GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. TODAY ` IS IT METH MARK II? METHAMPHETAMINE IS MORE AVAILABLE THAN EVER, AND CONVICTION RATES ARE UP. WE'RE INTO WHAT I'D SAY IS OUR SECOND METHAMPHETAMINE EPIDEMIC. FOR A NUMBER OF OUR TREATMENT FACILITIES, METHAMPHETAMINE IS THE PRIMARY PRESENTATION ISSUE. HAS OVERTAKEN ALCOHOL AS THE PRIMARY DRUG OF CHOICE. THAT HASN'T EVER HAPPENED BEFORE. WE HEAR FROM AN AUSTRALIAN EXPERT WHO SAYS NZ'S APPROACH IS A SHINING EXAMPLE AND THOSE ON THE FRONT LINE HERE WHO SAY WE'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH. THEN ` THE HAGUE TELLS CHINA TO PLAY NICE IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, AND BEIJING REACTS. ANY SOVEREIGN NATION WOULD NOT ACCEPT OF ANY OUTCOME OF ANY UNJUSTIFIED RULING. WE'LL ASK CHINA'S AMBASSADOR WHAT THAT COULD MEAN FOR OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MIDDLE KINGDOM. WE REPORT FROM SOUTH SUDAN, WHERE FIVE YEARS ON FROM INDEPENDENCE, THE VIOLENCE IS FLARING UP AGAIN. AND LATER, PAUL MOCKS THE WEEK WITH A NEW FRIEND. AND OUR PANEL ` JAMIE WHYTE, LAILA HARRE AND JONATHAN MILNE. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US TODAY. WE'D LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU, SO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK VIA EMAIL, FACEBOOK, TEXT OR TWITTER. THE DETAILS ARE ON SCREEN. AND YOU CAN FOLLOW ALONG WITH OUR TWITTER PANEL ` SOCIAL COMMENTATOR BEVAN CHUANG AND COMMUNICATIONS CONSULTANT JACKSON WOOD. THEY'RE ON #NATIONTV3. THIS WEEK POLICE HAVE SHOT TWO MEN ` ONE FATALLY; ONE IS CRITICALLY INJURED. BOTH SHOOTINGS HAVE BEEN LINKED TO METHAMPHETAMINE, OR P. AND GANG LEADERS SAY THE COUNTRY IS IN THE MIDST OF A SECOND P EPIDEMIC. WE'LL TALK TO SOME NZ-BASED EXPERTS ABOUT THAT SHORTLY, BUT FIRST, MATT NOFFS IS THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE AUSTRALIAN YOUTH DRUG TREATMENT ORGANISATION THE NOFFS FOUNDATION AND AUTHOR OF A BOOK ON AUSTRALIA'S METH CRISIS, AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM SYDNEY. GOOD MORNING. YOU HAVE HELD NZ UP AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW TO DEAL WITH METH. WHY? WHAT'S GOOD ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING? I THINK THIS IS HARD FOR AN AUSTRALIAN TO SAY, BUT ARGUABLY, NZ HAS LED HUMAN RIGHTS GOING ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE VOTE FOR WOMEN IN THE LATE 1880S, AND, OF COURSE, WE FOLLOWED SOON AFTER, AND THE REST OF THE WORLD TOOK A LONG TIME TO CATCH ON WITH THAT. SO I THINK NZ HAS ALWAYS PIONEERED IN THE FIELD OF HUMAN RIGHTS, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S ANY DIFFERENT FOR DRUGS. RECENTLY, VERY RECENTLY, YOU GUYS SAW A SIGNIFICANT DROP OF METHAMPHETAMINE, AND I THINK LOOKING FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, IT'S CLEAR TO SEE YOU'VE DONE THE RIGHT THING AND WE'VE CERTAINLY TAKEN ON SOME OF THOSE APPROACHES. WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING? WELL, I THINK LOOKING AT TREATMENT OVER LAW ENFORCEMENT FIRST AND FOREMOST. YOU KNOW, EVERY COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD FOR DECADES HAS TAKEN ON THE IDEA THAT THE WAY TO GET THROUGH THIS IS TO ARREST OUR WAY OUT OF THE PROBLEM. AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS IT SIMPLY HASN'T WORKED. 'SAY NO TO DRUGS' DOESN'T WORK. IT'S A FOOL'S IDEOLOGY. SO MORE AND MORE WE SEE THAT TREATMENT DOES WORK, BEING COMPASSIONATE WORKS, BUT ACTUALLY WORKING WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AND SAYING, 'HOW CAN WE SHIFT THIS PARADIGM?' AND NZ DID THAT A FEW YEARS AGO, AND THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE, AND I THINK ROSS BELL AND THE NZ DRUG FOUNDATION WOULD AGREE, THAT'S WHY YOU'VE SEEN A SIGNIFICANT DROP OF 6% PREVALENCE TO AT SOME STAGE LAST YEAR BELOW 1%. THAT PREVALENCE CAN BE MAINTAINED AND FURTHER REDUCED BY THINKING FORWARD, LIKE YOU HAVE DONE FOR OVER 100 YEARS NOW. THERE HAS BEEN SOME SUGGESTION THIS WEEK THAT THERE'S REPORTS OF A SECOND EPIDEMIC HERE, OR A RESURGENCE. IF THAT IS THE CASE, COULD IT BE THAT THE EFFECTIVENESS OF WHAT WE ARE DOING IS PLATEAUING? LOOK, I THINK THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT NZ HAS DONE TO, I SUPPOSE, EXPERIMENT IN A FIELD THAT DESPERATELY NEEDS INNOVATION. AND CERTAINLY LOOKING AT LAWS THAT NZ HAS APPROACHED, SAY, SYNTHETIC DRUGS IN A WAY THAT OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE LOOKED TO AND SAID, 'HOW CAN WE DO THAT AS WELL?' OF COURSE, THAT HIT A FEW STUMBLING BLOCKS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU HAVE APPROACHED THINGS IN AN INNOVATIVE WAY, AND I THINK DOING THAT, CONTINUING THAT, WILL YIELD GREAT RESULTS. DOING THINGS IN A TRADITIONAL WAY, IN THE WAY THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS DONE, WON'T DO THAT, AND I THINK TO SEE THAT SIGNIFICANT DROP IN THE USE OF METHAMPHETAMINE AS YOU HAVE SEEN OVER THE PAST YEARS... IN TERMS OF THAT DROP ` SO WE ARE ABOUT FROM 2.2% DOWN TO ABOUT 0.9% ` WHAT'S REALISTIC TO AIM FOR? HOW MUCH LOWER CAN YOU GO? WELL, I THINK THAT IS INCREDIBLE. WE HAVE BEEN AT 2% FOR 10 YEARS. BUT COULD WE GO LOWER THAN THAT? IF ZERO IS NOT ACHIEVABLE, WHAT IS ACHIEVABLE? NO. I THINK... HONESTLY, I THINK YOU CAN HAVE A VISION TO REDUCE IT FURTHER THAN THAT. I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT I THINK IT'S UNREALISTIC TO GET TO 0%, AND I THINK WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING IS GOING BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND SAYING, 'HOW CAN WE AGAIN HAVE A GREAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN POLICE AND TREATMENT 'AND, OF COURSE, GOVERNMENT AND NON-GOVERNMENT ORGANISATIONS, LIKE THE NZ DRUG FOUNDATION, 'AND CONTINUE THAT INNOVATION?' IN TERMS OF INNOVATION, I REALLY WANT TO GET TO THIS WITH YOU ` THIS IDEA OF INJECTION ROOMS OR INHALATION ROOMS. INHALATION ROOMS, THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE PEOPLE CAN TAKE METH UNDER SUPERVISION. CAN YOU TELL US JUST BRIEFLY HOW THEY WORK AND WHY YOU NEED THEM? YES. SO WE WERE ONE OF THE FIRST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD TO HAVE A SAFE INJECTING FACILITY IN THE LATE '90S. ALEX WODAK AND OTHERS PIONEERED THAT, AND OUR NEW SOUTH WALES GOVERNMENT STARTED THE FIRST MEDICALLY SUPERVISED INJECTING CENTRE FOR HEROIN. SINCE THEN, THERE ARE NEARLY 100 OF THESE DRUG CONSUMPTION CENTRES AROUND THE WORLD. THEY'VE SEEN A HUGE REDUCTION IN CRIME IN THE COMMUNITY. THEY'VE OBVIOUSLY HELPED PEOPLE. THEY'VE REDUCED OVERDOSES SIGNIFICANTLY. BUT THEY'VE MADE THE COMMUNITIES SAFER. IN GERMANY, FOR INSTANCE, THEY'VE SAID THEY LOOK TO US FOR INSPIRATION. THEY'VE GOT NEARLY 30 OF THESE, AND THEY'VE ADDED INHALATION AS PART OF THAT. WHY WOULD YOU WANT PEOPLE INHALING IN A ROOM? BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE INHALING, YOU'D RATHER THEM INJECT. WHEN YOU HAVE INJECTING DRUG USE, IT'S COMMON IN A COMMUNITY, YOU ALSO HAVE THE RISK OF THE SPREAD OF HEPATITIS AND HIV. SO THE OTHER THING THAT THESE DO, A VERY IMPORTANT ASPECT, IS THAT THEY ARE A CONDUIT INTO TREATMENT. THEY CAPTURE POPULATIONS THAT HAD SO FAR BEEN UNREACHABLE. DO YOU THINK THAT WE COULD BENEFIT FROM THOSE IN NZ? ABSOLUTELY. AND I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO START A COMMUNITY CONVERSATION, TO WORK WITH COMMUNITIES WHO ARE SUFFERING IN THIS METHAMPHETAMINE CRISIS AND TO SAY, 'WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS IDEA?' OF COURSE IT STARTS AS A CONTENTIOUS ARGUMENT, BUT IT'S ONE THAT NEEDS TO BE HAD. AND, OF COURSE, AFTER A WHILE WHEN PEOPLE SEE THE EVIDENCE AND YOU VISIT PLACES LIKE GERMANY THAT ALSO HAS A CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT, YOU SEE THESE REDUCTIONS, THE COMMUNITY REALISES THEY MAKE THEM SAFER, AND, OF COURSE, YOU HELP PEOPLE INTO TREATMENT AGAIN. SO GOING BACK TO YOUR LAST QUESTION, I THINK SOMETHING LIKE THAT CONTINUES YOUR INNOVATIVE APPROACH, BUT ALSO YOU COULD SEE A FURTHER REDUCTION IN METHAMPHETAMINE USE. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING. FROM SYDNEY, MATT NOFFS. APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. NOW, IN THE STUDIO WITH ME THIS MORNING IS ROSS BELL FROM THE DRUG FOUNDATION AND DR VANESSA CALDWELL, THE CO-CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE OF ADDICTION TREATMENT. YOU HEARD WHAT MATT NOFFS HAD TO SAY THERE ` THAT WE COULD BENEFIT FROM A CONVERSATION ABOUT INHALATION AND INJECTION ROOMS. SHOULD WE HAVE THEM HERE, ROSS? I THINK WE SHOULD DO WHATEVER WE HAVE TO DO TO MAKE THE DOORS VERY WIDELY OPEN TO PEOPLE WHO ARE USING METHAMPHETAMINE TO GET THEM WHATEVER HELP. I'M NOT SURE THAT SUPERVISED INHALATION ROOMS IS QUITE WHAT WE NEED YET, BUT ALL OPTIONS SHOULD BE ON THE TABLE. WE TALKED ABOUT INNOVATION ` YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THE INNOVATIONS WE SHOULD BE DOING. ONE OF THE INNOVATIONS THAT HAPPENED RECENTLY WAS A GANG, THE MONGREL MOB, PARTNERING WITH THE SALVATION ARMY TO PROVIDE RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FOR GANG MEMBERS, AND SO THERE'S LOTS OF INNOVATIONS NZ SHOULD BE LOOKING AT. VANESSA, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON THE INHALATION ROOMS ` TAKING METH IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT LIKE THAT? LOOK, I TAKE MATT'S POINT ` YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE DESPERATE, FAMILIES ARE DESPERATE. AND WE DO KNOW WHAT WORKS. WE JUST NEED TO DO MORE OF IT, AND OPENING THE CONVERSATION TO HAVE OTHER THINGS ON THE TABLE IS ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA. SO YOU WOULDN'T RULE THAT OUT? NO, NOT AT ALL. OK, I WANT TO JUST GET AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU THINK THIS SITUATION IS LIKE HERE IN NZ AT THE MOMENT. IS P MAKING A COMEBACK, AS HAS BEEN SUGGESTED, ROSS, THIS WEEK? WE'RE HEARING DIFFERENT THINGS AROUND THE COUNTRY. SO, THE OFFICIAL STATISTICS, AS MATT TALKED ABOUT, SHOWED A HUGE REDUCTION IN METHAMPHETAMINE USE. THE LATEST STATS, THOUGH, GO TO 2013, AND WE'RE HEARING DIFFERENT NOISES NOW. HAS SOMETHING HAPPENED SINCE THEN TO NOW? OR IS IT THAT WE ARE NOW LEFT WITH A CONCENTRATED GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN USING METHAMPHETAMINE FOR A LONG TIME WHO IS GETTING THAT KIND OF CHAOS THAT YOU CAN SEE WITH METHAMPHETAMINE USE, AND IT'S THE PROBLEMS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THAT GROUP, THAT 0.9%; AND IF THAT'S THE CASE WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH THAT 0.9? BECAUSE THE THING IS WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL THE LAWS OF ECONOMICS ` THE SUPPLY IS INCREASING, PRICES ARE DOWN. PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU IT'S SUPER EASY TO GET. THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO ADD UP WITH THESE DROPPING FIGURES. DO YOU THINK THOSE FIGURES STACK UP? ON ONE LEVEL, I THINK, AS ROSS MENTIONED, THERE IS A BIT OF A GAP IN THE STATISTICS ON A TIMEFRAME, BUT I ALSO AGREE THAT WE'RE PROBABLY SEEING THE MORE VISIBLE SIGNS OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEVELOPED PROBLEMATIC USE, AND SO` YOU KNOW, WHO WERE USING MUCH EARLIER IN THE PIECE AND ARE CAPTURED WITHIN THE` SO A SLOW CLIMB IN THOSE USERS COMING TO YOUR ATTENTION? CORRECT, YES. SO IT'S THE ADDICTION TREATMENT STATS THAT ARE ACTUALLY INCREASING, AND CERTAINLY THE OTHER STATISTICS THAT ARE INCREASING ARE THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY ACCESSING TREATMENT, AND THAT'S THE KEY ISSUE THAT I THINK WE NEED TO ADDRESS. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT A BIT LATER, BUT WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? ARE THEY FUNCTIONING USERS? WHAT'S GOING ON? LOOK, THEY'RE EVERY` FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE. THIS OCCURS FOR MANY PEOPLE, FOR THOSE THAT YOU MIGHT NOT EXPECT. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY ANYBODY. CONVICTIONS ARE ALSO RISING, ROSS. I THINK 28% JUMP BETWEEN 2013-14 AND 2014-15. AND MOST OF THAT INCREASE IS MADE UP FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN CHARGED WITH A METH OFFENCE BEFORE. SO WHAT DOES THAT TELL US? I THINK THAT TELLS US A FEW THINGS. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS IT TELLS US IS ` ARE WE APPROACHING THIS FROM THE, YOU KNOW, RIGHT PERSPECTIVE? WHAT WE'VE HAD IN NZ... MATT TALKED ABOUT SUCCESSES, BUT WE HAD FAILURES BEFORE WE HAD SUCCESSES, AND WE HAD SIGNIFICANT INCREASES IN METHAMPHETAMINE USE THROUGHOUT THE LATE '90S AND THE EARLY 2000S. AND THE RESPONSE THAT GOVERNMENT MADE THERE WAS WE MADE IT A CLASS-A DRUG ` WHICH IS WHY YOU'RE BEGINNING TO SEE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, GETTING THESE KINDS OF CONVICTIONS ` RESOURCES WENT TO POLICE AND ESR AND CUSTOMS, AND WE GOT RID OF COLD AND FLU TABLETS FROM THE CHEMISTS. SO WE DID ALL OF THAT SUPPLY-CONTROL STUFF, AND IT'S ONLY BEEN IN THE LAST FEW YEARS THAT WE LOOKED AT THE DEMAND FOR METHAMPHETAMINE, SO THE NEW RESOURCES UNDER THE PRIME MINISTER'S PLAN WENT TO TREATMENT ` THEY DIDN'T GO TO COPS; THEY WENT TO TREATMENT. SO NOW IF WE'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, THESE KINDS OF CONVICTIONS ` IF WE'VE GOT PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING INTO TROUBLE, GETTING KICKED OUT OF HOME, RELATIONSHIP PROBLEMS ALL ENDING UP IN FRONT OF THE COURTS, WHAT KIND OF SUPPORT SHOULD WE BE PROVIDING THOSE PEOPLE? SHOULD WE BE CONVICTING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE? SHOULD IT BE A CLASS-A DRUG? WELL, I THINK IT'S A CLASS-A DRUG BECAUSE IT'S BEEN DEEMED AS A VERY HIGH-RISK DRUG, BUT THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT YOUR APPROACH ALWAYS HAS TO BE A CRIMINAL APPROACH. COULD WE BE USING THE INTERVENTIONS THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS HAVE WITH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM NOT TO PING THEM, NOT TO PUT THEM THROUGH THE COURTS, BUT TO PROVIDE THEM HELP INSTEAD? SO YOU WOULD WANT SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CHARGED AS SUCH NOT TO GET A CRIMINAL RECORD? DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL? WELL, WHAT OTHER HEALTH ISSUE GETS SOLVED THROUGH A CRIMINAL JUSTICE APPROACH? WE COULD USE THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AS THE DOOR THROUGH WHICH PEOPLE COME, BUT WE COULD AVOID- BECAUSE CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS WE DON'T THINK ACTUALLY HELPS ANYONE. BUT YOU COULD USE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO PROVIDE HELP TO THOSE PEOPLE. AND I THINK THE POLICE WOULD AGREE. I MEAN, THEY ARE JUST AS INTERESTED AS WE ARE IN GETTING PEOPLE HELP EARLIER TO POTENTIALLY AVOID SITUATIONS THAT OCCURRED THIS WEEK, FOR EXAMPLE. YEAH, THEY'RE CERTAINLY KEEN TO SUPPORT PEOPLE INTO GETTING HELP WHERE IT'S NEEDED. SO HAVE WE GOT THAT SPLIT RIGHT BETWEEN THE MONEY WE'RE SPENDING ON ENFORCEMENT AND THE MONEY WE'RE SPENDING ON TREATMENT? WELL, THAT'S THE INTERESTING ISSUE. WE'VE GOT A LOT OF RHETORIC. WE'VE GOT IT IN WRITING THAT THE RESOURCES WILL BE ALLOCATED ACCORDING TO THE PRIORITY AROUND PEOPLE FIRST AND GETTING HELP AND A HEATH-FOCUSED APPROACH, BUT ACTUALLY, THE MONEY DOESN'T FOLLOW THAT. THE MONEY IS, YOU KNOW, AN 80-20 SPLIT BETWEEN POLICE AND CORRECTIONS, WITH 80% SPEND AND 20% TREATMENT. SO HOW MUCH, IF YOU COULD PUT A DOLLAR FIGURE ON IT? YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE BASICALLY QUEUING UP FOR REHAB SPOTS. HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU NEED TO FIX THAT? LOOK, I THINK JUST A REBALANCING OF THAT SO THAT WE ACTUALLY START TO TALK MORE PRODUCTIVELY ABOUT WHAT IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO TAKE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. WE KNOW- SO 50-50 SPLIT BETWEEN WHERE THE MONEY GOES, BETWEEN ENFORCEMENT AND TREATMENT? I THINK WE COULD HAVE A BOLDER VISION AROUND THIS. A BALANCED APPROACH DOESN'T NECESSARILY NEED TO MEAN AN EVEN DIVISION OF MONEY. ONE OF THE VISIONS WE COULD HAVE IS ZERO WAITING LISTS. I THINK IT'S APPALLING IN THIS COUNTRY THAT THERE ARE` WHEN SOMEONE PUTS THEIR HAND UP FOR HELP AND THEN THEY'RE TOLD 'WE CAN'T SEE YOU FOR A FEW MONTHS', WELL, THAT'S A RIDICULOUS SITUATION, SO WE SHOULD AIM FOR ZERO WAITING LISTS. AND ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS I THINK WE'RE SEEING WITH THE CURRENT SITUATION AROUND METH IS PROBLEMS IN THE PROVINCES, AND THOSE ARE PARTS OF THE COUNTRY THAT DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE TREATMENT AVAILABILITY. DO WE HAVE THE RESOURCES FOR ZERO WAITING LISTS, THE EXPERTISE, THE PROFESSIONALS? WELL, WHAT'S STOPPING-? WE COULD. WE SPEND MORE MONEY RIGHT NOW ON DRUG-LAW ENFORCEMENT THAN WE DO ON ALL ALCOHOL AND DRUG TREATMENT COMBINED. WE SPEND ABOUT $100 MILLION ON DRUG TREATMENT. WHY CAN'T WE AIM FOR DOUBLING OF THAT? IT'S NOT, IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS, A LOT OF MONEY. AND WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SPENDING ON BRICKS AND MORTAR ON BUILDINGS. THIS IS ABOUT ACTUAL SERVICE DELIVERY IN MANY, MANY DIFFERENT FORMS. WE KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT A LARGE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEMATIC METHAMPHETAMINE USE WILL ACTUALLY GET WELL BY THEMSELVES WITHOUT ANY PROFESSIONAL INTERVENTION, AND WE'VE GOT RESOURCES TO SUPPORT THAT SO THAT IT'S ACTUALLY SUCCESSFUL. WHEN THE PRIME MINISTER LAUNCHED THIS ACTION PLAN, HE SAID, 'WE'LL USE EVERY TOOL WE HAVE AVAILABLE,' BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE NOT GETTING THE MONEY. IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED UNDER THE LIFE OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S PLAN, THAT'S WHEN USE WENT FROM THE 2.2 AND IT MORE THAN HALVED. I THINK THAT'S A GREAT SUCCESS. SO WHAT NOW? LET'S LEARN FROM THAT. IF THAT SUCCESS WAS LARGELY THROUGH TACKLING THE DEMAND FOR DRUGS, THEN LET'S KEEP DOING THAT. IF IT MEANS SHIFTING RESOURCES AWAY FROM LAW-ENFORCEMENT AND SUPPLY-CONTROL MEASURES INTO REDUCING DEMAND, THEN WE SHOULD DO THAT. ALL RIGHT. THANKS, BOTH OF YOU, FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING. MUCH APPRECIATED. WELL, LATER IN THE PROGRAMME ` AS SOUTH SUDAN MARKS ITS FIFTH-YEAR ANNIVERSARY, WE TAKE A LOOK AT THE COUNTRY'S FUTURE. AND AFTER THE BREAK, BEIJING HITS BACK AT AN INTERNATIONAL RULING ON THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. WE'LL TALK TO THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR ABOUT WHAT IT ALL MEANS. RIVAL COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN FIGHTING OVER TERRITORY IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA FOR CENTURIES, AND THE TENSION HAS ONLY INCREASED IN RECENT YEARS. NOW, CHINA HAS CLAIMED HISTORIC RIGHTS OVER MOST OF THE SEA, BUT THIS WEEK, A RULING FROM AN INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL IN THE HAGUE CAME DOWN OVERWHELMINGLY AGAINST CHINA AND IN FAVOUR OF THE PHILIPPINES. I SPOKE TO THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR, WANG LUTONG, AND ASKED HIM WHAT CHINA THINKS OF THE DECISION. THIS TUESDAY THE 12TH OF JULY IS A BLACK DAY FOR THE HAGUE. THE RULING JUST DISHONOURS THE INTERNATIONAL LAW AND UNCLOS CONVENTION. CHINA DON'T ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF THIS RULING BECAUSE THE ESSENCE OF THIS ARBITRATION IS VERY MUCH ABOUT TERRITORIAL SOVEREIGNTY AND MARITIME DELIMITATION. THE CONVENTION HAS NO JURISDICTION OVER SOVEREIGNTY MATTERS AND ABOUT DELIMITATION. WE'VE MADE AN EXCLUSIVE STATEMENT IN 2006, AS OTHER 30 COUNTRIES HAVE DONE IN THE PAST, SAYING THAT WE WOULD NEVER TAKE PART IN THIRD PARTY ARBITRATIONS. AND BESIDES, THE ARBITRATION HAS NO RIGHT TO HANDLE THIS ISSUE WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF CHINA, AND THE PHILIPPINES ALSO BREAK` MR AMBASSADOR, THIS IS A UN TRIBUNAL. HOW CAN YOU NOT ACCEPT THIS? CHINA IS A PERMANENT MEMBER OF THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL. THIS IS AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED ORGANISATION. I THINK ANY SOVEREIGN NATION WOULD NOT ACCEPT OF ANY OUTCOME OF ANY UNJUSTIFIED RULING. WILL YOU ABIDE BY THIS DECISION? WE WOULD NOT ABIDE ANY DECISION. THERE IS NO QUESTION OF IMPLEMENTING OR EXECUTING THE OUTCOME OF THIS RULING. LET ME REPEAT, WE DON'T ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF THIS RULING. WE DON'T ACCEPT ANY CLAIMS AND ACTION BASED ON SUCH UNJUSTIFIED RULING AND CHINA'S CLAIM OF SOVEREIGNTY AND MARITIME RIGHTS AND INTERESTS OVER THIS REGION WON'T BE AFFECTED. SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT REJECTING THIS DECISION IS GOING TO DO TO CHINA'S INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION? WELL, AS I SAID, NO SOVEREIGN COUNTRY WOULD ACCEPT ANY OUTCOME OF UNJUSTIFIED RULING. THE PROCESS` CHINA RESPECTS INTERNATIONAL LAW AND ORDER. THE PROCESS OF CHINA'S INTEGRATION WITH THE WORLD, WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE PROCESS OF CHINA'S OPENING TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD, HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE PROCESS OF WE RESPECTING INTERNATIONAL LAW AND ORDER. WE RESPECT INTERNATIONAL LAW; THAT'S WHY WE'VE SOLVED OUR BORDER DISPUTES WITH 12 NEIGHBOURS. IN TERMS OF CHINA'S REPUTATION, MR AMBASSADOR, THE AUSTRALIAN FOREIGN MINISTER JULIE BISHOP SAID, 'CHINA WILL FACE STRONG REPUTATIONAL COSTS IF IT PROCEEDS WITH SERIOUS INTERNATIONAL TRANSGRESSION.' IT SOUNDS LIKE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY BELIEVES THAT THIS WILL COST CHINA ` NOT ABIDING BY THIS RULING. THIS RULING IS ABSOLUTELY GROUNDLESS AND BASELESS. I THINK CHINA IS UPHOLDING THE CREDIBILITY AND AUTHORITY OF THE CONVENTION BY SAYING NO TO THIS RULING, WHICH IS UNJUSTIFIED. THE THING IS OUR DEFENCE MINISTER, GERRY BROWNLEE, HAS SAID THAT CHINA SHOULD ACCEPT THIS DECISION. SO HOW WILL THAT AFFECT OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA, OUR TRADING RELATIONSHIP, WHEN OUR GOVERNMENT FEELS THAT THIS DECISION SHOULD BE ABIDED BY? WELL, THE SOUTH CHINA SEA IS NOT AN ISSUE BETWEEN CHINA AND NZ, AND WE VALUE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH NZ. SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE OF OPINION BETWEEN NZ AND CHINA OVER THIS DECISION? WHAT IMPACT IS THAT GOING TO HAVE ON OUR RELATIONSHIP? I DON'T THINK THIS RELATIONSHIP, THIS GREATER RELATIONSHIP, WILL BE AFFECTED BY THIS ISSUE. THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE BETWEEN CHINA AND NZ, AND I THINK IT'S IN THE MUTUAL INTEREST OF CHINA AND NZ TO MAINTAIN PEACE AND STABILITY IN THIS REGION. BUT IT IS A DIRECT DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES ON WHERE THEY STAND HERE, AND, IN FACT, WHEN OUR PRIME MINISTER VISITED CHINA RECENTLY, THE CHINESE MEDIA WARNED HIM OFF MENTIONING THE SOUTH CHINA SEA DISPUTE. SO CLEARLY THERE'S A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION THERE. CHINA AND NZ CAN DISAGREE AND DISAGREE ON SOME OF THE ISSUES, BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY AFFECT OUR GOOD RELATIONSHIP. OK. WELL, CHINA HAS BEEN BUILDING ON THESE ATOLLS. SO, JUST TO BE CLEAR, WHAT STRUCTURES HAVE YOU PUT ON THESE ATOLLS? WHAT HAVE YOU BUILT THERE? THE RECLAMATION OF LAND, YOU'VE MENTIONED. YES, THERE WERE PHOTOGRAPHIC ANALYSIS EARLIER IN THE YEAR, SAID THERE WAS A MISSILE LAUNCHER, RUNWAYS AND MILITARY INSTALLATIONS. SO WHAT SPECIFICALLY HAS CHINA BUILT THERE? I THINK IT'S OUR OWN RIGHT TO DO ANYTHING WITHIN OUR OWN BACKYARD. WE ARE NOT DOING THAT THING IN OTHER COUNTRY'S BACKYARD. BUT, MR AMBASSADOR, EVEN IF YOU CONSIDER IT YOUR OWN RIGHT, I'M JUST WANTING TO BE CLEAR, WHAT HAVE YOU PLACED ON THOSE STRUCTURES? WHAT HAS CHINA BUILT THERE? NOW, CHINA COULD BE THE LAST COUNTRY TO DO SOMETHING ON ISLANDS. PHILIPPINES IS THE FIRST COUNTRY TO BUILD AIRCRAFT IN THOSE ISLANDS, IN THOSE REGIONS, AND, HAVING SAID THAT, SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT YOUR RECLAMATION IS MUCH BIGGER THAN OTHERS. BUT THE QUESTION IS NOT JUST ABOUT BEING BIG OR SMALL; IT'S ABOUT BEING RIGHT AND WRONG. I COULD ADMIT THAT THE MILITARY PURPOSES ON THE RECLAMATION OF THE LAND, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT TO PROTECT OUR OWN INTEREST AND RIGHTS. OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN STATIONING TROOPS, TANKS AND WEAPONS ON ISLANDS AND SOME OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN KEEP SENDING WAR SHIPS AND WAR PLANES TO THIS REGION. WE'VE GOT TO PROTECT OUR OWN RIGHTS AND INTERESTS, BUT THERE ARE ALSO OTHER CIVILIAN USES FOR THE RECLAMATION OF THE ISLANDS, SUCH AS LIGHTHOUSES. WE'VE ESTABLISHED FOUR, ALTOGETHER, FOUR LIGHTHOUSES, THE MAINTENANCE CENTRE, RESCUE CENTRE. BUT, MR AMBASSADOR, YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED MILITARY INSTALLATIONS THERE. THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. WE'VE STATIONED SOME DEFENCE WEAPONS ON THESE ISLANDS, AND THAT'S FOR THE DEFENCE. THAT'S DEFENSIVE IN NATURE. THAT'S TO PROTECT OUR OWN INTERESTS AND RIGHTS. OK, WELL, MR MCCULLY, OUR FOREIGN MINISTER, HAS SAID THAT CHINA SHOULD DEMILITARISE THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. WILL YOU DO THAT AS A SIGN OF GOODWILL, GIVEN THE TRIBUNAL'S DECISION? IT'S VERY IN THE INTEREST OF CHINA TO MAINTAIN PEACE AND STABILITY. WE ARE DEFENDING OURSELVES TO PROTECT OUR OWN INTERESTS AND RIGHTS. WHY DON'T YOU SPEAK TO SOME OTHER COUNTRIES, LIKE AMERICANS, WHO KEEP SENDING WAR SHIPS AND WAR PLANES TO THIS REGION? I THINK THIS PLACE, THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, COULD BE MUCH CALMER AND PEACEFUL WITHOUT THE PRESENCE OF MILITARY WAR SHIPS AND WAR PLANES. SO, MR AMBASSADOR, THE MILITARY INSTALLATIONS THAT YOU SAY CHINA HAS PLACED ON THOSE ATOLLS, WOULD YOU REMOVE THEM, DISMANTLE THEM, IN LIGHT OF THE DECISION? WE WILL DO ANYTHING WE CAN TO PROTECT OUR OWN INTERESTS AND RIGHTS IN THIS REGION. SO, WHAT ARE YOUR PLANS FOR THE SOUTH CHINA SEA NOW? I THINK THE POLITICAL FARCE HAS ALREADY COME TO AN END, AND IT IS RIGHT FOR ALL OF THE PARTIES AND COUNTRIES CONCERNED TO MOVE THIS ISSUE BACK TO THE CORRECT TRACK. CHINA'S COMMITTED TO PEACEFUL RESETTLEMENT OF THIS ISSUE, AND BEFORE WE REACH THE TARGET OF DELIMITATIONS, BEFORE WE REACH THAT GOAL, WE WOULD LIKE TO CALL UPON ALL THE PARTIES CONCERNED TO EXERCISE RESTRAINT, TO MANAGE THE DIFFERENCES WISELY, AND TO SEEK JOINT DEVELOPMENT IN THIS REGION. MR AMBASSADOR, IN THE SPIRIT OF WORKING TOGETHER IN THAT AREA, THEN, I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU IF THE PHILIPPINES OR VIETNAM WANT TO FISH FREELY WITHIN THAT ARBITRARY BOUNDARY THAT CHINA HAS CREATED ` AND THAT THE TRIBUNAL HAS RULED IS ILLEGAL ` WHAT WOULD HAPPEN THEN, IF THEIR BOATS MOVE INTO THAT AREA? WHAT WILL HAPPEN? THE NEIGHBOUR COUNTRIES SHOULDN'T DO ANYTHING TO ENCROACH OR INFRINGE UPON OUR SOVEREIGNTIES. WE OPPOSE THAT. OK. WELL, CHINA HAS SAID THAT IT HOPES THAT COUNTRIES DON'T USE THIS TRIBUNAL'S RULING TO THREATEN CHINA. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, AND WHAT WOULD YOU CONSIDER A THREAT? WE DON'T ACCEPT ANY CLAIMS OR ACTION BASED ON THIS RULING, AND THIS RULING WON'T HAVE ANY EFFECT ON OUR CLAIMS OF SOVEREIGNTY AND MARITIME RIGHTS AND INTERESTS OVER THIS REGION. BUT CHINA HAS SAID THAT IT'S CONCERNED THAT COUNTRIES WILL USE THIS RULING TO THREATEN CHINA. WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT? WHAT THREAT DO YOU ANTICIPATE? I WON'T MAKE ANY PREJUDGEMENT ON THAT. BUT I CALL UPON ALL THE PARTIES CONCERNED TO EXERCISE RESTRAINT AND MANAGE ALL THESE DIFFERENCES WISELY. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A COUPLE OF OTHER ISSUES IN THE TIME THAT WE HAVE LEFT. NZER PETER GARDNER HAS BEEN IN JAIL IN CHINA SINCE BEING ARRESTED WITH 30 KILOS OF METH IN 2014. NOW, JOHN KEY ASKED PRESIDENT XI JINPING TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THIS COUNTRY'S STRONG OPPOSITION TO THE DEATH PENALTY. HOW MUCH WEIGHT WILL THAT CARRY WHEN A PUNISHMENT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED FOR THIS MAN? I THINK OUR PEOPLE IN CHINA ARE STILL WORKING ON THIS CASE, AND CHINA IS A COUNTRY OF THE RULE OF LAW. WE WILL DO ANYTHING ACCORDING TO THE RULE OF LAW. SO CAN YOU RULE OUT A NZER BEING KILLED BY A FIRING SQUAD IN CHINA? YOU MEAN THE DEATH PENALTY? YES, MR AMBASSADOR. WE HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY IN CHINA, AND THAT'S BEEN QUITE EFFECTIVE IN FIGHTING THE CRIMES IN CHINA. CHINA IS A COUNTRY OF SERIOUS CRIMES. WE'VE GOT QUITE A NUMBER OF VERY SERIOUS CRIMES, AND THOSE DEATH PENALTY MEASURES, THEY'RE EFFECTIVE FIGHTING THE CRIMES. BUT WE'VE BEEN VERY CAUTIOUS ABOUT CARRYING OUT DEATH PENALTY. THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THE LOCAL COURT, COULDN'T DECIDE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY. THEY'VE GOT TO SUBMIT THIS TO WHAT COULD BE THE SUPREME COURT FOR THE FINAL DECISION. THERE ARE VERY STRICT PROCEDURES TO GO THROUGH FOR THE FINAL DECISIONS. WE ARE DOING THAT ACCORDING TO LAW. BUT YOU CANNOT RULE OUT, SIR, THAT A NZER MAY FACE THE DEATH PENALTY IN CHINA? I THINK OUR TWO PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING ON THAT, AND I DON'T THINK THAT I'M IN A POSITION TO DO ANYTHING BEFORE THEM. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING, MR AMBASSADOR. APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU, LISA. AND JUST TO BE CLEAR, PETER GARDNER IS STILL AWAITING A VERDICT IN HIS CASE AND HAS ALWAYS MAINTAINED HIS INNOCENCE. NOW, AFTER THE BREAK ` HOW NZERS ARE HELPING OUT IN THE NEWEST NATION IN THE WORLD ` SOUTH SUDAN. AND LATER ON IN THE PROGRAMME, OUR PANEL, JONATHAN MILNE, LAILA HARRE AND JAMIE WHYTE. BUT FIRST, JEREMY CORBETT HAS A NEW BUDDY. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` WHO IS THIS PERSON BESIDE ME? HELLO THERE. PAUL EGO'S GONE ON HOLIDAY, SO THEY'VE CHOSEN ME TO REPLACE HIM. TO BE HONEST, A BIT LIKE CHOOSING THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER ` ZERO OTHER OPTIONS. THAT'S HURTFUL. DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THE BIG QUESTIONS THIS WEEK, JESSIE? I DO, ACTUALLY ` HAS LABOUR GOT NATIONAL ON THE BACK FOOT WITH ITS HOUSING NZ POLICY? WELL, NOT REALLY, COS BOTH THEIR POLICIES ARE IDENTICAL. IT'S WHAT YOU CALL A BIPARTISAN ACCORD. WHAT'S THAT? IT'S LIKE TURNING UP TO A PARTY BASICALLY WEARING THE SAME FROCK AS SOMEONE ELSE. IT WAS ONE TIME. FOR GOD'S SAKE, LET IT GO. AND SPEAKING OF HOUSING, WHEN EXACTLY DID THE GOVERNMENT DECIDE HOUSING NZ COULD KEEP ITS DIVIDENDS? AGES AGO. I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING IT IN THE BUDGET. YEAH, BUT THE BUDGET ISN'T OFFICIAL UNTIL IT'S RATIFIED. BY WHO? BY TWITTER. LAST QUESTION ` DID HELEN CLARK DO WELL ENOUGH IN THE DEBATE TO GET THE TOP JOB AT THE UN? I GUESS THAT DEPENDS ON WHETHER SHE IMPRESSED THE FIVE PERMANENT MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL ` LOUIS, HARRY AND ZANE. WHAT ARE YOU, AN IDIOT? WHAT? ZANE'S DOING HIS OWN THING NOW. IS HE? JOHN KEY'S DOING HIS BIT AS WELL. HAVE YOU HEARD THE SLOGAN? VOTE FOR HELEN... NICE. ...OR CHESTER BORROWS WILL RUN YOU OVER. SUBTLE. I LIKE IT. SO, HOW'S THE CONCERT PROGRAMME GOING? IT'S RNZ NATIONAL. (GASPS) GOOD FOR YOU. I LOVE SPORTS RADIO. WELCOME BACK. SOUTH SUDAN IS THE NEWEST NATION ON EARTH. THIS WEEK IT'S MARKED ITS 5TH ANNIVERSARY OF INDEPENDENCE. BUT AS IT DID, FRESH VIOLENCE ERUPTED. FIGHTING BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND ANTI-GOVERNMENT FORCES BROKE OUT IN THE CAPITAL, JUBA, CLAIMING AT LEAST 270 LIVES. AMONG THE DEAD WERE TWO UNITED NATIONS PEACEKEEPERS FROM CHINA. NOW, MICHAEL MORRAH, WAS IN SOUTH SUDAN RECENTLY WITH WORLD VISION. HE TRAVELLED TO THE TOWN OF MALAKAL IN THE COUNTRY'S NORTH, AND FOUND, DESPITE CHALLENGES FACING AID WORKERS, THERE'S STILL HOPE FOR LASTING PEACE. DWAIN HINDRICKSON HAS WORKED IN HIS FAIR SHARE OF HOSTILE ENVIRONMENTS. ORIGINALLY FROM THE BAY OF ISLANDS, HE'S AN ARMY RESERVIST FOR THE NZ DEFENCE FORCE AND A SECURITY SPECIALIST FOR WORLD VISION. WE'RE HEADED UP THE NILE FROM THE WAR-TORN CITY OF MALAKAL IN THE NORTH OF THE COUNTRY. THE PLAN ` TO SEE WHAT LIFE IS LIKE IN SOME OF THE CAMPS NOW HOME TO THE DISPLACED PEOPLE OF SOUTH SUDAN. ARE THEY OFFERING SANCTUARY? AND AMIDST ONGOING WAR, WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THE YOUNGEST CITIZENS IN THIS, THE WORLD'S YOUNGEST COUNTRY. IS THIS A FAIRLY HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT THAT WE'RE IN AT THE MOMENT? IT'S A RELATIVELY HIGH-RISK ENVIRONMENT. FROM TIME TO TIME, THERE CAN BE SECURITY FLARE UPS THAT CAN PLACE CIVILIANS AND SIGNIFICANT RISK AND ALSO THE PROGRAMMING THAT WE DO. HAVE YOU YOURSELF EXPERIENCED THOSE FLARE UPS, PERSONALLY? YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY, YES. THERE WAS A TIME WHEN I PREVIOUSLY DEPLOYED HERE, WHERE WE WERE TRAVELLING DOWN THE NILE AND WE WERE SHOT AT. SOME ROUNDS WERE FIRED OVER OUR HEAD. DWAIN MANAGED TO DEFUSE THE SITUATION BY STOPPING THE BOAT AND TALKING TO THOSE WHO FIRED THE SHOTS. GUN BATTLES ARE NOT UNUSUAL IN THIS OIL-RICH REGION, ESPECIALLY ALONG THE NILE. THERE'S A LOT OF RESTRICTIONS ON MOVEMENTS ALONG THIS RIVER, AND TODAY WE'RE ONLY ABLE TO TRAVEL SO FAR DOWN THE RIVER BEFORE WE'LL HAVE TO CONDUCT THE REST OF OUR MOVEMENT VIA ROAD. WHY IS THAT? BECAUSE THE NILE IS THAT MAIN MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE AND OF GOODS, IT'S ALSO THE MAIN MOVEMENT OF ARMED PERSONNEL AS WELL. FIGHTERS FROM BOTH SIDES IN THIS CONFLICT OFTEN STATION THEMSELVES ALONG THE RIVERBANKS. BEING AN AID WORKER HERE REQUIRES PATIENCE, PERSEVERANCE AND CONSTANT NEGOTIATIONS, EVEN WE HAD TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS. CAMERA DOWN. BOTH: CAMERA DOWN. THERE'S SIGNIFICANT RISKS FOR HUMANITARIAN WORKERS. THE RISKS ARE PROBABLY GREATEST FOR THE STAFF WHO ARE LIVING HERE ON A DAILY BASIS. AS IF TO HIGHLIGHT THAT POINT, AS WE DISEMBARK IN THE VILLAGE OF WAU SHILLUK, WE'RE INFORMED OF A INCIDENT. WE'VE JUST FOUND OUT THAT WHEN WE WERE COMING UP THE RIVER, THERE WAS ANOTHER TEAM OF AID WORKERS WHO WERE 10 MINUTES BEHIND US, AND THEY HAD SHOTS FIRED AT THEM FROM THE BANKSIDE. 10 SHOTS WERE FIRED. WE DON'T KNOW YET IF THEY WERE JUST WARNING SHOTS, BUT THIS JUST GOES TO SHOW THE FRAGILE CONTEXT WITHIN WHICH WE'RE WORKING IN AT THE MOMENT. AS WELL AS THIS WEEK'S KILLING OF TWO CHINESE UN PEACEKEEPERS, THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL OTHER CASES OF HUMANITARIANS BEING TARGETED. LAST YEAR, THREE AID WORKERS FROM THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME DISAPPEARED WHILE DRIVING IN THE UPPER NILE REGION ON A FOOD DROP. THEY HAVEN'T BEEN SEEN SINCE. SOUTH SUDAN GAINED INDEPENDENCE IN 2011 AFTER A DECADES-LONG POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS WAR WITH THE MAINLY MUSLIM NORTH, THE IMPOVERISHED SOUTH FINALLY GOT AUTONOMY. BUT THE CELEBRATIONS DIDN'T LAST LONG. GUNFIRE A POWER STRUGGLE IN 2013 BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT, SALVA KIRR ` AN ETHNIC DINKA ` AND HIS DEPUTY, RIEK MACHAR FROM THE NUER TRIBAL GROUP, IGNITED FRESH FIGHTING. MACHAR WAS ACCUSED OF AN ATTEMPTED COUP ` INTERTRIBAL FIGHTING ERUPTED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. TENS OF THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN KILLED. 1.6 MILLION HAVE BEEN INTERNALLY DISPLACED. 185,000 ARE NOW LIVING INSIDE 'POCS' OR UN PROTECTION OF CIVILIAN CAMPS AROUND THE COUNTRY. WORLD VISION'S INOS MUGABE HAD TO TAKE SHELTER WHEN THE 'POC' IN MALAKAL CAME UNDER ATTACK IN FEBRUARY. FROM FIGHTING WITH STICKS, PEOPLE STARTED FIGHTING WITH MACHINE GUNS AND THEN SOME AK47 ROUNDS. WE SAW SOME HUGE CLOUD OF SMOKE COME OUT OF THE SECTOR ONE POC. TENTS WERE BURNING PEOPLE WERE SCREAMING. IT'S NO SURPRISE THEN THAT THE COMPOUND WHERE HE AND HIS COLLEAGUES STAY, AND WHERE WE STAYED, IS HEAVILY GUARDED. THIS IS THE BUNKER FOR THE MILITARY COMPOUND. WE'VE BEEN TOLD THAT IF THERE IS A SHOOTOUT, WE SHOULD BE COMING HERE. AND IN FEBRUARY, THERE WAS AN ATTACK ON THE CAMP JUST DOWN THE ROAD. MORE THAN 20 PEOPLE WERE SHOT DEAD, AND DURING THAT TIME PEOPLE WORKING FOR AGENCIES LIKE WORLD VISION CAME HERE TO SHELTER FROM THE CROSSFIRE AND RPG ATTACKS, SO IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT TO WORK IN, BUT TO BE ABLE TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO DO THE GOOD WORK, THEY NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE ADEQUATE PROTECTION FOR THEMSELVES. SEVERAL AID GROUPS PROVIDES CHILD-FRIENDLY AREAS AROUND THE COUNTRY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO ESCAPE THE VIOLENCE ` TO DANCE, SING AND FOR A MOMENT FORGET ABOUT THE DAILY STRUGGLES. AS YOU CAN SEE, THIS PLACE IS VERY IMPORTANT. THESE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN TRAUMATISED BUY THE WAR. SO WE BRING THEM HERE SO THAT THEY CAN COME AND MEET AND TALK AND LEARN AND PLAY, AND THEY CAN JUST BE CHILDREN. CHILDREN SING SUCH AREAS SHOULD BE A SANCTUARY FROM THE CONFLICT. BUT AT PROGRAMME AREA IN THE UN-PROTECTED CAMP AT MALAKAL, WORLD VISION'S SCHOOL WAS BURNED TO THE GROUND DURING THE FEBRUARY ATTACK. EVEN THE CHILDREN HERE HAVE WITNESSED HORRIFIC ATROCITIES. THEY SAW PEOPLE DEAD IN THEIR STREETS. EVEN WHERE WE ARE INSIDE THIS COMPOUND OF WORLD VISION'S IN FEBRUARY, SOMEBODY WAS SHOT DEAD HERE. AT THE SCHOOL? AT THE SCHOOL IN THE NIGHT. DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS ARE AMONGST THOSE CRITICAL OF THE UNITED NATIONS FOR TAKING TOO LONG TO RESPOND TO THE ATTACK, WHERE ARMED MEN BROKE THROUGH THE CAMP'S SECURE PERIMETER, BURNING SHELTERS AND KILLING AT LEAST 25 CIVILIANS. IT WAS CLEAR THAT MANY CHILDREN WE MET ALONG THE WAY WHO LIVED HERE HAD GROWN UP SURROUNDED BY GUNS AND THE THREAT OF WAR. AND SADLY, THOUSANDS END UP JOINING THE FIGHT. UNICEF'S ABRAHAM KUR ACHIEK IS A FORMER CHILD SOLIDER. IN MOST CASES, IT IS VERY EASY TO MANIPULATE CHILDREN. SO THE REBEL GROUPS FIND CHILDREN THAT ARE VERY ENERGETIC, THEY CAN FIGHT WELL, THEY CAN OBEY COMMANDS AND THEY ARE EASILY BRAINWASHED. ABRAHAM WAS FORCEFULLY RECRUITED AS A 12-YEAR-OLD IN 1987. REBELS TOOK HIM FROM HIS HOME AT GUNPOINT. HE NEVER SAW HIS PARENTS AGAIN. THEY'RE BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN KILLED. WAS THAT TRAUMATIC FOR YOU, THAT PERIOD? YES, EXACTLY, IT WAS TRAUMATIC. IT TOOK ME MORE THAN 20 YEARS TO OVERCOME THAT TRAUMA. WERE YOU ASKED TO FIRE GUNS? WERE YOU ASKED TO KILL PEOPLE? THOSE ARE SOME OF THE STORIES THAT WE DON'T SHARE AS FORMER CHILD SOLDIERS. HE'S RELUCTANT TO GO BACK TO THOSE DARK DAYS, TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HE WAS ASKED TO DO, EXCEPT TO TELL ME THAT HE FOLLOWED ORDERS. OF COURSE, YOU DON'T THINK; YOU FOLLOW WHAT YOU ARE TOLD TO DO. THERE ARE STILL AROUND 16,000 CHILD COMBATANTS IN SOUTH SUDAN. ABRAHAM NOW HELPS PROTECT THEM. HE GETS THEM OUT OF THE BATTLE AND INTO SCHOOL. THE YOUNG CHILDREN NEED TO BE PROTECTED, THEY NEED TO BE SUPPORTED TO DEVELOP, TO GO TO SCHOOL, SO THAT IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS WE NEED TO HAVE ENGINEERS, WE NEED TO HAVE GOOD HEALTH WORKERS, WE NEED TO HAVE LAWYERS. WE NEED TO HAVE ADMINISTRATORS. WE CAN NOT HAVE THEM IF CHILDREN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL. SOME CHILDREN GO TO SCHOOLS SET UP INSIDE UN PROTECTED CAMPS. BUT THEY STILL LIVE IN FEAR. LIFE BEHIND THE RAZOR WIRE IS NO PLACE TO GROW UP. THE UN CAMP IN JUBA IS HOME TO MORE THAN 21,000 MAINLY FROM THE NUER TRIBE. IT'S WHERE WE MET 20-YEAR-OLD DANIEL KHOR, WHO'S BEEN LIVING HERE SINCE VIOLENCE BROKE OUT IN 2013. SO 2000, THEY WERE KILLING KIDS, WOMEN AND MEN. THAT'S WHY WE ARE HERE. DID YOU LOSE BROTHERS YOURSELF? YEAH, WE LOSE BROTHERS. HOW MANY BROTHERS DID YOU LOSE? WE LOSE SOMETHING LIKE SEVEN. THEY WERE SHOT? YEAH. SO THIS IS YOUR HOME? THAT'S MY HOME. CAN WE COME IN? LET'S GO IN. A CLUSTER OF CANVAS TENTS IS WHERE DANIEL AND HIS FAMILY LIVE. HE HOPES ONE DAY HE'LL BE ABLE TO LEAVE ALL THIS AND LIVE FREELY IN HIS OWN COUNTRY. DESPITE WHAT'S TAKEN PLACE, HE SAYS HE FORGIVES. I LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE KILLING US AS MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS. IN FACT, BECAUSE WHAT I WANT IS PEACE. AND WHAT I WANT TO PROMOTE OUR COUNTRY UPWARDS, NOT BACKWARDS. PEACE, EQUALITY, AN END TO THE HATRED AND TRIBALISM ` IT'S WHAT EVERYONE HERE WANTS. I JUST WANT PEACE TO COME TO SOUTH SUDAN SO THAT OUR COUNTRY WILL BE OK. THAT'S MY DREAM. A PEACE DEAL HAS BEEN SIGNED BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND HIS DEPUTY. BOTH SIDES HAVE PLEDGED TO RESOLVE THEIR DIFFERENCES AND END THE BRUTALITY, WHICH ACCORDING TO THE UN HAS INCLUDED WIDESPREAD RAPE AND MURDER OF CIVILIANS. THE PRESIDENT'S EVEN APOLOGISED FOR THE SUFFERING HE AND HIS COUNTERPART HAVE CREATED. SO THERE'S AN ACCEPTANCE THAT WRONGDOING HAS BEEN COMMITTED BY BOTH SIDES? THEY ACCEPT THAT. YES, EVEN THEY APOLOGISE TO THE CITIZEN OVER WHAT HAS HAPPENED. DO YOU HOPE THIS SITUATION CAN BE RESOLVED, WILLIAM? I HOPE SO. YES, I HOPE THE SITUATION WILL RETURN TO NORMAL. BUT GIVEN THE ENGRAINED CULTURE OF FIGHTING AND THE PROLONGED SUFFERING, DO YOU THINK THAT SOUTH SUDAN CAN GET THROUGH THIS PERIOD OF INSTABILITY AND BECOME A FUNCTIONING NATION AGAIN? YEAH, I'M AN OPTIMIST AND I BELIEVE THAT THE RESILIENCE OF THE SOUTH SUDANESE PEOPLE WILL ALLOW THEM TO DO THAT. IT WILL TAKE A LONG TIME. YOU KNOW, LET'S NOT KID OURSELVES. WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE CHANGE OVERNIGHT. BUT WITH A CONCERTED EFFORT FROM THE PEOPLE HERE AND SUPPORT FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, I THINK THINGS CAN BE ACHIEVED. AND WORLD VISION IS PROVIDING LIFE-SAVING AID IN SOUTH SUDAN. IF YOU'D LIKE TO HELP, PLEASE VISIT WORLDVISION.ORG.NZ WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK ` JAMIE WHYTE, LAILA HARRE AND JONATHAN MILNE. WELCOME BACK. WE'RE JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` FORMER CABINET MINISTER TURNED RESTAURATEUR LAILA HARRE, FORMER ACT PARTY LEADER JAMIE WHYTE AND SUNDAY STAR TIMES EDITOR JONATHAN MILNE. GOOD MORNING. THE DISCUSSION AROUND METH THIS WEEK AND THE SUGGESTION THAT WE COULD BE EXPERIENCING A SECOND WAVE, A RESURGENCE ` WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, JONATHAN? DO YOU BUY INTO THAT? YEAH, I THINK WE'VE GOT TWO ISSUES HERE ` THE EXTENT` THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY USING IT, YEAH. WHICH, DO SEEM TO BE HIGH. AND THE EXTENT OF THE ACTUAL PROBLEM IT'S CAUSING. AND I DO THINK IT MIGHT BE WORTH DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN PROBLEM USERS ` I KNOW I'M GONNA GET MYSELF IN TROUBLE HERE ` BUT PROBLEM USERS AND THOSE ARE USING IT CASUALLY WITHOUT SO MANY PROBLEMS, AND BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THE INVESTMENT IS BETTER FOCUSED AT HELPING PEOPLE WHO ARE USING IT IN A MORE DANGEROUS MANNER AND USING IT IN A CRIMINAL MANNER AND FOCUSING ON THE SUPPLY THAN TARGETING PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE A SMOKE ONCE IN A BLUE MOON. I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THERE'S AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF HOUSES, FOR INSTANCE ` WE KNOW THIS ` WITH TRACE ELEMENTS OF METH, WHICH SHOWS THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE SMOKING IT MAYBE ONCE. IS THAT THE BIG PROBLEM? IS THAT WHERE WE NEED TO FOCUS OUR RESOURCE? WELL, VANESSA CALDWELL DID TALK ABOUT FUNCTIONING USERS. IN TERMS OF THAT THEN, JAMIE, IS IT` RIGHT, WE'VE SEEN A RISING NUMBER OF CONVICTIONS AND PEOPLE BEING CHARGED` THE GROWTH IS PEOPLE BEING CHARGED WHO HAVEN'T BEEN CHARGED BEFORE. DOES IT SERVE ANY PURPOSE TO CONVICT THESE PEOPLE? WELL, IT SERVES THE PURPOSE OF PEOPLE WHO GET PAID IN THOSE JOBS, BUT, I MEAN, IT SHOULDN'T BE ILLEGAL. NO ONE SHOULD BE ARRESTED ON THE BASIS OF WHAT THEY CHOOSE TO PUT IN THEIR OWN BODIES. SERIOUSLY? I MEAN, THESE ARE CLASS-A DRUGS. WELL, I KNOW THEY'RE CLASS-A DRUGS. BUT, I MEAN` IT'S UP TO THE USERS, RIGHT? SO WHY SHOULD IT BE ILLEGAL? EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THERE'S A PROBLEM INVOLVED ` I GO ALONG WITH THE EXPERTS YOU HAD ON THE SHOW EARLIER ` THE PROBLEM IS NOT A CRIMINAL-TYPE OF PROBLEM. CRIMINAL TYPE PROBLEMS ARE WHERE I ATTACK SOMEBODY ELSE. I MAY BE HARMING MYSELF BY TAKING THESE DRUGS ` NOT ALWAYS, AS YOU SAY ` BUT IN SOME CASES I MAY BE HARMING MYSELF, AND I NEED MEDICAL TREATMENT. WHY ON EARTH ARREST THE PEOPLE INVOLVED? IT'S NOT JUST RIDICULOUS. IT'S ACTUALLY OUTRAGEOUS. DO YOU AGREE, LAILA? I DO, AND I THINK IT'S A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE HEAPS OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE APPROACH THAT WE'VE ACTUALLY BEEN TAKING SUCCESSFULLY OVER THE LAST, SORT OF, SEVEN OR SO YEARS SINCE THE PRIME MINISTER'S METHAMPHETAMINE ACTION PLAN WAS IMPLEMENTED. WE'VE SEEN THE HALVING OF METH USE, ACCORDING TO THE MOST RECENT STATISTICS, WHICH ARE 2013. THERE ARE RUMOURS OF INCREASED USE, BUT THE EXPERTS SEEM TO BE SAYING THAT MAY BE BECAUSE WE HAVE A HARD CORE OF VERY DEPENDANT USERS. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, ALL THE EXTRA MONEY THAT WENT INTO THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THAT PLAN, ALL THE NEW MONEY WENT TOWARDS TREATMENT SERVICES ` $25 MILLION. AND SO WHAT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED, I THINK, OVER THE LAST SEVEN YEARS IS THE MORE WE PUT INTO TREATMENT, THE MORE OPEN ACCESS WE GIVE TO PEOPLE TO SEEK TREATMENT, THE BIGGER SUCCESS WE HAVE IN REDUCING THE USE AND THE HARM FROM THE USE. AND SO` THEY HIGHLIGHTED A PROBLEM THERE, THOUGH, BECAUSE IN THE SENSE THAT WE HEARD FROM PEOPLE THIS WEEK THAT THEY'RE ACCUSED TO GET INTO REHAB` WHICH SHOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT BE THE CASE. I MEAN, THERE SHOULD BE A RIGHT TO REHABILITATION, AND THERE'S A VERY SIMPLE MESSAGE FOR THE GOVERNMENT HERE, AND I SUSPECT THAT IT WILL BE LOOKING AT HOW TO MOVE ON THIS QUITE QUICKLY, BECAUSE THERE ARE REAL CONCERNS IN THE FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES WHERE THE IMPACT IS ` THAT BY POURING ADDITIONAL RESOURCES INTO TREATMENT, BOOSTING UP THE SERVICES THAT WE ALREADY HAVE AND INCREASING ACCESS TO TREATMENT SERVICES, THEY WILL REDUCE HARM. WELL, THE PRIME MINISTER DID SAY AT THE TIME HE LAUNCHED THIS PROGRAMME THAT THEY'D USE ALL TOOLS AVAILABLE, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THEIR CRYING OUT FOR EXTRA RESOURCES TO PROVIDE REHABILITATION SERVICES. YEAH, AND ROSS BELL RIGHTLY SAID THERE'S A LOT OF INVESTMENT GOING INTO PROSECUTING LOW-LEVEL USERS. THAT'S PROBABLY NOT THE MOST PRODUCTIVE. I MEAN, WHAT WE HEARD WAS THESE ROOMS, THESE INJECTION ROOMS, WITH` THAT PEOPLE ARE USING AROUND THE WORLD. I THINK YOU MENTIONED` CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT. 100 OF THEM. CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT, AND, LOOK, WE DRINK BEER IN CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENTS, SO PUBS, AND IT SEEMS TO WORK ALL RIGHT. (CHUCKLES) THEY'RE NOT CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENTS IN THAT SENSE. (CHUCKLES) NOT ALWAYS, AND NOT ALWAYS WELL CONTROLLED. YOU DON'T HAVE A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL FEEDING YOU THE DRINK. WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT, THOUGH, TO TAKE IT OUT OF THE ENVIRONMENT OF CRIMINAL GANGS, WIELDING GUNS, SHOOTING COPS` BUT YOU COULD IMAGINE THE REACTION THAT WOULD GET WHEN YOU FLOAT THAT IN SOMEONE'S NEIGHBOURHOOD. IF YOU LEGALISE IT, THAT WOULD HAPPEN IMMEDIATELY. TO BE HONEST, I DON'T WANT IT IN MY BACKYARD EITHER. IF YOU LEGALISE DRUGS, IMMEDIATELY THERE'LL BE NO GANGS INVOLVED. THEY'D BE NORMAL GOODS SUPPLIED BY NORMAL BUSINESSES. THEY'D BE SAFER. GETTING THEM WOULD BE SAFER. THERE'D BE ENORMOUS SAVINGS IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. THE WAR ON DRUGS IS LUNACY. LOOK, I JUST WANT TO CHANGE ON TO A DIFFERENT TOPIC NOW, WHICH IS THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. WE WERE` HAD THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR ON THERE, AND HE WAS ADAMANT THAT HE DOESN'T BUY INTO THAT DECISION ONE IOTA. THERE SEEMS TO BE NO ROOM FOR MOVEMENT THERE, JONATHAN, DOES THERE? DID I HEAR HIM SAY IN REGARD TO PETER GARDNER THAT WE ABIDE TO THE RULE OF LAW, AND WHEN IT COMES TO SOUTH CHINA SEA, THE TRIBUNAL'S GOT IT WRONG, AND SO WE'RE GONNA IGNORE IT. THE WHOLE WORLD` WE'RE MARCHING IN STEP. THE WHOLE WORLD IS MARCHING OUT OF STEP. IT WAS A BLACK DAY HE SAID` A BLACK DAY IN THE HAGUE, HE SAID, THAT DECISION. I GUESS` ACCORDING TO THE AMBASSADOR. THE BIG QUESTION FOR ME IS ` WHY IS CHINA FIGHTING THIS SO HARD? AND ALMOST LITERALLY NOW WITH THE ARMAMENTS IT'S PLACING IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA IN THE SPRATLY ISLANDS AND THE SCARBOROUGH SHOALS. THE` WHY IS IT FIGHTING SO HARD? COS IT'S NOT THREATENED. I MEAN, NO ONE IS THREATENING ACCESS THROUGH THESE WATERWAYS. PHILIPPINES, VIETNAM ARE NOT A MILITARY THREAT TO CHINA. THEY'RE NOT` SO WHY ARE THEY PUTTING SO MUCH RESOURCE INTO CLAIMING THESE LANDS, BUILDING THESE ISLANDS` COS IN HIS WORDS, HE SAID, 'IT'S MY OWN BACKYARD, AND I'VE GOT A RIGHT TO BUILD THERE, AND THEY'RE DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES.' WELL, I MEAN, THERE ARE` THERE ARE... HUGE ECONOMIC` POTENTIALLY HUGE ECONOMIC RESOURCES AVAILABLE WITH THAT MARITIME AREA. OIL, GAS. THERE ARE VERY SIGNIFICANT FISHING GROUNDS AND FISHING RESOURCES, SO THERE IS A CLEAR ECONOMIC INTEREST BY ALL THE COUNTRIES SURROUNDING THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. I THINK THAT THE` THERE ARE A COUPLE OF ISSUES HERE THAT KIND OF INTEREST ME ` ONE IS` WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET'S ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE RULING WAS A COMPLETE DEFEAT FOR CHINA'S CLAIM FROM A LAW OF THE SEA POINT OF VIEW. MARITIME POINT OF VIEW. THEY DO CLAIM THAT THIS WASN'T AN ISSUE AROUND MARITIME RIGHTS, BUT AROUND TERRITORIAL RIGHTS. SO THEY HAD A JURISDICTIONAL ARGUMENT WITH THE TRIBUNAL. BUT I THINK UNDERLYING THIS IS A REAL ISSUE ABOUT HOW GREAT POWERS DO TREAT INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND CHINA IS NOT THE FIRST, UM, SIGNIFICANT POWER TO EITHER IGNORE OR AVOID THE INTERNATIONAL JUDICIAL PROCESS. I MEAN, THE US IS THE MASTER AT DOING EXACTLY THAT, AND IN FACT, THE US HASN'T EVEN RATIFIED THE LAW OF THE SEA, THE UN CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA, SO, I MEAN, AS THAT BIG POWER EMERGES, IT LOOKS MORE LIKELY TO BE AN OLD-FASHIONED POWER EMERGING AND SEEING ITS RIGHTS AS BEING OUTSIDE THE PURVEY OF THE INTERNATIONAL LEGAL FRAMEWORK, AND I THINK THAT'S A HUGE CONCERN. LAILA MAKES A REALLY IMPORTANT, GOOD POINT ` THAT'S 'TRUTH IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER' ` AND I THINK WHAT YOU'RE GONNA SEE IS AN ENORMOUS COMMUNITY IN CHINA WHO VERY MUCH BELIEVE THAT THEIR NATION IS IN THE RIGHT. UM, WE SAW THE SAME IN RUSSIA WITH THE DISPUTE OVER UKRAINE AND CRIMEA. WE'RE SEEING THE LAST, AS LAILA RIGHTLY POINTS OUT, WITH THE NUMBER OF AMERICAN ISSUES. UM, (CHUCKLES) IT BEGS THE QUESTION ` WHO IS RIGHT ON THESE THINGS? ALL RIGHT. THANKS VERY MUCH. WELL, STAY WITH US. AFTER THE BREAK, WE TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT'S MAKING NEWS NEXT WEEK. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH THE NATION AND OUR PANEL. NOW, BEFORE THE BREAK, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT CHINA. THE PAPER HAS GOT A STORY TODAY ALSO ABOUT CHINA. YEAH. LOOK, UM, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN THEM` THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR BASICALLY SAY, 'WE'RE DISREGARDING THE RULE OF LAW, THE TRIBUNAL,' AND I THINK WE'RE GONNA BE TESTING THAT AGAIN, BECAUSE NZ'S GOT A CASE OVER CHINESE STEEL IMPORTS, CHEAP CHINESE STEEL IMPORTS, UM, THAT COULD WELL BE REFERRED TO THE WTO ` WE'RE REPORTING THAT IN THE SUNDAY STAR TIMES TODAY ` ARE GOING TO WANT TO ABIDE BY THE WTO, THE WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION, ON THIS ONE, AND EVERY INDICATION WE'RE GETTING IS THAT INSTEAD, THEY'RE LOOKING TO RETALIATE AGAINST NZ TRADE, AGAINST OTHER INDUSTRIES, LIKE DAIRY, LIKE WOOL, LIKE KIWIFRUIT. THIS COULD BE QUITE SCARY, BECAUSE CHINA'S THE WORLD'S BIGGEST TRADING NATION NOW, SO IF THEY TURN THEIR FIRE ON NZ, THAT'S ALARMING FOR US. MM, WATCH THIS SPACE. ANOTHER STORY THAT ISN'T GOING AWAY, LAILA, IS HOUSING, ISN'T IT? STEVEN JOYCE TWEETED THAT, UM, HOUSING NZ WASN'T GOING TO BE REQUIRED TO PAY A DIVIDEND FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS. I'M WONDERING ` WHAT THE HECK'S GOING ON IN THE BEEHIVE? HAS, KIND OF, NATIONAL LOST CONTROL OF ITS PEOPLE OR WHAT? > WELL, I THINK THERE'S LOTS OF INFORMATION LEAKING OUT NOW THAT INTERNAL PARTY POLLING IS SHOWING AN ABSOLUTE DECLINE IN NATIONAL PARTY SUPPORT AND LABOUR-GREEN COMBO OVERTAKING NATIONAL IN` IN PUBLIC SUPPORT, SO THERE'S BEEN A VERY SIGNIFICANT SHIFT OF PUBLIC OPINION, AND I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO THIS HOUSING ISSUE. BASICALLY, NATIONAL ARE IN A COMPLETE WEDGE. THEY WON'T DEAL FUNDAMENTALLY WITH THE SUPPLY ISSUE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT PREPARED TO DO A MASSIVE KIWI-BUILT STYLE HOUSING PROGRAMME A LA LABOUR AND THE GREENS, AND THEY ARE TERRIFIED OF INTERVENING ON THE` ON THE, UM, DEMAND SIDE WITH, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY TACKLING SPECULATION. SO THEY'RE KIND OF STUCK, AND AS THEY SIT IN THIS VACUUM, LABOUR HAVE ABSOLUTELY COME IN LAST WEEK TO FILL THAT SPACE, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE ON A ROLE. JAMIE, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? BECAUSE THE THING IS NATIONAL'S BEEN PRETTY SOLID IN THE POLLS. I AGREE WITH THE` NO, I DO AGREE WITH THAT ANALYSIS OF WHAT'S GOING ON POLITICALLY. UH, NATIONAL CAN'T DEAL` IT WON'T DEAL WITH THE SUPPLY IN THE` IN THE WAY THAT A LEFT-WING GOVERNMENT MIGHT ` WELL, I HOPE IT WON'T ` WITH MASSIVE BUILDING PROGRAMMES OF STATE HOUSES. IT OUGHT TO BE DEALING WITH IT BY LIBERALISING THE LAW AROUND LAND USE. IN FACT, THE LABOUR PARTY HAS COME UP WITH A GOOD MOVE, IN MY OPINION, WHICH IS ABOLISHING THE URBAN-RURAL BOUNDARY. UM, THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT NATIONAL SHOULD BE DOING, SHOULD'VE DONE A LONG TIME AGO, UH, BUT THEY HAVE GOT` BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ACT TO DO THAT, THEY'VE CREATED THIS PROBLEM FOR THEMSELVES, AND NOW THEY'RE IN SOME TROUBLE. SO I DO AGREE WITH THIS ANALYSIS. I HOPE THEY'LL ACT IN THE RIGHT WAYS, THOUGH. UM, I DON'T LIKE WHAT I'M HEARING ABOUT BACK-AND-FORTH BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THE CENTRAL` AND THE RESERVE BANK. UH, THE RESERVE BANK IS SUPPOSED TO BE WHOLLY INDEPENDENT, AND IT'S SUPPOSED TO HAVE A LIMITED REMIT TO CONTROLLING INFLATION. SO I'M AFRAID THINGS ARE RATHER UNRAVELLING AROUND THIS HOUSING ISSUE. JONATHAN, I THINK, OBVIOUSLY, LABOUR HAD ANNOUNCED NO DIVIDEND FROM HOUSING NZ, SO WAS NATIONAL'S HAND FORCED ` OBVIOUSLY THEY HAD BEEN CONSIDERING THIS ` AND THEY ALSO LOOKED LIKE SECOND CAB OFF THE RANK, DON'T THEY? YES, IT'S A BIT EMBARRASSING FOR THEM, ESPECIALLY THE WAY IT WAS ANNOUNCED BY STEVEN JOYCE IN A TWEET. BUT, LOOK, IT'S NOT UNPRECEDENTED. THEY'VE USED THAT TOOL IN OTHER AREAS RECENTLY. TVNZ DIDN'T HAVE TO PAY A DIVIDEND FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS TO HELP FUND ITS REBUILD. SO THIS IS A TOOL THEY DO SOMETIMES USE WITH THEIR AGENCIES AND CROWN-OWNED COMPANIES. AND IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU'RE SECOND CAB OFF THE RANK IF YOU STEAL THE GROUND BACK ANYWAY. IF YOU'RE THE GOVERNMENT, YOU'RE THE ONE WHO ACTUALLY GETS TO ACT RATHER THAN JUST TALK. IT DOES MATTER AFTER A WHILE. IF YOU KEEP DOING IT, THERE'S A SENSE GROWS THAT YOU'VE BECOME DIRECTIONLESS, THAT YOU'RE REACTIVE, THAT YOU'RE NOT LEADING THE THINKING IN AREAS. SO I THINK THAT ONCE OR TWICE, YOU'RE RIGHT, IT PROBABLY WON'T MATTER, BUT IT COULD BUILD UP TO CREATING A CERTAIN IMPRESSION. AND, OF COURSE, THIRD TERM GOVERNMENTS CAN BECOME A BIT RUDDERLESS AND THIS ONE, IN MY OPINION, THIS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT'S ALWAYS BEEN A BIT RUDDERLESS, BUT IT'S GETTING WORSE. ALL RIGHT, BRIEFLY BEFORE WE GO, UK POLITICS ` BOY, THAT'S ONE TO WATCH. UM, SO THERESA MAY, NEW PRIME MINISTER, AND BOJO, AS HE IS AFFECTIONATELY REFERRED TO ` BORIS JOHNSON ` IS THE NEW FOREIGN SECRETARY. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, JONATHAN? I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH HE PAYS` WE'VE SEEN HOW MUCH FRANCOIS HOLLANDE PAYS FOR HIS HAIRDRESSER. I WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH BOJO PAYS FOR HIS. BUT, LOOK, WHEN I WAS A YOUNG REPORTER AT THE TIMES EDUCATIONAL SUPPLEMENT, AND HE WAS A RELATIVELY YOUNG MP, I USED TO PHONE HIM UP WHEN I WAS ON DEADLINE AND I DIDN'T HAVE A STORY TO PUT IN THE PAPER, COS I KNEW HE'D ALWAYS SAY SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS. HE KEPT ON DOING THAT THROUGH THE WHOLE BREXIT DEBATE. HE KEPT ON SAYING OUTRAGEOUS STUFF. NOW HE'S GOT A REAL PROBLEM, COS NOW HE'S SUDDENLY GOT TO ACT ON AND LIVE BY THIS RHETORIC THAT HE'S BEEN SPOUTING FOR YEARS. IT'S ALL VERY WELL SPOUTING THIS STUFF FROM THE SIDE BENCHES AND THE BACK BENCHES. BUT THERESA MAY HAS TO DRAW THIS GOVERNMENT TOGETHER, DOESN'T SHE, AND THIS IS A WAY OF THROWING SOMETHING TO SOMEONE WHO COULD BE YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM, MAKE HIM YOUR CLOSEST MATE. WELL, YES, HE'S VERY POPULAR WITH CERTAIN SECTIONS OF THE BRITISH POPULATION. HE HAS A COLUMN IN THE TELEGRAPH, AND YOU DON'T WANT TO GUY AGAINST YOU RUNNING A COLUMN IN THE TELEGRAPH. SO I THINK IT'S A CLEVER MOVE, AND I ALSO DON'T THINK BORIS WILL FEEL BOUND BY HIS PREVIOUS STATEMENTS. HE'S QUITE SHAMELESS, REALLY. HE'S RATHER WONDERFUL. HE'LL SAY ONE THING ONE DAY, THE OTHER THE NEXT THING. 'OH, I WAS JOKING. COME ON.' BUT A SERIOUS FOREIGN SECRETARY? BORIS JOHNSON? WELL, ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE ADAPT TO THOSE KINDS OF ROLES, AND ACTUALLY I'M REALLY MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN THERESA MAY. I MEAN, HERE WE HAVE A NEW PRIME MINISTER FOR BRITAIN; ONE WHO'S LAUNCHED HER CLAIM TO THE PRIME MINISTERSHIP ON WHAT LOOKS LIKE A PRETTY, KIND OF, PROGRESSIVE ORIENTATION. AND SOME OF THE RHETORIC WITH, YOU KNOW, REPLACEMENT OF THE CHANCELLOR, SHE MAY BE READING THE PUBLIC MOOD IN BRITAIN, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, ABOUT TACKLING INEQUALITY. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S SOME REAL 'ROCK THE TORY PARTY BASE' STUFF HAPPENING HERE. ALL RIGHT, WELL, WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE. SORRY, JAMIE. LET'S TAKE A QUICK WHIP THROUGH WHAT COULD BE IN THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. THE PRIME MINISTER TOUCHES DOWN IN INDONESIA TODAY. HE'LL HAVE HIS FIRST MEETING WITH INDONESIAN PRESIDENT JOKO WIDODO TOMORROW. US VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN MAKES A FLEETING VISIT ON THURSDAY. HE'S MEETING WITH FOREIGN MINISTER MURRAY MCCULLY. AND PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS INTO THE HOMELESSNESS INQUIRY LAUNCHED BY LABOUR, GREENS AND THE MAORI PARTY CAN BE MADE FROM TOMORROW. AND ON THURSDAY THE RESERVE BANK WILL UPDATE ITS ECONOMICS ASSESSMENT. REMEMBER, AS JAMIE MENTIONED, THEY'RE IN THAT TIT-FOR-TAT WITH THE GOVERNMENT OVER HOUSING, SO ALL EYES WILL BE ON THEM. AND THAT'S ALL FROM US TODAY. THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR VIEWS, AND WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK. CAPTIONS BY ABLE. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 THIS PROGRAMME WAS MADE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE NZ ON AIR PLATINUM FUND.