KIA ORA, AND WELCOME TO 'THE NATION'. I'M LISA OWEN. ON TODAY'S PROGRAMME, THOUSANDS ILL, SCHOOLS CLOSED AND BUSINESSES SUFFERING. HAVELOCK NORTH'S GASTRO OUTBREAK IS ONE OF THE WORST PUBLIC HEALTH SCARES IN A GENERATION. WIFE'S IN HOSPITAL, AND I'VE GOT THREE SICK KIDS AT HOME TOO. SITTING A NEW GOLD RECORD FOR THE NUMBER OF TRIPS TO THE LOO, I THINK. OH, I TELL YA, IT'S NOT MUCH FUN. WHAT HAVE YOU GUYS HAD? UH, EVERYTHING. (CHUCKLES) FROM EVERYWHERE. SO HOW DID THIS HAPPEN, AND WHO'S TO BLAME? WE TALK TO HASTINGS MAYOR LAWRENCE YULE. AND WE LOOK AT WHAT CAN BE DONE TO PROTECT THE COUNTRY'S DRINKING WATER SUPPLY. THEN I TALK TO FORMER CTU PRESIDENT HELEN KELLY ABOUT HER LIFETIME CAMPAIGNING FOR WORKERS' RIGHTS AND WHY SHE DOESN'T HAVE A BUCKET LIST. AND I THINK THERE'S ALL THESE FILMS AND EXPECTATIONS ABOUT PEOPLE DYING, HAVE A BUCKET LIST, YOU KNOW, TICK IT OFF, JUMP OUT OF A HELICOPTER. WELL, YOU KNOW, WHO WANTS TO DO THAT? LATER, WE WRAP UP THE POLITICAL WEEK WITH OUR PANEL ` LAILA HARRE, CONOR ENGLISH AND MAIKI SHERMAN. AND JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO TAKE A NOT-SO-SERIOUS LOOK AT THE PAST SEVEN DAYS. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. AS ALWAYS, WE WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK, SO DO GET IN TOUCH. THE DETAILS ARE ON SCREEN NOW. AND IF YOU'RE ON TWITTER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ALONG WITH OUR TWITTER PANEL ` DR MARIAM PARWAIZ AND FORMER NATIONAL CANDIDATE LEWIS HOLDEN ` WITH THE HASHTAG NATIONTV3. WELL, IT HAS BEEN THE WEEK FROM HELL FOR RESIDENTS OF HAVELOCK NORTH. HALF OF THE AREA'S HOUSEHOLDS HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN WITH A GASTRIC ILLNESS ` A TOTAL OF MORE THAN 4000 PEOPLE. ONE OF THOSE WAS 80-YEAR-OLD JEAN SPARKSMAN, WHO DIED A WEEK AGO. NOW, THE SOURCE OF THE ILLNESS IS CAMPYLOBACTER, BELIEVED TO BE CAUSED BY CATTLE, SHEEP OR DEER FAECAL MATTER IN TWO HAVELOCK NORTH WATER BORES. WELL, JOINING ME NOW IS HASTINGS MAYOR LAWRENCE YULE. MR YULE, THE LATEST IS THAT THE CONTAMINATION IS LIKELY FROM COW, SHEEP OR DEER FAECAL MATTER. HOW DID IT GET IN THE BORE? WHERE IS IT COMING FROM? LISA, WE HAVE NO IDEA. SO, THE TEST RESULTS WE GOT LAST NIGHT INDICATED IT WAS UNLIKELY TO COME FROM POULTRY SOURCES AND MORE LIKELY TO BE FROM THE SOURCES YOU'VE OUTLINED. IT IS A COMPLETE MYSTERY AS I SIT HERE TODAY AS TO HOW IT'S GOT INTO THE BORES. BECAUSE THE TESTS TAKE TWO DAYS, SO WE'RE NOW SATURDAY, BUT AS ON THURSDAY MORNING, THE TEST THAT WAS DONE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WAS STILL TESTING POSITIVE FOR E. COLI IN BOTH OF THOSE BORES. SO WHATEVER IS IN THE AQUIFER IS STILL THERE. SO YOU'VE STILL GOT AN ACTIVE CONTAMINATION, BASICALLY? YES, WE HAVE. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW THIS HAS BEEN MANAGED, BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT IT. A SENIOR LOCAL LEADER TOLD 'THE NATION' THAT THE COUNCIL'S HANDLING OF THIS INCIDENT IS 'AN UNMITIGATED F-ING DISASTER,' AND SAID THAT THE COUNCIL IS WAY OUT OF ITS LEAGUE. ARE YOU WAY OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE? HAVE YOU BEEN THROUGH THIS? NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I THINK WE'VE ACTED VERY RESPONSIBLY. WE'VE USED THE RIGHT INFORMATION, AND WE'VE MADE PRETTY QUICK DECISIONS. FOR EXAMPLE, THE WHOLE OF THE HAVELOCK NORTH COMMUNITY WAS CHLORINATED BY 8PM LAST FRIDAY. THEY OFFICIALLY DECIDED TO CHLORINATE THAT AT 3 O'CLOCK THAT AFTERNOON. AND MY STAFF WORKED ALL THROUGH THE NIGHT FLUSHING CHLORINE THROUGH THE SYSTEM. SO, ACTUALLY, WHILE THE CONTAMINATION AND PEOPLE WERE GETTING SICK FOR SOME TIME BEFORE THAT, WHEN WE ACTUALLY REALISED WHAT WAS GOING ON, THE REACTION WAS VERY, VERY SWIFT. OKAY, WELL, LET'S LOOK AT THIS IN MORE DETAIL. WE'VE GOT A BAR GRAPH HERE WHICH IS FROM AUTHORITIES WHICH SHOW THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE GETTING SICK. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT. YOU WOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH THAT, I'M SURE. SO AS YOU CAN SEE, EARLY MONDAY, AUGUST THE 8TH, SO THAT'S MONDAY MORNING, THERE ARE HIGHER LEVELS, A REAL CLUSTER OF PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO GET SICK. YET IT TAKES FIVE DAYS UNTIL FRIDAY BEFORE ANY ACTION IS TAKEN. THAT'S BECAUSE ON THE TUESDAY WHEN THE TEST WAS TAKEN, IT CAME BACK AS NEGATIVE. IF WE'D KNOWN ON THE TUESDAY WE'D GOT A POSITIVE TEST, WE PROBABLY WOULD'VE DONE SOMETHING MUCH MORE ABOUT IT THEN, BUT WE HAD A NEGATIVE TEST. THERE WAS NOTHING TO SUSPECT` SO WHAT WENT WRONG? WHY WAS THAT TEST NEGATIVE? WE DON'T KNOW. THAT WILL BE PART OF THE INVESTIGATION. I MEAN, THIS IS A STANDARD TESTING METHODOLOGY USED RIGHT THROUGHOUT NZ. IT CAME BACK AS A NEGATIVE TEST. IT WAS ONLY ON FRIDAY, BECAUSE WHAT WE DID WAS TEST ON TUESDAY AND AGAIN ON THURSDAY. ON FRIDAY MORNING, WE HAD AN INDICATOR TEST. IT SAID SOMETHING LOOKS SUSPICIOUS. 70% OF THOSE INDICATOR TESTS COME BACK AS FALSE POSITIVES. SO IN OTHER WORDS, THERE'S NEVER ANYTHING THERE. SO ON FRIDAY MORNING, WE SAID WE'VE GOT AN INDICATOR TEST, AND SAID WE'VE GOT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE GETTING ILL, AND WE PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER. OKAY. WELL, LET'S LOOK AT THAT IN SOME DETAIL. YOU HAVE RELEASED A TRAIL OF EMAILS TO 'THE NATION' THAT SHOW A LITTLE BIT OF WHO KNEW WHAT AND WHEN. SO WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THESE IN A BIT OF A DETAIL. SO IF WE CAN BRING THAT TRAIL UP. THE MORNING OF FRIDAY THE 12TH, WE KNOW THAT THERE WAS A POSITIVE E. COLI TEST. A POSITIVE INDICATOR TEST. AN INDICATOR TEST, YEAH. HASTINGS DISTRICT COUNCIL NOTIFIED THE DHB OF THAT TEST. EMAILS SHOW THAT THE DHB KNEW THAT MORNING THAT A REST HOME HAD A RESIDENT WITH A POSITIVE CAMPYLOBACTER TEST. THEY ALSO KNEW THAT UP TO 15 PEOPLE HAD VISITED ONE PHARMACY FOR VOMITING AND DIARRHOEA AND NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE RELATED, AND THAT THE HOSPITAL ALSO HAD AT THAT POINT MULTIPLE CASES PRESENT TO THE HOSPITAL. NOW, ALL OF THIS WAS OUTLINED IN AN EMAIL THAT WAS SENT AT 12.53 BY THE DHB MANAGER TO MULTIPLE SENIOR COUNCIL AND DHB OFFICIALS. THERE WAS AN OUTBREAK MEETING SCHEDULED AT 2 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON, AND AT 2.30 AN EMAIL GOES TO THE MAYOR, YOU. YOU'RE LOOPED IN TO AN EMAIL SAYING YOU HAVE A PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEM. BUT HERE'S THE THING. THE FIRST PUBLIC NOTIFICATION IS AT 6.40 ON FRIDAY NIGHT ON THE DHB WEBSITE. RIGHT? THE DHB OR ON OUR WEBSITE. I'M NOT SURE. SO WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG, GIVEN THAT THEY HAD ALL OF THIS EVIDENCE IN THE MORNING BEFORE THEY SENT THE EMAIL AT 12.53? SO MY UNDERSTANDING... I DON'T KNOW WHY IT TOOK SO LONG TO GET TO THAT POINT. SO I CANNOT BE RESPONSIBLE OR DO I KNOW THE DETAIL AROUND THE DHB'S REACTION. WHAT I KNOW IS I WAS TOLD AT 2.30, AND I WAS TOLD THEY THOUGHT SOMETHING WAS GOING ON, AND AT 4.30 I WAS ALSO TOLD AT THE CONCLUSION AT THAT MEETING, THEY DECIDED TO CHLORINATE THE WATER. THE ISSUE` CAN I JUST STOP YOU THERE? BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT. YOU SAY YOU CAN'T BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DHB'S ACTIONS. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE FACT THAT THEY HAD ALL OF THIS INFORMATION IN THE MORNING? AND IT'S NOT JUST ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION. IT IS MULTIPLE CLUES TO THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM. I HADN'T HEARD IN THAT MUCH DETAIL UNTIL WHAT YOU'VE JUST TOLD ME. SO I KNOW THEY'D RELEASED THE DETAILS TO YOU. I HAVEN'T READ ALL THAT DETAIL. BUT I'D SAY THIS. THAT WILL ALL BE PART OF THE INQUIRY. I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO REALISE THAT WE KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH WATER-BORNE ILLNESS, AND THE FIRST THING WE NEEDED TO DO WAS TO PUT CHLORINE IN THE WATER. THAT BEGAN AT 5.30, AND BY 8 O'CLOCK THAT NIGHT, THE CHLORINE HAD ELIMINATED ALL THE BUGS. WE WERE GOING ON A HUNCH. WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE BUG WAS. AND THEN THEY MET AND SAID, 'BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE BUG WAS, SHOULD WE ISSUE A WATER NOTICE?' THAT TOOK THE DHB, THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH OFFICIALS A WHILE TO DECIDE WHAT SHOULD WE DO, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO GO OUT WITH TWO LEVELS OF INFORMATION. OK, I GET THAT. BUT THIS EMAIL AT 12.53 SENT FROM A DHB SENIOR MANAGER WENT TO THE WATER SUPPLY MANAGER AT THE DISTRICT COUNCIL, THE ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH TEAM LEADER, THE INFECTION CONTROL OFFICER, THE MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH, THE MEDICAL ADVISER, THE PUBLIC HEALTH DOCTOR, THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ADVISER, SEVERAL SENIOR MANAGERS IN THE DISTRICT COUNCIL AND A PUBLIC RELATIONS PERSON. AND YOU HAD POSITIVE CAMPYLOBACTER TESTS AT THAT POINT. WE DIDN'T HAVE POSITIVE CAMPYLOBACTER TESTS. WE HAD AN INDICATOR TEST FOR E. COLI. WE'VE ONLY JUST` CAMPYLOBACTER TESTS TAKE OVER THREE DAYS TO GET BACK FROM THE SAMPLING, SO WE HAD A PRESENCE OF SOMETHING, WE THOUGHT, AND I REITERATE ` THOSE TESTS ARE 70% WRONG. THE WATER TEST, BUT THIS SHOWS THAT RESIDENTS HAD ALREADY TESTED POSITIVE FOR CAMPYLOBACTER. LOOKING AT ALL OF THIS, IT LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE STUFFED UP, DOESN'T IT? NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO. I THINK THAT WILL ALL COME OUT IN THE INQUIRY AS WELL AS TO WHETHER IT COULD'VE BEEN DONE FASTER AND BETTER. I ACTUALLY BELIEVE... ONE OF THE THINGS I WASN'T AWARE OF UNTIL THE NEXT MORNING WAS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE BECOME UNWELL. WHEN I WAS TOLD, I WAS TOLD THERE WAS A NUMBER OF PEOPLE UNWELL, NOT ANY QUAN` A FEW, I WAS TOLD. AND THEN AT 4.30 I WAS TOLD THAT THE DHB HAD THOUGHT THAT THE TWO THINGS WERE LINKED. DID THE DHB MAKE A MISTAKE? NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO. DID THEY DRAG THEIR FEET? YOU NEED TO ASK THE DHB THAT, AND THE INQUIRY WILL DO THAT. I'M ASKING YOU, AND YOU'VE PROMISED TRANSPARENCY. I'M ASKING YOU TO BE TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK. WELL, BASED ON THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AT THE TIME IN TERMS OF... WE THOUGHT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A WATERBORNE DISEASE. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF REASONS HOW PEOPLE CAN GET CAMPYLOBACTER. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN GET IT FROM FOOD, SO YOU CAN HAVE AN OUTLET WHERE A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AT ` CAN GET IT FROM FOOD. WE HAD TO TRACE WHETHER, IN FACT, THE ILLNESS WAS LIKELY TO COME FROM WATER, AND THAT TOOK A LITTLE BIT OF TIME TO DO, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PANIC THE PUBLIC UNNECESSARILY. BUT THE THING IS I ALSO JUST WANT TO QUICKLY ASK ABOUT THE NOTIFICATIONS. THEY WERE PASSIVE NOTIFICATIONS. THEY WENT UP ON A WEBSITE. DID YOU-? DO YOU NOT HAVE AN ALERT SYSTEM IN A CRISIS SITUATION? THEY WEREN'T JUST PASSIVE. SO MEDIA RELEASES WENT OUT. WE PUT STUFF ON FACEBOOK. I THINK WE COULD HAVE DONE THINGS A LITTLE BIT BETTER AT THAT POINT ` I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MYSELF ` BUT I THINK AT 5, AFTER 5.30 ON A FRIDAY NIGHT, THERE IS NO IMMEDIATE SOLUTION. SO WE DON'T HAVE A TECH SYSTEM- THE 6 O'CLOCK NEWS? NO, BECAUSE THEY HAD MISSED THAT DEADLINE. ALL RIGHT. WELL, YOU HAD` I WANT TO TALK ABOUT A PREVIOUS CONTAMINATION SCARE, SEPTEMBER 2015. NOW, THAT INVESTIGATION WAS ONLY COMPLETED A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO. HOW COULD YOU LET THAT DRAG ON SO LONG WHEN THAT INFORMATION MIGHT HAVE BEEN MATERIAL TO WHAT'S HAPPENED NOW? WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE HAD THREE LITTLE INCIDENTS OF E. COLI IN ONE OF THE BORES ` IN BORE THREE. THEY WERE CHLORINATED ON TWO OCCASIONS, AND WITHIN A DAY, THERE WAS NO TEST IN THOSE BORES ANY MORE. SO WE THOUGHT SOMETHING MIGHT HAVE BEEN GOING ON. WE CLOSED THAT BORE IN OCTOBER OF LAST YEAR. BUT I'M ASKING YOU ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION. WHY DID YOU LET IT DRAG ON FOR SO LONG? WHEN WE ASKED THE CONSULTANTS, ONE, WE DIDN'T BELIEVE THE RISK WAS THAT GREAT, BECAUSE WE TURNED THE BORE OFF; BORES ONE AND TWO, WHICH ARE SUPPLYING HAVELOCK NORTH THROUGH THIS WHOLE TIME, HAVE NEVER HAD ONE POSITIVE TEST IN 35 YEARS SINCE THEY'VE BEEN INSTALLED. WHY DIDN'T YOU KEEP CHLORINATING THE BORES, THEN? WITHOUT THE RESULTS OF THE INVESTIGATION, WHY DIDN'T YOU CHLORINATE ALL THE WATER FROM THE BORES? WAS IT A MONEY ISSUE? AND THERE WAS NO REASON TO INDICATE THERE'S EVER BEEN A PROBLEM WITH BORES ONE AND TWO. OKAY. WELL, THE REPORT HAS SAID THAT THE EARTHWORKS AT THE MUSHROOM FARM MAY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE CONTAMINATION OF BORE THREE. NOW, THE EARTHWORKS AT THAT MUSHROOM FARM WERE ILLEGAL. THEY GOT FINED 300 BUCKS. ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THAT? WELL, IT WAS ILLEGAL, AND THEY WERE DEALT WITH AT THE TIME. I THINK THE INTERESTING THING WAS` ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THAT? BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO REFLECT IN ANY WAY THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS. WE DON'T KNOW THAT THERE IS A POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCE OF THEIR ACTION. THERE COULD BE, AND THAT'S STILL SUBJECT TO INVESTIGATION. I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING IS EVERYBODY HAS GONE FOR THAT MUSHROOM FARM, BUT THE INFORMATION WE RECEIVED LAST NIGHT, WHICH INDICATED IT IS UNLIKELY TO BE FROM POULTRY- AND JUST TO EXPLAIN, MUSHROOM FARMS USE CHICKEN MANURE TO MAKE MUSHROOMS, AND THE INDICATION LAST NIGHT SAYS THAT IT IS UNLIKELY TO HAVE COME FROM POULTRY. BUT THE REPORT DOES SAY BY CARVING OUT A TOP LAYER OF SOIL, YOU COULD'VE EXPOSED THOSE BORES TO CONTAMINATION. ONE BORE. YEAH. IT DOES SAY THAT, BUT AS I SAY, THAT'S ALL PART OF THE INVESTIGATION. WE ARE NOT RULING ANYTHING IN OR OUT. BUT IF YOU HAD ASKED ME THIS QUESTION YESTERDAY MORNING, I WOULD'VE SAID, 'ACTUALLY, THERE IS A POSSIBILITY AROUND THE MUSHROOM FARM.' AFTER LAST NIGHT'S INFORMATION AROUND THE DNA, WHICH SAID IT'S UNLIKELY TO BE POULTRY, I ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT'S ANOTHER SOURCE. OK. WELL, YOU'RE IN A SITUATION NOW WHERE BORE THREE'S CLOSED DOWN; BORE ONE AND TWO ARE STILL CONTAMINATED. YOU THOUGHT THAT THESE WERE, AS YOU'VE SAID, SECURE SUPPLIES. CLEARLY THEY'RE NOT. WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE YOU? WELL, WHAT WE'VE DONE IS WE'VE CHLORINATED THE WATER. WE'VE ISSUED A 'BOIL WATER' NOTICE FOR HAVELOCK NORTH. BY NEXT FRIDAY, WE'LL HAVE A UV SYSTEM PUT IN PLACE FOR HAVELOCK NORTH PEOPLE, AND CHLORINATION AND UV COMPLETELY ELIMINATE EVERY BUG. ALL RIGHT. THANKS FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING, LAWRENCE YULE. APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. WELL, HAVELOCK NORTH HAS BEEN THE EPICENTRE OF THIS EMERGENCY, BUT IT POSES SOME WIDER QUESTIONS ABOUT THE SECURITY OF DRINKING WATER FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, AND JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS THAT IS MASSEY UNIVERSITY SENIOR LECTURER IN ECOLOGY MIKE JOY. THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. WE KNOW THAT THIS OUTBREAK HAS BEEN CAUSED LIKELY BY DEER, COW OR SHEEP FAECES. WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT TELLS US? IT TELLS US THAT IT'S JUST A SYMPTOM OF A MUCH BIGGER PICTURE THAT'S HAPPENING IN NZ, AND IT'S NOT SURPRISING. I MEAN, THIS IS A BIG OUTBREAK, SO IT'S MADE THE NEWS, BUT PEOPLE DON'T REALISE. I'M SURE MOST NZERS DON'T REALISE THAT WE HAVE THE HIGHEST RATES IN THE OECD OR IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD OF THESE GASTRO DISEASES THAT COME FROM ANIMALS. AND SO WE MAY NEVER FIND THE CAUSE OF THIS, BUT WE CAN GO TO PLACES LIKE CANTERBURY AND WE CAN LOOK AT THE HUGE INCREASES THAT HAVE HAPPENED. SO WE'VE GOT THE HIGHEST RATES IN THE WORLD IN NZ, OR IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD, AND THEN THE HIGHEST RATES IN NZ ARE IN CANTERBURY, WHERE THERE'S LOTS OF INTENSIVE FARMING AND LOTS OF WATER TAKING FROM SHALLOW BORES. SO DO YOU THINK IT'S AGRICULTURAL INTENSIFICATION, IT'S FARMING INTENSIFICATION? IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND? THERE'S NO DOUBT IN CANTERBURY THAT THAT IS THE CAUSE. THERE'S NO DOUBT WHERE YOU TAKE WATER FROM SHALLOW BORES. AND IN THIS CASE, IT'S COMING BACK. THE DNA'S LOOKING LIKE IT'S COMING FROM RUMINANTS. SO IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WE MAY NEVER KNOW AND IT MAY NOT BE, BUT IN GENERAL THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE, THE REASON THAT WE HAVE THE HIGHEST IN THE WORLD IS BECAUSE WE'VE INTENSIFIED WITHOUT EVER TRYING TO CONTROL IT. THERE'S JUST BEEN THIS FREE-FOR-ALL, AND NOW THE CHICKENS` WELL, WHATEVER IS COMING HOME TO ROOST FOR US, YOU KNOW, FOR FAILURES IN THE PAST. BECAUSE THE THING IS, HEALTH MINISTER JONATHAN COLEMAN, HE DOESN'T THINK THAT THIS QUALIFIES AS A WATER EMERGENCY, WHAT'S HAPPENED AT HAVELOCK NORTH ` 4000 SICK PEOPLE. I MEAN, HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERISE OR DESCRIBE IT? IF THAT'S NOT AN EMERGENCY, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT IS. BUT, I MEAN, THAT'S A CLASSIC IN THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 4000 PEOPLE, BUT ACTUALLY WHAT GETS NOTIFIED WILL ONLY BE 90 OR 100, AND IT'S THE SAME... YOU KNOW, THE NOTIFICATIONS GIVE US THE HIGHEST LEVELS IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD, BUT THIS IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE THAT WHAT GETS NOTIFIED IS ONLY A TINY PROPORTION OF THE ILLNESSES THAT ARE OUT THERE. SO YOU THINK IT'S ACTUALLY BIGGER THAN WHAT WE KNOW IT TO BE? YEAH. YEAH, I'M SURE IT IS, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT SUCH A LOW PROPORTION ACTUALLY REPORT AND EVEN WITH THAT LOW PROPORTION WE'RE THE HIGHEST, SO, YOU KNOW... DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT'S BEEN SLOW TO RESPOND TO THIS? IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, NO, BUT I DON'T WANT TO COMMENT ON THIS ONE, BUT THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN OUT OF THE ROOM WHEN IT COMES TO ALLOWING... CENTRAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT HAVE JUST ALLOWED THIS MASSIVE EXPANSION OF INTENSIFICATION THAT'S CAUSED THE PROBLEMS AND DONE NOTHING ABOUT IT. SO THEY HAVE FAILED TOTALLY. AND IN SAYING THAT, OBVIOUSLY THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT'S CLOSE TO YOUR HEART. WE LIKE TO PRESENT OURSELVES AS 100% PURE NZ. YOU KNOW, SHOULD WE BE HAVING TO CHLORINATE OUR WATER? SHOULD WE BE ABLE TO BE DRINKING IT FROM THE TAP? YES, WE DEFINITELY SHOULD. THIS IS GOING TO BE JUST THE BEST THING EVER FOR THE WATER-BOTTLING COMPANIES IN NZ, BECAUSE NOW EVERYONE WILL BE WORRIED, AND IF WE DO CHLORINATE ALL THE WATER SUPPLIES IN NZ, THEN THE WATER-BOTTLING COMPANIES WILL MAKE A HUGE FORTUNE OUT OF THIS. THIS IS A BOON FOR THEM. SO WHERE DOES IT LEAVE US? WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO? YOU SAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE, WELL, IT'S ALLOWED, IN YOUR VIEW, RIFE INTENSIFICATION. YEAH. SO HOW DO WE TURN IT ROUND? IT'S NOT A FIVE-MINUTE EXERCISE, IS IT? NO, NO, BUT WE HAVE TO REALISE THAT PUTTING ALL THAT CRAP, YOU KNOW, IN THE ENVIRONMENT IS GOING TO CAUSE PROBLEMS. WE TALK ABOUT ONE HEALTH, SO A HEALTHY ENVIRONMENT, HEALTHY ANIMALS AND HUMAN HEALTH ALL GO TOGETHER. I MEAN, I GUESS THE BEST EXAMPLE I COULD GIVE WOULD BE IN NEW YORK CITY. YOU KNOW, A COUPLE OF DECADES AGO, THEY HAD A WATER SUPPLY PROBLEM. THEY HAD THE CHOICE ` YOU EITHER SPEND HEAPS OF MONEY UPGRADING WATER TREATMENT, PUTTING MORE CHEMICALS IN IT AND MORE FILTERING, OR YOU GO TO THE CATCHMENT, AND THAT'S WHAT THEY DID. THEY WENT TO THE CATCHMENT; THEY GOT RID OF ANIMALS OUT OF THE CATCHMENT. THEY WENT TO GROWING NUTS AND PLANTED TREES AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING, AND NOW THEY HAVE` IS THAT A REASONABLE EXPECTATION IN NZ? YEAH, YEAH, BECAUSE IT'S AN EXPECTATION THE WORLD HAS TO FACE, THAT ANIMALS HAVE TO COME OUT OF AGRICULTURE. FOR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS, MORE THAN HALF OF THE PROBLEM COMES FROM RUMINANT ANIMALS. AND SO THE REALITY IS THAT NZ HAS TO FACE UP TO IT. BUT THAT'S WHERE WE MAKE A LARGE PROPORTION OF OUR MONEY FROM AS A COUNTRY. WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU GET 80% OF YOUR FARMERS HAVING TO BORROW TO STAY IN BUSINESS FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, HUGE SUMS OF MONEY. IT KEEPS BEING TALKED ABOUT AS IF IT'S REALLY VALUABLE, BUT NO ONE` WHEN WE COST JUST THE VERY MINIMUM THINGS THAT WE COULD COST AROUND THE IMPACTS OF DAIRY FARMING, IF THE INDUSTRY HAD TO PAY TO CLEAN UP ITS ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT, THEN IT'S A NO-SUM GAIN. IT'S A LOSE-LOSE FOR THE COUNTRY. SO WE'RE ALLOWING THIS EXPANSION, WE'RE ALLOWING THESE BAD THINGS TO HAPPEN TO US TO PROP UP AN INDUSTRY THAT WE SAY BRINGS IN SO MUCH MONEY, BUT IT'S ONLY BECAUSE WE DON'T MAKE THEM PAY. DO YOU THINK THAT THERE'S TOO MUCH RESPONSIBILITY BEING PLACED ON LOCAL COUNCILS, AND SHOULD THE SORT OF SURETY OF THE WATER SUPPLY AND THE QUALITY OF THE WATER SUPPLY BE SOMETHING THAT IS CENTRAL GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSIBILITY? YEAH, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. I MEAN, YEAH, THE LOCAL COUNCILS ARE TRYING TO DO THINGS ON A LIMITED BUDGET, AND I THINK YOU'LL FIND WHEN THEY DO THIS INQUIRY THAT THAT MONEY ` CORNERS HAVE BEEN CUT TO KEEP CHEAP WATER. I MEAN, IF YOU'RE ONLY 20M DOWN, THAT'S... IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE POLLUTION OF THE LANDSCAPE, THEN THE BORE WATER, THE GROUNDWATER STARTS POLLUTING FROM THE SURFACE DOWN. OVER TIME YOU FIND IT DEEPER AND DEEPER AND DEEPER. SO IF YOU'RE IN A SHALLOW BORE, SAME IN CANTERBURY, ALL THE SHALLOW BORES ARE WHERE THE BAD STUFF HITS FIRST. IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO GET DOWN TO THE DEEP BORES, WHICH IS WHERE THESE BOTTLING COMPANIES ARE TAKING THEIR WATER FROM. SO WE'RE GIVING AWAY WATER, THE CLEANEST WATER, TO BOTTLING COMPANIES TO SELL US, AND WE'RE TAKING THE CHEAP WAY, WHICH IS AT THE SURFACE, THE ONES THAT ARE IMPACTED. YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST SUCH A DUMB MOVE. I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. ALL RIGHT, MIKE JOY, APPRECIATE YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. NOW, DO STAY WITH US. AFTER THE BREAK ` OUR WIDE-RANGING INTERVIEW WITH HELEN KELLY. THE LOOPHOLE SHE'S PLANNING TO USE TO BRING MEDICAL MARIJUANA INTO THE COUNTRY LEGALLY, WHY SHE SAYS WORKERS NEED MORE PAY AND WHO SHE THINKS WILL WIN NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION. FORMER COUNCIL OF TRADE UNIONS PRESIDENT HELEN KELLY HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FIGHTER. WHETHER IT'S THE DEATH RATE IN THE FORESTRY INDUSTRY OR SUPPORTING THE PIKE RIVER FAMILIES, THE 51-YEAR-OLD HAS BEEN AT THE FOREFRONT OF SOME OF THE COUNTRY'S BIGGEST BATTLES ON WORKERS' RIGHTS. SINCE BEING DIAGNOSED WITH CANCER, SHE'S ALSO BECOME AN ADVOCATE FOR LEGALISING MEDICAL MARIJUANA. SO WHEN I SAT DOWN WITH HER RECENTLY, IT WAS THE OBVIOUS QUESTION TO START WITH. JUST WONDERING, HAVE YOU GOT ANY MARIJUANA COOKIES ON YOU? > NOT ON ME, BUT I HAVE GOT MARIJUANA ON ME. NOT COOKIES. WOULD YOU LIKE ONE? WHAT HAVE YOU GOT? WHAT HAVE I GOT? I'VE GOT SOME OIL. I'VE GOT SOME BALM, WHICH IS LIKE A COCONUT OIL MIXED WITH CANNABIS, AND I JUST RUB IT ON MY SPINE WHERE I'VE GOT A BAD FRACTURE AND TUMOURS, AND IT IS SENSATIONAL. AND THAT IS ILLEGAL TO RUB A BALM ON YOUR SKIN. HAD YOU USED, UM, DOPE BEFORE YOU WERE SICK? AT TEACHERS' COLLEGE I'D HAD A FEW EVENINGS ON MARIJUANA, JUST SMOKING IT, YOU KNOW, AS STUDENTS DO, BUT, ACTUALLY, NO, NOT REALLY. AND I WOULD SAY IT'S PROBABLY BEEN 10 YEARS SINCE I'VE EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT IT. IT'S ONLY SINCE I'VE GOT SICK THAT PEOPLE STARTED GIVING IT TO ME AND I STARTED TRIALLING IT AGAIN AND SEEING HOW AMAZING IT IS. SO WOULD LEGALISING MEDICAL MARIJUANA HAVE BEEN AN ISSUE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TAKEN ON IF IT HADN'T AFFECTED YOU PERSONALLY? IT'S AN ISSUE THAT I RAISED WITH THE CTU ABOUT MARIJUANA BEING USED TO PERSECUTE WORKERS, FOR QUITE A FEW WEEKS. AND WHAT WE FOUND WAS IT WAS BEING USED AS A MORAL PUNISHMENT BY COMPANIES WHO WERE ACTUALLY TESTING THEIR WORKERS, AND THEY WEREN'T IMPAIRED, THEY WEREN'T AT RISK, THEY WEREN'T TURNING UP TO WORK DRUGGED, BUT WERE USING IT TO DISCIPLINE THEM BECAUSE OF THE LEGACY. BUT IN TERMS OF MEDICAL MARIJUANA, YOU TALK ABOUT THE CANCER WHISPER. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? OH YEAH, SO WE TRAVEL AROUND THESE CANCER WARDS WHEN I'M HAVING CHEMO OR HAVING RADIATION, AND OFTEN YOU'RE THERE DAY AFTER DAY. YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING IN FOR THE SAME TREATMENT REPEATED, AND WE CALL IT THE CANNABIS WHISPER. WE'LL BE SITTING THERE. PEOPLE JUST COME AND SIT NEXT TO US, THEY'LL RECOGNISE US, AND THEY'LL BE DESPERATE AND THEY'LL SAY, 'WE'VE SEEN YOU ON THE TV SAYING YOU CAN GET CANNABIS. 'MY HUSBAND'S HAD HIS STOMACH REMOVED, YOU KNOW, AND CAN'T REALLY TAKE MORPHINE. 'HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING? YOU KNOW, HE'S SO DESPERATE.' 'MY KID HAS LOST HALF THEIR BODY WEIGHT. THEY'VE GOT LEUKAEMIA.' YOU KNOW, CANNABIS MAKES THEM EAT. AND WE'VE HAD ONE MOTHER WHOSE KID'S PUT ON 4 KILOS JUST EATING ILLEGAL CANNABIS. YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THAT WORTH FOR AN 8-YEAR-OLD KID? AND JUST CONVERSATIONS LIKE THAT, 'CAN YOU...?' YOU KNOW, DESPERATE. MY ADVICE IS ALWAYS ASK AROUND; SOMEONE WILL GET YOU SOME. EVERYBODY'S GOT SOME, WHO KNOWS HOW TO GET THIS DRUG. IT'S AN INCREDIBLY WIDE` AND YOU'VE GOT NO QUALMS ABOUT DOING THAT? NO. IF I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO HURT THEM, OF COURSE I WOULD. YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A PERSON THAT'S OUT THERE PROMOTING A CURE. I'M NOT SAYING CANNABIS IS A CURE TO CANCER. I'M SAYING IT'S A VERY, VERY GOOD PAIN RELIEF. NOW, I KNOW PEOPLE CAN LEGALLY BRING PRESCRIPTION MEDICATION INTO NZ FROM OVERSEAS, SO IF YOU HAVE PRESCRIPTION CANNABIS PRODUCT, YOU CAN BRING IT IN. ARE YOU STILL PLANNING TO TRAVEL AND TO BRING SOME PRODUCT BACK? THAT'S WHAT WE'D LIKE TO DO, SO IF YOU HAVE A LEGAL PRESCRIPTION ISSUED IN A COUNTRY FOR ANY DRUG THAT IS RECOGNISED THERE, YOU'RE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO TRANSFER IT HERE. OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU'VE GOT HIV AND YOU'RE TAKING HIV DRUGS IN THE STATES, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO BRING THEM BACK HERE IF YOU COME HERE AS A TOURIST OR WHATEVER. SO THERE'S THIS LOOPHOLE. IF IT'S A PRESCRIBED CANNABIS PRODUCT BY A DOCTOR IN A REGISTERED REGIME, YOU CAN BRING IT BACK IN, AND THAT'S WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO, AND THAT MAKES IT EVEN MORE FARCICAL. BUT WHAT I WOULD LIKE IS MY DOCTOR TO BE TRAINED IN CANNABIS PRODUCTS, FOR HIM OR HER TO ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND EACH ONE AND SAY, 'THIS IS THE BEST ONE FOR YOU. THIS IS ONE DURING THE DAY IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET STONED,' YOU KNOW? IDEALLY, THERE'D BE A MARKET AND I'D BE ABLE TO GET PRESCRIBED. SO YOU'D LIKE DOCTORS TO HAVE THE POWER TO PRESCRIBE THIS IF THEY FEEL THAT THEIR PATIENT WOULD BENEFIT, NOT THE ASSOCIATE MINISTER OF HEALTH? (CHUCKLES) NO. I'M NOT QUITE AT THE POINT WHERE I'M HANDING OVER MY HEALTH PROGNOSIS TO PETER DUNNE. I'M SORRY ABOUT THAT. I'M SURE IT'S GOOD ADVICE, BUT, YEAH. AT DOCTOR LEVEL IS WHERE YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE? OF COURSE IT SHOULD BE, YEAH. I MEAN, IMAGINE IF PETER DUNNE WAS PRESCRIBING MY CHEMOTHERAPY OR MY MORPHINE, EVEN. IT WOULD BE CRAZY. SO WHAT WOULD BE THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING IN THAT PRESCRIPTION CANNABIS PRODUCT? WOULD YOU JUST BE MAKING A STATEMENT, A POINT, OR ARE YOU BRINGING IT IN`? IT WOULD BE TWO THINGS. ONE IS I THINK I'D GET A GOOD CHOICE OF A PRODUCT. SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DOING SOMETHING MORE PERMANENT, WHERE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BE TAKING THESE PRODUCTS FOR A LONG TIME GET A PROPER PRESCRIPTION AND KNOW WHAT WILL HELP THEM AND HOW TO USE IT AND ALL OF THAT AND ALLOWING A PROPER SUPPLY TO THEM THROUGH THIS. SO ALMOST LIKE A DIFFERENT KIND OF BUYERS' CLUB. A DRUG-BUYERS' CLUB, YEAH. BUT FOR CANNABIS FROM OVERSEAS. BUT FOR CANNABIS FROM OVERSEAS, YEAH, NON-PROFIT, LEGAL, SENSIBLE, MATURE, REGULATED SYSTEM. OUR BIG PROBLEM IS FINDING A PLACE YOU COULD GO AND GET IT AND BRING IT BACK INTO THE COUNTRY WITHOUT GETTING ARRESTED HALFWAY. SO IF YOU GO TO EUROPE, YOU COULD GET ARRESTED IN DUBAI OR WHEREVER, WHICHEVER WAY YOU COME BACK. IF YOU GO TO AMERICA, CAN YOU GET IT OUT OF THE STATE AND OVER HERE LEGALLY? AUSTRALIA'S OBVIOUSLY THE EASIEST ONE, BUT THEY AT THE MOMENT DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT PRODUCTS. BUT YOU WOULD BE DOING THAT WITH THE INTENTION OF DISTRIBUTING IT TO OTHERS? DON'T KNOW. WHATEVER THE LAW ALLOWS. DON'T THINK SO. I THINK EACH PERSON HAS TO HAVE THEIR OWN PRESCRIPTION AND BE BRINGING IT BACK IN FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL USE, WHICH IS POSSIBLE, RIGHT? YEAH, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ALSO ABOUT OTHER CAMPAIGNS THAT YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN ` YOUR WORK WITH THE UNION AND WORKERS' RIGHTS. > SO WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT THE MINIMUM WAGE SHOULD BE? AT THE MOMENT, I THINK IT SHOULD BE THE LIVING WAGE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW` 19.80. YEAH, WHICH IS A WAGE THAT PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A DECENT LIFE ON, AND IT'S A WAGE THAT NZ CAN AFFORD TO PAY ITS WORKERS AND WOULD BENEFIT ECONOMICALLY FROM A HIGHER-WAGE ECONOMY ON. DO YOU THINK THAT IS A REALISTIC MINIMUM WAGE, THOUGH? BECAUSE A LOT OF EMPLOYERS WOULD SAY NO. WELL, YOU HAVE TO GET THERE OVER TIME, BUT WHAT I SAY TO EMPLOYERS IS, 'WELL, WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR YOUR BUSINESS TO MAKE IT A GENUINE WAGE?' AND THEY CAN ALWAYS TELL YOU. THEY CAN ALWAYS SAY, 'WELL, IF WE HAD A 15% INCREASE IN THE CUSTOMER UPTAKE, WE'D BE FINE.' AND THEN YOU SAY, 'WELL, IF YOU'RE A LIVING-WAGE EMPLOYER AND YOU HAD PERMANENT STAFF 'AND YOU'RE DEVELOPING YOUR PRODUCTS AND YOU WERE ADVERTISING 'AND WE WERE PROMOTING YOU AS SOMEBODY WHO'S PREPARED TO INVEST IN YOUR STAFF, THAT IS DOABLE. 'BUT IF ALL YOU WANT TO DO IS COMPETE ON THE MINIMUM'` IS ACTUALLY THE RESPONSE. WHEN EMPLOYERS SAY, 'WE CAN'T AFFORD IT,' THEY'RE REALLY SAYING, 'WE WANT TO COMPETE ON THE MINIMUM,' THEN IT'S UNSUSTAINABLE BOTH FOR NZ FAMILIES BUT ALSO FOR THE NZ BUSINESS, BECAUSE NO ONE'S GOT ANY MONEY. I MEAN, YOU'RE DEALING WITH HOMELESS PEOPLE, RIGHT, WHO ARE WORKING. THAT ISN'T THE EQUATION. IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE WORK PLUS PAY PLUS NO HOUSE TO LIVE IN AT THE END OF THAT EQUALS NO HOUSE TO LIVE IN, IS IT? WELL, WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S HAPPENING LIKE THAT, THEN? ARE PEOPLE LESS CARING THESE DAYS ABOUT OUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS? ARE WE MORE INDIVIDUALISTIC? OR WHY AREN'T WE MAKING CHANGES THAT, IN YOUR VIEW, WOULD BRING BETTER LIVES FOR EVERYBODY? WELL, IT'S BY DESIGN. THIS INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS FRAMEWORK IS BY DESIGN TO SHIFT WEALTH FROM BUSINESS OWNERS` FROM WORKERS TO BUSINESS OWNERS AND COMPANY DIRECTORS AND INVESTORS, AND THAT'S THE MODEL. SO WE'VE JUST SEEN OUR GOVERNMENT REMOVE THE OBLIGATION TO CONCLUDE A COLLECTIVE EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT. THAT'S WHY THESE TALLEY'S WORKERS CAN'T ACHIEVE DECENT WAGES AND CONDITIONS. THEY'RE CHANGING THE LAW IN EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. THE TREASURY PAPERS SAID TO THE GOVERNMENT IF YOU CHANGE THE LAW IN THE WAY THEY DID TO THE TALLEY'S WORKERS, WAGES WILL GO DOWN. AND THE GOVERNMENT CHANGED THE LAW, SO WHAT WERE THEY TRYING TO ACHIEVE? REDUCTION IN WAGES, AND THAT'S WHAT THEY HAVE ACHIEVED. SO THIS IS BY DESIGN TO COMPETE ON LOW WAGES IN NZ AND, UM, NOT TO COMPETE AT THE HIGH` ON THE HIGH ROAD. I SUPPOSE THE THING WITH THAT IS, THOUGH, IT IS A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT, SO PEOPLE HAVE VOTED FOR THAT GOVERNMENT AND THEREFORE THE CHOICES ARGUABLY THAT THAT GOVERNMENT MAKES, SO WHY AREN'T, THEN, MORE PEOPLE MAKING A DIFFERENT CHOICE IF WE CARE ABOUT WHETHER PEOPLE HAVE A ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD, IF WE CARE ABOUT THE MINIMUM WAGE? WELL, I THINK PEOPLE ARE UNAWARE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF A GOOD INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS SYSTEM AND THEY'VE BEEN TRAINED IN THAT SINCE THE '90S. THEY'VE BEEN TOLD, YOU KNOW, A COMPANY ` FISHER & PAYKEL WILL MOVE TO CHINA AND THAILAND, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING. YOU NEED TO HAVE GLOBAL STANDARDS, RIGHT, IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPETE AT AN INTERNATIONAL LEVEL. BUT THE REALITY IS THAT PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO DEMAND DIFFERENT CONDITIONS OF WORK. PEOPLE ARE SHOCKED BY THINGS LIKE THE ZERO HOURS OR TAKING WAGES OUT OF WORKERS' PAY WHEN THE SERVICE STATION CLIENT DOES A RUNNER OR WHATEVER. SO THERE IS PEOPLE NOW STARTING TO SAY` OR HOMELESSNESS FOR WORKING PEOPLE. THERE ARE NOW PEOPLE STARTING TO SAY HOW SUSTAINABLE IS THIS MODEL? BUT UNTIL THERE'S A NATIONAL SYSTEM OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS, STEPPING OUTSIDE THAT MODEL MAKES YOU UNCOMPETITIVE. YOU KNOW, STEPPING OUTSIDE THAT MODEL MEANS THAT YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A DIFFERENT SORT OF ECONOMIC MODEL. THAT SHOULDN'T BE THE CASE. AND EVEN AUSTRALIA STILL HAS NATIONAL AGREEMENTS. THE MINIMUM WAGE FOR A FORESTRY WORKER IN AUSTRALIA IS $18. WE'VE GOT WORKERS HERE, 27 YEARS IN THE BUSH BEING KILLED ON $16 AN HOUR. WELL, TALKING ABOUT FORESTRY WORKERS, YOUR WORK HAS HELPED MAKE THE FORESTRY INDUSTRY SAFER. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE NEXT INDUSTRY THAT NEEDS TO BE TARGETED? AGRICULTURE. I MEAN, WE'VE JUST GOT THIS BLIP. ACTUALLY, THEY'VE IDENTIFIED SIX OF THE MOST DANGEROUS INDUSTRIES. WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE ` CONSTRUCTION, FARMING, FORESTRY ` AND ALL OF THOSE OTHER INDUSTRIES ACTUALLY HAVE STARTED TO MAKE AN EFFORT. SO YOU HAVE A LOOK AT CONSTRUCTION IN CHRISTCHURCH. THEY'VE ABSOLUTELY SET ABOUT HAVING NO DEATHS AND A SAFE SYSTEM, AND THEY'VE PUT HUGE AMOUNTS OF ENERGY INTO IT, LED BY FLETCHER'S, AND IT'S WORKED. FORESTRY ` HUGE EFFORT, EVEN BY THE FOREST OWNERS NOW. THE EMPLOYERS HAVE GOT THIS STANDING COMMITTEE THEY'RE GOING THROUGH. THEY'VE MADE THE EFFORT, PUSHED BY US, HUGE REDUCTION IN ACCIDENTS IN FORESTRY. FARMING ` NAH, DOING NOTHING, NO PROBLEM HERE, GOT THE MINISTER SAYING THEY'RE SAFE, AND YOU'VE GOT A BLIP NOW. THERE'S MORE ACCIDENTS THIS YEAR IN FARMING THAN THERE WERE LAST YEAR. WHY DON'T THEY WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, THEN? BECAUSE CULTURALLY THEY'VE ACCEPTED ACCIDENTS ON AGRICULTURE, IN MY VIEW, AND POOR WORKING CONDITIONS. IF YOU HAVE A LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH FARMING WAGES OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH FARMING HOURS OF WORK, IT'S LIKE 60% OF FARMERS SPENT NOTHING ON TRAINING LAST YEAR AND THEY'VE GOT THIS HUGE TURNOVER. IT'S ALMOST 80% IN FIVE YEARS. YOU KNOW, THIS IS OUR PREMIUM INDUSTRY. APART FROM THE FACT THAT THESE WORKERS ARE BEING KILLED AND PAID CRAP AND TERRIBLE HOURS AND ALL OF THAT HIGH TURNOVER, HOW ARE WE GOING TO DEVELOP A CLEAN, EFFICIENT AGRICULTURAL SECTOR IF WE DON'T HAVE ANY EXPERTISE AND ENCOURAGE PEOPLE? AFTER THE BREAK, MORE FROM HELEN KELLY WITH SOME ADVICE FOR THE UNION MOVEMENT, PLUS HER VIEWS ON EUTHANASIA. I FEEL LIKE I'M LIVING, AND AT SOME POINT THAT WILL CHANGE, AND I'LL FEEL LIKE I'M DYING, AND AT THAT POINT, I'LL REASSESS HOW I LIVE THAT PERIOD OF MY LIFE. YOU'RE BACK WITH 'THE NATION'. MORE NOW FROM OUR INTERVIEW WITH FORMER CTU BOSS HELEN KELLY. WHY DOES SHE THINK THE LEFT IS STRUGGLING TO GAIN TRACTION IN THE POLLS, AND WHAT'S GOING TO CHANGE THAT? IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE POVERTY AND HOMELESSNESS ARE FRONT AND CENTRE IN THE MEDIA, AND THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT LABOUR HAS TRADITIONALLY REPRESENTED, SO WHY AREN'T THEY GAINING ANY GROUND WHEN THESE ISSUES ARE SO PROMINENT AT THE MOMENT? WELL, I THINK THEY'RE GAINING GROUND. I DON'T THINK IT'S TRUE THAT THEY'RE NOT GAINING ANY GROUND. ON THE ISSUES, THEY ARE GAINING GROUND. WHAT THEY'VE GOT TO COME UP WITH, I THINK, IS LOUD, RED MEAT SOLUTIONS THAT ACTUALLY TACKLE... THAT PEOPLE CAN SAY, 'ACTUALLY, I KNOW THAT'S GOING TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE.' SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WE NEED A REALLY DECENT AGE-CARE POLICY IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH MEANS YOU JUST DON'T HAVE TO MOVE INTO A REST HOME. YOU COULD HAVE DECENT HOME CARE, THE HOME CARE WORKERS ARE REALLY WELL DONE, SUPPORTED. THE ASSETS THAT OLD PEOPLE LIVE IN ARE USEFUL. YOU COULD HAVE A POLICY LIKE THAT. IT'S A BOLD, RED MEAT POLICY. IT WOULD CHALLENGE THE WHOLE REST HOME SECTOR NOW, BUT THEY SHOULD BE DOING IT, AND I THINK THEY WILL. THE HOUSING POLICY ` THEY SHOULD BASICALLY SAY, THEY'RE ALMOST THERE, EVERYONE THAT QUALIFIES FOR A STATE HOUSE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET ONE. IF YOU QUALIFY, YOU MUST BE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HEAP. YOU MUST HAVE CHILDREN, YOU MUST HAVE HOUSING CRISIS, YOU MUST BE IN A PLACE WHERE HOUSING... YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CRITERIA. SO REAL THINGS THAT LISTEN TO PEOPLE. THOSE THINGS COST MONEY, THOUGH, WHICH BRINGS US BACK TO THE SHARING THING. MM-HM. ARE PEOPLE NOT PREPARED TO SHARE? ARE WE LESS WILLING TO GIVE UP SOMETHING FOR THE GREATER GOOD? NO, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE LESS. I MEAN, 62 PEOPLE HAVE MORE THAN HALF THE WORLD'S WEALTH. SO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE LESS, AND THEN SO THEY HANG ON TO WHAT THEY'VE GOT. WHEN YOU'VE SECURE AND YOU'VE GOT A DECENT JOB AND YOU KNOW IT'S GOING TO STICK AROUND AND YOU'RE MAKING PROGRESS, PEOPLE ARE MORE WILLING TO HAVE DECENT TAX SYSTEMS AND GOOD EDUCATION SYSTEMS. BUT WHEN THEY FEEL UNDER THREAT ALL THE TIME AND THEY SEE THESE INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS SYSTEMS THAT JUST EVERY YEAR CUTS THEIR PENSIONS, CUTS THEIR HOLIDAYS, CUTS THEIR WAGES, THEY HOLD ON TO THEM AND THEY START LOOKING AROUND FOR PEOPLE TO BLAME WHO THREATEN THEM. AND I THINK FOR THE POOR, THEY DON'T NECESSARILY LOOK TO THE RICH. YOU KNOW, THEY LOOK AT EACH OTHER, OR THEY LOOK SIDEWAYS, OR THEY LOOK ONE GENERATION UP. SO DO YOU THINK THERE'LL BE A FOURTH-TERM NATIONAL GOVERNMENT? NO, I DON'T. I THINK LABOUR WILL WIN THE NEXT ELECTION. IT'LL BE A LABOUR-GREEN` SERIOUSLY? > I DO. I THINK LABOUR-GREEN WILL WIN THE NEXT ELECTION. YOU KNOW, SOME SORT OF COALITION OF THOSE PARTIES. I THINK THERE'S A CHANGE ON, YEAH. PEOPLE WOULD SAY YOU'RE AN OPTIMISTIC PERSON. WHAT HAVE I GOT TO BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT? I WON'T EVEN SEE IT, RIGHT? (LAUGHS) I WON'T BE HERE TO VOTE FOR IT. BUT THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE. I'M JUST AS GUESSING AS ANYONE ELSE, BUT MY FEELING IS THAT PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO SEE THE HARD SIDE OF THESE AUSTERITY MEASURES, OF THESE CUTS, OF THESE HOUSING ISSUES. WOULD YOU BE STANDING AT THE NEXT ELECTION IF YOU WEREN'T SICK? YES, I WOULD. I WAS GOING TO STAND AT THE LAST ELECTION. THANK GOODNESS I DIDN'T. SO THAT'S UNFINISHED BUSINESS FOR YOU? WELL, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE FINISHED. IT'S NOT MY BE ALL AND END ALL POLITICAL AMBITION. I'M NOT DYING AS A TRAGIC FIGURE WHO NEVER GO TO RUN THE COUNTRY. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE MADE YOUR PRIORITY, THOUGH? > IF I'D BEEN IN PARLIAMENT? YEAH. > THE TOPICS I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN ARE EDUCATION AND LABOUR RIGHTS, SO I GUESS THAT'S WHAT I WOULD'VE GONE INTO. SO, FIGHTING FOR ALL THESE CAUSES, ARGUABLY YOU'VE GOT TO GET A BIT ANGRY, YOU'VE GOT TO WORK YOURSELF UP TO FIGHT FOR OTHER PEOPLE AND YOU NEED TO BE INVESTED ENOUGH. DOESN'T THAT TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF ENERGY? YEAH, BUT THIS IS A MOVEMENT. YOU KNOW, SOCIAL MOVEMENTS THAT HAVE GOT STRONG VALUES ARE NOT DEPENDENT ON INDIVIDUALS. LIKE, YOU COULDN'T TELL ME... OR YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO, BUT WHO'S THE HEAD OF GREENPEACE INTERNATIONAL, WHO'S THE HEAD OF AMNESTY? MAYBE YOU COULDN'T TELL ME THAT, BUT YOU COULD TELL ME WHAT THEIR VALUES ARE, WHAT THEY'RE STANDING FOR, WHAT THEY'RE FIGHTING FOR. EVERY FAMILY COULD REPEAT THOSE VALUES, AND THAT'S WHAT WE WANT FOR THE UNION MOVEMENT. WE DON'T NEED TO BE OBSESSED WITH WHO'S LEADING IT, WHO'S THE PARTY LEADER, WHO'S THIS, WHO'S THAT. WE NEED STRONG VALUED PROPOSITIONS THAT WORKERS IDENTIFY WITH AND SEE US REPRESENTING THEM, AND THAT'S BEEN MY GOAL ALWAYS. BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO BE HERE TO VOTE IN THE NEXT ELECTION, BUT YOU'VE TAKEN ON EUTHANASIA, YOU'RE NOW MEDICAL CANNABIS, YOU CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR WORKERS' RIGHTS. DO YOU EVER FEEL THAT ACTUALLY, 'NAH, I JUST WANT TO LOUNGE AROUND, WANT TO LOUNGE AROUND AND SPEND SOME TIME WITH MY FAMILY'? YOU'RE A LONG TIME DEAD, RIGHT? (LAUGHS) I DON'T WANT TO LOUNGE AROUND. THAT'S THE LAST THING I WANT TO DO. I WANT ENERGY AND TO DO THE STUFF I CARE ABOUT. AND I SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH MY FAMILY. HONESTLY, MY FAMILY'S JUST COME FROM AROUND THE WORLD, THEY'VE BEEN AVAILABLE. I'VE HAD A WONDERFUL YEAR. THIS IS A CRAZY THING TO SAY BECAUSE I'M DYING AND I'M SICK, BUT I'VE CAUGHT UP WITH PEOPLE, OLD SCHOOL MATES, YOU KNOW, WE GOT MARRIED, BLAH BLAH BLAH. SO IT'S A REAL MIXED TIME, ACTUALLY. AND SO IT'S NOT LIKE I'M SACRIFICING ANYTHING TO DO THIS WORK. THIS IS WORK I DO. BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY TO THEMSELVES OR THEY THINK, 'IF I FOUND OUT THAT MY LIFE WAS GOING TO END IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS, I'D PACK UP, 'I'D BUY AN OVERSEAS TICKET, OFF I GO.' BUT YOU'VE KEPT DOING WHAT YOU'VE ALWAYS BEEN DOING. YEAH, BUT PEOPLE DON'T DO THAT. AND I THINK IT'S ALL THESE FILMS AND EXPECTATIONS ABOUT PEOPLE DYING. HAVE A BUCKET LIST, YOU KNOW. TICK IT OFF. JUMP OUT OF A HELICOPTER. WELL, YOU KNOW, WHO WANTS TO DO THAT? ACTUALLY, WHEN YOU ASK PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT TO DO, THEY WANT TO BE COMFORTABLE. THAT'S THE BIGGEST THING. THEY WANT TO SPEND TIME WITH PEOPLE THEY LOVE. THEY WANT TO GET THEIR LIFE IN ORDER. THEY WANT TO KEEP WORKING, YOU KNOW. AND SO I'M NO DIFFERENT. AND THEN THE OTHER THING ON THAT IS THAT YOU'VE KNOWN SINCE FEBRUARY... LAST YEAR. YEAH. OVER A YEAR. OVER A YEAR. IS IT A BURDEN TO KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME LEFT, OR IS IT A BLESSING TO KNOW THAT? IT'S NICE TO HAVE TIME BEFORE YOU DIE. THAT'S A BLESSING. YOU IMAGINE JUST GETTING HIT BY A BUS AND EVERYTHING'S CHAOTIC, RIGHT. APART FROM THE TRAUMA OF THAT, YOU DON'T GET TO SAY GOODBYE TO ANYONE, YOU DON'T GET TO ORGANISE ANYTHING. AND SO IT IS LOVELY TO BE ABLE TO THINK ABOUT THINGS AND CONNECT WITH PEOPLE AND ALL OF THAT. BUT IT'S ALSO A HUGE INTERRUPTION, RIGHT. I HATE TO SAY IT, IT'S NOT HOW I DEPICT IT, REALLY, BUT IT'S A HUGE INTERRUPTION IN YOUR LIFE TO SUDDENLY HAVE A LIMITED PERIOD AND TO HAVE TO FIT TREATMENT AND FIT ILLNESS INTO THAT BUSY, BUSY LIFE. I MEAN, I'VE SAID IT A LOT OF TIMES, BUT I FEEL LIKE I'M LIVING, AND AT SOME POINT THAT WILL CHANGE AND I'LL FEEL LIKE I'M DYING. AND AT THAT POINT I'LL REASSESS HOW I LIVE THAT PERIOD OF MY LIFE. BUT AT THE MOMENT I WANT TO DO WHAT I WANT TO DO, AND I CAN DO WHAT I WANT TO DO. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY REASSESS? BECAUSE YOU'VE SPOKEN OUT ABOUT PEOPLE'S RIGHTS TO USE EUTHANASIA. YEAH. I'M INTERESTED IN EUTHANASIA NOT REALLY FOR MYSELF. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER I WOULD... I MIGHT. WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO ME. I HAVEN'T EVEN REALLY LOOKED AT HOW I'M GOING TO DIE. AND IF I WAS REALLY SICK ENOUGH AND I HAD SUCH A POOR QUALITY OF LIFE, WHY NOT? BUT I'D LIKE IT AVAILABLE, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE MAKE IT AVAILABLE AND THEN DON'T USE IT. BUT I CAN'T IMAGINE MYSELF AT NIGHT ONE NIGHT THINKING, 'WELL, TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT. I'M GOING TO DO IT.' BUT I WANT IT AS AN OPTION, AND I KNOW THAT FOR SOME PEOPLE, THEIR LIFE, THEY ARE DYING; THEY'RE NOT LIVING. AND WHY DO WE KEEP THEM ALIVE IF THEY DON'T WANT TO BE? FOR YOU IT'S ABOUT CHOICE. > IT'S ABOUT CHOICE, IT'S ABOUT HUMANITY. EVEN IF IT'S NOT A CHOICE THAT YOU WOULD WANT? YEAH. AND HONESTLY, EVERY CHOICE WE MAKE LIKE THAT IS TOUGH, TOUGH AS HELL. WHETHER WE GIVE KIDS A HEART TRANSPLANT, WHETHER WE... THEY'RE ALL ETHICAL CHOICES, AND THEY'RE ALL ABOUT PRIORITIES AND WHAT'S VIABLE AND FEASIBLE. EUTHANASIA'S NO DIFFERENT. THERE'S SOME RISKS WITH IT, BIG RISKS WITH IT, SOME HUGE BENEFITS WITH IT, AND WE JUST HAVE TO MANAGE IT. IT'S LIKE CANNABIS. IF THERE'S ONE BIT OF BUSINESS THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET TO FINISH YOURSELF THAT YOU WANT SOMEONE ELSE TO FINISH, WHAT IS THAT BUSINESS? THE HEALTH AND SAFETY STUFF. SO THAT'S A PROJECT I WANT TO SET UP SO THAT IT CONTINUES ON WITH THE SAME INTENSITY AROUND HELPING FAMILIES WHO HAVE LOST SOMEONE AT WORK, BECAUSE THAT'S THE GAP. WE CAN DEAL WITH THE ACCIDENTS, THE INVESTIGATIONS, THE PROSECUTIONS, BUT, ACTUALLY, HOW FAMILIES GET INVOLVED IN THAT IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT. SO WHAT I'D LIKE TO SEE IS A STANDING GROUP SET UP BY THOSE FAMILIES THAT HAVE GOT ACTIVE, AND EVERY TIME THERE IS A DEATH, THEY CONTACT THE FAMILY, THEY GIVE THEM INFORMATION, THEY HELP THEM THROUGH ALL THAT PROCESS, AND THEY WOULD KEEP THE LOBBYING GOING ON HEALTH AND SAFETY. AND FARM SAFETY IS THE AREA I'D LIKE TO CRACK. YOU KNOW, IF I COULD SEE THAT ACCIDENT RATE COMING DOWN ON A SENSIBLE TRAJECTORY, I KNOW THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF A REAL CHANGE. THAT'S THE FIRST SYMPTOM. AND IN FORESTRY, THE ACCIDENT RATE'S DECREASED BY 60% IN ABOUT THREE YEARS. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S 60% OF PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T NEED TO BE HURT IN FORESTRY THREE YEARS AGO, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. YOU ARE ONE PERSISTENT WOMAN. (LAUGHS) I TRY TO BE. PERSISTENCE IS THE KEY. YEAH. HEY, IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE, AS ALWAYS. THANK YOU. YOU'RE WELCOME. NICE TO TALK TO YOU. WELL, I THINK THE REMARKABLE THING THAT STOOD OUT FOR ME TALKING TO HELEN KELLY THERE IS EVEN IN THE LIMITED TIME THAT SHE HAS LEFT, SHE IS STICKING TO HER CAUSES, THAT IS THE STRENGTH OF HER CONVICTION. WELL, WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. DO STAY WITH US. YOU'RE BACK WITH 'THE NATION' AND OUR PANEL ` FORMER CABINET MINISTER TURNED RESTAURATEUR LAILA HARRE, AGRIBUSINESS NZ CHAIR CONOR ENGLISH AND NEWSHUB POLITICAL REPORTER MAIKI SHERMAN. WELCOME TO YOU ALL. WE HEARD THERE FROM THE HASTINGS MAYOR, LAWRENCE YULE. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CRITICISM ABOUT HOW THAT GASTRO OUTBREAK HAS BEEN HANDLED. HOW DO YOU THINK THAT IT'S BEEN HANDLED, LAILA? WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT HIGHLIGHTS THE FACT THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THE DHB AND THE COUNCIL ARE SUBSIDIARIES OF CENTRAL GOVERNMENT HERE. AND AT THE VERY LEAST, THERE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN THIS KIND OF DEAL WITH IT IN ALL THESE DIFFERENT, UM, SILOS, I GUESS IS THE TRENDY TERM. YEAH. > UM, BUT WHAT IS APPARENTLY CLEAR IS THAT AT LEAST SOME POINT SEVERAL HOURS BEFORE THERE WAS ANY PUBLIC NOTIFICATION THERE WAS AN AWARENESS THAT IT WAS LIKELY THAT THIS OUTBREAK WAS BEING SPREAD THROUGH DRINKING WATER SUPPLIES. AND IT DOES SOUND LIKE THERE WAS A DELAY, AN UNNECESSARY DELAY, IN GIVING THE PUBLIC THE INFORMATION THEY NEEDED TO PROTECT THEMSELVES. MAIKI, DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO STEP IN IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS? I MEAN, YOU HAD JONATHAN COLEMAN ` HE SAYS IT'S NOT` A WATER EMERGENCY IS A SLIDING SCALE. 4000 PEOPLE ` ISN'T THAT ENOUGH TO...? WELL, Y` WELL, THAT'S, UM` OBVIOUSLY, WE'VE HEARD BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT. THAT'S WHAT LABOUR'S PUSHING FOR ` WATER EMERGENCY. THEY RECKON THAT THAT WILL HELP BUSINESSES ALSO, YOU KNOW, HAVE SOME SORT OF STANDING WHEN IT COMES TO COMPENSATION, SO OBVIOUSLY THOSE WILL BE SOME RED FLAGS, UM, NOT ONLY FOR THE GOVERNMENT BUT FOR THE COUNCIL AS WELL. AND JUST COMING BACK ON THE NOTIFICATION, I'D BE INTERESTED TO HEAR FROM THE DHB AS TO WHY THEY WEREN'T FRONT-FOOTING THE PUBLIC WARNINGS ABOUT THE POTENTIAL OUTBREAK OF THIS SERIOUS ILLNESS WHEN THEY RECEIVED THE INFORMATION AND SENT IT OUT IN THAT EMAIL AT MIDDAY. I MEAN, WE HEARD FROM THE MAYOR TODAY BUT ABSOLUTELY KEEN TO HEAR FROM THE DHB ON THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE THE HEALTH EXPERTS, THEY HAD ALL THE SIGNS, AND I'M INTERESTED TO KNOW WHY THEY DIDN'T PUT OUT SOME SORT OF WARNING AROUND MIDDAY. JUST TO BOIL THE WATER AS A PRECAUTIONARY MEASURE? ABSOLUTELY. YEAH. THE OTHER THING, CONOR, IS WE NOW KNOW THAT IT'S LIKELY THAT THESE BORES HAVE BEEN, UM, CONTAMINATED BY EITHER COW POO, SHEEP POO OR DEER, YOU KNOW, AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO POINT THE FINGER AT FARMING, AREN'T THEY? WELL, I DON'T THINK YOU DO KNOW THAT, ACTUALLY. I MEAN, YOU'VE STILL GOT AN INVESTIGATION UNDERWAY, AND I THINK IT WAS MIKE JOY WHO SAID WE MAY NEVER KNOW WHAT THE CAUSE OF IT WAS. BUT IT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO KNOW THAT. I MEAN, THERE'S ALSO HUMAN WASTE THAT CAN BE AN ISSUE IN THIS SORT OF THING TOO. SO I THINK THAT'S` YOU KNOW, THE INVESTIGATION THAT'S GETTING UNDERWAY NEXT WEEK, I THINK IT WILL BE REALLY HELPFUL TO DETERMINE WHAT THOSE CAUSES ARE, AND IT COULD HIGHLIGHT ISSUES THAT ALL COUNCILS ROUND THE COUNTRY PAY MORE ATTENTION TO. BUT THEY HAVE SAID` THE REPORT THAT CAME OUT IN THE LAST 24 HOURS HAS SAID THAT THE FAECAL CONTAMINATION IS LIKELY FROM THOSE SOURCES. WELL, LOOK, I DON'T KNOW. I THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD FROM THE MAYOR THAT IT SAID IT WASN'T CHICKEN` NO, NOT CHICKEN. NOT CHICKEN BUT LIKELY COW. THE DNA CAME BACK TO` LIKELY COW, SHEEP OR DEER, AND OBVIOUSLY MIKE JOY IS SAYING THERE ALSO, YOU HEARD, THAT WE'RE INTENSIFYING AT A TOO GREAT A RATE AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE. WELL, I THINK THERE'S A` THAT'S A BIT OF AN OVERSIMPLIFICATION, ISN'T IT, AND YOU NEED TO BE, IF YOU'RE GOING TO JUMP TO A SOLUTION, YOU NEED TO ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PROBLEM IS. AND, YOU KNOW, THE PROBLEM STILL NEEDS TO BE DETERMINED HERE. IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S GETTING DOWN A BORE, THERE'S NO SHEEP AND CATTLE AND DEER WANDERING AROUND AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BORE, SO SOMETHING'S OBVIOUSLY GETTING DOWN THERE SOMEHOW, UH, SO MAYBE IT'S THE PROTECTION OF THE BORE, YOU KNOW, THE HEAD OF THE BORE THAT HASN'T BEEN PROTECTED AND THERE'S SOMETHING FLOWING DOWN THERE. MIKE JOY WAS REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THIS. THERE IS PLENTY OF INTERNATIONAL PRECEDENT FOR REMOVING LIVESTOCK ANIMALS FROM CATCHMENT AREAS. AND, I MEAN, JUST GOING BACK TO HELEN KELLY'S INTERVIEW A MOMENT AGO ON THE ACCIDENT RATE IN FARMING, IT'S LIKE WE JUST HAVE THIS SORT OF CASUAL APPROACH TO THE IMPACT OF AGRICULTURAL BUSINESS, ON PEOPLE'S LIVES, ON ENVIRONMENTAL, UM, PURITY, ON PUBLIC HEALTH NOW. I MEAN, I HOPE THAT THE REACTION ISN'T LET'S JUST ISOLATE IT ALL DOWN TO THIS INCIDENT. LET'S LOOK MORE BROADLY AT THE IMPACT OF AGRICULTURAL INTENSIFICATION ON WELL-BEING ACROSS ALL THESE AREAS. I THINK THAT DISCUSSION'S GOING TO BE PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT FOR NZERS BECAUSE FARMING AND AGRICULTURE IS SO INTRINSIC, UM, TO OUR FABRIC. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, GUMBOOTS AND SWANDRIS AND, YOU KNOW, RUGBY SHORTS. IT'S JUST PART OF THE 'NUMBER EIGHT WIRE' FABRIC OF NZ. SO TO HAVE THAT KIND OF DISCUSSION TO MOVE AWAY FROM AGRICULTURE IS A DIFFICULT ONE TO HAVE IN A COUNTRY THAT'S SO RELIANT NOT ONLY ECONOMICALLY BUT CULTURALLY` DO WE HAVE A CASUAL ATTITUDE TO THE IMPACT OF AGRICULTURE, DO YOU THINK, CONOR? UH, NO, I DON'T, BUT IT'S LIKE` IT'S LIKE ANY SECTOR. YOU CAN ALWAYS IMPROVE, AND THE POINTS THAT HELEN KELLY MADE ABOUT THE FARM SAFETY, FOR EXAMPLE, I WOULD TOTALLY AGREE WITH HER THAT, YOU KNOW, FARMERS DO NEED TO STEP UP AND PEOPLE IN THE RURAL SECTOR DO NEED TO STEP UP AND VALUE THEIR EMPLOYEES AND THEIR STAFF A LOT MORE AND PUT TRAINING IN TO MAKING SURE THEY'RE SAFE ON THEIR FARMS. THEY DO HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT. I THINK THAT'S ACTUALLY REALLY IMPORTANT. IF MY KIDS WERE WORKING ON A FARM, I WOULD EXPECT THAT WORKPLACE TO BE A SAFE WORKPLACE. SO` BUT IN TERMS OF THIS WATER, I THINK YOU'VE GOT TO BE CAREFUL YOU'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, OVERREACTING TO SAY THAT WE'VE GOT TO GET RID OF ALL ANIMALS IN NZ BECAUSE WE'VE GOT SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE SICK` THAT ISN'T THE POINT HE WAS MAKING. HE WAS TALKING ABOUT REMOVING ANIMALS FROM CATCHMENTS, WHICH HAS BEEN DONE AROUND THE WORLD AND REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE THE HIGHEST RATES OF GASTRO BUGS CARRIED BY WATER IN THE ENTIRE INDUSTRIALISED WORLD. WELL, THE WELLINGTON WATER SYSTEM ` THERE'S NO ANIMALS IN THAT CATCHMENT. AND I THINK THE ISSUE HERE IS YOU'VE GOT` AND WHAT IS THE RATE OF CAMPYLOBACTER IN THE WELLINGTON WATER SUPPLY? YEAH, BUT THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. I DON'T THINK THERE'S A` IT'S ZERO. LOOK, I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU, LAILA. ALL I'M SAYING IS WE'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THIS WATER'S COMING FROM. WE'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THE CATCHMENT IS. THE CATCHMENT FOR THIS ` WHERE IS THE CATCHMENT FOR IT? I SUPPOSE THE BIGGER ISSUE IS WHO DO WE NEED` WHO SHOULD WE BE RELYING ON TO ENSURE THAT OUR WATER IS SAFE? SHOULD IT BE SOMETHING THAT EACH OF THESE COUNCILS ARE DEALING WITH OR SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE THE BODY THAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS? WELL, THE GOVERNMENT SETS THE HIGH-LEVEL STUFF, AND THE LOCAL COUNCILS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO IMPLEMENT OR OPERATIONALISE THAT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT, I GUESS, IS YET TO BE FOUND OUT IN THIS WHOLE SITUATION IS HOW DID THE OPERATION`? WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE OPERATIONS OF NOTIFICATION AND MAKING DECISIONS, BUT WHAT WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT IS WHAT IS THE OPERATIONS LIKE ACTUALLY WITH THOSE PIPES? I MEAN, THEY'VE HAD SOME EARLIER ISSUES OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS. THEY'VE HAD SOME REPORT THAT TOOK, YOU KNOW, NINE MONTHS TO GET. YEAH. > UM, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN DOING AS A COUNCIL TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE JUST, YOU KNOW` THEY'RE BEST PRACTICE, FOR EXAMPLE? JUST BEFORE WE GO TO THE BREAK, MAIKI, LOCAL GOVERNMENT ELECTIONS ` THIS COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED, PRESUMABLY, AT A WORSE TIME FOR SOME OF THESE LOCAL POLITICIANS. ABSOLUTELY. AND I THINK THE MAYOR WILL BE FEELING THE HEAT ON THAT ONE. I THINK, JUST QUICKLY, OBVIOUSLY IT'S GOING TO TAKE A COMBINED EFFORT BETWEEN CENTRAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF WHO SETS THE GUIDELINES AROUND THAT. I THINK, IMPORTANTLY, THE MESSAGING AND GETTING THE WARNINGS OUT TO THE PUBLIC, BECAUSE THAT WAS VERY MUCH IMPORTANT, THAT NEEDS TO COME FROM CENTRAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT DISCUSSIONS BECAUSE IT'S SOMETHING THAT OBVIOUSLY NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED SO THAT IF ANYTHING HAPPENS THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, THAT THAT'S, YOU KNOW` WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A PLAN IN PLACE THAT'S GOING TO BE` WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE. ALL RIGHT, WE'VE JUST GOT TO GO TO THE BREAK. AFTER THE BREAK, A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TAKE ON THE WEEK FROM JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO WITH POLITICS IN 60 SECONDS. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH THE NATION AND OUR PANEL. UM, INTERESTING THIS WEEK, THEY'VE LAUNCHED THE VULNERABLE CHILDREN'S MINISTRY, AND THE, UH, CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER SAID HE WANTS THAT NAME TO WITHER AND DIE. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF IT, LAILA? WELL, I THINK THE NAME IS GOING TO BE A SORT OF WIDESPREAD SOURCE OF ATTACK ON THE GOVERNMENT, AND MY` MY` MY GUESS WILL BE THAT IT WILL CHANGE THROUGH THE SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS. BUT THE ARGUMENT OVER THE NAME REALLY DISGUISES THAT IS A VERY WORRYING AND VERY RADICAL TRANSFORMATION OF OUR CHILD WELFARE AND PROTECTION SERVICES. I'M AMAZED THAT THERE ISN'T MUCH MORE OF AN OUTCRY FROM PEOPLE TRADITIONALLY CONCERNED, PARTICULARLY MAORI COMMUNITIES, ABOUT THE WAY THAT CHILDREN ARE TREATED WITHIN THE PROCESS OF PROTECTION AND CARE. THIS IS, ACROSS THE BOARD, A MASSIVE CONTRACTING OUT BY THE STATE OF RESPONSIBILITIES FOR THE CARE AND PROTECTION OF CHILDREN, A COMPLETE TRAVESTY OF, UM, WHAT WE'VE LEARNT ABOUT GOOD SOCIAL PRACTICE AND A HUGE RISK TO VULNERABLE CHILDREN. I MEAN, ANNE TOLLEY WOULD DENY OUTRIGHT THAT IT'S CONTRACTING OUT, AND IN FACT SHE SAID, I THINK IT WAS ON FRIDAY, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO` SHE PLANS TO INTRODUCE TARGETS FOR LOWERING THE NUMBER OF MAORI CHILDREN IN` IN CARE. I MEAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT, MAIKI? WHAT I` I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING AND WILL DEFINITELY HOLD THE MINISTERS TO THAT, BUT, UM, WHAT I THINK IS INTERESTING IS THE COMMENTS THAT SHE'S MADE AROUND, UM` THAT THIS NEW MINISTRY WILL BE THE SINGLE POINT OF ACCOUNTABILITY, UH, WHEN IT COMES TO VULNERABLE CHILDREN, AND OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, MANY OF US WOULD'VE THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S JUST A GIVEN, BUT, UM, WE'VE SEEN THAT THAT HASN'T ACTUALLY BEEN THE CASE WHEN YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT AGENCIES INVOLVED WITH A VULNERABLE CHILD AND NOT ONE OF THEM ARE TAKING PARTICULAR OVERSIGHT OF THAT CHILD'S LIFE, SO TO HAVE THE MINISTER COME OUT AND PUT THE STAKE IN THE GROUND AND SAY, 'ACTUALLY, WE WILL TAKE OWNERSHIP OF THESE CHILDREN AND OVERSIGHT OF THEIR LIVES 'AND BE HELD RESPONSIBLE AND ACCOUNTABLE, UM, FOR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER HAPPENS TO THESE CHILDREN,' I THINK IS ACTUALLY VERY VERY IMPORTANT. UM, SO` SO THAT'S GOOD TO SEE THAT COME FROM THE MINISTER. YEAH. LET'S MOVE ON TO, UM` LET'S MOVE ON TO EDUCATION, CONOR. IT'S SOMETHING CLOSE TO YOUR HEART, UM, KIDS GOING OFF TO TERTIARY EDUCATION. THIS WEEK NZ INSTITUTE SAYS STUDENT FREE LOANS ARE` 'MM, THEY DON'T WORK. GET RID OF THEM,' DAVID SEYMOUR SAYS. WELL, THEY SHOULD PUT SIX KIDS THROUGH, UH` THROUGH UNIVERSITY. I'VE GOT THREE THERE AT THE MOMENT, AND, UM, PERSONALLY, I THINK STUDENT FREE LOANS ARE` SORRY, INTEREST-FREE LOANS FOR STUDENTS ARE` INCREASE THE ACCESSIBILITY, UH, FOR EVERYONE, YOU KNOW, RIGHT ACROSS SOCIETY. SO WHETHER YOU'VE GOT NO MONEY OR LOTS OF MONEY, YOU CAN GET A LOAN AND YOU CAN GO AND, UH, CHANGE YOUR LIFE BY GETTING A GOOD EDUCATION. BUT DO THEY? COS SOME PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE THAT THEY ARE FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS, WHO CAN AFFORD TO PAY THEM BACK. LAILA. WELL, UNIVERSITY EDUCATION HAS BECOME INCREASINGLY ACCESSIBLE MAINLY TO THE MIDDLE CLASS, AND THAT IS OFTEN DUE TO THE COST AND THE` YOU KNOW, THE PERCEIVED LACK OF BENEFIT UM, I MEAN, I'M ONE OF THOSE DINOSAURS WHO SUPPORTS FREE TERTIARY EDUCATION, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S RIDICULOUS THAT WE'RE GETTING INTO THIS SORT OF ARGUMENT OVER ALLOCATING A DIMINISHING PUBLIC RESOURCE IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, THE RESOURCE AVAILABLE FOR DOING ALL THE IMPORTANT THINGS THAT THE STATE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR. UM, UNIVERSAL, PUBLIC EDUCATION, PROGRESSIVE TAXATION ` THE TWO WENT HAND IN HAND EFFECTIVELY TO GIVE EVERYBODY ACCESS. I AGREE, THE STUDENT-LOAN SCHEME'S A CROCK, UM, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE EVENT THAT WE ARE CHARGING PEOPLE FOR EDUCATION, YOU HAVE TO GIVE PEOPLE ACCESS TO` TO A GOOD LOAN SYSTEM TO PAY FOR IT. MAIKI. I HAVE HEARD, UM, STORIES JUST THIS WEEK WHEN THIS CAME OUT OF, UM, YOU KNOW, FROM FORMER` UH, FROM FRIENDS OF MINE WHO'VE SAID THAT THEIR PARENTS HAVE ACTUALLY USED THAT MONEY ` EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE GOING TO PAY FOR THEIR CHILDREN'S FEES ` USED THAT MONEY, UH, BECAUSE IT'S INTEREST-FREE, SO IT'S BASICALLY AN INTEREST-FREE LOAN. SO THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE ABUSING THE SYSTEM, BUT THERE IS ALSO GENUINE NEED THERE ` UM, MYSELF FOR INSTANCE. YOU KNOW, IT WAS GREAT THAT I COULD PAY OFF MY STUDENT LOAN A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. I COULD'VE BEEN STILL PAYING IT OFF IF IT WASN'T INTEREST-FREE. YEAH. THE OTHER THING I WANT TO TALK ABOUT BEFORE WE GO IS THE NEW SPYING LAWS AND THE FACT THAT, WELL, THERE WILL BE THE POWER TO SPY ON NZERS. ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT, LAILA? WELL, YOU KNOW, WE WENT THROUGH TWO YEARS AGO THE SORT OF PROCESS OF TOTAL DENIAL THAT NEW LEGISLATION AT THAT TIME WOULD ENABLE MASS SURVEILLANCE AND TARGETING ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS OF ALL NZERS. WE RAPIDLY FOUND OUT THAT WE HAD ALREADY BEEN ENGAGED IN THE PROCESS OF SHARING INFORMATION ABOUT ALL OF US WITH THE NSA AND THE OTHER FIVE EYES PARTNERS. SO YOU THINK WE'RE ON THE SLIPPERY SLOPE, DO YOU? WELL, IT'S LIKE EVERYTHING THAT REALLY MATTERED TO US TWO YEARS AGO, AND I'M LOOKING HERE AT OPPOSITION PARTIES LIKE LABOUR AND THE GREENS, ACTUALLY STOOD IN FULL TOWN HALLS AND OPPOSED THAT LEGISLATION. NOW INCREDIBLY QUIET ABOUT IT ABOUT A COMPLETE LEGITIMISATION OF WHAT WE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT AT THAT TIME. BUT, CONOR, IS IT SOMETHING THAT KEEPS YOU AWAKE AT NIGHT? WELL, LOOK, AS A CITIZEN, YOU EXPECT THE GOVERNMENT TO DEFEND AND PROTECT YOU, DON'T YOU? SO THEY HAVE A POLICE FORCE, THEY HAVE A MILITARY FORCE, AND NOW WITH INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, THERE'S OTHER METHODS THAT THEY ARE DEPLOYING. AND THERE IS THAT CHALLENGE BETWEEN HOW DO YOU PROTECT SOCIETY FROM SOME INDIVIDUAL GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY PERFORM SOME TERRORIST ACT? AND EVERYONE, IN HINDSIGHT, SAYS, 'WELL, WHY DIDN'T THE GOVERNMENT PICK UP THIS MAD GUY BEFORE HE DID SOME BOMB SOMEWHERE?' SO IT IS A CHALLENGING ACT` TOUGH BALANCING ACT, YES. OK. BUT I WOULDN'T LIKE TO THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS LISTENING TO EVERYTHING I DID OR SAID TO EVERYONE ELSE IN MY LIFE. ALL RIGHT, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. AND THAT'S THE SERIOUS TAKE ON THE WEEK'S EVENTS. BUT NOW HERE'S A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT VIEW FROM JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT HEED THE DRUG FOUNDATION POLL AND DECRIMINALISE CANNABIS? WELL, I THINK THEY'RE ALREADY SMOKING THE STUFF, MATE. I MEAN, HOW ELSE DO YOU EXPLAIN THE 10 PIZZAS BEING DELIVERED TO THE BEEHIVE FOR NATHAN GUY? AND THE SHORT-TERM MEMORY LOSS. I MEAN, JOHN KEY KEEPS FORGETTING HE'S ALREADY GOT A TIE, BUYS ANOTHER ONE. APPARENTLY NOW HE'S GOT HUNDREDS. MM. AND THE SHORT-TERM MEMORY LOSS. THE JOHN KEY BUYING THE TIE THING. YEP. AND THIS IS INTERESTING. ON THE PARLIAMENTARY EXPENSES LIST, WINSTON PETERS IS NUMBER THREE. OH. MOST OF THAT APPARENTLY 'TRAVELLING TO NORTHLAND'. CODE. YEAH. WONDER HOW MANY OTHER MPs ARE 'TRAVELLING TO NORTHLAND'. MAYBE WE SHOULD DECRIMINALISE IT. PERHAPS THEY DON'T TRUST THE POLL AND WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT THE NZ PUBLIC THINK IN THEIR OWN HOMES. HOW? WELL, THE GCSB. I MEAN, IT'S A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY. HOW DO YOU MAKE SMOKING MARIJUANA A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY? EASY. JUST REDEFINE NATIONAL SECURITY. YOU CAN SPY ON ANYONE. AH. CLEVER. WORRYING NEWS, THOUGH ` THE GOVERNMENT SEEMS TO HAVE FORGOTTEN EXACTLY HOW MUCH MONEY BENEFICIARIES HAVE BORROWED TO STAY IN MOTELS. AH. BUT. BUT WHAT? BEST OLYMPICS EVER. IT HAS BEEN, HASN'T IT? BUT, NO, PAUL, THIS IS BAD. WE'VE WRITTEN OFF $6B IN INTEREST IN STUDENT LOANS. MM. TRUE. STILL, BEST OLYMPICS EVER. IT IS THE BEST OLYMPICS EVER. MIND YOU, AUSTRALIA NOT DOING AS WELL AS THEY HOPED. MM. BOTH: BEST OLYMPICS EVER. AND THAT'S ALL WE HAVE TIME FOR TODAY. NEXT WEEK WE'LL CHECK IN ON THE US PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN WITH JAMES FALLOWS FROM 'THE ATLANTIC'. UNTIL NEXT TIME, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. DO ENJOY THE REST OF YOUR WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY DESNEY SHAW, SARAH MAIAVA AND PIPPA JEFFERIES. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 THIS PROGRAMME WAS MADE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE NZ ON AIR PLATINUM FUND.