MORENA, GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED, AND TODAY WE'RE TALKING IMMIGRATION AND THE GROWING DEBATE ON ITS IMPACT. THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE MOVING HERE IS AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH. TOO MANY OR NOT ENOUGH? ARE WE BRINGING IN PEOPLE WITH THE SKILLS OUR ECONOMY NEEDS? IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOODHOUSE IS OUR LEAD INTERVIEW TODAY. IS IT NOT TIME TO CUT OUR IMMIGRATION LEVELS? STILL WITH IMMIGRATION, AND A NEW PARTY WHICH IS ALL ABOUT IMMIGRANTS WILL LAUNCH NEXT MONTH. THE NZ PEOPLE'S PARTY WANTS TO REPRESENT INDIAN AND ASIAN VOTERS AND HAS BIG PLANS FOR THE NEXT ELECTION. I'LL SPEAK TO ITS LEADER, ROSHAN NAUHRIA. THEN WE TALK TO LORD MICHAEL HASTINGS, KPMG'S GLOBAL HEAD OF CORPORATE CITIZENSHIP. HE'S BEEN VISITING NZ TO TALK ABOUT THE DESPERATE NEED FOR CLEAN WATER IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES AND WAS A LITTLE SURPRISED TO FIND WE'RE FACING A FEW ISSUES OF OUR OWN. I'D ALWAYS MADE THE ASSUMPTION, BECAUSE OF NZ'S ENORMOUS RIVER QUALITY AND WATER SUSTAINABILITY AND THE EMPHASISE ON GOOD ENVIRONMENT HERE, AND THE EMPHASIS ON GOOD ENVIRONMENT HERE, THOSE ISSUES WOULD NOT ARISE. DUE TO THE LIVE NATURE OF Q+A, WE APOLOGISE FOR THE LACK OF CAPTIONS FOR SOME ITEMS. AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY; ANJUM RAHMAN FROM THE ISLAMIC WOMEN'S COUNCIL, TRUSTEE OF SHAMA, THE HAMILTON ETHNIC WOMEN'S CENTRE, AND A FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE; AND MICHAEL BARNETT, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE AUCKLAND CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. NET MIGRATION HAS CONTINUED TO SET NEW RECORDS THIS YEAR, ALTHOUGH ECONOMISTS BELIEVE IT MAY BE CLOSE TO A PEAK. EVEN SO, THERE'S SOME DEBATE ABOUT THE IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION AND WHETHER WE ARE SEEING THE BENEFITS THE POLITICIANS PROMISE. AND IT'S NOT JUST WINSTON PETERS RAISING THAT FLAG. THERE'S BEEN CONCERN FROM LABOUR, ECONOMISTS, BUSINESS LEADERS AND EVEN TREASURY AND THE RESERVE BANK. SO CORIN DANN ASKED IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOODHOUSE WHETHER HE BELIEVED IT WAS TIME FOR A DEBATE. ABSOLUTELY. IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT DEBATE TO HAVE ABOUT WHO COMES, WHY THEY'RE COMING, HOW LONG THEY STAY, WHAT SKILLS WE NEED. I'VE BEEN CONSTANTLY ENGAGING WITH STAKEHOLDERS FOR THE NEARLY FOUR YEARS THAT I'VE BEEN MINISTER, AND I ENCOURAGE THAT DEBATE. WHAT I HAVE LESS TIME FOR IS THAT XENOPHOBIC STREAK THAT UNDERPINS A SMALL COHORT OF NZERS WHO DON'T WANT PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE THEM TO COME IN. IS IT NOT TIME TO CUT OUR IMMIGRATION LEVELS? WELL, THE DATA THAT INFORMS THAT CONVERSATION IS THE MONTHLY STATISTICS NZ RELEASE OF THE PERMANENT AND LONG-TERM MIGRATION STATISTICS. NOW, IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS THAT'S GONE FROM A NET ZERO OR SMALL OUTFLOW TO A QUITE STRONGLY POSITIVE NUMBER ` AROUND 69,000 OR 70,000. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT NUMBER MEANS, AND WE'VE SAID ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS IT'S LARGELY INFLUENCED BY WHAT NZERS ARE CHOOSING TO DO, BY COMING HOME AND STAYING HOME. BUT THOSE WHO ARE COMING IN FROM OVERSEAS ARE OVERWHELMINGLY TEMPORARY. THEY'RE HERE ON WORKING HOLIDAY VISAS, THEY'RE HERE TO STUDY, THEY'RE HERE TO HELP US WITH THINGS LIKE THE CHRISTCHURCH REBUILD, AND THEY WILL GO HOME AGAIN. SO I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE LOOK THROUGH THOSE NUMBERS AND HAVE SOME BALANCE ABOUT WHAT THEY MEAN. OK, LET'S LOOK THROUGH THOSE NUMBERS. LET'S ASSUME, THEN, AS YOU SAY, THERE IS A LARGE CHUNK WHO ARE COMING AND GOING AND MOVING AROUND; THEY'RE TEMPORARY. THERE IS, THOUGH, YOUR 45,000 TARGET OF NEW RESIDENTS EACH YEAR, ISN'T IT, AND YOU'VE BEEN HITTING THAT. ARE YOU LOOKING AT CHANGING THAT PART OF IT? WELL, IT'S NOT A TARGET, IT'S A PLANNING RANGE, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE. WE HAVEN'T BEEN HITTING IT, ACTUALLY, OVER THE LAST EIGHT OR NINE YEARS. WE'VE PRETTY MUCH UNDERSHOT THE 45,000 TO 50,000 ANNUAL PLANNING RANGE THAT WE HAVE. IT PEAKED IN AROUND 2006-2007 AT ABOUT 52,000. IT DROPPED AS LOW AS 43,000 DURING THE RECESSION, AND IT'S CERTAINLY COMING BACK STRONGLY NOW. IT'S SUBJECT TO REVIEW. I DON'T THINK IT WILL CHANGE MATERIALLY, AND THE REASONS FOR THAT ARE TO DO WITH WHO IS COMING AND GAINING RESIDENCE. BUT, YEAH, WE ARE REVIEWING IT RIGHT NOW. SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN WHEN YOU SAY YOU ARE REVIEWING IT? WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? THAT YOU EITHER CHANGE THE TARGET UP OR DOWN? YEAH. THE PLANNING RANGE WILL BE REVIEWED BY CABINET OVER THE NEXT MONTH OR SO. AT THE MOMENT, AS I SAY, IT'S A TWO-YEAR MOVING PLANNING RANGE OF BETWEEN 45,000 AND 50,000. IT HAS THREE MAIN CATEGORIES ` OUR HUMANITARIAN OBLIGATIONS, WHICH ARE OUR COMMITMENT TO SAMOA AND THE PACIFIC; OUR REFUGEE QUOTA; AND THEN THE FAMILY AND PARTNERSHIP VISAS THAT ARE ARRANGED, BECAUSE MANY NZERS WHO ARE COMING HOME ARE BRINGING NON-NZERS WITH THEM AS PARTNERS; AND, OF COURSE, IT'S OUR SKILLS PROGRAMME, AND ABOUT HALF OF THE PEOPLE ARE COMING WITH THE SKILLS THAT WE HAVE IN SHORT SUPPLY RIGHT NOW. I WONDER IF YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM BUILDING, THOUGH, AND THAT IS THOSE TEMPORARY MIGRANTS THAT YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT, A LARGE CHUNK OF THEM BEING STUDENTS. YES. THERE IS A VIEW THAT A LOT OF THOSE STUDENTS HAVE COME HERE TO STUDY BECAUSE THEY SEE IT AS A PATHWAY TO GETTING THAT RESIDENCY, AND THERE ARE SOME WHO SUGGEST YOU'RE GOING TO SEE QUITE A BUBBLE OF PEOPLE PUSHING FOR RESIDENCY OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS. ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT? WELL, I THINK THAT TREND IS CERTAINLY OBSERVABLE NOW, AND THERE ARE SOME EXPECTATIONS FROM STUDENTS THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO STAY AND GAIN RESIDENCE. OVERWHELMINGLY, THOUGH, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THEY WILL NOT GAIN RESIDENCE; THEY WILL GET A REALLY GOOD EDUCATION, AND THEY'LL GO BACK TO THEIR HOME COUNTRIES, WHERE THEY'LL PUT THOSE SKILLS TO GOOD USE. OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS ABOUT 19% OF THE STUDENTS WHO GRADUATE FROM OUR UNIVERSITIES, POLYTECHS AND PTES HAVE GONE ON TO GAIN RESIDENCE, AND THEY'RE PART OF THAT PLANNING RANGE. IF THE PLANNING RANGE DOESN'T GO UP, THEN CLEARLY THE EXPECTATIONS OF ALL OF THOSE STUDENTS ARE NOT GOING TO BE MET. YEAH, BUT THAT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT THIS NEW NZ PEOPLE'S PARTY THAT'S FORMING BASED AROUND ASIAN AND INDIAN MIGRANTS. THEY FEEL THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS EXPLOITING THE STUDENT VISA CATEGORY BECAUSE, I GUESS, PEOPLE ARE SELLING IT TO PEOPLE ON THE BASIS THAT THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO GET RESIDENCY. IS THERE A PROBLEM HERE? WELL, I REJECT THE INFERENCE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS SOMEHOW EXPLOITING THAT, BUT I AM CONCERNED THAT EDUCATION AGENTS, PARTICULARLY IN THE SUBCONTINENT IN INDIA, ARE SELLING STUDENTS A STORY OF A PATHWAY TO RESIDENCE THAT SIMPLY DOESN'T EXIST FOR MANY OF THEM. AND IT'S BEEN A CHALLENGE FOR EDUCATION NZ AND IMMIGRATION NZ TO MAKE SURE THAT THE VISA APPLICANTS FROM INDIA IN PARTICULAR ARE AWARE OF WHAT THEY NEED TO DO TO QUALIFY FOR A STUDENT VISA AND ALSO WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN ON THEIR GRADUATION DAY. SO ARE YOU CLAMPING DOWN ON THAT? ARE YOU SENDING A STRONG MESSAGE TO THESE GUYS THAT YOU CAN'T GO TELLING PEOPLE THAT IT'S GOING TO GUARANTEE THEM RESIDENCY? YES, WE ARE, BUT IT IS DIFFICULT TO GET BEHIND THE AGENCY THAT EXISTS IN INDIA. IT IS A QUITE DIFFICULT MARKET. IT'S ALSO ONE OF OUR STRONGLY GROWING ONES. AND INDIA IS A VERY VERY YOUTHFUL COUNTRY, SO THEY'RE LOOKING TO SEND THEIR YOUNG PEOPLE OUT TO GAIN GOOD EDUCATION RIGHT ACROSS THE WORLD. BUT THIS IS A CHALLENGE THAT NOT ONLY NZ FACES BUT MANY OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ALSO HAVE INTERNATIONAL EDUCATION FROM INDIA. BUT WHY LET THESE STUDENTS COME HERE AND WORK 20 HOURS A WEEK IN LOW-SKILLED WORK THAT ARGUABLY IS SUPPRESSING WAGES IN LOW-SKILLED JOBS? WELL, LOOK, LET'S FIRSTLY AGREE THAT WHEN WE WERE STUDENTS, WE PROBABLY DID THE SAME THING. IT'S NOT UNUSUAL FOR A UNIVERSITY STUDENT TO AUGMENT THEIR INCOME WITH A BIT OF PART-TIME WORK AROUND THEIR STUDIES, AND I THINK IT'S NOT UNREASONABLE FOR INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS TO BE ABLE TO DO THE SAME. AS FAR AS THE SUPPRESSION OF WAGES IS CONCERNED, I'M AWARE THAT THERE IS A RISK THAT THIS COULD OCCUR, BUT I'M LOOKING VERY CLOSELY, AND I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY EVIDENCE THAT THAT IS ACTUALLY OCCURRING. WHAT IS OCCURRING IN SOME PLACES IS THERE ARE FORMS OF EXPLOITATION THAT ARE GOING ON THAT IMMIGRATION NZ AND THE LABOUR INSPECTORATE ARE WORKING VERY HARD TO FLUSH OUT, AND I ENCOURAGE ANYBODY WHO MIGHT BE SUBJECT TO THAT TO SPEAK TO IMMIGRATION NZ, BECAUSE WE WILL TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY. THE FACTS ARE THAT WAGE GROWTH IN NZ IS PRETTY SLUGGISH. WE'VE HAD THE RESERVE BANK QUESTIONING WHETHER IT'S CAUSING SUPPRESSION OF WAGES, THE TREASURY RAISING RISKS THAT IT IS SUPPRESSING WAGES. SURELY FOR THAT NZ STUDENT WHO'S LOOKING FOR THE PART-TIME JOB AS WELL IS NOW COMPETING WITH THE FOREIGN STUDENTS, FOR THE EMPLOYER, WELL, THEY CAN CHARGE WHATEVER THEY WANT NOW, CAN'T THEY? WELL, I'M NOT SURE I'D AGREE THAT WAGE GROWTH HAS BEEN SLUGGISH. CERTAINLY, INFLATION HAS BEEN EXTREMELY BENIGN, SO WHEN YOU COMPARE THE, I THINK, ABOUT THE 25% OR 26% WAGE INCREASES UNDER THIS GOVERNMENT AGAINST THE 11% OR 12% INFLATION, I THINK YOU'D SEE THAT REAL WAGE GROWTH IS OCCURRING. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER IT'S OCCURRING IN THOSE OCCUPATIONS. WELL, YOU COULD ALSO COMPARE IT WITH AUSTRALIA, MINISTER, AND HOW ARE WE LOOKING WHEN WAGES COMPARE WITH AUSTRALIA? WELL, I DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS FOR AUSTRALIA, SO IT'S A LITTLE DIFFICULT FOR ME. WE'RE A LOT WAY BEHIND STILL, AREN'T WE? WELL, WHAT I KNOW IS AUSTRALIA HAS GOT THE YIPS. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE COMING BACK FROM AUSTRALIA TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE STRONG ECONOMIC GROWTH THAT'S OCCURRING HERE IN NZ. SO YOU ARE CONVINCED THAT THERE'S NO EVIDENCE YET TO SUGGEST THAT THAT IMMIGRATION IS PUTTING DOWNWARD PRESSURE ON WAGES? NO, I DON'T THINK THERE'S EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT. IT'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING WE NEED TO BE MINDFUL OF, AND WE'RE KEEPING A VERY CLOSE EYE ON IT. HOW, THEN, CAN WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THERE ARE 15,000 UNEMPLOYED LABOURERS IN NZ, YET 6500 LABOURERS WERE GIVEN WORK VISAS. HOW CAN THAT BE? YEAH, LOOK, VERY GOOD QUESTION, AND I CONSTANTLY CHECK TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR SKILLS SHORTAGE LISTS ARE REGIONALLY TARGETED. LOOK, WE'VE GOT A REBUILD IN CANTERBURY. I DON'T KNOW WHERE EXACTLY THOSE PEOPLE ARE, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT IMMIGRATION NZ AND WORK AND INCOME WORK VERY HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT EMPLOYERS DO TEST THE LOCAL LABOUR MARKET BEFORE THEY GO TO THE INTERNATIONAL MARKET. BUT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LABOURERS, WE'RE TALKING GENERALLY ABOUT CANTERBURY. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RETAIL, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PLACES LIKE QUEENSTOWN, WANAKA AND ROTORUA. OK, SO THERE'S A REGIONAL ELEMENT TO THIS. ABSOLUTELY. YOU'RE PART OF A GOVERNMENT THAT BELIEVES IN MARKET ECONOMICS HERE. WHY CAN'T YOU LET THE MARKET DO ITS JOB? SO IF THERE'S A SHORTAGE IN LABOURERS, A LOW-SKILLED JOB, EMPLOYERS WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE AND NZERS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY WILL MOVE TO WHERE THE WORK IS. ISN'T THAT HOW THE MARKET WORKS? WELL, IT CAN. I THINK WHAT YOU'VE DONE IS PRESUPPOSE THAT MONEY IS THE ONLY BARRIER TO PEOPLE MOVING TO WORK. NOW, WHAT WE KNOW AND WHAT WE'VE SAID AND LISTENED TO EMPLOYERS ABOUT IS THAT THAT IS ONE OF MANY BARRIERS. GEOGRAPHY IS DEFINITELY ONE. SKILLS, ATTITUDE, RECREATIONAL DRUG AND ALCOHOL ALL PREVENTS SOME OF OUR YOUNG NZERS FROM GAINING WORK. NOW, THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND I ARE WORKING REALLY HARD WITH INDUSTRY IN OCCUPATIONS LIKE TRUCK DRIVING, HORTICULTURE, CONSTRUCTION, ALL TO MAKE SURE THAT NZERS ARE AS READY AND ABLE AS THEY CAN BE. SO GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT YOU CAN DO HERE. IS IT A CASE OF 'WORK FOR THE DOLE' TYPE PROGRAMMES OR IS IT MORE INCENTIVES? WHAT ARE SOME NEW THINGS YOU'RE ACTUALLY DOING HERE TO GET NZERS INTO THOSE JOBS? WELL, IT'S CERTAINLY INCENTIVE-BASED, SO WE'VE GOT WORKER-ENGAGEMENT PROGRAMMES IN THE HORTICULTURE INDUSTRY IN THE HAWKE'S BAY, MARLBOROUGH, CENTRAL OTAGO. WE'VE GOT IN THE DAIRY INDUSTRY IN ASHBURTON AND NOW IN INCREASING PLACES AROUND THE COUNTRY IDENTIFICATION OF YOUNG JOBSEEKERS WHO ARE LOOKING FOR WORK AND NEED TO BE MADE READY TO GO, AND I'VE BEEN VERY ENCOURAGED BY THAT. BUT THOSE ARE ALSO AREAS AND INDUSTRIES WHERE THERE IS SIGNIFICANT GROWTH IN DEMAND FOR LABOUR, AND IT'S INEVITABLE THAT AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO GO TO THE INTERNATIONAL LABOUR MARKET WITH THINGS LIKE THE SEASONAL EMPLOYER SCHEME THAT WE HAVE WITH THE PACIFIC AND WITH SOME LABOUR-MARKET-TESTED WORK VISAS. I'VE GOT TO COME BACK. WHY CAN'T YOU TAKE SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE, THE HUNDRED OR SO THOUSAND UNEMPLOYED, WHY CAN'T YOU GET SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE TO MOVE AND WORK? WHY NOT SAY WORK FOR THE DOLE? OH, LOOK, WE'RE CERTAINLY INCENTIVISING IT. I THINK WORK FOR A DOLE IS A BIGGER STEP. IF WE WANT TO HAVE A CONVERSATION AS A COUNTRY, LET'S DO THAT, BUT I'M CONVINCED` HAVE YOU CONSIDERED IT? HAVE YOU LOOKED AT OPTIONS LIKE THAT? WELL, THAT'S A QUESTION BETTER PUT TO MINISTER JOYCE AND MINISTER TOLLEY. WHAT I KNOW IS THAT THEY'RE WORKING EXTREMELY HARD WITH EMPLOYERS TO MAKE SURE THAT YOUNG NZERS ARE AT THE FRONT OF THE QUEUE FOR THOSE JOBS. BUT, LOOK, WE HAVE TO HAVE AN HONEST CONVERSATION. WHEN WE HAVE 5.1% UNEMPLOYMENT, AND IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER THAN THAT, WE ARE REALLY STARTING TO GET TO FULL EMPLOYMENT, AND FOR THOSE WHO ARE READY, WILLING AND ABLE TO FIND A JOB AND IF THEY WANT TO MOVE TO A JOB, THEY CAN DEFINITELY FIND ONE. FULL EMPLOYMENT ` THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK YOU'LL FIND THE TREASURY HAS SAID FULL EMPLOYMENT'S MORE LIKE 4%. WELL, AND WE'RE HEADING IN THAT DIRECTION IN MANY PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, SO LOOK AT` THERE'S STILL A WEE WAY TO GO. WE HAVE A WEE WAY TO GO, AND WE'RE WORKING VERY HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERY NZER WHO WANTS TO WORK, IS ABLE TO WORK, CAN DO SO. BUT AS I SAY, WE ARE A STRONGLY GROWING ECONOMY IN PLACES LIKE MARLBOROUGH WITH THE VINEYARDS, TE PUKE WITH KIWIFRUIT. THE FARMING COMMUNITY, AGED CARE, FISHING ALL HAVE SERIOUS LABOUR SHORTAGES, AND AT THIS TIME, IT'S STILL GOING TO BE NECESSARY TO GO TO THE INTERNATIONAL LABOUR MARKET TO MEET THAT NEED. GIVEN THE PRESSURES THAT IMMIGRATION PUT ON HOUSING, PUT ON INFRASTRUCTURE, PUT ON HOSPITALS, PUT ON SCHOOLS, CAN YOU POINT TO ANY EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS LONG-TERM MIGRATION LIFTS OUR PRODUCTIVITY RATE OR LIFTS THE AMOUNT OF EXPORTS WE EXPORT OR MAKES US RICHER AS A COUNTRY? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, AND THERE WAS A RECENT BERL REPORT THAT CAME OUT LAST MONTH WHICH SHOWED THAT THERE IS A VERY STRONG POSITIVE CONTRIBUTION BEING MADE BY MIGRANTS, BOTH TEMPORARY AND PERMANENT, AND THAT INCLUDES TAKING INTO ACCOUNT PRESSURE ON THINGS LIKE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND OTHER SOCIAL SERVICES. SO IT'S PRETTY UNEQUIVOCAL. IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT WE DO HAVE A 'NZERS FIRST' POLICY, AND WHERE IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE HOUSING SUPPLY, IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE GET THAT RIGHT. BUT THE CONTRIBUTION BY MIGRATION TO OUR ECONOMY IS OVERWHELMINGLY POSITIVE. IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOODHOUSE TALKING TO CORIN DANN THERE. NEXT MONTH A NEW POLITICAL PARTY AIMED AT ASIAN AND INDIAN VOTERS WILL LAUNCH, WITH BIG PLANS FOR NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION. IT'S LEADER, ROSHAN NAUHRIA, SAYS LAW AND ORDER IS A KEY ISSUE FOR ITS SUPPORTERS. HE JOINS ME NOW. Why is a party like this needed? Let me talk about what Michael Woodhouse was talking about with immigration and students. They might not say that they have been exploited by the government, but students in India have been told a different story by agents and when they come here, it is a different thing. This is what is happening. There are dozens of students in Auckland facing deportation. They have been laid up the garden path in India. But the government is aware of what is happening. And all the Mps and the government are aware. Is that not part of the exploitation? What would your party do? All the people coming from India must have a system that tells them exactly what the true story is for them coming over here. When they come for education, they come for level V or level VI business education. You have school shops in Queen Street. If you go to AUT or University of Auckland, nobody really does education if they Do not pass. Michael Woodhouse has said he is going to clamp down on this, though. It has been going on for years. I have been here since 1972 and for roughly 26 of the years it has been the national government. It has taken them this long? We Google to you and a lot of images come up with photos of you with Pansy Wong and John Key. You have their ear. Why have you not raised the flag? I have raised the issue many times. They are not interested, really. What they are interested in is how much money we are going to get from the students. We are talking about the up to 150 students in Auckland who are going to be deported. I think that some consideration should be given for them. A lot of the time the people are vulnerable. First, the agent paid the money and then the money has not been paid to the government. Let us get on to your party. Western Peters has come out swinging about your party. That is his problem. What is going to happen and you look at what the polling Says, Winston Peters could be the kingmaker. If we get 10% of the votes, we are going to be the sensible partners and not have silly policies. Winston Peters has been in politics for 30 odd years. The sceptic would say that a party that is not going to launch for about a year before the election and is going to get 10% is dreaming. People are saying that. How you going to be any different? At present, the population of our people is 13%. We are going to bring some policies which will suit and people will like our policies. I am quite positive we will get 10%. You will need to be aligned with the major party. There was going to be? Anyone. I am not a left or right. I am going to be a minor party, not a major party. We will see what is the best policy to suit our people. We talked about immigration and one of the other issues you have is crime and punishment. I am not saying we are too soft. First of all, we are to make the system so people are deterred from crime. So harsher punishment? I do not think that. First of all you look at who the criminals are. What you are saying appears to be how to deal with criminals afterwards. First, use the money on rehabilitation. If we do not succeed in rehabilitation, then you apply a harsher punishment. The people are deterred. Once they are caught, they are dealt with properly. If you succeed with rehabilitation ` and that is the best way. The people are aware that if they do a crime, they are going to be caught. I am afraid we are going to have to leave it there, Roshan Nauhria. Thank you for coming in. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQANDA, YOU CAN EMAIL US AT Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF ` EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. THE PANEL'S HERE AFTER THE BREAK. WE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT THAT MICHAEL WOODHOUSE INTERVIEW. HAS THE GOVERNMENT GOT IT RIGHT ON IMMIGRATION? NEXT. RIGHT LET'S BRING IN THE PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER; ANJUM RAHMAN FROM THE ISLAMIC WOMEN'S COUNCIL; AND MICHAEL BARNETT, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE AUCKLAND CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. I want to hear from you about the 45,000 immigrants a year. Is that right? I do not think it is a numbers game. I think the focus they have got numbers is absolutely wrong. It is about having the right people. I think we need to start talking about settlement policy and how we're helping people settle here So it is not just about numbers. It is about how we manage that. I feel we are not doing well with the students there are coming here. We're giving them here and taking the money but we are not providing for the well-being as much as we could be or sure they. As the numbers a bit of a red herring? I think the numbers are. I think it is a good idea and a good time to review immigration. The government is aware of the politics of it. They do not want to stir up a cocktail of resentment around housing, education and healthcare and low wages. From their point of view, and yet again with the advent of the Winston Peters party, they are very keen to ensure they undergo a review. This has been Winston Peters calling card since year. Is he going to get traction on this? He is polling at about the level he was at the 2014 election and we have not seen the polls moving and that is not to say that they will not move in the future, but he has seen this as an issue of importance and we know with Winston Peters he wants to balance himself in a position where he can decide whether it is a Labour led government or a National League government after the election and this is one of the most popular features of MMP for people. They do not like to see a small party exercising that balance of power. We will come back to Winston Peters a bit later. Michael, this whole issue is about which ever side of the fence you come down on, xenophobia and racism come into it. How do we get past that? I agree with the Minister that it is time we have a sensible debate, but it needs to be coupled with a couple of other things. Right now, the economy is on fire and I have about 48% of businesses in Auckland saying they cannot get the right people with the right skills. New Zealand is not going to be able to take advantage of the growth that we could have otherwise expected and the rise in living in the things that go with it. So to my mind it is getting people to have a full understanding of taking advantage of the growth that is available to them. The xenophobic thing, I do not hear in business that what we do here is a call for a matching of skills. We see people coming into the country with high skills and working for the minimum wage because the skills are not recognised here. We see students were working through the system and applying for residency and they are bringing up family. It does not match with the country needs right now. It is not about numbers. It is about the right skills and matching. Are we xenophobic or reasonable? I think the discourse around immigration is problematic. When we talk about immigrants, I think it is a code word for people of colour. UK is one of the highest sources of immigrants. We're not talking about those people. We are talking about them as takers rather than givers when the evidence shows that they are givers to the economy and the problem that I have for the kind of rhetoric we have from New Zealand first around us is that they never talk about vulnerabilities of migrants and I can give you many anecdotal stories about migrant workers being mistreated and they are being paid differently and they are very vulnerable. They do not complain because they are worried they will be sent home. Those issues are never part of the discourse all the discussion and that is why it feels very xenophobic because people are using migrant two main ethnic communities. Punjabi community celebrated 125 years in New Zealand. Chinese have been here for over a century. Would you vote for a New Zealand People's Party? I would have to see more. I need to see more about what the policies would be. I do not think I would be able to commit to it, but I am glad there is a party that is standing up and speaking to these issues because I do not think our current Parliament has served us well in having a voice for ethnic communities. Rushan had lots of comments about what the government is doing or not doing about the student visas. What do you make of what he has to say? If people are being deliberately misled, it is uncomfortable and you want to make sure the government is doing something about it. It is quite understandable that people are going to take a punt to come to New Zealand and be one of the 20% that are allowed to remain. I think it is a very delicate issue to deal with. I think we should be clear around what their expectations might be. I think wherever you are selecting from a pool of students, graduates, you are going to have people who are going to be happy with the results and those who are going to be unhappy. I hate to be discouraging. There are two ways to get into Parliament. You can reach the 5% threshold. That has proven to be an extremely difficult thing for small parties to pass. You can be gifted one of the electorates. That is highly unlikely in the current environment. I think the best route for an ethnic minority group is to work with the two parties that are currently there. The Labour party currently has no Asian or Indian Mps. Nor the green party. We just need to get to Winston Peters. The New Zealand first conference is happening right now in Dunedin. OTHERWISE I'M NOT PERSONALLY INTERESTED IN GOING ON AND NOR WOULD MY PARTY BE. OH, IT'S IN THE GOOD BOOK ` ANY MAN WHO SETS HIS HAND TO THE PLOUGH AND THEN LOOKS BACKWARDS IS NOT FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. What?! Fairly biblical. I don't know what to make of it. I can understand at age 72 or whatever if he does not get the opportunity to exercise the kingmaker role, he might want to give it away. He thinks that he can make it. I think he will want to extract as much as he can from whatever party is in government. BEFORE WE GO TO THE BREAK, I WANT TO UPDATE YOU ON A STORY WE'VE BEEN FOLLOWING ON Q+A OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS. THE SUBURB OF MANGERE IN SOUTH AUCKLAND HAS BEEN PROTESTING AGAINST A SEX OFFENDER WHO IS LIVING IN THEIR COMMUNITY UNDER AN EXTENDED SUPERVISION ORDER. LAST WEEK, WE INTERVIEWED PHOEBE BLACKMOORE-MUELLER, WHO IS A MUM, AND WITH HER THREE KIDS THEY LIVE IN A STATE HOUSE RIGHT BEHIND THE OFFENDER. SHE HAD BEEN TOLD SHE COULDN'T MOVE TO ANOTHER STATE HOUSE, BUT TWO DAYS AFTER THE STORY AIRED, SHE WAS OFFERED THE CHOICE OF TWO STATE HOUSES AND WILL MOVE IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS. THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY HOWEVER, HAS VOWED TO KEEP FIGHTING AGAINST THE MAN'S CONTINUED PRESENCE IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD. AFTER THE BREAK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE GLOBAL WATER CRISIS WITH KPMG'S HEAD OF CORPORATE CITIZENSHIP, WHO SAYS NZ SHOULD CLEAN UP ITS ACT AND BECOME A WORLD LEADER IN PROTECTING THIS PRECIOUS RESOURCE. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN UNTHINKABLE A MONTH AGO, BUT NOW NOT ONE BUT TWO TOWNS ARE DEALING WITH CONTAMINATED WATER SUPPLIES. THE TARARUA TOWN OF PAHIATUA HAS FOR THREE DAYS IN A ROW FOUND TRACES OF E-COLI IN ITS WATER, AND THERE IS A 'BOIL WATER' NOTICE IN PLACE. THIS COMES HOT ON THE HEELS OF HAVELOCK NORTH'S CONTAMINATION HEADACHE. THE 'BOIL WATER' NOTICE THERE HAS BEEN LIFTED, SO LOCALS SHOULD NOW BE ABLE TO ENJOY CLEAN WATER AGAIN. NOT SO FOR MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD. IT'S ESTIMATED THAT ONE IN FIVE DEATHS OF CHILDREN IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES IS DUE TO A WATER-RELATED DISEASE. KPMG'S GLOBAL HEAD OF CORPORATE CITIZENSHIP, LORD MICHAEL HASTINGS, HAS BEEN IN NZ THIS WEEK TO TALK ABOUT THE GLOBAL WATER CRISIS. HE'S BEEN SUPPORTING 'CYCLE FOR WATER', A WORLD BIKE RIDE THAT AIMS TO RAISE AWARENESS OF THE NEED FOR SUSTAINABLE WATER. CORIN DANN CAUGHT UP WITH LORD HASTINGS AND BEGAN BY ASKING WHETHER HE WAS SURPRISED TO SEE NZ DEALING WITH A WATER CONTAMINATION PROBLEM. IT CAME AS A SURPRISE BECAUSE I'D ALWAYS MADE THE ASSUMPTION BECAUSE OF NZ'S ENORMOUS RIVER QUALITY AND WATER SUSTAINABILITY AND THE EMPHASIS ON GOOD ENVIRONMENT HERE THAT THOSE ISSUES WOULD NOT ARISE. BUT IT'S NOT THAT WE ASKED FOR THIS TO FIT INTO THE SAME TIME AS WE WERE PROMOTING 'CYCLE FOR WATER', BUT IT DOES HELP TO BRING IT INTO SHARP RELIEF THE ASSUMPTION THAT EVERY COUNTRY HAS GOT SOME KIND OF HARD ISSUE THAT IT NEEDS TO LOOK AT. BUT NZ WAS SORT OF FREE OF THAT. YOU'VE CERTAINLY BLOWN UP BY THE HAWKE'S BAY CRISIS, AND IT DID HELP US DRAW TO ATTENTION OF BOTH THE MEDIA AND THE PUBLIC AND THE BUSINESS LEADERS THAT WE'VE BEEN MEETING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS THAT THE GLOBAL WATER CRISIS IS AN ISSUE THAT MATTERS HERE AS MUCH AS IT MATTERS IN THE HALLS OF THE REST OF THE CAPITALS OF THE WORLD. SO WE'RE NOT GRATEFUL FOR IT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOOD AND PEOPLE'S LIVES HANG ON THE QUALITY OF CLEAN WATER, BUT IT HIGHLIGHTS THE SHARP ISSUES, SO WE'RE GLAD TO FOCUS AROUND IT. SO WHAT ARE THOSE LONG-TERM CHALLENGES FOR A COUNTRY LIKE NZ AND, IN FACT, FOR THE GLOBE? WELL, LET'S JUST PUT IT INTO THE CONTEXT OF, SAY, THE NEXT 15 YEARS, AND HERE'S THE ESTIMATE ` THAT BY ROUGHLY 2030 TO 2050, THE WORLD'S DEMAND FOR WATER, BECAUSE OF THE GROWTH OF OUR POPULATION FROM 7 BILLION NOW TO AROUND 9 BILLION BY THE TURN OF THE NEXT CENTURY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE AN EXCESSIVE OF DEMAND OF ABOUT 40% OVER WATER SUPPLY. THAT MEANS THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE LITERALLY FIGHTING OVER WHERE DOES THE WATER COME FROM. IT'S PARTLY BECAUSE WE USE SO MUCH OF IT IN AGRICULTURE AND, OF COURSE, IN INDUSTRY, AND IN MANY WAYS THAT IS NECESSARY AND RIGHT, BUT THE HUGE EXTREME DEMAND THAT WE HAVE FOR CATTLE-BASED PROTEIN IN THE WORLD REQUIRES AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF WATER TO SUPPORT AND TO FEED THE CATTLE THEMSELVES AS WELL AS INVOLVED IN THE PROCESSING OF THE MEAT QUALITY THAT WE WANT AND ALSO THE INFATUATION THAT WE HAVE IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD WITH WATER-BASED PRODUCTS. SO WE'RE IN A SHORT SUPPLY ISSUE. WE STILL HAVE A REALITY THAT, AND THIS IS A VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FACT, THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF CHILDREN WHO DIE UNDER THE AGE OF 5 IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD DIE FROM DIARRHOEA, AND THAT'S LARGELY BECAUSE OF UNSAFE AND UNCLEAN WATER, AND MORE CHILDREN DIE FROM DIARRHOEA THAN DIE FROM AIDS, MALARIA AND TB COMBINED. A COUNTRY LIKE NZ, WHICH DOES HAVE LARGE QUANTITIES OF FRESH WATER, DO YOU ENVISAGE THAT PERHAPS WE BECOME AN EXPORTER OF THAT WATER IN FUTURE, THAT WE TRY AND MEET THAT DEMAND IN SOME WAY? WATER IS NOT EASILY TRANSPORTABLE AROUND THE WORLD. YOU COULD HAVE WATER TRANSPORTED MULTI-LITRE BOTTLES OF WATERS. YOU CAN HAVE MULTIPLE PACKS OF THIS, WHICH, OF COURSE, ARE USED BY THE AID AGENCIES AND BY GOVERNMENTS TO SUPPORT DISASTERS, EMERGENCIES AND PARTICULARLY REFUGEE MIGRATION CRISIS. BUT YOU CAN'T MOVE THE VOLUMES OF WATER THAT IS NECESSARY FOR THE REST OF THE DEVELOPING WORLD TO RECEIVE JUST BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT IT HERE IN NZ. WHAT NZ CAN DO, AS A COUNTRY THAT IS WELL PROVIDED FOR AND WELL PROTECTED, IS BECOME AN ACTIVE PARTICIPANT IN THE CAMPAIGN FOR AVAILABLE WATER IN THE REST OF THE WORLD. LET'S BE CANDID ABOUT IT. WE WASTE SO MUCH OF WHAT IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE, EVEN IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES LET ALONE IN THE NORTHERN ECONOMIES, SIMPLY BECAUSE WE DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW VITAL IT IS. WE DON'T COST IT PROPERLY. WE DON'T TREAT IT WITH DIGNITY. WE DON'T RECOGNISE WHAT IT MEANS FOR PEOPLE'S HEALTH AND LIVELIHOODS AND SUSTAINABILITY, AND WE DON'T THINK ABOUT IT AS A VITAL PRODUCT OF THE INDUSTRY AND PARTICULARLY OF THE AGRICULTURE THAT WE USE SO FREELY. SO WE DO NEED THIS KIND OF HIGH LEVEL OF PUBLIC AWARENESS. THIS IS LIKE A COSTED MINERAL. THIS IS A GREAT EFFECTOR; THE SAME WAY THAT WE MIGHT WANT TO TREASURE DIAMONDS OR TREASURE GOLD OR TREASURE NATURAL MINERALS. WATER IS A MINERAL THAT MATTERS TO US. SO YOU'RE SAYING NZ COULD BE PERHAPS A LEADER OR WE COULD HAVE SOME SORT OF A RESEARCH HUB HERE AND TRY AND REALLY SET AN EXAMPLE? BUT WE DO HAVE ISSUES, OBVIOUSLY, WITH AGRICULTURE. OUR PRIMARY EXPORT IS DAIRY HUGE USER OF WATER. THERE ARE TENSIONS BETWEEN ENVIRONMENTALISTS ON THE ONE HAND AND FARMERS ON THE OTHER HAND OVER THAT WATER USE, OVER COWS IN STREAMS, OVER THE RUN-OFF OF NITROGEN. HOW DOES A COUNTRY LIKE NZ MEET THE BALANCE THERE? BECAUSE WE ARE OBVIOUSLY AN IMPORTANT EXPORTER OF DAIRY AND PROTEIN TO THE WORLD. AND YOU SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE SO, AND YOU SHOULD WANT TO STRENGTHEN THAT SECTOR. ONE OF THE THINGS, IN FACT, WE WERE DISCUSSING AT A MEETING THIS MORNING IS ABOUT HOW TO ENCOURAGE A YOUNGER GENERATION INTO TAKING AGRICULTURE AND FARMING EVER MORE SERIOUSLY. SO WE WANT TO SEE THE GROWTH OF THE NZ AGRICULTURAL SECTOR, BUT WHAT THAT ALSO MEANS IS YOU'VE GOT A DUTY AND OBLIGATION TO BE A QUALITY OF WATER PROVIDER AND A MODEL TO THE REST OF THE WORLD. NZ IS A RICH COUNTRY. IT IS PERFECTLY POSSIBLE TO PROVIDE THE NECESSARY SAFEGUARDS AND THE PROTECTIONS WHICH WOULD'VE STOPPED SOMETHING OF THE CRISIS THAT HAWKE'S BAY HAS BEEN. WE COULD PUT THE INVESTMENT INTO FIELD PROTECTION, INTO WATER PURIFICATION, CLEANSING, INTO CAPTURING OF RAINWATER AND HARVESTING. ALL OF THOSE THINGS, YES, OF COURSE, THEY INVOLVE A COST` UPFRONT INVESTMENT, BUT FRANKLY, NZ'S IN A GOOD PLACE TO SUPPORT THAT. AND IT SHOULD BE A PRIMARY MODEL EXAMPLE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD OF WHAT IS NOT NECESSARILY GIFTING ITS WATER AWAY, ALTHOUGH SOME OF IT COULD BE ` SMALL MEASURE IN PARTICULARLY IN RESPONSE TO DISASTERS, EMERGENCIES ` BUT MORE SO SETTING THE TEMPLATE OF GOOD PRACTICE. BUT HOW DOES THAT MARRY WITH A DESIRE TO SEE INCREASED FARMING, INTENSIFICATION OF FARMING THAT IS ONLY GOING TO PUT PRESSURE ON THOSE WATER SUPPLIES? WELL, THE PRESSURE ON FARMING IS BECAUSE OF THE DEMAND THAT IS REQUIRED BOTH HERE IN NZ AND ALSO FOR EXPORT. THAT IS A GOOD INDUSTRY. IT NEEDS TO BE SUPPORTED. WE NEED TO SEE INCREASED AGRICULTURE AROUND THE WORLD. THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT WHATSOEVER. THERE ARE MANY MORE MOUTHS TO FEED THAN GOOD SUPPLY IS ABLE TO PROVIDE AT THE MOMENT. BUT THAT DOESN'T REMOVE THE OBLIGATION ON NZ'S GOVERNING AUTHORITIES, ON ITS FARMING INSTITUTIONS, ON ITS LOBBYING GROUPS AND ON THE INDIVIDUAL FARMERS THEMSELVES AND ON LANDHOLDERS TO MAKE SURE THEY PROTECT THE WATER THAT IS RUNNING OFF FROM THEIR FARMS AND THEY ALSO ENSURE THAT THE RIVERS AROUND THEM ARE SAFE FOR PUBLIC DRINKING. SO IS PERHAPS OUR FOCUS WRONG HERE? YES, YOUR FOCUS SHOULD BE ON CLEANING UP WHAT IS A DISASTER, MAKING SURE THAT NZ RETURNS TO BEING THE MODEL, THE EXEMPLARY MODEL THAT IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND IT SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE. BUT YOU'VE GOT A FORMER NZ PRIME MINISTER IN HELEN CLARK WHO'S HEADING UP THE UNITED NATIONS DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME. THAT DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME IS FOCUSED ON PROVIDING FOR THE MOST VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING THE MOST VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES IN OUR CITIES. THE RIGHT APPROACH FOR NZ, IN MY OPINION, IS TO MODEL WHAT QUALITY WATER SUPPLY AND PROVISION SHOULD BE. AND THAT'S WHY WE BROUGHT A CYCLIST FROM PARIS HERE. IT'S TAKEN HIM 13 MONTHS TO GET HERE. WE'RE FLAGGING THE ISSUES BECAUSE THE ISSUES MATTER TO ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY. WE DON'T WANT TO SEE WORLD WARS FOUGHT OVER WATER. THAT WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE AND UNFAIR. BUT WE'RE ALSO SEEING ALREADY THE TENSIONS BETWEEN NATIONS OVER WATER SUPPLY. AND WE'VE STILL GOT TO BELIEVE THAT WHEREAS WE SIT IN OUR PRIVILEGE HERE, THERE ARE STILL CHILDREN AND YOUNG ADULTS DESPERATE FOR THAT SINGLE GLASS OF CLEAN WATER FOR THE ERADICATION OF SIMPLE DISEASE WHICH WE CAN DEAL WITH AND THE FAIR DISTRIBUTION OF WATER IN OUR WORLD. IT IS POSSIBLE, BUT IT'S GOING TO REQUIRE NZ TO LEAD. YOU'VE CLEARLY BEEN LOOKING AT THIS ISSUE IN A LOT OF DEPTH. DO YOU WORRY THAT THERE WILL BE WARS IN THE FUTURE OVER WATER? WELL, LET'S BE CANDID ABOUT IT. WATER IS GOING TO BE, OR ALREADY IS IN MANY WAYS, IN SHORT SUPPLY. NATIONS WHO HAVE IT WILL WANT TO PROTECT IT. OTHER NATIONS WHO NEED TO GET IT MAY WELL END UP TAPPING OFF RIVER RESOURCES. THAT IS A REALITY. WE ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AROUND THE WORLD TO SEE WHERE THOSE TENSIONS MIGHT EMERGE. IT'S NOT FOR ME TO PREDICT WHETHER WARS WILL OR WILL NOT HAPPEN, BUT IT IS TO SAY THAT IN THE SAME WAY THAT COUNTRIES HAVE TRADITIONALLY FOUGHT OVER LAND AND HAVE FOUGHT OVER MINERALS, THEY MAY WELL COME TO FIGHT OVER WATER, BECAUSE WATER IS THE MOST BASIC BUT THE MOST NECESSARY COMMODITY EVERY ONE OF US NEEDS. WE CAN'T GO A DAY WITHOUT IT. WE CAN BARELY GO A COUPLE OF HOURS WITHOUT IT. IS THERE ONE THING THAT STANDS OUT TO YOU THAT WE COULD DO RELATIVELY QUICKLY TO TRY AND DEMONSTRATE THAT LEADERSHIP ON WATER, IN YOUR VIEW? PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR HABITS. SO WHAT COULD NZERS DO? LET'S THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT WHETHER BOTTLED WATER IS A NECESSITY FOR US ON A DAY-BY-DAY BASIS. LET'S THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT HOW LONG WE LEAVE THE TAP ON WHEN WE'RE CLEANING OUR TEETH OR WE'RE RUNNING FOR A SHOWER. LET'S THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT HOW MANY TIMES WE NEED TO USE EXCESSIVE BATHS. LET'S THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WATER THAT IS JUST LIBERALLY NOT CAPTURED THAT COULD BE USED FOR OTHER SOURCES. AND LET'S THINK ABOUT HOW NZ CONTRIBUTES TO THE GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT NEEDS OF THE DEVELOPING WORLD, IN PARTICULAR WITH WATER SUPPLY. SO YOU THINK NO... CUT BACK ON BOTTLE WATER? I DIDN'T SAY THAT. WHAT I DID SAY IS THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT IT. IT'S UP TO CONSUMERS TO HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICES. I THINK HERE IN NZ LET'S RAISE THE ISSUE OF WATER, BECAUSE AT LONG LAST, TRAGICALLY AND SADLY, THERE ARE EXAMPLES OF WHERE WATER HAS BEEN CONTAMINATED. IT'S NOT BY ANYBODY'S DEEP DESIRE TO DO SO. IT HAS HAPPENED AS A CONSEQUENCE OF FORMS OF NEGLECT, NOT NECESSARILY PREPARING WHAT RUN-OFFS FROM FIELDS WOULD DO. WATER HAS BECOME A VIVID NEWS ISSUE, THEREFORE LET THE CUSTOMER, THE CONSUMER SAY, 'I TOO MUST TAKE ACCOUNT OF WHAT I USE OF WATER.' THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO GIVE NZ'S GREAT WATER TO OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. LET'S SEEK TO CONTRIBUTE THAT IF WE CAN. DOES THAT INCLUDE SOME SORT OF A PRICE SIGNAL? SO YOU'RE SAYING PUT SOME SORT OF A LEVY ON BOTTLED WATER SO THAT IT MIGHT DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM CHOOSING THAT OPTION? YES, SOME WOULD SUGGEST. AND THESE FIGURES VARY, BUT I'LL JUST GIVE YOU ONE THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME. FOR A SINGLE STANDARD CUP OF COFFEE OR PUT IT IN A MUG FROM A COFFEE PROVIDER, FOR A SINGLE CUP OF COFFEE LIKE THIS, IT REQUIRES SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 6 LITRES AND 20 LITRES OF WATER TO GET TO THAT CUP OF COFFEE. IF YOU'RE JUST PAYING FOR THAT BIT OF WATER, THAT'S ONE THING. WHEN YOU'RE REALISING YOU NEED TO PAY FOR THE 6 LITRES TO 20 LITRES OF WATER THAT'S GONE IN TO GIVE YOU A QUARTER LITRE OF COFFEE, THAT CHANGES THE EQUATION. PRICING SIGNAL IS A VERY IMPORTANT WAY OF BRINGING THE PUBLIC'S ATTENTION TO HOW VALUABLE THIS COMMODITY IS. WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT LORD HASTINGS HAD TO SAY WITH THE PANEL AFTER THE BREAK, AS WELL AS THE FALLOUT FROM THE WATER CONTAMINATION SCANDAL IN HAVELOCK NORTH. THAT'S NEXT. HOW IS THIS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN WHEN WE ARE NOT A THIRD-WORLD COUNTRY? THESE IDIOTS NEED TO STOP STUFFING IT UP. LOTS OF QUESTIONS, NOT MANY ANSWERS. WE APOLOGISE FOR THIS AND DEEPLY REGRET THE INCONVENIENCE, THE MISERY AND FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS OF THIS CONTAMINATION. HASTINGS DISTRICT COUNCIL MAYOR LAWRENCE YULE THERE. LET'S HEAR FROM OUR PANEL AGAIN. You are pretty raised up about this. What should happen about this? We need to go back to the fact that water is a human right. All policies should stem from that value. It should fit in the hands of central government rather than local government. The is not the population base in rural communities to invest in it. The should be central government investment to ensure people have access to clean water. The council was able to make a decision to remove chlorine from the water. That is wrong. It should not have happened do you do disagree? All my life I have been able to turn on a tap in drink water in this country. It is a privilege. The local government has not preserve that as they should have. It is going to take conversation. The Arctic areas in this country that are doing something about the streams and waterways and nitrate leaching. The is not enough. The needs to be a bigger story told. We need to value the commodity we have in water. This issue has blindsided people. It is not what we expected. It might just be bad luck. Or it might be telling us something important. The level of care we have over the water supply. The is a role for central government in trying to work through this problem to ensure it is not repeated. However they handled it so far? They have been slow to handle it. They have not been on to it right from the very start. We ask a lot of government. But when the is an emergency of that sort been one would expect the government would deal with it immediately. The was a lag effect of local government were made to carry the can for several days before the government got on to it. This is a consequence of years of mismanagement. We need to deal with it, but the conversation should be what are we going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again? It is happening in the Waikato.It is just the beginning. It goes back to really good Maori values of being the guardian of the water. We need stakeholders to talk about guardianship of the water and how to manage the resource. It is still at the discussion stage. We need to look at these partnerships to manage a water resource. Be will be a enquiry. We do not have a definite answer. I am not optimistic. We know what some of the problems are. We know the problems we have about intensification of dairy in NZ. We know about run off from from farms. It strikes me as strange we have not done more about these issues in this country. We are too tied up in the economics. The is a need to ensure that above all else we keep our population safe. The is negative branding that this has done to NZ. The consequences in these communities. In the confidence in the water supply. The impact on business. We are dealing with all of that. This is in your backyard. The export industry. How do you balance that? You don't want people getting sick but you want to keep the industry going. I have to go back and say to me it is about the branding. It is about the storytelling that goes. People will look at product and whether it is wine, people will look at it. It is at issue of confidence in the pure NZ brand. Lord Hamilton said that we could become a leader in this. We have not talked about the export of water. Our local councils are not allowed to put any charge on people exported water. Imagine if we could put five cents a litre on water that is been exported. In we could put that money into water quality. Should we be exporting this? Their discussion has to happen. We know that billions of litres are being exported with no benefit to us as a nation as a whole. It is not something that many parties have gone into. Other then the Greens. It calls for cross-party support. There is a need for a national, station that should involve all political parties. I do not like is the particular political parties in the two few occasions International will not be in power for ever and Labour will take over at some stage. All of these parties need to talk about what they will do. It is about community. A local resource. When we talk about rights, the rights of the individual versus the local community and versus the national community, we could have a conversation about that. We all foot the bill for Havelock North. The chlorine decision was not the right one. We were only worried about swimable water before Havelock North. We need to drink the stuff. It will be about the storytelling. The interview earlier on raised points about the conversation we should be having. The storytelling we should be doing. The consequences of intensification of farming, we all need to understand that. The is no definite cause for Havelock North or in Pahiatua but it is unlikely that farming is completely unrelated. Do we need to change our approach to runoff and nitrate? The are conversations happening in behaviour changes. The conversations have started. Waikato have done significant work in increasing the quality of water. It is a good model. Central government put money into that. Maurice Williamson has been given a job in LA. Is this jobs for the boys? Maurice Williamson and diplomat do not sit easily together. He has been thrown out of his own party caucus. He had to resign as a minister. I think he is an unlikely person for a job like that. I think it is jobs for the boys. I think they are putting them away. It is an important job. Why are they putting in the and is the best reason for the job? If they had come out we would have looked about it and not talked about jobs for the boys. This is a train we need to look at. We train professional diplomats into have ex-politicians get around the world, we need to look at it. OUR POLITICAL HISTORY AFTER THE BREAK, AND IMMIGRATION WAS ALSO DOMINATING HEADLINES, BUT FOR QUITE DIFFERENT REASONS. HERE IS OUR BEST AND BRIGHTEST LOOKING AT THIS GOVERNMENT, LOOKING AT THE DIRECTION THAT THE COALITION'S TAKING US AND SAYING THAT THERE'S NOTHING IN IT FOR THEM AND THEY'RE LEAVING. You have plenty to say on immigration. WITH NET IMMIGRATION AT RECORD HIGHS, IT'S INTERESTING TO LOOK BACK TO WHEN WE FRETTED ABOUT QUITE A DIFFERENT PROBLEM ` THE BRAIN DRAIN. HERE'S A REPORT BY GARTH BRAY FROM SEPTEMBER 2000. KIRSTY MCNAY RECRUITS LEGAL TALENT FOR THE COUNTRY'S TOP LAW FIRMS, BUT COME DECEMBER, SHE'S PACKING HER BAGS FOR SYDNEY. PUTTING UP THE TOP TAX RATE IS NOT AN INCENTIVE TO RELATIVELY HIGH INCOME EARNERS IN NZ TO STAY. IN TERMS OF BRINGING US BACK LONG TERM, I'M NOT SURE. KIRSTY'S FAR FROM ALONE. COME HOME AND HELP US... SINCE ELECTION NIGHT IN NOVEMBER WHEN JIM ANDERTON MADE THAT CALL, MORE THAN 10,000 PROFESSIONALS HAVE LEFT. HERE IS OUR BEST AND BRIGHTEST LOOKING AT THIS GOVERNMENT, LOOKING AT THE DIRECTION THAT THE COALITION'S TAKING US AND SAYING THAT THERE'S NOTHING IN IT FOR THEM AND THAT THEY'RE LEAVING. ACT HAS RELEASED THE FIGURES GATHERED BY STATISTICS NZ. TAKING INTO ACCOUNT NEW ARRIVALS, THE COUNTRY'S SUFFERED A NET LOSS OF MORE THAN 3000 WHITE-COLLAR WORKERS. MANY COME FROM MANAGEMENT POSITIONS OR ARE COMPUTER PROFESSIONALS, ARCHITECTS OR TEACHERS. THE GOVERNMENT SAYS OTHER COUNTRIES SIMPLY LOOK MORE ATTRACTIVE. NO ONE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO STOP A PROCESS THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME TIME. IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE FIGURES, THOSE FIGURES HAVE BEEN WORSENING FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS NOW. YET STATISTICS NZ FIGURES SHOW THAT'S NOT RIGHT. SIX OUT OF THE LAST SEVEN YEARS, NZ HAS GAINED PROFESSIONAL TALENT NOT LOST IT. WAKA HUIA IS NEXT. REMEMBER Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY VIRGINIA PHILP AND INGRID LAUDER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016