GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO 'THE NATION'. I'M LISA OWEN. TODAY ` CAN AUCKLAND BUILD ITS WAY OUT OF THE HOUSING CRISIS? AUCKLANDERS ARE GONNA NEED TO GET OVER THEMSELVES. THERE'S, AS I SAY, A REALITY CHECK HAPPENING HERE. THERE IS A DEMAND FOR HOUSES. WE ARE GOING TO NEED TO MEET THAT DEMAND. THE UNITARY PLAN CALLS FOR 420,000 NEW HOMES ` MUCH MORE THAN THE COUNCIL HAD PLANNED, MORE THAN SOME PEOPLE WANT AND MORE THAN SOME SAY WE NEED. WE'LL GO OVER THE PLAN WITH BOTH SUPPORTERS AND CRITICS. THEN ` DEMOCRATS HAVE OFFICIALLY NOMINATED HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT. THE FIRST WOMAN EVER CHOSEN BY A MAJOR US PARTY. POLITICAL EDITOR PATRICK GOWER IS THERE WITH BOTH THE CLINTON AND SANDERS CAMPS. AND WHY ARE MORE AUSTRALIANS CHOOSING MINOR PARTIES OVER LABOR AND THE LIBERALS? WE TALK TO THE ABC'S ELECTION ANALYST, ANTONY GREEN. THEN LATER ` PAUL EGO AND JEREMY CORBETT BRING THE LAUGHS. AND WE WRAP UP THE WEEK WITH OUR PANEL ` BERNARD HICKEY, SIMON WILSON AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US TODAY. WE'D LOVE YOUR FEEDBACK, PARTICULARLY ON THE UNITARY PLAN. SO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ON SOCIAL MEDIA. THE DETAILS ARE ONSCREEN. AND IF YOU'RE A TWEETER, YOU CAN FOLLOW OUR TWITTER PANEL ` BLOGGERS MATT LOWRIE AND BEN ROSS ON #NATIONTV3. WELL, IT'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR A PLAN THAT WILL CHANGE THE FACE OF AUCKLAND. THIS WEEK, THE INDEPENDENT HEARINGS PANEL ISSUED ITS BLUEPRINT FOR AUCKLAND'S FUTURE, GOING FAR BEYOND THE DRAFT UNITARY PLAN SUBMITTED BY THE COUNCIL. IT'S SUPPOSED TO HELP COOL THE HOUSING CRISIS BY INCREASING SUPPLY AND INTENSIFYING THE CENTRAL SUBURBS, ALLOWING FOR 420,000 MORE HOUSES TO BE BUILT. BUT WILL IT WORK? WELL, I'M JOINED BY FLORA APULU FROM THE COUNCIL'S YOUTH ADVISORY PANEL, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE PROPERTY INSTITUTE ASHLEY CHURCH, SALLY HUGHES FROM THE CHARACTER COALITION AND ARCHITECTURAL CRITIC TOMMY HONEY. TOMMY, IF I CAN COME TO YOU FIRST ` WHAT'S THE BIGGEST PLUS OR MINUS DO YOU THINK IN THIS PLAN? WELL, THE BIGGEST PLUS I THINK IS ITS AMBITION, AND IT'S VERY BOLD, AND IT'S GONE, AS YOU SAY, FURTHER THAN OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT, BUT I THINK IT WILL GIVE CHOICE ABOUT WHERE INTENSITY OCCURS RATHER THAN THE INTENSITY BEING CRAMMED INTO VERY RESTRICTED AREAS AS THE PREVIOUS PLAN HAD. SALLY, BIG AND BOLD, IS IT? OR...? YES. THE CHARACTER COALITION HAS NEVER BEEN OPPOSED TO INTENSIFICATION. WE'VE NEVER SAID NO TO THAT. BUT WHAT WE WANTED WAS A SAY IN WHERE THAT INTENSIFICATION HAPPENED TO AVOID THE UNNECESSARY DESTRUCTION OF OUR FINITE HISTORICAL CHARACTER HERITAGE AREAS. MM. TOMMY, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE BIGGEST PLUS OR MINUS? SORRY, ASHLEY, WHAT DO YOU THINK? LISA, I DESPERATELY WANT TO TOTALLY SUPPORT THIS, AND IN RESPECTIVE THINGS LIKE THE INTENSIFICATION AND THE INCREASE OF THE NUMBERS TO 420,000 AND THE UP-AND-OUT, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, THAT'S FANTASTIC. REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FACT, THOUGH, THAT IT'S SUCH BREAKNECK SPEED, THAT IT'S IGNORING ASPECTS OF CULTURE AND HERITAGE, WHICH ARE IMPORTANT TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF A SOPHISTICATED, MODERN CITY. FLORA, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? POTENTIALLY. I THINK JUST FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, BEING A YOUNG PERSON IN AUCKLAND, LOOKING AT THE UNITARY PLAN, I THINK IT DOES BRING THAT CALL TO ACTION THAT COUNCIL IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT AUCKLAND'S GROWING POPULATION, ESPECIALLY THE GROWING POPULATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE, SO, YEAH, DEFINITELY. ASHLEY, IF I CAN COME BACK TO YOU. MORE THAN 400 DWELLINGS ` CAPACITY FOR THAT ` WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO GET BUILT? I THINK THERE'LL BE A PROLIFERATION OF APARTMENTS, AND THAT'S OBVIOUS ALREADY. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK AROUND THE INTENTION TO BUILD UP IN THE INNER CITY, AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING. THAT REALLY REFLECTS, I THINK, THE DESIRE FOR THAT KIND OF ACCOMMODATION. AND I THINK THERE'LL BE A FAIRLY LARGE INCREASE IN THE- IN RESPECT OF THE URBAN BOUNDARY, WHICH IS GOING TO BE INCREASED BY 30%, SO THERE'LL BE A LOT MORE BUILDING OF FREESTANDING DWELLINGS ON THE PERIPHERALS OF THE CITY. BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE GOOD, BUT AS I SAID BEFORE, MY CONCERNS ARE AROUND THE IMPACT ON HERITAGE AND CULTURE, PARTICULARLY IN THE INNER CITY. SO WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ` WE'RE GOING TO GET SORT OF FRIDGE-STYLE APARTMENTS OR-? POTENTIALLY, AND IN FACT YOU'VE ONLY GOT TO GO BACK TO THE '90S AND EARLY 2000S TO SEE THAT WE'VE ALREADY HAD THAT. IN FACT, IT WAS 2006, 2007 THAT THE COUNCIL PUT A BAN ON THOSE SORTS OF DWELLINGS BECAUSE THEY RECOGNISED WHAT DAMAGE THEY CAN DO TO THE CULTURE OF THE CITY, AND THIS PLAN ESSENTIALLY DOES AWAY WITH THAT REQUIREMENT AND GOES BACK TO THAT. WELL, I'D BE SURPRISED IF WE START TO SEE THOSE. I THINK PEOPLE HAVE LEARNT THAT THOSE ARE BARELY TENANTABLE AND HORRIFIC TO LIVE IN. MOST DEVELOPERS- THE NEW DEVELOPMENTS YOU'RE SEEING IN THE EXISTING RULES ARE PROVIDING LARGER HOUSES, OR LARGER APARTMENTS REALLY, ALONG THE RIDGE OF K ROAD, GREAT NORTH RD THERE. THE ONES THAT THEY'RE PRODUCING AT THE MOMENT ARE OF A MUCH HIGHER QUALITY, BECAUSE DEVELOPERS KNOW THAT'S WHERE THE MARKET'S HEADING. SO YOU BASICALLY DON'T THINK THAT HIGH-DENSITY HOUSE` IT'S INEVITABLE THAT HIGH-DENSITY HOUSING IS UGLY AND OF POOR QUALITY? YOU THINK IT'D BE MADE WELL? OH, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THEY'RE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT. YEAH. WELL, WE'VE GOT SOME ACTUAL PICTURES, I THINK, THAT YOU'VE PROVIDED TO US OF SOME EXAMPLES, SO SHOULD WE TAKE A LOOK AT THOSE IF WE CAN BRING THOSE UP. THIS IS THE KIND OF THING YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? YEAH, SO THIS IS ACTUALLY A PRECEDENT FROM WELLINGTON, SURPRISINGLY, AND I THINK THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY PIECE OF ARCHITECTURE, BECAUSE IT SITS IN MT VICTORIA, WHICH IS AN HISTORIC AREA; IT DOESN'T TRY TO BE AN HISTORIC HOUSE, BUT IT REFERENCES THEM. AS A PIECE OF ARCHITECTURE, IT'S NOT TWO BLANK, SOLID WALLS. IT REALLY WORKS HARD. WHAT'S AMAZING IS IT'S THREE-STOREYS HIGH, SO IT'S- WITH AN UNDERGROUND CAR PARK. IT'S DONE BY PARSONSON ARCHITECTS ` VERY VERY CAPABLE, A WINNER OF AWARDS. BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING, IT'S ON A 560M2 SECTION, WHICH IS PRETTY STANDARD, AND THEY'VE MANAGED TO GET I THINK EIGHT APARTMENTS ON THERE. ON A 560-? WELL, SALLY HUGHES, THAT DOESN'T LOOK SO BAD, DOES IT? WHAT IS THE PROBLEM IF WE HAVE TO BOWL A FEW VILLAS TO PUT SOME OF THOSE UP? ONE VILLA. ONE VILLA FOR EIGHT HOUSES. ONE VILLA FOR EIGHT HOUSES. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM. THE PROBLEM IS IN OUR CHARACTER AREAS WHERE THERE ARE CONSISTENT BEAUTIFUL HOUSES OR BUNGALOWS OR VILLAS, WHERE THAT STARTS TO BE DEGRADED, THAT'S THE PROBLEM. I THINK INTENSIFICATION CAN BE DONE VERY WELL, BUT IN OUR OLDER SUBURBS, I DON'T THINK WE'LL ACHIEVE WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR, WHICH IS AFFORDABLE HOUSING, IF WE START TO MAKE INROADS INTO THOSE OLDER SUBURBS. LISA, I TAKE ADDITIONAL ISSUE. I AGREE WITH SALLY, AND, I MEAN, I'D LOVE TO THINK THAT TOMMY WAS RIGHT, BUT I DON'T THINK HE IS. I THINK THAT AS LONG AS YOU'VE GOT COMMERCIAL DEVELOPERS FOR WHOM THERE ARE NO RULES EXCEPT THE MARKETPLACE, THEY ARE GOING TO GO FOR THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR. AS LONG AS THERE'S A BUYER ` AND THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BUY THESE SHOEBOX APARTMENTS ` AS LONG AS THERE'S A BUYER, THEY'RE GOING TO BUILD THEM. SO I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY, WHILE I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT'S RIGHT, I SIMPLY DON'T BELIEVE IT'S TRUE. I THINK THAT WE WILL END UP WITH THESE THINGS, AND WE WILL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM THAT WE HAD IN THE '90S. FLORA, DO YOU THINK WE'RE GOING TO GET THESE LOW-QUALITY MASS DEVELOPMENTS? YEAH, AND I GUESS THAT'S ANOTHER ONE OF MY BIGGEST CONCERNS, I WORK FOR A POLICE YOUTH-DEVELOPMENT TRUST CALLED GENESIS YOUTH TRUST ` AND I DON'T THINK A LOT OF THE PEOPLE I WORK WITH WOULD BE ABLE TO AFFORD THOSE KIND OF HOUSES AND BE ABLE TO FIT THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THEIR FAMILIES. SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT KIND OF QUALITY OF HOUSING WILL BE IN SOME PARTS OF AUCKLAND COMPARED TO OTHER PARTS, AND THAT'S MY BIGGEST CONCERN, AROUND AFFORDABILITY AND QUALITY. IF THERE'S NO RULES, LIKE WHAT ASHLEY'S SAID, THEN, YEAH, MY CONCERN IS THAT WE'LL HAVE SOME SHOEBOXES PROBABLY OUT SOUTH AUCKLAND, WEST, NORTH-WEST, AND THEN WE'LL HAVE THESE BEAUTIFUL HOUSES IN OTHER PARTS OF AUCKLAND. I WANT TO COME BACK TO THE WEST AND THE SOUTH SOON, BUT I JUST` TOMMY, HOW MUCH? HOW MUCH FOR THAT TERRACED HOUSE IN AUCKLAND? BECAUSE THAT'S THE POINT THAT FLORA MAKES. SHE STILL THINKS THAT'S OUT OF HER REACH, IN MANY PEOPLE'S REACH. OK, SO I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S A REALLY... THE ALLOWANCE OF MORE AREAS THAT COULD BE INTENSIFIED- IF YOU'RE A DEVELOPER AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT A 1000M2 SITE IN A LEAFY SUBURB OR A SAME-SIZED SITE IN ANOTHER SUBURB THAT'S NOT AS EXPENSIVE AND YOU CAN PUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF PROPERTIES ON IT, YOU'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO MAKE MORE MONEY OUT OF THAT ONE THAT'S NOT IN A LEAFY SUBURB. THE STAND-ALONE HOUSES ARE ACTUALLY SAFER IN THIS SCHEME, BECAUSE THEY'VE ALLOWED FOR A LOT MORE INTENSITY ELSEWHERE. SALLY'S NOT CONVINCED. WELL, I'M NOT CONVINCED, BECAUSE I'M SEEING WHAT'S HAPPENING ALREADY. THERE WERE SIX SINGLE-STOREY APARTMENTS, MODEST, ON THE WATERFRONT THERE. THEY WERE DEMOLISHED EARLIER THIS YEAR, (CLEARS THROAT) EXCUSE ME, AND TWO HOUSES WORTH $4 MILLION HAVE BEEN BUILT IN THEIR PLACE. THAT'S THE SORT OF THING THAT WE'VE SEEN HAPPENING UP TO NOW, AND THE RULES- BUT THAT'S REVERSE INTENSITY, ISN'T IT? EXACTLY. BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S A GOOD OR A BAD THING? NO, IT'S A BAD THING. IT'S A REALLY BAD THING. SO IT'S A BAD THING THAT THERE ARE FEWER HOU`? I'M TRYING TO GET THIS. SO I THOUGHT YOU WERE STANDING UP FOR THE SINGLE STAND-ALONE HOUSE. NO, WE WANT TO PRESERVE THE CHARACTER SUBURBS THAT ARE WORTH PRESERVING, THOSE ONES, WE WANT TO PRESERVE THEM AS THE STORY OF AUCKLAND. BUT IS ALL-ATTRACTIVE AND ALL-PRETTY AND AESTHETICALLY PLEASING GOOD? BECAUSE UNDER THIS PLAN, THOSE HISTORIC HOUSES THAT NEED TO BE PROTECTED CAN STILL BE PROTECTED, CAN'T THEY? NO. NO. THERE IS- WE'VE GONE BACK TO THE SPECIAL-CHARACTER AREA. THERE'S JUST A SLIM SET OF RULES THAT PROVIDE ONE SORT OF LITTLE STOP BEFORE DEMOLITION, BUT DEMOLITION HAS STILL BEEN HAPPENING. WE'VE LOOKED- WE'VE SEEN THAT A LOT ACROSS AUCKLAND UNDER THE CURRENT RULES, AND THAT'S WHAT WILL STILL BE IN PLACE. ASHLEY? LISA, ALL OF THIS COULD'VE BEEN AVOIDED. SALLY'S RIGHT. ALL OF THIS COULD'VE BEEN AVOIDED IF THERE WAS A VERY STRONG OVERLAY PHILOSOPHY IN THIS PLAN THAT TALKED ABOUT QUALITY, THAT TALKED ABOUT QUALITY OF DEVELOPMENT AND QUALITY OF WHAT WE DO, AND IT WOULD'VE DEALT WITH HERITAGE ISSUES; IT WOULD'VE DEALT WITH CULTURAL ISSUES; IT WOULD'VE DEALT WITH THE SORTS OF ISSUES THAT TOMMY'S TALKING ABOUT, BUT NONE OF THAT'S THERE. IT'S A BREAKNECK FOCUS ON THE DEVELOPMENT AT ALL SPEED, AND IN THE PROCESS, BASICALLY LOSING WHAT WE'VE HAD IN RESPECT OF CULTURE AND HERITAGE. TOMMY, YOU STILL THINK THERE ARE CHECKS AND BALANCES FOR QUALITY, DON'T YOU? EXPLAIN THAT. YEAH, I DO, BUT I THINK THERE'S A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY, WHICH IS PROBABLY GOING TO BECOME THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM. SO THEY DO TALK ABOUT EQUALITY COMPACT URBAN FORM, WHICH HAS BEEN IN THE AUCKLAND PLAN FOR A LONG TIME, AND I'M NOT QUITE SURE ABOUT THE BREAKNECK SPEED; I DON'T THINK THE BULLDOZERS ARE GOING TO BREAK OUT TOMORROW, BUT WHAT THEY'VE TALKED ABOUT IS A SHIFT FROM A RULES-LED APPROACH TO AN OUTCOME APPROACH. THE KEY IN THERE IS THAT OUTCOME, QUALITY OUTCOME. NOW, WHO'S` SO HOW DO YOU GUARANTEE IT? EXACTLY, AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS... NOT ALL THE RULEBOOKS HAVE BEEN THROWN AWAY. THEY'VE KEPT SOME RULES ABOUT YARDS AND HEIGHT RELATION TO BOUNDARY` BUT THERE'S NO RULES` ASHLEY'S RIGHT, THERE'S NO RULES AROUND SIZES OF MAIN ROOMS. HONEY: NO. YOU CAN JAM PROPERTIES UP AGAINST EACH OTHER. WELL, ACTUALLY YOU CAN'T. WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT SEPARATION OF BUILDINGS, THEY MEAN WITHIN A SITE, NOT BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR NEIGHBOUR. YOU CAN'T GO UP TO YOUR NEIGHBOUR. SO WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS PEOPLE WILL TAKE PROPOSALS TO THE COUNCIL THAT THEY CAN BUILD AS OF RIGHT, AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO REVIEW THEM. IF THEY'RE OVER A CERTAIN SCALE, THEY HAVE TO BE ASSESSED BY THE COUNCIL, AND THAT IS GOING TO MEAN THAT THE COUNCIL HAS A GREATER RESPONSIBILITY TO BE GOOD AT ASSESSING, AND I'M NOT SURE THE COUNCIL IS EXPERIENCED ENOUGH TO DO THAT. SO THE PROBLEM IN THIS AREA IS ` IF YOU'RE GOING TO BUILD 13,000 HOUSES A YEAR AND THERE ARE 13,000 BUILDING CONSENTS COMING THROUGH, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THAT ASSESSING AND LOOKING AT IT HAVE TO HAVE A MUCH BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF QUALITY. YOU ONLY HAVE TO TALK TO ARCHITECTS IN AUCKLAND ABOUT THE 23-YEAR-OLD SITTING ACROSS THE COUNTER TELLING THEM WHAT THEY CAN'T DO, AND SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE IS NO FORMAL TRAINING FOR PEOPLE TO BE QUALITY ASSESSORS. THE STOPGAP IS GOING TO BE THE COUNCIL, AND THE VOLUME OF HOUSES COMING THROUGH POTENTIALLY MEANS THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PAY THE ATTENTION TO IT. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? AND THE TRACK RECORD ISN'T GOOD. I MEAN, EVERYBODY CAN POINT TO A BEAUTIFUL VILLA THAT'S BEEN DEMOLISHED IN THEIR AREA AND SOMETHING BUILT IN ITS PLACE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SO CONCERNED ABOUT, IS THAT IT'S A FINITE RESOURCE, THAT HISTORY OF AUCKLAND, AND IT'S EVERYBODY'S HISTORY; IT'S NOT JUST THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THAT AREA. BUT, FLORA, IS THAT STANDING IN THE WAY OF THE NEXT GENERATION GETTING A ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD? YEAH. AND WHERE IS THE LINE? YEAH, I THINK THAT THE UNITARY PRESENTS A REALLY GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR THE GROWTH FOR OUR HOUSES IN AUCKLAND, BUT I THINK IT ALSO PROVIDES THE OPTIONS FOR MORE MEDIUM HOUSES IN AUCKLAND, AND I THINK WE NEED AFFORDABLE HOUSES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE, YOUNG FAMILIES, ALL FAMILIES AS WELL AS, YEAH, MORE OPTIONS. AND SOME OF US DON'T ALL WANT TO LIVE IN THOSE THREE-BEDROOM HOUSES, YOU KNOW, AND SOME OF US ACTUALLY DO JUST NEED MAYBE A GOOD-QUALITY ONE-BEDROOM APARTMENT, YOU KNOW. SO WE NEED MORE OPTIONS, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE WELL. WHICH BRINGS ME BACK TO THE QUESTION I STARTED ASKING YOU ` HOW MUCH ARE THOSE TERRACED HOUSES`? TO BUILD ONE OF THOSE TERRACED HOUSES IN AUCKLAND, WHAT WOULD THAT COST? WELL, HOW LONG IS A PIECE OF STRING? 700,000 TO 800,000 ` IS THAT RIGHT, TOMMY? BALLPARK? YEAH, I LOOK AT THAT BUILDING IN WELLINGTON ` WHICH IS ACTUALLY INTERESTING ` THAT IS ACTUALLY BUILT BY ONE FAMILY AS AN INVESTMENT TO RENT OUT; THEY'RE NOT SELLING THOSE PLACES IN WELLINGTON. THAT'S JUST A LONG-TERM RENTAL PLACE. BUT THAT'S RIGHT, ISN'T IT? 700,000 TO 800,000. I WOULD EXPECT IF YOU WERE GOING TO GET EIGHT PROPERTIES LIKE THAT ON A SITE, IT WOULD COST YOU IN THE RANGE OF ABOUT THAT. THEY'RE NOT` IS THAT AFFORDABLE, FLORA? DEFINITELY NOT, FOR THE AVERAGE YOUNG PERSON WHO'S TRYING TO FIND A JOB. WHICH BRINGS US TO THE POINT THAT AFFORDABLE HOUSING` A QUOTA FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING'S BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THIS PLAN. THEY'RE GOING TO LEAVE IT TO THE MARKET TO DRIVE THE SUPPLY OF THE KINDS OF PLACES THAT FLORA'S TALKING ABOUT, BUT CAN WE RELY ON THE MARKET FOR THAT, ASHLEY? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE FAVOURED THE FIRST-TIME BUYER NOW. YEAH, IT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION. WHETHER WE CAN RELY ON THE MARKET TO DO THAT OR NOT, I'M NOT SURE. I UNDERSTAND WHY THEY'VE TAKEN IT OUT, THOUGH, BECAUSE IT WAS A REQUIREMENT, I THINK, THAT WAS UNACHIEVABLE. IT WAS ESSENTIALLY PUTTING A CONSTRAINT ON DEVELOPERS THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLY WITH, SO I AGREE WITH YOU THAT WHAT THEY'VE DONE MAY NOT NECESSARILY SOLVE THAT ISSUE, IT WASN'T GOING TO RESOLVE BY, EFFECTIVELY, SAYING TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR, 'HEY, YOU SOLVE THIS PROBLEM FOR US.' AND IT WON'T BE SOLVED BY SLICING AND DICING THE CHARACTER SUBURBS. WHAT IT NEEDS IS A CONCERTED EFFORT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT, THE COUNCIL AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO GET TOGETHER TO PROVIDE THOSE AFFORDABLE HOUSES, WHICH I TOTALLY AGREE ARE REALLY NEEDED. IT'S THE BIGGEST NEED WE HAVE. MM, BUT BILL ENGLISH WOULD PROBABLY SAY, IN FACT, HE SAID, 'THERE'S NO POINT HAVING BEAUTIFULLY DESIGNED CITIES 'IF 90% OF NZERS CAN'T AFFORD TO LIVE IN THEM. WE MIGHT HAVE TO GET A BIT UGLY,' HE SAYS. MIGHT WE HAVE TO GET A BIT UGLY? THERE'S PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES ACROSS AUCKLAND FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING TO BE BUILT. I THINK HE'S ALIGNING CHEAP, AFFORDABLE WITH UGLY, AND THAT IS COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE. WE CAN HAVE BEAUTIFUL CITIES FULL OF AFFORDABLE HOUSES THAT MIGHT COST A LOT LESS, AND THERE ARE MANY, MANY EXAMPLES AROUND THE WORLD OF THIS OCCURRING. JUST THE OTHER DAY I GOT AN EMAIL THROUGH MY INBOX FROM A REAL ESTATE AGENT WANTING TO SELL ME A $420,000 STUDIO APARTMENT ON K ROAD, BRAND-NEW IN A VERY VERY WELL-DESIGNED DEVELOPMENT. NOW, WHAT HAPPENS IN THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING ARGUMENT IS PEOPLE SAY, 'YEAH, YES, YES, BUT THAT'S JUST A STUDIO APARTMENT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A THREE-BEDROOM HOUSE.' THERE ARE MANY, MANY` IF YOU GO ON TO TRADE ME AND SEARCH UNDER $400,000 OR UNDER $500,000, THERE ARE A LOT OF PROPERTIES THERE, AND THEY'RE AVAILABLE. WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT BECAUSE ELSEWHERE THE PRICES ARE REALLY CLIMBING, PEOPLE THINK THAT AVERAGE PRICE IS THE ENTRY PRICE. IT ISN'T, AND THERE ARE SOME GREAT WAYS FOR PEOPLE TO GET INTO THE MARKET. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT TRANSPORT, BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE HOUSING AREAS, WELL, THEY'RE GOING TO BE CLUSTERED AROUND TRANSPORT HUBS AND MAIN ROUTES. I'M WONDERING ` ARE WE CREATING DEMAND FOR SERVICES THAT WE DON'T ALREADY HAVE IN PLACE? BRITOMART'S AT CAPACITY FOR TRAINS; SYMONDS STREET IS FULL WITH BUSES; CENTRAL RAIL LINK IS YEARS OFF, FLORA, SO ARE WE PUTTING PEOPLE IN PLACES WHERE WE CAN'T TRANSPORT THEM? YEAH, DEFINITELY IF WE'RE LOOKING AT PUTTING A LOT OF THE GROWTH GOING OUTWARDS WITHOUT THE, YOU KNOW` WELL, CURRENTLY, WE DON'T HAVE THE, YOU KNOW, TRANSPORT INFRASTRUCTURE OR, I DON'T THINK, THE SOCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE TO ACTUALLY TO GO OUTWARDS. SO IT NEEDS TO BE` YOU KNOW, IF WE ARE GOING TO BUILD UP, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT, LIKE WHAT'S EVERYONE'S SAYING, THERE'S THOSE GOOD-QUALITY HOMES AND DIFFERENT HOUSING OPTIONS SO THAT... YEAH, IT IS ABOUT PUTTING, YOU KNOW, YOUNG PEOPLE AROUND THOSE METROPOLITAN AREAS SO THAT THEY DO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES AND ACCESS TO THOSE OPPORTUNITIES AS WELL. IF WE KEEP THEM ON THE FRINGE OF THE CITY, HOW ARE THEY GOING TO GET THERE? MY LITTLE BROTHER WORKS IN THE CITY. HE NEEDS TO TAKE, LIKE, THREE BUSES AND ONE TRAIN FROM MANUREWA TO AUCKLAND. IT'S NOT WORKING. FAIR POINT, ASHLEY? WELL, I THINK IN RESPECT OF TRANSPORT INFRASTRUCTURE, WHILE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING'S CORRECT, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE THE` TO THE EXTENT THAT WE NEED TO DO THIS QUICKLY, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE THE LUXURY OF SAYING, 'LET'S GET THE TRANSPORT INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE BEFORE WE START BUILDING.' WE HAVE TO BUILD NOW, AND THAT MUCH I AGREE WITH, AND IF THAT MEANS THAT THE TRANSPORT INFRASTRUCTURE'S IN CATCH-UP FOR THE NEXT FEW YEARS, THEN SO BE IT. IT'S JUST GOING TO HAVE TO BE, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO GET THIS ACCOMMODATION IN PLACE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. FLORA, YOU ALSO RAISED THE POINT THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE INTENSIFICATION, HEAVY INTENSIFICATION, IN SOUTH AUCKLAND AND SOME OUT WEST. THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE FUSS OVER INTENSIFYING IN SOUTH AUCKLAND, AND PEOPLE HAVE RAISED CONCERNS THAT THAT POSSIBLY IS WHERE LOW-QUALITY HOUSING WILL BE DONE. DO YOU HAVE THAT FEAR? YEAH. I THINK THERE'S ALREADY SOME EXISTING EXAMPLES OF WHERE THERE'S BEEN DENSITY DONE IN SOUTH AUCKLAND WHERE IT'S NOT BEEN DONE WELL, SO I- YOU KNOW, GROWING UP THERE AS WELL, I DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN, BECAUSE I'VE SEEN THE ADVERSE EFFECTS OF WHEN WE CLUSTER THESE JUST UGLY, REALLY LOW-QUALITY HOUSING, YOU KNOW, APARTMENTS NEXT TO EACH OTHER, WHERE I SEE KIDS GETTING INTO TROUBLE JUST BY ASSOCIATION OF PROXIMITY, LIVING NEXT TO EACH OTHER. I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR AUCKLAND IF WE'RE GOING TO BE THE MOST LIVEABLE CITY, AND I DON'T THINK ANY YOUNG PERSON OR CHILD SHOULD HAVE TO LIVE IN THESE HOUSES WHERE IT'S LEAKY, WHERE THEY'RE GETTING HEALTH-RELATED ISSUES BECAUSE OF THAT. YEAH. LISA, INCIDENTALLY, THAT PHRASE, 'THE MOST LIVEABLE CITY', THAT'S THE KEY PHRASE IN THIS WHOLE THING. NOBODY DISAGREES WITH THAT, SO THIS THING SHOULD BE ABOUT... BUT IT'S HOW WE GO FORWARD FROM HERE. SO IN THE TIME` NO TIME LEFT NOW, BUT I JUST WANT TO QUICKLY ASK YOU ` SHOULD THE COUNCIL PASS THIS OR NOT? YES. I THINK IT'S GOING TO, BUT I'M REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE RESULTS OF THAT. ASHLEY? I'M WITH SALLY. I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO, BUT I'M WORRIED ABOUT SOME OF THE ASPECTS AROUND QUALITY AND CULTURE. FLORA? YES, BUT WE NEED TO BE TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION THE MAORI CULTURAL IMPACTS ASSESSMENTS FOR THEIR HERITAGE, CHARACTER HERITAGE, AS WELL. WE NEED TO BE TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION BEFORE WE PASS THIS THE QUALITY AND PROVISIONS FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING. SO BASICALLY YES WITH SOME TWEAKS. OK. WELL, STAY WITH US. AFTER THE BREAK ` WHY ARE MORE AUSTRALIANS TURNING AWAY FROM LABOR AND THE LIBERALS IN FAVOUR OF SMALLER PARTIES? WE TALK TO THE ABC'S LEGENDARY ELECTION ANALYST ANTONY GREEN. AND WE HEAD TO THE DEMOCRATS CONVENTION IN PHILADELPHIA, WHERE PATRICK GOWER IS FEELING THE 'BERN'. WELCOME BACK. THE DEMOCRATS MADE HISTORY IN PHILADELPHIA WHEN THEY BECOME THE FIRST MAJOR US PARTY TO NOMINATE A WOMAN FOR PRESIDENT. HILLARY CLINTON TOLD THE CROWD SHE CAN DO THE JOB THAT DONALD TRUMP CAN'T, AND THOUSANDS OF SUPPORTERS AGREED. WE'LL HEAR FROM ONE OF THEM IN A FEW MINUTES, BUT FIRST, POLITICAL EDITOR PATRICK GOWER SPOKE TO MICHAEL GIBINO, WHO RAN 1800KM TO THE CONVENTION TO SUPPORT CLINTON'S FORMER RIVAL, BERNIE SANDERS. SO YOU RAN, IN NZ, THAT'S 1800KM. YOU RAN THAT. YOU RAN THAT FOR BERNIE SANDERS. YOU'RE A BERNIE SANDERS DELEGATE. THAT'S RIGHT. BERNIE SANDERS DELEGATE. AND I RAN IT TO REALLY HELP EMBODY THE PASSION AND THE GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT THAT A LOT OF THE BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTERS HAVE HAD AND HAVE HELPED TO GET HIM AS FAR AS HE HAD AND HAS HELPED MOVE THE POLITICAL REVOLUTION TO TAKE ON THE ESTABLISHMENT THIS FAR, SO FAR. SO I WANT TO HELP EMBODY THAT AND ALSO RAISE AWARENESS OF INCOME INEQUALITY ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND HOMELESSNESS AS WELL. FOR KIWIS WHO DON'T KNOW THE GEOGRAPHY, HOW MANY STATES DID YOU COME THROUGH? WHERE DID YOU COME THROUGH? SURE, SO SIX STATES, AND OUR STATES, OBVIOUSLY, ARE FAIRLY LARGE HERE. SO, YOU KNOW, I WENT THROUGH` I STARTED IN MINNESOTA, WENT THROUGH WISCONSIN, ILLINOIS, INDIANA, OHIO AND THEN FINALLY PENNSYLVANIA, ONE OF THE LONGEST STATES IN THE COUNTRY AND ALSO ONE OF THE HILLIEST, GOING THROUGH THE APPALACHIAN MOUNTAINS, A LOT OF TERRAIN. WOW. AND WHERE WERE YOU STAYING? HOW DID IT WORK? YEAH, SO I COORDINATED HOUSING WITH WONDERFUL BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTERS. WE HAVE THIS GRASSROOT NETWORK THAT SUPPORTED PEOPLE AS THEY VOLUNTEERED AND KNOCKED ON DOORS FROM STATE TO STATE. SO I REACHED OUT TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE I KNOW, SOME PEOPLE I DIDN'T KNOW AND SAY, 'HEY, I'M A BERNIE SANDERS GUY. I'M COMING THROUGH.' PEOPLE WERE WELCOMING AND OPENING UP THEIR DOORS AND HOSPITALITY TO ME AS I WENT THROUGH TO PHILADELPHIA. AND DID BERNIE SANDERS GET YOU INTO POLITICS? WERE YOU POLITICAL BEFORE THIS? I WOULD VOTE IN ELECTIONS, INCLUDING MID-TERMS AND GENERAL ELECTIONS. I WAS A LITTLE BIT INVOLVED IN THE JOHN EDWARDS CAMPAIGN BACK IN '08 AND OBAMA, BUT NOTHING LIKE THIS. BERNIE SANDERS IS A GUY WHO HAS SO MUCH POLITICAL AND PERSONAL INTEGRITY AND AUTHENTICITY, AND WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT A MESSAGE ABOUT HAVING THE ECONOMY, YOU KNOW, WORK AGAIN FOR THE PEOPLE AND NOT JUST THE 1%, AND HE'S STOOD BY HIS IDEALS HIS WHOLE CAREER, YOU CAN'T HELP BUT WANT TO LISTEN TO THAT AND HELP FIGHT FOR THAT MESSAGE. IN A TIME WHEN INCOME INEQUALITY IS SO HIGH, IN A TIME WHEN PEOPLE ARE COMING INTO OUR SOCIETY AND HAVING A HARD TIME MAKING ENDS MEET, I FELT IT WAS THE LEAST I COULD DO FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE VULNERABLE FOR ME, MYSELF. OK, SO, HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU GOT HERE, AND OBVIOUSLY BERNIE SANDERS SO SYMBOLICALLY PUTS HIS SUPPORT BEHIND HILLARY CLINTON? DID YOU FEEL BETRAYED, LIKE A LOT OF YOUR FELLOW SUPPORTERS DID? I DIDN'T FEEL BETRAYED. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT FEELING. A LOT OF PEOPLE PUT A LOT OF HARD WORK AND TIME. PERSONALLY, I RAN ACROSS THE COUNTRY THROUGH VERY HARD TIMES. I HAD SOME INJURIES, AND IT WASN'T EASY. THIS WAS ONE OF THE TOUGHEST THINGS I'VE DONE IN MY LIFE, MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY. BUT IT DIDN'T DISMISS THE FACT OF HOW FAR WE'RE COME, HOW FAR THIS POLITICAL REVOLUTION HAS COME, ALL THE PROGRESS WE MADE ON DRAFTING THE MOST PROGRESSIVE POLITICAL PLATFORM. FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WE HAVE $15 MINIMUM WAGE IS WHAT WE'RE CALLING FOR. YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE THAT THAT WERE JUST UNHEARD OF A FEW YEARS AGO. SO WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO IN OUR COUNTRY, BUT WE'VE COME A LONG WAY. AND THE BERNIE SANDERS MOVEMENT CAME FROM ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT NINE MONTHS ALL THE WAY TO ALMOST TAKING ON THE ESTABLISHMENT AND WINNING THE PRESIDENCY. YEAH. SO, WHERE TO FROM HERE FOR THE BERNIE SANDERS MOVEMENT? WHERE DO YOU SEE IT GOING? I SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE WILLING TO STAY INVOLVED LOCALLY, AND THAT'S REALLY HOW WE'RE GOING TO KEEP ON ENACTING CHANGE. WE HAVE TO STAY INVOLVED, YOU KNOW, RUN FOR OFFICE IN OUR LOCAL ELECTIONS, BE VOCAL. AS DEMOCRATS, DO YOU THINK IT WILL STAY WITHIN THE DEMOCRATS, THE BERNIE SANDERS MOVEMENT? I THINK THERE WILL BE A LOT OF IT THAT STAYS WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF US THAT REALISE SOMETIMES WHEN WE'RE TO ENACT CHANGE THAT YOU WANT, YOU HAVE TO WORK WITHIN THE SYSTEM TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM. THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO BE WORKING FROM OUTSIDE THE PARTY NOW, AND THERE'S PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST WORKING ON SPECIFIC ISSUES WITHOUT ANY PARTY AFFILIATION. AND I THINK THOSE ARE ALL IMPORTANT THINGS AND FIGHTS THAT WE NEED ALL ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM. WHAT SORT OF CHANGE DO YOU THINK AMERICA NEEDS TO FIX THIS BROKEN SYSTEM? WHAT SORT OF CHANGE DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK AMERICA NEEDS? PERSONALLY, WE NEED TO GET THE BIG MONEY OUT OF POLITICS. UNTIL OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM AND OUR ECONOMY STOP BEING CONTROLLED BY MAJOR CORPORATIONS, BY THE WEALTHY ELITE, THERE'S REALLY NO HOPE FOR A FAIR VOICE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE EXPRESSING WHAT THEY WANT AND ACTION TAKING ON THAT WILL. SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK GETTING THE BIG MONEY OUT OF POLITICS. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A RANKED VOTING SYSTEM SO THAT` PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION? EXACTLY. PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION SO THAT ANY IDEAS THAT PEOPLE HAVE ARE REPRESENTED EQUALLY IN OUR GOVERNMENT. AND ON THE TPP, YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY ANTI TPP. EVERYONE IN THE BERNIE SANDERS MOVEMENT IS. BERNIE SANDERS SAID HE WILL FIGHT TO STOP THAT GETTING OFF THE CONGRESS FLOOR IN A LAME-DUCK SESSION. YOU'D OBVIOUSLY PUT YOUR SUPPORT BEHIND THAT AS WELL. THE WHOLE MOVEMENT WILL, I SUPPOSE. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, AND THAT'S JUST LIKE I'M TALKING ABOUT. WE NEED TO FIGHT AGAINST THESE BILLS AND THESE POLICIES THAT REWARD THE 1% AND THE MAJOR CORPORATIONS, AND THE TPP IS JUST THAT. IT'S NOT JUST A FREE-TRADE DEAL. WHAT IT REALLY IS IS A CORPORATE BILL OF RIGHTS. IS THAT THE NEXT FIGHT FOR THE BERNIE SANDERS MOVEMENT? MAKING SURE` BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S PRETTY MUCH FINISHED. IS THAT THE NEXT FIGHT FOR YOU AND THE BERNIE SANDERS MOVEMENT? IT'S FOR THE BERNIE SANDERS MOVEMENT, IT'S FOR ME, AND I HOPE IT IS FOR A BUNCH OF OTHER BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTERS. I HOPE WE FOCUS ALL THIS ENERGY THAT WE HAVE IN` IN PROTESTING, YOU KNOW, THE` THE` THE ELECTION PROCESS ` THAT MAYBE SOME OF US FEEL LIKE THERE WAS MAYBE SOME FRAUD GOING ON THERE AS WELL. I HOPE WE FOCUS ALL OF THAT ENERGY INTO FIGHTING AGAINST THIS TPP, BECAUSE THE TPP, REALLY, IT GIVES CORPORATIONS A FREE REIN OVER OUR LAWS. WILL YOU GUYS STOP IT? WILL YOU GUYS STOP THE TPP? MY PLAN IS YES. I HOPE WE DO. I THINK WE CAN, BUT WE HAVE TO STAY ORGANISED, WE HAVE TO STAY UNITED IN FIGHTING AGAINST IT, AND WE HAVE TO DO WHATEVER WE CAN. WELL, DOUGLAS SMITH IS A FORMER SECURITY OF HOMELAND SECURITY IN THE UNITED STATES AND A FORMER AID TO BILL CLINTON. PATRICK GOWER SPOKE TO HIM ABOUT THE EMAIL SCANDALS SWIRLING AROUND THE CONFERENCE. WELL, DOUGLAS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND THANK YOU FOR COMING ON NZ TELEVISION. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME. IT'S JUST A FABULOUS COUNTRY, WHICH I ACTUALLY TRAVELLED TO IN 1999 WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON, WHERE I DID MY FIRST AND ONLY BUNGEE JUMP. BUT WHAT A PLACE TO DO IT. NOW, HILLARY CLINTON'S SIDE HAS ACCUSED RUSSIA OF TAKING EMAILS OUT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY MACHINE. IS THAT REALISTIC? BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN NZ LOOK AT IT LIKE A CONSPIRACY THEORY. IS IT REALISTIC IN YOUR MIND? UNFORTUNATELY, VERY REALISTIC. BOTH RUSSIA AND CHINA HAVE INCREDIBLY AGGRESSIVE HACKING OPERATIONS, AND THE THOUGHT THAT THEY HACKED THE DNC ` COMPLETELY REALISTIC IN MY MIND. YEAH, WELL, YOU DID WORK IN THE HOMELAND SECURITY AREA. YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS SORT OF THING, I TAKE IT? ABSOLUTELY. THEY ARE INCREDIBLY SOPHISTICATED HACKERS. THEY HACK INTERNATIONAL SECRETS, WHETHER IT BE THE AUSTRALIANS, THE NZERS, THE UNITED STATES. THE THOUGHT THAT THEY WOULD HACK INTO A PRIVATE ENTERPRISE ` TOTALLY BELIEVABLE. TURNING NOW TO THE TRANS-PACIFIC PARTNERSHIP, DONALD TRUMP IS AGAINST THAT, BUT ALSO WE'VE SEEN THAT EVERY MEMBER OF THE SENIOR DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP EXCEPT FOR BARACK OBAMA IS PRETTY MUCH AGAINST IT. IT LOOKS LIKE THE TPP HAS BURNED UP ON THE POLITICAL FIRE THAT IS RAGING HERE. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT? I THINK THE CHALLENGE WITH TALKING ABOUT TRADE IS VERY COMPLICATED. PEOPLE UNDERSTAND TAXES TO IMPROVE SCHOOLS, TO BUILD BETTER ROADS. TALKING ABOUT INTERNATIONAL TRADE PACTS IS A VERY, VERY CHALLENGING THING. WHEN I WORKED ON NAFTA WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON, IT WAS A TOUGH STORY TO SELL. AND I THINK AGAINST THIS VERY CAUSTIC CLIMATE, YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT. FOR THE SHORT TERM, HAS IT BEEN PUSHED TO THE BACKBURNER? YEP, MOST LIKELY. BUT THE REALITY IS THE REPUBLICAN-LED CONGRESS IN THIS COUNTRY IS VOTING ON NOTHING, LET ALONE A COMPLICATE INTERNATIONAL TRADE PACT. YOU DON'T THINK IT WILL GET OFF THE FLOOR OF THE CONGRESS, EVEN IN THE LAME-DUCK PERIOD, THE TPP? I'D BE HIGHLY SHOCKED. THEY CAN'T GET SIMPLER THINGS LIKE NAMING A POST OFFICE OFF THE FLOOR, LET ALONE SOMETHING LIKE THIS. I MEAN, THE IMPORTANT WORK SUCH AS BARACK OBAMA'S APPOINTEE TO THE SUPREME COURT WHO WON'T EVEN GET A HEARING, WHICH IS VERY SIMPLE AND A VERY BLACK AND WHITE ISSUE, THEY CAN'T EVEN ACT ON THAT. SO THE NOTION THAT THE REPUBLICANS WOULD LEAN FORWARD AND TRY TO TALK ABOUT AN ISSUE THAT TAKES SOME EXPLAINING ` FOREIGN TRADE ISSUES ARE DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND ` I JUST DON'T SEE IT HAPPENING. YEAH. YOU DON'T SEE IT GETTING PAST IN THE LAME-DUCK PERIOD? YOU DON'T SEE THE TPP MOVING? I DON'T, BUT MOSTLY JUST BECAUSE I DON'T SEE THEM MOVING ANYTHING. ON THAT, DO YOU THINK HILLARY CLINTON IS PRO TRADE? DO YOU THINK SHE'S PRO TPP BUT SHE CAN'T DO IT IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT WE SEE NOW, THIS SORT OF POLITICAL WARFARE? I THINK FIRST AND FOREMOST WHAT HILLARY CLINTON IS IS A BELIEVER IN GLOBAL ENGAGEMENT, AND SHE UNDERSTANDS THE WORLD WE LIVE IN. WHEN I WAS AT HOMELAND SECURITY, I WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH HER, PARTICULARLY AROUND ISSUES OF TRAVEL AND TOURISM. WITH THE INVENTION OF THE AIRCRAFT, WITH THE INTERNET, WE ARE ALL JUST A CLICK AWAY FROM SO MANY THINGS, AND I THINK SHE UNDERSTANDS THAT IS THE GLOBAL ENVIRONMENT WE LIVE IN. WE CAN'T LIVE IN ISOLATED SILOS, AND I THINK WHEN SHE BECOMES PRESIDENT, ONE OF HER FIRST THINGS TO DO IS BETTER EXPLAIN THE IMPORTANCE OF GLOBAL ENGAGEMENT. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE STATE IN THE UNITED STATES EXPORTS OVERSEAS. FOREIGN TRADE IS CRITICAL TO THE STRENGTH OF THE US ECONOMY. SO MY QUESTION IS ` DO YOU THINK SHE CAN'T DO THAT NOW IN WHAT'S HAPPENING, THE KIND OF DEBATE THAT IS HAPPENING HERE? DO YOU THINK SHE CAN'T HAVE THAT ROLE NOW? SHE HAS TO LEAVE THAT? I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S AS MUCH AS SHE CAN OR CANNOT. SHE DOESN'T REALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO IT. I MEAN, PRESIDENT OBAMA IS THE PRESIDENT, AND IT'S HIS JOB TO PUSH THAT THROUGH AT THE MOMENT. SHE IS A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT. SHE ISN'T HOLDING AN ELECTED OFFICE, AND THERE'S NO WAY THAT THIS CONGRESS IS GOING TO TRY TO DO ANYTHING TO GIVE HER ASSISTANCE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. THEY'D RATHER JUST SIT ON THEIR HANDS AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE ELECTION. SO I THINK UNFORTUNATELY, FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD, WE'RE IN A BIT OF A HOLDING PATTERN UNTIL THE DUST OF THIS ELECTION CYCLE SETTLES DOWN. AND WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS, WHEN WE LOOK DOWN HERE, TO NZERS, THE POLITICAL SCENE HERE IS JUST SO DIFFERENT. IT'S MAD, IT'S CRAZY. YEAH. I THINK IT'S CRAZIER THAN I EVER REMEMBER, BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF ALL THE NEW THINGS OUT THERE. SOCIAL MEDIA ` YOU KNOW, IN 140 CHARACTERS ON TWITTER WHAT I COULD SAY; I COULD POST IT UP ON INSTAGRAM; I COULD PERISCOPING RIGHT NOW AS I TALK TO YOU AND STREAM AROUND THE WORLD. INFORMATION JUST GOES SO QUICKLY THAT ALL IT TAKES IS ONE SILLY THING FOR A CANDIDATE TO SAY AND IT EXPLODES THE WORLD OVER. IT'S FASCINATING TO ME. AS A YOUNG MAN, I LIVED IN ENGLAND AND BECAME VERY KEEN WATCHING THE ENGLISH POLITICAL SYSTEM. WHAT JUST HAPPENED THERE? THIS CATASTROPHIC VOTE HAPPENED. WITHIN A WEEK, THE PRIME MINISTER RESIGNS; NEW PRIME MINISTER IN. AS AN AMERICAN, OH MY GOD, IT'S JUST SHOCKING WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE. THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON NOW FOR TWO YEARS, AND WE STILL HAVE 100 MORE DAYS UNTIL THE ELECTION, AND IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET UGLIER, MY BELIEF, BEFORE NOVEMBER HAPPENS. RIGHT, THAT'S A VERY GOOD PLACE TO LEAVE IT. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, DOUGLAS. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. WELL, AFTER THE BREAK, THE ABC'S ANTONY GREEN ON ONLINE VOTING, WHY POLLS SOMETIMES GET IT WRONG AND WHO HE THINKS WILL WIN OUR ELECTION NEXT YEAR. AND LATER, OUR PANEL, FRAN O'SULLIVAN, BERNARD HICKEY AND SIMON WILSON. BUT FIRST, PAUL EGO'S BACK AT THE DESK WITH JEREMY CORBETT FOR THEIR TAKE ON THE POLITICAL WEEK. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE DNC? OH, THE OLD 'DON'T ANNOY CHINA'? THE TODD MCCLAY THING? NO, THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONFERENCE, PAUL. OH, THAT. YES. OH, IT WAS GOOD. I THOUGHT THE BEST SPEECHES WERE BY THE FIRST LADY, OBVIOUSLY, AND BY THAT GUY WHO COULD VERY WELL BE THE FIRST FIRST GENTLEMAN. TRUE. IT COULD BE HILLARY'S TURN IN THE OVAL OFFICE. YES. WELL, THAT'S THE CLINTON WAY, ISN'T IT? 'IN TURNS'. AND A LOT OF PEOPLE BOOING BERNIE SANDERS, OF COURSE. YEAH, WHY IS THAT? BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT HIM, PAUL. IT'S VERY SIMPLE. MEANWHILE, BACK IN NZ, CONSERVATION MINISTER MAGGIE BARRY WANTS TO ERADICATE ALL PREDATORS BY 2050. (CHUCKLES) 2050? GOD. I KNOW. SAYING THAT, I CAN ACTUALLY IMAGINE HER FINISHING OFF THE LAST STOAT WHEN SHE'S 91. YEAH, A LITTLE BIT OF HOLLANDAISE ON THE TOP. MMM. TASTY. WINSTON PETERS DOESN'T BELIEVE WE CAN BE PREDATOR-FREE BY 2050. WHICH IS WEIRD, COS THE PREDATORS DON'T BELIEVE WE CAN BE WINSTON-FREE BY 2050. BUT TRAPS, BAIT STATIONS, AERIAL SPRAYING ` THEY RECKON WE CAN DO IT. NAH, HE'LL JUST HIDE IN A PUB. PROBABLY WILL. THE PROPOSED AUCKLAND UNITARY PLAN CAME OUT ON WEDNESDAY, AND IT IS CALLING FOR MORE DENSITY. WHICH IS IRONIC, BECAUSE IT'S THE COUNCIL BEING SO DENSE THAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS. AND FINALLY, MAURICE WILLIAMSON NOT SEEKING RE-ELECTION NEXT YEAR. RIGHT NOW, HE'LL BE SEEING A BIG, GREY RETIREMENT RAINBOW, WON'T HE? IT'S SO GOOD THEY LEGALISED RETIREMENT, ISN'T IT? IS IT? BUT ONLY JUST. TWO OF THE LAST THREE FEDERAL ELECTIONS HAVE BEEN TIGHT RACES, WITH 2010 ENDING IN A HUNG PARLIAMENT. AND AN INCREASING NUMBER OF AUSTRALIANS ARE VOTING FOR MINOR PARTIES. I SPOKE EARLIER TO THE ABC'S ELECTION ANALYST, ANTONY GREEN, AND BEGAN BY ASKING HIM IF THAT'S BECOMING A TREND. THIS IS THE SECOND OF THE LAST THREE ELECTIONS WHICH HAS BEEN EXTREMELY CLOSE. I THINK IT'S JUST A FLUKE WE HAVEN'T HAD MANY REALLY CLOSE ELECTIONS FOR A LONG TIME. I THINK WE JUST HAD A PERIOD WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF CONTEST IN THE PARTY CONTEST. WE'VE ALSO SEEN AN INCREASE IN VOTE FOR OTHERS, AND UNDER OUR PREFERENTIAL SYSTEM, THAT ALL COUNTS IN THROUGH PREFERENTIAL VOTING INTO PRODUCING TIGHT CONTESTS AND REQUIRES ALL THESE EXTRA COUNTS. IN TERMS OF THAT VOTING FOR OTHERS, SO MORE PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING MINOR PARTIES IN THEIR FIRST PREFERENCE, RIGHT? BUT DOES THAT SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE ARE KIND OF SICK OF THE STATUS QUO? IS IT KIND OF GOING A REFLECTION OF A GLOBAL MOOD ` YOU THINK OF TRUMP, YOU THINK OF BREXIT? SOME OF IT'S A CONTINUATION OF THE RISE OF THE GREENS. THEY GET ABOUT 10% OF THE VOTE. THERE'S ANOTHER 13% WITH OTHERS. SOME OF THAT HAS GONE TO A COUPLE OF THE SMALL CHRISTIAN PARTIES WHO TRADITIONALLY GET 3% TO 4% OF THE VOTE. THEY HAVE THEIR PARTICULAR ISSUES IN THAT STATE. AND THEN THE RE-EMERGENCE OF PAULINE HANSON AND THE SORT OF ANTI-POLITICS ` CONCERN ABOUT IMMIGRATION, THOSE SORTS OF ISSUES WHICH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE. I THINK THE POLITICAL INSTABILITY WE'VE HAD IN RECENT YEARS WHERE THIS IS THE THIRD ELECTION IN A ROW WHERE THE PRIME MINISTER WHO CALLED THE ELECTION WAS NOT THE PRIME MINISTER AT THE START OF THE TERM. I THINK THAT SOME VOTERS MIGHT'VE GOT SLIGHTLY SICK OF ALL THIS AS WELL AND THINK, 'WHAT'S THE POINT OF VOTING? YOU JUST END UP WITH SOMEBODY ELSE AT THE END OF THE TERM.' YOU HAVE COMPULSORY VOTING IN AUSTRALIA, AND I THINK YOU HAD ABOUT A 95% TURNOUT. WE HAVEN'T HAD A TURNOUT IN THE 90S FOR 35 YEARS IN NZ, AND WE TALK ABOUT WHAT'S CALLED THE MISSING MILLION ` YOU KNOW, A MILLION VOTERS WHO DON'T TURN UP. IS IT TIME FOR COMPULSION HERE, OR DOES THAT ACTUALLY FLY IN THE FACE OF DEMOCRACY, < COMPELLING PEOPLE TO VOTE? IT'S ONE OF THOSE ODDITIES. PEOPLE FOUGHT FOR THE RIGHT TO VOTE. IN AUSTRALIA, YOU GET FINED IF YOU DON'T VOTE. IT'S A LONG-STANDING INSTITUTION. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NEARLY A HUNDRED YEARS IT'S BEEN USED IN AUSTRALIA. I THINK AUSTRALIANS ARE VERY MUCH 'DON'T OBJECTORS'. I THINK AMERICANS AND THE BRITISH WOULD OBJECT TO THIS GREATLY, BUT IN AUSTRALIA, IT'S SORT OF A SHRUG OF THE SHOULDERS, AND IT'S PROBABLY FOR THE COMMON GOOD. AND I SUSPECT IF YOU DID IT IN NZ, YOU'D GET SORT OF THE SAME ATTITUDE. I THINK AUSTRALIANS AND NZERS ARE RATHER SIMILAR IN THINKING ABOUT THOSE SORTS OF THINGS IN THAT WAY. IT DOES HAVE AN IMPACT ON POLITICS, THOUGH. THERE ARE PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM END OF THE INVOLVEMENT IN SOCIETY WHO WILL VOTE. IF YOU LOOK AT MOST COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, VOTING TENDS TO BE HEAVILY DOMINATED BY OLDER VOTERS, IT TENDS TO BE DOMINATED BY MORE WELL-OFF VOTERS, AND THE VOTERS WHO DON'T VOTE UNDER VOLUNTARY VOTING TEND TO BE YOUNGER VOTERS, TEND TO BE THOSE LESS ENGAGED, LESS WELL OFF. IN AUSTRALIA, ALL THOSE PEOPLE VOTE, AND IT'S AN ARGUMENT ABOUT COMPULSORY VOTING IN AUSTRALIA THAT ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES IS AUSTRALIA HAS ONE OF THE MOST REDISTRIBUTED OF WELFARE SYSTEMS ` THAT THE WELFARE WE DO SPEND IS HEAVILY DIRECTED TO THOSE WHO ARE MOST LIKELY TO NEED IT. AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THAT'S VIEWED THAT WAY IS UNDER OUR SYSTEM, ALL THOSE PEOPLE WILL VOTE. SO WE HAD A DEBATE ABOUT THE GST RECENTLY, AND BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE TO COMPENSATE PEOPLE AND EVERYBODY VOTES IN AUSTRALIA, THE GST RAISE DIDN'T SEEM TO COME IN AS WORTHWHILE DOING. SO IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF POLICIES THAT AFFECT PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDERPRIVILEGED OR STRUGGLING IN THOSE CIRCLES THAT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY ALWAYS VOTE? YES, IT'S VIEWED AS BEING... IN MANY COUNTRIES, THE SORT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY CHANGES IN GOVERNMENT POLICY FOR WELFARE AND THE LIKE ARE OFTEN PEOPLE WHO DON'T VOTE. AND IN AUSTRALIA, THOSE PEOPLE VOTE, SO THERE'S A HUGE PUSHING TOWARDS THE MIDDLE OF POLITICS. DO YOU FAVOUR EITHER? I THINK IT WORKS WELL IN AUSTRALIA. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW IT WORKS IN ANOTHER COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE ARE FAR` I THINK AUSTRALIANS ARE, AND TO AN EXTENT IN NZERS AS WELL, MUCH MORE FORGIVING OF GOVERNMENT. THEY DON'T VIEW GOVERNMENT AS AN ENEMY LIKE THEY DO IN AMERICA. GOVERNMENT'S PART OF THE PROCESS OF RUNNING THE COUNTRY FOR MOST AUSTRALIANS, AND I THINK NZERS, AND THEREFORE GETTING INVOLVED AND ENSURING WE ALL VOTE IS SEEN AS SOMETHING WHICH IS FOR THE COMMON GOOD. THREE-QUARTERS TO TWO-THIRDS OF AUSTRALIANS STILL SUPPORT COMPULSORY VOTING. THE FINE IS QUITE LIMITED. YOU PAY ABOUT A $20 OR $50 FINE. IT'S EASIER TO VOTE THAN DEAL WITH THE FINE, THOUGH, IN AUSTRALIA. WHAT DIFFERENCE DO YOU THINK ELECTRONIC VOTING WOULD MAKE TO PARTICIPATION? NOT A LOT, REALLY. THERE'S LOTS OF THINGS TO TALK ABOUT WITH ELECTRONIC VOTING. DO YOU MEAN WOULD YOU HAVE ELECTRONIC VOTING AS IN-ATTENDANCE VOTING OR AS INTERNET VOTING? I STILL SUPPORT ATTENDANCE VOTING, SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE DOING SOME FORM OF ELECTRONIC VOTING, YOU TURN UP AT A PLACE TO DO IT. I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH WIDESPREAD I-VOTING WHERE PEOPLE DO IT FROM HOME. WHAT ARE THE ISSUES WITH THAT? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE PERCEPTION IS` I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT SOME PEOPLE THESE DAYS WHO WON'T BUY STUFF ON THE INTERNET BECAUSE THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THAT. AND THERE IS A STRONG PERCEPTION THAT THERE ARE RISKS OF HACKING, THAT YOUR VOTE'S NOT GOING TO BE SECRET. PEOPLE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT IT. THAT'S SOME CONCERNS. BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, PEOPLE WOULD SAY, 'I CAN SIT AT HOME AND DO MY BANKING FROM HOME. I CAN BUY THINGS OVERSEAS FROM HOME. 'WHY CAN'T I VOTE FROM HOME?' WELL, THE ONE ANSWER TO THAT IS IF YOU RUN BANKING OR OVERSEAS PURCHASES, THERE IS FRAUD THAT TAKES PLACE, AND AS LONG AS THEY LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF FRAUD, HAVING WIDESPREAD ACCESS TO INTERNET BANKING OR INTERNET PURCHASES IS STILL ADVANTAGEOUS. WHEN YOU COME TO ELECTIONS, YOU CAN'T ALLOW ANY LEVEL OF FRAUD, WHICH MEANS IT'S MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE TO DRIVE DOWN THE LEVEL OF ANY FRAUD. IF YOU RUN A BUSINESS, YOU'LL ACCEPT 1% FRAUD, BECAUSE TO GET RID OF THAT 1% IS TOO EXPENSIVE. SO ARE YOU SAYING, THEN, IT'S GOT LIMITED APPLICATION? I THINK IT'S GOT LIMITED APPLICATION. IT'S BEEN USED IN SOME AUSTRALIAN STATES BASICALLY AS A REPLACEMENT FOR POSTAL VOTING. YOU COULD USE IT AS A REPLACEMENT FOR OVERSEAS VOTING. BUT IT REALLY ONLY HAS LIMITED USE IN THAT AREA. JUST BEFORE WE GO, AND WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLL ACCURACY, BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN RECENT CASES WHERE THE NUMBERS ARE JUST WRONG, WRONG, WRONG ` YOU KNOW, THE EU VOTE, BRITISH ELECTIONS. WHAT'S GOING ON? HOW RELIABLE ARE THEY? WELL, IT VARIES FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY. AUSTRALIAN POLLS ARE STILL ACCURATE. WE HAVE COMPULSORY VOTING, THEREFORE YOUR RANDOM SAMPLING OF THE POPULATION IS ALSO A RANDOM SAMPLING OF THE ELECTORATE. IN MOST OTHER COUNTRIES, THE PROBLEM THEY CONSTANTLY HAVE IS ` HAVE WE GOT A DECENT SAMPLE OF THE VOTING ELECTORATE? AND YOU CAN MAKE RANDOM PHONE CALLS, YOU CAN DO ALL SORTS OF THINGS, BUT IN THE END, YOU'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT IF THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO VOTE. YOU CAN INTERVIEW THEM ` ARE THEY GOING TO VOTE? ` AND THAT'S ONE OF THE COMPLICATIONS. POLLS IN NZ ARE LESS ACCURATE BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE COMPULSORY VOTING. WE CAN'T GUARANTEE THAT THAT PERSON WILL TURN UP AND ACTUALLY TICK A BOX. THAT'S RIGHT, BUT YOU STILL DO HAVE A RELATIVELY HIGH TURNOUT LEVEL. IN BRITAIN, THEY HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM WITH WHICH PARTS OF THE COUNTRY ARE YOU LOOKING AT AND TRYING TO GET A DECENT REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE IN SUCH A REGIONAL COUNTRY. I THINK NZ'S TRADITIONALLY HAD A RELATIVELY GOOD RECORD WITH POLLING, BUT YOU'RE ALSO RUNNING WITH MMP ON A NATIONAL VOTE. IT'S WHAT'S THE NATIONAL VOTE? LET'S JUST GET THE NATIONAL VOTE RIGHT. IF YOU'RE A PERCENT OR TWO OUT ON ONE PARTY'S VOTE, WELL, OUR PRIME MINISTER HAS ALSO SAID THAT HE THINKS THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY DECIDE MUCH EARLIER THAN WE THINK ABOUT WHO THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE FOR. IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT HE'S RIGHT ABOUT THAT? I THINK HE'S RIGHT. I MEAN, ALL THE ACADEMIC RESEARCH TENDS TO POINT TO THE FACT ` I CERTAINLY KNOW THE AUSTRALIAN RESEARCH, WHICH I'M MOST FAMILIAR WITH ` MOST PEOPLE VOTE FOR THE SAME PARTY FOR MOST OF THEIR LIFE. PEOPLE DON'T SWITCH BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS BETWEEN PARTIES. ONLY A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE DO THAT. MOST PEOPLE ` PROBABLY HALF THE ELECTORATE ` PROBABLY VOTED FOR THE SAME PARTY ALL THEIR LIFE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. SOME PEOPLE WILL MOSTLY VOTE FOR ONE PARTY, OCCASIONALLY FOR THE OTHER SIDE. AND MOST PEOPLE, WHEN THEY GO INTO AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, MODERN CAMPAIGNING IS NOT ABOUT WINNING THE CAMPAIGN AND CHANGING VOTES. AT THE START OF THE CAMPAIGN, THIS IS YOUR LEVEL OF VOTES; IT'S ABOUT MAINTAINING YOUR VOTES. SO HOW FAR OUT WOULD A POLL BE ACCURATE, THEN, IN YOUR VIEW FOR WHAT THE FINAL OUTCOME OF AN ELECTION WOULD BE? I THINK MOST POLLS TEND TO BE PRETTY ACCURATE. ONCE YOU GET INTO THE CAMPAIGN AND PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT HOW THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE IN THREE WEEKS' TIME RATHER THAN SIX MONTHS OR EIGHT MONTHS, YOU START TO GET A BETTER MEASURE. WHEN YOU GET CHANGES OF LEADERSHIP, SOMETIMES YOU CAN GET AN IMPACT ON VOTING WHICH MAY NOT BE LONG LASTING. WHEN MALCOLM TURNBULL BECAME PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA, HE HAD ASTRONOMICAL RATINGS, WHICH WERE PROBABLY NEVER GOING TO MAINTAIN, AND THEY SORT OF CAME DOWN, CALMED DOWN OVER SEVERAL MONTHS TILL THE ELECTION. SO A POLL NOW, HOW REFLECTIVE WOULD THAT BE OF THE FINAL RESULT IN THE ELECTION NEXT YEAR? IN NZ, IT'S PROBABLY RELATIVELY REFLECTIVE. IF YOU'VE GOT ONE PARTY SUBSTANTIALLY AHEAD OF THE OTHER, THAT'S PROBABLY REFLECTING WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT YEAR. BUT, OF COURSE, EVENTS CAN ALWAYS AFFECT THESE THINGS. IF SOMETHING DRAMATIC HAPPENS WHICH CHANGES THE PARTY NATION OF THE CONTEST, THE CONTENT OF THE CONTEST, THEN, OF COURSE, THAT CAN HAVE AN IMPACT. BUT, I MEAN, AS AN OUTSIDER, I HAVE TO SAY JOHN KEY APPEARS TO BE ENORMOUSLY POPULAR, AND THAT POPULARITY CONTINUES TO BE THE STRONG POINT FOR THE NATIONAL VOTE. WELL, WE'LL BE WATCHING THE NUMBERS. ANTONY GREEN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. THANK YOU. LOTS TO TALK ABOUT AFTER THE BREAK WITH OUR PANEL ` HIVE NEWS PUBLISHER BERNARD HICKEY, FRAN O'SULLIVAN FROM NZME AND METRO MAGAZINE'S EDITOR-AT-LARGE, SIMON WILSON. WELCOME BACK. WE'RE BACK WITH OUR PANEL ` FRAN O'SULLIVAN, BERNARD HICKEY AND SIMON WILSON. THANKS FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING. HOUSING ` ALWAYS A BIG ISSUE, AND NOW WE'VE GOT` THIS PLAN'S BEEN MADE PUBLIC. IS IT REALLY AS DIVISIVE AS SOME PEOPLE SAY IT IS, BERNARD? WELL, WE'RE ALREADY SEEING THE REACTION FROM THE EASTERN SUBURBS AND THE NORTH SHORE ` THREATS OF LEGAL ACTION. TRUE. > AND THE SAME PEOPLE WHO REVOLVED IN FEBRUARY, WHICH LED TO THE COUNCIL VOTING 13-8 TO REMOVE THE INTENSIFICATION, THE SAME TACTICS, THE SAME PEOPLE ARE COMING UP AGAIN. SO WE ARE IN FOR AN ALMIGHTY FIGHT OVER THE NEXT TWO TO THREE WEEKS TO SEE WHETHER THIS UNITARY PLAN ACTUALLY GETS THROUGH. SIMON, DO YOU AGREE? I MEAN, THE SPINOFF HAS LAUNCHED A CAMPAIGN. IT'S CALLED 'THE WAR FOR AUCKLAND'. YES, A LITTLE TABLOID TOUCH THERE, ISN'T IT? (LAUGHS) BUT TRUE OR NOT? WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A WAR. I THINK WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS THAT IT IS LIKELY THAT THE PLAN WILL BE INTRODUCED` WILL BE PASSED BY THE COUNCIL, BUT EVERY COUNCILLOR, PARTICULARLY ALL THOSE WHO ARE STANDING AGAIN, IS GOING TO FIND A WAY TO TAKE A STAND AND SAY, 'WELL, I'M GOING TO VOTE YES, BUT THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT CONCERN ME,' AND THAT'S QUITE LEGITIMATE. THE UNITARY PLAN HEARINGS PANEL ITSELF SAID, 'HERE'S WHAT WE THINK SHOULD HAPPEN. 'THERE ARE SOME OTHER THINGS THAT WE KNOW YOU WILL LOOK AT AND PLAN CHANGES. 'AND YOU CAN DO IT IN THAT WAY, AND THAT WILL BE AN EFFICIENT WAY TO DO IT.' BUT OVERALL I THINK THE MAIN THING WILL PASS. THE THING IS, FRAN, THIS IS INTERESTING POLITICS, ISN'T IT? YOU'VE GOT THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT WHO WANTS ACTION, YET A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN ITS CONSTITUENCY ARE THE ONES WHO DO NOT LIKE THIS PLAN, AND YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE COUNCILS` COUNCILLORS WHO HAVE TO PUT THEIR CARDS ON THE TABLE BEFORE THE LOCAL ELECTION TOO. YES, INDEED AND WILL CHALLENGE THEM, AND THEY'VE REALLY GOT TO PICK IT UP AND RUN WITH IT. I MEAN, YOU CAN TALK ABOUT A WAR FOR AUCKLAND; THIS HAS BEEN A VERY LONG SIEGE THAT'S ALREADY BEEN GOING ON ABOUT FIVE YEARS WITH, YOU KNOW, BREAKNECK GROWTH COMING FROM IMMIGRATION AND NOTHING BEING DONE ABOUT IT. NOW` AND THE FLOODGATES ARE STILL OPEN. SOME OF THESE WONDERFUL NEW APARTMENTS WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE ` JUST GO ONLINE AND SEE WHERE THEY'VE BEEN MARKETED. AND THE ADVANTAGES THAT HAVE BEEN MARKETED IS A WELCOMING ENVIRONMENT FOR FOREIGN INVESTMENT ` IS VERY LITTLE TAX, CAPITAL GROWTH, ALL THE REST. SO THE EXTERNAL PRESSURE'S GOING TO COME AND COME AND COME, AND SO WE'VE GOT TO MAKE A DECISION. WE EITHER EMBRACE IT AND BUILD FOR IT, OR WE DON'T. AND IF WE DON'T, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? MM. I THINK THE THING ` SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT CAME OUT OF THAT DISCUSSION WE HAD THIS MORNING WAS ABOUT QUALITY, LEAVING THE MARKET TO DECIDE QUALITY, AND SOME DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO GET; WE'RE GOING TO GET FRIDGE BOXES AND CHARACTER LOFTS AND GROTTY` RIGHT, NOW, I THOUGHT WHAT ASHLEY CHURCH FROM THE PROPERTY COUNCIL SAID ` THAT THE ONLY RULES ARE GOING TO BE WHAT THE MARKET DECIDES ` I THOUGHT THAT WAS GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE BECAUSE IT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE. NOW, THE UNITARY PLAN IS A SET OF RULES, BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT, WHAT THE HEARINGS PANEL HAVE SAID IS THAT THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER RULES THAT ARE ALREADY IN PLACE AND THEY DIDN'T SEE THE NEED FOR THE UNITARY PLAN TO REPEAT THEM. THE UNITARY PLAN REFERS TO THEM, SO THE` BUT HE'S RIGHT WHEN HE SAYS SIZE IS GONE; THERE'S NOT A MINIMUM SIZE FOR AN APARTMENT, NOT A MINIMUM SIZE FOR ROOMS. WELL, TOMMY HONEY GAVE YOU A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF WHY SIZE HAS BEEN A PROBLEM. WHERE ONE VILLA CAN BE REPLACED BY EIGHT GOOD APARTMENTS, THAT'S A VERY GOOD INDICATION OF THE THINKING THAT USED TO PREVAIL, WHICH WAS, 'OK, WE'VE GOT TO DICTATE ON SIZE' CAN BE VERY LIMITING. SINCE THE SHOEBOX APARTMENTS WERE BUILT ON NELSON ST AND OTHER PARTS OF TOWN, THE COUNCIL HAS DEVELOPED WITH A DESIGN COUNCIL` WITH A DESIGN PANEL A VERY VERY COMPREHENSIVE DESIGN MANUAL FOR THIS CITY. NOW, THE RULES THERE, THE GUIDELINES ARE THERE, AND THEY WORK VERY HARD WITH DEVELOPERS TO GET BETTER OUTCOMES. AND THOSE THINGS ARE NOT 100% HAPPENING THE WAY THEY OUGHT TO, BUT THEY ARE HAPPENING AN AWFUL LOT NOW. I THINK IT'S WORTH GETTING PAST THE WHOLE SHOEBOX APARTMENT THING, WHICH WAS IN THE '90S AND EARLY 2000S. A LOT OF THE APARTMENT DEVELOPERS NOW ARE DOING QUITE DIFFERENT THINGS WITH THE DESIGN MANUALS AND THE LIKE. AND THE APARTMENTS THAT I'VE SEEN, THERE'S SORTS OF THREE-STOREY APARTMENTS, WHICH ARE IN THE MIXED HOUSING URBAN. THAT'S WHERE REAL EXPANSION OF THE ZONING HAS HAPPENED. THOSE SORTS OF APARTMENTS CAN ACTUALLY BE` THEY CAN LOOK PRETTY GOOD, AND THEY CAN SELL FOR, YOU KNOW, A REASONABLE PRICE, NOT` BUT THAT'S THE THING, THOUGH. WE SAW THOSE PICTURES THAT TOMMY HONEY HAD, AND FLORA APULU SAID, YOU KNOW, 700,000, 800,000 ` THAT'S OUT OF A TON OF PEOPLE'S REACH. WELL, WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE APARTMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN BUILT, THE THREE-STOREY ONES, YOU CAN GET PRICES CLOSER TO THE 500, 600,000 MARK FOR ONE- AND TWO-BEDROOMED APARTMENTS IN THOSE` BUT EVEN THAT'S GOING TO BE TOO HIGH FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE. IT'S CLEARLY A CHALLENGE. IN THE CHEAPER PARTS OF TOWN, THE MORE AFFORDABLE PARTS OF TOWN, IT'S CLEARLY A CHALLENGE TO DEVELOP ON A BIG SCALE AFFORDABLE HOUSING. THAT'S STILL IN FRONT OF US. THE UNITARY PLAN DOESN'T MAKE IT HARDER. IT HELPS ENABLE IT. I THINK THE KEY POINT IS WE'VE HAD A SEISMIC SHIFT IN THE VALUATION OF AUCKLAND. AUCKLAND IS GOING TO BE EXPENSIVE FROM HERE ON IN, WHETHER IT'S A SMALL APARTMENT OR A BIG APARTMENT. THE DEFINITION OF WHAT IS AFFORDABLE WILL HAVE TO CHANGE IF THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SUBSIDISE OR BUILD FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING. GO BACK FIVE OR SIX YEARS, A ONE-BED APARTMENT, YOU COULD BUY A DECENT ONE FOR 150, 160,000. SUDDENLY, WE'RE SAYING, '400 OR 500,000? OH, THAT'S OK.' NO, IT'S NOT OK. IT'S RIDICULOUS. AND WE'VE GOT TO GET SOMETHING REASONABLE AND RATIONAL. GO AND DO A SEARCH IN THE US ` COST OF HOUSING THERE. DO A SEARCH IN PARTS OF AUSTRALIA ` FRINGES. AUCKLAND IS VERY UNAFFORDABLE RIGHT NOW. BUT DO YOU THINK BECAUSE THEY'VE TAKEN OUT THAT QUOTA FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING, CAN WE RELY ON THE MARKET WITH THE INCREASE`? < NO, I DON'T THINK WE CAN. FOR 400` BUT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 400,000 CAPACITY FOR MORE APARTMENTS` BUT IT'S STILL` YOU KNOW, SOME YOUNG PERSON MIGHT LEVERAGE THEMSELVES AND ONCE THEY'VE FINALLY SAVED A DEPOSIT, BECAUSE IT'S HARDER FOR APARTMENTS BECAUSE THEY'RE PERCEIVED AS MORE VOLUBLE ` VOLATILE, SORRY ` ONCE THAT HAD ACTUALLY OCCURRED, HOW DO THEY THEN GET SUFFICIENT COIN TO ACTUALLY ` WHEN THEY HAVE THE FAMILY ` TO MOVE ON AND MOVE ON AND MOVE ON? THAT TRACK IS GOING TO BE VERY EXPENSIVE. THE THEORY OF THE PLAN IS THAT IF THERE'S A LOT OF BUILDING, THEN THERE WILL BE A FLOW-THROUGH EFFECT SO THAT THE EXPENSIVE, MORE CLOSE TO THE CITY AND IN THE LEAFY SUBURBS APARTMENTS WILL` IF THERE ARE MORE OF THEM, PEOPLE WITH THE MONEY WILL BUY THEM, AND THAT WILL TAKE SOME OF THE PRESSURE OFF THE OTHER AREAS WHERE THEY CAN BUILD CHEAPER HOUSING. BERNARD? THAT IS ONE OF THE RISKS HERE ` IS THAT IF WE ARE BUILDING LOTS OF APARTMENTS, THE BANKS ARE NOT THAT KEEN TO LEND THE BIG LOAN-TO-VALUE RATIOS FOR THOSE APARTMENTS. NO, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A BIGGER DEPOSIT. YEAH, AND INTERESTING THAT ANZ, WHICH INTERVENED IN THE DEBATE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO AND SAID, 'WE'RE GOING TO PULL BACK A BIT,' IT ACTUALLY ON JUNE 4TH ANNOUNCED THAT PROPERTY INVESTORS COULDN'T BUY OFF THE PLAN FOR APARTMENTS OR BARE LAND, SO THAT MAY BE ONE OF THE RISKS HERE THAT THE PULLING BACK OF THE AVAILABILITY OF CREDIT MAY ACTUALLY STOP SOME OF THESE OFF-THE-PLAN FINANCING OF APARTMENTS. APARTMENT MARKET, OK. WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. WE WILL BE BACK IN A MOMENT WITH WHAT WILL BE MAKING NEWS NEXT WEEK. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH THE NATION AND OUR PANEL. MORE TALK ON HOUSING. METIRIA TUREI, BERNARD ` WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT THIS WEEK WHEN SHE WADED INTO BRASH TERRITORY BY SAYING THAT SHE'D LIKE THE PRICES OF HOUSES IN AUCKLAND TO GO DOWN ABOUT, MM, 40% TO 50%? YEAH, IT WAS GREAT TO SEE A POLITICIAN ACKNOWLEDGE REALITY AND MATHEMATICS, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT GET AFFORDABLE HOUSING BY JUST WAITING FOR INCOMES TO RISE. THAT WOULD TAKE 50 YEARS. AND, UM, METIRIA CAME OUT AND ACTUALLY PASSED THE ARTHUR GRIMES TEST. ARTHUR SAID, 'WHENEVER I TALK ABOUT AFFORDABILITY, I ASK A POLITICIAN, 'DO YOU WANT HOUSE PRICES TO FALL?' 'IF THEY SAY THEY DON'T, THEN I KNOW THEY'RE NOT SERIOUS.' WELL, METIRIA CAME OUT THIS WEEK, AND SHE WAS SERIOUS. SHE MIGHT'VE PASSED THE GRIMES TEST, BUT DOES SHE PASS THE VOTERS TEST WITH THAT? DO WE WANT THIS CITY TO BE A PLACE WHERE TEACHERS AND NURSES AND CONSTRUCTION WORKERS, FOR THAT MATTER, CAN AFFORD TO LIVE? WELL, OF COURSE WE DO, SO BERNARD'S QUITE RIGHT. THE NUMBERS MEAN THAT HOUSE PRICES HAVE TO COME DOWN. IT'S GOT TO HAPPEN OVER TIME. IT CAN'T HAPPEN QUICKLY ` UM, THAT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT ` UH, BUT POLITICIANS WHO ARE BRAVE ENOUGH TO SAY WE'VE GOT TO BRING THIS BACK` BACK TO A SEMBLANCE OF` OF WHAT'S REASONABLE SO WE CAN HAVE A PROPER CITY THAT PEOPLE CAN AFFORD TO LIVE IN, THAT'S THE RIGHT THING FOR THEM TO BE SAYING, AND SHE NEEDS TO BE JOINED BY OTHERS NOW. BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT, ARE THEY? I MEAN, IT CAME UP IN A RECENT PANEL WE ARE ON, AND GRANT ROBERTSON REFUSED TO ENGAGE ON THAT ISSUE. YOU KNOW, HE'S HEAD OF LABOUR. HE'S NOT GOING TO ENGAGE. HE'S MADE THE SAME CALCULATION AS JOHN KEY. YOU KNOW, YOU JUST DON'T AFFECT IT. WELL, JOHN KEY SAID IT'S TAKING, UM, SAVINGS FROM` FROM KIWI FAMILIES. THAT'S THE POLITICAL LINE. IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT` THE ARTHUR GRIMES TEST, ARTHUR GRIMES IS TALKING ABOUT HOUSE PRICES SHOULD BE RESTORED TO NOT WHAT THEY WERE 20 YEARS AGO, 30 YEARS AGO; WHAT THEY WERE SIX YEARS AGO. IT'S NOT LIKE EVERYBODY'S ALWAYS HAD THEIR SAVINGS IN THEIR AUCKLAND HOUSE. THE AUCKLAND HOUSE PRICES HAVE RISEN SO STEEPLY SO QUICKLY. IT'S ALSO WORTH CHALLENGING THIS IDEA THAT SOMEHOW IF HOUSE PRICES FELL, THE ECONOMY WOULD FALL OVER AND THE BANKING SYSTEM WOULD COLLAPSE. THAT'S NOT THE CASE. THE RESERVE BANK HAS DONE STRESS TESTS OF A 55% HOUSE-PRICE FALL, AND THE BANKS COPED JUST FINE. ALSO, A 40% HOUSE-PRICE FALL JUST TAKES US BACK TO WHERE WE WERE IN 2012, 2013 IN AUCKLAND. BUT AS FRAN POINTS OUT, YOU'VE GOTTA GET YOUR POLITICAL BUDDIES ON BOARD, AND LABOUR HAD THE CAR IN REVERSE AND WAS SCREAMING AWAY FROM THAT AT THE RATE OF KNOTS. ABSOLUTELY. WELL, THERE'S A GOOD COP, BAD COP THING GOING ON HERE. AND THE THING ABOUT THEIR MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING, WHICH IS NOT A COALITION AGREEMENT, IS THAT IF ONE OF THEM SAYS IT, THE OTHER DOESN'T HAVE TO SAY IT. YOU KNOW, THEN YOU GET A DEBATE` BUT IT DID COME AS A SURPRISE TO LABOUR, DIDN'T IT, FRAN? > YES, IT DID, AND LABOUR HAS STARED VERY CAREFULLY AWAY FROM ANY POLICY THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY TANK THE HOUSE PRICE. UM, THEY` YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHERE THE VOTING BLOCK IS, SO THEY'RE NOT GOING TO UPSET THAT. MM. WE COULD ACTUALLY SEE, THOUGH, IF YOU GET A LOT OF, UM, SMALLER, AFFORDABLE HOUSES, UH, BUILT, YOU COULD HAVE AFFORDABLE HOUSES THERE. BUT THE BIG, ESTABLISHED, THREE-BEDROOMED ON A SECTION, THAT PRICE MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY FALL, BUT THAT WOULD DRAG THE AVERAGE DOWN. SO YOU COULD HAVE` YOU COULD HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO. BEST OF BOTH WORLDS. AND THAT IS ONE OF THE PRIMARY` AND THAT'S ONE OF THE PRIMARY PARTS OF THE UNITARY PLAN, ISN'T IT? DOUBLING` DOUBLING THE NUMBER OF HOUSES TO BE BUILT THAT THE COUNCIL THOUGHT IN ORDER FOR THAT TO HAPPEN. IT'S PRECISELY WHAT THEY'RE HOPING WILL HAPPEN. HEY, LET'S LOOK AT POLITICS, UM, FURTHER AFIELD ` THE AMERICAN ELECTION. WELL, DONALD TRUMP FINALLY SEEMS TO HAVE SAID SOMETHING THAT HAS, YOU KNOW, GOT PEOPLE'S BACK UP, WHICH IS, UH, CALLING ON RUSSIA FOR ASSISTANCE TO, UM, PROCURE A HACK, IT WOULD SEEM, OF HILLARY CLINTON'S EMAILS. AND, UM, PUTIN, OF COURSE, DESCRIBES HIM AS A VERY TALENTED POLITICIAN, AND, UM` AND NOW IN THE DPRK TODAY, THEY'VE COME OUT AND DESCRIBED TRUMP AS WISE, SO, I MEAN, THESE ARE THE BUDDIES. THESE WERE THE EVIL EMPIRE ONCE IF YOU, KNOW, GO BACK TO REAGAN OR YOU GO BACK TO BUSH, AND NOW THEY'RE ENDORSING A REPUBLICAN. IT IS SO WACKY. IT IS, WACKY. BUT WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THOSE COMMENTS? COS CLEARLY, HE'S SAID SOME REAL CLANGERS BEFORE AND NOBODY'S REALLY REACTED ` STUFF LIKE, YOU KNOW, 'YOU SEND YOUR WIFE OUT TO WORK', OR WHATEVER IT WAS, 'AND WHO KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN?' I THINK` SORRY, I WAS GOING TO SAY` BUT THAT THEY REACTED TO. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING WHEN YOU LISTEN TO TRUMP IS THAT HE DELIBERATELY SPEAKS IN A 'I DON'T QUITE KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON, 'BUT THERE IS SOMETHING HERE, AND WE'VE GOT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT', AND THAT'S` THAT'S WHAT HE'S TALKED ABOUT IN TERMS OF ISIS, UH, AND TERRORISM, BUT THAT'S THE LANGUAGE AND THE STYLE HE USES FOR EVERYTHING. IN OTHER WORDS, HE IS SPEAKING LIKE THE PEOPLE HE WANTS TO VOTE FOR HIM WHO ARE CONFUSED AND ANGRY AND UPSET AND JUST CONCERNED AND DON'T REALLY GET IT, UM, AND HE'S PLAYING DIRECTLY TO THAT. SO THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF IT. IT DOESN'T` IT DOESN'T MATTER TO HIM THAT EVERYBODY IN THE POLITICAL AND MEDIA ESTABLISHMENT AND EVERYBODY WHO CLAIMS TO BE RIGHT SENSIBLY ` SENSIBLE, THINKING PEOPLE ` ARE SAYING HE'S MAD, BECAUSE HE'S NOT SPEAKING TO THEM. A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE, THE PHONE IS OFF THE HOOK FOR THEM. SO WHEN THE ESTABLISHMENT AND THE MEDIA SAY, 'THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. IT'S TREASONOUS,' THEY GO, 'YOU'RE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO TOLD ME THAT GLOBALISATION WAS GOING TO WORK, 'AND I KNOW THAT OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, IT'S FAILED ME, 'AND DONALD'S THE ONLY PERSON WHO'S SAYING THE ESTABLISHMENT'S WRONG, SO I'M GOING WITH DONALD.' BUT AT THE SAME TIME, SOME REPUBLICANS DID... THIS WAS A STEP TOO FAR FOR THEM. YES, BUT THEY'VE BEEN SAYING THAT EVER SINCE HE BECAME A CANDIDATE, AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED. THAT'S NONSENSE. THEY'LL GO WITH WHO CAN GET... AND THIS IS THE EXTRAORDINARY THING. IF TRUMP WINS, THERE ARE TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BE... I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY'LL LIVE WITH THEMSELVES. ONE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SAY BERNIE AT ALL COSTS AND CLINTON'S AS BAD AS TRUMP, AND THE OTHER ARE THE ANTI-TRUMP REPUBLICANS WHO ARE NOT DOING THEIR ABSOLUTE BEST TO STOP HIM, AND THEY NEED TO BE CONTINUING TO DO THAT. WE NEED TO HEAR FROM THE BUSHES, SAYING, 'WE'RE NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR TRUMP.' BUT IT IS ALSO ONE IN THE FACE FOR THE LIBERAL ESTABLISHMENT, INCLUDING MEDIA, ISN'T IT? WHEN YOU REALLY GET DOWN TO IT, BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DISADVANTAGED BY GLOBALISATION. AND, OF COURSE, HE'S DONE QUITE A BIT OF IT HIMSELF BY GETTING HIS OWN THINGS MADE OFFSHORE IN MEXICO AND EVERYTHING ELSE. BUT THAT DEBATE HAS TO ACTUALLY OCCUR. THIS THING ABOUT GLOBALISATION RAISING ALL BOATS. WELL, IF IT PUSHES YOUR ONE DOWN AND YOU'RE IN AMERICA AND YOU'RE MIDWEST AND THERE'S NO WORK THERE, THERE'S LIVES DESTROYED, NO ONE HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR GFC, THEY'VE GOT A BEEF, AND IT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH. TRUMP DIDN'T COME OUT OF NOTHING. NO, HE DIDN'T. WE'LL LEAVE IT HERE. AND HERE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WILL BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. INTERNAL AFFAIRS RELEASES DETAILS OF MPs' SPENDING OVER THE LAST THREE MONTHS. AND TE PUEA MARAE IN SOUTH AUCKLAND STOPS TAKING HOMELESS FAMILIES FROM TODAY. 22 PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY LIVING THERE, AND THE MARAE WILL WORK TO FIND THEM HOMES BEFORE THE END OF WINTER. AND NEXT WEEK ON THE SHOW, WE LAUNCH INTO LOCAL POLITICS WITH A WELLINGTON MAYORAL DEBATE. THE INCUMBENT, CELIA WADE-BROWN, FACES AT LEAST HALF A DOZEN CHALLENGES IN WHAT'S BEEN CALLED A BOOKIE'S NIGHTMARE. WE'LL ASK A PANEL OF CONTENDERS ABOUT EASING TRAFFIC CONGESTION, EXTENDING WELLINGTON AIRPORT'S RUNWAY AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO REINVIGORATE THE CAPITAL THAT WAS ONCE DESCRIBED BY JOHN KEY AS A DYING CITY ` HIS WORDS, NOT MINE. IF YOU'VE GOT QUESTIONS YOU'D LIKE TO PUT TO THEM, CONTACT US ON FACEBOOK OR TWITTER. WE'D LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU. BUT THAT'S ALL FOR NOW. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK. CAPTIONS BY ABLE. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 THIS PROGRAMME WAS MADE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE NZ ON AIR PLATINUM FUND.