDING BLOCKS. THEY WILL COME TO ME IN DECEMBER WITH THE FINAL SYSTEM DESIGN AND THE COSTINGS FOR THAT. SO THERE MAY WELL BE MORE SOCIAL WORKERS. WHAT THERE WILL BE IS A DIFFERENT MIX. BECAUSE YOU TALK TO FRONT-LINE SOCIAL WORKERS WITH THE INCREASINGLY COMPLEX FAMILY DYSFUNCTION THAT THEY'RE SEEING AND SOME OF THE COMPLEX NEEDS OF THESE KIDS; WE KNOW MORE ABOUT THEM, WE CAN DIAGNOSE BETTER. WE NEED MORE SPECIALIST SERVICES, SO WE NEED MORE PSYCHOLOGISTS AND PSYCHIATRISTS AND THERAPISTS. ALL OF THAT. SO THAT WILL BE A DIFFERENT MIX THAT I'M EXPECTING TO GET. SO YOU DO` YOU DO NEED MORE. DOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE GOING TO HIRE MORE? WELL, WE'LL WAIT AND SEE WHAT THEY PUT IN PLACE. BUT AS I SAY, WE'VE GOT 3000 SOCIAL WORKERS WHO FOR US NOW IN CYF. ONLY 25% OF THOSE ARE WORKING WITH CHILDREN. SURELY WE NEED TO RELEASE SOME OF THOSE SUPERVISORS AND ADMINISTRATORS AND WHATEVER THEY'RE DOING FILLING IN FORMS AND BITS OF PAPER TO BE OUT THERE WORKING WITH CHILDREN. THAT'S WHAT WE WANT A SYSTEM THAT'S FOCUSED ON THE NEEDS OF THOSE CHILDREN. OK. WELL, THE REPORT INDICATED YOU ALSO NEED BETTER SOCIAL WORKERS, SO LABOUR'S GOT A PRIVATE MEMBER'S BILL THAT WOULD REGISTER ALL SOCIAL WORKERS, WHICH MEANS THEY WOULD BE POLICE-CHECKED, THEY WOULD BE PROFESSIONAL-TRAINED. ARE YOU GOING SUPPORT THAT BILL? NO, I'M NOT SUPPORTING THAT BILL, AND I'VE TALKED TO CARMEL. IT'S NOT THAT I DON'T SUPPORT IT. I'VE SAID TO HER THAT HER TIMING IS WRONG. SO I HAVE ASKED THE SOCIAL WORKERS REGISTRATION BOARD TO DO A REVIEW OF THEIR ACT AND TO MATCH WITH THE FINAL REPORT THAT I GET FROM THE EXPERT PANEL. THEY'RE REPORTING BACK TO ME IN DECEMBER. SO THEY ARE LOOKING EXACTLY AT WHAT DO WE MEAN BY A SOCIAL WORKER, WHAT'S THE CAREER PATH. THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THE SOCIAL SECTOR THAT CALL THEMSELVES SOCIAL WORKERS, BUT WHAT SHOULD A QUALIFIED, REGISTERED SOCIAL WORKER LOOK LIKE? ONE THING YOU HAVE PROMISED IMMEDIATE ACTION ON IS THIS NATIONWIDE DRIVE TO GET MORE CAREGIVERS. HOW MANY DO YOU THINK YOU NEED? I THINK WE NEED A LOT MORE. A LOT MORE, AND THAT WILL BE DEFINED. BUT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT CAREGIVERS. LOOK, I THINK` WHAT THE REPORT IDENTIFIES IS MORE AND MORE OF THESE CHILDREN HAVE VERY HIGH AND COMPLEX NEEDS. WE SAW THIS WHEN THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE AND I WENT OVERSEAS EARLIER THIS YEAR. SOME CAREGIVERS, WE WILL NEED PEOPLE WITH HIGH, SPECIALIST CARE, BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE THAT FOR SOME OF THESE CHILDREN. THE AVERAGE FAMILY IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THAT. SO WE MIGHT NEED A STRUCTURED SYSTEM OF CAREGIVING. OK. WELL, ONE OF THE STATISTICS THAT YOU BROUGHT UP WAS HALF OF THE CAREGIVERS THAT WE'VE CURRENTLY GOT ARE ON BENEFITS. IS THAT AN IDEAL SITUATION? I DON'T THINK IT IS. I DON'T THINK IT IS FOR THE FAMILY WHO ARE ON A BENEFIT THAT WE KNOW` I MEAN, IT'S PRETTY HARD TO SURVIVE ON A BENEFIT. AND FOR THE CHILDREN THAT GO INTO THOSE HOMES, THEY'RE GOING INTO A HOME THAT WILL` THAT IS UNDER FINANCIAL STRESS. WHAT WE WANT FOR THESE CHILDREN IS A BETTER LIFE, SO WE NEED TO BE LOOKING BROADER AND WIDER TO NZ FAMILIES TO TAKE` TO TAKE THESE CHILDREN UNDER THEIR WING. NOW, SOME OF THAT WILL BE FOSTERING; SOME OF THAT MIGHT BE HOME FOR LIFE, WHICH IS SORT OF A MODERN ADOPTION. BASICALLY AM I RIGHT? YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SORT OF A A-TEAM OF CAREGIVERS? YES. YES, WE ARE. WE SAW IT IN NORWAY, ACTUALLY, WHERE CHILDREN THAT IDENTIFIED WITH THOSE HIGH AND COMPLEX NEEDS... THEY DESCRIBED THEM AS AN A-TEAM; I WOULDN'T SAY THAT. I'D JUST SAY` I'D JUST SAY WE'D BE LOOKING FOR SOME PEOPLE WITH SOME EXTRA SPECIAL SKILLS THAT WE MIGHT PAY MORE, WE MIGHT PROVIDE SPECIALIST SERVICES TO TAKE CARE OF THINGS. OK. WELL, YOU TALK ABOUT MORE PAYING MORE, AND I JUST WANT TO PICK UP ON THAT, BECAUSE CYF CAREGIVERS ARE PAID ABOUT $150-250 A WEEK. WE KNOW ONE PRIVATE COMPANY IS PAYING $600 A WEEK. SHOULD YOU BE MATCHING THAT KIND OF FIGURE? WELL, I THINK YOU'VE ALWAYS GOT TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT YOU'RE NOT SETTING UP A PROFESSIONAL CAREGIVING REGIME. AND WHEN YOU TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE FOSTERING, MOST OF THEM DON'T DO IT FOR THE MONEY. WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE WELL` THOSE CHILDREN ARE WELL-SUPPORTED FINANCIALLY SO THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO DO ALL THE THINGS THAT OTHER NZ CHILDREN CAN. SO THAT'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT ` INCREASING PAYMENTS. WE CERTAINLY ARE, AND THE SUPPORT THAT WE GIVE TO CAREGIVERS. I MEAN, THE CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER TALKED ABOUT A 'DUMP AND RUN', AND THAT COMES THROUGH TO ME CLEARLY FROM THOSE FOSTER KIDS ORGANISATIONS. BUT EVERYTHING I'M HEARING SCREAMS MONEY. IT SCREAMS MONEY, AND YOUR OWN PANEL SAYS THIS IS GOING TO TAKE SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT. SO WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING YOU DON'T WANT TO THROW MONEY AT THIS? IT'S BECAUSE WE WANT TO INVEST MONEY SENSIBLY IN AREAS SO THE IMMEDIATE REACTION FROM PEOPLE WHEN THE CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER'S REPORT CAME OUT WAS, 'YOU'VE GOT TO PUT MORE MONEY IN HERE. YOU NEED MORE SOCIAL WORKERS. YOU NEED MORE MONEY.' WE'VE SEEN THAT OVER THE YEARS. EVERY GOVERNMENT HAS DONE EXACTLY THAT, AND NOTHING'S CHANGED FOR THOSE KIDS. WHAT I'M SAYING IS, 'YES, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT MORE MONEY IN, 'BUT LET'S MAKE SURE WE'RE PUTTING IT INTO THE RIGHT PLACES 'THAT ARE GOING TO GET THE BEST OUTCOMES FOR THE KIDS.' AND THAT MIGHT BE IN GETTING THEM MORE PSYCHOLOGICAL SUPPORT TO DEAL WITH THEIR INITIAL TRAUMA. THAT MIGHT NEED GETTING THEM CAREGIVERS AT THAT VERY EARLY STAGE. THE KIDS THEMSELVES TELL US ` AND I'VE SET UP A YOUTH ADVISORY GROUP OF YOUNG PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN THROUGH CARE; THERE'S A COUPLE OF THEM STILL IN CARE ` THEY SAY MAKE THAT` THEY SAY TO US, 'MAKE THAT FIRST PLACEMENT THE BEST PLACEMENT FOR US.' OK. JUST IN TERMS OF MONEY, YOU ARE ASKING, OR WANT TO SET UP AN AGENCY THAT ADVOCATES FOR THE KIDS, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO PAY FOR THAT. YOU'RE LOOKING FOR PHILANTHROPIC PEOPLE TO STEP IN. SO THE REPORT- NO, I HAVEN'T SAID THE GOVERNMENT WON'T PAY FOR IT. THE REPORT SAYS AND YOU ANNOUNCED ` THAT YOU'RE TALKING TO THE CHARITY SECTOR, BASICALLY, TO FUND THIS. ISN'T THAT CORE GOVERNMENT BUSINESS, THOUGH? NO, WHAT` NO, WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO DO WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS LET THE YOUNG PEOPLE DECIDE HOW THEY WANT THAT ORGANISATION TO WORK. I DON'T HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO PUTTING GOVERNMENT MONEY INTO IT, BUT I WANT IT SO THAT IT WORKS FOR THEM. SO WHAT I'M SAYING TO MY YOUTH ADVISORY PANEL, THE DINGWALL TRUST PANEL; I THINK THERE'S ANOTHER GROUP OUT THERE ` 'THERE'S A GROUP OF PHILANTHROPISTS THAT ARE OUT THERE. 'THEY WANT TO HELP YOU, AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR WAYS TO ASSIST YOU. 'I'M HAPPY THAT YOU CAN, WITH THE PANEL, HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS 'AND THEN COME BACK TO US IN THE FINAL REPORT.' IF THERE'S GOING TO BE GOVERNMENT MONEY NEEDED, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. BUT I DON'T WANT TO DESIGN IT. I WANT THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO DESIGN IT. OK, BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE WOULD REGARD THAT AS ALMOST LIKE OUTSOURCING BY STEALTH, HAVING THAT GO TO ANOTHER AGENCY OR CHARITY TO FUND- WELL, IF THEY BECOME A LOBBY GROUP THAT WANTS TO BE ABLE TO CRITICISE GOVERNMENT AND HOLD GOVERNMENT TO ACCOUNT, THEY MIGHT NEED SOME INDEPENDENCE. BUT ARE YOU SAYING`? THERE ARE OTHER GOVERNMENT BODIES, OR FUNDED BY GOVERNMENT. ARE YOU SAYING THEY DON'T HAVE INDEPENDENCE, LIKE THE INDEPENDENT POLICE CONDUCT AUTHORITY, LIKE THE OMBUDSMAN, LIKE THE CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER? THEY'RE INDEPENDENT, AND THEY GET FUNDED. YES, THEY ARE, BUT THEY ARE STATUTORILY INDEPENDENT, THIS IS AN ADVOCACY GROUP. AS I'VE SAID, I WANT THEM TO DESIGN IT, AND IF THEY COME BACK TO ME AND SAY, 'WE WANT SOME SEEDING MONEY UNDERNEATH THAT FROM GOVERNMENT TO KEEP IT GOING,' I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS I WANT TO GET THROUGH IN THE TIME WE'VE GOT LEFT. VERY QUICKLY, THE PRIME MINISTER HASN'T RULED OUT MORE OUTSOURCING. THE REPORT MAKES LITTLE MENTION OF THAT. CAN YOU RULE OUT TODAY THAT YOU WON'T BE OUTSOURCING FRONT-LINE CARE AND PROTECTION SERVICES? LOOK, I` LET'S PUT IT TO REST. THIS IS A STATE RESPONSIBILITY. THERE'S NO TALK WITHIN GOVERNMENT AT ALL OF OUTSOURCING THAT RESPONSIBILITY. ONE LAST THING BEFORE WE GO YOU ARE LOOKING AT PLACEMENTS IN FAMILY/WHANAU SITUATIONS, BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN BAD OUTCOMES AND REABUSE, REVICTIMISATION. DO YOU HAVE THE NUMBERS? IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THAT FAMILY-FIRST APPROACH, WHICH IS IN THE LEGISLATION, DO YOU HAVE THE NUMBERS TO MAKE A CHANGE TO THAT? I THINK THE REPORT'S MAKING THE CASE THAT WE HAVE TO THINK DIFFERENTLY. IN MANY CASES, FAMILIES CAN TAKE CARE` BUT WOULD YOU HAVE THE NUMBERS TO GET THAT THROUGH? BECAUSE THE MAORI PARTY IS NOT GOING TO SUPPORT IT; PETER DUNNE SAYS THAT HE LIKES THE APPROACH OF TARIANA TURIA, WHICH IS GIVING THOSE FAMILIES MORE SUPPORT, NOT TAKING THE CHILDREN AWAY. I THINK WHERE I COME FROM` I DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T STARTED TALKING, BUT I THINK IT'S A GOOD CONVERSATION WE HAVE TO HAVE ` WHOSE AGENDA IS MOST IMPORTANT? SO FOR ME, I'M UNASHAMEDLY ON THE SIDE OF THE CHILDREN. IF THEIR FAMILY CAN BE SUPPORTED AND GET THEMSELVES BACK ON TRACK AND PROVIDE A SAFE AND GREAT ENVIRONMENT FOR THOSE KIDS, I'M ALL FOR THAT. BUT I WANT THOSE KIDS TO HAVE THE BEST OPPORTUNITY FOR A GOOD LIFE. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING, MINISTER ANNE TOLLEY. WE'LL DISCUSS THE MINISTER'S PLANS WITH THE PANEL LATER, BUT COMING UP ` SHE'S ONE OF THE MOST SENIOR CHINESE POLITICIANS EVER TO DO AN INTERVIEW ON NZ TELEVISION. WE SIT DOWN WITH THE CHAIR OF CHINA'S FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE, MADAME FU YING, TO TALK ABOUT CHINESE INVESTMENT AND WHAT SHE MAKES OF THE LOCHINVER DECISION. BACK SOON. WELL, THIS WEEK PANDA DIPLOMACY HOGGED THE HEADLINES. AMIDST THE DEBATE ABOUT THE PUSH TO BRING GIANT PANDAS TO WELLINGTON, ONE OF CHINA'S TOP FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICIALS PAID HER FIRST FORMAL VISIT TO NZ. MADAME FU YING IS THE CHAIR OF THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE OF CHINA'S ALL POWERFUL NATIONAL PEOPLE'S CONGRESS. HER TOP-SHELF CREDENTIALS INCLUDE STINTS AS VICE FOREIGN MINISTER AND AMBASSADOR TO THE UK AND AUSTRALIA. NOW, WHEN SAT DOWN WITH MADAME FU YING IN AUCKLAND THIS WEEK, I BEGAN BY ASKING HER ABOUT THE CHINA-LED ASIAN INFRASTRUCTURE BANK THAT NZ IS CONTRIBUTING TO AND HOW CHINA VIEWS NZ. SHE TOLD ME THAT WHILE NZ'S SMALL, IT'S UNIQUE AMONG DEVELOPED NATIONS. I'VE FOUND THAT NZ HAS BEEN VERY CONSISTENT IN ITS POLICY TOWARDS CHINA, PROMOTING COOPERATION AND ADDRESSING THE DIFFICULTIES WHEN THEY ARISE, ADDRESSING VERY SWIFTLY, EFFECTIVELY, SO WE FIND NZ A RELIABLE PARTNER. FOR CHINA, ONE VERY IMPORTANT FOREIGN-POLICY PRINCIPLE IS THAT COUNTRIES BIG OR SMALL ARE EQUALS, SO BETWEEN ALL COUNTRIES, LIKE BROTHERS. WHAT OPPORTUNITIES ARE THERE FOR OUR TWO COUNTRIES TO WORK TOGETHER? THE OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES ARE ALL NEW FOR CHINA AND PROBABLY FOR NZ. FOR EXAMPLE, CHINA'S TRADE WITH NZ ROSE WITH A STRONG MOMENTUM AFTER THE FTA, BUT NOW IT'S SLOWING DOWN; IT'S EVEN FALLING, THE BILATERAL TRADE. AS A MATTER OF FACT, CHINA'S INTERNATIONAL TRADE HAS BEEN SLOWING DOWN FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS, AND IT'S AFFECTING CHINA-NZ TRADE THE FIRST HALF OF THIS YEAR. SO NZ - BOTH NZ AND CHINA NEED TO BE AWARE OF THE NEW TREND. CHINA'S ECONOMY IS SLOWING DOWN; THE GROWTH IS SLOWING DOWN. IT'S IN A CHANGING-GEAR PERIOD, THE ECONOMIC STRUCTURE IS UNDERGOING TRANSFORMATION FROM, FOR EXAMPLE, LABOUR-INTENSIVE TO MAYBE TECHNOLOGY ` MORE VALUE ADDED ` DIRECTION. IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT TRANSITION. WE ARE UNDERGOING DEEPER REFORMS. WE HOPE THAT NZ WILL BE AWARE AND WILL GO ALONG WITH THIS TREND AND MOVE INTO A HIGHER LEVEL OF COOPERATION WITH CHINA. THE AMBASSADOR TOLD ME THAT FROM JULY LAST YEAR TO JULY THIS YEAR, CHINESE TOURISM HAS BEEN RISING WITH A VERY STRONG MOMENTUM, SO THE WHOLE ECONOMIC STRUCTURE AND LIFESTYLE IN CHINA ARE CHANGING. THE SERVICES SECTOR AND THE CONSUMER, CONSUMPTION SECTOR IN CHINA IS RISING, SO WE HOPE OUR RELATIONSHIP WILL MOVE ALONG WITH THE TIDE TO A HIGHER LEVEL. WE ARE ALREADY DISCUSSING THE UPGRADING OF OUR FTA. I HOPE WE'LL SOON LAUNCH THE NEGOTIATIONS WHICH WILL HELP OUR RELATIONSHIP IN THAT DIRECTION. YOU MENTIONED ALREADY THE ASIAN INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT BANK. WITH SO MANY OTHER INTERNATIONAL BODIES, WHY DID CHINA SEE THE NEED FOR THIS BANK? VERY GOOD QUESTION. IT'S RAISED IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD TOO. THE INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT FOR THE DEVELOPING WORLD, FOR ASIA, HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE FOCUS, AND IN CHINA OVER THE PAST DECADES, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT SUCCESS IN CHINA'S ECONOMIC ROLES IS VERY STRONG INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT. CHINA REALISES THAT THE WHOLE REGION AND EVEN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, NEEDS INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT, AND THE BOTTLENECK, THE BOTTLENECK HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE FUNDING SIDE. WE HAVE, FOR EXAMPLE, WORLD BANK, WE HAVE ASIAN DEVELOPMENT BANK, BUT MOST OF THEM ARE FOCUSING ON POVERTY ALLEVIATION, FROM WHICH CHINA ALSO BENEFITED GREATLY, BUT THERE'S NO SPECIAL FINANCIAL SUPPORT FOR INFRASTRUCTURE, AND CHINA WOULD LIKE TO MAKE THAT SUPPORT, BUT WE CANNOT DO IT ALONE. WELL, CHINA HAS GROWING CLOUT BOTH ECONOMIC POWER BUT ALSO ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE. SO WHAT DO YOU SEE AS CHINA'S ROLE IN THE ASIA REGION? HMM, I THINK CHINA'S MAIN EMPHASIS, FOCUS IS STILL DOMESTIC. THERE IS STRONG ECONOMIC GROWTH, BUT WE NEED TO BE AWARE THAT THERE IS A BIG DISPARITY IN THE DEVELOPMENT SO IN A LONG TIME TO COME, I THINK CHINA'S POTENTIAL AND CHINA'S FOCUS WOULD ALL BE WITHIN THE COUNTRY. THE EFFORT WOULD BE MAINLY ON HOW TO FURTHER IMPROVE THE LIVELIHOOD OF THE PEOPLE. IN THE MEANTIME, AS CHINA'S ECONOMIC STRENGTH IS GROWING AND ALSO BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT CHINA HAS BENEFITED GREATLY FROM THE REGION AND FROM THE WORLD IN ITS DEVELOPMENT, IT WILL AND IT SHOULD PLAY GREATER ROLE IN THE REGION AND IN THE WORLD, BUT I BELIEVE MAINLY IN AREAS WHERE CHINA IS GOOD AT, FOR EXAMPLE, CHINA IS STRONG IN INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT, SO IT WILL BE ABLE TO PROVIDE MORE PUBLIC GOODS IN THIS AREA. BECAUSE YOU WILL BE AWARE, MADAME FU YING, THAT SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT CHINA AND THINK THAT IT IS COMPETING, MAYBE, WITH THE UNITED STATES TO BE THE BIG BOSS IN THE ASIA-PACIFIC REGION. WHAT IS THE CASE? TRUE, THERE IS SUCH TALK, BUT I THINK CHINA SEES THE WORLD IN A DIFFERENT ANGLE. WE, AS I MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING, THAT WE SEE ALL COUNTRIES AS EQUALS; WE THINK THE RELATIONSHIP AMONG COUNTRIES SHOULD BE BASED ON EQUALITY, MUTUAL BENEFIT AND MUTUAL RESPECT. SO WE DON'T WANT TO BOSS ON OTHERS, JUST AS WE HAVE NOT ACCEPTED THE BOSS ON US. SO WE HOPE THE ASIA-PACIFIC, CHINA, US, WOULD ALL BE IN A RELATIONSHIP OF COOPERATION. IF THERE ARE DIFFICULTIES WE SHOULD DISCUSS, WE SHOULD SOLVE THEM, SEEK TO SOLVE THEM. IF WE CAN'T SOLVE THEM, WE CAN MAYBE SHELVE THEM. BECAUSE SOME OF THE LANGUAGE IS LANGUAGE OF CONTAINING CHINA, OR KEEPING CHINA UNDER CONTROL. YES, THERE ARE SUCH A TALK. IT IS EURO TRADITIONAL POWER POLITICS LANGUAGE. I THINK, FOR EXAMPLE, CHINA-US US IS THE BIGGEST DEVELOPED COUNTRY, VERY STRONG ` THE STRONGEST POWER IN THE WORLD. US HAS LOTS OF ADVANTAGES, AND CHINA HAS A LOT TO LEARN FROM THE UNITED STATES. CHINA IS THE BIGGEST DEVELOPING COUNTRY. IT'S STILL CONFRONTED LOTS OF CHALLENGES, ALTHOUGH IT HAS MADE STRONG PROGRESS. AND IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CHINA-US, THERE IS A GREAT INTERDEPENDENCY. THE TRADE BILATERAL TRADE IS US$555 BILLION ` VERY BIG. SO IT'S A VERY VERY STRONG RELATIONSHIP. BUT ALSO A COMPLEX RELATIONSHIP TOO. TRUE, TRUE. THERE ARE DIFFERENCES. SO FOR A COUNTRY LIKE NZ, WHO IS FRIENDS WITH BOTH AMERICA AND CHINA, IS THERE A WORRY THAT NZ WILL HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THOSE FRIENDS? CHINA BELIEVES THAT IF THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN COUNTRIES, WE SHOULD DISCUSS THEM OR WE CAN PUT IT ASIDE. WE SHOULD MOVE IN A POSITIVE AREA. BUT US SOMETIMES MAY WANT CHINA TO JUST ACCEPT. THAT'S SOMETIMES DIFFICULT FOR CHINA. AS FOR NZ, I DON'T THINK THERE IS A QUESTION OF CHOOSING. NZ CAN AGREE WITH CHINA; CAN DISAGREE WITH CHINA; IT CAN AGREE WITH US OR DISAGREE. IT'S FOR NZ TO CHOOSE. BUT I DON'T THINK THE RELATIONSHIP OR DIFFICULTIES BETWEEN CHINA AND THE US WILL AFFECT CHINA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH NZ IN ANY WAY ` NOT AT ALL. THEY ARE VERY SEPARATE RELATIONSHIPS. AND IN THE WHOLE WORLD, THE GENERAL TREND IN THE CHINA-US RELATIONSHIP IS COOPERATION, AND THE WORLD STANDS TO GAIN IN CHINA-US COOPERATION. IF WE HAVE VERY SERIOUS CONFLICTS OF INTERESTS BETWEEN CHINA-US, IT'LL HURT THE REGION, HURT THE WORLD AS WELL. SO CHINA-US NEEDS TO BE CAREFUL TOO IN MANAGING THEIR RELATIONSHIP. BECAUSE NZ HAS DEEP RELATIONSHIPS WITH A NUMBER OF ASIAN COUNTRIES, SO, FOR EXAMPLE, ANY TENSION OVER ISLANDS IN THE EAST AND SOUTH CHINA SEAS ARE A CONCERN FOR US. SO HOW DOES CHINA SEE THAT DISPUTE BEING RESOLVED? ACTUALLY, IT'S NOT A DISPUTE. THE DISPUTES EXISTED WHEN CHINA STARTED JOINING THE REGIONAL COOPERATION IN THE '90S. BUT WE MANAGED TO HAVE A KIND OF CONSENSUS AMONG THE ASEAN COUNTRIES AND CHINA AND ALSO BETWEEN CHINA AND THE INDEPENDENT ` THE SEPARATE DISPUTED COUNTRIES. BUT THE RECENT TENSION STARTED BY SOME PROVOCATIONS, WHICH ARE OF OUR CONCERN AS WELL, AND I THINK CHINA HAS TO REACT AND REACT SWIFTLY AND CLEARLY TO THE COUNTRIES WHO WANTED TO ` WHO CHALLENGED CHINA IN THE REGION. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, WE HAVE NOT GIVEN UP ` WE HAVE NOT GIVEN UP THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE OF SEEKING SOLUTION TO THE DISPUTE THROUGH PEACEFUL DIALOGUES AND MAINTAINING REGIONAL PEACE AND STABILITY THROUGH DIALOGUES. THAT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL STAND OF CHINA'S. WE'LL TAKE A QUICK BREAK, BUT WHEN WE RETURN, MADAM FU YING'S REACTION TO LABOUR'S USE OF CHINESE SURNAMES AND NATIONAL'S LOCHINVER VETO, SO DO STAY WITH US. YOU'RE BACK WITH THE NATION, AND WE'RE RETURNING TO OUR INTERVIEW WITH MADAM FU YING, CHAIR OF THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE OF CHINA'S NATIONAL PEOPLE'S CONGRESS. NOW, CHINA'S REPORTEDLY BUILDING A THIRD AIRSTRIP IN DISPUTED WATERS IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, SO I ASKED HER HOW THAT SQUARES WITH ITS POSITION OF PEACEFUL DEVELOPMENT IN THE REGION. WE DON'T SEE IT CONTRADICTORY, BECAUSE WE ARE BUILDING, WE ARE HAVING CONSTRUCTIONS ON OUR OWN TERRITORY ` ON OUR OWN ISLAND AND SHORES. WE ARE NOT AFFECTING, WE ARE NOT INFRINGING UPON THE INTERESTS OF ANYBODY AT ALL. OBVIOUSLY THE OTHER COUNTRIES, MADAME FU YING, WOULD DISPUTE THAT. MANY OTHER COUNTRIES CLAIM RIGHTS TO THAT AREA AS WELL. AND YOU SPOKE OF PROVOCATION, SO THEY MAY ALSO REGARD THAT AS PROVOCATIVE BEHAVIOUR. I THINK CHINA IS - OVER THE PAST YEAR CHINA'S REACTING TO THE DEVELOPMENT AROUND THE DISPUTED ISLANDS IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. CHINA TALKED ON MANY OCCASIONS WITH THE ASEAN COUNTRIES TO BE ABLE TO DISCIPLINISE THEIR OWN MEMBERS, TO ABIDE BY THE DOC WE AGREED UPON, AND MANY OF THOSE MEMBERS OF ASEAN COUNTRIES DID NOT ABIDE BY WHAT THEY AGREED WITH US. BUT, AS I SAID, THE END PURPOSE IS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEACE AND STABILITY LASTS. AND CHINA ON THE ONE HAND NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO PROVOCATIONS. ON THE OTHER HAND CHINA SHOULD NOT GIVE UP HOPE OF COMING BACK TO THE AGREEMENT CHINA AND ASEAN COUNTRIES AGREED ON TO MAINTAIN PEACE AND STABILITY IN THE REGION AND TO PURSUE DIALOGUE, TO PURSUE SOLUTION OF THE PROBLEMS THROUGH DIALOGUES. HOW CONCERNED IS CHINA ABOUT JAPAN BUILDING ITS MILITARY? I THINK IN CHINA-JAPANESE RELATIONSHIP, THE BIGGEST CONCERN IS THEIR ATTITUDES ON HISTORY. THE JAPANESE PRIME MINISTER AND TO SOME EXTENT CERTAIN SECTORS IN JAPAN, I THINK THEY ARE RELUCTANT TO ADMIT THAT THERE WAS A CRIME COMMITTED DURING THE WAR, AND THEY ARE RELUCTANT TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE FEELING IN CHINA ABOUT THE WAR. THIS IS 70 YEARS ANNIVERSARY OF THE VICTORY OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR. AND WITHOUT A KIND OF RECONCILIATION ON THE WAR CRIMES, I THINK THERE'S ALWAYS A DIFFICULTY. I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR CHINA AND JAPAN TO` I THINK FOR THE RELATIONSHIP TO MOVE SMOOTHLY. THIS IS A PAINFUL, PAINFUL WOUND IN THE RELATIONSHIP WHICH COMES UP AGAIN AND AGAIN BECAUSE OF THE RHETORIC, BECAUSE OF THE ATTITUDE, BECAUSE OF THE` SOMETIMES THE BEHAVIOUR. LET'S TALK ABOUT NZ AND CHINA. NEW INVESTMENT RULES IN CHINA MEANS THAT CHINESE CITIZENS ARE POTENTIALLY GOING TO HAVE MORE MONEY TO INVEST OFFSHORE ` TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS, PERHAPS. HOW INTERESTED DO YOU THINK THEY WILL BE IN INVESTING IN NZ? I THINK CHINA HAS COME TO THAT STAGE, AFTER YEARS OF BEING A MAIN ATTRACTION OF INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT, WHICH WE'RE STILL MAKING AN EFFORT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE ATTRACTIVE TO INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT. AT THE SAME TIME, CHINA HAS ACCUMULATED FOREIGN CAPITAL TOO, AND CHINA IS ABLE TO INVEST ABROAD. CHINESE COMPANIES, CHINESE INDIVIDUALS ARE VERY INTERESTED IN INVESTING ABROAD. NZ, THE AMBASSADOR TOLD ME THAT MORE AND MORE COMPANIES ARE COMING IN THIS WAY TO LOOK FOR INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITIES. AND NZ HAS BEEN, HAS BEEN REGARDED AS A VERY GOOD PLACE FOR INVESTMENT. THERE IS CONSISTENT POLICY, AND THERE IS ALSO, I THINK, POLITICAL MESSAGES FROM NZ ABOUT WELCOMING CHINESE INVESTMENT. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT MESSAGE MIGHT BE MIXED, THOUGH? I MEAN, THE MAIN OPPOSITION PARTY SPARKED A LOT OF DEBATE HERE IN NZ WHEN IT RELEASED DATA SHOWING THAT A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH CHINESE SURNAMES HAD BOUGHT PROPERTIES IN AUCKLAND SPECIFICALLY. DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS THAT CHINESE PEOPLE ARE BECOMING A POLITICAL TARGET HERE? I HOPE NOT. I HOPE NOT. THE CHINESE CITIZENS ARE BUYING PROPERTIES, FOR EXAMPLE, IN LONDON, IN US ` EVEN IN FIJI I WAS TOLD THAT THERE IS GROWING INTEREST. I THINK` I HOPE THE CHINESE INVESTORS ` COMPANIES, INDIVIDUALS WHEREVER THEY ARE, SHOULD ABIDE BY THE RULES AND LAWS OF THE COUNTRIES CONCERNED. ON THE OTHER HAND, WE ALSO HOPE THAT THE COUNTRIES HAVE A FAIR ATTITUDE TOWARDS CHINESE INVESTORS. THEY ARE LIKE FROM ANY OTHER COUNTRY, AND THEY SHOULD BE RESPECTED AS WELL. BECAUSE, MADAM FU YING, THERE WAS A RECENT DECISION, IN RESPECT OF LOCHINVER STATION THAT A CHINESE COMPANY WANTED TO INVEST IN. YOU TALK ABOUT THE RULES BEING APPLIED FAIRLY TO EVERYONE. IS IT FELT THAT THE RULES WERE APPLIED FAIRLY IN THIS CASE WHEN THIS WAS TURNED DOWN AS AN INVESTMENT? I'M SURE IT WAS A BIG DISAPPOINTMENT TO THE INVESTOR. WHEN I WAS IN US, VISITING THE US TWO YEARS AGO, THERE WAS AN INVESTMENT BY A CHINESE PRIVATE COMPANY TO BUY SMITHFIELD, THE PORK-PRODUCING COMPANY IN US ` US$7 BILLION. AND THERE WAS A DEBATE IN THE PARLIAMENT TOO. WE TALKED WITH THEM, WE EXPLAINED TO THEM WHAT KIND OF COMPANY THAT WAS. BUT THE INVESTMENT WAS ACCEPTED. THEY ARE DOING VERY WELL NOW IN THE UNITED STATES. SO I DON'T SEE WHY CHINESE INVESTORS CANNOT BE SUCCESSFUL HERE. BUT I CAN'T COMMENT ON YOUR DOMESTIC POLITICS, BUT I HOPE THE MESSAGE IS CLEAR AND CONSISTENT, BECAUSE IF IT'S A MIXED MESSAGE, PEOPLE WILL WONDER IS IT A GOOD INVESTMENT PLACE OR NOT? GENERALLY SPEAKING, I THINK NZ HAS A VERY GOOD REPUTATION IN CHINA, AND WE HOPE YOU VALUE THAT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, MADAM FU YING. WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU. WELL, WE DIDN'T GET INTO PANDA DIPLOMACY IN THAT CONVERSATION, OF COURSE, BUT WE DID ASK THE CHINESE EMBASSY WHAT IT THOUGHT OF JOHN KEY'S IDEA. NOW, A SPOKESMAN FOR THE EMBASSY HAS SAID THAT THEY NOTICED THE NEWS IN THE MEDIA AND IF THERE WAS ANY INTEREST FROM NZ, IT WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS IT. THE INTERESTING POINT THERE BEING THAT THEY HAVEN'T ACTUALLY BEEN APPROACHED BY ANYONE YET, IT SEEMS. WE'LL UNPICK FU YING'S DIPLOMATIC LANGUAGE WITH THE PANEL IN A MINUTE, BUT FIRST HERE'S JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` IS LABOUR MIFFED AT THE GREENS? WELL, THAT DEPENDS WHAT A MIFF IS. IT'S LIKE A TIFF BUT MUFFLED. OH, RIGHT. MM. WELL, THE REDS ARE CERTAINLY PIQUED ABOUT RED PEAK, ALL RIGHT, AREN'T THEY, GREEN AT THE GILLS THAT THE GREENS GOT THE BLUES TO GREEN-LIGHT THE RED PEAK BACK INTO THE PACK TO STACK THE ATTACK ON THE UNION JACK. WELL, SUMMED UP, PAUL. THE GREENS SCORED BIG TIME. LABOUR LEARNED THAT WHEN YOU'RE IN OPPOSITION, YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE IN OPPOSITION. TRUE, AND JOHN KEY LEARNED THAT WHEN YOU'RE THE LEADER, SOMETIMES YOU CAN JUST FOLLOW. HE HAS PULLED A FEW U-TURNS LATELY, HASN'T HE? OH, LIKE A V-DUB TRYING TO ESCAPE AN EMISSION TEST. THE OTHER BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` HOW MANY KIWIS DOES IT TAKE TO SWAP FOR A PANDA? IT'S NOT THE PANDA THAT COSTS YOU, THOUGH, IS IT? IT'S THE BAMBOO. MM. GIVE THEM THE RAZOR, SELL THEM THE BLADES. PANDAS DON'T SHAVE, MATE. THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING. I MEAN, PEOPLE GET EXCITED ABOUT IT, BUT 95% OF THE TIME THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NOTHING GOING ON. IT'S LIKE A FURRY RUGBY WORLD CUP. EXACTLY. I MEAN, WHY DO WE EVEN NEED A PANDA? YOU KNOW, WHAT'S MIKE MOORE DOING? EXACTLY. HE COULD SIT THERE SILENTLY PRETENDING TO BE ONE. IT COULD BE A PANDA-MIME. SERIOUSLY? I REALLY WISH I HAD SOME PINEAPPLE TO OFFER YOU RIGHT NOW. MM. PAUL, I CAN'T BELIEVE WE DIDN'T SLIP IN A PIG PUN. TRUE. IT'S A PORCINE. YOU'RE BACK WITH THE NATION AND TODAY'S PANEL. BUT BEFORE WE CRACK INTO THAT, A FEW TWEETS THAT CAUGHT OUR EYE THIS WEEK. AN OLD PHOTO OF BRITAIN'S ED MILIBAND SUDDENLY MADE SENSE FOR SOME, AFTER THIS WEEK'S CLAIM ABOUT DAVID CAMERON AND A DEAD PIG. ON THE PLUS-SIDE FOR JOHN KEY, THE SO-CALLED 'HAMERON' SCANDAL MAKES HIS HORSING ROUND SEEM A LITTLE LESS WEIRD. AND RED PEAK'S WEEK HAD SOME SEEING DEMONS AND OTHERS ASKING ` RIGHT. IT'S TIME TO WELCOME HIVE NEWS PUBLISHER BERNARD HICKEY; FORMER INTERNET PARTY LEADER-NOW TURNED-RESTAURATEUR LAILA HARRE; AND PR SUPREMO MATTHEW HOOTON. GOOD MORNING TO YOU ALL. I WANT TO START WITH THE ANNE TOLLEY INTERVIEW. AS WE POINTED OUT, WE'VE HAD A BUNCH OF REVIEWS AND RESHUFFLES AT CYF ` ONE EVERY TWO YEARS ON AVERAGE. IS SHE GOING TO HAVE ANY MORE SUCCESS, SIGNIFICANTLY MORE SUCCESS WITH WHAT SHE'S PUSHING FOR? WELL, I THOUGHT HER JACKET WAS THE APPROPRIATE COLOUR, REALLY, AND THE BUTTER WOULDN'T MELT IN HER MOUTH IN RELATION TO THIS ISSUE. TWO WORDS ` MAGEE AND CLOTHES. YOU KNOW, SEVEN YEARS AGO, WE HAD A PRIME MINISTER WINNING THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF NZERS BY SAYING THAT HE WOULD BE THERE REPRESENTING THE UNDERCLASS. ABSOLUTELY NO PROGRESS FOR THESE VULNERABLE FAMILIES. I THINK THE, SORT OF, RESERVED OPTIMISM THAT OPPOSITION PARTIES AND THE SOCIAL SECTOR EXPRESSED WITH THE RELEASE OF THIS REPORT WAS REALLY JUST RELIEF, THAT IT WASN'T DECLARING A COMPLETE ONSLAUGHT INTO CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY SERVICES. ALL THE RHETORIC IN THERE IS REPEATED FROM EARLIER REPORTS. THERE ISN'T A LOT OF INFO` NEW INFORMATION. AND WHEN ANNE TOLLEY SAYS THIS GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY DEALT WITH, SORT OF, A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS IN THIS AREA AND THIS IS THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG, LET'S JUST LOOK AT THAT NUMBER. WE HEARD AND SAW IN THE REPORT THAT 35% OF MAORI CHILDREN ARE KNOWN TO CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY BEFORE THEY TURN 5. 30% OF CHILDREN BORN ARE MAORI. SO JUST FOR MAORI ALONE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 10% OF THE TOTAL CHILDHOOD POPULATION. THAT IS NOT THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT, BERNARD? BECAUSE SHE HAS SAID PREVIOUSLY THAT SHE'S NOT GOING TO THROW MONEY AT THIS. BUT A LOT OF THE STUFF THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THERE ` GETTING MORE SOCIAL WORKERS, OR MORE FACE TIME WITH KIDS WITH SOCIAL WORKERS, AND PAYING CAREGIVERS, POTENTIALLY. IT'S ALL MONEY. YEAH, BUT IT'S INTERESTING. THE GOVERNMENT'S APPROACH AROUND INVESTING IN PEOPLE TO TRY AND REDUCE THE LONG-TERM COST TO THE TAXPAYER, THAT IS AN INTERESTING LOGIC FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO ACTUALLY THROW A LOT OF MONEY AT THIS, BECAUSE THEIR OWN STUDIES` THEY'RE STARTING TO UNDERSTAND NOW THAT IF YOU CAN TURN SOMEONE AROUND AT A VERY YOUNG AGE, THEN YOU CAN REDUCE A LOT OF HARM AND PAIN AND COST OVER THE LONG RUN. SO THE PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION JUST IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO HAS COME OUT WITH A REPORT ON SOCIAL SERVICES, WHICH ESTIMATES THAT THE MOST` THE MOST POVERTY-STRICKEN 10,000 ON BENEFITS OVER THEIR LIFETIME WILL COST $6.5 BILLION. SO THE GOVERNMENT CAN ACTUALLY JUSTIFY TO ITSELF SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY UPFRONT IN IMPROVING THE LIVES OF PEOPLE AND THESE KIDS SO THAT IN THE LONG RUN, THEY'RE ACTUALLY BETTER OFF, AND SO IS THE TAXPAYER. YEAH, BECAUSE, MATTHEW, SHE DID ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT MORE MONEY, SO... WELL, THERE WILL BE MORE MONEY. THAT'S OBVIOUS. BUT I THINK THAT, UM, SHE'S MAKING THE RIGHT CALL BY NOT FRAMING THE CONVERSATION IN THOSE TERMS. YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER... (LAUGHS SOFTLY) PROBABLY 20` NEARLY 25 YEARS AGO SITTING IN PRESS SECRATARIES' MEETINGS IN THE EIGHTH FLOOR OF THE BEEHIVE, AND BRONWYN SAUNDERS WAS JENNY SHIPLEY'S PRESS SECRETARY, MINISTER OF SOCIAL WELFARE, AND EVERY WEEK SHE WOULD COME UP, AND INEVITABLY IT WOULD BE, SO LAILA'S CRITIQUE IS ALL FAIR ENOUGH, BUT FOR 25 YEARS, AT LEAST, THIS AGENCY HAS NOT SUCCEEDED FOR` FOR WHATEVER REASON. I'M NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA, BUT FOR 25 YEARS, IT HAS NOT SUCCEEDED. THERE'D BEEN MANY REPORTS, THERE'D BEEN MANY RECOMMENDATIONS. THERE'D BEEN LOTS MORE MONEY, SPENT A LOT MORE ON SOCIAL WORKERS, SO I THINK` I HOPE IT'S NOT CHARACTERISTIC OF THE JOHN KEY GOVERNMENT, BUT I HOPE THAT SHE IS PREPARED TO RADICALLY SHAKE IT UP AND TAKE EXTREMELY GOOD ADVICE FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERTS AND RADICALLY SHAKE UP THE SYSTEM, BECAUSE THE INCREMENTAL APPROACH HAS CLEARLY FAILED FOR A QUARTER-CENTURY. AND PUTTING MORE MONEY IN HAS CLEARLY FAILED. BUT THE REALLY RADICAL APPROACH HERE, ACTUALLY, IS NOT JUST TO FOCUS ON THE SURFACES. I MEAN, IT REALLY IS THE 'AMBULANCE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CLIFF' APPROACH. ONE OF THE POINTS ANNE TOLLEY MADE IN THE INTERVIEW WAS THE STRESS THAT CAREGIVER FAMILIES ARE UNDER, WHO ARE ALSO LARGELY BENEFICIARY FAMILIES. NOW, YOU KNOW, YES, POURING MORE RESOURCES INTO THE CAREGIVER FAMILIES IS A KIND OF URGENT NECESSITY, BUT LET'S LOOK AT THE ROOT CAUSE OF THIS ISSUE. WELL, AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS` MOST OF THE CHILDREN BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF CYFS HAVE COME FROM BENEFICIARY FAMILIES. AND, LOOK, IF JOHN KEY BELIEVES IN ANYTHING` AND PAULA REBSTOCK'S LAST BIG MOVE ON THE SCENE WAS TO HELP PAULA BENNETT TO CUT BENEFITS. SO` I MEAN, IF WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT A CYCLE HERE` IF JOHN KEY BELIEVES IN ANYTHING, AS YOU'VE RIGHTLY` I MEAN, WHICH IS A DOUBTFUL PROPOSITION, BUT IF JOHN KEY BELIEVES IN ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL, I THINK IT IS THIS UNDERCLASS ISSUE AS YOU HAVE MENTIONED. NOW, HE HASN'T DONE MUCH, BUT HE HASN'T DONE MUCH AS PRIME MINISTER IN ANY AREA. BUT IF HE DOES BELIEVE IN ANYTHING, IT IS THIS AREA. THE GOVERNMENT HAS INCREASED` WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT, MATTHEW? BECAUSE IT'S WHAT HE'S CHOSEN TO BE HIS MAJOR THEME WHEN HE BECAME LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION. IT WAS` AS YOU'VE IDENTIFIED, IT WAS AN UNUSUAL THING. HE HAS INCREASED BENEFITS BY 25% ` THE FIRST TIME IN 40 YEARS. THAT` 25%? $25. $25 A WEEK FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 30 YEARS. (SPLUTTERS) YES, 40 YEARS, SINCE THE HOLYOAKE GOVERNMENT, THAT'S RIGHT. SO HE HAS DONE THIS IN A WAY THAT THE KIRK GOVERNMENT, THE MULDOON GOVERNMENT LANGE, CLARK, BOLGER, SHIPLEY ` NONE OF THEM DID THIS. IN A HIGHLY SYMBOLIC WAY. IT'S NOT HIGHLY SYMBOLIC. IT'S REAL MONEY FOR REAL PEOPLE. HE HAS CHOSEN THIS TO BE A PRIORITY, EVEN THOUGH THAT'S NOT POPULAR WITH A LOT OF HIS SUPPORTERS. SO I HOPE THAT THEY DO MAKE AN EXCEPTION WITH THIS REPORT AND THEY` THAT THE TOP FLOORS OF THE BEEHIVE ALLOW ANNE TOLLEY TO CARRY ON THE WAY SHE'S DOING AND ALLOW HER TO MAKE RADICAL CHANGE AND DON'T JUST DO A FEW POLLS AND FLICK 50 MILLION BUCKS IN IT, COS THAT'S HOW JOHN KEY NORMALLY RESPONDS TO ISSUES. TALKING ABOUT RADICAL CHANGE, BERNARD, OBVIOUSLY SOME PEOPLE WERE EXPECTING THAT, PERHAPS, THERE'D BE A HINT OF OUTSOURCING HERE, AND SHE CATEGORICALLY RULED THAT OUT IN THE INTERVIEW. SHE'D SAID 'NO WHOLESALE INCREASES' EARLIER IN THE WEEK, BUT TODAY WAS LIKE, 'NO.' BECAUSE THEY REALISE THAT THERE COULD BE SOME REAL POLITICAL HEAT GENERATED BY THIS ISSUE, EVEN THOUGH THE RESPONSE TO THE INITIAL REPORT HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, REASONABLY SUBDUED, THIS ISSUE OF WHANAU FIRST AS SOMETHING TO BE CHALLENGED, WHICH HAS BEEN RECOMMENDED BY THE REPORT, COULD REALLY CREATE SOME HEAT, PARTICULARLY IN THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MAORI PARTY. SO THEY HAVE TO BE A LITTLE BIT CAREFUL HERE THAT THEY DON'T CREATE A POLITICAL PROBLEM FOR THEMSELVES. IT'S ALSO AN ARTIFICIAL DISTINCTION AT ONE LEVEL. I MEAN, EVERY SINGLE SOCIAL WORKER WHO TAKES A JOB AND SELLS THEIR LABOUR TO CYPS IS A PRIVATE PERSON. I MEAN, THAT IS` THAT'S NOT ABOUT CONTRACTING OUT. BUT THINGS LIKE BARNADO'S ARE PRIVATE AGENCIES. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT MADAM` A WEE THING ON THAT, THOUGH. VERY QUICKLY. ANNE TOLLEY'S RULED OUT A VERY NARROW AREA. SHE SAID THAT THEY WON'T CONTRACT OUT THEIR STATUTORY RESPONSIBILITY, SO THEY'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CONTRACTING OUT THE POLICE FUNCTION, THE ACTUAL, UM, REMOVAL OF CHILDREN FROM THEIR FAMILIES AND PLACING THEM INTO CARE. SO YOU THINK IT'S STILL ON THE TABLE, CLEARLY? > THERE IS NO GUARANTEE FROM WHAT SHE SAID THAT THEY WON'T WHOLESALE CONTRACT OUT THE PROVISION OF CARE SERVICES. THE EXTREME LEFT-WING HAS AN IDEOLOGICAL PROBLEM WITH USING PRIVATE AGENCIES, BUT, YOU KNOW, IN MAORI SOCIETY, IT IS NOT A RADICAL THING TO HAVE PRIVATE` WHICH ARE PRIVATE AGENCIES INVOLVED, IWI ORGANISATIONS. I WANT TO MOVE QUICKLY ON TO CHINA. BERNARD, MADAM FU YING THERE. WHAT MESSAGE IS SHE SENDING US ABOUT CHINESE INVESTMENT THERE? I MEAN, SHE SAID AT THE END, 'I THINK NZ HAS A VERY GOOD REPUTATION IN CHINA. WE HOPE YOU VALUE THAT.' YES, THERE WAS A BIG DOT, DOT, DOT AT THE END OF THAT TO INSERT YOUR OWN MEANING. BIG PAUSE, A SMILE. (LAUGHS) YEAH. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT, UM, CHINA IS GOING TO WATCH CLOSELY ` HOW WE PARTICULARLY DEAL WITH THE NEXT BIG FARM SALES THAT ARE GOING TO SHANGHAI PENGXIN. THERE'S THE PINNY FARMS UP IN NORTHLAND AND ANOTHER FARM ` ABOUT $60 MILLION TO $70 MILLION WORTH ` WHICH ARE IN THE WORKS TO BE DECIDED ON BY THE OIO AS WELL AND THE MINISTERS, SO THEY WILL LOOK AT THIS AND GO, 'WELL, IF YOU REJECT THAT, THEN THERE'S OBVIOUSLY BEEN A CHANGE IN POLICY.' SO A VEILED WARNING ALMOST, WASN'T IT? THAT WAS THE FEEL I WAS GETTING, BUT ALSO SHE SAID, MATTHEW, THAT WE NEED TO BE CONSISTENT IN THE WAY ` CLEAR AND CONSISTENT WITH OUR MESSAGE ` AND THAT CHINA'S GOT NO PROBLEM AS LONG AS CHINESE INVESTORS ARE TREATED THE SAME AS ANY OTHER FOREIGN INVESTOR. DO YOU THINK THERE'S BEEN SOME INCONSISTENCY WITH THE LOCHINVER`? THAT NZERS ARE VERY COMFORTABLE WITH AUSTRALIAN INVESTMENT INTO NZ, THEN THEY'RE HAPPY WITH INVESTMENT FROM ENGLISH-SPEAKING COUNTRIES ` THE UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN ` THEN THEY'RE KIND OF HAPPY WITH EUROPEAN INVESTMENT,... (LAUGHS) AND THEN ONCE YOU START CHANGING THE SKIN COLOUR AND THE LANGUAGE, NZERS BECOME VERY CONCERNED ABOUT INVESTMENT. THAT IS THE POLITICAL REALITY. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT THAT THIS WAS A POLITICAL DECISION, AND I THINK THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT'S ENTITLED TO PROTEST IT. IF A NZ INVESTOR WAS SURPRISINGLY PREVENTED FROM INVESTING IN THE UNITED STATES OR CHINA, I WOULD EXPECT OUR GOVERNMENT TO MAKE DIPLOMATIC REPRESENTATIONS. ALL RIGHT, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. STICK AROUND. WE'LL BE BACK IN A MOMENT. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH 'THE NATION' AND OUR PANEL. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ONE OF THE OTHER BIG STORIES OF THE WEEK, WHICH IS THE NZERS WHO ARE IN AUSTRALIAN DETENTION CENTRES. LAW CHANGE MEANS THAT IF YOU'VE HAD A SENTENCE OF A YEAR IN JAIL, THAT THEY CAN KICK YOU OUT. WELL, THEY'RE COLLECTING UP A BUNCH OF NZERS AND TAKING THEM TO DETENTION CENTRES. THIS IS AWFUL, AND IT MAKES AUSTRALIA LOOK REALLY UGLY AND US COMPLETELY CLUELESS IN DEALING WITH AUSTRALIA. WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP? WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE CONTRIBUTIONS NZERS HAVE MADE TO AUSTRALIA? AND IT COMES ON TOP OF THIS SITUATION WHERE NZERS ARE TREATED LIKE SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS THERE WHO LIVE THERE. AND IT'S MAKING A LOT OF PEOPLE VERY GRUMPY IN NZ ABOUT THIS, AND WE WONDER, 'WHAT IS OUR GOVERNMENT DOING 'TO MAKE THE CASE AND TO LOOK AFTER NZERS IN AUSTRALIA?' BUT HANG ON. PEOPLE WOULD SAY, 'YOU'VE DONE THE CRIME, AND THIS IS THE CONSEQUENCES OF IT. 'YOU'VE DONE A CRIME WHERE` OR A SERIES, COS IT'S CUMULATIVE, A YEAR IN JAIL. 'YOU'RE NOT A GREAT CITIZEN. WE DON'T WANT YOU.' BUT THE INJUSTICE HERE OF TURFING PEOPLE OUT WHO REALLY HAVE MADE AUSTRALIA THEIR HOME, THEY'VE GOT FAMILY THERE, THEY HAVE NO CONNECTIONS TO NZ. IT JUST MAKES AUSTRALIA LOOK LIKE THE UGLY COUNTRY IT IS ON THIS AND MANY OTHER ISSUES. THEY MAY HAVE SERVED THESE OFTEN VERY SHORT SENTENCES A LONG TIME AGO AND ESTABLISHED A WHOLE NEW LIFE SINCE THEN. BUT ISN'T MURRAY MCCULLY SLEEPING ON THE JOB? I MEAN, TO ME THE SORT OF KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN OUR NEAREST NEIGHBOUR WITH A MASSIVE OVERSEAS NZ POPULATION, NOT KNOWING THAT 200 NZERS ARE BEING HELD IN DETENTION CENTRES THAT HAVE BEEN DEEMED UNLAWFUL UNDER HUMAN RIGHTS LAW, JUST BEGGARS BELIEF. IT'S AN AMAZING FAILURE OF GOVERNMENT. I MEAN, I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT` JOHN KEY'S REPEATEDLY SAID HE WASN'T SURE OF THE NUMBERS, I THINK, IN THE LAST 24 HOURS` SO MAYBE PAULA REBSTOCK SHOULD BE REVIEWING OUR CONSULAR SERVICES AND OUR MINISTERIAL OVERSIGHT OF THEM. I MEAN, IT JUST SEEMS EXTRAORDINARY TO ME. WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH AUSTRALIA, DO YOU THINK, MATTHEW? COS WE ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE THIS SPECIAL BLOOD BROTHERS, ANZAC, YOU KNOW, CLOSE RELATIONSHIP. HUGH TEMPLETON'S CER IS ONE OF THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE DEALS IN THE WORLD IN THAT IT GAVE COMPLETE FREE TRADE AND LABOUR. YOU JUST GET ON A PLANE AND GO TO AUSTRALIA AND LIVE THERE AND VICE VERSA. AND THAT'S THE PRINCIPLE OF IT. AND JOHN KEY NEEDS TO GO AND FIGHT FOR THAT PRINCIPLE, BECAUSE IT'S OF ENORMOUS VALUE TO NZ. IT KEEPS OUR WAGES UP CLOSER TO AUSTRALIA'S ` THE FACT THAT SOME OF US CAN LEAVE. I MEAN, IMAGINE IF WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT, WHAT THAT WOULD DO TO WAGE PRESSURE IN NZ. IT IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT RIGHT TO NZERS. SO HE HAS AN OBLIGATION TO FIGHT. HOWEVER, UM, I GUESS THE DOMESTIC POLITICS OF IT LOOKS LIKE HIM GOING IN TO FIGHT FOR CRIMINALS. AND SO HE'LL BE LOATHE TO DO THE RIGHT THING. I SUPPOSE THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT, THOUGH, IS, YES, SAY, THERE ARE CHILDREN, THOUGH, WHO HAVE BEEN BORN IN AUSTRALIA, THEY ARE AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS` THAT SOUNDS FAMILIAR, DOESN'T IT? WE JUST DEPORTED THREE CHILDREN BORN IN NZ WITH TWO WORKING NZ PARENTS BACK TO KIRIBATI BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE ACTUALLY DON'T FUNDAMENTALLY CARE ABOUT THAT KIND OF STUFF. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU'VE GOT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE CONSISTENCY HERE. BUT WE DON'T HAVE FREE TRADE AND LABOUR WITH KIRIBATI. I MEAN, THERE IS MEANT TO BE AN ABSOLUTE RIGHT FOR AUSTRALIANS TO LIVE IN NZ AND VICE VERSA. WELL, ONE OF THESE PEOPLE, 40 YEARS OLD, SPENT 37 OF THOSE YEARS IN AUSTRALIA WITH TEENAGE CHILD THERE, OTHERS WITH KIDS OF 8 AND 10 YEARS OLD. THE KIDS ARE AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT? I MEAN, IT'S AN APPALLING INJUSTICE, AND NZ IS NOT DOING ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN TO THE AUSTRALIANS HOW GRUMPY WE ARE ABOUT THIS. AND, ALSO, IT JUST SHOWS THE AUSTRALIANS ARE DEEPLY UNGRATEFUL AND UGLY WHEN IT COMES TO DEALING WITH` OH, YOU KEEP SAYING THAT, BUT THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE WITH IMMIGRATION, AND THEY DON'T HAVE A 2000KM MOAT AROUND THEM, DARWIN WAS BOMBED IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR, INDONESIA IS ON THEIR NORTHERN BORDER. THEY LOOK AT THE WORLD DIFFERENTLY FROM US. AND THAT'S WHY THEY TAKE A STRONGER LINE ON THESE TYPES OF ISSUES THAN WE DO. PLUS, THEY SEE THAT THERE HAS BEEN, UNTIL RECENTLY, THAT STRONG FLOW OF NZERS INTO AUSTRALIA. YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME EMPATHY FOR HOW THEY SEE THE WORLD. AUSTRALIANS HAVE BENEFITTED ENORMOUSLY FROM MIGRATION. IT IS A NATION OF MIGRANTS, YET THE WAY THEY TREAT PEOPLE COMING IN AND NZERS IS FRANKLY APPALLING. AND IT SHOWS` I LIVED IN AUSTRALIA FOR FIVE YEARS, COVERED POLITICS THERE. THEY HAVE, PARTICULARLY IN RECENT YEARS ` THE LAST 10 YEARS OR SO, PARTICULARLY THE LAST FIVE YEARS ` DEVELOPED A REALLY UGLY APPROACH TO THIS, WHICH NZ NEEDS TO CHALLENGE. IF WE'VE GOT ANY SORT OF RELATIONSHIP, WE SHOULD USE THAT POLITICAL` WE NEED TO STAND UP FOR OUR TREATY RIGHTS,... (CHUCKLES) ESSENTIALLY. LET'S MOVE ON TO 'RED PEAK'. WE CAN'T GET SHOT OF THIS FLAG DEBATE. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE WAY IT'S PLAYED OUT? THE GREENS HAD A VICTORY HERE. 'RED PEAK' IS GONNA BE ONE OF THE FLAGS THAT YOU CAN VOTE FOR. WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE GREENS AND LABOUR, THOUGH, I'M WONDERING. OH, I JUST THINK THAT'S A COMPLETE IRRELEVANCY. I MEAN, I'M REALLY HAPPY WITH THE INCLUSION OF 'RED PEAK' IN THE BALLOT, COS I CAN VOTE FOR A FLAG. I THINK THE GREENS HAD GREAT TIMING HERE. LABOUR HAD ABSOLUTELY TRIED TO ACHIEVE THE INCLUSION OF 'RED PEAK' BUT IN A DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT, BECAUSE IT'S ALIGNED ITSELF WITH THE MAJORITY, ACTUALLY, WHO DON'T WANT A FLAG CHANGE. AND, YEAH, I THINK PEOPLE PLAYED IT WELL. I THINK LABOUR HAVE BEEN UNFAIRLY BEATEN UP FOR THEIR POSITION ON IT THIS WEEK. JOHN KEY, MASTERMIND OF THE MASSIVE U-TURN THAT IS AND THE HUGE BACKDOWN, GETS AWAY WITH, 'WELL, I WAS JUST WRONG.' LET'S GO TO MATTHEW. IN 10 SECONDS, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT? I DON'T THINK ANYONE COMES OUT WITH CREDIT ` KEY, LITTLE OR THE GREENS. THEY ARE PLAYING POLITICS WITH THE FLAG. I HATE TO SAY THIS. THE ONLY PERSON WHO'S COME OUT WITH INTEGRITY IS WINSTON PETERS. HE'S AGAINST A CHANGE OF FLAG. LET'S LEAVE IT THERE. WE COULD OPEN A WHOLE OTHER CAN OF WORMS. HE'S BEEN CONSISTENT. ALL RIGHT, LET'S LEAVE IT THERE. HERE'S WHAT COULD COME UP IN THE HEADLINES NEXT WEEK. TRANS-PACIFIC PARTNERSHIP NEGOTIATORS ARE MEETING IN ATLANTA THIS WEEK FOR WHAT COULD BE THE FINAL HURDLE OF THE AGREEMENT. BUILDING CONSENT FIGURES FOR AUGUST ARE OUT ON WEDNESDAY. THE GREENPEACE ACTIVIST WHO SCALED PARLIAMENT WILL BE SENTENCED ON THURSDAY. AND JOHN KEY IS OFF TO NEW YORK, WHERE HE WILL DELIVER NZ'S STATEMENT TO THE UNITED NATIONS' GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON THURSDAY. AND WE'LL BE BRINGING YOU AN INTERVIEW FROM NEW YORK WITH JOHN KEY NEXT WEEKEND. BUT JUST BEFORE WE GO, WE'VE GOT THREE COPIES OF A RATHER GOOD BOOK TO GIVE AWAY. 'MOMENTS OF TRUTH' IS EDITED BY JON JOHANSSON AND STEPHEN LEVINE FROM VICTORIA UNIVERSITY AND BRINGS TOGETHER THE VIEWS OF SOME PARTY LEADERS, JOURNALISTS AND POLITICAL COMMENTATORS ON LAST YEAR'S ELECTION. NOW, TO ENTER THE DRAW TO WIN A COPY, GO TO FACEBOOK OR TWITTER AND LET US KNOW YOUR MOST TELLING, MOST REVEALING POLITICAL MOMENT OF TRUTH IN THE YEAR SINCE THE ELECTION. BUT THAT'S YOUR 'NATION' FIX FOR NOW. THANKS FOR YOUR COMPANY AND DO HAVE A GREAT WEEK. CAPTIONS BY ABLE. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2015