KIA ORA, AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. WITH ELECTION YEAR JUST AROUND THE CORNER, CAN LABOUR TURN ITS FORTUNES AROUND? AS THE PARTY MEETS IN AUCKLAND FOR ITS ANNUAL CONFERENCE, WE ASK LEADER ANDREW LITTLE ABOUT ITS FUTURE AND A NEW PROPOSAL TO TACKLE THE COUNTRY'S SKILLS SHORTAGE. THEN ` WHY DO WOMEN STILL GET PAID 12% LESS THAN MEN? AND SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE LEADING BY EXAMPLE? WELL, WE KNOW THAT THE GENDER PAY GAP IS BIGGER IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS KNOWN THAT THESE PROFESSIONS ARE UNDERPAID FOR A LONG TIME, AND THEY HAVEN'T FIXED IT. PLUS ` WE CROSS LIVE TO THE US TO FIND OUT HOW THE HISPANIC VOTE COULD SWING NEXT WEEK'S ELECTION. THEN HOW PANEL ` JENNA LYNCH, ALI MAU AND JANE YOUNG GIVE US THEIR TAKE ON THE POLITICAL WEEK, AND JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO TRY TO AVOID GETTING SUED. GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US TODAY. WE LOVE HEARING FROM YOU, SO DO GET IN TOUCH. OUR DETAILS ARE ON SCREEN NOW. AND IF YOU TWEET, YOU CAN FOLLOW ALONG WITH OUR TWITTER PANEL, FORMER RADIO LIVE POLITICAL EDITOR, NOW WITH THE PSA, JESS WILLIAMS, AND FORMER AUCKLAND MAYORAL CANDIDATE, VIC CRONE, ON #NATIONTV3. THE LABOUR PARTY'S IN AUCKLAND THIS WEEKEND FOR A CRUCIAL ANNUAL CONFERENCE. A YEAR OUT FROM THE NEXT ELECTION, THE PARTY IS STILL LABOURING IN THE POLLS. EVEN WITH ITS PARTNER, THE GREENS, IT COULDN'T FORM A GOVERNMENT. BUT IT'S AIMING TO TURN THINGS AROUND WITH A LIST OF NEW POLICIES AND PROPOSALS, INCLUDING A PACKAGE FOCUSED ON THE FUTURE OF WORK. LEADER ANDREW LITTLE JOINS ME NOW. GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING. ONE OF THE THINGS UNDER CONSIDERATION IS A SKILLS SHORTAGE LEVY. < NOW, TELL ME, HOW WOULD THAT WORK? WHAT IS IT? WE'VE ALL SUFFERED IN NZ IN A LOT OF INDUSTRIES WHERE WE ARE JUST NOT PRODUCING ENOUGH PEOPLE WITH THE SKILLS THAT WE NEED. THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE. THERE ARE SOME EMPLOYERS WHO DO A GREAT JOB; THEY TAKE ON APPRENTICES. BUT THERE ARE OTHERS WHO DON'T. THEY GET THE BENEFIT OF A SKILLED WORKFORCE; THEY JUST TAKE THEM FROM FULLY QUALIFIED PEOPLE. SO WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS IF WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'VE GOT THE SKILLS FOR THE FUTURE, WHETHER IT'S IN THE TRADES, WHETHER IT'S IN OTHER SKILLED AREAS, FOR THOSE EMPLOYERS WHO DON'T TAKE ON APPRENTICES, DON'T INVEST IN TRAINING, YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE A LEVY, AND THAT WILL HELP TO DEFRAY THE COST OF THOSE WHO ARE DOING THE TRAINING AND OTHER BROADER COSTS AS WELL. SO WHO DO YOU THINK WOULD ACTUALLY END UP BEING LEVIED? WHO WILL PAY? WHERE THERE ARE INDUSTRIES THAT SAY, 'RIGHT, WE WANT TO GET OUR VOLUME OF TRAINEES AND APPRENTICES UP, 'AND WE KNOW THERE'S GOING TO BE THIS DEMAND FOR A SKILLED WORKFORCE IN OUR INDUSTRY IN THE FUTURE, 'SO WE WANT TO START MAKING STEPS NOW,' SO THEY WILL SAY, 'OK, WE'RE ALL IN THIS.' SOME OF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF PROVIDING THE TRAINING. OTHERS OF YOU AREN'T. THOSE OF YOU WHO AREN'T, YOUR CONTRIBUTION CAN BE LEVIED WHILE WE GET THE PEOPLE INTO THE INDUSTRIES AND GETTING THE TRAINING. SO INDIVIDUAL BUSINESSES OR UMBRELLA ORGANISATIONS? I EXPECT IT WOULD BE INDIVIDUAL BUSINESSES, BUT YOU'D WANT TO DEAL WITH INDUSTRY BODIES AND INDUSTRY ORGANISATIONS TO GET THE THING SET UP. AS YOU SEE, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH RESEARCH LEVIES IN SOME OF THE AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRIES, THE INDIVIDUAL BUSINESSES WILL PAY TOWARDS GETTING, IN THIS CASE, SKILLS TRAINING. AND HOW MUCH? HOW MUCH WILL THEY PAY? I CAN'T QUANTIFY IT, BUT IF YOU ACCEPT THAT WE HAVE HAD A CONSTANT AND CONSISTENT PROBLEM OF SIMPLY NOT GETTING ENOUGH OF THE SKILLED LABOUR INTO A RANGE OF INDUSTRIES, THEN WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE RESOURCES ARE THERE TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN. IN THE END, IT BENEFITS EVERY BUSINESS IN THE INDUSTRY, BECAUSE THEY'VE THEN GOT THE POOL OF SKILLED LABOUR THAT THEY'RE DRAWING FROM. ALL BUSINESSES, OR AT LEAST THOSE WHO ARE TYPICALLY DOING THE TRAINING, AREN'T TAKING THE RISK FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. SO YOU END UP SHARING THE COST AND SHARING THE RISK. YOU MENTIONED THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY THERE, BUT WHAT KIND OF JOBS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? GIVE ME SOME OTHER EXAMPLES. OH, THERE'LL BE OTHERS AS WELL. IT COULD BE IN THE IT INDUSTRY. IT COULD BE IN A WHOLE SWAG OF DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES. IT'S NOT KIND OF YOUR CLASSIC TRADES. SO MANY INDUSTRIES NOW` I GUESS ONE OF THE OUTCOMES FROM THE` SO THE JOBS MAY BE ON THE SKILLS SHORTAGE LIST? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? YOU KNOW, IT JOBS... BRINGING IN THE PEOPLE FROM OVERSEAS. THE ONES THAT WE'RE HAVING TO BRING PEOPLE FROM OVERSEAS FOR. I THINK ONE OF THE CONCLUSIONS FROM THE FUTURE OF WORK COMMISSION PROJECT IS THAT THERE'S A WHOLE HEAP OF NEW SKILLS GOING TO BE ADDED EITHER TO EXISTING JOBS OR TO JOBS THAT DON'T EVEN EXIST AT THE MOMENT. THE LEVEL OF SKILL REQUIRED TO COMPETE IN THE WORKFORCE OF THE FUTURE IS GOING TO BE A STEP DIFFERENT TO WHAT IT IS NOW, SO WE NEED TO REALLY STEP UP THE LEVEL OF INVESTMENT AND INVOLVEMENT IN EDUCATION AND TRAINING. SOME OF THAT THE STATE CAN DO. SOME OF THAT THE INDUSTRIES ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE DOING AS WELL. BUT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT JOBS THAT PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY BRINGING IN WORKERS FROM OVERSEAS FOR. SURE. I MEAN, I THINK WE'VE MADE THE POINT ALREADY ` THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THE WORK VISAS BEING ISSUED, THE NUMBER OF WORK VISAS GOING TO PEOPLE ON SEMI-SKILLED JOBS AND OCCUPATIONS THAT COULD BE FILLED BY PEOPLE HERE EVEN WITH A LITTLE BIT OF PRELIMINARY TRAINING, THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. THAT'S A QUESTION ABOUT HOW WE'RE MANAGING IMMIGRATION TO MEEK WORKFORCE NEEDS. SO TOUR GUIDES AND CHEFS? YEAH. I DON'T SEE THE TRAINING AND THE SKILLS ISSUE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN OUR FUTURE OF WORK COMMISSION REPORT AS NECESSARILY BEING RELATED TO THAT. I MEAN, IF IT ALL WORKS, OF COURSE, AND YOU'RE MANAGING YOUR IMMIGRATION PROPERLY, THEN YOU WILL SEE FEWER WORK VISAS BEING ISSUED TO PEOPLE IN THE SEMI-SKILLED ROLES. WELL, THE THING IS IT'S CALLED A SKILLS SHORTAGE LEVY, BUT IT COULD EQUALLY BE CALLED AN IMMIGRATION TAX IN SOME WAYS, BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BUSINESSES WHO ARE SHORT OF WORKERS SO THEY BRING THEM IN FROM OVERSEAS. IT'S AN IMMIGRATION TAX, ISN'T IT? NO. THIS IS ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE DOING` FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY LIVING HERE, EITHER BECAUSE THEY'VE COME HERE OR THEY'VE BEEN BORN HERE AND GROWN UP HERE, IS THAT THEY'RE BEING GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET THE SKILLS NEEDED TO FILL THE JOBS THAT ARE HERE. WE WILL ALWAYS BE DEPENDENT ON A LEVEL OF IMMIGRATION, SO THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. IT'S NOT ABOUT` BUT IF YOU'RE HAVING TO RESORT TO IMMIGRATION, THEN THERE'S NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE TRAINED HERE. AND BY YOUR POLICY, YOU WILL BE LEVIED FOR THAT. WELL, THE ISSUE WITH IMMIGRATION WE'RE SEEING AT THE MOMENT IS THAT WE'RE SEEING WORK VISAS ISSUED FOR POSITIONS AND FOR ROLES THAT ARE SEMI-SKILLED, MANY OF WHICH COULD BE FILLED BY PEOPLE ALREADY LIVING IN NZ. SO YOU TAKE THE CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF LABOURERS. SO WE HAVE, ACCORDING TO OUR UNEMPLOYMENT STATISTICS, ROUGHLY 15,000 PEOPLE WHO DO LABOURING WORK WHO ARE UNEMPLOYED. LAST YEAR WE ISSUED 6500 WORK VISAS FOR PEOPLE TO DO LABOURING WORK. THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. YOU MANAGE YOUR IMMIGRATION POLICY TO DEAL WITH THAT ISSUE. THE ISSUE THAT THE SKILLS LEVY PROPOSAL THAT WE'RE CONSIDERING IS ABOUT SAYING THE LEVEL OF SKILL REQUIRED TO DO A WHOLE HEAP OF JOBS IN THE FUTURE IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT. WE NEED TO BE MAKING THAT INVESTMENT IN SKILLS IN THE FUTURE WORKFORCE NOW. BUT THOSE TWO ISSUES` YEAH. THOSE TWO ISSUES ARE INEXTRICABLY LINKED, THOUGH, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE BRINING IN WORKERS BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A SKILLS SHORTAGE, IT IS, IN ESSENCE, A LEVY ON IMMIGRATION AND ON SKILLS. IF YOU DID NO TRAINING, IF THERE WAS NO TRAINING, NO EDUCATION AND PEOPLE HAD TO GO OVERSEAS TO GET IT, SURE, YOU'D SAY, 'YEAH, OK, WELL, THE ONLY WAY YOU'RE GOING TO FILL SKILLS SHORTAGES 'AND THE HIGH LEVEL OF SKILLS SHORTAGES, 'YEAH, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BRING THEM IN FROM OVERSEAS.' I DON'T SEE` IS THIS PART OF A DETERRENT, THOUGH, MR LITTLE? IS IT PART OF CREATING A DETERRENT FOR BRINGING IN THOSE WORKERS, A WAY TO CAP IMMIGRATION WITHOUT ACTUALLY SAYING YOU'RE CAPPING IT? WELL, IT'S ABOUT CREATING OPPORTUNITIES HERE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE, WORKING WITH BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE DOING THEIR BIT. I MEAN, WITHIN A SINGLE INDUSTRY, AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU'VE GOT SOME BUSINESSES WHO ARE COMMITTING TO TRAINING, INVESTING IN APPRENTICESHIPS, GETTING THE SKILLS FORMATION GOING FOR THEIR PARTICULAR INDUSTRIES. BUT THEY DO IT, AND OTHERS IN THE SAME INDUSTRY DON'T DO IT, AND THERE ARE SOME EMPLOYERS WHO ARE SAYING, 'WE'RE MEETING ALL THE COSTS, WE'RE TAKING ALL THE RISKS, 'AND WE ARE PROVIDING THAT KIND OF CHANNEL OF FUTURE SKILLS TO THE REST OF THE INDUSTRY. 'HOW ABOUT AS A MATTER OF FAIRNESS, WE SHARE THE COST, SHARE THE RISK?' AND THE SKILLS LEVY PROPOSAL IS A WAY OF DOING THAT. IT'S NOT A COUNTER` SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU'RE NOT USING IT AS A DETERRENT? IT'S NOT A COUNTER TO IMMIGRATION. WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO DEPEND ON A LEVEL OF IMMIGRATION TO MEET SKILLS SHORTAGES WE HAVE IN NZ. SO IF IT'S NOT A DETERRENT TO BRINGING IN IMMIGRANT WORKERS, THEN IT'S REVENUE GATHERING, ISN'T IT? AND WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THAT MONEY? WELL, IT'S REVENUE GATHERING FOR INDUSTRIES TO INVEST IN TRAINING FOR THEIR FUTURE OF WORKFORCES AND THEIR FUTURE SKILLS NEEDS. BUT HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DISTRIBUTE THAT MONEY? ARE YOU GOING TO RING-FENCE IT AND SEND IT TO PARTICULAR TRAINING ORGANISATIONS? ARE YOU GOING TO SET UP A CHEF SCHOOL, IF THAT'S WHERE THE SHORTAGE IS? HOW IS THE MONEY GOING TO BE SPENT? WE'LL WORK WITH EXISTING ORGANISATIONS AND EXISTING BODIES. SO YOU'VE GOT INDUSTRY ADVOCACY ORGANISATIONS, BUT YOU'VE ALSO GOT INDUSTRY TRAINING ORGANISATIONS WHO ARE ALREADY SET UP TO WORK WITH INDUSTRY TO DETERMINE THE FUTURE SKILLS NEEDS. WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE, NECESSARILY, APART FROM WHAT STATE FUNDING THEY GET, IS THE ABILITY TO ENSURE THAT THE KIND OF COSTS AND THE RISKS ARE SHARED EQUALLY BETWEEN BUSINESSES IN A SPECIFIC INDUSTRY. SO THE KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE IS THERE TO MAKE THIS WORK, AND FOR THOSE WHO MAKE THE DECISIONS ABOUT THE ALLOCATION OF THE RESOURCES FROM THE LEVIES RAISED. YOU DON'T NEED SOMEBODY SITTING IN A MINISTER'S OFFICE TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS. THE INDUSTRY CAN MAKE THAT. I'M JUST WONDERING HOW MUCH IT'S GOING TO COST TAXPAYERS, THOUGH, BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEVY A LOT OF GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS, BECAUSE THEY ARE BRINGING IN WORKERS. THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS IS BRINGING IN CORRECTIONS OFFICERS FROM OVERSEAS. HOSPITAL WORKERS IS ANOTHER PLACE WHERE WE HAVE BIG SHORTAGES ON THE SKILLS LIST; WE BRING PEOPLE IN OVERSEAS. YOU'RE GOING TO BE LEVYING GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS, AND THAT'S LEVYING THE TAXPAYER. WELL, THE GOVERNMENT ALREADY INVESTS IN THE TRAINING FOR CORRECTIONS OFFICERS, FOR EXAMPLE, AND NURSES AND DOCTORS AND OTHER HEALTH PROFESSIONALS. THE PRIVATE SECTOR INVESTS IN THE TRAINING FOR A LOT OF THE AGED CARE WORKERS, FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE IT'S LARGELY A PRIVATISED INDUSTRY. AND YOU'LL WORK WITH THE ITO THAT LOOKS AFTER THOSE WORKERS AND FOR THAT INDUSTRY TO MAKE SURE THAT THE... BUT HAVE YOU WORKED OUT HOW MUCH IT'S GOING TO COST? ...LEVY RAISED IS GOING TO ALLOW US TO MEET THE INVESTMENT OF THE FUTURE WORKFORCE FOR THOSE NEEDS. NO, WE HAVEN'T GOT DOWN TO FIGURES. THE FUTURE OF WORK COMMISSION REPORT THAT WE'VE GOT, THIS IS THE CONCLUSION OF TWO YEARS' WORK OF GOING OUT, CONSULTING, LOOKING AT 20 YEARS, LOOKING AT WHAT WE EXPECT WILL HAPPEN WITH THE WORKFORCE, WHAT THE DEMANDS AND THE CHALLENGES WILL BE AND COMING UP WITH A SET OF IDEAS TO START TO MEET THOSE CHALLENGES. SO A HIGH-LEVEL, HIGHLY DETAILED KIND OF POLICY LEVEL AND PRESCRIPTIVE WORK HASN'T BEEN DONE. THIS IS ABOUT A SET OF IDEAS TO HELP US MEET THOSE CHALLENGES OF THE FUTURE. OK, LET'S MOVE ON TO MT ROSKILL. YOU LOST THE PARTY VOTE LAST TIME IN THAT ELECTORATE. THE SUPPORT ARGUABLY IS FOR GOFF PERSONALLY, SO HOW WORRIED ARE YOU? WHAT I'M VERY PLEASED ABOUT IS THE CAMPAIGN THAT WE'RE RUNNING THERE. WE'VE GOT A FANTASTIC CANDIDATE WITH MICHAEL WOOD. WE'VE GOT A GREAT CAMPAIGN TEAM THERE. I'VE BEEN OUT THERE A COUPLE OF TIMES WITH MICHAEL AND WITH HIS TEAM, AND WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE NEED TO DO TO WIN EVERY VOTE, TO EARN EVERY VOTE, TO GET MICHAEL RETURNED. WELL, THE THING IS PHIL GOFF WON BY AN 8000 MAJORITY, BUT IN THE PARTY VOTE, NATIONAL BEAT YOU BY ABOUT 2000 VOTES. THAT'S RIGHT. THIS IS A BY-ELECTION ` SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT. YOU ONLY GET ONE VOTE. BUT THAT'S THE REASON WHY WE TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED, AND WE HAVE A GOOD CAMPAIGN TEAM WORKING VERY HARD. MICHAEL IS WORKING VERY HARD EVERY DAY. WE'RE OUT THERE EARNING EVERY VOTE WE GET. AS I SAY, WE TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED. THIS IS A HARD GRAFT FOR US, BUT I'M CONFIDENT WITH THE CAMPAIGN WE'VE GOT THERE, THE CANDIDATE WE'VE GOT, THE SORT OF FEEDBACK WE'RE GETTING, THAT WE ARE IN WITH A GOOD CHANCE. WELL, THE THING IS MT ROSKILL IS A VERY ETHNICALLY DIVERSE SUBURB. ARE YOU WORRIED THAT, SAY, POLICIES LIKE THE ONE YOU'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS MORNING MIGHT BE INTERPRETED AS AN IMMIGRATION TAX AND YOU MIGHT BE ALIENATING THOSE VOTERS? IN ALL THE DISCUSSIONS I'VE HAD ABOUT AN INDUSTRY LEVY FOR TRAINING FOR FUTURE WORKFORCE NEEDS, I'VE NEVER HEARD IT LINKED TO IMMIGRATION BEFORE. I THINK, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THAT'S FRANKLY A BIT OF A STRETCH. THE CAMPAIGN IN ROSKILL IS ABOUT HOUSING, IT'S ABOUT TRANSPORT AND TRAFFIC CONGESTION, AND IT'S ABOUT CRIME. MT ROSKILL PEOPLE AND SMALL BUSINESSES THERE ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE NUMBER OF ROBBERIES AND BURGLARIES AND ASSAULTS THAT MANY OF THOSE SMALL BUSINESSES ARE WITNESSING OR EXPERIENCING. THEY WANT A SAFER COMMUNITY. THAT'S WHAT MICHAEL WOOD AND LABOUR ARE STANDING FOR. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ADVOCATING FOR IN THE CAMPAIGN. SHORTLY ON THE SHOW WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES COMMISSIONER, JACKIE BLUE, AND SHE WANTS EVERY POLITICAL PARTY TO PLEDGE TO A 50-50 CABINET OF MEN AND WOMEN. WOULD YOU COMMIT TO THAT? I'M NOT GOING TO COMMIT TO THAT RIGHT NOW, COS I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NUMBER'S GOING TO LOOK LIKE FOR US AFTER THE ELECTION NEXT YEAR, BUT WHAT I CAN SAY IS WE ARE TOTALLY COMMITTED TO PAY EQUITY. IT WAS THE PROJECT THAT WE STARTED SEVERAL LABOUR GOVERNMENTS AGO. WE'RE COMMITTED TO IT, AND I THINK I AGREE WITH HER WHEN SHE SAYS, ACTUALLY, THE STATE SECTOR OUGHT TO BE LEADING THE WAY. THE STATE SECTOR OUGHT TO BE THE EXEMPLAR ON THIS. WHAT I CAN COMMIT` < BUT IN TERMS OF YOUR OWN CABINET` I MEAN, JAN LOGIE IS ALSO ON, AND SHE SAYS IT'S GREEN'S POLICY, HALF AND HALF, SO HOW'S THAT GOING TO WORK IF YOU GUYS ARE ALL IN CABINET TOGETHER? ARE YOU COMMITTING TO HALF AND HALF AS WELL? LIKE ANY GOVERNMENT-FORMATION PROCESS, YOU NEGOTIATE THESE THINGS, AND WE CAN` YOU KNOW, WE CAN MAKE COMMITMENTS. WE ARE TOTALLY COMMITTED TO PAY EQUITY, AND STARTING WITH THE STATE SECTOR, TOTALLY COMMITTED TO` < WHAT ABOUT TOTALLY COMMITTED TO REPRESENTATION IN YOUR CABINET? ...TO ENSURING THAT WE SEE MORE WOMEN IN SENIOR ROLES IN THE STATE SECTOR ` ACTUALLY, AND OUTSIDE IT TOO. YOU KNOW, I LOOK AT THE WORK THAT THE NZ INSTITUTE OF DIRECTORS IS DOING IN TERMS OF PROMOTING WOMEN INTO BOARD POSITIONS, INTO BOARD ROLES. THEY DO FANTASTIC STUFF. YOU KNOW, THE STATE SECTOR HAS GOT SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM THEM ABOUT WHAT WE CAN DO TO GET MORE WOMEN INTO SENIOR ROLES. ALL RIGHT. BEFORE WE GO ` WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME ` THE OTHER THING THAT JACKIE BLUE SAYS IS WE NEED TO LOOK AT MAKING PRIVATE COMPANIES REPORT THEIR GENDER PAY GAPS, ENTRENCH IT IN LAW AND FINE THEM IF THEY DON'T DO IT. WOULD YOU SUPPORT THAT? CERTAINLY SUPPORT REPORTING IT AND MAKE IT AS PART OF THE ANNUAL REPORTING PROCESS. WHETHER YOU` < AS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT? YEAH, PUT IT IN THE COMPANIES ACT. MAKE IT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS TO BE REPORTED ON. WORKING OUT A PENALTY REGIME OR A FINE REGIME FOR NOT MEETING WHATEVER TARGETS THAT WILL HAVE TO CHANGE OVER TIME ANYWAY, I'M NOT SURE THAT'S GOING TO BE PARTICULARLY HELPFUL. I THINK THE GIVING PEOPLE INFORMATION OR REQUIRING COMPANIES TO REPORT AND DISCLOSE THAT INFORMATION, TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE AND IS NECESSARY. ONCE YOU GET THE TRANSPARENCY, YOU KIND OF GET THE IMPETUS TO ACTUALLY MAKE THE CHANGE. < ALL RIGHT. THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. THERE'S A LOT THERE TO DISCUSS WITH OUR PANEL LATER ` ALI MAU, JANE YOUNG AND JENNA LYNCH. BUT AFTER THE BREAK ` WHY IS NZ'S GENDER WAGE GAP RISING, AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT IT? WELCOME BACK. AS OF THIS WEEK, NZ WOMEN MIGHT AS WELL BE WORKING FOR FREE. THAT'S BECAUSE WOMEN GET PAID 12% LESS THAN MEN, AND THAT GENDER PAY GAP IS EVEN BIGGER THAN IT WAS A YEAR AGO. IN A FEW MINUTES WE'LL TALK TO A PANEL ABOUT WHY THAT IS AND HOW TO FIX IT, BUT FIRST CAITLIN MCGEE REPORTS ON WHAT THE PAY GAP MEANS IN OUR LOWEST PAID JOBS. FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS, KRISTINE BARTLETT EARNED LITTLE MORE THAN THE MINIMUM WAGE. SHE CARES FOR THE ELDERLY, AND HER LOVE OF THE JOB MEANT SHE PUT UP WITH BARELY MAKING ENDS MEET. YOU KNOW, YEARS WERE GOING BY WITH NO` HARDLY ANY PAY RISE, 1% OR 2%, AND I THOUGHT, 'THAT'S...' AND THEN YOU SEEM TO BE STRUGGLING MORE AND MORE AS THE YEARS GO BY. AND I THOUGHT` MY SON ACTUALLY SAID TO ME, 'MUM, IT'S NOT EVEN WORTH GETTING UP TO GO TO WORK FOR,' AND I SAYS, 'I LOVE MY JOB.' SHE WATCHED AS HER COLLEAGUES STRUGGLED TOO. LIKE, YOU KNOW, WALKING TO WORK, COULDN'T AFFORD BUS FARES, UM, COMING TO WORK WITHOUT MEALS, LUNCHES, AND I'VE SEEN ALL THAT HAPPEN. THREE YEARS AGO SHE DECIDED SHE'D HAD ENOUGH. SHE SUED HER EMPLOYER, TERRANOVA, AND WON. BACKED BY THE SERVICE AND FOOD WORKERS UNION, NOW PART OF THE E TU UNION, BARTLETT ARGUED AGED-CARE EMPLOYERS AND THE GOVERNMENT THAT FUNDS THEM WERE IN BREACH OF THE EQUAL PAY ACT. WHEN THE EQUAL PAY ACT WAS PASSED IN 1972, IT WAS ABOUT ENSURING WOMEN AND MEN RECEIVED THE SAME PAY FOR THE SAME WORK, BUT BARTLETT'S CASE TURNED THAT ON ITS HEAD. IT PUSHED FOR WOMEN TO NOT ONLY RECEIVE THE SAME PAY AS MEN FOR THE SAME WORK BUT ALSO FOR DOING A DIFFERENT JOB DEEMED TO BE OF EQUAL VALUE. HER CASE WAS A PRECEDENT, AND IT PROMPTED THE GOVERNMENT TO SET UP A JOINT WORKING GROUP TO ADVISE ON HOW TO VALUE THOSE JOBS. THE GROUP, MADE UP OF UNIONS, BUSINESS AND GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATIVES, MADE A LIST OF RECOMMENDATIONS IN MAY, BUT THE GOVERNMENT HAS NOT YET SIGNED IT OFF. ACCORDING TO THE MINISTRY OF WOMEN'S AFFAIRS, WOMEN IN NZ EARN 12% LESS THAN MEN. THAT'S THE WORST PAY IMBALANCE IN NEARLY 10 YEARS. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS WOMEN TEND TO WORK IN LOW-PAID JOBS IN CARE AND SERVICE AREAS. FOR EXAMPLE, CARE WORKERS ARE 98% FEMALE. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE SEEING IN PROFESSIONS, THROUGH LAW AND THROUGH ACCOUNTING AND THROUGH MEDICINE, IS MORE FEMALE GRADUATES COMING THROUGH, SO THOSE INDUSTRIES ARE BECOMING WHAT'S CALLED 'FEMINISED', AND SOME INTERESTING RESEARCH HAS COME THROUGH INTERNATIONALLY THAT INDICATES WHEN YOU FEMINISE AN INDUSTRY, WAGE RATES, OR SALARY RATES, AND CHARGE-OUT RATES TO CLIENTS START TO DECLINE. KIRSTEN PATTERSON SAYS SHE'S NOT CONFIDENT OF WOMEN BEING PAID THE SAME AS MEN IN HER LIFETIME. SO ARE WE GOING TO CLOSE THE GENDER PAY GAP IN MY LIFETIME? I HOPE SO, BUT OUR CURRENT PROJECTIONS, IT'S GOING TO TAKE US AT LEAST 30 YEARS IN NZ AND 70 YEARS GLOBALLY, SO WE'VE GOTTA SPEED UP THE TIME IT'S GONNA TAKE. AND THERE ARE ECONOMIC REASONS FOR DOING SO. SOME OF THE GOLDMAN SACHS RESEARCH RECENTLY SAID THAT IF WE CAN LIFT WOMEN'S PARTICIPATION IN THE NZ WORKFORCE, THAT WOULD INCREASE GDP BY AS MUCH AS 10%. THAT'S WORTH CONCENTRATING ON. NOW 67 YEARS OLD, KRISTINE IS ON $15.75 AN HOUR. SHE IS STILL WORKING AND STILL WAITING FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO SIGN OFF ON THE PAY RISE SHE'S FOUGHT SO HARD FOR. WELL, WE ASKED THE MINISTER FOR WOMEN, LOUISE UPSTON, TO COME ON THE PROGRAMME AND TALK ABOUT THE GENDER PAY GAP AND WHAT CAN BE DONE TO INCREASE WOMEN'S PAY. WE GAVE HER PLENTY OF NOTICE. WE FIRST ASKED HER MORE THAN A MONTH AGO, BUT SHE DECLINED. SO WE GOT TOGETHER A PANEL OF WOMEN WHO DO HAVE A LOT TO SAY ABOUT THE ISSUE ` EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES COMMISSIONER JACKIE BLUE, THE GREEN PARTY SPOKESPERSON ON WOMEN, JAN LOGIE, AND TALENT COACH RACHEL PETERO ` AND I ASKED THEM FIRST OFF WHY WOMEN ARE STILL OVERREPRESENTED IN LOW-PAYING JOBS. I THINK A LOT OF IT'S HISTORIC, BUT IT'S ALSO HOW WOMEN HAVE BEEN STEERED TOWARDS CAREERS WHICH DON'T HAVE AN ECONOMIC ADVANTAGE. THAT ALL CAN OBVIOUSLY CHANGE WHEN WE HAVE THE EQUAL PAY CASE COMING THROUGH AND THE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE JOINT WORKING GROUP HOPEFULLY BEEN ACCEPTED BY THE GOVERNMENT. BUT I THINK WE'VE GOT LOTS OF WORK TO DO IN EDUCATION AND GETTING GIRLS EARLY ON AND OPENING THEM UP TO OTHER OPPORTUNITIES, SUCH AS STEM SUBJECTS, AND GOING INTO AREAS WHERE THERE'S ECONOMIC GROWTH. JAN, THE THING IS THAT THE JOBS DOMINATED BY WOMEN ARE PAID LESS. WHY? IT'S HISTORICAL. IT'S EXPLOITATION, ACTUALLY, WHEN YOU COME TO IT AND LOOK AT IT TODAY, BECAUSE WE'VE KNOWN THAT THOSE JOBS ARE UNDERPAID FOR A FEW DECADES NOW, THAT THEY ARE, SAY, REST HOME WORKERS, CAREGIVERS, SOCIAL WORKERS, LIBRARIANS, POSSIBLY JOURNALISTS, PROFESSIONS DOMINATED BY WOMEN THAT ARE HIGHLY SKILLED AND OFFER MASSIVE VALUE TO OUR SOCIETY AND ARE PAID OFTEN JUST OVER THE MINIMUM WAGE. WHEN YOU SAY EXPLOITATION, THEN THAT SUGGESTS A LEVEL OF INTENT AT KEEPING THE WAGES LOW. ABSOLUTELY. WELL, WE KNOW THAT THE GENDER PAY GAP IS BIGGER IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS KNOWN THAT THESE PROFESSIONS ARE UNDERPAID FOR A LONG TIME, AND THEY HAVEN'T FIXED IT. I DON'T SEE WHAT ELSE YOU'D CALL THAT. AND I WANT TO GET TO GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS SOON. RACHEL, DO YOU AGREE THAT IT'S EXPLOITATION? YEAH, I THINK WE'VE BEEN VERY PATIENT AS A SOCIETY. I THINK THAT, UM... THEN YOU LOOK AT THE PAY GAP FOR MAORI AND PASIFIKA, IT'S EVEN WORSE. SO I THINK WE'VE BEEN PATIENT. I THINK WE'RE HERE SAYING IT'S TIME TO PUT IN MEASURES. IT'S TIME TO LOOK AT QUOTAS. IT'S TIME TO LOOK AT ALL OF THAT AND RE-EVALUATE. YEAH, I LOOKED AT THE STATS FOR THE PAY GENDER GAP, TRACKED IT BACK FROM 1998 GOING FORWARD. IF WE USE THE MEDIAN, IT'S GOING TO TAKE 30 OR 40 YEARS TO GET A PAY GENDER GAP OF ZERO. IF YOU LOOK AT AVERAGE HOURLY, IT'S GOING TO TAKE A HUNDRED YEARS. I MEAN, THAT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE. NOT ACCEPTABLE AT ALL. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS AN ACCEPTABLE TIMEFRAME TO WORK TO, THEN? OH, I THINK THAT WE'D NEED TO PROBABLY HAVE A FIVE- TO 10-YEAR FRAME TO LOOK AT. THAT WOULD BE REASONABLE AND ACCEPTABLE. SO IN OUR LIFETIMES, YOU THINK IT'S`? ABSOLUTELY. YES. IT HAS TO BE, AND I JUST... I THINK THE PUBLIC MOOD IS SHIFTING, AND THERE'S A REAL SENSE OF WOMEN GETTING TO THE POINT OF FRUSTRATION BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN TOLD WE NEEDED TO EDUCATE OURSELVES TO BE ABLE TO BE PAID MORE. WE DID THAT. THEN WE WERE TOLD WE NEEDED TO NETWORK MORE AND LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME BETTER. WE'VE DONE THAT. AND STILL EMPLOYERS, AND INCLUDING GOVERNMENT IN THIS, DON'T TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR ENSURING THAT THERE IS EQUITY AND FAIRNESS IN THEIR WORKPLACES. WE'VE GOT TO CHANGE THE GAME. ON THAT SUBJECT, WE HAVE WOMEN THAT ARE DOING WORK WITH A CERTAIN SKILL LEVEL. IT MIGHT NOT BE EXACTLY THE SAME AS ANOTHER JOB, BUT IT HAS THE SAME SKILL BASE. THAT SEEMS COMPLICATED TO COMPARE THOSE TWO JOBS AND WORK OUT WHAT'S FAIR AND THEREFORE OFF-PUTTING, MAYBE, TO EMPLOYERS TO GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS. NO, IT'S NOT COMPLICATED. IT'S STRAIGHTFORWARD. PEOPLE PROBABLY TRY AND MAKE IT LOOK COMPLICATED. THE JOINT WORKING GROUP CAME OUT WITH A FLOW DIAGRAM OF HOW ALL THIS COULD WORK, AND YOU DO NEED COMPARATORS ` A MALE COMPARATOR TO COMPARE WHAT THE LOWER-PAID FEMALE WORK IS. AND CAN I JUST SAY, JACKIE ` SORRY TO INTERRUPT ` LET'S USE AN EXAMPLE SO PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, SO CAREGIVERS WERE SHOWN TO HAVE THE SAME SORT OF SKILL SET AS CORRECTIONS OFFICERS. CORRECT. BUT THERE WAS A BIG DIFFERENCE IN PAY. HUGE. SO PEOPLE WILL LOOK AT THAT AND THINK, 'WELL, HOW DO YOU COMPARE THOSE JOBS?' WELL, IT'S DOABLE. OTHER COUNTRIES DO IT. WE CAN DO IT. AND SO WE HAVE THE PROCESS OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS, A PROCESS GOING FORWARD WHICH WILL HOPEFULLY BYPASS COURTS THE MAJORITY OF TIMES AND REALLY LOOK AT BARGAINING, NEGOTIATION AND MEDIATION. BUT THE GOVERNMENT HAS HAD THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS SINCE ROUND MAY OF THIS YEAR. WOULD YOU EXPECT THEM TO MAKE A DECISION? WHY ARE THEY DRAGGING THEIR FEET? WELL, I UNDERSTAND IT IS QUITE SOON, BUT I ACTUALLY WOULD WANT THEM TO GET IT RIGHT, NOT TO DO SOMETHING HURRIEDLY. THAT NEGOTIATION WAS SET UP BY THE GOVERNMENT TO GET THE CASE OUT OF COURT BECAUSE IT WAS WINNING IN COURT, AND THEY SET UP THIS GROUP OF BUSINESSPEOPLE, UNIONS AND GOVERNMENT WHO NEGOTIATED THOSE PRINCIPLES TOGETHER AND WORKED THROUGH THE DIFFICULTIES, AND NOW CABINET'S SITTING ON IT. AND I REALLY THINK WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THAT QUESTION OF ` IS OUR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP COMMITTED TO VALUING WOMEN? AND I THINK THE ANSWER IS CLEARLY NO. ON THE OTHER HAND, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT LOW-PAID JOBS. WOMEN ARE ALSO UNDERREPRESENTED IN SENIOR JOBS, AREN'T THEY? FOR EXAMPLE, WOMEN MAKE UP ABOUT 60% OF EMPLOYEES AT LAW FIRMS ` NZ LAW FIRMS ` BUT ONLY 26% OF THEM ARE PARTNERS OR DIRECTORS. NONE OF OUR TOP 50 COMPANIES HAVE A WOMAN CEO. WHY? SO IT'S ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY. IT'S ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY OF OUR LEADERS IN THOSE ORGANISATIONS, AND TODAY WE DON'T HAVE TO REPORT ON ANY OF THOSE DIVERSITY OR EQUALITY STATS. SO WE NEED TO MAKE OUR LEADERS OF THOSE ORGANISATIONS ACCOUNTABLE FOR BEING TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT IS THE PLAN ` WHAT IS THE PLAN AROUND DIVERSITY INCLUSION, NOT ONLY OF WOMEN BUT OF ALL OF OUR AREAS OF DIVERSITY? SO THERE NEEDS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY, AND TODAY THERE ISN'T. HOW DO YOU GET THAT, JACKIE? BY MAKING TARGETS THAT ARE ENFORCEABLE. YOU COULD LOOK AT QUOTAS, WHICH I THINK WE ALL NEED TO HAVE A SERIOUS DEBATE ABOUT IN NZ. I JUST WANT TO SAY I LOOKED AT THE STATS FOR WOMEN ON STATE SECTOR BOARDS, WHICH IS 43%, AND THE STOCK-EXCHANGE-LISTED COMPANIES, AT 17% WOMEN, BUT I EXTRAPOLATED THOSE OUT, AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE BOTH OF THEM 15 YEARS BEFORE THEY GET TO EQUALITY ` 50% EACH. I MEAN, THAT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE, SO NOTHING IS HAPPENING QUICKLY, SO I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE THAT SERIOUS CONVERSATION ABOUT QUOTAS. AND I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY THAT AT THE GREENS WE'VE ALWAYS HAD A QUOTA IN PLACE FOR GENDER. WE HAVE A 50-50 BALANCED CAUCUS, AND IT WAS BECAUSE WE RECOGNISED THOSE BARRIERS TO WOMEN'S PARTICIPATION AND THAT WE WOULD BENEFIT FROM PUTTING THIS IN PLACE, AND WE HAVE. WE HAVE A REALLY STRONG TEAM, AND WOMEN ARE AT THE HEART OF IT. WELL, THE CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER, JUSTIN TRUDEAU, HAS A CABINET THAT IS 50-50 ` 50% WOMEN, 50% MEN. I MEAN, LABOUR WAS LAUGHED OUT OF TOWN WHEN IT KIND OF SUGGESTED SOMETHING SIMILAR, SO IS QUOTA REALLY THE ANSWER? I'VE THOUGHT LONG AND HARD OVER THIS, KNOWING THERE'D BE A BIG PUSHBACK IF I SAID THE WORD 'QUOTA' ` THAT Q WORD WHICH NEVER SHOULD BE UTTERED. BUT, QUITE FRANKLY, I WANT TO CHALLENGE ALL POLITICAL LEADERS NEXT YEAR IN THE LEAD-UP TO THE ELECTION THAT IF THEY FORM PART OF GOVERNMENT, THEY NEED TO COMMIT TO A GENDER-BALANCED CABINET. AND IF ANYTHING, THE CABINET IS THE ULTIMATE BOARD IN NZ, AND IF WOMEN ON BOARDS IS NOW BEING ACCEPTED AS GOOD FOR BUSINESS, IT BLOODY IS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR NZ. SO I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THESE SORT OF MEASLY, 'OH, WE APPOINT ON MERIT,' OR, 'IF WE USE QUOTAS`' SO WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT, THOUGH? 'WE APPOINT ON MERIT,' IT'S A FAIR POINT, ISN'T IT? NO, OTHER STATEMENTS ARE LIKE, 'OH, IF YOU BRING WOMEN IN, YOU'LL GET INFERIOR WOMEN.' EVEN WOMEN SAY, UNFORTUNATELY, 'I WANT TO BE THERE ON MY MERIT, NOT ON A QUOTA.' UNFORTUNATELY, THERE'S HUGE BIAS IN EXERTING THOSE SORTS OF COMMENTS. THEY'VE GOT TO BE CHALLENGED AND SAY, 'WELL, WHICH DEFINITION AND WHOSE DEFINITION OF MERIT ARE YOU USING?' IT'S USUALLY THE DOMINANT CULTURE, I.E. MEN, SO THEY NEED TO UNDERSTAND THOSE POWERFUL FORCES OF BIAS. I WOULD COMPARE, SAY, THE GREENS, WHERE WE HAVE THAT... I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO SAY THAT THE WOMEN IN OUR CAUCUS CONTRIBUTE LESS THAN THE MEN, AND I WOULD ALSO LOOK AT NATIONAL AND THE FACT THAT THEY'RE STRUGGLING TO GET 25% OF WOMEN IN THEIR CAUCUS AND` THEY'VE GOT 35% WOMEN MAKE-UP IN CABINET. YEAH, BUT IN THEIR CAUCUS, THEY'RE STRUGGLING FOR 25%. AND THE PICTURE IN THE PAPER AFTER THE LAST THREE ELECTIONS HAS BEEN JOHN KEY AND HIS KEY ADVISORS ` A ROOM FULL OF OLD WHITE MEN. SO IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO WHY WOULD A TALENTED, IMPASSIONED WOMAN GO TO THE NATIONAL PARTY? SO I JUST WANT TO QUICKLY, BEFORE WE MOVE ON, JACKIE, QUOTAS ` YOU SAY, 'MM, NASTY Q WORD,' AND YOU TALK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY, SO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE QUOTAS AT SOME POINT? I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE THAT DEBATE. I MEAN, WE'VE ASKED NICELY. WE'VE IMPLORED. WE'VE PLEADED. NOT MUCH IS HAPPENING. WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION IN PARLIAMENT HAS ACTUALLY GONE STATIC, AND I GO BACK TO THE POINT OF WOMEN IN THE CURRENT CABINET ` 35%. THAT'S SEVEN OUT OF 20. JOHN KEY JUST HAS TO BRING THREE MORE WOMEN IN AND HE'S GOT A GENDER-BALANCED CABINET. THAT'S NOT TOO HARD. IT'S NOT HARD. AND I WOULD SAY THAT HE NEEDS TO LOOK FURTHER INTO HIS CAUCUS. ALL WOMEN I FEEL THAT GET TO PARLIAMENT ARE ABSOLUTELY CAPABLE OF BEING A MINISTER, WHATEVER PARTY, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN UP AGAINST IT TO GET THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE THING IS ` ARE THEY A STEREOTYPE OF POLITICIAN? NO, PROBABLY NOT, BUT THEY BRING A DIFFERENT SKILL SET AND THEY'LL ADD VALUE TO THE TEAM. AND HE'S GOT THOSE WOMEN; HE JUST NEEDS TO GET OVER HIS OWN BIASES AND SELECT THEM. WHAT ABOUT PRIVATE SECTOR, RACHEL? WHAT ABOUT COMPANIES? YOU TALK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY, SO SHOULD THERE BE QUOTAS FOR PRIVATE COMPANIES? YEAH, SO I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN IN BOTH WAYS, WHERE WE SET QUOTAS, BUT I ALSO THINK WE NEED TO GIVE TIME AND SPACE FOR SOME OF OUR LEADERS TO COME UP WITH WHAT IS THEIR PLAN? YEAH, SO GIVE THEM SOME TIME AND SPACE. IF THEY DON'T LIVE UP TO THAT, AND THAT'S TIME IMPERATIVE, THEN WE START TO ENFORCE. SO THERE ARE GREAT COMPANIES. I MEAN, ADRIAN ORR, CEO OF SUPERFUND, HE'S GOT A GREAT PHILOSOPHY, A GREAT CULTURE, AND HE IS EMPOWERING WOMEN. BUT ALL OF YOU HAVE SAID, 'WE HAVE BEEN ASKING NICELY AND NOTHING HAS CHANGED,' SO THEREFORE SAY AGAIN, DO WE NEED TO ENFORCE SOMETHING? WE DO NEED TO ENFORCE SOMETHING. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SAYING, YES. WELL, THE GOVERNMENT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST EMPLOYERS, WHICH IS WHAT YOU RAISED, JAN. 60% OF PUBLIC SERVANTS ARE FEMALE. 39% OF CHIEF EXECUTIVE ROLES ARE FILLED BY WOMEN IN THAT SECTOR. SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE LEADING BY EXAMPLE ON QUOTA THERE? I MEAN, FOR ME I THINK THIS IS WHAT WE EXPECT IN TERMS OF LEADERSHIP, AND GOING BACK TO THAT POINT AROUND THAT WOMEN'S FRUSTRATION THAT I'M SENSING A BUILD-UP OF, AND IT'S LIKE, ACTUALLY, OUR LEADERS ARE LAGGING BEHIND OUR EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT WE WANT FOR OUR SOCIETY. AND I THINK OUR GOVERNMENT SHOULD CATCH UP, SO, YES. THE PUBLIC SERVICE, I THINK, IS ACTUALLY LEADING. FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS YEAR THEY PUBLISHED THE PAY GENDER GAPS BY DEPARTMENT. THAT'S HISTORIC. THAT IS HUGE. AND NOW CEOS HAVE TO ACTUALLY IN THEIR FOUR-YEAR PLAN STATE HOW THEY'RE GOING TO ADDRESS THAT GAP, SO THAT'S GREAT. AND THOSE GAPS WERE HORRENDOUS IN SOME DEPARTMENTS. SO 39% IN DEFENCE, 27% IN CROWN LAW. IN TERMS OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR, HOW DO YOU THINK YOU GET ACCOUNTABILITY, JACKIE? YOU'VE GOT AN IDEA AROUND AN INITIATIVE FOR THAT, DON'T YOU, WITH PRIVATE COMPANIES? YEAH, I LIKE TO FOLLOW THE UK LEGISLATION WHICH IS COMING IN NEXT YEAR WHERE EVERY COMPANY WITH MORE THAN 250 EMPLOYEES NEEDS TO PUBLISH THEIR PAY GENDER GAP AND BONUS GAP. TRANSPARENCY. AND THEY TRIED THE VOLUNTARY APPROACH, DIDN'T WORK, SO THEY'RE BRINGING IN LEGISLATION. THERE'S GOING TO BE A PENALTY IF THEY DON'T COMPLY OF ABOUT �5000. IT'S STILL TOO LOW. BUT JUST ACROSS IN AUSTRALIA, THEY'VE BEEN DOING THAT SINCE 2012 FOR COMPANIES OVER 100, SO THIS IS NOT LIKE A WEIRD IDEA. SO THAT'S WHAT YOU'D WANT? A LAW MAKING THEM REPORT AND IF YOU DON'T REPORT, YOU GET PINGED FOR IT? YEAH, AND TARGET THE BIG COMPANIES, BECAUSE MOST OF THE WORKFORCE IS EMPLOYED BY THE BIGGER COMPANIES, AND IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GET THAT VALUE AND INFLUENCE AND OBVIOUSLY GET THE MOST IMPROVED BENEFIT, YOU WANT TO TARGET THE BIG BUSINESSES FIRST. SO COMPANIES OVER 250 EMPLOYEES, RIGHT? TO BEGIN WITH AND THEN BRING IT DOWN TO 100. WE'VE GOT 2000 OF THOSE IN NZ. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE WOMEN'S MINISTER. IT'S A POSITION OUTSIDE CABINET. IS THIS A SIGN, RACHEL, THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T THINK IT'S A PRIORITY? YEAH, I THINK IT IS. I THINK IT IS. AND I'VE MET LOUISE, AND I THINK SHE DOES A GREAT JOB. I THINK IT IS ABOUT INCLUSIVENESS, SO SHE DOES NEED TO BE PART OF CABINET, YES. THAT'S MY... WELL, THERE ARE THREE WOMEN MINISTERS OUT OF CABINET ` NICKY WAGNER, JO GOODHEW AND LOUISE. ALL GOOD WOMEN. BRING THEM IN; YOU'VE GOT A GENDER-BALANCED CABINET. WHEN SHE BECAME MINISTER FOR WOMEN, SHE SAID SHE WASN'T A FEMINIST BECAUSE SHE WASN'T INTERESTED IN BEING A FLAG-WAVER. JAN, DO WE NEED A FEMINIST IN THAT JOB? AGAIN, I'VE GOT SAY I THINK WE DO, PARTICULARLY` I UNDERSTAND MAORI WOMEN WHO MAY NOT USE THE TERM 'FEMINIST' OR FOR WOMEN OF DIFFERENT CULTURES, IT MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT MEANING FOR THEM. BUT IF IT'S GOING TO BE A PAKEHA WOMAN, AND WE HAVE THAT TRADITION OF KATE SHEPPARD... ACTUALLY, I EXPECT OUR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP TO FOLLOW IN THAT PATHWAY IN A MORE INCLUSIVE WAY. BUT, YEAH, IT'S JUST THE FACT THAT SHE WOULDN'T STAND UP ON THE CHIEFS, SHE'S BEEN MISSING IN ACTION ON SO MANY OF OUR CULTURAL CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE SO CENTRAL TO OUR WELLBEING AS WOMEN. I EXPECT A WOMAN TO BE PART OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS. AND, HONESTLY, OUR POPULATION IS 4.5 MILLION. WE'RE NOT THE UK. WE HAVEN'T GOT A POPULATION OF 20 MILLION. WE'RE NOT A TANKER WHERE THINGS NEED TO TURN VERY SLOWLY. WE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE THINGS HAPPEN. WE CAN GET OUR ARMS AROUND THIS, AND WE SHOULD BE LEADING THE WORLD IN LEADERSHIP, ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN. WHAT WOULD KATE SHEPPARD SAY TODAY? SHE'D BE HORRIFIED. SHE'D BE HORRIFIED. JACKIE BLUE, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF HER DEFINITION OF FEMINISM ` FLAG-WAVING ` BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE FEMINISM SEEMS TO BE A BIT OF A DIRTY WORD THESE DAYS? IT IS, AND I ACTUALLY THINK, THOUGH, SHE DIDN'T DEFINE HERSELF AS A FEMINIST; THINGS SHE HAS SAID MEANS SHE ACTUALLY IS A FEMINIST AND SHE DOES SUPPORT WOMEN. I THINK SHE'S REALLY CONSTRAINED BY THE FACT SHE IS A JUNIOR MINISTER OUTSIDE CABINET IN A LARGELY MALE-DOMINATED CABINET AND CAUCUS. SO YOU`? I ALSO THINK IT'S WORTH NOTING THAT THE MINISTRY FOR WOMEN USED TO PLAY A REALLY KEY ROLE IN OUR SOCIETY IN LEADING DISCUSSION AND GREAT RESEARCH. IT IS NOW THE MOST POORLY FUNDED MINISTRY OF ALL OF THEM. THE ONLY ORGANISATION WITHIN GOVERNMENT THAT GETS LESS MONEY IS THE COMMISSIONER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, WHO HAS A MUCH MORE CONSTRAINED ROLE. SO, ACTUALLY, OUR EXPECTATIONS CAN'T BE VERY HIGH WHEN THAT'S WHAT THE GOVERNMENT'S DECIDED. BUT ESSENTIALLY YOU ALL THINK WE SHOULD HAVE QUOTAS, LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE MEANS TO MOVE THIS AHEAD? ABSOLUTELY. YEAH. I THINK WE REALLY HAVE TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION. HAVE A BIGGER CONVERSATION. ABSOLUTELY. YEAH, DEFINITELY. WELL, IT'S BEEN A GREAT CONVERSATION THIS MORNING. THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING ME. MUCH APPRECIATED. YOU'RE WELCOME. THANK YOU. THANKS. AS I SAID, THE MINISTER, LOUISE UPSTON, WOULDN'T COME ON THE PROGRAMME, SO WE ASKED HER WHAT SHE AND HER MINISTRY ARE DOING ON THESE ISSUES. SHE SAID WOMEN'S EMPLOYMENT IS AT ITS HIGHEST RATE EVER, AS IS THE PROPORTION OF WOMEN ON STATE-SECTOR BOARDS. SHE SAYS PUBLIC-SECTOR EMPLOYERS ARE NOW REQUIRED TO REPORT ON THEIR GENDER PAY GAPS AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO ADDRESS THEM AND THAT SHE'S PROUD OF WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE FOR NZ WOMEN. UP NEXT ` WE'RE IN FLORIDA TO CATCH UP ON THE US ELECTION. BUT FOR NOW, JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO ARE LOOKING WORRIED. BIG TROUBLE, PAUL. MIGHT HAVE TO PULL THE SHOW, MATE, SORRY. WHAT? WHY? WELL, MCCULLY ` HE'S GONNA SUE OVER WHAT YOU SAID LAST WEEK. COULD BE $20 MILLION, $30 MILLION. WELL, WHAT DID I SAY? WELL, THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW, BUT HIS LAWYERS, MACHIAVELLI AND CO, TOLD ME THEY'RE GONNA SUE. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT. CAN I SEE THE LETTER? THERE'S NOT LE` WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THINGS LIKE PROOF. WE'VE GOT TO ACT, PAUL. WELL, WHAT CAN WE DO, THEN? WE NEED TO PAY HIM OFF. WHAT, LIKE A BRIBE? NICE. 'LIKE' A BRIBE. EXACTLY. NO, I'VE MANAGED TO BROKER A DEAL. I CAN GET HIM TO CALL THE SHEEPDOGS OFF WE CAN JUST GET HIM AN AGRI-HUB. WHAT'S AN AGRI-HUB? WELL, IT'S WHAT IT SAYS, PAUL. IT'S A HUB WHERE PEOPLE AGREE. SO AN AGREE-HUB. SO JUST AGREE WITH ME. OH, ALL` ALL RIGHT. I AGREE. GREAT. GIVE ME $11.5 MILLION. WHAT? HOW MUCH? ARE WE IN AGREE-HUB OR NOT? DID WE JUST NOT AGREE TO BE A HUB, AN AGREE-HUB? YES, ALL RIGHT, I SUPPOSE SO. COME ON, THEN. IS CREDIT CARD ALL RIGHT? YEAH, CREDIT CARD'S FINE. I JUST SAVED YOU $20 MILLION. THANK YOU. YOU'RE WELCOME. OH, YOU REALISE THERE'S A 1.5% TRANSACTION FEE ON THAT? IT'S ALL RIGHT. IT'S MY WIFE'S. OH, GOOD. WELCOME BACK. ONCE AGAIN, FLORIDA IS SHAPING UP TO BE A KEY BATTLEGROUND STATE IN NEXT WEEK'S AMERICAN ELECTION. PART OF WHAT COULD HELP SWING IT FOR DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, HILLARY CLINTON, IS A GROWING TURNOUT AMONG LATINO VOTERS, EXPECTED TO 3% TO 5% UP FROM LAST ELECTION'S 11.2 MILLION. DAKAR LANZINO IS A DEMOCRAT AND A LATINO COMMENTATOR. HE JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON. THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. HOW MUCH INFLUENCE DOES THIS PARTICULAR GROUP OF VOTERS, LATINO VOTERS, HAVE, DO YOU THINK? THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. AND YES, THE LATINO VOTE, WE LIKE TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO ROAD TO THE WHITE HOUSE WITHOUT THE LATINO VOTE, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF THE HIGH CONCENTRATION OF LATINOS IN STATES LIKE FLORIDA AND ARIZONA AND COLORADO AND NEVADA, AND THE TURNOUT OF THIS COMMUNITY IS GOING TO DETERMINE WHO'S GOING TO WIN THESE STATES. WE'VE ALREADY SEEN RECORD-BREAKING NUMBERS COMING OUT OF ALL OF THESE STATES DURING THE EARLY VOTING PERIODS OF THE ELECTION, AND IT'S GOING TO BE VERY VERY CLOSE. SO EVERY CANDIDATE IS FOCUSED ON TURNING OUT THEIR VOTERS, AND TYPICALLY IN THESE ELECTIONS, THE HIGHER THE TURNOUT, IT BENEFITS REPUBLICANS AND` THE LOWER THE TURNOUT, IT BENEFITS REPUBLICANS. THE HIGHER THE TURNOUT BENEFITS THE DEMOCRATS. RIGHT. SO, TELL ME, WHO ARE THEY FAVOURING? DO THE POLLS GIVE YOU AN INDICATION OF WHICH WAY THE LATINO VOTE IS LIKELY TO GO? SURE. LIKE YOU SAID, MOST OF THE POLLS THAT ARE OUT NOWADAYS, THEY HAVE BEEN UNDER-REPRESENTING LATINOS. BUT ONE OF THE FIRMS OUT OF HERE, LATINO DECISIONS, CAME OUT WITH THEIR NATIONAL POLL THIS WEEK, WHICH SHOWED THAT LATINOS ARE GOING TO VOTE. BETWEEN 13 MILLION AND 15 MILLION LATINOS ARE GOING TO COME OUT AND VOTE. THAT'S A 3% TO 5% INCREASE FROM THE 2012 ELECTION. IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, WHICH HAS THE FOURTH HIGHEST AMOUNT OF POPULATION OF LATINOS IN THE COUNTRY, IT'S ALSO THE LEAST DEMOCRATIC-LEANING LATINOS IN THE COUNTRY. SO YOU'VE SEEN HILLARY CLINTON THIS ENTIRE WEEK CAMPAIGNING ON THE STAGE; SHE WAS THERE FOR FIVE DAYS. AND BASICALLY WHAT THE POLLS ARE TELLING US IS THAT 79% OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO COME OUT TO VOTE` THE LATINOS THAT ARE GOING TO COME OUT TO VOTE WILL VOTE FOR HILLARY CLINTON, 18% WILL GO TO DONALD TRUMP, AND 3% WILL GO THE OTHER THREE CANDIDATES, AND THAT'S ABOUT WHAT IS PROJECTED. IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA SPECIFICALLY THIS WEEK, HILLARY CLINTON HIT THE SAME LEVEL OF SUPPORT THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD IN 2012, WHICH IS 60%. SO THIS SPELLS A LOT OF TROUBLE FOR REPUBLICANS AND DONALD TRUMP. ESPECIALLY IF YOU LOOK AT ARIZONA AS WELL, THE AMOUNT OF LATINOS THAT HAVE COME OUT TO VOTE HAS BEEN RECORD-BREAKING. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT FLORIDA, THOUGH, THAT'S STILL POTENTIALLY AROUND 20% OF LATINOS WHO COULD BE VOTING FOR DONALD TRUMP. WHAT'S THEIR ATTRACTION, GIVEN ALL THE KIND OF RACIST COMMENTARY AND THINGS THAT HE'S SAID DURING THE COURSE OF THE CAMPAIGN? YEAH, WELL, THE LATINO COMMUNITY, WE COME FROM DIFFERENT PLACES, DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, DIFFERENT SOCIO-ECONOMIC STATUS, AND IT'S THIS DIVERSITY THAT IS REFLECTED IN THESE POLLS. BUT WHAT IS REFLECTED IS THAT MORE LATINOS THAN NOT ARE REPUDIATING DONALD TRUMP AND VOTING FOR HILLARY CLINTON, SO EVEN 20% IS A VERY VERY LOW SEGMENT OF THE LATINO POPULATION TO HAVE. IN 2004, PRESIDENT BUSH GOT 40% OF THE LATINO VOTE, AND THAT IS THE THRESHOLD THAT REPUBLICANS SHOULD ALWAYS AIM FOR. WHEN THEY CAME OUT WITH THEIR 'AUTOPSY REPORT' ON HOW TO BRING MORE LATINOS INTO THE FOLD IN 2012, THEY HAD ALL THESE RECOMMENDATIONS ON HOW THEY WERE GOING TO BRING LATINOS IN AND MAKE SURE THEY WERE CATERING TO THE ISSUES. BUT ALL OF THAT WAS THROWN OUT THE MINUTE DONALD TRUMP ENTERED THE RACE AND WITH THAT, ALL HOPE OF WINNING THE WHITE HOUSE. SO, TELL ME, THEN, HILLARY CLINTON, SHE IS DOMINATING THE POLLS IN TERMS OF THE LATINO VOTE. IS SHE ACTUALLY OFFERING THAT SECTOR OF VOTERS ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR, OR IS SHE TAKING THAT VOTE FOR GRANTED? WELL, LIKE I SAID, LATINOS COME FROM ALL PLACES, AND THE ISSUES THAT LATINOS CARE ABOUT ARE THE ECONOMY, HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION, WITH TERRORISM AND IMMIGRATION REFORM BEING HIGH UP THERE. SHE HAS PROMISED WITHIN THE FIRST HUNDRED DAYS THAT SHE IS GOING TO PASS A COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM WITH A PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP. SHE'S GOING TO INTRODUCE IT IN THE FIRST HUNDRED DAYS, SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT REALLY CATERS TO THE LATINO COMMUNITY AND A STARK DIFFERENCE FROM THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE, WHO HAS PROMISED HE'S GOING TO HAVE MASSIVE DEPORTATION FORCES, AND HE'S NOT WORRIED ABOUT SPLITTING FAMILIES OR ANY OF THAT. SO THE RHETORIC AND THE WAY THAT LATINOS ARE SPOKEN ABOUT IN THIS ELECTION HAS DEFINITELY ATTRACTED THEM TO HILLARY CLINTON MORE THAN DONALD TRUMP. SO, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE POTENTIAL FOR VIOLENCE IF TRUMP LOSES. DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN? I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK EVERY YEAR` EVERY ELECTION YEAR, WE HAVE A SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION THAT IS UNHAPPY WITH THE WAY THAT THINGS ARE. I KNOW IN THE LAST TWO ELECTIONS, WITH THE ELECTION OF THE LAST AFRICAN AMERICAN PRESIDENT, THIS WAS A BIG PROBLEM AND A CONCERN. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, AMERICA WILL COME TOGETHER AND THEY WILL ACCEPT THE RESULTS BECAUSE THAT IS THE KIND OF COUNTRY THAT WE ARE. DAKAR LANZINO, THANKS FOR JOINING US FROM WASHINGTON DC. MUCH APPRECIATED. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME. WELL, YOU CAN WATCH THE ELECTION RESULTS COME IN ON THE NEWSHUB ELECTION SPECIAL BETWEEN 5PM AND 6PM ON WEDNESDAY. AND TUNE IN THIS TIME NEXT WEEK WHEN PADDY GOWER AND I WILL WRAP UP AN HISTORIC ELECTION FROM WASHINGTON DC. WELL, AFTER THE BREAK, WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR PANEL. DO STICK AROUND. WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL, FORMER TV3 POLITICAL EDITOR, JANE YOUNG; RADIO LIVE'S ALI MAU; AND NEWSHUB POLITICAL REPORTER JENNA LYNCH. WELCOME TO YOU ALL. HEARING FROM ANDREW LITTLE THIS MORNING, THEY'VE GOT THEIR BIG CONFERENCE OVER THE WEEKEND. THEY'RE PROPOSING A 'SKILLS SHORTAGE LEVY, AS THEY'VE CALLED IT. IT'S JUST AN IDEA. BUT WHAT'D YOU THINK OF IT? THIS IS THE PROBLEM WHEN THEY PUT OUT THESE IDEAS ` THEY DON'T HAVE ANY SUBSTANCE TO THEM. THEY SEEM TO PUT THEM OUT THERE, SEE THE PUBLIC OPINION AND THEN JUDGE IT, AND THEY'VE HAD A COUPLE OF STOP-GO'S WITH THE` WE'VE HAD THE UBI EARLIER IN THE YEAR ` THE UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME. THEY'VE DONE IT WITH THE, UM... REFERENDUM ON MARIJUANA. YEAH. THE INDIAN CHEFS THING. IT KIND OF NEEDS A LITTLE BIT MORE SUBSTANCE TO IT. SO YOU THINK HE'S FLOATING HIS IDEAS BEFORE HE'S ACTUALLY FORMULATED THEM? THAT'S RIGHT. AND THEY NEED TO DEVELOP THE POLICY FIRST. THEY'RE CERTAINLY NOT THE FIRST TO FLOAT IDEAS AND GET THE PUBLIC TO REACT AND THEN TWEAK IT THIS WAY AND THAT WAY. BECAUSE WHAT HE WAS SAYING WAS THERE WAS SO MUCH IN THAT DOCUMENT, BUT IT'S NOT RELEASED TO ALL OF US. AND SO` NOT YET ANYWAY. AND THAT CAN KIND OF FLOAT LIKE A MINE WAITING TO BLOW UP LATER ON, I SUPPOSE. BUT THE BASIC THINKING AROUND IT IS PRETTY SOUND. THOSE EMPLOYERS WHO ARE PUTTING MONEY INTO TRAINING ARE MAKING THEIR CONTRIBUTION. THOSE WHO REFUSE TO DO THAT OR CAN'T DO THAT OR DON'T DO THAT, THIS LEVY WOULD BE A WAY OF THEM MAKING A CONTRIBUTION. SO LONG AS IT'S DISTRIBUTED IN A SENSIBLE MANNER. BUT HE COULDN'T GIVE US DETAILS OF HOW MUCH THEY MIGHT BE LEVIED AND EXACTLY WHO WOULD BE LEVIED. HE SAYS BUSINESSES, BUT IN PRACTICAL TERMS, HOW THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AND WHERE EXACTLY IT'S GOING TO GO. BUT DO YOU THINK THAT THEY'VE WORKED THAT OUT YET? THAT SEEMED TO BE THE IDEA, THAT, OK, THIS IS THE START OF A PROCESS, PERHAPS, AND THERE'S A LOT THAT GOES WITH IT TO MAKE A POLICY. SO AT THE MOMENT, IT'S WHAT` IT'S LIKE A DISCUSSION DOCUMENT, PERHAPS. THE OTHER THING ABOUT IT, I SUPPOSE, JENNA, IS THAT THE NUMBER FO THE JOBS THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT WHERE THERE ARE SHORTAGES, THEY ARE ON A LIST TO BRING WORKERS IN FROM OVERSEAS. SO WILL, IN SOME WAY, THIS BE PERCEIVED AS A TAX ON BRINGING IN IMMIGRANT WORKERS? I THINK THAT'S REALLY DANGEROUS IF IT DOES GO DOWN THAT ROAD, BECAUSE IF PEOPLE JUST STRAIGHT UP REFUSE TO PAY THAT TAX, THOSE SKILL SHORTAGE LISTS HAVE THINGS LIKE DOCTORS, AND WE'VE ALREADY GOT DOCTORS WORKING 16-HOUR SHIFTS. SO IF YOU PREVENT PEOPLE FROM BRINGING IN THOSE IMMIGRANTS, THEN WHAT SORT OF SITUATION WILL WE HAVE? IF YOU PUT UP BARRIERS. YEAH. IT'S ALSO QUITE DANGEROUS GROUND FOR LABOUR, BECAUSE THEY'VE MADE SOME MISSTEPS IN THIS AREA GOING RIGHT BACK TO LAST OCTOBER ` WAS IT OCTOBER? ` AND THEIR KORERO AROUND CHINESE NAMES. CHINESE NAMES AND HOUSING. YEAH. SO IT'S POTENTIALLY PROBLEMATIC FOR LABOUR, PARTICULARLY. AND DOES IT ALSO DRAG THEM INTO THE IMMIGRATION DEBATE RATHER THAN BEING IN AN EMPLOYMENT DEBATE? BECAUSE THAT IMMIGRATION DEBATE JUST NEVER SEEMS TO FINISH. EVERY TIME SOMEONE'S ON IT, IT'S LIKE, 'WELL, WE'VE ALREADY GOT TRUCK DRIVERS. WE'VE ALREADY GOT CHEFS,' AND THIS, THAT SORT OF THING. SO IT'S GOING TO BE A FINE LINE TO ACTUALLY MAKE SURE THAT IT'S AN EMPLOYMENT POLICY AS OPPOSED TO AN IMMIGRATION POLICY. YEAH, AND WE TALKED ABOUT MT ROSKILL. OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE CAMPAIGNING IN ERNEST THERE IN PHIL GOFF'S OLD ELECTORATE. DID HE SOUND OVERLY CONFIDENT, JANE, ABOUT THAT? NO. I THINK IT WOULD BE WEIRD IF HE SOUNDED PESSIMISTIC ABOUT IT. I THINK THAT THEY'RE TREATING IT AS A VERY SERIOUS CHALLENGE THAT THEY'VE REALLY GOT TO GET OUT THERE AND MARKET. IT'S NOT JUST GOING TO COME TO THEM BECAUSE IT WAS PHIL GOFF'S SEAT. HOW WORRIED WILL THEY BE ABOUT THAT? BECAUSE PHIL GOFF DID GET AN 8000-VOTE MAJORITY. SO PEOPLE WERE CLEARLY VOTING FOR AN INDIVIDUAL. WELL, THE PARTY, THEY LOST THE PARTY VOTE THERE. BUT THAT HAPPENS IN A LOT OF SEATS, AND YOU DO GET THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO DO HAVE THOSE INCREDIBLY WIDE MARGINS. AND THEY DON'T NECESSARILY ALWAYS TRANSFER TO THE NEXT PERSON, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER THEY'RE IN THE PARTY BECAUSE THE PERSONALITY HAS BEEN THERE FOR SO LONG. AND PHIL GOFF WAS AN AMAZING LOCAL MP. YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY KNEW HIM. HE WAS JUST A REAL PEOPLE PERSON, AND THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY TRANSFER. DO YOU THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT IT, JENNA? I THINK THEY ARE WORRIED. I THINK THAT THEY DON'T HAVE THAT PERSONALITY ` NO PARTY HAS THAT PERSONALITY PERSON IN THE BY-ELECTION. AND IT IS PARTICULARLY WORRYING FOR THEM, BECAUSE IF THEY LOSE IT, THEN IT TIPS THE BALANCE BACK IN NATIONAL'S FAVOUR. SO IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT BY-ELECTION FOR THEM TO WIN. LET'S MOVE ON TO THE DISCUSSION WE HAD AROUND WOMEN'S PAY RATES. WHY DO YOU GUYS THINK THAT WE'RE FAILING IN CLOSING THIS GENDER GAP IN TERMS OF PAY? BECAUSE WE'RE NOT IN CHARGE. LAUGHTER TO THE POINT. I THINK THAT THE CONCENTRATION ON WHAT CAN WE DO AT PARTY-POLITICAL GOVERNMENT LEVEL, I UNDERSTAND IT, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BE WHAT YOU CAN'T SEE; YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF ARGUMENT THAT WE NEED TO LEAP FROM THE TOP. BUT THERE'S NEVER ANY PUSH WITH PRACTICAL STUFF FROM UNDERNEATH. FOR EXAMPLE, IF WE WERE IN CHARGE, I'D SUGGEST SALARY ORDERS IN EVERY COMPANY. I WOULD SUGGEST WE RUN FREE PAY NEGOTIATION WORKSHOPS FOR WOMEN. BECAUSE THEY START TO LAG BEHIND FROM EARLY ON IN THEIR CAREERS FROM A COUPLE OF YEARS OUT OF UNIVERSITY, AND WE DON'T SUPPORT THEM TO CATCH UP IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. SO HAVING` BEING ABLE TO SEE WOMEN AT THE TOP, THAT'S FINE, BUT WHAT'S THE PRACTICAL STUFF THAT'S COMING IN FROM UNDERNEATH? THERE'S ANOTHER REALLY INTERESTING THING ABOUT THIS, AND I'VE HAD VERY RECENT EXPERIENCE OF IT ` WHEN YOU'RE APPLYING FOR JOBS, FOR EXAMPLE. AND SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID TO ME` OH, A GUY LOOKS AT IT AND HE SAYS, 'OH YEAH, I CAN DO THAT, CAN DO THAT, CAN DO THAT,' AND WOMEN GO, '(GASPS) OH MY GOODNESS, I CAN'T DO THAT ONE THING.' AND THAT'S THE WAY` I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS. WE'VE GOT TO GET THAT OUT OF US, OUT OF OUR SYSTEM. PUTTING UP BARRIERS. > YEAH. AND THE OTHER THING TOO, WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE, LOOK AT WHAT JUSTIN TRUDEAU DID WHEN HE CAME INTO CANADA LAST YEAR. HE'S 50/50, HE SAID, IN TERMS OF HIS CABINET. AND HE WAS ASKED WHY, AND HE SAID, 'BECAUSE IT'S 2015.' A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THIS IS A HISTORICAL ISSUE AND IT DOESN'T APPLY ANY MORE. TWO WEEKS AGO, I TALKED TO A WOMAN WHO IS KIND OF MIDDLE MANAGEMENT AT A VERY FAMOUS NZ COMPANY, A COMPANY WE'RE ALL EXTREMELY PROUD OF. SHE ONLY FOUND OUT WHEN HER BOSS LEFT AND THEY WERE HAVING DRINKS AND HE WAS HALF-CUT, HE TOLD HER THAT A MAN THAT WAS BROUGHT IN TO WORK THE SAME JOB AS HER, SO ALONGSIDE HER WITH LESS EXPERIENCE, BROUGHT IN AFTER HER, WAS BEING PAID 10% MORE. AND WHEN SHE WENT TO THE NEW BOSS AND SAID, 'THIS ISN'T FAIR,' THE ATTITUDE WAS, 'UH, SO I'M SORRY, WHY IS SHE ASKING FOR MORE MONEY?' SO I THINK THERE'S UNCONSCIOUS BIAS WHICH I HOPE WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THAT'S NOT BEING ADDRESSED. AND THERE'S OUT-AND-OUT PREJUDICE, SOME WOULD ARGUE. JENNA, HAVE THE`? THE POINT ABOUT THE 50/50 CAUCUS` CABINET, RATHER, BRINGING IN WOMEN, JOHN KEY AND JACKIE BLUE, HE JUST NEEDS TO BRING IN THREE MORE WOMEN AND HE'S GOT THE DEPTH. IS HE BRINGING UP THE WOMEN IN HIS PARTY? WELL, I DON'T THINK HE IS BRINGING UP THE WOMEN IN HIS PARTY. HE'S GOT A BIG CHALLENGE AHEAD, OBVIOUSLY ` HE'S LOSING HEKIA; NIKKI KAYE IS OUT AT THE MOMENT ` AND THE TALENT POOL FURTHER DOWN IN THE WOMEN IN THE NATIONAL PARTY, THEY'RE NOT REALLY COMING THROUGH. SO HE'S GONNA FACE A BIG CHALLENGE THERE, BUT EQUALLY, I MEAN, THE OTHER SIDE WOULD FACE THE SAME CHALLENGE. YOU'VE GOT A COUPLE OF REALLY WELL-PERFORMING WOMEN IN THE LABOUR PARTY, AND THEN THE FRONT BENCH WOULD LOOK THE SAME` PALE, STALE AND MALE. LEAN. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE FOR THE MOMENT. WE'LL BE BACK AFTER THE BREAK WITH SOME OF WHAT WILL BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH THE NATION AND OUR PANEL. ONE OF THE OTHER INTERESTING THINGS THAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK IS GARETH MORGAN'S THROWN HIS HAT INTO THE RING. HE'S SETTING UP` WELL, SET UP A POLITICAL PARTY. HAS HE GOT A CHANCE? GETTING 5% IS PRETTY TOUGH, ISN'T IT, JANE? WELL, FIRST OF ALL, HE'S GOTTA GET 500 PEOPLE TO SIGN UP TO ESTABLISH HIMSELF AS A PARTY, UM, AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO WATCH GARETH MORGAN OVER THE YEARS KNOW THAT HE'S A SERIOUS THINKER. HE'S A SERIOUS PERSON. HE'S GOT GREAT, UH, PHILOSOPHY ON VARIOUS THINGS, AS HE SAID IN HIS LITTLE ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT THINGS LIKE EQUALITY, LIKE ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY AND THAT SORT OF THING, BUT, YOU KNOW, (SIGHS) AS YOU SAID, TO GET 5% IS HUGE. HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY WANT TO HAVE ANY SITTING` ANY ELECTORAL CANDIDATES. HE WANTS TO HAVE LIST ONLY, AND, YOU KNOW, TO SET UP A PARTY, YOU'VE GOTTA HAVE A LOT MORE THAN JUST A BASE OF GOOD POLICIES. I MEAN, THERE'S GOTTA BE A CHARISMA ELEMENT TO IT. YUP. UM, THERE'S GOT TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE` YOU'VE GOTTA WIN OVER PEOPLE WHO WOULDN'T NECESSARILY ALREADY KNOW YOU. AND HE HAS THIS` I MEAN, I LOOKED AT SOME OF THE COMMENTS WHEN HE LAUNCHED THE SITE YESTERDAY, AND THERE'S` YOU KNOW, THERE'S THIS WHOLE CAT THING. SOME PEOPLE LOVE CATS. AND SO WHILE YOU COULD SAY HE'S THE CAT-ALYST FOR A NEW PARTY, IT'S LIKE, IS HE GOING TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO WIN OVER PEOPLE WHO HAVE CATS? JENNA, WHAT DO YOU RECKON ABOUT THE` UH, NATIONAL AND LABOUR? WILL THEY BE NERVOUS ABOUT THIS AT ALL? I THINK ALL OF THEM SHOULD BE NERVOUS ABOUT IT. I MEAN, IT'S THE ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT VOTE, AND ALSO, HE'S GOT A PRETTY SOUND` OBVIOUSLY, SOUND ECONOMIC MIND, UH, BUT HE'S GOT THAT GREEN, SO` SO IN THE NATS, THAT BLUE-GREEN VOTE COULD BE HIS, AND OBVIOUSLY ON THE OTHER SIDE, ALL OF THOSE SOCIAL ISSUES HE'S REALLY HOT ON, HE COULD TAKE A LOT FROM THE LEFT. WHO DO YOU THINK HE'LL APPEAL TO, ALI? I UNDERSTAND THE SCEPTICISM. WELL, HE PROBABLY APPEALS TO PEOPLE LIKE ME. UM, I'D VOTE FOR HIM. UM, AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR SCEPTICISM, BUT IF THERE'S ONE THING WE KNOW FROM THE LAST YEAR IN INTERNATIONAL POLITICS IS THAT WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, REALLY. I MEAN, IF YOU CAN HAVE A TRUMP POTENTIAL PRESIDENCY, UH, THEN YOU CAN CERTAINLY HAVE A GARETH MORGAN PARTY IN THE NZ PARLIAMENT, AND I THINK THE TIMING IS PROBABLY PERFECT, BECAUSE HE IS, UH` HE'S LAUNCHED IT` HE WILL RIDE THE WAVE, POTENTIALLY, OF INTERNATIONAL DISSATISFACTION` WITH VOTER DISSATISFACTION WITH THE POLITICAL ELITE. THAT'S WHAT` THAT'S THE KIND OF ANGLE HE'S GOING FOR. OH, I THINK THAT'S GIVING IT TOO MUCH CREDIT. I MEAN, I DON'T THINK THAT` TRUMP IS AN ENTERTAINER, AND THAT'S` AND HE'S GOT A BASE FROM WHICH HE'S GONE, AND HE'S GRABBED PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT TO BE TOLD THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING, COS HE'S GONNA SORT IT ALL OUT, AND I DON'T THINK` I DON'T THINK THAT GARETH MORGAN HAS THAT, BUT I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD GIVE IT TOO MUCH` TOO MUCH THOUGHT AT THE MOMENT, BECAUSE IT'S ONE PERSON, AND ALTHOUGH HE'S A VERY WELL-KNOWN PERSON PUTTING THEIR HAND UP, THERE'S GONNA BE POSSIBLY A LOT OF PEOPLE BY THE NEXT, YOU KNOW` WHO'S TO STOP SOMEBODY ELSE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE RIGHT, ALI, IN THAT THERE IS A FEELING WITH THE NZ ELECTORATE THAT WE ACTUALLY DON'T LIKE THE ESTABLISHMENT? IF THAT DOES TRANSFER THROUGH, THERE MIGHT BE MORE. WELL, SPEAKING OF TRUMP, LET'S TOUCH ON THE AMERICAN ELECTIONS HERE. IF CLINTON MAKES IT TO THE WHITE HOUSE, SOME COMMENTATORS HAVE SAID, 'BRACE FOR FOUR TO EIGHT YEARS OF MISOGYNY.' DO YOU AGREE THAT THAT'S WHAT SHE'S GONNA BE FACED WITH IF SHE DOES GET OVER THE LINE? I THINK SHE'LL BE READY FOR THAT, YEAH. UM, I THINK THE AMERICAN VOTERS STILL SEE THE PRESIDENCY AS A MASCULINE POSITION, SO SHE'S GOT A REAL BATTLE AHEAD OF HER, UH, AND I` I HOPE SHE'S IN THERE READY FOR BATTLE IN JANUARY. WHAT DO YOU THINK, JENNA? I MEAN, WHEN YOU` WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THE CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON OVER THERE, SHE'S ALREADY FACING IT. SHE DOESN'T NEED TO GET INTO THE WHITE HOUSE TO FACE ALL OF THAT MISOGYNY. IT'S HAPPENING TO HER RIGHT NOW, SO ABSOLUTELY, SHE'S GOTTA BE READY FOR IT, YEAH. JANE, UH` SHE'S A TOUGH COOKIE. YEAH. YEAH, SHE IS. THE COMMENTATOR WE HAD ON WAS SAYING IT WAS GOING TO BE CLOSER THAN PEOPLE THINK. DO YOU AGREE? I WOULD SAY THAT SHE'S GOING TO WIN BY ABOUT 2% RO SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I THINK THAT WE'VE GOT A REGRESSION TO THE MEAN NOW, BECAUSE SHE'S BEEN BETWEEN 2% AND 8% ALL THE WAY ALONG. SO SHE DROPPED FROM 8% WHEN SHE CALLED THE TRUMP SUPPORTERS DEPLORABLE. SHE DROPPED DOWN WHEN SHE HAD THAT` WHEN SHE LOOKED LIKE SHE FAINTED ON SEPTEMBER 11 COMMEMORATION DAY. AND SO I JUST THINK THAT IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE OBAMA WAS AT THIS TIME LAST TIME, HE WAS 1.1% IN THE POLLS. AND I ALSO THINK IT'S IN THE STATE TO LOOK AT THE NATIONAL POLLS ` YOU'VE GOT TO FOCUS ON THE TOP FOUR, FIVE, SIX OF THE SWING STATES. SHE'S GOT, LIKE, 221 OF SOLID LEANING AND A SMALL NUMBER OF WAVERING. HE'S GOT, I THINK, 164 OF SOLID, SMALLER NUMBER OF LEANING AND A HUGE NUMBER OF WAVERING. SO YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AT` THE NATIONAL POLLS, YOU HAVE TO TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. IT AIN'T GOING TO BE BORING. < IT'S NOT GOING TO BE BORING. LET'S ALSO TALK QUICKLY ABOUT THE AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT INTO THE SAUDI SHEIK DEAL. THE GOVERNMENT WAS CLEARED OF ANY CRIMINAL CORRUPTION, BUT YOU KNOW, MURRAY MCCULLY IS REPEATING THAT, THAT THEY'RE CLEARED OF THAT. BUT ARE THEY CLEARED, THOUGH, FULL STOP? BECAUSE THE DEAL DIDN'T LOOK THAT GOOD IN BLACK AND WHITE. THERE'S A NASTY TASTE SOMEWHERE. I MEAN, FOR THE AUDITOR GENERAL TO SAY THAT SHE'S SURPRISED AT SOME OF THIS; THAT IT'S NOT CORRUPTION BUT IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD. AND MCCULLY TO SAY, 'OH, I'LL TAKE THAT ON THE CHIN,' BECAUSE I THINK HE'S FAIRLY RELIEVED. AND IT SORT OF SMELLS A LITTLE BIT OF THE CLINTON FBI STUFF, YOU KNOW. SHE DIDN'T ACTUALLY` SHE'S NOT GOING TO BE PROSECUTED, BUT OOH, NOT GOOD. JENNA, WERE YOU SURPRISED IT DIDN'T GET MORE POLITICAL REACTION TO IT? IT WAS A BIT OF A BELTWAY STORY, DO YOU THINK, OR DID IT RESONATE WITH PEOPLE? YEAH, I THINK IT JUST DIDN'T RESONATE WITH THE PUBLIC AS MUCH AS IT SHOULD'VE. BUT THOSE ARE SOME PRETTY SERIOUS THINGS IN THAT REPORT. I MEAN, HE WENT TO CABINET WITH A DOCUMENT THAT DIDN'T MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THAT WAS GOING INTO PRIVATE OWNERSHIP. AND THE AUDITOR GENERAL SAID THAT HE CAME UP WITH THAT $11.5 MILLION FIGURE OUT OF THIN AIR. I MEAN, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. AND THERE WAS NO THREAT OF A LEGAL CASE? WELL, IT WASN'T FOLLOWED UP WITH EVIDENCE. YEAH, BUT SHE'S SUGGESTING THEY REPORT BACK ON THE BENEFITS, SO WE'LL WATCH FOR THAT REPORT. TIME NOW FOR A LOOK AT SOME OF WHAT WILL BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. LABOUR LEADER ANDREW LITTLE GIVES HIS KEYNOTE ADDRESS TO THE PARTY CONFERENCE; THAT'S LATER TODAY. US SECRETARY OF STATE, JOHN KERRY, WILL BE TOUCHING DOWN NEXT WEEK WITH MEETINGS WITH JOHN KEY AND FOREIGN MINISTER, MURRAY MCCULLY. AND THE CROSS-PARTY HOMELESSNESS ENQUIRY REPORT IS TABLED AS A PETITION TO A SELECT COMMITTEE ON THURSDAY. AND THE RESERVE BANK RELEASES ITS LATEST OFFICIAL CASH RATE ON THURSDAY. EXPERTS ARE EXPECTING OR PREDICTING ANOTHER CUT. AND NEXT WEEK, WE'LL BE COMING TO YOU FROM WASHINGTON DC COVERING THE RESULTS AND THE REACTION FROM THE AMERICAN ELECTION. AS WE SAID, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE BORING. CATCH US BACK HERE THEN. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016