GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. TODAY ` CAN WE AFFORD TO KEEP RETIRING AT 65? JOHN KEY HAS SAID HE'LL NEVER INCREASE THE 'SUPER' AGE, BUT THE RETIREMENT COMMISSIONER JOINS US THIS MORNING, AND SHE SAYS WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES. THEN ` AS MORE AND MORE MENTAL-HEALTH BEDS ARE SHUT DOWN, IS THE SYSTEM IN CHAOS? ACROSS THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF MENTAL HEALTH, UH, I'D SAY IT IS IN CRISIS. THIS ISN'T ABOUT POLITICS. I COULDN'T CARE LESS WHICH PARTY SOLVES THIS PROBLEM. UM, IT JUST NEEDS TO BE FIXED. WE REPORT ON WHAT'S WRONG AND HOW TO FIX IT. AND SCIENTOLOGY ` IS IT A REAL RELIGION OR A RORT? THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT IT IS A MONEY-MAKING OPERATION. I THINK THE TAX-FREE STATUS SHOULD SERIOUSLY BE SCRUTINISED IN COUNTRIES LIKE NZ AND AUSTRALIA. PLUS, WE WRAP UP THIS WEEK WITH OUR PANEL, JON JOHANSSON, JENNA RAEBURN AND SIMON WILSON AND CATCH UP ON SOME LAUGHS WITH JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US TODAY. WE LOVE HEARING FROM YOU, SO DO GET IN TOUCH. OUR DETAILS ARE ON SCREEN. AND IF YOU FOLLOW ON TWITTER, FOLLOW ALONG WITH OUR TWITTER PANEL, BUSINESS CONSULTANT TIM MCCREADY AND AUTHOR MAX RASHBROOKE. NOW, THEY'RE ON NATION #TV3` #NATIONTV3 RATHER. WELL, THIS IS A POLITICAL HOT POTATO THAT NO PARTY WANTS TO HANDLE ` SUPERANNUATION. BUT NOW THE RETIREMENT COMMISSIONER, DIANE MAXWELL, IS WADING IN. HER REPORT ON NZ'S RETIREMENT POLICY IS DUE SHORTLY, AND SHE JOINS ME NOW IN THE STUDIO. GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING. WHAT ARE YOUR KEY RECOMMENDATIONS GOING TO BE? SO SUPER AS IT STANDS IS A FANTASTIC THING. WE'RE VERY PROUD OF IT, BUT IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE IN THE LONG TERM UNLESS WE MAKE SOME CHANGES. SO THE CHANGES THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, YOU'VE EITHER GOT TO SAY HOW DO YOU WORK ON THE ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA OR THE ABSOLUTE AMOUNT THAT PEOPLE GET? SO THE ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA WOULD TIME SPENT IN COUNTRY, AGE THAT YOU BECOME ELIGIBLE FOR SUPER, AND THE ABSOLUTE AMOUNT IS ABOUT THE INDEXATION THAT OCCURS EVERY YEAR AND WHAT IT'S INDEXED TO. SO WE'RE LOOKING AT LOOKING AT RAISING THE AGE OF ELIGIBILITY OVER TIME AND TALK MORE ABOUT THAT. SO TO WHAT AGE? FROM 65 TO WHAT, DO YOU THINK IS THE BEST? SO I WANT TO BE REALLY CLEAR THAT THIS IS A SLOW CHANGE. WE'RE LOOKING AT THREE SCENARIOS. ONE OF THEM WOULD IMPACT PEOPLE WHO ARE 55 TODAY. YOU'D RAISE IT THREE MONTHS A YEAR OVER A PERIOD OF 10 YEARS, SO IT'S A SLOWER CHANGE THAN THE LAST TIME IT WENT UP. TO...? TO 67. TO 67. TO 67. OK. YOU MENTIONED FOREIGNERS COMING INTO THE COUNTRY, THEIR ELIGIBILITY. AT THE MOMENT YOU GET SUPER ` FULL SUPER ` IF YOU'VE BEEN HERE FOR 10 YEARS. WHAT WOULD YOU DO ABOUT THAT? YOU GET NZ SUPER AFTER 10 YEARS, AND THE OECD AVERAGE IS 26 YEARS, SO WE ARE AN OUTLIER. WE WOULD LOOK AT EXTENDING THAT OUT, AND WE'RE COSTING OUT IF WE EXTENDED IT TO 25 YEARS ` BEING IN NZ FOR 25 YEARS BEFORE YOU GET NZ SUPER. IF YOU LOOK AT THE MIGRATION FIGURES FOR THE ONES THAT HAVE JUST COME OUT, IN FACT, NET MIGRATION'S 70,000 INTO NZ. THAT'S A NET FIGURE. SO THE ACTUAL FIGURE'S 125,000, AND ACTUALLY A QUARTER OF THEM ARE NZERS COMING BACK, BUT WE DO HAVE PEOPLE COMING TO NZ, AND WE DO HAVE PARENTS COMING TO NZ, PEOPLE WHO ARE RESIDENT IN NZ, AND WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT IN THE LONGER TERM, AS IS A COST BLOWOUT, HOW WE MANAGE THAT. OK, I JUST WANT TO UNPACK SOME OF THIS, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT IN THERE. SO LET'S LOOK AT THE AGE FIRST. YOU SAY YOU'LL BRING IT IN INCREMENTALLY. WELL, TWO-THIRDS OF THE PEOPLE YOU SURVEYED MOST RECENTLY DON'T WANT A BAR OF RAISING THE AGE. SO WHY WOULD ANY POLITICAL PARTY TAKE ON A POLICY... THEY WON'T. ...THAT IS POTENTIALLY SUICIDAL? LOOK, THE PROBLEM IS ` I DO WANT TO PUT THESE NUMBERS OUT THERE VERY QUICKLY ` YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER OF 65-PLUS WILL DOUBLE IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS. THE COST OF SUPER WILL TRIPLE IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS. AS IMPORTANTLY, OUR DEPENDENCY RATIOS, WHICH IS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE OF WORKING AGE TO RETIREES WILL GO FROM 4.4 TO 2.8` 2.4, SORRY. 2.4 PEOPLE OF WORKING AGE TO EVERY ONE RETIREE. YEAH. SO WE CAN'T PRETEND THAT THIS ISN'T HAPPENING. NOW, I HAVE DAYS WHERE I THINK, ACTUALLY, IT'S GOING TO BE FINE; I BELIEVE IN GROWTH AND DRIVING PRODUCTIVITY. BUT THEN WE LOOK AT HOW AN AGEING POPULATION IS ACTUALLY GOING TO IMPACT PRODUCTIVITY. OUR COSTS ARE GROWING FASTER THAN OUR GDP EVER COULD, SO PART OF THIS IS WHERE I'M GETTING TO IS PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND ALL THAT BEFORE THEY CAN DECIDE WHAT THEY THINK, OTHERWISE IT'S A VERY EMOTIONAL REACTION. BUT IT COMES BACK TO THE THING YOU SAY ` THE NUMBER OF 65-YEAR-OLDS IS GOING TO DOUBLE. THAT'S DOUBLE THE VOTING. AND VOTERS, I KNOW. I KNOW. YOU'RE DOUBLING THE VOTER POPULATION. WE NEED A BIPARTISAN` HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET PARTIES TO DO THIS? WE NEED` I'VE VERY PRAGMATIC ABOUT THIS. WE NEED A CROSS-GOVERNMENT AGREEMENT. THAT WOULD BE FANTASTIC. BY THE TIME IT COMES IN AS A CHANGE, IT WILL BE A NO-BRAINER. I NOTICE IN YOUR CLIP YOU HAD RETIREES AS OLD PEOPLE ON ZIMMER FRAMES. ACTUALLY, 65- TO 70-YEAR-OLDS ARE QUITE A SPRIGHTLY, FIT BUNCH, YOU KNOW? THEY'RE NOT SPENDING A WHOLE LOT OF TIME ON ZIMMER FRAMES, AND YET WE PULL OUT PICTURES OF REALLY OLD PEOPLE, BUT WHAT WE FIND IS THAT PEOPLE IN THEIR 60S AND THEIR LATE 60S NOW ARE REALLY QUITE AN ACTIVE, HEALTHY BUNCH. SO WE'RE LIVING FOR LONGER, BUT ALSO WE'RE HEALTHIER FOR LONGER; WE'RE WORKING FOR MUCH LONGER. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT A BIT MORE A BIT LATER, BUT WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT IS THAT OUR CURRENT PRIME MINISTER HAS VOWED THAT HE WILL RESIGN BEFORE HE INCREASES THE ENTITLEMENT AGE FOR SUPER. CAN YOU CHANGE HIS MIND? UH, LOOK, IT COMES DOWN TO WHAT THE VOTER THINKS. I'M HOPING TO CHANGE THE VOTER'S MIND. AND GET THEM TO SEND HIM THE MESSAGE? IF I CAN CHANGE THE VOTER'S MIND, I CAN CHANGE HIS MIND, BECAUSE THAT'S THE POINT. YOU SAID WE'RE DOING A REPORT; I'M NOT DOING A REPORT. I HAVE SAID TO THE GOVERNMENT THEY'RE NOT GETTING A REPORT, AND I KNOW YOU HAVE MY MINISTER ON AFTER ME. YEAH. WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO GET, ACTUALLY, ARE SEVEN VIDEOS WITHIN WHICH ALL OUR WORK WILL BE EMBEDDED AS DIGITAL CONTENT. THE PROBLEM WITH DOING A REPORT, AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED LAST TIME, IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE LIKE ME SIT IN A ROOM AND PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABOUT THE STUFF TALK ABOUT THE STUFF WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABOUT THE STUFF, AND THEN WE PEER-REVIEW EACH OTHER'S STUFF, AND THEN WE GO HOME. SO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO WATCH THESE VIDEOS AND KNOW WHERE YOU'RE AT? IT'S A CIRCULAR INTERNAL CONVERSATION. THIS HAS TO GO OUT TO NZ. THIS HAS TO BE UNDERSTAND BY NZ, BY VOTERS, BY TAXPAYERS, AND TO DO THAT WE'RE GOT TO TAKE THE JARGON OUT OF IT. WE'VE GOT TO MAKE IT SENSIBLE. WE'VE GOT TO MAKE IT INTERESTING AND COMPELLING, AND WE'VE GOT TO PUT IT OUT THERE IN WAYS THAT MAKE SENSE. SO THERE'LL BE QUICK VIDEOS, INTERESTING, QUITE FUNNY, I'M HOPING, THAT PEOPLE CAN WATCH, AND THEN WITHIN THAT WILL BE EMBEDDED THE RESEARCH, THE RECOMMENDATIONS WHICH ARE GOING TO BE IN THE FREEZER AND A FEW OTHERS THINGS. SO IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT TYPE OF WORK, AND THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE A REPORT. I WANT TO THEN TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE FAIRNESS ISSUES, BECAUSE YOU'VE TOUCHED ON THAT. SO BETWEEN GENERATIONS AND BETWEEN WORKERS, SO HOW IS RAISING THE AGE OF SUPER, EVEN IF IT'S INCREMENTAL, FAIR TO, SAY, MAORI, WHO HAVE A LOWER LIFE EXPECTANCY. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. OR PEOPLE WHO ARE PHYSICALLY CLAPPED OUT BECAUSE THEY'VE HAD SUCH JOBS IN THEIR LIFE? SO THIS IS REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE ACTUALLY IF YOU TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT THIS, THEN THEIR FEELINGS CHANGE ABOUT RAISING THE AGE` TOWARDS RAISING THE AGE. SO WHAT I'VE LEARNT THIS YEAR WITH ALL THE WORK THAT WE'VE DONE, AND I'VE BEEN TRAVELLING AROUND NZ WITH MY LISTENING EARS ON, IS THAT WHAT WE'VE` YOU KNOW, WE TALK 65 TO 67. THAT'S A REALLY OLD CONVERSATION. WE'VE GOT TO STOP TALKING 65 TO 67. WE NEED TO TALK 50 TO 70. THAT'S WHERE THE CONVERSATION NEEDS TO BE, BECAUSE WE ENGAGE WITH PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY IN THEIR EARLY 50S, CANNOT GO TOO MUCH FURTHER IN TERMS OF WORK. ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE EXEMPTIONS? SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS STEP BACK. AND SO WE'VE GOT TWO GROUPS HERE ` ONE WHO, FRANKLY, COULD WORK TO 70 WITHOUT A PROBLEM, BUT FOR OTHERS, 65 ISN'T THE ISSUE. IF THEY'VE GOT AN ISSUE AT 65, THEY WILL HAVE HAD AN ISSUE AT 55. SO IF WE RAISE THE AGE TODAY ` AND I'M NOT SAYING WE'RE GOING TO ` WE WOULD SAVE 1.6 BILLION, SO YOU TAKE THAT 1.6 BILLION, AND YOU` YOU LOOK AT WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE INVESTED FOR PEOPLE IN THEIR EARLY 50S. SO IS IT A CAREER CHANGE? IS IT RETRAINING? IS IT`? WHAT DO THEY NEED? DO THEY NEED A HEARING AID? WHAT DO PEOPLE NEED THROUGHOUT THEIR 50S TO TAKE THEM INTO THEIR 60S AND THEIR 70S? SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STRETCHING THEIR WORK LIFE NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO NOW? I THINK FOR SOME OF THEM, YES, AND FOR SOME PEOPLE, NO. WILL THERE BE EXCEPTIONS? AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT IS CHANGING. WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE MUCH HEALTHIER MUCH LONGER. THE OTHER THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT JOBS ARE CHANGING. MANY OF THOSE MANUAL JOBS THAT BROKE PEOPLE AREN'T` ARE DYING OUT. BUT WE NEED TO SAY REALLY CLEARLY, TAKE THE 1.6 BILLION, LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO SIMPLY CANNOT WORK AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE LOOKED AFTER. LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO COULD WORK BUT JUST NEED RETRAINING AND RETRAIN THEM, AND THEN THE PEOPLE, FRANKLY, WHO ARE 65 GOING STRONG, FIT AS A FIDDLE AND WORKING FULL-TIME, THEY DON'T NEED SUPER. THE THING IS, THOUGH, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE PEOPLE IN THE WORKFORCE, SO WHAT KIND OF JOBS ARE THEY GOING TO BE COMPETING FOR, AND WHO ARE THEY GOING TO BE COMPETING AGAINST? YEAH. I MEAN, THERE'S A SILLY THEORY, WHICH WE SHOULD HAVE ALL MOVED ON FROM, THAT A 65-YEAR-OLD WORKING IS TAKING A JOB AWAY FROM AN 18-YEAR-OLD. THERE'S NOT. THERE'S LOTS OF EVIDENCE THAT THAT SIMPLY ISN'T THE CASE. WE WANT TO GROW A PRODUCTIVE ECONOMY. SO YOU'RE SAYING NOBODY'S GOING TO BE SQUEEZED OUT BY MAKING A GROWING PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION`? I DON'T BELIEVE SO, BUT WHAT I DO BELIEVE IS THAT THE WORKFORCE ` AND WE KNOW THIS FROM THE MONTH WE DID 'AGEING WORKFORCE' ` THE WORKFORCE IS NOT READY TO EMPLOY OLDER NZERS. THERE IS HUGE DISCRIMINATION AND BIAS AGAINST OLDER NZERS, SO THIS IS CRITICAL, COS IF WE SAY WE WANT PEOPLE TO WORK FOR LONGER, WE HAVE TO HAVE THE WORKPLACE READY TO ACCOMMODATE THEM ` NOT JUST ACCOMMODATE THEM BUT GET THE BEST OUT OF THEM. THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE IN THEIR 60S WHO ARE VERY COMPETENT AND CAPABLE AND ABLE-BODIED WHO CANNOT GET A JOB BECAUSE OF OUR ATTITUDES TOWARDS AGING, AND WE NEED TO ADDRESS THAT. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO MOVE ON TO KIWISAVER. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF THE FIGURES THERE ` 131% JUMP IN MONEY TAKEN OUT FOR FIRST HOMES IN THE PAST YEAR; HARDSHIP WITHDRAWALS UP 52%; A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SIGNED UP BUT NOT PAYING IN GREW TO 1.1 MILLION ` THAT'S HEADING TOWARDS THE HALFWAY MARK ` AND GROWTH IN MEMBERSHIP HALVED SINCE THE GOVERNMENT NIXED ITS START-UP CONTRIBUTION. SO IF THIS IS ABOUT NUMBERS, GIVE US YOUR NUMBER FOR KIWISAVER. HOW'S IT DOING, 1 TO 10, 10 BEING THE BEST? I'D PUT IT AT AN 8, ACTUALLY. LOOK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T PUTTING ENOUGH MONEY IN. AS YOU SAID, HALF OF KIWISAVER MEMBERS DIDN'T GET THE FULL-MEMBER TAX CREDIT, AND THEN HALF OF THAT GROUP, ABOUT 580,000, DIDN'T PUT ANYTHING IN AT ALL, SO THOSE ARE BIG NUMBERS FOR NOT CONTRIBUTING. HOWEVER, WHAT I SEE WHEN I TRAVEL UP AND DOWN THE COUNTRY, AND THIS IS WHERE YOU'VE GOT TO STEP AWAY FROM THE SPREADSHEETS, GET OUT OF WELLINGTON AND TALK TO PEOPLE, I SEE PEOPLE WITH SAVINGS THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE OTHERWISE HAD. < OK, SO` YOU KNOW, THEY'RE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER HAD SAVINGS IN THE FAMILY. THEY HAVE A HISTORY OF NEVER HAVING HAD SAVINGS, AND THEY HAVE SAVINGS. BUT THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT, SO THE GOVERNMENT SAID` THERE'S HUGE ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. THE GOVERNMENT SAID WHEN IT WAS FISCALLY PRUDENT, IT WOULD AUTO-ENROL PEOPLE INTO KIWISAVER. IS THE TIME RIGHT NOW? SHOULD WE BE GOING FOR IT? OH, LOOK, I DON'T KNOW WHAT` I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT WOULD ACHIEVE, COS PEOPLE COULD STILL OPT OUT, AND ABOUT 75% OF THE WORKFORCE` SORRY, THE PEOPLE ELIGIBLE IN THAT WORKFORCE ARE IN. SO YOU'RE ON THE FENCE ON THAT ONE? WHAT I SAID THE OTHER DAY I STAND BY, WHICH IS WHAT I'D LOVE TO SEE SUPPORT FOR IS THAT GROUP WHO ARE JOINING THE WORKFORCE FOR THE FIRST TIME. SO THEIR FIRST JOB IS THEIR FIRST TIME THEY'VE GOT AN INCOME, AND BASICALLY IT'S A CONVERSATION WITH THEM THAT SAYS, 'YOU KNOW WHAT? 'THIS IS WHAT AN INCOME LOOKS LIKE. YOU'RE ON A SALARY. 'THIS IS YOUR FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO SAVE AND TO START A SAVINGS HABIT.' SO THAT'S WHERE I WOULD SAY GIVE THEM THE $1000 KICK-START AS A FIRST-JOBBER IF THEY DIDN'T GET IT ALREADY. MAKE SURE THEY'RE IN KIWISAVER, BUT GIVE THEM THAT MOMENT, THAT FLUSH MOMENT, WHERE THEY GO, '$1000. THIS IS A SAVINGS VEHICLE. I'M WORKING NOW, THE BEGINNING OF MY WORKING CAREER. 'I'M GOING TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.' THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS I WANT TO RUN THROUGH BEFORE WE GET OUT OF TIME. SO THE SUPER FUND, THE GOVERNMENT STOPPED PAYING INTO THAT IN 2009. AGAIN, IT SAID WHEN THE BOOKS WERE IN THE BLACK, THEY WOULD START PAYING AGAIN. WE ARE ` 1.8-BILLION SURPLUS. IS IT TIME TO START REPAYMENTS INTO THAT? I WOULD SAY YES, IT IS. YES, QUITE DEFINITELY. RIGHT NOW SPEND THE SURPLUS ON THAT? DEPENDS. YOU KNOW, PREVIOUSLY, I THINK IT WAS 1% TO 2% GDP THAT WENT IN BEFORE IT STOPPED, SO QUESTION IS ` IS THAT THE RIGHT AMOUNT? BUT, YOU KNOW, THE PRE-FUNDING, WHICH IS WHAT'S GOING TO KICK IN IN 20 YEARS' TIME TO START TRYING TO ALLEVIATE SOME OF THE PRESSURE POINT, IS CRITICAL. THERE'S NO WAY AROUND IT. SO SUPER FUND ALSO GETS TAXED ON ITS EARNINGS. SHOULD`? I MEAN, THAT WAS, WHAT, $250 MILLION LAST YEAR. I KNOW. THEY WERE ONE OF OUR BIGGEST TAXPAYERS ONE YEAR. SO SHOULD THOSE RETURNS BE TAXED ON SUPER? SO LAST TIME I DID THIS REPORT, I SAID, 'IF YOU CAN'T START CONTRIBUTING TO THE FUND, 'FOR GOODNESS SAKE, STOP TAXING THE THING,' AS A MIDPOINT. SEE, TO ME, IF YOU CONTRIBUTE, THEN TAX; IF YOU DON'T CONTRIBUTE, DON'T TAX. WE'VE GOT TO GO, BUT I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU QUICKLY ` IS THE GOVERNMENT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU? (CHUCKLES) ARE NZERS GOING TO LISTEN TO ME IS A BIGGER QUESTION, BECAUSE IF NZERS LISTEN TO ME, THE GOVERNMENT WILL LISTEN TO ME. OK. THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. MUCH APPRECIATED. WELL, AFTER THE BREAK, I'LL PUT THE RETIREMENT COMMISSIONER'S VIEWS TO THE COMMERCE MINISTER, PAUL GOLDSMITH. THEN LATER ` IS THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM IN CRISIS? WITH BEDS CLOSING AND RESOURCES SPREAD EVER THINNER, WE TALK TO THOSE IN THE SECTOR. WELCOME BACK. WELL, BEFORE THE BREAK WE HEARD FROM THE RETIREMENT COMMISSIONER, DIANE MAXWELL, ABOUT CHANGES SHE SAYS WE NEED TO MAKE TO SUPERANNUATION. BUT EVEN SHE ADMITS THE CHANGES ARE A VOTE LOSER, SO WILL THE GOVERNMENT LISTEN? WELL, JOINING ME NOW IN THE STUDIO IS THE COMMERCE MINISTER, PAUL GOLDSMITH. GOOD MORNING TO YOU. GOOD MORNING. HOW ARE YA? YOU WOULD HAVE HEARD THE COMMISSIONER SAY THERE THAT SHE THINKS RETIREMENT AGE SHOULD GO UP TO 67, CHANGE IT OVER 10 TO 15 YEARS. SOUND LIKE A GOOD IDEA? ARE YOU GOING TO DO IT? NO. I MEAN, I THINK... LOOK, I AGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT THE RETIREMENT COMMISSIONER SAYS AROUND` HER FOCUS IS AROUND TRYING TO ENCOURAGE NZERS TO SAVE FOR THEIR RETIREMENT AND THINK ABOUT THEIR RETIREMENT OVER THE LONG TERM. I DON'T AGREE WITH HER ASSESSMENT THAT THE CURRENT REGIME IS UNSUSTAINABLE. I DON'T THINK THE FACTS BACK THAT UP. IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE TREASURY SAYS, WE BASICALLY SPEND ABOUT 5% OF GDP AT THE MOMENT LOOKING AFTER OUR OLDER CITIZENS, AND THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THEY SHOULD HAVE A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING AND COMFORT WHEN THEY'RE OLD. THE PROJECTIONS ARE THAT BY 2045, SO 30 YEARS FROM NOW, THAT WILL HAVE INCREASED TO 7% OF GDP. NOW, THE WORLD'S NOT GOING TO COME TO AN END. WE CAN AFFORD THAT AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE DO. WELL, SHE SAYS YOU CAN'T. IN 2057 THAT'S $104 BILLION A YEAR WITH A RISING, AGEING POPULATION. AND EVEN YOU HAVE SAID THAT WE CAN AFFORD IT, AND I'M QUOTING YOU HERE, AS LONG AS WE KEEP CONTROL OF OTHER GOVERNMENT SPENDING. THAT'S RIGHT. SO, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO CUT TO AFFORD IT? WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO CUT ANYTHING. I MEAN, WHAT YOU'VE SEEN` LOOK, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT GOING FROM 5% TO 7% OVER THE NEXT 30 YEARS IN TERMS OF SPENDING ON SUPERANNUATION. LET'S JUST REMEMBER THAT IN THE LAST SIX YEARS, THIS GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN TOTAL GOVERNMENT SPENDING FROM NEARLY 35% OF GDP DOWN TO JUST UNDER 30% NOW. SO WE'VE MANAGED TO DROP GOVERNMENT SPENDING BY 5% OF GDP IN SIX YEARS WITHOUT CLOSING THINGS DOWN. WE'VE ACTUALLY CONTINUED TO INVEST HEAVILY IN SOCIAL PROGRAMMES. WE'VE INCREASED BENEFITS. WE'VE DONE ALL SORTS OF THINGS SO... WE'LL HAVE AN ITEM ON LATER THIS MORNING WHICH IS ABOUT HEALTH, WHERE THE BUDGET IS, ARGUABLY` A TIGHT REIN IS KEPT ON THE HEALTH BUDGET, AND IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE FIGURES, THEY SAY, DECREASING AGAINST POPULATION, HEALTH FUNDING, SO YOU ARE KEEPING A TIGHT REIN. YOU'RE GOING TO BE SPENDING MONEY ON BUILDING NEW PRISON BEDS. SO DOES THIS MEAN TAX CUTS WILL BE OFF TO AFFORD SUPERANNUATION? NO. I JUST THINK YOU NEED TO CONTINUE ON IN A STABLE, SORT OF, SENSIBLE, PRAGMATIC GOVERNMENT LIKE WE'VE HAD. AND IF YOU KEEP GOOD, SOUND CONTROL OF THE FINANCES, THEN THERE'S NO REASON TO THINK THAT NZERS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOOK AFTER THEIR OLDER PEOPLE IN THEIR RETIREMENT. THE POINT THAT I FOCUS ON AS COMMERCE MINISTER, IS AROUND ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO SAVE THROUGH KIWISAVER. AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS` YOU KNOW, THE CHALLENGE THAT WE'VE GOT IS THAT THERE IS A TENDENCY FOR PEOPLE TO SIGN UP WHEN THEY START A NEW JOB AND THEN NOT THINK ABOUT IT FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS. AND SO THE THING THAT WORRIES ME IS THAT WE WOULDN'T WANT A GENERATION OF NZERS TO GET TO RETIREMENT, HAVING BEEN IN KIWISAVER FOR 30 OR 40 YEARS` SO WHY NOT AUTO-ENROL THEM, THEN? WELL, THEY ARE AUTO-ENROLLED. YOU CAN OPT OUT IF YOU NEED TO, BUT AT THE MOMENT WHEN YOU START A NEW JOB, YOU'RE AUTO-ENROLLED. YES. WHEN YOU START A NEW JOB. YEAH. SURE. SUPER IS FOR OUR VULNERABLE TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN PEOPLE RETIRE, THERE IS SOMETHING TO SUSTAIN THEM. AND YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE PAYING INTO KIWISAVER. I SUPPOSE THE ISSUE IS, WE'VE SEEN THIS YEAR THAT THERE'S PLENTY OF WORKING POOR WHO CAN'T AFFORD A ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD OR A HOT MEAL. HOW DO YOU SUGGEST THEY SAVE FOR THEIR RETIREMENT? WELL, THAT COMES BACK TO THE GOVERNMENT DOING EVERYTHING IT CAN TO CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE ECONOMY GROWS. AND, BOY, WE'VE GOT A PRETTY GOOD STORY ON THAT FRONT. I MEAN, THE ECONOMY'S GROWN 3�%, WE'RE CREATING NEW JOBS ` 300,000 NEW JOBS IN NZ SINCE THE BOTTOM OF THE GLOBAL RECESSION, AND AVERAGE WAGES ARE RISING FASTER THAN INFLATION, SO THAT'S ALL GOOD STUFF, AND I THINK WE'VE GOT EVERY REASON TO BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT NZ'S FUTURE. SURE, WE'VE GOT CHALLENGES, BUT THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING IS TO HAVE A GOOD, STRONG ECONOMY WHERE PEOPLE CAN GET JOBS. BUT THE THING ABOUT KIWISAVER IS THAT IT'S NOT THERE TO REPLACE SUPER, AND SO THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH THE NARRATIVE IS THAT WHEN PEOPLE SAY, 'THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS UNSUSTAINABLE AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE SUPER WHEN YOU RETIRE,' I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT MESSAGE TO SEND TO PEOPLE AT ALL. IT'S NOT THE RIGHT MESSAGE. THE COMMISSIONER IS NOT SAYING THAT. SHE'S SAYING YOU'LL JUST GET SUPER LATER. YOU SHOULD GET SUPER LATER, COS WE CAN'T AFFORD TO GIVE IT TO YOU AT 65. LIKE I'M SAYING, I THINK WHAT WE HAVE GOT IS SUSTAINABLE. BUT THE KIWISAVER REGIME IS TO SUPPLEMENT THAT, NOT TO REPLACE IT. AND THAT'S WHY I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE ENCOURAGE` I MEAN, THERE'S EVERY INCENTIVE FOR NZERS TO SAVE` BUT NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD KIWISAVER. WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT 2� MILLION NZERS WHO ARE IN KIWISAVER AT THE MOMENT. 1.1 MILLION ARE NOT PAYING A SINGLE CENT IN. YEAH. YEAH. THEY'VE SIGNED UP, BUT THEY'RE NOT PAYING... THEY'RE NOT SAVING. YEAH. QUITE A NUMBER OF THEM WILL BE KIDS WHO HAVE BEEN SIGNED UP UNDER THE AGE OF 18. 52% INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITHDRAWING MONEY FROM KIWISAVER DUE TO HARDSHIP. THAT IS EVIDENCE PEOPLE CANNOT AFFORD IT. AND THAT'S ABOUT 100,000 OUT OF THE 2.5 MILLION, SO IT'S A PRETTY SMALL GROUP. AND WE HAVE A BIT OF FLEXIBILITY IN KIWISAVER SO THAT IF YOU DO HAVE REAL ISSUES, YOU CAN TAKE THE MONEY OUT, AND ALSO SO PEOPLE CAN TAKE IT OUT AND BUY THEIR FIRST HOME. SO YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A BIT OF FLEXIBILITY IN THE SYSTEM. BUT THE POINT REMAINS, AND WHERE I FOCUS AS A MINISTER, IS TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE HAVE GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO ENGAGE WITH KIWISAVER. AND I PAY A LOT OF ATTENTION TO THINGS SUCH AS ENSURING PEOPLE THINK ABOUT WHAT KIND OF FUND THEY'RE IN, WHETHER THEY'RE IN A GROWTH FUND OR A DEFENSIVE ONE, AND ALSO PAYING ATTENTION TO THE FEES THEY PAY. AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I'VE BEEN WORKING ON AS WELL, BECAUSE WHAT YOU DON'T WANT IS PEOPLE TO WAKE UP AFTER 30 YEARS AND REALISE THAT THEY WERE IN THE WRONG FUND, THEY WERE PAYING HIGH FEES AND THE RESULT IS NOT AS GOOD AS IT COULD BE. THE OTHER POINT THAT THE COMMISSIONER RAISED THERE WAS NEW NZERS WHO ARE COLLECTING SUPER AFTER 10 YEARS IN THE COUNTRY, AND SHE'S SAYING THAT THE OECD AVERAGE IS 26 YEARS YOU HAVE TO BE IN THE COUNTRY BEFORE YOU CAN COLLECT SUPER. SHOULD YOU CHANGE THAT, DO YOU THINK? WELL, LOOK, I THINK WE'RE A GENEROUS COUNTRY AND WE HAVE BEEN ALWAYS. I THINK` LIKE I SAY, THE OVERALL SYSTEM IS SUSTAINABLE, BUT, ULTIMATELY, THAT'S A MATTER FOR THE MINISTER OF FINANCE OR IMMIGRATION TO DEAL WITH. IT'S NOT MY AREA DIRECTLY, BUT I THINK THE BROADER POINT IS THAT YOU DO HAVE A ROBUST, SUSTAINABLE SYSTEM. ALL RIGHT. THANKS FOR JOINING ME THIS MORNING. MUCH APPRECIATED. WELL, IT'S BEEN YEARS SINCE THE MASON INQUIRY LED TO SOME GROUND-BREAKING REFORMS IN OUR MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM. NOW THE SECTOR IS BACK IN THE SPOTLIGHT AFTER A SERIES OF TRAGIC INCIDENTS AND CALLS FOR AN INDEPENDENT NATIONAL INQUIRY. CAITLIN MCGEE REPORTS. EERIE MUSIC IT HAS A HAUNTING HISTORY, AND THE KINGSEAT PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL IS A CHILLING REMINDER OF WHAT OUR MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM USED TO BE LIKE. WE'VE COME A LONG WAY SINCE LOCKING PEOPLE UP IN ASYLUMS LIKE THIS. PROFESSOR MAX ABBOTT DEDICATED HIS CAREER TO THE SWEEPING REFORMS THAT SHUT THESE PLACES DOWN, BUT NOW HE'S CONCERNED. THERE ARE CRACKS IN THE SYSTEM, AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING AND SUFFERING NEEDLESSLY, AND THAT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE. AND HE'S NOT ALONE. WHETHER IT'S SERVICES STRETCHED TO BREAKING POINT... ACROSS THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF MENTAL HEALTH, I'D SAY IT IS IN CRISIS. ...PROFESSIONALS EXHAUSTED AND BURNT OUT... I CAME ACROSS SOMEONE THE OTHER DAY WHO HAD 70, 80 CASES AND ONE FELLOW WHO HAS FILLING IN FOR SOMEONE ELSE WHO HAD 110 CASES, AND THAT'S JUST COMPLETELY UNSUSTAINABLE. ...OR FAMILIES LIVING WITH FEAR AND GRIEF, A DEPRESSING PICTURE IS EMERGING OF OUR MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM. HE JUST HAD TROUBLE STICKING AT THINGS. DAVE MCPHERSON'S SON NICKY WAS A PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIC. HE'D MISSED SOME MEDICATION, AND HIS FAMILY WARNED HEALTH WORKERS HE WAS BECOMING MORE UNWELL. JANE, MY PARTNER, PLEADED TO HAVE HIM GO INTO` BE TAKEN INTO THE HENRY BENNETT CENTRE FOR HIS OWN SAFETY. THEY DID UPLIFT HIM AND GIVE HIM HIS FORTNIGHTLY INJECTIONS SIX WEEKS LATE. THEY SAID HE'S FINE TO STAY OUT IN THE COMMUNITY. THREE OR FOUR DAYS LATER HE SLASHED HIS WRISTS AND WAS FOUND BY HIS FLATMATES IN A POOL OF BLOOD LATE AT NIGHT. AFTER HIS FIRST SUICIDE ATTEMPT, NICKY WAS ADMITTED TO THE ACUTE PSYCH WARD IN HAMILTON, BUT WHILE INSIDE HE WAS ALLOWED UNESCORTED LEAVE. HE WAS FOUND DEAD TWO DAYS LATER. MCPHERSON HAS NOW BEEN ELECTED TO THE WAIKATO DHB. HE'S DETERMINED TO SHAKE UP SUPPORT FOR PATIENTS AND THEIR FAMILIES AND IS EVEN MORE RESOLUTE AFTER RECENT CASE IN OTOROHANGA, IN WHICH FOUR PEOPLE DIED, INCLUDING ROSS BREMNER AND HIS MOTHER. WE KNOW AND THE DHB HAS AGREED THAT ROSS BREMNER'S MOTHER DID CONTACT THEM AND SAY SHE WAS CONCERNED, AND OUR UNDERSTANDING IS THAT SHE` HER CONCERN WAS NOT THAT HE MIGHT COMMIT SUICIDE BUT THAT HE MIGHT HARM OTHERS, EVEN THOUGH HE WASN'T KNOWN AS A VIOLENT PERSON, BUT SHE WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. AND FOR A MOTHER TO RING UP AND SAY THAT, YOU THINK ALARM BELLS ARE RINGING. PSYCHOTHERAPIST KYLE MACDONALD SAYS THESE ARE SYMPTOMS OF A SYSTEM THAT'S FALLING APART. I'VE BEEN QUITE CLEAR IN A NUMBER OF PLACES THAT I THINK THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM AT THE MOMENT IS IN CRISIS, AND I DON'T SAY THAT LIGHTLY. I THINK THINGS ARE AT A VERY DANGEROUS POINT, I THINK, AND WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME OF THE EFFECTS OF THAT IN TERMS OF PEOPLE NOT BEING ABLE TO ACCESS CARE AND LOTS OF CONCERNED PEOPLE SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE AT RISK ARE NOW BEING LEFT IN THE COMMUNITY WITH THE CONSEQUENCES THAT THAT CAUSES. FOR 16 YEARS ANDY COLWELL HAS WORKED AS A COMMUNITY MENTAL HEALTH WORKER IN AUCKLAND. AS WE'VE HAD A GREATER NUMBER OF PEOPLE COMING TO US NEEDING THE SERVICE, WE'VE BECOME SO STRETCHED WE CAN'T PROVIDE THE SERVICE WE WANT TO PROVIDE. HE SAYS A DANGEROUS CYCLE IS PLAYING OUT. IT'S VERY HARD TO GET SOMEBODY INTO THE UNIT UNLESS THEY ARE EXTREMELY UNWELL. AND IF THEN THEY HAVE TO GO INTO THE UNIT, THAT MEANS THAT SOMEBODY HAS TO COME OUT BECAUSE THEY'RE GENERALLY FULL. AND DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE NOT BASED ON PURELY CLINICAL DECISIONS AROUND THAT WHETHER THAT PERSON'S READY TO DISCHARGE, BUT THAT PERSON IS THE MOST SUITABLE PERSON TO GO BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY, AND YOU WOULD ARGUE ` YOU CAN ARGUE ` THAT THAT PERSON MAY NOT BE READY TO LEAVE THE ACUTE IN-PATIENT UNIT. THE INCREASE IN DEMAND IS ALSO LEADING TO STAFFING SHORTAGES. SO, WE'VE GOT REPORTS BACK OF, UM, SOME NURSES WORKING 60 DOUBLE SHIFTS IN A WEEK, SO IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT ONE NURSE BUT, YOU KNOW, A GROUP OF NURSES WORKING A 60 IN ONE WEEK, WHICH IS` YOU KNOW, THAT'S 15, 16, 17 HOUR SHIFTS, HAVING A BIT OF A BREAK AND THEN, YOU KNOW, DOING THAT AGAIN AND AGAIN, AND THAT'S JUST HUGE, HUGE WORK PRESSURE. THE ACUTE PSYCH WARD AT NORTH SHORE HOSPITAL, HE PUNA WAIORA, HAD TO SHUT EIGHT PSYCH BEDS LAST MONTH BECAUSE THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH NURSES TO SAFELY CARE FOR PATIENTS. THAT'S NOT A DECISION THAT'S TAKEN LIGHTLY? NO. THAT'S A` THAT IS A BIG DECISION, AND I THINK THAT WAS REFLECTIVE OF THE STATE OF THE UNIT AT THAT TIME. IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, IS SHUTTING EIGHT BEDS A LARGE NUMBER TO HAVE TO SHUT DOWN? IT'S THE LARGEST I'VE KNOWN. AND AN ACUTE CRISIS TEAM IN AUCKLAND HAS GOT A CRISIS OF ITS OWN. THERE'S A PART OF THE CRISIS TEAM THAT I KNOW, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE A SERVICE BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T HAD THE STAFF ACTUALLY ON DUTY TO DO THE SERVICE. THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET PEOPLE TO COME IN TO COVER. AND SO THEREFORE THAT PARTICULAR JOB OR THOSE JOBS AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME OF THE DAY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO BE DONE PURELY BECAUSE THERE'S NO STAFF THERE. NOW, THIS IS LIKE PART OF A CRISIS TEAM, AND THAT TO ME IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN OUR CURRENT MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM. IF YOU CAN'T GET A CRISIS TEAM TO COVER ITS WORK BECAUSE THERE ISN'T THE STAFF AVAILABLE, THEN WE DO HAVE SERIOUS PROBLEMS. ALL OF THE ACUTE UNITS NEED EMERGENCY FUNDING, AND WE NEED TO HAVE A NATIONAL REVIEW, BUT WE NEED TO START ACTUALLY RESPONDING TO THE CRISIS RATHER THAN PRETENDING IT ISN'T HAPPENING. MENTAL HEALTH HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE POOR COUSIN OF THE HEALTH SYSTEM, UNDERFUNDED AND UNDER-RESOURCED. BUT PEOPLE WORKING IN THE SECTOR SAY OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS IN PARTICULAR, A DANGEROUS COMBINATION OF POPULATION GROWTH, A LACK OF FUNDING AND INCREASING INEQUALITY HAS BROUGHT THE SYSTEM TO BREAKING POINT. WAITEMATA FOR EXAMPLE, THE CE TOLD US THAT IN THE LAST 18 MONTHS, 90,000 PEOPLE ` THAT'S THE POPULATION OF DUNEDIN ` HAS SETTLED IN THE CATCHMENT AREA AND NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE FUNDED, SO THEY'RE NOT FUNDED FOR THEIR GENERAL HEALTH AND THEY'RE NOT FUNDED FOR MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS EITHER. ACCORDING TO OFFICIAL INFORMATION, AN EXTERNAL REVIEW INTO NORTHLAND DHB'S MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTION SERVICES UNIT FOUND... SERVICES UNDER INCREASING PRESSURE, SEEING OCCUPANCY OF 100%. THE VOLUMES OF PEOPLE REQUIRING MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES HAS INCREASED BY 5% EVERY YEAR OVER RECENT YEARS, BUT THIS INCREASE HAS NOT SEEN A CORRESPONDING INCREASE IN COMMUNITY SERVICES. IT ADDED, DESPITE SIGNIFICANT ANNUAL INCREASES IN BUDGET, MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTION SERVICES HAVE OVER THE PAST FIVE YEARS CONSISTENTLY EXCEEDED THIS BUDGET ALLOWANCE. AND THE OVERALL PICTURE INDICATES THAT THE CURRENT PRESSURE BEING EXPERIENCED BY THE INPATIENT UNIT IS BEING EXACERBATED BY THE INABILITY OF COMMUNITY SERVICES TO COPE WITH THE VOLUME OF DEMAND. THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH SAYS IT'S BOOSTED FUNDING FOR MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTION SERVICES FROM 1.1 BILLION IN 2008 AND '09 TO 1.4 BILLION IN 2015 AND '16. BUT ACCORDING TO INFOMETRICS DATA, BECAUSE OF INFLATION AND POPULATION GROWTH THE ENTIRE HEALTH BUDGET HAS ACTUALLY BEEN UNDERFUNDED BY $1.7 BILLION OVER THE PAST FIVE YEARS. THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH HAS PUT OUT ITS RISING TO THE CHALLENGE. IT'S GOT A HUNDRED POINTS OF` 100-POINT PLAN ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO IMPROVE MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES BECAUSE THE DEMAND ON MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES IS GOING TO DOUBLE BY 2020 ` THAT'S THEIR OWN FIGURES ` AND YET THE FUNDING HASN'T. THE FUNDING IS NOWHERE NEAR, NOWHERE NEAR DOUBLING. CRITICS SAY ANOTHER BIG SETBACK WAS THE DISESTABLISHING OF THE MENTAL HEALTH COMMISSION IN 2012. THERE'S NOW NO INDEPENDENT BODY TO MONITOR WHAT'S GOING ON. AND SINCE THEN WE'VE SEEN SORT OF A GRADUAL SLIDE WHERE WE HAVE NO INDEPENDENT WATCHDOG, AND AS A CONSEQUENCE, WE'VE ALSO LOST THE RING-FENCE FUNDING ` YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FUNDING TO DHBS HAD TO BE ALLOCATED TO MENTAL HEALTH. AND, OF COURSE, IN A SITUATION WHERE MOST DHBS ARE STRUGGLING TO BE ABLE TO WORK WITH THE MONEY THEY ARE RECEIVING FROM GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOING TO BE JUGGLING THEIR BUDGETS, AND MENTAL HEALTH OFTEN MISSES OUT. THAT'S WHY WE HAD A RING FENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE. ABBOTT ALSO THINKS LOSING THE MENTAL HEALTH COMMISSION WAS A MISTAKE. HE WANTS A ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY OR AT LEAST AN INDEPENDENT ONE. WE ACTUALLY DON'T HAVE SOLID INFORMATION. IF YOU SAID TO ME, 'HAVE MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS INCREASED?' WELL, FRANKLY, I DON'T KNOW. I DO KNOW THAT THE DEMAND FOR ACUTE SERVICES HAS INCREASED IN MANY PARTS OF THE COUNTRY. I MEAN, THERE'S ARE MORE PEOPLE SEEKING HELP, AND MINISTRY OF HEALTH OFFICIALS WILL ACKNOWLEDGE THIS. I DON'T WANT TO BE TOO BLEAK. I MEAN, THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD STUFF HAPPENING, A LOT OF GOOD PEOPLE OUT THERE DOING REALLY GOOD WORK, BUT I BELIEVE THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT GAPS. I DON'T KNOW HOW LARGE THEY ARE. THEY NEED TO BE EVALUATED. MACDONALD TOO SAYS AN INDEPENDENT INQUIRY IS URGENTLY NEEDED. THE PROBLEM HAS BECOME SO ENTRENCHED NOW WE ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO NEED TO LOOK AT QUITE MAJOR SYSTEM AND CULTURAL CHANGE ABOUT HOW WE PROVIDE THESE SERVICES. THE WHOLE SECTOR ` PRIVATE, NOT-FOR-PROFIT AND PUBLIC ` NEEDS AN OVERHAUL, AND WE NEED TO LOOK AT HOW ALL OF THESE SERVICES ARE PROVIDED AROUND THE COUNTRY. HE'S BECOME SO FRUSTRATED, HE AND COMEDIAN MIKE KING HAVE TEAMED UP WITH ACTION STATION TO START THEIR OWN PEOPLE'S REVIEW OF MENTAL HEALTH. THERE'S LOTS AND LOTS OF RED FLAGS, AND I THINK THERE'S MORE THAN ENOUGH REASON TO STEP BACK AND TAKE A STOCKTAKE. AND, YOU KNOW, THIS ISN'T ABOUT POLITICS. I COULDN'T CARE LESS WHICH PARTY SOLVES THIS PROBLEM. IT JUST NEEDS TO BE FIXED. THAT CALL IS BACKED UP BY THOSE WORKING ON THE FRONT LINES. I KIND OF GET FRUSTRATED WHEN THE MINISTER OF HEALTH, JONATHAN COLEMAN, SAYS, 'WE PUT SO MUCH MORE MONEY INTO HEALTH AND PUT SO MUCH MORE MONEY INTO MENTAL HEALTH.' BUT, YOU KNOW, HE'S NOT ONLY COMPLETELY OUT OF TOUCH. I THINK HE'S BEING IRRESPONSIBLE, BECAUSE IT'S VERY CLEAR FROM THE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THE SYSTEM, PEOPLE WHO ACCESS THE SYSTEM, THE SYSTEM ISN'T WORKING AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE AND IT NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW. AND THOSE LIVING WITH THE TRAGIC OUTCOMES. DO YOU THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE SITUATIONS LIKE NICKY'S AND MAYBE THE BREMNERS' CASE IF SOMETHING ISN'T DONE URGENTLY? ABSOLUTELY INEVITABLY. WELL, WE ASKED THE HEALTH MINISTER, JONATHAN COLEMAN, ON TO THE PROGRAMME TO DISCUSS THIS STORY, BUT HE DECLINED. AND WE'LL BE BACK AFTER THE BREAK WITH AUTHOR STEVE CANNANE ON HIS NEW BOOK ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY IN AUSTRALASIA. BUT FIRST, JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO ON THE BIG POLITICAL RESIGNATION OF THE WEEK. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` WHO IS GONNA REPLACE PARATA THE DEPARTER? WELL, DOES THERE EVEN NEED TO BE A REPLACEMENT, JEREMY? I MEAN, I THOUGHT SHE STOPPED THAT WHOLE EDUCATION THING? NOT QUITE, PAUL. SHE DID GET IT DOWN TO JUST THE ONE BIG CLASSROOM, THOUGH. SORT OF LEFT IT THERE, LIKE A MONUMENT. YEAH. STILL, SHE'LL GET SOME TIME OFF NOW. PROBABLY A NICE CHUNK OF BACK PAY AS WELL. OH, YES, BUT SEE, THAT'S GONNA BE PAID BY HER NOVOPAY SYSTEM, SO THAT BACK PAY WILL PROBABLY GO TO SOME CARETAKER AT TAIHAPE PRIMARY. WELL DESERVED. FIJI PRIME MINISTER FRANK BAINIMARAMA, HIS FIRST OFFICIAL VISIT TO NZ, HAD A GO AT THE MEDIA, CALLING US 'UNRELENTING, NEGATIVE AND UNBALANCED'. WELL, I TELL YOU WHAT, I'VE GOT A FEW THOUGHTS ON MR BAINIMARAMA. HERE WE GO. WHAT DO YOU GOT, PAULY? WELL, WE` WE'RE ACTUALLY TAKING THE FAMILY TO DENARAU IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS, SO I MIGHT JUST LEAVE THEM AS THOUGHTS FOR NOW. YEAH, GOOD CALL. SPEAKING OF EXOTIC LOCATIONS, HAMILTON, THEIR CENTRAL BUSINESS ASSOCIATION ASKING PEOPLE TO STOP GIVING MONEY TO BEGGARS. YEAH. THIS IS A GREAT IDEA, I THINK. YOU SEE, THE BEGGARS WILL THEN DISAPPEAR, BECOME MUGGERS, AND THEN YOU WON'T HAVE A CHOICE BUT TO DONATE (!) EXACTLY. FINALLY, IS AN EXPLOSION OF YOUNG IMMIGRANTS CROWDING YOUNG KIWIS OUT OF JOBS? YEAH, PARTICULARLY CHEFS APPARENTLY. SO NOT ENOUGH JOBS TO GO AROUND MEANS WE NEED FEWER IMMIGRANTS. WE COULD OPEN MORE RESTAURANTS? YEAH, BUT WHO'S GONNA DO THAT? IMMIGRANTS USUALLY. OH, WE NEED MORE IMMIGRANTS. YOU'VE BEEN SAYING IT FOR A WHILE. WELCOME BACK. YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD OF SCIENTOLOGY'S CONNECTIONS WITH CELEBRITIES LIKE TOM CRUISE AND JOHN TRAVOLTA, BUT WHAT YOU PROBABLY HAVEN'T HEARD IS THE EXTENSIVE LINKS THE SO-CALLED RELIGION HAS DOWN UNDER. A.B.C. JOURNALIST STEVE CANNANE HAS JUST RELEASED A BOOK 'FAIR GAME' ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY IN AUSTRALIA. I SPOKE TO HIM EARLIER AND BEGAN BY ASKING WHAT MAKES SCIENTOLOGY DIFFERENT FROM WELL-KNOWN RELIGIONS. WELL, IT'S DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE THAT YOU CAN WALK INTO A CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ASK THE PRIEST WHAT HE BELIEVES IN, BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY BECAUSE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO PAY TO GET TO THE SECRET BELIEFS UP TO A CERTAIN LEVEL. YOU CAN'T GO IN AND ASK ABOUT WHAT'S IN OPERATING THETAN LEVEL III. YOU HAVE TO PAY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. SO, YES, THERE ARE BELIEFS THAT MANY PEOPLE WOULD FIND WACKY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND FIND WACKY IN SCIENTOLOGY. THE BIG DIFFERENCE IS IN SCIENTOLOGY THOSE BELIEFS ARE COPYRIGHTED, SO THAT MEANS IF SOMEONE WAS PUBLISHING THEM, THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY COULD POTENTIALLY SUE THEM. ALSO, IT MEANS THEY PROTECT IT SO THEY CAN MAKE MONEY OUT OF IT DOWN THE TRACK. SO JUST TO CLEAR UP ONE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION ` GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT YOU'VE FOUND OUT WRITING THIS BOOK, IS SCIENTOLOGY, IN YOUR VIEW, A RELIGION, A CULT OR A FULLY FLEDGED MONEY-MAKING MACHINE? I THINK YOU COULD DESCRIBE IT AS ALL THREE. THE HIGH COURT OF AUSTRALIA DESCRIBED IT AS A RELIGION. I CONSIDER IT TO BE A CULT BECAUSE THEY HAVE CULT-LIKE TENDENCIES. THEY HAVE A CHARISMATIC LEADER. THEY USE CONTROLLING BEHAVIOUR OVER THEIR FOLLOWERS. FOR EXAMPLE, THEY HAVE A POLICY CALLED DISCONNECTION WHICH BREAKS UP FAMILIES. IF SOMEBODY LEAVES SCIENTOLOGY, OFTEN THEY NEVER SEE THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS AGAIN. THAT IS CLASSIC CULT-LIKE BEHAVIOUR. IT ALSO HAS MONEY-MAKING TENDENCIES. L RON HUBBARD USED TO SAY, 'MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY. MAKE EVEN MORE MONEY.' HE ADMITTED TO CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT HE STARTED SCIENTOLOGY TO MAKE MONEY. SO I BELIEVE IT CAN BE CLASSIFIED AS ALL THREE. I THINK THAT IF SOMEBODY DESCRIBES SOMETHING AS BEING THEIR RELIGION, IF THEY'RE A RASTAFARIAN OR A JEDI KNIGHT OR A SCIENTOLOGIST OR A CATHOLIC, I RESPECT THAT. IF THEY WANT TO CALL THAT THEIR RELIGION, THAT'S FINE BY ME. I THINK THERE'S BIG QUESTION MARKS OVER WHETHER L RON HUBBARD BELIEVED IT WAS A RELIGION. I UNCOVERED DOCUMENTS WHERE HE USED TERMS LIKE 'THE CHURCH MOCK-UP', WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT, AT ONE STAGE WHEN HE WAS SETTING UP SCIENTOLOGY, ABOUT PURSUING THE RELIGION ANGLE. SO I THINK THERE'S HUGE QUESTION MARKS OVER WHETHER L RON HUBBARD ACTUALLY BELIEVED THAT SCIENTOLOGY WAS A RELIGION. AND YOU'RE VERY CLEAR IN, I THINK IT'S THE FOREWORD TO YOUR BOOK, THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE CAN BELIEVE WHATEVER THEY LIKE; YOUR ISSUE WITH THIS IS THE ABUSES THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON WITHIN THIS ORGANISATION. SO LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF WHAT YOU UNCOVERED. THERE WAS A PUNISHMENT CENTRE IN AUSTRALIA, WASN'T THERE, IN SYDNEY WHERE FOLLOWERS WERE SENT IF THEY FELL OUT OF FAVOUR? CAN YOU DESCRIBE TO ME WHAT HAPPENED THERE? YEAH. IT'S IN WESTERN SYDNEY, IN SUBURBAN SYDNEY, IN A PLACE CALLED DUNDAS. IT'S THE REHABILITATION PROJECT FORCE, AND IT'S LIKE A PUNISHMENT CAMP FOR MEMBERS OF SCIENTOLOGY'S ELITE UNIT, THE SEA ORGANISATION. AND THEY CAN BE SENT THERE FOR THE MOST BIZARRE INDISCRETIONS. I HEARD OF PEOPLE BEING SENT THERE, FOR EXAMPLE, A VENEZUELAN MAN, JOSE NAVARRO, WAS SENT THERE BECAUSE HE FELL IN LOVE WITH A WOMAN HE WAS FORBIDDEN FOR FALLING IN LOVE WITH. HE WAS SENT FROM THE SCIENTOLOGY CRUISE SHIP, THE FREEWINDS, WHICH CRUISES AROUND THE CARIBBEAN DELIVERING SCIENTOLOGY SERVICES TO WEALTHY SCIENTOLOGISTS. HE WAS SENT FROM THE FREEWINDS TO AUSTRALIA TO THIS PUNISHMENT CAMP FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS BECAUSE HE FELL IN LOVE WITH THE WRONG PERSON. I SPOKE TO ANOTHER PERSON WHO WAS SENT TO THAT PUNISHMENT CAMP FOR 12 YEARS. AND ON THIS CAMP, THEY HAVE TO WEAR ALL BLACK, THEY HAVE TO RUN BETWEEN JOBS, THEY DO HARD LABOUR. I WAS TOLD ABOUT MOVING ROCKS, THAT THEY HAD TO CLEAN OUT MAGGOT-RIDDEN DUMPSTER BINS, THAT THEY HAD TO DO HARD LABOUR. AND SO IT REALLY IS A PUNISHMENT CAMP, SO IT'S AN AWFUL PLACE TO BE SENT TO, AND IT'S A DIFFICULT PLACE TO GET OUT OF. SO JUST TO BE CLEAR HERE, ARE YOU SAYING THAT PEOPLE WERE TRAFFICKED THERE AGAINST THEIR WILL AND FORCED INTO WHAT WAS ESSENTIALLY HARD LABOUR? WELL, JOSE NAVARRO, WHO WAS SENT TO THIS PUNISHMENT CAMP IN AUSTRALIA, AND I DESCRIBE IT AS TREATING AUSTRALIA LIKE A PENAL COLONY, BECAUSE DAVID MISCAVIGE, THE LEADER OF SCIENTOLOGY, USED TO REFER TO SENDING PEOPLE AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE, SENDING THEM TO THIS DUMPING GROUND IN WESTERN SYDNEY. THEY WERE SENT THERE FOR THESE KINDS OF INDISCRETIONS, AND, YES, IT WAS CERTAINLY A PUNISHMENT CAMP, AND JOSE NAVARRO WAS TRAPPED THERE FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS UNTIL HE ENDED UP ESCAPING FROM THIS PLACE. YES, HE WAS GRANTED, IN THE END, WHEN HE ESCAPED, A VISA IN AUSTRALIA ON THE GROUNDS THAT HE WAS A VICTIM OF HUMAN TRAFFICKING. HE WENT THROUGH THE HUMAN TRAFFICKING UNIT OF THE FEDERAL POLICE, SO THEY CONSIDERED THAT HE WAS A VICTIM OF HUMAN TRAFFICKING BECAUSE THEY GRANTED HIM A VISA ON THAT BASIS. SO DOES THIS CENTRE STILL EXIST? AS FAR AS WE KNOW, IT DOES, BUT WE THINK IT'S BEEN DOWNSIZED TO A LARGE DEGREE DUE TO MEDIA PRESSURE. I SUPPOSE THIS RAISES SOME PRETTY SERIOUS QUESTIONS. THIS IS GOING ON IN YOUR COUNTRY UNDER YOUR GOVERNMENT'S WATCH, AND IF YOU HAVE A PERSON THERE WHO'S BEEN GRANTED RESIDENCY BECAUSE IT WAS FOUND THAT HE WAS TRAFFICKED, HOW DO THEY GET AWAY WITH IT? BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE ENTER THE COUNTRY ON RELIGIOUS VISAS, BUT IF THEY'RE BEING MISTREATED AND DETAINED, SHOULDN'T THE GOVERNMENT DO MORE? YOU WOULD THINK SO. THIS IS AN ORGANISATION THAT THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT CONSIDERS A CHARITY. THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY TAX IN AUSTRALIA, YET THEY ALSO CONSIDER THAT ONE OF THEIR MEMBERS WAS TRAFFICKED INTO AUSTRALIA AND THEY GRANTED HIM A VISA ON THAT BASIS. SO, YES, I THINK THERE'S SOME SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THEY CONTINUE TO GET TAX-FREE STATUS AND ARE CONSIDERED A CHARITY IN AUSTRALIA. I THINK A LOT OF IT COMES DOWN TO THE FACT THAT IT'S CONSIDERED A RELIGION IN AUSTRALIA, THAT POLITICIANS THINK IF YOU GO AFTER ONE RELIGION, THEN THEY MIGHT COME AFTER THEIRS. BECAUSE THERE'S FREEDOM OF BELIEF, FREEDOM OF RELIGION, PEOPLE CONSIDER IT A NO-GO AREA IN MANY WAYS. BUT THIS IS NOT ABOUT BELIEF, THIS IS ABOUT BEHAVIOUR, AND THAT'S WHAT MY BOOK IS ABOUT. IT'S ABOUT SCRUTINISING THE BEHAVIOUR OF THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY AND ABUSE THAT GOES RIGHT UP TO THE TOP AND ITS LEADER, DAVID MISCAVIGE. YOU MENTION THERE THE TAX-FREE STATUS AS A CHARITY IN AUSTRALIA. SAME SITUATION HERE IN NZ. GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE RESEARCHED, SHOULD THEY HAVE THAT STATUS? OR SHOULD COUNTRIES LIKE NZ AND AUSTRALIA TAKE THAT AWAY FROM SCIENTOLOGY? WELL, WHERE I AM AT THE MOMENT IN THE U.K., THEY DON'T HAVE THAT TAX-FREE STATUS, AND THE WAY THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY GETS AROUND THAT IS THE BRITISH CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY IS CENTRED IN ADELAIDE. SO WHAT REASON WOULD THEY BE DOING THAT BUT TO NOT PAY TAX? I FIND IT VERY HARD TO JUSTIFY AN ORGANISATION THAT TRAFFICKS PEOPLE, THAT FORCES WOMEN TO HAVE ABORTIONS, THAT SENDS PEOPLE OFF TO PUNISHMENT CAMPS WHERE THEY HAVE TO DO HARD LABOUR, AND ALSO THAT MAKES SO MUCH MONEY OUT OF ITS FOLLOWERS. I MEAN, YOU DON'T HAVE THE PRESSURE THAT FOLLOWERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OR THE ANGLICAN CHURCH OR YOUR LOCAL TEMPLE ARE UNDER THAT YOU ARE IN THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY TO DONATE MONEY AND TO BUY MORE PRODUCTS. THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT IT IS A MONEY-MAKING OPERATION. I THINK THAT TAX-FREE STATUS SHOULD SERIOUSLY BE SCRUTINISED IN COUNTRIES LIKE NZ AND AUSTRALIA. PEOPLE WHO ESCAPE SCIENTOLOGY ` AND ACCORDING TO YOUR BOOK, IT IS AN ESCAPE; YOU DON'T JUST LEAVE ` YOU THEN BECOME THE SUBJECT OF WHAT THEY CALL FAIR GAME, WHICH IS ACTUALLY THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK. WHAT IS THIS CONCEPT OF FAIR GAME? WELL, FAIR GAME WAS A POLICY THAT L RON HUBBARD WROTE, AND IF HE WROTE THE POLICY, HIS FOLLOWERS FOLLOW HIS WORDS. HE IS CONSIDERED THE SOURCE OF SCIENTOLOGY. AND HE BASICALLY SAID THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICS OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE CRITICISED OR ATTACKED SCIENTOLOGY ARE FAIR GAME, THAT YOU CAN DO ANYTHING TO DESTROY THEM. YOU CAN SUE THEM. YOU CAN DO WHATEVER TO DESTROY THEIR LIVES. NOW, THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY CLAIMS THAT THIS POLICY WAS OVERTURNED. WELL, THAT'S NOT TRUE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE MEMO HUBBARD RELEASED AFTER 'FAIR GAME', HE SAID THAT YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO MENTION IT IN PUBLIC BECAUSE IT'S BAD FOR PUBLIC RELATIONS. HE STILL SAID THAT YOU TREAT SUPPRESSIVE PEOPLE ` IN THEIR TERMS, EVIL PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICS OF SCIENTOLOGY ` IN THE SAME WAY THAT HE MEANT IN THE ORIGINAL MEMO, AND THAT IS YOU DESTROY THEM BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. YOU SUE THEM, GET PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS ON THEM. AND THAT INCLUDES ILLEGAL MEANS, ACCORDING TO YOUR BOOK? ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, FOR YEARS THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY'S INTIMIDATED JOURNALISTS, PUBLISHERS, ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE ABOUT GETTING THE TRUTH OUT ABOUT THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY. VIRTUALLY EVERY STORY I'VE EVER DONE ON SCIENTOLOGY THEY THREATENED TO SUE ME. THEY THREATENED TO SUE ME BEFORE THIS BOOK CAME OUT. SINCE THE BOOK'S COME OUT, THEY'VE TRIED TO DISCREDIT ME. THEY'VE DESCRIBED THE BOOK AS` THEY'VE LIKENED IT TO A HATE CRIME. THEY CLAIM THAT I'M A BIGOT WHEN MY BOOK HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH BELIEF; IT'S ABOUT BEHAVIOUR. SO THEY DO THIS. AT ONE POINT THEY TRIED TO FRAME A JOURNALIST IN NEW YORK IN THE 1970s FOR A BOMB THREAT. SHE WAS FACING YEARS IN JAIL, AND IT WAS ONLY WHEN THE F.B.I. RAIDED THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY ON ANOTHER MATTER THEY UNCOVERED ALL THESE DOCUMENTS THAT SHOWED THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO FRAME THIS JOURNALIST, PAULETTE COOPER. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING STUFF. IT'S A GREAT READ, A REAL PAGE-TURNER. STEVE CANNANE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. BE LOOKING OVER YOUR SHOULDER WHEN YOU LEAVE THIS INTERVIEW, WILL YOU? ALWAYS, LISA. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. AFTER THE BREAK, WE'RE BACK WITH THE PANEL: JENNA RAEBURN, JON JOHANSSON AND SIMON WILSON. WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST FROM VICTORIA UNIVERSITY JON JOHANSSON, FORMER MINISTERIAL ADVISER TURNED PR EXPERT JENNA RAEBURN AND METRO EDITOR AT LARGE SIMON WILSON. GOOD MORNING TO YOU ALL. PANELLISTS: GOOD MORNING. TALKING ABOUT THE RETIREMENT AGE THIS MORNING ` WHO HERE THINKS THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET SUPER AT 65? I THINK IT'S GOT TO BE POSSIBLE, BUT I LIKE THE IDEA OF IT BEING FLEXIBLE TOO. NOT ME. DON'T GET IT AT 65? JON? WHY NOT? OK, SO WHAT`? THE RETIREMENT COMMISSIONER'S SAYING PUSH IT OUT TO 67. DON'T DO IT QUICKLY. SPEND 10 TO 15 YEARS DOING THAT. IS THAT REALISTIC? I THINK THE MOST INTERESTING THING SHE'S SAYING IS THAT WE NEED TO BE LOOKING NOT AT THE 65 TO 67 NARRATIVE BUT AT THE 50 TO 70. WHAT SHE'S DOING THERE IS RAISING AN IDEA THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A MORE COMPLEX APPROACH TO SUPERANNUATION AND RETIREMENT, AND THAT'S REALLY DIFFICULT BECAUSE IN ALL POLITICS THE IDEA IS TO MAKE IT SIMPLER. YOU GET THE SIMPLE, EASY IDEA THAT WE CAN GO YES OR NO TO AND VOTE ON. BUT SHE'S TRYING TO DO SOMETHING MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT, AND I ADMIRE HER FOR IT, AND I THINK SHE'S RIGHT TO DO IT, AND WE NEED TO TRY TO DO IT, AND WE NEED TO TRY TO DO IT AS A COMPLEX ISSUE. SOME PEOPLE NEED TO RETIRE EARLIER. SOME PEOPLE ABSOLUTELY DON'T. YEAH. HOW DO YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FAIRNESS FACTOR, THAT MAORI HAVE LOWER LIFE EXPECTANCY? SOME PEOPLE WORK IN VERY PHYSICAL JOBS, DON'T THEY, JENNA? THEY MIGHT NOT MAKE IT TO 67 DOING WHAT THEY DO. YEAH, WELL, I'M ACTUALLY QUITE ATTRACTED TO THE UNITEDFUTURE POLICY, WHICH TO GIVE PEOPLE A CHOICE. YOU CAN RETIRE EARLIER AND RECEIVE A SMALLER AMOUNT. IF YOU RETIRE A LITTLE BIT LATER, THEN YOU RECEIVE MORE IN YOUR FORTNIGHTLY SUPERANNUATION. SO THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF WAYS THAT YOU CAN WORK IT IN QUITE A COMPLEX WAY. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A SIMPLE MATTER OF SAYING EVERYBODY HAS TO WORK UNTIL THEY'RE 70 OR 75. TO PUT IT BLUNTLY, JON, THIS IS THE OLD POLITICAL STINK BOMB, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? WHO WANTS TO TAKE IT ON? YEAH, AND I CAN'T VIEW IT IN ANY OTHER PRISM. SO I THINK THAT THE MOST WE WILL SEE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE QUALITY OF THIS CAMPAIGN, IT WON'T SHIFT VOTER OPINION AND AS REPRESENTED IN THE PARTIES WITH NATIONAL AND THE PRIME MINISTER, THIS IS A, YOU KNOW, EXCUSE THE PUN, THE KEYSTONE OF HIS TRUST RELATIONSHIP WITH THE COUNTRY. LABOUR WON'T GO NEAR IT AFTER THEIR EXPERIENCE IN 2011. AND WINSTON IS MOST LIKELY IN 2017 TO BE IN THE PIVOT POSITION, SO GOOD LUCK. SO WHAT THAT DOES MEAN, I THINK, IS SOME TINKERING, PARTICULARLY AROUND THIS AREA OF IMMIGRANTS, AND THE COMMISSIONER TALKED ABOUT THE DISPARITY IN HOW GENEROUS NZ IS COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE OECD. SO THAT IS ONE AREA WHERE I ACTUALLY THINK THERE WILL BE A MEETING OF THE MINDS. YEAH, BUT THE COMMERCE MINISTER THERE WAS SAYING HE DOESN'T ACCEPT FOR A SECOND THAT WE CAN'T AFFORD SUPER AT 65 AND NOR DOES HE ACCEPT THE SUGGESTION THAT YOU MIGHT TURN THE TAP OFF FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HERE FOR JUST 10 YEARS. HE SAID WE'RE A GENEROUS COUNTRY. THAT'S RIGHT. IT IS AFFORDABLE, BUT THERE'S ALWAYS AN OPPORTUNITY COST. THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING ELSE THAT YOU COULD BE SPENDING THAT ON. AND IF JON'S RIGHT, THEN THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO BE VERY VERY CLEAR AND STRONG AND CONSISTENT WITH THAT MESSAGE THAT WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM HERE. THEY APPEAR TO BE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT. AND THEY COULD MAKE A CONTRIBUTION. I ABSOLUTELY THINK NOW THAT THEY'RE BACK IN BLACK, YOU KNOW, GIVEN THEIR OWN PROMISES THAT THEY SHOULD START PUTTING CONTRIBUTIONS BACK INTO THE SUPER FUND, BECAUSE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN DO. BUT THE THING THAT REALLY GETS ME ABOUT IT IS THERE'S A BIG GENERATIONAL DIVIDE ON THIS ISSUE. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT I'M NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO RETIRE BY THE TIME THAT I'M 65 AND RECEIVE SUPERANNUATION. IN THE MEANTIME, IT'S MY GENERATION THAT ARE FUNDING BABY-BOOMERS THROUGH THEIR OWN COSY RETIREMENT. AND CAN'T GET HOUSES? WELL, EXACTLY, AND THEN THERE'S HOUSING AFFORDABILITY, STUDENT LOANS, CLIMATE CHANGE, ALL KINDS OF OTHER ISSUES. SO THE SUPER FUND AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, IN SOME MEAGRE FASHION DOES ADDRESS THE INTERGENERATIONAL ASPECT, DOESN'T IT? THAT'S RIGHT, AND THAT'S WHAT IT WAS INTENDED TO DO. I MEAN, YOU RAISE THE ISSUE OF OPPORTUNITY COSTS. IF YOU PAY FOR THIS, YOU MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD SOMETHING ELSE, WHICH I THINK IS INTERESTING, GIVEN THE STORY THAT WE PLAYED THIS MORNING ON MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES. PROFESSIONALS ACROSS THE BOARD THERE SAYING THAT WE NEED AN INDEPENDENT INQUIRY INTO THE SYSTEM. THEY'RE USING THE WORD 'CRISIS'. THEY DON'T DO IT LIGHTLY. SO WHY ISN'T THE HEALTH MINISTER PUTTING HIS HAND UP TO HOLD ONE? (LAUGHS) YOU REMEMBER ATUL GAWANDE, WHO WAS THE NEW YORKER WRITER AND DOCTOR WHO WAS HERE LAST YEAR, AND HIS ARGUMENT IN MEDICINE IS THAT MOST OF THE MEDICAL ADVANCES WE HAVE THESE DAYS ARE ABOUT HOW TO DO THINGS BETTER, BUT ACTUALLY WHAT WE THINK IS THAT MEDICAL ADVANCES COME THROUGH SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGH. HE'S SAYING, NO, THAT'S NOT RIGHT. IT'S THE HOW TO DO THINGS BETTER. TO DO THINGS BETTER, THE KEY TO THAT IS IN WHAT HE CALLS TO COUNT THINGS. IN OTHER WORDS, TO MEASURE, TO ANALYSE, TO ASSESS. YEAH, SELF-ASSESS. THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT. AND IT IS CRITICAL IN THIS AREA WHERE THERE ARE SO MANY PROFESSIONALS SAYING, 'THIS ISN'T WORKING. WE KNOW HOW TO DELIVER BETTER MENTAL HEALTH, 'BUT WE'RE NOT BEING FUNDED TO DO IT,' ARE THEY RIGHT? WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING WRONG? IT IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL THAT THE ASSESSMENT AND THE ANALYSIS IS DONE AT A MUCH HIGHER LEVEL, MUCH MORE COMPREHENSIVELY THAN OF HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS... YEAH. ...THAN WHAT WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT. BUT THIS IS AN ISSUE PRESUMABLY THAT ANY POLITICIAN AND GOVERNMENT WILL WANT TO STAY AWAY FROM THIS CLOSE TO AN ELECTION. I DON'T THINK IT'S AN ISSUE THEY WANT TO STAY AWAY FROM. IT'S ONE THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S ADDRESSING. IN YOUR STORY, YOU HIGHLIGHTED THE FACT THAT FUNDING HAS INCREASED FROM 1.1 TO 1.4 BILLION OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS. THAT IS NOT AN INSIGNIFICANT INCREASE. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, DIFFERENT REGIONS FACE VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES. AND A LOT OF DHBS ARE RUNNING THEIR OWN INQUIRIES. NORTHLAND IS ONE. WAIKATO IS ANOTHER ONE. AND I DON'T` IS THAT AN ISSUE, THOUGH, THAT PEOPLE ARE RUNNING THEIR OWN INQUIRIES? WELL, I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF NATIONAL INQUIRIES. THEY'RE CLUNKY. THEY'RE A BLUNT INSTRUMENT. THEY TEND TO BE A KNEE-JERK POLITICAL REACTION, 'WE NEED AN INQUIRY.' I'D RATHER SEE ACTION AND ACTUALLY SEE INDIVIDUAL DHBS IN REGIONS BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT THEY FACE IN PARTICULAR. I` IN THE BALANCING OF GOVERNMENT PRIORITIES FOR SCARCE RESOURCES, SURELY AT A PHILOSOPHICAL LEVEL, THE CORE FUNCTION OF THE STATE IS TO PROTECT THE MOST VULNERABLE NZERS. NOW, NEXT TO CHILDREN, NOBODY IS MORE VULNERABLE THAN THE MENTALLY ILL. AND I CONSULTED IN MENTAL HEALTH DURING THE DEINSTITUTIONALISATION PROCESS, RIGHT, AND I THINK WE ACTUALLY WENT TOO FAR. AND I REMEMBER TALKING TO AN ACUTE IN-PATIENT, AND MY EPIPHANY WAS WHEN THIS PERSON SAID TO ME, 'ACTUALLY, WELL, WE THINK YOU'RE MAD.' AND THE CORE THING IS TO KEEP THESE PEOPLE SAFE ` SAFE SOMETIMES FROM THEMSELVES AND SOMETIMES IT'S ABOUT KEEPING THEM SAFE TO KEEP US SAFE. NOW, IF YOU LOOKED AT THE CURVE OF REAL SPENDING AS OPPOSED JUST THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF, SAY, SOMETHING LIKE OUR INTELLIGENCE SERVICES FOR A THREAT THAT IS YET TO MATERIALISE IN THIS COUNTRY VERSUS THESE STORIES WEEK IN, WEEK OUT, MONTH IN, MONTH OUT, WHERE IS THE PRIORITIES GOING AND WHY ARE WE NOT PROTECTING OUR MOST VULNERABLE? BUT THAT'S A` SORRY, GUYS, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT. OH. STICK AROUND` IN REAL TERMS, IT IS NOT EVEN MEETING THE DEMAND. I MEAN, THAT'S THE NUMBERS, RIGHT? THEY'LL CARRY ON THE DEBATE DURING THE AD BREAK, BUT PLEASE STICK AROUND. WE'LL BE BACK IN A MINUTE WITH WHAT WILL BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH 'THE NATION' AND OUR PANEL. WELL, PERHAPS ONE OF THE BIG SURPRISES OF THE WEEK WAS HEKIA PARATA SAYING SHE'S NOT COMING BACK AT THE NEXT ELECTION. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT? WELL, SEVERELY DISTURBED CHILDREN HAVE BEEN, IT TURNS OUT, LOCKED IN DARKENED ROOMS, WHICH MAKES THEM EVEN MORE DISTURBED, AND HEKIA PARATA KNEW ABOUT IT SINCE JULY, SO SHE'S RESIGNED, DONE THE DECENT THING. WE DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT, DO WE? SO I DON'T THINK IT'S THAT. I THINK IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE THAT FOR HER OWN REASONS, RATHER THAN BEING PUSHED AND SHOVED, SHE HAS SIMPLY DECIDED ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I ALSO THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE NOW THAT BILL ENGLISH WILL WANT SOME SUBSTANTIAL PROGRESS IN EDUCATION AND HAS DECIDED THAT SHE CAN'T DO IT, AND HE WANTS TO STEP IN HIMSELF. WHO DO YOU THINK THE POTENTIAL REPLACEMENTS ARE, JENNA? DO YOU THINK SHE'LL BE LEFT TO KEEP THE PORTFOLIO RIGHT UP UNTIL THE ELECTION? IT LEAVES A BIG GAP, ABSOLUTELY, IN THE EDUCATION PORTFOLIO. I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF SHE STAYS IN THAT AREA FOR A LITTLE BIT LONGER, SO WE'LL WAIT AND SEE. BUT I THINK THERE'S LOTS OF POLICY WORK THAT SHE HAS UNDERWAY AROUND DECILE FUNDING REVIEW, MODERN CLASSROOMS, ONLINE LEARNING, ALL OF THOSE KINDS OF THINGS WHICH SHE'LL PROBABLY WANT TO SEE THROUGH FOR A FEW MORE MONTHS AT LEAST. YEAH. WHY DO YOU LEAVE YOUR DREAM JOB, JON? BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT SHE CALLED IT. WELL, I MEAN, I DO THINK ` I'M WITH SIMON HERE ` THAT THERE'S A PERSONAL ASPECT TO THIS, AND I THINK HEKIA APPEARED TO BE SOMEBODY WHO BEGAN HER CAREER WITH A VERY LOFTY GOAL OF PERHAPS BEING THE RUNNING ONE DAY TO BECOME PRIME MINISTER. SO IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE TIMING OF THE CYCLE NOW WITH JOHN KEY STAYING ON, PROMISED FOR A FULL FOURTH TERM, UM, THEN, YOU KNOW, HER RACE IS SORT OF WON. SO IN MANY RESPECTS I BELIEVE THAT THE THING THAT I WILL MOST REMEMBER HER FOR IS WHEN HER AND WIRA DID THE PRINCIPLE THING AND RESIGNED FROM THE PARTY AFTER BRASH'S OREWA THING. YET THAT MAY HAVE BEEN ACTUALLY THE VERY SEEDS THAT GUARANTEED THAT SHE WOULD NEVER ACHIEVE HER AMBITION WHEN SHE CAME BACK INTO THE PARTY. SHE WOULD NEVER HAVE GOT CAUCUS VOTES. SO I THINK SHE'S SORT OF RUN HER COURSE. YEAH. AND IN THAT SENSE, SHE DOES FULFIL THAT OLD MAXIM THAT ALL POLITICAL CAREERS END IN FAILURE. OOH, RAISED EYEBROWS. LAUGHTER I DON'T THINK THAT'S NECESSARILY FAIR. IF THAT WAS TRUE, THEN HER CAREER WOULD PROBABLY HAVE ENDED A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO WHEN THINGS WEREN'T GOING SO WELL. BUT SINCE THEN SHE'S REALLY HIT HER STRAPS AND HAS MADE A HUGE MARK IN THE EDUCATION PORTFOLIO, SO I THINK SHE CAN BE VERY PROUD OF WHAT SHE'S ACHIEVED BY THE TIME SHE RETIRES. IF THAT WAS RIGHT, SHE WOULDN'T BE RESIGNING JUST NOW OR WOULDN'T BE` PEOPLE RESIGN FOR ALL KINDS OF REASONS. YEAH, BUT` SIMON POWER RESIGNED AT THE HEIGHT OF HIS CAREER. CHRIS TREMAIN WAS ON THE WAY OUT WHEN HE RESIGNED. IT JUST HAPPENS IN POLITICS. OK, LOOKING FORWARD TO NEXT WEEK, THERE'S GOING TO BE A MEMORIAL SERVICE IN WELLINGTON FOR HELEN KELLY, JON, YEAH. YES. UM, WELL, SHE'S A GREAT NZER AND I THINK WELLINGTONIANS WILL COME OUT IN DROVES NEXT WEEK TO CELEBRATE HER LIFE. I FIND IT, YOU KNOW, QUITE DIFFICULT WITH HELEN BECAUSE THE PROMISE WAS SO EXTRAORDINARY AND I DO THINK THAT SHE WAS POTENTIALLY ONE OF THE BEST PRIME MINISTERS WE NEVER HAD. VERY SIMPLY PUT, SHE WAS THE BEST OF MY GENERATION, AND IT'S ANGUISHING TO KNOW THAT THAT CONTRIBUTION IS NOW FINISHED. BUT SHE MADE ENOUGH CONTRIBUTION FOR 10 OF US. MM. AND BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL FENCE HAS OBVIOUSLY PAID TRIBUTE TO HER, WHICH IS TESTIMONY TO THAT. WELL, ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE, THEY ALSO RELEASE THE LETTER ` THEIR LEGAL ADVICE TO THE HOBBIT DISPUTE, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE` THAT WOULD MATCH THEIR WORDS AND THE GRACIOUSNESS OF THOSE WORDS. HEY, THE OTHER THING I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT JUST BEFORE WE GO IS THE ONGOING SAGA OF AMERICAN POLITICS ` TRUMP V CLINTON. DID YOU THINK IN THE DEBATE THIS WEEK THAT DONALD LANDED ANY DIRECT HITS ON HILLARY? IF YOU THINK BACK TO THE START OF THE PROCESS, DONALD TRUMP USED TO SAY THINGS LIKE, 'ISIS. WE'RE GOING TO DEAL TO THEM. 'WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT STRAIGHT AWAY.' HE DOESN'T TALK LIKE THAT ANY MORE. YEAH. WHAT HE TALKS` WHAT HE SAYS IS, 'ISIS AND SYRIA AND IRAQ, HILLARY CLINTON AND BARACK OBAMA HAVE MADE THE SITUATION WORSE.' HE'S NOT WRONG ABOUT THAT. HE'S TERRIBLY WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING HE SAID HE MIGHT DO, BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY DOESN'T HAVE A PLAN ANY MORE, AND THAT'S VERY CLEAR. HILLARY CLINTON, TO HER CREDIT, AT LEAST HAS A PLAN AND IS AT LEAST TRYING TO TREAT IT SERIOUSLY. WHEN YOU`? BUT HE IS ABLE TO LAND SOME HITS IN THOSE WAYS. THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER THINGS WHERE HE'S JUST` HE MISSES. BUT THE THING IS, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT CHANGING TONE, I LOOKED AT HIM AND THOUGHT, 'YOU'VE BEEN TRANQUILLISED.' SOMEONE'S TOLD HIM TO PULL BACK. HE SEEMED VERY SUBDUED, DIDN'T HE? AND TO THE EXTENT THAT HE DID LAND ANY BLOWS, HE WAS ONLY SHORING UP SUPPORT WITH PEOPLE WHO ALREADY SUPPORTED HIM. WHEREAS HILLARY IS ABLE TO MAKE QUITE A PIVOT TOWARDS... PARTICULARLY ISSUES THAT YOUNG WOMEN ARE INTERESTED IN, BECAUSE SHE KNOWS THAT'S A GROUP THAT SHE REALLY NEEDS TO TARGET. SO SHE'S GROWING HER VOTE WHILE HE'S STAYING STATIC. TIME'S RUNNING OUT FOR HIM, JON. DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO BE` IT'S RUN OUT. YEAH? YOU THINK? GAME OVER? HE UNRAVELLED. HE DID KEEP IT TOGETHER FOR AS LONG AS THOSE TRANQUILLISERS WORKED, BUT THEN HE UNRAVELLED ALL LAUGH YOU KNOW, IT WAS ALWAYS A PART OF MY WAY OF THINKING ABOUT THIS CONTEST THAT EVERY TIME THEY WOULD COME TOGETHER, IT WOULD BE A STARK REMINDER THAT ONLY ONE OF THEM WAS FIT TO BE THE PRESIDENT. AND HE DEMONSTRATED THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN, AND IF YOU THINK THAT EVEN OBAMA LOST A DEBATE TO ROMNEY, CLINTON HAS ABSOLUTELY COMMANDED THIS DEBATE SEASON AND HAS PROVIDED THAT CONTRAST AT IMPORTANT MOMENTS. I THINK SHE'S GOING TO WIN EASILY. AND I THINK ALSO THAT TRUMP'S GIFT TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY MAY WELL TURN OUT TO BE THAT HE IS GIVING THE DEMOCRATS THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, AS WELL. YEAH. THE HOUSE, I THINK, IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO GET. THERE'S A VERY GOOD CHANCE ON THE SENATE. ONLY FOUR VOTES HAVE TO CHANGE AND THAT WOULD BE` BUT IT WOULD STILL BE PROBLEMATIC FOR HILLARY, PRESIDENT CLINTON, BUT, YOU KNOW, POSSIBILITY OF A WAVE STILL COULD HAPPEN AND HE COLLAPSES FURTHER. ALL RIGHT. THANKS. WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. LET'S TAKE A QUICK LOOK AT WHAT COULD BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. JOHN KEY LEAVES FOR A FIVE-DAY VISIT TO INDIA TOMORROW. A PUBLIC HEARING IS BEING HELD IN HASTINGS ON THURSDAY AS PART OF THE ENQUIRY INTO THE CONTAMINATION OF HAVELOCK NORTH'S WATER SUPPLY. AND ON FRIDAY, AS WE MENTIONED, THERE WILL BE A CIVIC CEREMONY IN WELLINGTON IN MEMORY OF TRADE UNIONIST HELEN KELLY. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. THANKS FOR JOINING US. CAPTIONS BY PIPPA JEFFERIES, SARAH MAIAVA AND ANNE LANGFORD. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016