GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M PATRICK GOWER. TODAY ` FOREIGN EDUCATION IS A BIG EARNER FOR NZ, BUT IS IT TAINTED BY CORRUPTION? AND IS THE GOVERNMENT TURNING A BLIND EYE? THERE'S NO QUESTION ` THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS THIS. THEY KNOW THAT THERE ARE STUDENTS WHO ARE COMING HERE WHO ARE BEING EXPLOITED AND THEY'VE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THAT SITUATION. WE ASK THE TERTIARY EDUCATION MINISTER STEVEN JOYCE IF STUDENT VISA FRAUD IS HURTING THIS COUNTRY'S REPUTATION. AND WINSTON PETERS ` HE COULD BE THE KING-MAKER AFTER NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION. SO WHAT HE DEMAND WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION IN RETURN FOR FORMING A GOVERNMENT? WE TALK TO THE NZ FIRST LEADER AT HIS ANNUAL CONFERENCE. THEN ` IT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST FOOD COMPANIES IN THE COUNTRY AND IT PROVIDES HUNDREDS OF JOBS, BUT IS AFFCO TALLEYS DOING RIGHT BY ITS WORKERS AND BY THE TOWNS THAT IT OPERATES IN? THE MORE AFFCO BECOMES A GOOD CORPORATE CITIZEN, THE BETTER. THEY'RE HOLDING THE COMMUNITY TO RANSOM. AND LATER OUR PANEL ` BERNARD HICKEY, JANE YOUNG AND TIM MURPHY ` WRAP UP THE WEEK AND JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO GIVE US POLITICS IN 60 SECONDS. WELL, GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US AND AS ALWAYS WE WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK, SO GET IN TOUCH ON SOCIAL MEDIA. THE DETAILS ARE ON SCREEN NOW, AND IF YOU TWEET, FOLLOW ALONG WITH OUR TWITTER PANEL ON #NATIONTV3. NZ INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS FORUM DIRECTOR STEPHEN JACOBI IS ON THERE AND SO IS WAITEMATA LOCAL BOARD MEMBER VERNON 'VERNIE' TAVA. NOW, INTERNATIONAL EDUCATION ` THAT'S FOREIGN STUDENTS COMING HERE TO STUDY. IT IS ONE OF OUR BIGGEST EXPORT EARNERS. A $3 BILLION ` YES, A $3 BILLION ` INDUSTRY. OUR FIFTH BIGGEST, JUST BEHIND WOOD. IT BRINGS IN MORE MONEY THAN WINE OR SEAFOOD. MORE MONEY THAN THEM PUT TOGETHER, ACTUALLY. AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS SAID IT WANTS IT TO GET EVEN BIGGER UNTIL IT BRINGS IN $5 BILLION EVERY YEAR. BUT THERE IS AN UGLY SIDE AS WELL. CORRUPTION AND EXPLOITATION. STEVEN JOYCE IS THE TERTIARY EDUCATION MINISTER AND ALSO THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. HE JOINS ME NOW IN THE STUDIO. NOW, MINISTER, I WANT TO START WITH A CASE STUDY ` A GUY THAT I'VE BEEN TALKING TO. PAYS A MILLION RUPEES, ABOUT $23,000, $17000 IN FEES. COMES OUT TO NZ, ARRIVES HERE, DOES HIS COURSE, GETS HIS JOB AT DOMINOS, WORKING THERE, AND THEN ONE DAY IMMIGRATION NZ COMES TO HIM AND SAYS, 'HEY, YOU CAME THROUGH A CORRUPT AGENT. 'WE'RE DEPORTING YOU.' NOW, WHOSE FAULT IS IT? IS IT THE STUDENTS' OR IS IT OUR SYSTEM THAT LET HIM GET ALL THE WAY OUT HERE? WELL, NO, ULTIMATELY, THE RESPONSIBILITY IS WITH THE STUDENT. THEY HAVE TO MAKE A DECLARATION THAT ALL THE INFORMATION THAT THEY SUPPLIED TO NZ IS CORRECT. THEY MAKE THAT DECLARATION WHEN THEY SUBMIT THEIR VISA APPLICATIONS, AND, YES, THEY GET AGENTS TO ADVISE THEM, BUT IT IS SQUARELY AND CLEARLY THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STUDENT. NOW, WE OBVIOUSLY WANT THE AGENTS TO BEHAVE THEMSELVES WELL, AND WE KNOW THAT SOME AGENTS HAVEN'T BEEN BEHAVING THEMSELVES. SO WE'VE TIGHTENED UP THE RULES RECENTLY. WE PUT IN NEW REQUIREMENTS IN THE CODE OF PRACTICE THAT PROVIDERS MUST BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR AGENT'S BEHAVIOUR. BUT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT, IT'S THE STUDENT'S DECLARATION THAT THEY'VE SUPPLIED INFORMATION THAT'S CORRECT, WHICH IS WHAT IMMIGRATION GOES ON. BUT WHAT HAPPENS IF THESE STUDENTS, LIKE ALL OF THEM TELL US, ALL OF THEM SAY IT WAS THE AGENT, 'THE AGENT TRICKED ME'? WELL, OF COURSE, WITH THE GREATEST RESPECT, YOU WOULD SAY THAT. THERE'S 125,000 STUDENTS COME TO NZ EVERY YEAR. MOST OF THEM COME IN THE RIGHT WAY, DO IT THE RIGHT WAY AND STAY AND HAVE A SUCCESSFUL TIME. UNFORTUNATELY THERE'S ALWAYS SOME, AND THE INDIAN MARKET IN PARTICULAR` YOU KNOW A LOT ABOUT IT, BUT FOR THE PEOPLE WATCHING OUT THERE, THE AMOUNT OF WORK THAT IT DOES ` 34,000 STUDENT VISAS PROCESSED THERE IN THE LAST 18 MONTHS; 17,000 GRANTED. IT'S HUGE. IT IS VERY SIGNIFICANT. AND THERE ARE HUGE NUMBERS OF CORRUPT AGENTS PUSHING HUGE NUMBERS OF FALSE STUDENTS INTO THIS COUNTRY. HOW MANY DO YOU THINK HAVE GOT IN? WELL, ACTUALLY, IT'S A PROBLEM EVERYWHERE IN THE WESTERN WORLD. SO LET'S START AT THE BEGINNING. GIVE ME A MINUTE, BECAUSE I'LL JUST GIVE THE BACKGROUND TO IT. INDIA IS NOW THE BIGGEST MARKET IN THE WORLD FOR YOUNG PEOPLE WANTING TO STUDY OFF SHORE. THE AUSTRALIANS, THE UK, THE CANADIANS, THE US, OURSELVES ALL HAVE CHALLENGES BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE CORRUPTION THAT OCCURS IN INDIA. SO THE NUMBERS YOU GAVE, I THINK, ARE QUITE INSTRUCTIVE, BECAUSE WHAT IT SAYS IS ABOUT 40-ODD% OF ALL VISA APPLICATIONS ARE TURNED DOWN BECAUSE OF THE RISKS THAT COME WITH IT. SO ARE SOME OF THE OTHER OFFICES AROUND THE WORLD THAT WE WORK. THE CHINESE MARKET IS THE BIGGEST MARKET, BUT THERE IS SOME UNIQUE CHALLENGES TO INDIA, AND EVERY COUNTRY EXPERIENCES THOSE CHALLENGES. AND SO I LOOK ALONG AND SAY, 'ARE THE NZ AGENCIES DOING AS WELL OR BETTER THAN THEIR INTERNATIONAL COMPARATIVES?' AND THE ANSWER IS THEY'RE HAVING SIMILAR CHALLENGES WHICH THEY'RE DEALING WITH IN SIMILAR WAYS. OK, SO NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT WE ORIGINALLY STARTED WITH. HOW MANY STUDENTS WITH FALSE VISAS DO YOU THINK HAVE COME INTO NZ IN RECENT YEARS? WE DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW` YOU SHOULD KNOW. YOU SHOULD KNOW, SHOULDN'T YOU? NO, WE DON'T, BECAUSE THAT'S A BIT LIKE SAYING HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE COMMITTED CRIME THAT YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT? NO, IT'S NOT. IT'S ABOUT SAYING` PEOPLE ARE BEING FRAUDULENT, BY DEFINITION` COULD IT BE HUNDREDS? COULD IT BE HUNDREDS? IT COULD BE A FEW HUNDRED, ABSOLUTELY. COULD IT BE OVER A THOUSAND? I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW, PADDY, BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS RIGHT NOW THERE'S ABOUT 41 UP FOR HEADING HOME AT THE MOMENT. SO WE COULD HAVE OVER A THOUSAND, MAYBE MORE? WELL, NO, YOU WERE LOOKING FOR A HEADLINE. I'M NOT JUST GOING TO GESTICULATE IT ON A HEADLINE. I'M LOOKING TO ASSESS WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE INTEGRITY OF OUR BORDER THROUGH STUDENT VISAS. IT'S NOT A HEADLINE. NO, YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A HEADLINE, AND I CAN'T TELL YOU AN EXACT NUMBER, BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU AT THE MOMENT IS THERE'S 41 STUDENTS UP FOR DEPORTATION. BUT YOU'VE SAID THERE COULD BE HUNDREDS THAT ARE HERE. NO, YOU SAID THAT. WHAT I SAID TO YOU` NO, YOU SAID THERE COULD BE A FEW HUNDRED. WHAT I SAID TO YOU IS THAT, UM... THE DIFFICULTY WITH FRAUD, OF COURSE, IS SOMEBODY IS COMMITTING FRAUD SO AS NOT TO BE DETECTED. SO YOU CAN'T JUST TURN AROUND AND SAY, 'OK, WELL, I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE NUMBER IS.' IT'S A BIT LIKE SAYING, 'HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE COMMITTING FRAUD IN NZ SOCIETY?' WE DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER. BECAUSE WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE MUMBAI AREA OFFICE FROM OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS, ORGANISED CRIME, ORGANISED CORRUPTION COMING THROUGH THERE. THAT'S FROM DOCUMENTS. AND WE DO GET THAT PERIODICALLY IN DIFFERENT MARKETS. 2012, WE HAD THE SAME ISSUE IN CHINA. WE HAD TO SEND 200-AND-SOMETHING STUDENTS HOME BECAUSE THEIR DOCUMENTS WERE FRAUDULENT, AND WE DO HAVE THAT FROM TIME TO TIME. THE VAST BULK OF THE STUDENTS COMING TO NZ DO IT THE RIGHT WAY, BUT WE HAVE TO BASICALLY INVESTIGATE THOSE THAT DON'T DO IT THE RIGHT WAY AND HAVE TO SEND SOME HOME. LET'S LOOK AT WHAT THESE STUDENTS ARE COMING IN FOR. EDUCATION, OBVIOUSLY. THEY PAY FOR THAT. BUT WHAT WE'RE ALSO GIVING THEM, AREN'T WE, IS THE CHANCE TO WORK FOR 20 HOURS A WEEK AND FULL TIME IN THE HOLIDAYS. ONLY IF THEY'RE AT A CERTAIN LEVEL OF EDUCATION, YEAH. AND A PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP ` A CHANCE TO STAY HERE AFTER THEIR YEAR IS UP. SO WHAT IS`? NO, THAT'S NOT QUITE RIGHT, PADDY. IF YOU STUDY HERE FOR TWO YEARS AT LEVELS FIVE OR SIX OR ONE YEAR IF YOU'RE AT LEVEL SEVEN OR ABOVE, THEN YOU DO GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO STAY FOR A GRADUATE WORK VISA. JUST SO YOU KNOW. 80% GO HOME. SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S ANOTHER 20% THAT GET TO STAY. THAT'S RIGHT. AND THAT'S THE WAY IT'S MARKETED IN INDIA. NO, ACROSS THE WORLD, IT'S MARKETED AS QUALITY EDUCATION, ENGLISH LANGUAGE, GREAT EXPERIENCE, AND, YES, FOR THOSE THAT ARE INTERESTED IN WORKING IN NZ AFTERWARDS, THERE IS THAT OPTION IF YOU WORK. WORK AND POTENTIALLY RESIDENCE. POTENTIALLY, AND SOME DO, AND THEY'RE GREAT, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE THEY'RE INTELLIGENT YOUNG PEOPLE. WHAT ARE WE SELLING, OR WHAT ARE THEY BUYING? ARE WE SELLING THEM AN EDUCATION, OR ARE WE SELLING THEM A CHANCE TO COME HERE AND WORK AND A CHANCE TO LIVE HERE? WE'RE SELLING THEM AN EDUCATION. WE'RE SELLING THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO COME AND BE EDUCATED IN NZ, AND FOR NEARLY ALL OF THEM, THAT'S WHAT THEIR` WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY TELL US. WHEN WE TALK TO THEM, THEY SAY THE MAIN THINGS HERE ARE THE CHANCE TO WORK AND LIVE. THAT'S WHY IMMIGRATION TAKES A ROBUST APPROACH WITH THOSE THAT APPLY, AND NEARLY 40% OF THEM DON'T GET TO COME. AND ON THAT, YOU KNOW, IF WE LOOK BACK AT WHAT THE BIG PICTURE HERE ` NZ'S REPUTATION IN THIS INDUSTRY THAT IS SO IMPORTANT TO US AS WELL. WHEN WE LOOK AT ORGANISED CORRUPTION, FRAUD, SYSTEMATIC FRAUD ALL COMING THROUGH, YOU CAN'T EVEN SAY HOW MANY STUDENTS HAVE GOT HERE FRAUDULENTLY. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW. WHAT'S IT DOING FOR OUR REPUTATION? WELL, ACTUALLY, AS I SAID TO YOU BEFORE, EVERY ENGLISH LANGUAGE COUNTRY WHICH OPERATES IN INDIA HAS THESE CHALLENGES. THEY CAN'T AFFORD NOT TO OPERATE THERE, BECAUSE IT IS THE BIGGEST MARKET OF EDUCATION IN THE WORLD, AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT, AND THERE'S SOME VERY GOOD STUDENTS THERE. BUT IF YOU TALK TO THE CANADIANS, YOU TALK TO THE UK, YOU TALK TO THE US, YOU TALK TO AUSTRALIA, THEY'VE ALL GOT THE SAME CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE, AND NZ IS NO MORE TARRED BY THIS THAN ANYBODY ELSE. EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THE CHALLENGE OF THIS MARKET. JUST GO BACK TO MY POINT. THE STUDENTS HAVE TO MAKE A DECLARATION THAT THE INFORMATION THEY'RE SUPPLYING IS CORRECT. IF THEY DON'T AND IT'S FOUND OUT SUBSEQUENTLY TO BE NOT THE CASE, OUR RESPONSE IS PRETTY ROBUST AND WE SEND THEM HOME. ON THOSE STUDENTS WHO SIGN THAT DECLARATION AND ARE NOW BEING DEPORTED OR UNDER THREAT OF BEING DEPORTED, IF THEY COME BACK AND SAY, 'OK, I DID SIGN IT. IT WAS THE AGENT THAT DID IT,' IF THEY'RE ABLE TO PROVE TO YOU THAT THAT'S THE CASE, WILL YOU GIVE THEM AN AMNESTY? WILL YOU GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO STAY? NO. NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'LL DO, AND WE HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT AND FAIR TO EVERYBODY. I'VE BEEN ASKED ABOUT THIS. THERE'S 40-ODD STUDENTS AT THE MOMENT WHO ARE SAYING` YEAH, THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT MORE, BY THE SOUNDS OF THINGS. NO, THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, BUT ACTUALLY IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE FOLLOW THE RULES. NOW, WE, IN 2012, WE HAD, AS I SAID, ABOUT 200-AND-SOMETHING CHINESE STUDENTS. THEY ALSO WOULD'VE SAID THE SAME THING. BUT IF THEY PROVE TO YOU IT WAS THE AGENT`? BUT IT'S NOT THE AGENT. IF THEY SAY, 'I WAS LET DOWN BY THE AGENT. MUMBAI AREA OFFICE TICKED THE BOX. I GOT HERE. I PAID MY MONEY. I'VE COME HERE. I'VE DONE MY COURSE. I'VE WORKED IN MY JOB'? THAT'S WHERE YOU AND THEY ARE WRONG, IN THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INFORMATION THAT'S SUBMITTED, AND IF THE INFORMATION IS SUBMITTED FRAUDULENTLY, THEN, ACTUALLY, WHEN THEY GET CAUGHT UP WITH, THEY WILL HAVE TO GO HOME. SO, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE SAYING WE'RE WRONG AND WE NEED TO BE CONSISTENT. THAT'S THE POINT HERE, ISN'T IT? YEAH. WELL, WHAT ABOUT THE FILIPINOS? OK, THE FILIPINO WORKERS THAT CAME IN FRAUDULENTLY, THEY'VE BEEN GIVEN A SECOND CHANCE TO STAY. THIS SITUATION'S` THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT ARE QUITE DIFFERENT THERE. FIRSTLY` BUT THEY CAME IN FRAUDULENTLY. THEY GOT TO STAY. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? LET ME GO THROUGH AS TO WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THAT. BECAUSE IT'S QUITE IMPORTANT, ISN'T IT? BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CONSISTENCY. WHEN YOU'RE READY, I'LL TAKE YOU THROUGH IT. THE REALITY IS THAT THOSE CASES, WHEN THEY WERE LOOKED INTO, MOST OF THEM HAD BEEN FOUND TO HAVE EMBELLISHED THEIR CVS, BUT ACTUALLY, THEY WOULD'VE QUALIFIED ` MOST OF THEM ` TO COME HERE ANYWAY IF THEY HADN'T DONE THAT, AND MANY OF THEM HAD BEEN IN NZ WORKING FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, THEY HAD LONG-STANDING LINKS TO THE REGION, SO THEY WERE QUITE DIFFERENT. AND THE MINISTER OF IMMIGRATION MAKES THOSE DECISIONS. SO IT GOES LIKE THIS, DOESN'T IT? ONE RULE FOR THE FILIPINOS ON THE NATIONAL-VOTING DAIRY FARMS. AND ANOTHER RULE FOR THE EXPENDABLE INDIAN STUDENTS. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. THAT'S YOUR` THAT'S YOUR CONSISTENCY. NO, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY WRONG. THE INDIAN STUDENTS AREN'T WORTH ANYTHING. NO, THAT'S NOT CORRECT. AS YOU'VE JUST POINTED OUT` THEY GO HOME ` NO REFUND, NO NOTHING. FILIPINO FARMER DOWN IN DIPTON GETS A CHANCE BECAUSE HE'S MATES WITH THE NATIONAL PARTY. NO, THAT'S NOT CORRECT. BUT MY POINT IS YOU SAID AT THE OUTSET YOU'VE GOT TO BE CAREFUL THAT WE DON'T RISK WHAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT INDUSTRY FOR NZ AND IT HAS TO HAVE CLEAR RULES, AND I, AS THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, AM ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT IF PEOPLE DON'T MEET THOSE RULES, THEN, I'M SORRY, AND IF THEY'VE BEEN FRAUDULENTLY COMING TO NZ, THEY'VE BEEN MAKING DECLARATIONS` BECAUSE, DON'T FORGET, THIS STUFF IS ACTUALLY FOR THEIR WELFARE. SO WHAT DO WE ACTUALLY ASK THEM FOR? SO NO AMNESTY. WHAT DO WE ASK THEM FOR? WE ASK THEM FOR ENGLISH LANGUAGE SKILLS THAT ALLOW THEM TO PARTICIPATE IN NZ, AND WE ASK THEM TO BRING ENOUGH MONEY SO THAT` AND OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION SHOWS THEIR AGENTS PUT IMPOSTERS IN TO DO THE TESTS, AND YOU GUYS LET THEM IN HERE. HANG ON A SECOND. AND THE SECOND THIS IS IS THAT THEY MUST BRING ENOUGH MONEY TO NZ TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES SO THEY DON'T RISK EXPLOITATION. THESE ARE THINGS FOR THEIR BENEFIT. WHICH THEIR FAMILY GET LOANS FOR, AND THEN IF THEY GET KICKED OUT, THEY GET NO REFUND. WE'LL MOVE ON, THOUGH, BECAUSE LOOK AT THIS IANZ ` ONE OF THE PROVIDERS, ONE OF THE PRIVATE TRAINING EDUCATORS. THAT'S SOLD UP AND CLOSED DOWN WHILE IT'S BEEN UNDER INVESTIGATION. THAT'S RIGHT. IS ANYONE GOING TO BE HELD RESPONSIBLE? YES. THERE'S CONTINUED INVESTIGATIONS AROUND THAT PARTICULAR` I CAN'T GO INTO THE DETAILS OF THAT. THAT PARTICULAR OPERATOR HAS A LONG HISTORY, LONG BEFORE YOU GUYS ACTUALLY SHOWED INTEREST IN IT, TO BE FAIR, BACK TO 2014, WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN HAVING ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE ENDED IN COURT OVER THE QUALITY OF THEIR EXTERNAL EVALUATIONS. INVESTIGATIONS CONTINUE THERE, AND SOMEONE WILL BE HELD TO ACCOUNT? INVESTIGATIONS CONTINUE. IT'S ULTIMATELY UP TO NZQA. I DON'T GET TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS. NZQA HAVE TOLD US YESTERDAY 11 PRIVATE TRAINING ENTERPRISES ARE UNDER INVESTIGATION SINCE JULY LAST YEAR. THERE'S ALWAYS A WHOLE LOT. WE DO ABOUT 30 TO 40 A YEAR. THERE'S SOMETHING LIKE 600 PROVIDERS INTERNATIONALLY, INCLUDING SCHOOLS AND PTES AND UNIVERSITIES AND ITPS. WE ALWAYS HAVE A NUMBER UNDER INVESTIGATION. THE POINT HERE, MINISTER, IS WE'VE GOT PROBLEMS, HAVEN'T WE, WITH THIS? WE'VE GOT 11 PRIVATE TRAINING ENTERPRISES UNDER INVESTIGATION HERE. WE'VE GOT CORRUPTION. WE ALWAYS HAVE THAT MANY, PADDY. WE ALWAYS HAVE THAT MANY. THERE'S ALWAYS THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON WHICH WE WOULD ALL PREFER NOT TO` SO THERE'S ALWAYS PROBLEMS? THERE'S ALWAYS A PERIOD OF` YEP, THERE'S ALWAYS PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING IT OVER THE LINE AND THEY SHOULDN'T BE, AND WE HAVE A PRETTY ROBUST PROCESS WHICH THEY GET INVESTIGATED, AND THERE HAS BEEN PLENTY IN THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE YEARS WHERE THEY'VE BEEN TOLD, 'YOU WILL NOT BE BRINGING ANY STUDENTS INTO NZ ANY MORE, BECAUSE YOU'VE MISBEHAVED.' WILL WE SEE MORE OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS AND SANCTIONS IN THE COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS? YOU'LL SEE A CONTINUED AMOUNT THAT CONTINUES OVER THE YEAR AHEAD, NOT JUST IN THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE, BUT ALSO ON THE DOMESTIC SPACE. WHAT WE'VE TAKEN IS AN APPROACH WHERE WE'VE BEEN TOUGHENING UP WITH ALL THE PROVIDERS, BECAUSE WE WANT TO KEEP LIFTING THE STANDARD OF QUALITY. AND SO, FOR EXAMPLE, NOW THE POINT YOU MADE EARLIER, PROVIDERS ARE EXPRESSLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BEHAVIOUR OF THEIR AGENTS IN THE MARKET. AND THAT'S FROM THE 1ST OF JULY THIS YEAR. THAT MAY WELL HAVE REPERCUSSIONS. OK, SO I WANT TO MOVE TO IMMIGRATION MORE BROADLY. ARE THE NUMBERS COMING INTO THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW, IS IT RIGHT? HAVE YOU GOT THE NUMBER COMING IN AND THE MIX RIGHT WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION? THAT'S PRIMARILY A MATTER FOR MICHAEL WOODHOUSE, BUT FROM AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PERSPECTIVE, I'D SAY BROADLY CORRECT. WE KEEP TWEAKING THEM. IT'S HARD TO GET EXACTLY THE PERFECT NUMBER AT ALL TIMES. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT, WEARING MY EMPLOYMENT HAT, UNEMPLOYMENT COMING DOWN, CITY LIKE AUCKLAND, 4.7% UNEMPLOYMENT. YOU THINK YOU'VE GOT THE NUMBER RIGHT AND THE MIX RIGHT? BROADLY, BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR ARE CERTAIN SKILLS AROUND THE COUNTRY. THERE'S PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO WILL RAISE THE ISSUE AND SAY, 'OH, YOU KNOW, WHY ARE WE BRINGING IN A BAKER,' OR WHATEVER. BUT ACTUALLY, IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, WE HAVE VERY LOW LEVELS OF UNEMPLOYMENT, AND ACTUALLY, THOSE PEOPLE HELP FILL THOSE GAPS BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T PREPARED TO DO THEM. BECAUSE I WANT TO READ YOU A LIST ABOUT IMMIGRATION HERE. YEAH, SURE. THE RESERVE BANK, THE HEAD OF ANZ ` DAVID HISCO, MICHAEL BARNETT FROM THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, FIRST-HOME BUYERS, PRINCIPALS IN AUCKLAND, WHO'LL TELL YOU THEIR CLASSROOMS ARE BURSTING, JUDITH COLLINS, YOUR POLICE MINISTER WHO BLAMED A RISE IN CRIME ON A RISE IN POPULATION THIS WEEK. THE POPULATION IS RISING. 60% OF PEOPLE IN THE NEWSHUB POLL WHO SAID IMMIGRATION NEEDS TO SLOW DOWN. ALL THESE PEOPLE THINK THAT YOU AND YOUR GOVERNMENT HAVE GOT IT WRONG. SO ARE THEY WRONG ON IMMIGRATION, OR ARE YOU? THERE'S A REASON WHY NZ IS GROWING STRONGLY, AND ONE OF THE BIGGEST` THERE'S A NUMBER OF REASONS WHY NZ IS GROWING STRONGLY AND ONE OF THE STRONGEST GROWING ECONOMIES IN THE OECD RIGHT NOW. AND THAT IS BECAUSE OUR COMPANIES ARE GROWING, THEY'RE ADDING MORE PEOPLE, THEY'RE HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY TO BRING IN SKILLED WORKERS IF THERE'S NOT ENOUGH OF THEM HERE, AND THAT'S HELPING NZ GROW, AND IT'S HELPING US ADD SOMETHING LIKE 375,000 JOBS, OR 15% OF OUR TOTAL NUMBER OF JOBS, SINCE THE GFC. SO MY POINT IS YOU CAN'T JUST SORT OF SAY, 'WELL, OK, WE'LL PICK THAT PART OF THE RECIPE OUT AND SAY WE'LL GET RID OF THAT, WE'LL GET RID OF THIS, 'WE'LL GET RID OF THAT AND HOPE TO BE GROWING STRONGLY.' BUT YOU CAN STILL BE SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT BRINGING IN 72,000 FOREIGN IMMIGRANTS A YEAR. BUT HANG ON. A) IT'S ABOUT 68,000, BUT ANYWAY, A LOT OF THOSE GO AWAY. NO, THAT'S NET MIGRATION. 72,000 FOREIGN IMMIGRANTS CAME IN` BUT MY POINT IS, FIRSTLY, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THOSE ARE INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS, AND 80% OF THOSE` THAT'S GOING WELL. AND 80% OF THOSE` YEAH, THAT IS GOING VERY WELL, THANK YOU. $3.5 BILLION. 30-SOMETHING THOUSAND JOBS` THE QUESTION IS ` AT WHAT POINT IS IT TOO MANY? NO, YOU CHUCKED OFF AT IT, AND IT IS IMPORTANT WE GET THIS RIGHT, IT'S NOT JUST FOR YOU SITTING IN A STUDIO TO SAY, 'OH, WELL, IT'S NOT GOING VERY WELL.' WELL, LET'S LOOK AT THESE REAL JOBS, BECAUSE MORE THAN 4000 CHEFS. DO WE REALLY NEED MORE THAN 4000 CHEFS IN ONE YEAR? WELL, WE TRAIN SEVERAL THOUSAND HERE IN NZ, AND IT'S ONE OF THOSE JOBS WHICH HAS A HIGH THROUGHPUT OF STAFF, AND ACTUALLY, YES, WE DO NEED THEM. 5917 TOUR GUIDES. I KNOW THERE'S A TOURISM BOOM ON, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE A LOT. WELL, IT IS. IT'S A VERY BIG TOURISM BOOM. IT SEEMS LIKE QUITE A LOT OF TOUR GUIDES. IT'S NOW OUR SECOND-LARGEST EXPORT. SO THE POINT OF ALL OF THIS` THEY'RE BRINGING THEM FROM OVERSEAS. SOME OF THEM COME FROM OVERSEAS, SOME OF THEM` NO, THIS IS 5917 VISAS. YEAH, BUT IN TERMS OF OVERALL` ...FOR TOURIST DOLLARS. THE ALTERNATIVE IS, IS YOU LITERALLY CAN SAY, 'OKAY, WE WON'T HAVE`' DO WE NEED THOSE TOURIST DOLLARS? WELL, YOU COULD SHUT IT DOWN TOMORROW. YOU COULD SAY, 'WE WON'T HAVE THE RSC WORKERS FOR OUR HORTICULTURE INDUSTRY, WHICH IS GROWING RAPIDLY. WE WON'T HAVE THE TOURIST GUIDES, WE WON'T HAVE THOSE WORKING IN HOSPITALITY, WE WON'T HAVE THE STUDENTS, AND WE WON'T HAVE THE WORKING-HOLIDAY SCHEME PEOPLE, AND WE'LL END UP WITH AN ECONOMY THAT'S GROWING ABOUT AS FAST AS SPAIN'S. OK, SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TURN OFF IMMIGRATION IN ANY WAY? NO, WE'LL CONTINUE TO FINE-TUNE IT AS REQUIRED, BUT NZERS EXPECT US TO BE ABLE TO RUN AN ECONOMY WHICH ADDS JOBS FOR KIWIS AND DELIVERS RISING INCOMES. YEP, SURE. FINAL` RISING INCOMES AND JOBS FOR KIWIS. FINAL QUESTION ` WINSTON PETERS IS UP NEXT. NOW, IF THERE IS A SITUATION WHERE YOU NEED HIS SUPPORT TO FORM THE NEXT GOVERNMENT AND HE SAYS, 'AS A CONDITION OF IT, I WANT YOU TO TURN OFF IMMIGRATION OR SLOW DOWN IMMIGRATION,' WILL YOU DO IT? PADDY, WE'RE A MILLION MILES FROM THE NEXT ELECTION. NO, WE'RE NOT. WE'RE ONE YEAR AWAY. WE'RE A YEAR AWAY. YEAH. WELL, THERE'S ONE EVERY THREE YEARS. YEAH. WE'LL ALL HOLD OUR STALLS OUT. BUT JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, WILL YOU`? NO. WILL YOU`? WE WON'T SAY, AND A) IT'S ABOVE MY PAY GRADE, B)` NOT REALLY. YES, IT IS. IT'S ABOVE MY PAY GRADE. AND SECONDLY, IT'S A LONG WAY TO RUN BETWEEN NOW AND THEN. IF WINSTON PETERS SAYS TO YOU AFTER NEXT ELECTION, 'YES, I'LL COME WITH YOU, BUT YOU'VE GOT TO SLOW DOWN IMMIGRATION,' WILL YOU SAY NO? WINSTON PETERS SAYS LOTS OF THINGS. I RECALL BEFORE THE 19` NO, NO. I KNOW` 199` NO, NO, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. ALL I'M SAYING TO YOU IS WILL YOU TURN DOWN IMMIGRATION FOR POLITICAL REASONS OR NOT? IT'S A YES OR NO QUESTION. THIS GOVERNMENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN FOCUSED ON GETTING A STRONG AND GROWING ECONOMY. YEAH, SO THAT'S A YES? SOME IMMIGRATION` NO, NO. YOU'LL NEGOTIATE IT WITH MR PETERS? NO, NO, NO. SOME IMMIGRATION IS PART OF THAT STORY, AND THE REALITY IS IT'S AN IMPORTANT PART. IT'S NOT THE WHOLE STORY IN ANY WAY. YEAH, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, MINISTER. YOU'LL TURN IT DOWN IF WINSTON PETERS ASKS YOU? NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT I'VE SAID. YOU WON'T? NO, ALL I'VE SAID IS WE WON'T` SO TELL WINSTON PETERS THAT'S NO`? NOBODY WILL BE ANSWERING THAT QUESTION THIS FAR OUT FROM AN ELECTION, PADDY. THAT'S RIGHT. SO YOU WON'T RULE IT OUT? NO. OK, WE... (LAUGHS) ALL RIGHT, WELL, WINSTON IS SURE TO HAVE PLENTY TO SAY ABOUT THAT AND A FEW OTHER THINGS. HE JOINS ME AFTER THE BREAK, THEN LATER ON, AFFCO TALLEYS HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN INDUSTRIAL DISPUTES FOR YEARS. NOW IT'S IN ANOTHER FIGHT, THIS TIME WITH THE WHANGANUI DISTRICT COUNCIL. NOW, ON OUR LATEST POLL, NZ FIRST HAD 8% OF THE VOTE, AND IT WOULD HAVE MEANT THAT AT THE NEXT ELECTION, WINSTON PETERS MAY YET AGAIN BE THE SO-CALLED KINGMAKER; HE WOULD DECIDE THE GOVERNMENT. BUT APART FROM THAT LONG-HELD VIEW OF HIS THAT IMMIGRATION NEEDS TO BE CUT, WHAT ELSE DOES THE NZ FIRST PARTY STAND FOR? AND WHAT WILL WINSTON'S BARGAINING POSITIONS BE? HE JOINS ME NOW FROM HIS PARTY'S ANNUAL CONFERENCE IN DUNEDIN. AND, WINSTON PETERS, STARTING WITH STEVEN JOYCE, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF HIS HANDLING OF INTERNATIONAL EDUCATION AND HANDLING OF THE STUDENT VISA ISSUES? WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN? WELL, LOOK, WHAT YOU'VE JUST SEEN WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY RISIBLE OR LAUGHABLE IF IT WEREN'T SO SERIOUS. HE DIDN'T KNOW HALF THE FACTS, AND THEN HE KNEW ALL THE FACTS, AND THEN HE GOT CONFUSED AS TO WHO WAS AN IMMIGRANT. HE HAD OVERSEAS STUDENTS BEING IMMIGRANTS, HE HAD TOURISTS BEING IMMIGRANTS, AND HE WAS AN ABSOLUTE MISHMASH OF MISINFORMATION. AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, NZERS MUST SURELY UNDERSTAND THAT THE REPUTATION OF THEIR COUNTRY, WHICH NOW APPEARS IN NEWSPAPERS IN NEW YORK, HAS BEEN SERIOUSLY TARNISHED WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION. AND WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN TO STEVEN JOYCE AS MINISTER? YOU'VE SAID PUBLICLY THIS MORNING, ACTUALLY, THAT HE SHOULD BE FIRED. DO YOU...? WELL, YOU KNOW, IN 2012, WE WERE THE ONES THAT RAISED THE FRAUD THAT WAS COMING OUT OF CHINESE STUDENT APPLICATIONS, NOT MR JOYCE; NZ FIRST DID. AND ON THE REST, WE'RE THE PARTY THAT'S GOT AUTHENTICITY ON THIS MATTER, NOT COAT-TAILING IT LIKE SOME OTHER PARTIES ARE NOW. BUT WE RAISED IT IN 2012, AS A CONSEQUENCE THE CHINESE DID PULL BACK, AND THEN WE HAD EXPORT EDUCATION IN THIS COUNTRY IN TROUBLE, NOT GETTING ENOUGH STUDENTS, BECAUSE WE CAN'T COMPETE AGAINST THE BEST OUT OF CANADA, THE UK, AUSTRALIA AND THE USA. AND SO THEY ` MR KEY AND MR JOYCE ` DECIDED THAT THEY'D OFFER AN INCENTIVE. WE'D GIVE THEM A RIGHT TO WORK 20 HOURS A WEEK ` THAT IS, EARN THEIR INCOME IN NZ TO PAY FOR THEIR EDUCATION IN NZ ` AND WE'D GIVE THEM ` MANY OF THEM ` A PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP. THOSE WERE THE TWO INCENTIVES. AND SO HERE COMES THE SCAM. NOW THEY'VE GOT A SERIOUS REASON TO START COMMITTING FRAUD. SO WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN TO STEVEN JOYCE? WELL, STEVEN JOYCE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED A LONG, LONG TIME AGO. HOW MANY TIMES CAN YOU SCREW UP AND GO ON TV IN A MASS CASE OF SPIN AND MISINFORMATION AND GET AWAY WITH IT? I MEAN` SO HE SHOULD BE SACKED? HE WAS GOING TO BE MR FIX-IT. NO, NO`ON NOVOPAY, HE NEVER FIXED IT. SO SHOULD HE BE FIRED AS MINISTER OR NOT? SHOULD HE BE FIRED AS MINISTER OVER THIS OR NOT? WELL, OF COURSE. LOOK, WHEN YOU SEE WHOLESALE FRAUD GOING ON AND THAT HAS BEEN CONDONED BY THE MINISTER AND ENCOURAGED BY THE MINISTER ` EVEN THOUGH HE SAYS OTHERWISE NOW ` OF COURSE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED, BUT A LONG TIME AGO. SO WHAT WOULD HAPPEN THEN IN THIS SCENARIO WHERE YOU HOLD THE BALANCE OF POWER? WOULD YOU ALLOW STEVEN JOYCE TO BE A MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION IN ANY GOVERNMENT THAT YOU HAD TO BE PART OF? LOOK, PADDY, YOU AND YOUR MEDIA COLLEAGUES DON'T GET IT. IT IS NOT THE BALANCE OF POWER THAT NZ FIRST WANTS. WHAT NZ FIRST WANTS IS A DRAMATIC ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL CHANGE IN THIS COUNTRY, NOT THE KIND OF THING YOU JUST SAW ON YOUR PROGRAMME WHERE THIS COUNTRY'S REPUTATION HAS BEEN TARNISHED, A COUNTRY WITH FIRST-WORLD RIGHTS HAS SEEN PEOPLE BE ABUSED, MISUSED` OKAY. OKAY, SAVE THIS SPEECH. SAVE THIS SPEECH FOR YOUR CONFERENCE AND COME BACK TO ` WILL YOU HAPPILY SIT ALONGSIDE STEVEN JOYCE ON THE GOVERNMENT BENCHES, OR IS THIS JUST A LOAD OF TALK? I'M GOING TO PREFACE THIS SPEECH LIKE EVERY SPEECH I'M GOING TO GIVE FROM THE LAST 12 MONTHS` BUT WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU, MR PETERS, IS THAT YOU CAN'T SAY, 'OH, STEVEN JOYCE SHOULD BE FIRED,' AND THEN IN 12 MONTHS' TIME GO AND SIT WITH HIM ON THE GOVERNMENT BENCHES. GIVE PEOPLE AN UNDERTAKING NOW THAT HE WON'T BE THERE OR ELSE YOU ARE, QUITE FRANKLY, ALL TALK. WELL, I'LL GIVE YOU AN UNDERTAKING RIGHT NOW. HOW COULD SOMEBODY WITH ANY SELF-RESPECT AND INTEGRITY LIKE MR JOYCE STAY AROUND WHEN HE KNOWS HE FACES A COLLEAGUE IN CABINET LIKE WINSTON PETERS OF NZ FIRST? HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S BEEN DOING IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO THE NATION'S INTERESTS, AND I DON'T SEE HIM BEING THERE IN 12 MONTHS' TIME, BUT YOU GUYS MIGHT. BUT THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A GUY WHO'S NEVER WON A SEAT. BUT THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT. NO, SORRY, PADDY. YOU'LL GO INTO GOVERNMENT WITH HIM. PADDY, YOU WERE GOING SO WELL. PADDY, REPEATING YOURSELF IS NOT GOING TO IMPRESS THE AUDIENCE. YOU CAN SAY THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I DON'T THINK STEVEN JOYCE WILL BE STANDING UP AFTER THE ELECTION NIGHT 2017 OR WHENEVER THEY FLY THE FLAG. THERE'S A HUGE CHANGE GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY. LET ME TELL YOU THERE'S GOING TO BE A HUGE PROTEST OUTSIDE AN INDIAN MP'S MT ROSKILL PLACE THIS MORNING, TODAY, ON THIS ISSUE BECAUSE NOW YOU'VE GOT STUDENTS IN THEIR HUNDREDS SAYING THAT IS WRONG. ON THOSE STUDENTS, THEN, WINSTON PETERS, WHERE THERE WILL BE THE PROTEST DAY, SHOULD THEY GET THE CHANCE AT AMNESTY, A SECOND CHANCE, A CHANCE TO STAY IN THIS COUNTRY IF IT HASN'T BEEN THEIR FAULT, IF IT'S BEEN THE CORRUPT AGENT IN INDIA? SHOULD THOSE STUDENTS`? OF COURSE THEY SHOULD. OF COURSE THEY SHOULD. OF COURSE THEY SHOULD. WE'VE SAID THAT, UNLIKE MR JOYCE'S CLAIM, HE SAYS THEY SIGNED THE APPLICATION, THEREFORE THEY ARE FULLY RESPONSIBLE. LOOK, THE APPLICATIONS WERE PREPARED FRAUDULENTLY BY AGENTS. THEY WERE OFFERED JOBS IN NZ, 20 HOURS A WEEK, FRAUDULENTLY BY AGENTS. EVERYWHERE YOU SEE FRAUD, EVEN IN TERMS OF EXPORT EDUCATION IN NZ. THOSE STUDENTS WHO ARE INNOCENT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO STAY, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO RESCUE THIS COUNTRY'S REPUTATION OF DEALING WITH PEOPLE, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY COME FROM, FAIRLY. IT'S ABOUT EQUALITY AND WHAT A DECENT SOCIETY WOULD DO. BUT I'D GO AFTER THOSE AGENTS. I'D BEEN GOING AFTER THEM YEARS AGO, AS WE HAVE ARGUED IN PARLIAMENT FOR A LONG, LONG TIME. OK, ANOTHER DEVELOPMENT ON THE IMMIGRATION FRONT THAT WE SAW THIS WEEK WAS THE START OF AN INDIAN PARTY, THE PEOPLE'S PARTY. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT? WHAT DOES THAT SHOW US ABOUT NZ IN YOUR VIEW, THAT WE NOW HAVE AN IMMIGRANT PARTY, AN IMMIGRANT-ORIENTATED PARTY? WELL, WHEN YOU SEE THINGS, DON'T JUST BELIEVE WHAT YOU SEE. THE PERSON THAT WAS THE SPOKESPERSON AND THE TEMPORARY LEADER FOR THAT PARTY JUST AT A RECENT RAFFLE FOR FUNDRAISING FOR THE NATIONAL PARTY OFFERED $20,000 IN A BID FOR THE PRIME MINISTER TO HAVE BREAKFAST AT HIS PLACE. HE GOT BEATEN BY A BID OF $27,000. THIS IS A NATIONAL PARTY FRONT. I'M SURE YOU GUYS IN THE MEDIA WITH THE PRESENCE OF MIND OF POLITICS, WITH ALL YOUR EXPERIENCE HAVE PICKED THIS UP, BECAUSE I HAVE. WELL, WHAT USE IS IT AS A NATIONAL PARTY FRONT? IT'S A POLITICAL PARTY. WHAT USE IS IT AS A NATIONAL PARTY FRONT? BECAUSE IT SPLITS OTHER PARTIES' VOTES, AND YOU'LL SEE IT POTENTIALLY` BUT PROBABLY NOT AFTER I'VE OUTED THEM RIGHT NOW. BUT GOING FOR MT ROSKILL, THERE WERE PEOPLE SAYING YESTERDAY THAT'S WHAT THEY WOULD DO. THEY WON'T BE AFTER` I'VE JUST TOLD YOU WHAT I'VE JUST TOLD YOU. SO IT'S A WAY OF KEEPING LABOUR OUT OF MT ROSKILL, THIS PEOPLE'S PARTY, A NATIONAL PARTY FRONT THAT'S A WAY OF`? PRECISELY. THAT'S RIGHT. BASED ON RACE, BEEN HERE FOR FIVE MINUTES, DEMAND TO HAVE A POLITICAL PARTY OF THEIR OWN. WHICH NZER WOULD GO TO ANY COUNTRY IN EUROPE OR ASIA AND DEMAND TO HAVE THEIR OWN POLITICAL PARTY? THEY'RE NZ` WE'RE NOT GETTING RESPECT HERE. THEY'RE NZ CITIZENS, AND THEY'VE BEEN HERE FOR YEARS, AND THIS IS A DEMOCRACY, WINSTON PETERS. I KNOW IT'S A DEMOCRACY. I KNOW IT'S A DEMOCRACY. THEY'RE JUST SETTING UP A POLITICAL PARTY. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. IT'S ALL WITHIN THE RULES. NO, NO, THEY'RE SETTING UP A MOVEMENT BASED ON RACE, AND MY PARTY IS UTTERLY OPPOSED TO IT. WE HAVE ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE IN OUR PARTY ` CHINESE, INDIAN, ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE. IT'S NOT BASED ON RACE; IT'S BASED ON IMMIGRATION. OK, SO ON IMMIGRATION. WE'LL MOVE ON TO THAT. NO, NO, IT'S NOT` NO, PADDY, WHO DO YOU THINK`? HANG ON. WHO DO YOU THINK MY INFORMANT IS ON THIS INDIAN PARTY? THEY'RE INDIANS IN NZ FIRST. WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING. SOME OF YOU GUYS MAY NOT. OK, MOVING ON TO IMMIGRATION MORE BROADLY NOW. IF YOU ARE IN THIS KINGMAKER POSITION AFTER THE ELECTION, WILL YOU`? OH, PADDY, YOU'RE BACK ON THE KINGMAKER. WELL, NO, IT'S ACTUALLY BACK ON` WE'RE GOING TO TURN YOUR POLLS` IT'S ACTUALLY BACK ON HOW YOU WOULD ACT IN GOVERNMENT ON A MAJOR POLICY ISSUE, SO JUST HEAR ME OUT. WILL YOU`? NO, PADDY. NO, PADDY. I'M NOT GOING TO BE PRESCRIPTED BY THE MEDIA IN THE NEXT 12 MONTHS. LET ME TELL YOU THIS ` YOU'VE GOT THE PARTIES OF THE RIGHT; YOU'VE GOT A WHOLE LOT OF CLING-ONS; YOU'VE GOT A WHOLE LOT OF PARTIES ON THE LEFT CLINGING ON TO EACH OTHER AS WELL. OUR PARTY IS RUNNING OURSELVES ALONE. SAVE THE SPEECH` AND THAT'S WHAT THE NEXT BATTLE'S GOING TO BE ABOUT. I'M TRYING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT IMMIGRATION, NOT LISTEN TO YOUR SPEECH FOR TOMORROW'S CONFERENCE A DAY EARLY. NOW, WILL YOU`? WELL, YOU SHOULD DO, PADDY, BECAUSE YOU'D BE VERY HELPFUL TO THE PEOPLE OF NZ IF YOU DID. WILL YOU DEMAND THAT IMMIGRATION IS SERIOUSLY CUT BACK OR DROPPED AS A CONDITION OF YOU GOING WITH ANY GOVERNMENT, BE IT LED BY LABOUR OR LED BY NATIONAL? I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M ON A PROGRAMME WHERE AN EXPERIENCED, SERIOUS, RESPECTABLE JOURNALIST LIKE YOU ASKS ME A QUESTION LIKE THAT. YOU KNOW WHAT OUR POLICY IS. IT IS TO CUT TO THE BONE TO PEOPLE WE NEED, NOT WHO NEED US. AND THEN THAT'D BE`? GET THAT VERY CLEARLY OUT TO THE NZ PEOPLE. WE'RE NOT COMPROMISING ON THAT OR FOR SALES OF OUR ASSETS TO OFFSHORE INTERESTS OR MASSIVE OFFSHORE MONEY BUYING UP THIS COUNTRY'S FUTURE. NO. WE'VE GOT A LINE IN THE SAND AS CLEAR AS DAYLIGHT, AND YOU'VE GOT A CHANCE IN THE NEXT ELECTION TO SIGN UP ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THIS COUNTRY'S FUTURE. ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WINSTON. (CHUCKLES) WE'RE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH. CHEERS. NOW, LOTS TO TALK ABOUT ` HE'S BACK, ISN'T HE ` WITH OUR PANEL LATER IN THE PROGRAMME. RIGHT NOW, THOUGH, JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO ANSWER THEIR OWN POLITICAL QUESTIONS. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` UFEPP? OH, THE UNITED FUTURE ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY PACKAGE? GOOD GUESS, PAUL. YES, UNITED FUTURE ` ANOTHER PARTY WHO HAS THOSE FAT, JUICY TOURISTS IN THEIR SIGHTS. WANT TO STING THEM WITH A $25 FEE TO CONSERVE THE LAND OF THE LONG WHITE CLOUD. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY LONG WHITE CLOUD, I ASSUME YOU MEAN PETER DUNNE'S HAIR, RIGHT? INDEED. IS IT RIGHT TO BE SHAKING DOWN TOURISTS, THOUGH, PAUL? ISN'T IT ENOUGH THAT THEY'RE VISITING OUR COUNTRY? WELL, WE ARE KNOWN FOR OUR FLEECE. GOOD POINT. BESIDES WHICH, DESTROYING TOURISM LIKE THAT IS GOING TO MAKE DAIRY THE NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY AGAIN, WHICH IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. THE KIWI WAY. SPEAKING OF THE ENVIRONMENT, IS DR SMITH RIGHT WHEN HE SAYS MAKING ALL OUR WATERWAYS SWIMMABLE IS JUST IMPRACTICAL? WELL, I DON'T THINK SO. I MEAN, THEY'RE ALL SWIMMABLE RIGHT NOW, AREN'T THEY? YOU KNOW, SURVIVABLE IS A TOUGH ONE TO CRACK. AND DRINKABLE. FORGET IT. LABOUR WANTS MORE FRONT-LINE POLICE. YEAH, SAME PROBLEM AS RUGBY, ISN'T IT? EVERYONE WANTS TO BE IN THE BACK LINE. THEY'RE STRESSED, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH OF THEM, AND THEY'RE JUST NOT MAKING ANY IMPACT. SEE, YOU TALKING ABOUT LABOUR OR THE POLICE THEN? MM. AND NZ FIRST, THEY'VE GOT THEIR CONFERENCE THIS WEEKEND. YOU GOING ALONG TO THAT, PAUL? WELL, I WASN'T GOING TO, BUT THEN I GOT A SUMMONS SAYING BECAUSE OF MY ASIAN ETHNICITY I ACTUALLY HAVE TO GO. IT'S THE LAW. YEAH, SAME. IMF ARE SAYING WE'RE THE MOST UNAFFORDABLE COUNTRY IN THE OECD FOR HOUSING. IT'S GREAT. ANOTHER GOLD. HOW MANY'S THAT NOW? FIVE? FIVE, YEAH. NICE TO HAVE ONE THAT'S NOT ON THE WATER. OH, WHAT A CHANGE. WELL, TALLEY'S ` IT'S ONE OF NZ'S LARGEST FOOD COMPANIES, AND SINCE IT TOOK OWNERSHIP OF AFFCO MEAT PLANTS BACK IN 2010, IT'S BEEN IN A PRETTY WELL-PUBLICISED DISPUTE WITH UNIONS. AFFCO PLANTS OPERATE IN SMALL RURAL AREAS ACROSS THE NORTH ISLAND, OFTEN FORMING THE BACKBONE OF EMPLOYMENT FOR THOSE COMMUNITIES. NOW THE UNIONS ` THE UNIONS ` ARE TAKING A NEW APPROACH WHICH THEY HOPE WILL IMPROVE BOTH WORKERS' RIGHTS AND THE TREATMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT. HERE IS CAITLIN MCGEE WITH THE STORY. DOWNBEAT MUSIC THEY'RE HOLDING THE COMMUNITY TO RANSOM. MUSIC CONTINUES THE MORE AFFCO BECOMES A GOOD CORPORATE CITIZEN IN TOWN, THE BETTER. MUSIC CONTINUES TALLEY'S DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WORKERS. OPERATING A BUSINESS IN A SMALL COMMUNITY IS A TWO-WAY STREET. WE WANT TO SEE A FAIR SHARE. MUSIC CONTINUES RESTING ON THE FRINGES OF THE RIVER CITY, THE AFFCO IMLAY MEATWORKS IN WHANGANUI HAS BEEN HERE FOR MORE THAN A CENTURY. IT'S THE INDUSTRIAL HEART OF THE COMMUNITY AND PROVIDES HUNDREDS OF JOBS. PHILLIP REWETI WAS ONE OF ITS BUTCHERS. HE'D BEEN ON AND OFF THERE SINCE THE '70S. HE'S TECHNICALLY STILL ON THEIR BOOKS BUT IS A STAUNCH UNION MEMBER. AND WHEN TALLEY'S TOOK OVER AFFCO IN 2010, HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE COMPANY SOURED. WORKERS LOST THEIR RIGHTS. UM, FAIRNESS ` THERE'S NO FAIRNESS AT WORK. UH, THE COMPANY WANTED YOU TO WORK FOR LESS PAY, LONGER HOURS, AND I THINK OUR HEALTH-AND-SAFETY ACT WENT OUT THE DOOR WHEN THEY CAME ALONG. WHY I'M STANDING FOR COUNCIL IS BASICALLY ONE OF THOSE REASONS ` BRING BACK THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF WORKERS AND THEIR RIGHTS. ACCORDING TO OFFICIAL INFORMATION, BETWEEN 2011 AND JUNE THIS YEAR WORKSAFE INVESTIGATED AFFCO PLANTS AROUND THE COUNTRY 77 TIMES. AND JUST LAST WEEK, WORKSAFE FILED CHARGES AGAINST AFFCO IN THE CASE OF BRIAN WRIGHT. WRIGHT WAS WORKING AT THE IMLAY PLANT IN WHANGANUI. HE SAYS HE ASKED AFFCO MANAGEMENT TO PROVIDE SAFETY GLASSES WHILE HE SHOVELLED ANIMAL GUTS, BONES AND BLOOD, BUT THEY REFUSED. WHILE HE WAS CLEANING IT UP, SOME OF THE TOXIC MIX SPLASHED OFF HIS SHOVEL INTO HIS LEFT EYE, LEADING TO A NEAR-FATAL INFECTION. HE GOT SICK VERY QUICKLY, AND TWO WEEKS LATER HE HAD TO HAVE, UM, HEART VALVE REPLACEMENTS, THE COMPANY IS DUE TO APPEAR IN COURT ON SEPTEMBER 6TH. IN A STATEMENT, AFFCO SAID... IT ADDED... FOR YEARS, MEATWORKERS HAD BEEN EMPLOYED UNDER COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS AS PART OF THE UNION. BUT WHEN TALLEY'S TOOK OVER AFFCO, IT STARTED BYPASSING THE UNION AND PRESENTING WORKERS WITH INDIVIDUAL EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENTS, OR IEAs. WELL, THE BIG CHANGES WERE INCREASING THEIR DAILY HOURS AND CUTTING DOWN THE WEEKLY MINIMUMS. WEEKLY MINIMUMS ARE REALLY IMPORTANT FOR MEAT WORKERS BECAUSE OF THE FLUCTUATIONS OF THE SEASONS. THERE, OF COURSE, WERE NO UNION RIGHTS. SIGNING THE IEAs BECAME A CONDITION OF RE-EMPLOYMENT. IT'S CAUSED A BITTER RIFT BETWEEN AFFCO AND THE MEATWORKERS' UNION THAT'S LED TO LOCKOUTS AND DISPUTES IN THE EMPLOYMENT COURT. FROM A UNION PERSPECTIVE AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS SOMEONE THAT'S BEEN AROUND THE LABOUR MOVEMENT FOR MANY YEARS AS A UNION LEADER AND THEN AS AN MP, THEY ARE LIKE NO OTHER COMPANY. WITH AFFCO, IF YOU DISAGREE ` ANYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH THEM BECOMES THE ENEMY. AND THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT ` THE MEAT WORKERS UNION IS PUBLIC ENEMY NUMBER ONE. NOW A COALITION OF UNIONS ARE TAKING A NEW APPROACH BY ENCOURAGING THEIR WORKERS TO RUN FOR COUNCIL IN UPCOMING LOCAL BODY ELECTIONS. IT'S TAKING AIM AT AFFCO, AS WELL AS PUSHING FOR BROADER SCHEMES LIKE APPRENTICESHIPS TO UPSKILL THE COMMUNITY. TWO AFFCO WORKERS ARE STANDING, WHILE UNION DELEGATES WHO DON'T WORK FOR THE COMPANY ARE PUTTING THEMSELVES UP IN SMALL TOWNS WHERE AFFCO PLANTS ARE BASED, PLACES LIKE WAIROA, MOEREWA AND WHANGANUI, COMMUNITIES THAT RELY HEAVILY ON THE MEATWORKS FOR JOBS. I THINK OPERATING A BUSINESS IN A SMALL COMMUNITY HAS` IS A TWO-WAY STREET. IT'S NOT A ONE-WAY THING. SO A COMPANY LIKE TALLEY'S WOULD SAY, 'WELL, WE PROVIDE JOBS,' THAT'S TRUE, BUT ALSO THEY'VE GOT TO BE PREPARED TO GIVE SOMETHING BACK TO THE COMMUNITY WHICH` IN TERMS OF KEEPING, YOU KNOW, SUSTAINABILITY, KEEPING THE ENVIRONMENT CLEAN, NOT POURING RUBBISH INTO THE RIVERS, PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE OF RATES AND OTHER THINGS AND ACTUALLY TREATING THEIR WORKERS WELL. ONE ARCHITECT OF THE INITIATIVE IS FORMER CTU BOSS HELEN KELLY. THEY ARE HOLDING THE COMMUNITY TO RANSOM. THEY ARE SAYING, 'YOU SIGN A COLLECTIVE EMPLOYMENT THAT REALLY RIPS THE GUTS OUT OF THIS COMMUNITY, 'MAKES YOU SEASONAL, CUTS YOUR WAGES IF YOU WANT US TO WORK HERE.' AND WE'RE SAYING, 'ACTUALLY, NO, THOSE AREN'T THE CONDITIONS THAT WE WANT YOU TO OPERATE IN THIS COMMUNITY. 'WE WANT YOU TO BE A GOOD CITIZEN. 'WE WELCOME YOU, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TOLERATE JUST THE BAD SIDE, THE DOWNSIDE.' PHILLIP REWETI IS STANDING IN WHANGANUI. FOR HIM, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WORKERS' RIGHTS. THERE'S A BIGGER, DIRTIER ISSUE. WHICH I BELIEVE THEY ARE THE PROBLEM WITH THE WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANT. BY THE LOOKS OF IT, THEY WANT TO JUST PIPE IT ALL OUT TO THE RIVER OR OUT TO SEA AND GET AWAY WITH` GET AWAY WITH PAYING NO RATES. THEY JUST WANT TO USE THE WHANGANUI RATEPAYERS, THE PEOPLE OF WHANGANUI. THE AFFCO IMLAY PLANT IS THE TOWN'S BIGGEST PRODUCER OF WASTE, AND IT'S BEEN DUMPING MORE THAN IT'S ALLOWED. MINUTES FROM THE WHANGANUI DISTRICT COUNCIL SHOW ALL SIX TRADE WASTE CONTRIBUTORS WERE SAMPLED IN FEBRUARY 2014. OVER 10 WORKING DAYS, THE COUNCIL TESTED AFFCO IMLAY'S WASTE. ON EIGHT OF THEM, AFFCO EXCEEDED ITS WASTE LIMIT. IN THE MOST EXTREME CASES, AFFCO PRODUCED MORE THAN DOUBLE IT'S ALLOWED AMOUNT OF WHAT'S KNOWN AS BIOLOGICAL OXYGEN DEMAND. IT DUMPED 20,558KG. ITS LIMIT FOR OIL AND GREASE IS JUST OVER 1500KG PER DAY, AND INSTEAD IT DISCARDED 6215. AND THE TOTAL IT'S ALLOWED FOR SUSPENDED SOLIDS EACH DAY IS 5200KG. IT TRIPLED THAT AND DUMPED 15,777. NEVER ONCE IN ANY REPORTING PERIOD DID IT MANAGE TO MEET ITS CONSENT. IT ALSO OWES THE COUNCIL SUBSTANTIAL SUMS IN UNPAID RATES. AND THEY CHALLENGE OUR CHARGING MODEL, AND THEY DO THAT CONSISTENTLY, UM, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S THEIR RIGHT TO DO THAT. BUT IT MEANS THE COUNCIL HAS TO GET INTO DIALOGUE WITH AFFCO TO TRY AND RESOLVE, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S A DISPUTE ABOUT MEASUREMENT OR, UM, THE TRADE WASTE MODEL. UM, IT'S QUITE A CONSISTENT BUSINESS POSITION OF AFFCO. WHANGANUI'S WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANT FAILED IN 2013. ALL THE SLUDGE NOW GETS PUMPED OUT TO SEA UNTREATED, AND THE COUNCIL HAS BEEN UNDER PRESSURE TO FIND A SOLUTION THAT'S KINDER TO THE ENVIRONMENT. THE COUNCIL HAS GIVEN THE GREEN LIGHT FOR THE NEW $41 MILLION PLANT TO GO AHEAD. THE COST AND SCALE OF IT MEANS IT IS DESIGNED TO HOLD INDUSTRIAL-SIZE WASTE, BUT IT MIGHT HAVE TO PROCEED WITHOUT THE FUNDING OR WASTE OF ITS BIGGEST USER. THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE REPORTED THAT, UM, HE'S BEEN IN NEGOTIATION WITH AFFCO FOR THE LAST, UM, SIX, SEVEN WEEKS TO TRY AND RESOLVE WHETHER THEY ARE IN OR OUT OF THE PLANT, AND AFFCO JUST HAVEN'T SIGNED A MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING THAT WAS PROFFERED. AND BECAUSE OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, WE HAVE TO PROVIDE CURRENT AND FUTURE ANTICIPATED NEEDS OF THE COMMUNITY. AFFCO ARE CURRENTLY IN THE WASTEWATER TREATMENT SCHEME. UNLESS THEY IRREVOCABLY REMOVE THEMSELVES, WE'VE GOT TO ASSUME THEY ARE IN. SO THE COUNCIL ARE COUNTING ON AFFCO USING THE NEW WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANT. THEY COULD PULL OUT AND GO IT ALONE, BUT THE DEPUTY MAYOR SAYS THERE WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT HURDLES. MY MAJOR CONCERN WOULD BE, UH, HOW THEY MONITOR THE WASTE THEY` IN FACT, THEY'D NEED A RESOURCE CONSENT. I DON'T THINK THEY'D GET A RESOURCE CONSENT, SO THEY NEED TO USE OURS AND HOW WE'D MONITOR THEIR PORTION OF THE OUTFLOW, SO THAT'S A MAJOR CONCERN. IN RESPONSE, AFFCO TOLD THE NATION... BERTIE RATA IS THE UNION'S TOP REPRESENTATIVE AT THE RANGIURU PLANT IN THE BAY OF PLENTY. SHE'S WORKED THERE FOR 15 YEARS, BUT SINCE TALLEY'S TOOK OWNERSHIP IN 2010, SHE'S BEEN LOCKED OUT, DEMOTED, SACKED AND REINSTATED. WE'VE HAD, UM, ONGOING ISSUES WITH WORKERS WHO ARE IN THE UNION BEING DISADVANTAGED. UM, YOU'VE GOT BUTCHERS BEING PUT ON LABOURER'S JOBS. UM, YOU'VE HAD PEOPLE THAT AREN'T` THAT HAVE GIVEN THE JOB 35 YEARS' SERVICE, 40 YEARS' SERVICE, THEY'VE TAKEN TIME OFF BECAUSE THEY'RE SICK OR THEIR CHILD IS SICK AND BECAUSE OF THOSE ISSUES, THE COMPANY HAVE SAID THEY'VE HAD BAD ABSENTEEISM. RATA'S ALSO PUT HER HAT IN TO RUN FOR COUNCIL. SHE'S HOPING A SEAT AT THE TABLE WILL STOP WORKERS' RIGHTS AND THE COMMUNITY'S RESOURCES BEING WASHED OUT TO SEA. OUR WASTE-DISPOSAL, EVERYTHING LIKE THAT AND OUR ENVIRONMENT THAT AFFCO USE, UM, MAKING SURE THAT THEY ARE ACCOUNTABLE. IF THE COMMUNITY HAVE A PROBLEM OR ISSUES, YOU KNOW, IF I'M SITTING ON COUNCIL, THEY CAN COME TO ME AND SAY, 'HEY, BERTIE, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM. HOW CAN YOU HELP US?' AND, WELL, I'M THEIR VOICE. NOW, AFFCO DECLINED TO APPEAR IN THAT STORY, BUT SENT US WRITTEN ANSWERS TO SPECIFIC QUESTIONS. IN ADDITION TO THE CASE OF BRIAN WRIGHT AND THE WHANGANUI WASTE RATES, THE COMPANY SAID... NOW, AFTER THE BREAK, OUR POWERHOUSE PANEL ` BERNARD HICKEY, JANE YOUNG AND TIM MURPHY ARE HERE. ESTEEMED TV3, FORMER TV3 POLITICAL EDITOR AND GALLERY LUMINARY, JANE YOUNG. WELCOME BACK TO NZ AS WELL, NOT JUST WELCOME BACK FROM THE BREAK. OH, IT'S GREAT TO BE BACK. YEAH. FORMER NZ HERALD EDITOR TIM MURPHY, WHO USED TO BE A RECLUSE BUT IS NOW A MEDIA WHIZZ-KID AND A SORT OF START-UP GENIUS. AND BERNARD HICKEY, ECONOMIC EXPERT, HIVE NEWS AND MY MATE ACROSS THE HALLWAY IN THE GALLERY WHO I ASK EVERY ECONOMIC QUESTION OF. NOW, I'LL START WITH YOU, BERNARD. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT INTERVIEW WITH STEVEN JOYCE? THE NUMBERS IN PARTICULAR OF POTENTIALLY FRAUDULENT OR FRAUDULENT INDIAN STUDENTS IN NZ ` HAVE WE GOT A BIG PROBLEM HERE? YEAH, HE KNOWS IT'S A PROBLEM, AND AS MR FIX-IT, AND IT'S IN HIS WATCH IN TERTIARY EDUCATION AND MIGRATION. HE KNOWS HE NEEDS TO KEEP ON TOP OF THIS. AND THEY'VE BEEN WORKING FOR THE LAST YEAR OR TWO TO TRY AND UNDO SOME OF THE DAMAGE THEY THEMSELVES DID A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. REMEMBER, IT WAS THE GOVERNMENT THAT CHANGED THE WORK RIGHTS IN 2013 AND LOOSENED THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE RULES WHICH UNLEASHED THIS FLOOD OF APPLICATIONS FROM INDIA. THEN IMMIGRATION NZ WASN'T ABLE TO DEAL WITH IT AND ROOT OUT THE FRAUD. THEY'RE NOW HAVING TO ESSENTIALLY DO A RESCUE MISSION HERE ON THE WHOLE PROCESS TO PROTECT THE REPUTATION OF NZ'S EXPORT EDUCATION INDUSTRY. SO HE KNOWS, AND HE'S FOCUSED ON IT, ON TRYING TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE, AND THERE'LL BE MORE TO COME, BECAUSE IN THE LAST WEEK, THE INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY'S SHUT DOWN HAS REALLY UNLEASHED A PROBLEM. 380 KIDS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RESIT THEIR EXAMS, AND HE KNOWS THERE'S A REPUTATIONAL RISK HERE. WE'RE TALKING, BY THE SOUNDS OF THINGS, ABOUT HUNDREDS, MAYBE EVEN OVER A THOUSAND STUDENTS WHO AREN'T MEANT TO BE HERE. TIM, THAT'S BIG NUMBERS. IT IS, BUT IT'S NOT THAT SURPRISING, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE THERE ARE BIG NUMBERS HERE, AND THE CULTURE OF THE COUNTRY IN QUESTION ` INDIA ` THERE'S A CULTURE THERE OF... SYSTEMATICALLY OF PAYBACKS AND BACKHANDERS TO THE POINT THAT WHEN ONE OF THE GOVERNMENT'S CHANGES WAS TO REQUIRE THAT STUDENTS WHO CAME HERE COULD SHOW THEY HAD A YEAR'S WORTH OF FUNDING AHEAD OF THEM, AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT REGARD WAS THAT THEN THERE BECAME A SORT OF A PROBLEM WITH BANK MANAGERS IN INDIA, HAVING BEEN DRAWN IN TO PAY OFF SOME CORRUPTION TO SHOW THAT THEY DID. SO THERE WERE FALSE BANK STATEMENTS. SO EVERYTHING YOU TRY, EVERY NEW REGULATION YOU PUT IN, THERE'S A WAY AROUND IT. SO I'M NOT SURPRISED ABOUT IT. IT'S GOOD THAT THEY'RE ON TO IT. BUT IT ALSO SEEMS THAT THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF WHAT ARE THEY SELLING, AND THEY ARE SELLING CITIZENSHIP. BECAUSE IF YOU ACTUALLY PARE IT DOWN, AND I RESULTED TO THE AGE-OLD ASK MY TAXI DRIVER ON IN THE WAY IN FROM THE AIRPORT THIS MORNING, AND HE HAPPENED TO BE FROM INDIA, AND HE HAPPENED TO BE HERE FIVE YEARS AGO AT A BUSINESS SCHOOL IN NEWMARKET. AND HE CAME BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO THAT PATH. HE DID HIS ONE OR TWO YEARS AT THE BUSINESS SCHOOL, WHICH HAS NOW CLOSED DOWN, AND HE JUST SAID THESE KIDS, ESPECIALLY FROM` A LOT OF THEM COME FROM PUNJAB AREA, AND THEY'RE KIDS ` THEY'RE 17 AND 18 YEARS OLD ` AND THEY ROCK UP WITH THEIR FAMILIES. THEIR FAMILIES, LIKE ALL PARENTS, WANT THEM TO HAVE A BETTER LIFE. IT'S NOT NECESSARILY FOR THE EDUCATION. THE EDUCATION IS THE WAY IN. THERE ARE LOT OF INSTITUTIONS IN INDIA WHERE THEY COULD GET THEIR EDUCATION FROM AS ENGINEERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. BUT THESE ARE KIDS, AND THEY ARE SIGNING THESE DOCUMENTS, BUT THEY'RE BEING RIPPED OFF, BECAUSE IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO ARE, 'OH, IF THIS DOESN'T QUITE MATCH UP, WE'LL JUST DO A BIT OF TWEAKING HERE,' AND THAT'S WHERE THE BANK GUYS COME IN, AND THESE ARE THE KIDS, AND THEY'RE LEFT TO CARRY THE CAN. THE DANGER HERE IS THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY SELLING PATHWAYS TO RESIDENCY. WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY SELLING EXPORT EDUCATION. AND WE'VE GOT PRIVATE TRAINING ESTABLISHMENTS, MANY OF WHOM ARE TURNING A BLIND EYE TO SOME OF THESE FRAUDULENT AGENTS, AND THAT'S WHY NZQA ARE TRYING TO CRACK DOWN, IN A WAY TO RESCUE THE REPUTATION OF OUR GOOD EXPORT EDUCATION SECTOR ` THE POLYTECHS AND THE UNIVERSITIES AND THE HIGHER SCHOOLED, POSTGRAD STUDENTS WHO ARE COMING, THE ONES WE WANT. BECAUSE THIS IS TURNING INTO A POLITICAL RISK FOR THE GOVERNMENT HERE THAT THEIR NATURAL SUPPORTERS IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY ARE SAYING, 'WE'RE WELCOMING IN THE WRONG MIX OF MIGRANTS.' WE'VE GOT LOTS OF KIDS COMING HERE, WORKING ON MINIMUM WAGE OR WORSE, BECAUSE THERE ARE REAL PROBLEMS WITH MIGRANT ABUSE, AND WE'RE NOT BRINGING IN THE HIGHLY SKILLED CONSTRUCTION WORKERS, SOFTWARE ENGINEERS AND THE LIKES WE ACTUALLY NEED TO GROW THE ECONOMY. COS THAT HIJACKS THE ARGUMENT THAT ACTUALLY WHEN WE BRING IN IMMIGRANTS, THEN THE PAY RATES OF EVERYBODY RISES. BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE IF PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING EXPLOITED FOR $4 AN HOUR OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THAT'S NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING. OR EVEN JUST PUT ON THE MINIMUM WAGE. NOW, ON THAT, JANE, WINSTON PETERS ` I'M SURE YOU MISSED HIM WHILE YOU WERE LIVING IN CANADA. HAS ANYTHING CHANGED? DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WERE CRYOGENICALLY FROZEN AND BROUGHT BACK? I'VE JUST WOKEN UP. (LAUGHS) STEVEN JOYCE THERE AT THE END OF THE INTERVIEW, NOT RULING OUT REDUCING IMMIGRATION NUMBERS IF IT'S DEMANDED OF HIM BY WINSTON PETERS IN SOME SORT OF POST-ELECTION DEAL, WHICH IT PROBABLY WOULD BE. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT? DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT WOULD ACT ON SOMETHING LIKE THAT IF IT MEANT GETTING WINSTON PETERS ACROSS THE LINE? NO, I REALLY DO THINK THAT A YEAR OUT FROM IT WITH NO IDEA, REALLY, OF WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, WINSTON COULD WELL BE IN THAT POSITION. HE'S BEEN IN THAT POSITION BEFORE. AND HE'S KEPT HIS POWDER VERY VERY DRY ALL THE WAY THROUGH. I MEAN, SOMETIMES NOT EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE SAME PARTY AS HIM KNEW WHICH WAY THEY WERE GOING TO GO. SO I DON'T THINK YOU'LL EVER BE ABLE TO PIN HIM DOWN. I THINK IT'S A WASTE OF TIME TRYING TO PIN HIM DOWN ANY MORE ON IT NOW. OK, THAT'S GOOD ADVICE. THAT'S GOOD ADVICE. THE OTHER THING IS IT WON'T BE REALLY WINSTON'S PRESSURE ON IMMIGRATION. IT'LL BE PUBLIC PRESSURE ON IMMIGRATION. IT'LL BE THE HOUSING PRESSURE ON IMMIGRATION THAT IS MORE THAN THE STUDENT ISSUE, WHICH IS IMPORTANT AND IS DIFFICULT, BUT THE HOUSING PRESSURE IN AUCKLAND AND IMMIGRANTS AND FOREIGN BUYERS. THAT PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT, THEY'LL RESPOND TO AHEAD OF WHAT WINSTON PUTS ON THEM. YEAH. YEAH, COS THAT'S WHAT I THINK WE'LL SEE IN THE NEXT YEAR OR SO ` THE GOVERNMENT RESPONDING ON A COMBINATION OF FOREIGN BUYING, SO THE GOVERNMENT WILL REALLY FLAG THE IDEA OF A FOREIGN BUYERS TAX OR A STAMP DUTY, PLUS SOME TWEAKING OF THOSE MIGRATION SETTINGS. THERE ARE REAL CONCERNS NOW ABOUT THE MIX. AND ALSO` SO YOU THINK WE'LL SEE THE GOVERNMENT DO SOMETHING VOLUNTARILY ON IMMIGRATION? YOU THINK THAT? YOU THINK THAT TOO, JANE? I THINK ALL COUNTRIES ARE DOING THAT. ALL OF THEM. AND THEY ALSO ADDING INTO THIS MIX THE REFUGEE QUOTA IN TERMS OF MIGRANTS. SO, YES, I THINK ALL GOVERNMENTS. BECAUSE, LOOK, WE'RE ALL IN THE WEST, WE'VE GOT AGING POPULATIONS. WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO BRING YOUNGER PEOPLE IN TO DO JOBS THAT ARE GOING TO CATER FOR THAT, AND I THINK ANY GOVERNMENT'S GOT TO BE QUITE WISE ABOUT HOW THEY ARE FLEXIBLE ON IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND WELCOME BACK. AND WE WILL BE BACK IN JUST A MOMENT WITH WHAT WILL BE MAKING NEWS NEXT WEEK. WELCOME BACK. WE'RE BACK WITH OUR PANEL. NOW ANOTHER ISSUE TO DO WITH IMMIGRATION THIS WEEK ` AND I'LL START WITH YOU, TIM ` WAS JUDITH COLLINS BLAMING A RISE IN CRIME ON A RISE IN POPULATION, WHICH OBVIOUSLY COMES BACK TO IMMIGRATION AND NOT ENOUGH POLICE ON THE STREETS. LAW AND ORDER ` SUCH A BIG ISSUE FOR ANY GOVERNMENT, ESPECIALLY ONE THAT'S THIRD TERM. IT LOOKED TO ME LIKE THE NATIONAL PARTY'S MOVING PRETTY QUICKLY TO KIND OF SHORE UP WHAT'S HAPPENING BEHIND THAT RISING BURGLARIES. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE CLASSIC 'PUSH A BUTTON, PLEASE' FOR DIVERSION. AND IT'S AN EASY POLICY, ESPECIALLY THE ONE ABOUT DIRECTING POLICE TO ATTEND BURGLARIES. NOW, THAT'S A HARD THING TO ACHIEVE. THE POLICE WILL NOT DO OTHER WORK. CHILD-ABUSE CASES, FOR EXAMPLE, LAST TIME PILED UP, AS GREG O'CONNOR WAS SAYING THIS WEEK. SO SHE CAN SIT THERE AND SAY THAT. I WILL BELIEVE IT WHEN I SEE IT, AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD BURGLARIES WILL BELIEVE IT WHEN THEY SEE IT. THEY MIGHT GET A FINGERPRINT EXPERT. THEY MIGHT GET A CIVILIAN OR THEY MIGHT GET A CONSTABLE A WHILE LATER. I DON'T BELIEVE IT, AND I THINK IT'S A DIVERSION. AND IT PLAYS INTO THIS PROBLEM GOVERNMENT HAS AROUND POPULATION GROWTH AND MIGRATION THAT'S HITTING SO MANY DIFFERENT FRONTS ` HOUSING, TRANSPORT, EDUCATION, HEALTH. YOU KNOW, ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE REALLY PULLING TOGETHER INTO A TOXIC BREW HERE WHERE YOU'VE GOT VERY STRONG POPULATION AND MIGRATION GROWTH HELPING TO PUSH UP HOUSE PRICES, NOW HITTING CRIME STATS. BUT YOU'RE NOT, UM, AGREEING WITH IMMIGRATION BEING BEHIND THE RISE IN CRIME, BECAUSE IMMIGRATIONS ARE SUCH` SO LOW IN TERMS OF PERCENTAGES. IT'S THE POPULATION GROWTH. IT'S THE POPULATION GROWTH, AND SO THEREFORE THE PRESSURE COMES ON THE SOCIAL SIDE, AND SO THEREFORE WHAT WE HAVE ` PEOPLE WHO ARE BURGLING HOUSES BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT THE MONEY AND` THIS PRESSURE ON POPULATION ` WE'VE GOT THE FASTEST GROWTH IN NZ'S POPULATION SINCE 1974 IN THE LAST YEAR. YOU'VE GOT A HUNDRED CARS A DAY BEING ADDED TO THE ROADS. WELL, JANE, WE'LL BRING YOU IN HERE, BECAUSE HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN AWAY FOR? UH, 13. YEAH, SO, I MEAN, HAS NZ CHANGED? HAS AUCKLAND CHANGED? IS IT VISIBLE? IT OBVIOUSLY IS. WELL, IT'S` WHAT IS ACTUALLY VERY NOTICEABLE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE GAP ` THE SOCIAL GAP BETWEEN THE PEOPLE AT THE VERY TOP, NOT AS HIGH A PERCENTAGE AS YOU SEE IN WEALTHIER COUNTRIES ` AND THEN YOU SEE THIS DIET OF STORIES OF PEOPLE LIVING IN CARS, OF PEOPLE NOT BEING ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO SURVIVE ON EVEN TWO OR THREE JOBS, WITH KIDS GOING TO SCHOOL WITHOUT SHOES, OF ELECTRICITY BEING CUT OFF WHEN PEOPLE ARE` WOMEN WHO ARE GIVING BIRTH IN THE DARK AND THE MIDWIFE HAS TO ACTUALLY USE A FLASHLIGHT ON HER PHONE. THAT'S NOT THE NZ THAT WE TRY AND PRESENT TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD. AND THAT'S VISIBLY CHANGED DURING THAT TIME. BUT YOU KNOW THE THING`? YEAH, IT IS, AND I SUPPOSE BECAUSE I SEE IT WITH DIFFERENT EYES BECAUSE HAVING BEEN AWAY AND TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN NZ, BUT IT'S SUCH FERTILE GROUND FOR DOG-WHISTLE POLITICS, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GETTING. WE'RE SEEING IT BIG TIME IN THE STATES. I MEAN, HAVING BEEN ON A SERIOUS DIET OF DONALD TRUMP, IT'S THAT KIND OF THING. IT'S EASY TO MAKE PEOPLE TERRIFIED, AND THIS IS WHERE THE GOVERNMENT HAS MISSED OUT IN THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE BURGLED ARE REALLY TRAUMATISED BY THAT. I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN BURGLED THREE TIMES, AND THE FIRST` THE SECOND TIME THEY RECKONED, THE INSURANCE COMPANY, COS THEY WERE THE ONES THAT WERE MOST CONCERNED, UM, THEY RECKONED IT WAS THE SAME PEOPLE THAT CAME THE FIRST TIME. YEAH. THEY KNOW THAT YOU'RE INSURED. YOU'RE REPLACING EVERYTHING. IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY TRAUMA, AND I THINK THAT IT'S A LITTLE DISINGENUOUS TO NOW A YEAR OUT FROM THE ELECTION TO BE GOING, 'EVERY BURGLARY IS GOING TO BE ATTENDED.' YEAH, YEAH. THE OTHER THING ON THE BURGLARY STUFF, WE NOW SEE REGULAR VIDEO FOOTAGE BECAUSE OF THESE CAMERAS IN DAIRIES OF THESE ATTACKS. AND THEY'RE AWFUL. AND THIS IS A REAL ISSUE. AND INTERESTINGLY, IN THE INDIAN COMMUNITY IN AUCKLAND, THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S REALLY GETTING PEOPLE` NOW, FOR A BELTWAY KIND OF ISSUE AND FOR ANYONE LOOKING FOR A JOB, THERE IS ONE GOING OR A COUPLE GOING IN THE LABOUR PARTY, ACTUALLY ` CHIEF OF STAFF AND CHIEF PRESS SECRETARY. TIM, UM, GIVE US YOUR PITCH. WELL, I DON'T WANT IT. COS YOU'RE LOOKING FOR WORK. (LAUGHS) JUST ASK HIM IF HE'S ACTUALLY GOT HIS APPLICATION IN. YOU KNOW, YOU COULD BE CHIEF OF STAFF, JANE COULD BE CHIEF PRESS SEC, AND, BERNARD, WE'LL FIND A ROLE FOR YOU IN THERE. WELL, I'M SURE WE` YOU COULD BE THE LABOUR LEADER. WE'D GIVE THEM A TURBOCHARGE. LOOK, I THINK A YEAR OUT, UH, IN THE LABOUR PARTY IN THE POSITION IT IS IN IN YOUR POLLS AND WITH THE GREENS IN THE POSITION THAT THEY'RE IN, IT'S NOT A BAD TIME. AND IF YOU'VE GOT SOME QUALITY AND YOU'RE A PROGRESSIVE SORT OF TILT, UH, I'D GET INTO IT. AND I THINK THEY'VE GOT SOME MESSAGES NOW THAT WE'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT THEY CAN ABSOLUTELY PLAY OFF. YEAH. UH, MAYBE TO THE DETRIMENT OF PETERS IF THEY GET IT RIGHT. YEAH, YEAH. BUT THE MOMENTUM IS SHIFTING, PARTICULARLY IN AUCKLAND, WHERE THE POLL ` THE SSI POLL ` THAT CAME OUT A WEEK OR TWO AGO SHOWS THAT NATIONAL SUPPORT IS DRIFTING OFF IN AUCKLAND AROUND THESE ISSUES LIKE HOUSING AND MIGRATION, AND THERE IS A CHANCE HERE THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE COULD BE A BIG SHIFT. FOR ALL OF US, IT WOULD BE GOOD IF THEY GET SOMEBODY GOOD AND THEY HAVE A REAL FIGHT,... YEAH. ...BECAUSE FOR DEMOCRACY REQUIRES OR WORKS BEST WHEN YOU'VE ACTUALLY GOT SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY CONNECTING. AND IF THERE'S ONE PARTY THAT'S JUST STREETS AHEAD AND ANOTHER STRUGGLING TO SORT OF GET THEIR VIEWS OUT TO THE PUBLIC SO YOU KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON` WELL, THERE YOU GO, JANE. A STAMPED, SELF-ADDRESSED ENVELOPE TO THE LABOUR PARTY AT PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS. ALL RIGHT. (LAUGHS) AND WHAT'S YOUR COMMISSION? LAUGHS: YEAH. THAT'S RIGHT. OH YEAH, I'LL CHARGE A COMMISSION AS WELL. NOW TIME FOR A LOOK AT NEXT WEEK'S NEWS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO THE PANEL, ACTUALLY. PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY LEAVES FOR LAOS ON TUESDAY FOR THE EAST ASIA SUMMIT. HE WILL THEN GO ON TO THE FEDERATED STATES OF MICRONESIA FOR THE PACIFIC ISLANDS FORUM. NZ FIRST LEADER WINSTON PETERS DELIVERS HIS KEYNOTE SPEECH AT THE PARTY'S ANNUAL CONFERENCE IN DUNEDIN THIS AFTERNOON. AND THE CROSS-PARTY HOMELESSNESS INQUIRY CONTINUES WITH THE LAST ORAL HEARINGS TAKING PLACE IN WELLINGTON TOMORROW. NOW, LISA WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK, BUT THAT'S ALL FROM ME. BUT I WANT TO THANK MY OLD EDITOR AND OLD FRIEND AND OLD MENTOR TIM MURPHY FOR A LITTLE BIT OF ADVICE IN MY EAR ABOUT HOW TO PRONOUNCE THINGS TODAY. VERY HELPFUL. MY PLEASURE. (LAUGHS) AND JANE YOUNG FOR COMING BACK, AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT MORE OF YOU BACK HERE AT TV3. IT'S LIKE HAVING A MEMBER OF THE FAMILY HERE. AND, BERNARD, SEE YOU AT WORK ON MONDAY. THAT'S ALL FROM ME FOR NOW. LONGEST FAREWELL ON 'THE NATION' EVER. GOODBYE FOR NOW. I'LL BE BACK SOMETIME LATER THIS YEAR. CAPTIONS BY ABLE. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016