GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. AND I'M PATRICK GOWER. THIS WEEK WE ARE IN WASHINGTON DC, WHERE DONALD TRUMP IS GETTING READY TO MOVE INTO THAT WHITE HOUSE. SO, HOW DID HE MANAGE TO PULL OFF A WIN WHEN SO MANY PEOPLE HAD WRITTEN HIM OFF, INCLUDING HIS OWN PARTY? AND HOW DID HILLARY CLINTON LOSE WHEN SHE'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS THE MOST QUALIFIED CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT EVER? WHAT WILL A TRUMP PRESIDENCY LOOK LIKE? WELL, WE'LL DISCUSS THAT WITH OUR DC INSIDERS AND OUR EXPERT PANEL. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 WELL, THIS WEEK'S ELECTION RESULTS CERTAINLY CAME AS A SHOCK ` DID IT WHAT ` AND THAT INCLUDED A REAL SHOCK, OF COURSE, TO DONALD TRUMP'S OWN REPUBLICAN PARTY. REMEMBER THAT MANY OF THE TOP REPUBLICANS HAD DISOWNED HIM IN THE LEAD-UP TO THIS. SO WHAT HAPPENS NOW FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY? I SPOKE TO PHILIP KLEIN FROM THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER. WE'VE SEEN THESE IMAGES OF PRESIDENT OBAMA AND THE PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP SIDE BY SIDE IN THE WHITE HOUSE. EXTRAORDINARY. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THOSE IMAGES? I THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE A WHILE TO GET USED TO FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE AFTER THE LONG CAMPAIGN AND A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID AND HIS REPUTATION. SORT OF, IT'S DUE TO BEING ON REALITY TV AND SO FORTH. NOW THERE'S NO CHOICE BUT TO TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY, AND THERE HE IS SITTING IN THE VERY HISTORIC ROOM OF THE WHITE HOUSE WHERE YOU'RE TYPICALLY USED TO SEEING THE PRESIDENT THERE WELCOMING FOREIGN LEADERS AND TALKING ABOUT WHAT THEY DISCUSSED IN THEIR SUMMIT. AND SO IT IS STARTLING TO SEE DONALD TRUMP THERE, AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE SOME ADJUSTMENT, I THINK, FOR EVERYONE. GIVEN THE POLLING AND THE MUCH, I SUPPOSE, DIVISION WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN MOVEMENT, WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT HE MANAGED TO PULL THIS OFF? I THINK IT WAS, I MEAN, A SURPRISE TO A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING MYSELF. THE POLLING SEEMED TO INDICATE THAT HILLARY CLINTON HAD A COMFORTABLE ENOUGH LEAD IN A CRITICAL NUMBER OF STATES TO WIN, AND HE PULLED IT OFF. WHAT DO YOU THINK GOT HIM OVER THE LINE? WHO DELIVERED THIS TO HIM? I THINK IT WAS A COMBINATION OF TWO THINGS. TRUMP DID BETTER THAN MITT ROMNEY AMONG WHITES WITHOUT A COLLEGE DEGREE, MANY OF WHOM VOTED FOR OBAMA IN 2012. AND ALSO CLINTON DIDN'T DO AS WELL AS OBAMA IN TURNING OUT AND GETTING THE SUPPORT OF YOUNG PEOPLE AND MINORITY GROUPS. YOU SAID AT ONE STAGE THAT YOU WOULDN'T VOTE FOR HIM. DID YOU VOTE FOR HIM? I DID NOT. CAN YOU TELL US WHO YOU DID VOTE FOR? I ENDED UP WRITING IN 'NONE OF THE ABOVE'. DID YOU THROW YOUR VOTE AWAY? I DON'T THINK I DID. I, IN THE END, VOTED MY CONSCIENCE, AND I DECIDED NOT TO VOTE FOR EITHER OF THEM. DID YOU EVER IMAGINE THAT THAT WOULD HAPPEN IN YOUR LIFETIME ` WHERE YOU GO TO CAST YOUR VOTE AND THERE IS NO CHOICE THAT YOU WANT? I MEAN, IT'S SORT OF IF YOU FOLLOW... I DON'T BELIEVE IN PUTTING TOO MUCH FAITH IN POLITICIANS, SO I GUESS IT'S NOT STARTLING THAT IT WOULD EVER BE THAT SITUATION. NOW, YOU'VE CALLED TRUMP IN THE PAST A MEGALOMANIAC WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS ON EXECUTIVE POWER. SO HOW WORRIED ARE YOU ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS FROM THIS POINT ONWARDS? AS I'VE WRITTEN A NUMBER OF TIMES, I HAVE A NUMBER OF CONCERNS ABOUT HOW HE'S GOING TO PERFORM ONCE IN THE WHITE HOUSE. I STAND BY EVERYTHING I WROTE. I HAD, SORT OF, WRITTEN AFTER HIS ELECTION A POST ABOUT A LOT OF THE FEARS I STILL HAVE ABOUT WHAT HE COULD BE ABOUT` SO WHAT ARE THEY? WHAT ARE YOU MOST WORRIED ABOUT WITH HIM? WELL, BASICALLY, THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN, HE'S DEMONSTRATED A LACK OF, SORT OF, INTEREST OR UNDERSTANDING OF ISSUES AS WELL AS THE PROPER LIMITS ON PRESIDENTIAL POWER, AND HE'S BEEN VERY THIN-SKINNED, AND SO I'M KIND OF WORRIED ABOUT WHAT HAVING THAT CONCENTRATED POWER IN THE PRESIDENCY IS GOING TO DO. AND SO THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S UP TO CONGRESS TO REASSERT ITS CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY. WHEN YOU SAY HE'S THIN-SKINNED, ARE YOU WORRIED THAT HE'S GOING TO HAVE A TANTRUM OVER SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE SAYS AND DO SOMETHING THAT HAS SERIOUS IMPLICATIONS? I MEAN, IT COULD BE. WE SAW THAT A LOT DURING THE CAMPAIGN, SO THE QUESTION IS ` WAS THAT A ROLE THAT HE WAS PLAYING DURING THE CAMPAIGN, AND IS HE GOING TO PUT IT IN CHECK DURING THE PRESIDENCY? I'M SCEPTICAL, BUT WE'RE KIND OF IN UNCHARTED TERRITORY. WHAT DO YOU THINK? DO YOU THINK HE WAS PLAYING A ROLE DURING THE CAMPAIGN? I MEAN, I THINK THAT HE WAS PROBABLY PLAYING A LOT OF DIFFERENT ROLES BUT THAT AS PRESIDENT WE'RE PROBABLY GOING TO GET A LOT OF DIFFERENT TRUMPS. DURING THE CAMPAIGN HE WENT THROUGH DIFFERENT PHASES. THERE WERE PHASES WHERE HE TRIED TO APPEAR MORE PRESIDENTIAL AND BE MORE SOBER-MINDED AND SHOW MORE COMPASSION AND HUMILITY. THERE WERE OTHER STAGES WHERE HE WAS VERY NASTY AND BRASH OR UNSERIOUS, AND THERE WERE SOME TIMES WHEN HE SEEMED VERY HAWKISH ON FOREIGN POLICY AND TALKING ABOUT BOMBING ISIS AND SO FORTH. THERE WERE OTHER TIMES WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT HOW AMERICA SHOULDN'T BE AS INVOLVED IN FOREIGN WARS AND IN MILITARY INTERVENTIONS. HE SPOKE ABOUT OPPOSING THE IRAQ WAR AND THE INTERVENTION IN LIBYA. SO HE SAID, SORT OF, A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT AREN'T ACTUALLY COHERENT; THEY CONTRADICT ONE ANOTHER. AND I IMAGINE THAT AS PRESIDENT, WE'RE PROBABLY GOING TO GET A BIT OF THAT TOO ` THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE A WIDE RANGE OF HOW HE'S GOING TO PERFORM. HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK HE'S ACTUALLY GOING TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON? BECAUSE HE'S TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, BANNING MUSLIMS, BUILDING A WALL. ALREADY, WE'VE NOTICED THAT SOME OF THOSE KEY POLICY PLANKS OR IDEAS, IF YOU LIKE, HAVE COME DOWN FROM HIS WEBSITE. HE SEEMS TO BE DIALLING IT BACK. PEOPLE ARE NOW EVEN TALKING ABOUT A METAPHORICAL WALL. SO HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK HE WILL FOLLOW THROUGH ON THOSE THINGS THAT POTENTIALLY DELIVERED THE PRESIDENCY TO HIM? I THINK THAT BANNING MUSLIMS IS UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN, I MEAN, FOR NO OTHER REASON THAT IT'S COMPLETELY IMPRACTICAL TO IMPLEMENT. ANYONE COULD SAY, 'WELL, I'M NOT`' I MEAN, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE A TEST, REALLY? IF SOMEBODY SAYS, 'I'M NOT A MUSLIM,' HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TEST WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE MUSLIM? SO IN TERMS OF PRACTICALITY, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO IMPLEMENT. I CAN'T REALLY SEE HIM DOING THAT. I THINK THAT HE'LL HAVE A HARDER TIME NOT FOLLOWING IT THROUGH ON THE PROMISE TO BUILD A WALL, BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH AN INTEGRAL PART OF HIS CANDIDACY THAT HE SAID AT ALMOST EVERY STOP. AND TO YOU THAT'S A REAL WALL, NOT A METAPHORICAL WALL THAT PEOPLE ARE NOW DISCUSSING? I THINK THAT IF HE DOESN'T BUILD A PHYSICAL WALL... AND NOW IF YOU LOOK AT THE BORDER OF THE UNITED STATES, THERE ARE PARTS OF IT THAT ARE SEPARATED BY WATERS WHERE YOU'RE NOT ACTUALLY` THERE WOULD ONLY BE A CERTAIN PORTION OF THE BORDER WHERE YOU COULD ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO BUILD A PHYSICAL WALL. I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR HIM IF HE DOESN'T` IF HE DOESN'T BUILD SOME SORT OF WALL SOMEWHERE, EVEN IF IT MIGHT NOT BE` SO IN YOUR MIND IT WILL HAPPEN? I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW. I'VE KIND OF... I'VE SORT OF REFRAINED FROM MAKING ANY MORE PREDICTIONS ABOUT TRUMP AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AFTER THE RESULT THAT WE SAW ON TUESDAY. I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY. YOU MENTIONED THE REPUBLICANS HAVE CONGRESS. MANY OF THEM DENOUNCED TRUMP DURING THE CAMPAIGN. WILL THEY TEMPER HIM, DO YOU THINK? REIN HIM IN? I DON'T HAVE FAITH THAT REPUBLICANS WILL TRY TO TEMPER HIM OR REIN HIM IN. GENERALLY SPEAKING, MOST POLITICIANS TEND TO GO ALONG WITH WHOEVER IS IN POWER IN THEIR PARTY. SO DURING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, FOR INSTANCE, DEMOCRATS WERE VERY BIG ON ARGUING THAT... AGAINST EXECUTIVE POWER, AND THEY SAID THE BUSH EXERTED TOO MUCH EXECUTIVE POWER AND NEEDED TO BE REINED IN. WHEN OBAMA CAME INTO OFFICE, DEMOCRATS DEFENDED HIS USE OF EXECUTIVE POWER, AND REPUBLICANS WERE THE ONES TALKING ABOUT THE ABUSE OF EXECUTIVE POWER. AND SO WHEN TRUMP COMES BACK IN, I ASSUME IT'S JUST GOING TO REVERSE AGAIN. AND SO I THINK PEOPLE ARE MORE OUTCOME BASED. IF TRUMP IS DOING THINGS THAT THEY LIKE, THEN THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MEANS AT WHICH HE GOES ABOUT IT. PEOPLE OBSERVING THIS MIGHT FIND THAT REALLY STRANGE, BECAUSE YOU HAD THE LIKES OF MARCO RUBIO AND PAUL RYAN JUST BACKING AWAY BIG TIME DURING THE CAMPAIGN. DO YOU THINK THEY'RE ALL JUST GOING TO FALL INTO LINE? I THINK PROBABLY THEY'LL FALL INTO LINE, YEAH. I MEAN, IT WOULD HAVE TO TAKE SOMETHING RATHER DRAMATIC FOR THEM TO START OPPOSING. I MEAN, A LOT OF IT TOO DEPENDS ON HOW TRUMP'S APPROVAL RATING IS AND HOW HE'S PERCEIVED AMONG REPUBLICAN CONSTITUENCIES. IF HE'S SEEN AS COMPLETELY BETRAYING REPUBLICANS AND GOING IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIRECTION AND THERE'S WIDE OPPOSITION, YOU MIGHT SEE REPUBLICANS START TO BACK AWAY FROM HIM, BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO BE FACING RE-ELECTION AND WORRIED ABOUT 2018 WHEN ALL OF CONGRESS AND A THIRD OF THE SENATE IS UP FOR RE-ELECTION AGAIN. AND SO I THINK THAT IF YOU FOLLOWED DURING THE CAMPAIGN, WHAT YOU SAW WAS THERE WAS A PRETTY CLEAR LINE THAT IF TRUMP WAS UP IN THE POLLS, REPUBLICANS WERE SAYING THINGS THAT WERE MORE COMPLIMENTARY TOWARDS HIM. WHEN HE STARTED FALLING IN THE POLLS AND GOT INTO TROUBLE, LIKE WITH THE TAPE THAT CAME OUT ON 'ACCESS HOLLYWOOD' TALKING ABOUT GROPING WOMEN` SO THEY WERE SAVING THEMSELVES? YEAH. SO I THINK THAT IN THE BEGINNING, THERE'S A BIT OF A HONEYMOON PERIOD. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GIVE HIM A CHANCE AND BE FAIRLY DEFERENTIAL TO TRUMP. IF HE ENDS UP TANKING IN THE POLLS AND LOSING THE FAITH AND DISILLUSIONING A LOT OF HIS SUPPORTERS, LIKE, LET'S SAY, FOR INSTANCE, HE DOESN'T BUILD A WALL AND A LOT OF PEOPLE COME TO SEE HIM AS A FRAUD, THEN YOU MIGHT SEE REPUBLICANS WANT TO RESIST HIM A BIT MORE. DURING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, YOU DIDN'T REALLY SEE REPUBLICANS START TO PUSH BACK UNTIL THE SECOND HALF OF THE SECOND TERM. WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, BUT I DO QUICKLY WANT TO TOUCH ON THE POLLS, BECAUSE THEY WERE SO WRONG. MANY OF THEM IN THE DAYS BEFORE WERE SAYING 70% CHANCE OR MORE OF HILLARY CLINTON BEING PRESIDENT. I'M WONDERING WHAT HAPPENED THERE. DID PEOPLE SAY ONE THING AND THEN DO ANOTHER? THERE MIGHT'VE BEEN SOME OF THAT. I THINK IT WAS A COMBINATION OF A NUMBER OF FACTORS. BASICALLY WHAT POLLS TRY TO DO IS THEY TRY TO SAY... THERE'S TWO ASPECTS OF IT. ONE IS THEY ASK WHO YOU'RE GOING TO VOTE FOR, AND ANOTHER ASPECT IS THEY HAVE TO CHOOSE HOW LIKELY SOMEBODY IS TO VOTE. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO'S GOING TO SHOW UP ON ELECTION DAY. YOU HAVE TO BASICALLY, AS A POLLSTER, GUESS, AND THEY GUESSED WRONG. THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT SHOWED UP THAT WEREN'T EXPECTED TO SHOW UP, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WERE EXPECTED TO SHOW UP DID NOT SHOW UP. AND HILLARY CLINTON PARTICULARLY, BECAUSE OF THE DECREASE IN HER ABILITY TO WIN OVER MINORITY VOTERS AND LOSING A NUMBER OF WHITE AREAS THAT WENT FOR OBAMA, THAT WAS A DIFFERENCE, AND THE POLLS DID NOT DETECT IT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. MUCH APPRECIATED. THANK YOU. THE NATION IS COMING TO YOU FROM WASHINGTON, THE HEART OF US POLITICS THIS WEEK. WE'VE GOT LOTS MORE TO DISCUSS. WE'LL BE BACK WITH YOU AFTER THE BREAK. WELL, THE DEMOCRATS HAD A CATCHPHRASE DURING THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN ` 'WHEN THEY GO LOW, WE GO HIGH.' BUT THE CAMPAIGN DID GO LOW WHEN IT WAS REVEALED THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD MADE SEXIST COMMENTS ABOUT WOMEN AND HAD BEEN CAUGHT ON CAMERA. BUT THAT DIDN'T STOP WOMEN VOTING FOR DONALD TRUMP. I'M JOINED NOW BY MICHELLE COTTLE FROM 'THE ATLANTIC'. GOOD MORNING. CAN YOU TELL ME ` HILLARY CLINTON, WAS SHE JUST THE WRONG WOMAN TO STAND FOR THIS, OR WERE PEOPLE REJECTING HER AS A WOMAN? WELL, I THINK MOSTLY IT WAS THE PARTICULAR, BUT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PARSE THE SEXISM THAT HAS GONE INTO VILIFYING HER OVER THE YEARS. SO I THINK IN THE BIG PICTURE, THERE'S A LOT OF SEXISM INVOLVED IN TERMS OF WHY CERTAIN SEGMENTS OF AMERICAN SOCIETY HATE HILLARY SO MUCH. BUT, THAT SAID, ON THE FLIP SIDE, THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THIS MOMENT WHO WEREN'T, AND A LOT OF THAT WAS WRAPPED UP IN HILLARY'S BAGGAGE, HOW CONTROVERSIAL SHE IS AND JUST ALL THESE YEARS OF PEOPLE WATCHING HER AND MAKING THEIR JUDGEMENTS ABOUT HER. YEAH. I THINK THE THING IS ON THE STREET, WHEN PEOPLE CAME UP TO YOU UNSOLICITED, PEOPLE WOULD SAY SHE'S NOT TRUSTWORTHY, SHE'S PART OF THIS POLITICAL ELITE, A DYNASTY. WHAT WAS WITH ALL OF THAT? WELL, IT HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE EARLY '90S, THAT THE MESSAGE ESPECIALLY FROM THE RIGHT POLITICALLY HAS BEEN, 'THEY'RE CORRUPT. THEY'RE CROOKED. SHE'S LADY MACBETH. SHE'S MACHIAVELLIAN.' THEY DID NOT HAVE, KIND OF, THE SQUEAKY-CLEAN IMAGE THAT BARACK OBAMA HAD WHEN HE WAS RUNNING. SO WHEN ALL OF THIS CAME UP WITH THE EMAIL SERVER AND THEN WHEN PEOPLE HACKED INTO HER EMAILS AND FOUND THINGS THAT ARE ACTUALLY PRETTY COMMON IN POLITICS, BUT BECAUSE THEY WERE LOOKING AT HILLARY THROUGH THE PRISM OF, 'OH, THIS FAMILY IS ALWAYS TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH STUFF,' IT HAD A VERY NEGATIVE IMPACT AND DAMPENED ENTHUSIASM. WELL, I SUPPOSE IT RAISES THE QUESTION HOW MUCH OF THAT CRITICISM WAS FOUNDED, WAS FAIR CRITICISM OF HER? AND IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT TO PARSE OUT, KIND OF, WHAT PEOPLE'S BAGGAGE SPECIFICALLY WITH HILLARY, HOW THAT PLAYED INTO ALL THIS. PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT AND THERE HAVE BEEN LOTS OF PIECES WRITTEN ABOUT HOW IF IT WERE ANOTHER POLITICIAN, IT WOULD NOT HAVE RESONATED QUITE SO MUCH. AND LET'S BE FRANK. I MEAN, DONALD TRUMP IS BEING INVESTIGATED FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS AS WELL AND NONE OF THAT STUCK TO HIM. ALMOST NOTHING. IT WAS LIKE TEFLON. WELL, THE THING IS, I SUPPOSE, ALSO TRUMP IS PART OF THE ELITE AS WELL. HE'S AN INCREDIBLY RICH MAN. HE MOVES IN CERTAIN CIRCLES, SO HOW IT IS THAT HE MANAGED TO WIN PEOPLE OVER? WELL, IT WAS THE ULTIMATE IRONY IN THAT THIS MANHATTAN BILLIONAIRE WAS ABLE TO PLAY THE POPULOUS CARD. NOW, THERE IS A BIT TO TRUMP'S STYLE. I MEAN, HE'S ALWAYS HAD THIS CHIP ON HIS SHOULDER. HE'S BEEN LOOKED DOWN ON BY POLITICAL AND BUSINESS ELITES, BECAUSE HE'S, FRANKLY, A VULGAR GUY, AND A LOT OF HIS MONEY STARTED OUT COMING FROM HIS FAMILY. SO HE'S ALWAYS HAD THIS CHIP ON HIS SHOULDER, AND I THINK THAT RESONATED WITH THE WHITE, WORKING-CLASS VOTERS WHO TURNED OUT IN DROVES FOR HIM, BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'VE BEEN LOOKED DOWN ON, THEY'VE BEEN LEFT BEHIND AND PEOPLE HAVE SCORNED THEM AS WELL. SO HE TOOK THAT REALLY ANGRY POPULIST MESSAGE, AND IT WAS THE RIGHT MESSAGE FOR THIS POINT IN TIME. BUT THE THING IS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, MORE THAN 50% OF WHITE WOMEN VOTED FOR TRUMP, AND YOU'VE REALLY GOT TO ASK WHY, GIVEN EVERYTHING WE SAW DURING THE CAMPAIGN. WHAT TURNED THEM TO HIM? WELL, MARRIED WHITE WOMEN ALMOST ALWAYS GO REPUBLICAN, SO TRUMP'S PARTICULAR BENEFIT THIS TIME AROUND WAS NON COLLEGE-EDUCATED WHITE WOMEN. NOW, HILLARY WON COLLEGE-EDUCATED WHITE WOMEN. BUT WHAT WAS UNDERESTIMATED WAS THE NUMBERS OF THESE PEOPLE THAT WOULD TURN OUT AND VOTE FOR HIM. AND AMERICAN POLITICS IS KIND OF LIKE A BLOOD SPORT. THERE ARE CONSERVATIVE WOMEN WHO WOULD RATHER VOTE FOR STALIN THAN VOTE FOR HILLARY CLINTON, JUST LIKE THERE A CONSERVATIVE MEN WHO WOULD GO THAT WAY AS WELL. NOW, WHAT USUALLY HAPPENS IS THE DEMOCRATS MAKE UP IN OTHER WAYS, BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN THIS TIME. HILLARY'S BASE DID NOT TURN OUT FOR HER IN THE NUMBERS TO MAKE UP FOR THAT, AND THE RESULT IS WHAT IT IS. WHY DIDN'T HER BASE TURN OUT? WELL, THIS GOES TO THE` HILLARY HAS NEVER BEEN AN INSPIRATIONAL CANDIDATE. SHE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE KIND OF WORKHORSE WHO EARNED IT AND DESERVED IT. I MEAN, THIS IS WHY, IN SOME WAYS, SHE LOST TO OBAMA IN 2008. HE WAS HOPE AND CHANGE, AND HE SPOKE TO PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS. AND WHEN AMERICANS ARE VOTING FOR A PRESIDENT, THEY ARE VOTING ON GUT-LEVEL FEELINGS. I MEAN, NO ONE EVEN KNOWS WHAT TRUMP'S POLICIES ARE. (LAUGHS) AND IN THAT SENSE, YOU KNEW WHERE HE WAS COMING FROM, THOUGH. HE SPOKE TO PEOPLE'S GUT. HE ABSOLUTELY SPOKE TO PEOPLE'S GUTS, AND SOME PEOPLE HATED IT, BUT SOME PEOPLE LOVED IT. AND ON BALANCE, THAT'S BETTER THAN NOT HAVING ANY SORT OF CLEAR MESSAGE AT ALL, AND SHE LACKED A CLEAR MESSAGE. SHE'S ALWAYS LACKED, KIND OF, THIS DRIVING, INSPIRATIONAL MESSAGE. IN 2008 SHE LACKED IT AND- SO 'STRONGER TOGETHER' WASN'T ENOUGH OF A MESSAGE? NO, THAT'S NOT A MESSAGE. WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? HE HAD A MESSAGE THAT REALLY JACKED PEOPLE UP. I MEAN, GOOD OR BAD, HE HAD THIS, AND IT WAS ENOUGH. SO HE HAD A MESSAGE, BUT HAS HE GOT TO THE GOODS BEHIND IT? I MEAN, WHAT KIND OF PRESIDENCY CAN YOU EXPECT FROM DONALD TRUMP, GIVEN HE'S SAID THINGS LIKE HE'S GOING TO LOOK FOR A CONSERVATIVE PERSON TO APPOINT TO THE SUPREME COURT? HE WANTS A CONSERVATIVE JUDGE. FOR WOMEN, WHAT'S THAT GOING TO MEAN FOR DECADES TO COME? NOTHING, BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BASICALLY PUT THE BALANCE OF THE COURT BACK WHERE IT WAS. NOW, IF HE WERE PICKING TO REPLACE, SAY, RUTH BADER GINSBURG, WHO'S A VERY LIBERAL JUSTICE, THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING DIFFERENT. THIS BASICALLY MEANS IF YOU DON'T WANT THE COURT TO TILT, AS A WOMAN, YOU NEED TO BE ROOTING FOR EVERYONE TO STAY HEALTHY GOING FORWARD. BUT HE IS REPLACING ANTONIN SCALIA, WHO WAS THE MOST CONSERVATIVE BRAIN ON THAT COURT. AND SO IT WILL RETURN IT TO WHAT IT WAS. THE PROBLEM WILL BE IF THERE IS ANOTHER OPENING COMING UP, AND THEN DEMOCRATS WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT. BUT THERE ARE ` WHAT ` TWO, THREE JUDGES WHO ARE THERE AGED OVER 70. IT'S CONCEIVABLE THAT COULD HAPPEN. IT IS. IT'S ABSOLUTELY CONCEIVABLE THAT COULD HAPPEN, AND WHAT IS COMING UP WILL BE A QUESTION OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE MIDTERMS, WHICH ARE JUST TWO YEARS DOWN THE ROAD. DEMOCRATS WILL BE REMINDING PEOPLE OF THIS, YOU CAN BET. BUT HE'S BEEN SAYING THINGS, AND HE SAID IN THE DEBATE ABOUT ABORTION THAT HE WOULD OVERTURN` HE WANTS TO GET ROE VS WADE OVERTURNED ` LANDMARK CASE REGARDING WOMEN'S RIGHTS. CAN THAT HAPPEN? WELL, IF HE STACKS THE COURT BEYOND THIS APPOINTMENT WITH CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES WHO ARE HAPPY TO OVERTURN ROE VS WADE, YES, SURE. ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. NOW, ONE QUESTION IS, 'IS THAT REALLY A PRIORITY OF HIS?' PEOPLE SAY A LOT OF THINGS IN CAMPAIGNS, AND HE HAS SAID MORE THAN MOST. HE HAS MADE THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS PROMISES. HE'S GOING TO BUILD THAT WALL AND DEPORT 11 MILLION IMMIGRANTS AND NEVER LET MUSLIMS BACK IN, AND HE'S GOING TO BE... YOU KNOW. HE HAS GONE THROUGH, HE HAS PROMISED THE WORLD TO HIS VOTERS, AND THESE PEOPLE ARE WAITING TO SEE WHAT HE DELIVERS ON. AND HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK HE WILL DELIVER FROM THAT LIST? WELL, THERE ARE CERTAIN EASY THINGS THAT I'M NOT EVEN SURE THEY CARE ABOUT. LIKE, THE TPP TRADE PACT WILL BE DEAD FOR A WHILE. HE'S GOING TO TRY TO ROLL BACK OBAMACARE, AND HE'LL HAVE TO WORK WITH THE REPUBLICANS ON THAT IF THERE ARE ANY PIECES THEY WANT TO TRY AND KEEP. THE THINGS THAT HE AGREES WITH THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS ON WILL BE MUCH EASIER TO TRY FOR. THINGS LIKE A TRADE WAR. THERE IS NOT A REPUBLICAN SENATOR WHO IS GOING TO BE LINING UP TO START A TRADE WAR OR TO TEAR UP A LOT OF THESE TRADE NEGOTIATION PACTS THAT HE'S BEEN AIMING FOR. BUT HE SEEMS TO BE DIALLING THINGS BACK ALREADY. IN HIS ACCEPTANCE SPEECH, IF YOU LIKE, HE WAS ALREADY KIND OF DIALLING THINGS BACK, TAKING A MORE CONCILIATORY TONE. YET, HE'S PROMISED SOME OF THOSE THINGS. AS YOU SAID, HE APPEALED TO PEOPLE'S GUTS BY SAYING, 'LET'S BUILD A WALL.' IF HE DOESN'T GIVE THOSE BASELINE THINGS, WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE HIM? WELL, IT LEAVES HIM, BASICALLY, WITH A REALLY ANGRY GROUP OF FOLLOWERS. NOW, HERE'S THE THING ` NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HE BELIEVES. NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HIS POLITICS ARE. HE IS NOT A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE, BUT THAT'S WHAT MADE THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS NERVOUS. HE IS NOT ONE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO IS LOOKING TO STRIP OUT ALL GOVERNMENT. I MEAN, HIS FIRST DISCUSSION IS INFRASTRUCTURE. INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING IS EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE. THAT MONEY HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE, AND THE DEFICIT HAWKS IN CONGRESS AREN'T GOING TO LIKE ALL THAT SPENDING. EVERYBODY, IN THEORY, LIKES INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING, BUT WHEN IT COMES TIME TO PAY FOR IT, HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE THIS OUT. SO THERE WILL BE A LOT OF THESE ISSUES THAT HE JUST KIND OF HAS TO WORK THROUGH, AND IT WILL BE A QUESTION OF PRIORITIES, AND IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THAT PANS OUT. SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AT THE MOMENT? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS A LOT OF` THERE WAS MASSIVE GNARL-UPS DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN. YOU HAD PAUL RYAN THROWING DOWN WITH HIM, PEOPLE BACKING AWAY FROM TRUMP. ARE THEY ALL GOING TO PLAY NICE NOW? YEAH, THEY'LL PLAY NICE, BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT CONTROL OF ALL OF GOVERNMENT. THERE WILL BE A FEW PEOPLE LIKE SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM, WHO WAS VERY OUTSPOKEN AND HE DIDN'T EVEN VOTE FOR TRUMP. SENATOR BEN SASSE. THERE WERE A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE WHO WERE VERY OUTSPOKEN ABOUT THEIR CONCERNS, BUT EVEN THEY WILL ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THEY HAVE TO PLAY NICE WITH A PRESIDENT FROM THEIR OWN PARTY. AND THE WOMAN WHO DIDN'T GET THE PRESIDENCY ` LET'S COME BACK TO HER. WHAT DO YOU THINK? IN HER CONCESSION SPEECH, SHE SAID, 'THIS IS GOING TO BE PAINFUL FOR SOME TIME.' MUST HAVE BEEN HUMILIATING FOR HER. WHAT'S SHE GOING TO DO NOW? SHE CAN DO WHATEVER SHE WANTS. I MEAN, BASICALLY, SHE CAN GO BACK TO THE FOUNDATION. SHE CAN START SOME NEW WOMEN'S RIGHTS. SHE'S ALWAYS BEEN STARTING ISSUE ORGANISATIONS, THINGS LIKE THAT. VITAL VOICES, WHICH WORKS WITH WOMEN LEADERS ACROSS THE GLOBE, SHE STARTED YEARS AGO. SHE HAS THE, KIND OF, CREDENTIALS AND THE HIGH PROFILE TO DO WHATEVER SHE WANTS. AND WHEN SHE'S NOT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, EVERYONE LOVES HER. WHEN SHE WAS SECRETARY OF STATE, SHE WAS THE REPUBLICANS' FAVOURITE DEMOCRAT, FAVOURITE MEMBER OF THE CABINET. IT WAS ONLY WHEN SHE BECAME THE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE THAT THEY DECIDED SHE WAS ONCE MORE SATAN. SO, 2020 FOR THE DEMOCRATS. WHO'S IT GOING TO BE? WELL, THIS IS ONE OF THE PARTY'S BIG PROBLEMS, BECAUSE EVER SINCE OBAMA WON, HILLARY HAS BEEN THE PRESUMPTIVE CANDIDATE-IN-WAITING, AND THAT HAS SHADED A LOT PEOPLE AND KEPT THEM FROM GROWING AS THEY SHOULD. SO THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO THEY DO ABOUT THEIR FARM TEAM NOW, AND NO ONE KNOWS. THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS. THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGHT IT OUT. WHETHER THE POPULIST ELIZABETH WARREN, BERNIE SANDERS BRANCH... YEAH, I WAS GOING TO SAY IS IT GOING TO BE A WOMAN AGAIN? ...OF THE PARTY IS GOING TO DOMINATE, OR IF THEY'RE GOING TO TRY AND STICK WITH THE MORE, KIND OF, MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. AND THAT'S JUST GOING TO BE` EVERY TIME A PARTY LOSES, THERE'S SO MUCH SOUL-SEARCHING AND SO MUCH INFIGHTING, THAT IT'S JUST BEST TO SIT BACK WITH POPCORN AND WATCH. IT'S UGLY. YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE A WOMAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE AS THE PRESIDENT. IN 240 YEARS, IT HASN'T HAPPENED. HOW LONG ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT? WELL, THIS DEPENDS KIND OF ON WHAT THE DEMOCRATS DO ABOUT THEIR FARM TEAM. THERE ARE SENATORS IN WAITING, BUT A LOT PRESIDENTS JUST CAN'T COME THROUGH THE CONGRESS, SO IT'S ALMOST GOING TO FALL TO GOVERNORS OR PEOPLE IN THE STATES OR JUST SOME CRAZY, TOTALLY WITHOUT EXPERIENCE CANDIDATE, LIKE TRUMP DID. ALTHOUGH, I DO THINK THAT'S LESS LIKELY TO HAPPEN WITH A WOMAN. FAIR OR NOT, I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THOSE GENDER ISSUES WHERE PEOPLE WOULD NOT ACCEPT THAT FROM A WOMAN. MICHELLE COTTLE FROM THE ATLANTIC, THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. WE ARE OUTSIDE DONALD TRUMP'S FUTURE HOME IN WASHINGTON. WE'VE GOT MORE AFTER THE BREAK. DO STICK WITH US. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` HOW? WELL, IT'S VERY SIMPLE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT. GET LESS OF THE POPULAR VOTE. BUT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY ONLY VOTING FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR THEM, YOU GET THOSE VOTES, YOU BECOME TRUMPUMPHANT. MAKES SENSE, PAUL. DID YOU SEE HIS MEETING WITH OBAMA? YEAH, THAT'S A DISNEY MOVIE WAITING TO HAPPEN, ISN'T IT? 'THE DIGNITARY AND THE DOOFUS'. APPARENTLY BARACK BROUGHT HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE ALONG FOR A TALKING POINT TOO. WELL, HE WOULD'VE LOVED THAT. OBAMA DOING HIS BEST, THOUGH, TO MAKE SURE IT'S A DIGNIFIED HANDOVER. WELL, AS DIGNIFIED AS A ZOO KEEPER HANDING THE KEYS OVER TO THE ORANG-UTAN CAN BE. HE IS QUITE ORANG, ISN'T HE? MM. YEAH, THAT'S HISTORY IN THE MAKING, ISN'T IT? THERE'S A GOOD POINT. I MEAN, FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT HANDING OVER TO THE FIRST GINGER PRESIDENT. YEAH, PROBABLY BEST IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE INAUGURATION CEREMONY OUTSIDE ON A SUNNY DAY. HE'LL BURST INTO FLAMES, WOULDN'T HE? THAT'D BE GOOD PREPARATION FOR HELL FOR HIM, THOUGH, WOULDN'T IT? TRUE. HOW'S THIS GONNA AFFECT NZ, I GUESS, IS THE BIG QUESTION. WELL, IF YOU THOUGHT HOUSE PRICES WERE HIGH NOW, JUST WAIT TILL A FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND AMERICANS WANT TO MOVE HERE. THINKING POSITIVELY, PAUL. I LIKE IT. IN THAT VEIN, I GUESS HE'S GOING TO CREATE A LOT OF JOBS. MEXICAN BRICKLAYERS ` THEY'RE PROBABLY GETTING BUSY RIGHT NOW. YES. IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS, GUN MANUFACTURERS, AND, OF COURSE, PIE MAKERS. PIE MAKERS? WELL, THERE'S GONNA BE A VERY HIGH DEMAND FOR APPLE HUMBLE. SO THE POLLS SAY. THE CYBER WORLD PLAYED A BIG PART IN THIS CAMPAIGN WITH HILLARY CLINTON'S EMAILS BEING LEAKED AND ALLEGATIONS OF HACKING. NOW, THE ONLINE WORLD IS ALSO PLAYING A MAJOR PART IN TERRORISM THESE DAYS. TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS IS JAMES SCOTT, WHO'S A CYBERSECURITY EXPERT. GOOD MORNING. THANKS FOR JOINING US. THANKS FOR HAVING ME. HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK IT HURT HILLARY CLINTON'S CHANCES AT THE PRESIDENCY TO HAVE THE FBI REOPENING THIS CASE AND DELVING THROUGH THE WHOLE EMAIL ISSUE SO CLOSE TO POLLING DAY? WELL, I THINK NOW SECRETS ARE KIND OF AN IMPOSSIBLE THING TO KEEP, SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO RUN FOR OFFICE NOW, ESPECIALLY WITH WIKILEAKS, SCRIPT KIDDIES, MISCHIEVOUS CYBER ACTORS, SEVERAL CRIMINAL GANGS, I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE READY FOR EVERY SKELETON IN YOUR CLOSET TO JUST BE DUMPED OUT INTO THE PUBLIC. DO YOU THINK IT WAS BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION, THOUGH? WHICH PART? THE FACT THAT SHE WAS BEING INVESTIGATED, THE FACT THAT THE FBI SAID, 'WE'RE LOOKING AT THESE AGAIN'? YEAH, I THINK THAT THAT COULD'VE HAD AN IMPACT ON IT, BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION IS BACK IN THE DAY, EVEN THE LAST ELECTION, CANDIDATES WERE ABLE TO PRETTY MUCH HIDE ALL OF THEIR SKELETONS IN THE CLOSET, JUST PILE THEM UP, PUSH IT IN THERE. BUT NOW, WITH TECHNOLOGY THE WAY IT IS, WITH EMAIL BEING STORED ON SERVERS, IT'S DIFFICULT TO CLOSE THAT CLOSET DOOR, AND EVENTUALLY THE SKELETONS WILL COME FALLING OUT. SO YOU TRULY BELIEVE THAT NOTHING CAN BE KEPT FROM THE PUBLIC DOMAIN? I FIND VERY FEW INFRASTRUCTURES THAT WE CAN'T GET INTO. BECAUSE THAT IS A BIG CALL FOR PEOPLE WHO THEN WANT TO START STANDING FOR PUBLIC OFFICE, < AS YOU SAY. OH, YEAH. YOU REALLY HAVE TO PICK A CANDIDATE THAT'S TRULY SQUEAKY CLEAN. BUT, YEAH, THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS. NOW, I THINK IN THE FUTURE MOVING FORWARD, WHOEVER YOU SEE RUN FOR OFFICE IS GOING TO HAVE SOME SERIOUS NATURAL CYBER HYGIENE. THE THING IS THROUGHOUT THIS CAMPAIGN IT WAS SUGGESTED THAT LEAKS WERE DRIVEN BY RUSSIA, AND THE SUGGESTION WAS MADE IT WENT AS FAR UP AS VLADIMIR PUTIN. IS THAT REALISTIC? ABSOLUTELY NOT. NO. IT IS EASY TO INFILTRATE NETWORKS WHERE THERE ARE NO DEFENCES. SO YOU LOOK AT THE DNC, YOU LOOK AT A HACKER IN SOMEONE'S BATHROOM CLOSET, WHEREVER IN SOMEBODY'S HOUSE; THERE ARE NO POTENT LAYERS OF SECURITY, FROM THE CYBER PERSPECTIVE, NO USER BEHAVIOUR ANALYTICS, NO MULTIFACTOR AUTHENTICATION, NOTHING THAT WOULD CREATE ROADBLOCKS FOR AN ADVERSARY TO GET IN. LET'S MOVE ON TO DONALD TRUMP. IN TERMS OF TERRORISM, HE'S MADE SOME INCREDIBLY STRONG STATEMENTS. HE'S SAID, AND I'M QUOTING HIM HERE, THAT HE'S GOING TO BOMB THE SHIT OUT OF ISIS. THAT IS A HARD-LINE APPROACH. CAN IT HAVE THE DESIRED EFFECT, OR IS HE ONLY GOING TO MAKE THINGS WORSE, DO YOU THINK? I'M TRYING TO THINK OF HOW THAT WOULD ACTUALLY LOOK, BECAUSE ISIS IS SO SPREAD OUT. IT'S LIKE PEPPER ON A DESERT. SO BOMBING THE HECK OUT OF THEM WOULD BE... I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY WOULD DO THAT. I THINK RIGHT NOW WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS PRESERVE WHATEVER INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS LEFT AND START TO REBUILD. BUT I THINK ISIS, ISIL WILL CONTINUE TO BE A PROBLEM. I THINK THAT THEY'RE DEPENDING MORE ON THE CYBER CALIPHATE, WHERE THEY'RE ABLE TO INTRODUCE THIS IDEOLOGICAL PERVERSION INTO NEW MARKETS. < SO THE BATTLE IS ONLINE NOW? YEAH, I THINK IT REALLY IS. I THINK THAT WE'VE DONE A DECENT JOB UP TILL NOW OF KEEPING THE CONFLICT OVER THERE. BUT I THINK NOW WITH SELF-RADICALISATION, HERE DOMESTICALLY AND IN NZ AND IN AUSTRALIA, NORTHERN IRELAND WERE DOING A LOT OVER THERE AS FAR AS CONVERSATIONS WITH INSIDER THREATS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, I THINK THAT PEOPLE THAT ARE SELF-RADICALISING THEMSELVES ` WOUND COLLECTORS, THE FBI CALLS THEM ` I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IS THEY'RE FINDING MORE EXTREME PERVERSIONS OF IDEOLOGIES THAT THEY'RE READY TO FALL IN PLACE. SO YOU HAVE THE SELF-RADICALISATION, WHICH THE CYBER CALIPHATE TRIES TO THEN MATCH UP THEIR JIHADISATION WITH THAT. SO ONCE THAT HAPPENS AND IT CONNECTS, THAT'S WHEN YOU HAVE A DOMESTIC SELF-RADICALISED LONE WOLF TERRORIST. YEAH, SO, TELL ME, THEY USE THIS PHRASE 'LONE WOLF'. YOU USE IT. WHO ARE THEY, AND WHAT MOTIVATES THEM? LONE WOLF... WELL, I THINK THERE'S A CYBER AND PHYSICAL ELEMENT TO THAT. YEAH, THE CYBER LONE WOLF. SURE. THE CYBER LONE WOLF COULD BE A PERSON WHO, FOR EXAMPLE, IS ARRESTED, THEY WERE IN PRISON, THEY BECAME RADICALISED ` RADICAL ISLAM, FOR EXAMPLE ` AND THEY GET OUT OF PRISON. THEY TRY TO FIND PEOPLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH ONLINE THAT HAVE THIS SAME TYPE OF IDEOLOGY THAT THEY WERE CONVERTED TO. AND WHAT HAPPENS IS THEY WILL START THESE CONVERSATIONS, AND MAYBE THE GUY HAS A DAY JOB OR A NIGHT JOB AS A JANITOR IN A PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY. SO WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS THROUGH IRC OR SOME OTHER TYPE OF CHAT, THEY'LL COMMUNICATE WITH HIM ` SOMEONE ACTUALLY WITHIN CYBER CALIPHATE ` AND THEY'LL SAY, 'LOOK, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TAKE THIS MALICIOUS PAY LOAD, 'DOWNLOAD IT, DRAG IT OVER TO A USB DRIVE.' I THINK THE TELL-TALE SIGNS OF SOMEONE THAT IS TOWARDS THE END OF THE RADICALISATION PHASE, GETTING READY TO ACT, THESE PEOPLE WILL HAVE ALIENATED FAMILY MEMBERS, FRIENDS; THEY DO HAVE VIOLENT TENDENCIES AND A LOT OF MARITAL ABUSE, SPOUSAL ABUSE, CHILD ABUSE; A LOT OF THEM WILL BE INVOLVED WITH HANDING OUT PAMPHLETS ON THE STREET FOR EXTREME IDEOLOGIES. THOSE ARE THE TELL-TALE SIGNS. WHEN YOU SAY THAT MENTAL ILLNESS PLAYS A REASONABLY SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN THIS, THEN THAT KIND OF SOUNDS LIKE IT'S NOT A LAW-ENFORCEMENT ISSUE; IT'S A HEALTH ISSUE. YEAH, AND UNFORTUNATELY IN THE UNITED STATES WE CRIMINALISE MENTAL HEALTH, PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH, SO HEALTH ISSUES. SO YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE THAT ARE BIPOLAR OR JUST HAVE A FORM OF AUTISM THAT CAN'T FUNCTION IN SOCIETY ON THEIR OWN, THEY END UP DOING SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN CRIMINALISED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT, AND THEY END UP IN JAIL. I THINK IT'S QUITE INTERESTING. RECENTLY IN NZ IT WAS REVEALED THAT WE HAD A LONE WOLF THREAT. AND PEOPLE MIGHT THINK THAT THESE KIND OF INCIDENTS ARE RARE, BUT WE LOOKED AT SOME RESEARCH THAT SAID BETWEEN 2009 AND FEBRUARY 2015, A DOMESTIC TERRORIST ATTACK OR FOILED ATTACK HAD HAPPENED ALMOST EVERY MONTH HERE IN THE UNITED STATES. SO THIS IS ACTUALLY AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM FOR YOUR COUNTRY, ISN'T IT? YEAH, IT IS, AND WE HAVE... WE CAN'T BLAME GUNS FOR EVERYTHING, BUT A LOT OF... IN THE US, BECAUSE THE ECONOMY IS NOT THAT GREAT, PEOPLE DON'T HAVE JOBS, THERE'S UNREST, THERE'S MORE DISUNITY NOW THAN EVER, AND SO WHAT'S HAPPENING IS AS SOCIETY'S MOVING FORWARD AT SUCH AN EXPEDITED PACE, YOU HAVE THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE LEFT IN THE BACKGROUND THAT ARE OUTCASTS. AND I THINK THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM. WE NEED TO START BRINGING THEM IN. SO INEQUALITY'S PART OF THE PROBLEM? I THINK INEQUALITY IN ALL FORMS ` RACE, AGE, GEOGRAPHY, EDUCATION. SO, YEAH, I THINK THAT COULD BE A PART OF THE ISSUE. BRINGS US RIGHT BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED ` THE POLITICS. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US, JAMES SCOTT. MUCH APPRECIATED. MANY BIG-NAME REPUBLICANS DESERTED THE PARTY AFTER TRUMP WON THE NOMINATION, BUT HE DID MANAGE TO ATTRACT SOME NEW SUPPORT. MINNESOTA MULTIMILLIONAIRE AND PILLOW-INFOMERCIAL KING MIKE LINDELL WAS ONE OF THEM. I SAT DOWN WITH HIM AT THE TRUMP HOTEL IN NEW YORK AND ASKED HIM WHY. WHEN HE CAME IN WITH HIS FAMILY BEHIND HIM, WHEN HE CAME IN TO ANNOUNCE THAT HE'D BEEN ELECTED, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD SEE THE HUMBLENESS. AND ALL OF THEM ` FROM HIM ALL THE WAY DOWN, EVEN HIS CHILDREN ` WERE READY TO CRY. IT WAS JUST LIKE A... IT WAS JUST AN AMAZING FEELING. I'VE NEVER... YOU KNOW, THEY'VE NEVER BEEN POLITICIANS, NONE OF THEM, AND THEY'RE JUST, LIKE... IT WAS A DIFFERENT` WE ALL FELT IT, AND WE ALL FELT, YOU KNOW... IT WAS AMAZING. AND WHAT WAS SO AMAZING ABOUT IT? THE CHANGE THAT HAPPENED IN AMERICA LAST NIGHT, THE VICTORY BY DONALD TRUMP? YOU FELT THE WHOLE CHANGE. YOU FELT THE CHANGE OF WHAT, YOU KNOW... THIS CHANGE OF THIS STUFF WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH, IT'S ALMOST LIKE DRAGGING US THROUGH MUD, AND WE DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS, AND YEARS GO BY, AND THEN ANOTHER FOUR YEARS GO BY, AND WE DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS OF WHAT, YOU KNOW... THEY MAKE PROMISES. POLITICIANS MAKE PROMISES ` 'WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS FOR THE INNER CITIES. WE'RE GOING TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE. ' WE'RE GOING TO HELP THAT PEOPLE' ` JUST TO GET VOTES, AND THEN YOU DON'T HEAR FROM THEM. THEY'RE NOT HANDS-ON WITH THE PEOPLE, AND WE DON'T HEAR FROM THEM FOR FOUR MORE YEARS, AND THEN THIS GOES ON AGAIN. AND MR TRUMP, WHO I KNOW PERSONALLY, THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM HIM ALL THE TIME. HE'S NOT GOING TO BREAK HIS PROMISES. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE. SO HOW WOULD YOU SUM UP WHAT HAPPENED, THEN? WHEN THEY SAID IT'S A MOVEMENT, I WOULD SAY WHAT HAPPENED WAS, BECAUSE ALL THE POLLS WAS WRONG, THIS WAS A MIRACLE; THIS WAS FROM GOD. HOW ELSE DO YOU EXPLAIN EVERY POLL BEING WRONG? THESE ARE POLLS DONE BY EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY, EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD, BASICALLY, DOING THEIR OWN POLLS, GOING, 'OH, YOU KNOW, MR TRUMP'S GOING TO LOSE. 'IT'S JUST BY HOW MUCH. IT SHOULD BE OFF BY THAT MUCH.' IT WASN'T EVEN CLOSE. THIS WAS DIVINE INTERVENTION. THIS WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW... WELL, HOW DID HE WIN, THEN? WHO VOTED FOR HIM? YOU KNOW, WHO VOTED FOR HIM? THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM ARE THE SILENT MAJORITY. THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED ARE THE SILENT MAJORITY. POLITICAL CORRECTNESS HAS JUST RUN SO RAMPANT IN THIS COUNTRY, AND EVERYBODY IS AFRAID TO SAY ANYTHING ANY MORE, TO STICK UP FOR THEMSELVES AND TO BE WHO THEY ARE. 'YOU CAN'T DO THIS. YOU CAN'T DO THAT.' EVERYBODY LIVES IN FEAR. SURE. SO DONALD TRUMP TAPS INTO THAT, DOESN'T HE? HE TAPS INTO THE SILENT MAJORITY THAT HAVE BEEN THE UNHEARD. WE'VE BEEN UNHEARD, YOU KNOW. I GUESS PARTIALLY I BET THERE'S A BIG MAJORITY THAT NEVER VOTED, SO WE HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT OURSELVES ` SOME OF US THAT DIDN'T VOTE IN PAST ELECTIONS. AND WE'LL HAVE MORE FROM WASHINGTON AFTER THE BREAK, WON'T WE, PADDY? YES. WE'LL BE JOINED BY OUR PANEL ` HADAS GOLD OF POLITICO AND PHILIP RUCKER FROM WASHINGTON POST. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH 'THE NATION' AND OUR SPECIAL WASHINGTON EDITION AND OUR ALL STARS PANEL. LET ME INTRODUCE THEM TO YOU ` HADAS GOLD FROM 'POLITICO', THANKS FOR JOINING US; AND PHILIP RUCKER FROM 'THE WASHINGTON POST'. GREAT TO HAVE YOU BOTH AND, OF COURSE, PADDY GOWER. LET'S START WITH THE TWO LOCALS. NZERS WANT TO KNOW ` THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTE, DECEMBER 19TH. IS THERE ANY CHANCE THAT TRUMP COULD BE REJECTED AS PRESIDENT? NO. (ALL LAUGH) WE'VE NEVER HAD THAT HAPPEN HERE IN THE UNITED STATES. THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE DECIDES WHO BECOMES PRESIDENT, AND IT'S MORE OF A FORMALITY AND A PROCESS THAT WILL TAKE PLACE BETWEEN NOW AND THE INAUGURATION DAY. SO NO PROSPECT WHATSOEVER OF A DEFECTION AS SUCH? TECHNICALLY, IT COULD HAPPEN. THESE WOULD BE CALLED FAITHLESS ELECTORS IF THEY CHOOSE TO GO AGAINST WHAT THE VOTE OF THEIR STATE OR DISTRICT DECIDED TO DO. BUT I THINK` FAITHLESS ` THAT'S PRETTY HARSH, ISN'T IT? YES. YES, BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE GOING AGAINST WHAT THE PEOPLE OF THEIR STATE VOTED FOR. I THINK HILLARY CLINTON WOULD NEED AT LEAST 20 OR 30 ELECTORS TO SWITCH, WHICH IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE, BECAUSE WHILE, AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND, THERE IS NO LAW, THEY WOULDN'T GET THROWN INTO JAIL FOR GOING AGAINST WHAT THE VOTE WAS, BUT THEY WOULD HAVE A LOT OF BACKLASH FROM VOTERS WHO ACTUALLY VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP. SO THERE YOU HAVE IT. DONALD TRUMP WILL BE PRESIDENT. YES. PADDY: SORRY, NZ. WE ALL SAW THESE PICTURES OF DONALD TRUMP AND OBAMA AT THE WHITE HOUSE. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF WHAT YOU SAW AND HOW COMFORTABLE HE DID OR DIDN'T LOOK? IT WAS A REMARKABLE SCENE TO JUST WATCH THEM INTERACTING TOGETHER, BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT TO THINK ABOUT THE BACKSTORY HERE. HERE YOU HAVE DONALD TRUMP, WHO HAS TRIED TO DELEGITIMISE PRESIDENT OBAMA AND WHERE HE WAS BORN AND CHALLENGING THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE ISSUE, NOT TO MENTION RAILING AGAINST HIM ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. PRESIDENT OBAMA EARLIER THIS WEEK ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL WAS CALLING DONALD TRUMP TEMPERAMENTALLY UNFIT TO BE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF. SO TO HAVE THE TWO OF THEM TOGETHER AND REALLY HAVE A RESPECTFUL TONE AND TALK ABOUT A SEAMLESS, PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER WAS PRETTY REMARKABLE. HE DEFINITELY LOOKED LIKE A DIFFERENT DONALD TRUMP THAN THE DONALD TRUMP THAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE. HE WAS MORE CONTRITE, HE WAS MORE ACCEPTING, HE WAS QUIETER, HE WAS A LITTLE BIT TONED DOWN. YOU STILL HAD THE DONALD TRUMP AND HOW HE SPOKE ABOUT HOW IT WAS A 15 MINUTE MEETING THAT TURNED INTO AN HOUR AND A HALF LONG MEETING. BUT TO SEE DONALD TRUMP PRAISE BARACK OBAMA IN THAT WAY AND SPEAK ABOUT HIM AND TALK ABOUT HOW HE WOULD SEEK HIS COUNSEL AND TALK TO HIM MANY TIMES IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS A DEPARTURE. I THINK, FOR BOTH MEN, THOUGH, IT WAS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE IN WHAT THEY WERE ACTING LIKE BEFORE. SOME PEOPLE WERE SAYING, 'OH, DONALD TRUMP LOOKED TERRIFIED.' WE DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS ACTUALLY TERRIFIED OR JUST ACTING LIKE A DIFFERENT PERSON. BARACK OBAMA PROBABLY ALSO LOOKED A LOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT PEOPLE WERE EXPECTING. YOU WERE THERE WHEN THE MOTORCADE CAME IN. I DON'T KNOW IF HE LOOKED TERRIFIED OR NOT, BUT HE CERTAINLY LOOKED LIKE ` WHAT'S THE PHRASE? ` HE LOOKED LIKE HE WAS IN DISNEYLAND IN SOME SENSES AND NOT IN A GOOD WAY; MORE LIKE HE'D GOT OFF OR WAS ABOUT TO GET ON A ROLLER COASTER THAT HE DIDN'T LIKE THE LOOK OF. SO, WHAT DO WE EXPECT FROM THE NEXT HUNDRED DAYS OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY? HE SAID HARSH THINGS DURING THE CAMPAIGN. ARE YOU EXPECTING HIM TO DIAL IT BACK? I THINK HE PROBABLY WILL TRY TO. THE BIGGEST SURPRISE MIGHT BE HOW NORMAL HE IS IN THE FIRST HUNDRED DAYS AS PRESIDENT. HE'S TRYING TO EXPAND HIS CIRCLE. HE'S GONNA HAVE A LOT OF POSITIONS IN THE GOVERNMENT TO FILL, AND HE'S GONNA HAVE TO REACH BEYOND HIS CORE SUPPORTERS IN ORDER TO FILL THEM. AND I THINK HE'S GONNA WANT TO AT LEAST TRY TO SHOW, AT LEAST INITIALLY, THAT HE'S GOING TO BE A PRESIDENT FOR ALL AMERICANS, NOT JUST FOR THE KIND OF HARD CORE BASE OF SUPPORT THAT HE HAD AT HIS RALLIES OUT IN THE COUNTRY. I THINK IT WILL BE REALLY KEY TO SEE WHO HE SURROUNDS HIMSELF WITH, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO HIS CHIEF OF STAFF IS GOING TO BE. THERE ARE REPORTS THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, RNC HEAD REINCE PRIEBUS IS BEING CONSIDERED, AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON WOULD BE VERY COMFORTABLE WITH REINCE PRIEBUS AS HIS CHIEF OF STAFF, BECAUSE THE CHIEF OF STAFF IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL POSITIONS WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE OTHER THAN THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. THERE'S ALSO TALK OF HIS CURRENT CAMPAIGN CEO STEVE BANNON AS BEING CHIEF OF STAFF. THOSE WOULD BE TWO VERY DIFFERENT PATHS TO TAKE. SO, FOR NZ AUDIENCE, REINCE PRIEBUS IS KIND OF THE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN, WHEREAS STEVE BANNON IS THE, SORT OF, PRETTY LOOSE UNIT HEAD OF BREITBART NEWS. YEAH, BREITBART IS PRETTY MUCH AN ALT-RIGHT NEWS SITE THAT REALLY PUSHED THE DONALD TRUMP PRESIDENCY, RUNS A LOT OF ALARMIST STORIES, STORIES THAT GO BEYOND INNUENDO. FOR EXAMPLE, STORIES ABOUT HOW IN A CERTAIN TOWN WHERE A YOGHURT FACTORY IS THE COMPANY THAT HIRES A LOT OF REFUGEES AND SOMEHOW THE TUBERCULOSIS NUMBERS HAVE NOW GONE UP IN THAT TOWN. IT IS ONE OF THOSE SITES THAT HILLARY CLINTON SPOKE OUT AGAINST IN ONE OF HER SPEECHES ABOUT THE ALT-RIGHT, AND WHEN THAT NEWS SITE'S HEAD WENT TO THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, A LOT OF PEOPLE SAW IT IS A FORMALISATION OF WHAT WAS ALREADY QUITE A STRONG ALLIANCE. SO IF WE SEE STEVE BANNON IN THAT CHIEF OF STAFF ROLE, WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK? WHAT SORT OF PRESIDENCY DO YOU THINK WE'RE IN FOR? IT WOULD BE REMARKABLE. I MEAN, STEPHEN BANNON IS SOMEBODY WHO REALLY WAS AN ARCHITECT OF THE CAMPAIGN STRATEGY IN THE CLOSING MONTHS TO FAN THESE RACIAL DIVIDES, THESE KIND OF TENSIONS AROUND GENDER AND RELIGION AND CREATE A CAMPAIGN THAT A LOT OF DEMOCRATS BUT ALSO MANY REPUBLICANS WERE DEEPLY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH. IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING THAT ALREADY SOME THINGS SEEM TO HAVE DISAPPEARED FROM HIS WEBSITE, LIKE SOME OF THE MORE EXTREME POLICIES, LIKE BANNING MUSLIMS. THAT'S BACK. IT'S COME BACK? THE WASHINGTON POST ACTUALLY REPORTED ON THAT. IT DIDN'T LAST LONG, THEN, DID IT? SO, ARE YOU EXPECTING THIS TO BE PAYBACK WITH POSITIONS AND APPOINTMENTS? ARE YOU EXPECTING HIM TO RETURN FAVOURS AND SEND SOME PEOPLE TO THE NAUGHTY STEP, AS SUCH? IF THERE'S ONE THING WE KNOW ABOUT DONALD TRUMP IS THAT HE PRIZES LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE. SO YOU SHOULD EXPECT TO SEE PEOPLE LIKE CHRIS CHRISTIE, SENATOR JEFF SESSIONS, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI, WHO WERE LOYAL COUNSELLORS THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN, HAVE, YOU KNOW, THEIR OWN PICK; THEY CAN BE WHATEVER THEY WANT TO BE IN THIS GOVERNMENT. I THINK TRUMP IS GONNA PRIZE LOYALTY. NOW, THE REPUBLICANS STILL HAVE CONTROL OF THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE. ARE THEY GOING TO KEEP HIM IN CHECK? THAT WILL BE A BIG QUESTION FOR THEM, BECAUSE I HAVE A FEELING THAT THEY WILL WORK WITH HIM AS MUCH AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN. I'M SURE A LOT OF DEMOCRATS ARE SORT OF HOPING THAT SHOULD ANY OF THE MORE EXTREME POLICIES, FOR EXAMPLE, THE MUSLIM BAN, ACTUALLY STARTS SOMEHOW BECOMING REALITY, THAT SOMEBODY LIKE PAUL RYAN WILL TRY AND HOLD THAT IN CHECK. BUT` BUT PAUL RYAN WAS SAYING` I MEAN, THE PHRASE HE USED WAS, 'THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO BIG,' YOU KNOW, INDICATING MAYBE LARGE CHANGES AND THAT THEY WERE GOING TO LET HIM HAVE HIS REIGN, IN ESSENCE. I THINK WHEN PAUL RYAN SAYS GOING BIG, I THINK HE MEANS REPUBLICAN POLICY IDEAS, PROBABLY THINGS LIKE TAXES AND INFRASTRUCTURE. WHEN PAUL RYAN IS TALKING ABOUT A MANDATE` COS YOU SHOULD REMEMBER PAUL RYAN CAME OUT` WHEN DONALD TRUMP TALKED ABOUT A MUSLIM BAN, HE CAME OUT VERY STRONGLY AGAINST THIS AND SAID THAT'S NOT WHO WE ARE AS AMERICANS. AND IN ORDER... THERE IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE A DANCE, A BALANCING DANCE BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND THE CONGRESS OVER GETTING ALL OF THESE THINGS DONE THAT THEY WANT TO GET DONE WHILE STILL POTENTIALLY GOING AFTER SOME OF THESE PROPOSALS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD DURING THIS CAMPAIGN. BUT SOME OF THE PROPOSALS THAT WE'RE HEARING ABOUT FOR THE INITIAL FIRST FEW MONTHS ARE PROPOSALS THAT, I THINK, A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE HAPPY WITH, INCLUDING DEMOCRATS, FOR EXAMPLE, AN INFRASTRUCTURE INITIATIVE. WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE OUT ON THE STREET PROTESTING, YOU KNOW, CARRYING THE SIGNS AROUND THAT 'NOT MY PRESIDENT'. ARE YOU EXPECTING THAT TO FADE AWAY OR ESCALATE? YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE HERE FOR A WHILE. I DON'T THINK PEOPLE ARE GONNA BE QUIET ABOUT DONALD TRUMP. THERE'S A RICH TRADITION HERE OF AMERICAN CITIZENS BEING ABLE TO PROTEST THEIR PRESIDENT, AND YOU SAW IT WITH GEORGE W BUSH AROUND THE TIME OF THE IRAQ WAR, YOU'VE SEEN IT AT MANY POINTS IN THE COURSE OF THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY IN PARTICULAR AROUND THE CREATION OF HIS HEALTHCARE LAW. AND SO I EXPECT THERE TO BE AN ACTIVE AND VOCAL PROTEST MOVEMENT AGAINST DONALD TRUMP. I THINK IT DEPENDS A LOT ON HOW DONALD TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION REACT TO THE PROTESTERS, REACT TO THE FEARS THAT A LOT OF IMMIGRANTS, A LOT OF LATINOS HAVE RIGHT NOW, A LOT OF MUSLIMS HAVE RIGHT NOW. A LOT OF THESE PROTESTS ARE SOME` A FEW OF THEM ARE BORN OUT OF FEAR ` FEAR THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE MASS DEPORTATIONS, FEAR ABOUT BANS ON A CERTAIN RELIGION. IF DONALD TRUMP AND THE ADMINISTRATION COME OUT PRETTY QUICKLY AND STRONGLY AND SAY, YOU KNOW, 'THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN,' OR, YOU KNOW, 'WE NEED TO REJECT RACISM,' OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT COULD PROBABLY HELP QUELL THESE. I COULD SEE THEM HAPPENING, THOUGH, FOR A DECENT AMOUNT OF TIME. I CAN'T SEE THEM DYING DOWN ANY TIME SOON, BUT I'M SURE, LISTEN, EVERYBODY HAS A LIFE TO LIVE, AND EVERYBODY WILL PROBABLY NEED TO GO ON WITH THEIR LIVES AND GO BACK TO NORMAL AND SEE THAT THE SUN WILL STILL RISE TOMORROW. PADDY, HE'S TALKED ABOUT, I SUPPOSE, INCREASINGLY ISOLATIONIST TYPE POLICIES AND ANTI-GLOBALISATION. WHAT DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO MEAN FOR US ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD? WELL, IT'S ALREADY MEANT SOMETHING REALLY REAL AND PRACTICAL WITH THE END OF THE TRANS-PACIFIC PARTNERSHIP, WHICH NZ WAS A PARTNER OF, WHICH NZ WAS PART OF. THAT THING'S DEAD AND BURIED NOW ALREADY JUST WITHIN A DAY OR SO. THE REPUBLICANS HAVE COME OUT AND SAID IT WON'T HAPPEN. SO, YEAH, WHAT IT MEANS FOR US IS SOMEHOW FINDING A WAY TO RE-ENGAGE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND TRY AND GET CLOSE TO TRUMP. NZ WILL BE CURIOUS, THE NZ GOVERNMENT WILL BE CURIOUS AND TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO, YOU KNOW, GET IN THE DOOR. IT'S PRETTY BUSY. ALL RIGHT, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE FOR THE MOMENT. WE WILL BE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH THE NATION IN WASHINGTON AND OUR PANEL. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS NOW. HOW MUCH OF CLINTON'S FAILURE CAN BE LAID AT THE FEET OF PRESIDENT OBAMA? WAS IT A REFERENDUM ON HIS POLICIES IN HIS TERM AS WELL? I DON'T THINK SO. HIS APPROVAL RATING IS QUITE HIGH, HE'S A POPULAR FIGURE OUT IN THE COUNTRY. I THINK HILLARY CLINTON HAD A LOT OF STRUCTURAL AND INHERENT WEAKNESSES IN HER OWN CANDIDACY. UH, THERE WAS A CHANGE OF ENVIRONMENT IN THE COUNTRY. PEOPLE WANTED SOMETHING DIFFERENT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T LIKE PRESIDENT OBAMA. IT JUST MEANS THEY DON'T WANT THIS, KIND OF, CAREER POLITICIAN WHO'S PART OF THE` ...DYNASTY. THE DYNASTY. IT REALLY IS A DYNASTY. UH, SORT OF OUR ROYAL FAMILY. AND SO THAT WAS ONE OF HER PROBLEMS. WHAT DO YOU THINK, HADAS? UM, I AGREE WITH PHIL THAT OBAMA DID HAVE QUITE HIGH APPROVAL RATINGS. AND CLINTON DID HAVE SOME NEGATIVES THAT SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME OVERCOMING. THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT SHE DIDN'T GET SUPPORT, BUT THE ENTHUSIASM WAS REALLY LACKING, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT HILLARY CLINTON WAS, UH, RUNNING AGAINST DONALD TRUMP'S TEMPERAMENT, RIGHT? BUT WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING AT WHAT DONALD TRUMP PROMISED TO BRING THEM AND WHAT HILLARY CLINTON WAS PROMISING TO BRING THEM, THEY SAW TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. AND ONE OF THEM, TO THEM, WAS A MUCH BIGGER CHANGE, AND THEY KNEW IT WAS RISKY. WHEN YOU TALK TO DONALD TRUMP VOTERS, THEY DON'T LIKE NECESSARILY HOW HE ACTS AND WHAT HE SAYS. WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE TWO OPTIONS, EITHER THEY DIDN'T VOTE FOR EITHER OF THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE DISGUSTED BY BOTH OF THEM, OR THEY SAID, 'IF I'M GOING TO GO WITH ONE OF THEM, 'I MIGHT AS WELL GO WITH THE ONE THAT KIND OF, LIKE, 'TEARS EVERYTHING DOWN AND TRIES TO BUILD IT BACK UP AGAIN.' TAKE THAT RISK. YEAH, I WAS REALLY SURPRISED, AND YOU GUYS WOULD HAVE SEEN THIS, ABOUT HOW FORGIVING DONALD TRUMP VOTERS OF HIM AND THE FACT THAT THEY KIND OF ACTUALLY DIDN'T REALLY BELIEVE HE'S GOING TO DO EVERYTHING HE SAYS HE'S GOING TO DO AND WERE FORGIVING OF EVERYTHING THAT HE'S DONE. WHAT'S BEHIND THAT? WHY ARE THEY SORT OF, LIKE, SO EASY ON HIM, HIS OWN VOTERS? THERE IS A REPORTER NAMED SALENA ZITO WHO SAW THIS REALLY COMING FROM THE BEGINNING, AND PART OF THE REASON IS SHE LIVES OUT IN PITTSBURGH. UH, SHE LIVES OUT` THIS IS A CITY IN THE MIDDLE OF PENNSYLVANIA IN PART OF THIS RUST BELT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE. THESE WHITE VOTERS THAT REALLY WON DONALD TRUMP OVER, AND WHAT SHE SAID, SHE WROTE AN ARTICLE THAT SAID VOTERS TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY BUT NOT LITERALLY; JOURNALISTS TAKE HIM LITERALLY BUT NOT SERIOUSLY. AND I THINK THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE THERE. SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK, PHILIP, THAT HILLARY IS GOING TO DO? WHERE DOES SHE GO? WHERE DOES SHE END UP? SHE'S OVER. (LAUGHS) SHE'S OVER! SHE'S OUT WALKING THE DOGS. THE DYNASTY HAS COME TO A CLOSE. NOT NECESSARILY. CHELSEA CLINTON. > OK. YEAH. YOU KNOW, LOOK, SHE'S UP IN HER YEARS. SHE'S NOT REALLY GOING TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN. I THINK SHE'LL PROBABLY TAKE A GOOD, LONG BREAK AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC EYE, AND MAYBE SHE'LL RETURN TO GIVING SOME PAID SPEECHES. MAYBE SHE'LL WRITE A MEMOIR ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN. MAYBE SHE'LL DO SOME CHARITABLE WORK WITH HER FOUNDATION. UH, I DON'T KNOW. BUT SHE'S A GRANDMOTHER. SHE WANTS TO GET BACK TO HER PRIVATE LIFE, I THINK, NOW, AND THE POLITICAL CAREER IS OVER. HADAS, ARE YOU SERIOUS ABOUT CHELSEA? UH, THERE WAS A REPORT TODAY THE CHELSEA CLINTON IS POTENTIALLY BEING GROOMED FOR A CONGRESSIONAL SEAT IN NEW YORK. I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH STOCK I CAN PUT INTO THAT RIGHT NOW. UM, BUT I THINK THAT PROBABLY ALL COMES DOWN TO CHELSEA CLINTON'S DECISION IN WHETHER SHE WANTS TO GET IN THAT AS WELL. SHE'S NOT AS MUCH OF A` I MEAN, SHE'S QUITE POISED. SHE CAN SPEAK WELL, BUT SHE'S` WE STILL DON'T KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT HER AS KIND OF A POLITICIAN, IF SHE HAS THAT. WHAT ABOUT THIS MICHELLE OBAMA IN 2020 SORT OF THING? HOW`? NO. IS THAT A NO? < IT'S A NO. WHY IS THAT SUCH A`? PEOPLE CAN DREAM ABOUT IT. I MEAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF DREAM SCENARIOS, AND YOU KNOW WHAT? MAYBE IT'LL HAPPEN. I MEAN, WE SAW DONALD TRUMP ELECTED AS PRESIDENT. ZERO INDICATION THE FIRST LADY WANTS TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT. SO WHO IS IT GOING TO BE, THEN? ELIZABETH WARREN? OR IS IT GOING TO BE SOMEONE THAT THE WORLD DOESN'T KNOW YET IN TERMS OF THE DEMOCRAT SIDE? AT THE MOMENT, THE LEADER WOULD HAVE TO BE TIM KAINE, WHO WAS HILLARY CLINTON'S VICE PRESIDENTIAL RUNNING MATE. HE'S RETURNING TO HIS SEAT IN THE SENATE, REPRESENTING VIRGINIA. HE'S YOUNG, HE'S GOT A LOT OF IDEAS. HE COULD HAVE A FUTURE IF HE WANTS IT. CERTAINLY THERE'S A LOT OF POWER BEHIND ELIZABETH WARREN. UH, AND THERE MAY BE SOME NEW PROGRESSIVE LEADERS WHO KIND OF RISE UP THAT WE'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW. AND WHAT ABOUT THE PARTY ITSELF? COS, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A MESSAGE TO THEM. DO PEOPLE WANT A DIFFERENT KIND OF DEMOCRATIC PARTY? I THINK WE ARE SEEING THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO DO A LOT OF SOUL-SEARCHING AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THEY WENT WRONG AND HOW THEY CAN BE BETTER. UM, THERE'S ALREADY A LEADERSHIP RACE. CONGRESSMAN KEITH ELLISON IS ALREADY IN TALKS ABOUT BEING THE NEXT LEADER. FORMER DNC LEADER HOWARD DEAN IS NOW TALKING ABOUT COMING BACK. THERE'S GOING TO BE A REALIGNMENT. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WONDERING IF THAT REALIGNMENT IS GOING TO BE TOWARDS THE LEFT, TOWARDS BERNIE SANDERS, TOWARDS ELIZABETH WARREN. THE COALITION'S THINKING THAT A LOT OF BERNIE SANDERS VOTERS ARE SAYING HE WOULD HAVE BEAT DONALD TRUMP. YOU GUYS ALL SAW THIS COMING. THERE'S A LOT OF ANGER AMONGST THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. YOU ALL SAW THIS COMING, AND YET YOU STILL ALIGNED YOURSELVES WITH THE CANDIDATE WHO WAS GOING TO LOSE TO DONALD TRUMP. THAT'S A QUESTION I REALLY WANNA ASK BOTH OF YOU. COULD BERNIE SANDERS HAVE BEATEN DONALD TRUMP IF HE WAS THERE? I THINK HE MIGHT HAVE. WOW. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BERNIE SANDERS AND HILLARY CLINTON IS THAT BERNIE SANDERS HAD A MOVEMENT BEHIND HIM. THERE WAS ENERGY, THERE WAS ENTHUSIASM, AND HE GAVE PEOPLE A REASON TO VOTE FOR HIM. AND I THINK HAD HE RUN IN THIS GENERAL ELECTION, SURE, DONALD TRUMP WOULD HAVE TORN HIM APART, CALLED HIM A COMMUNIST AND SO FORTH, BUT THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN AN IMPASSIONED CORE BASE OF SUPPORTERS BEHIND HIM, AND IT COULD HAVE MADE THE DIFFERENCE. I'M NOT SAYING IT WOULD HAVE, BUT IT COULD HAVE. AND HE COULD HAVE PICKED UP SOME OF THOSE RUST-BELT WHITE VOTERS WHO FELT FORGOTTEN ABOUT, BECAUSE HE WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO FELT FORGOTTEN ABOUT, AND HE WOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN PICKING UP THOSE DEMOCRATS THAT WERE BEHIND HILLARY CLINTON. I'M SURE THEY WOULD HAVE HAD AN EASIER TIME FALLING IN LINE BEHIND BERNIE SANDERS THAN BERNIE SANDERS VOTERS WOULD HAVE HAD FALLING IN LINE BEHIND HILLARY CLINTON. I TELL YOU, SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T SEE THIS COMING WERE THE POLLSTERS. YOU KNOW, BECAUSE ALL THE POLLS WERE SAYING 70% PROBABILITY OF CLINTON OR MORE. WHAT WENT WRONG THERE? WAS THERE SOME MISSING GROUP WHO WASN'T COUNTED? I'M SURE THERE'S GOING TO BE AN AUTOPSY ON THAT. UH, THE POLLSTERS ARE ACTUALLY LITERALLY DOING AN AUTOPSY RIGHT NOW. THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF POLLSTERS ` I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S THEIR EXACT NAME ` BUT THE ASSOCIATION OF POLLSTERS ARE DOING A STUDY RIGHT NOW ON HOW THEY GOT IT WRONG. UM, SOME OF THE POLLSTERS ARE SAYING, 'LISTEN. WE WERE WITHIN OUR MARGIN OF ERROR, 'AND THERE'S MARGIN OF ERROR FOR A REASON.' UM, I THINK ONE GROUP THAT THEY WERE MISSING WAS PEOPLE WHO HAD NEVER VOTED BEFORE. THESE WERE PEOPLE WHO NEVER REALLY PARTICIPATED IN THE PROCESS BEFORE, AND THEY DON'T GET COUNTED, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES POLLS UTILISE PREVIOUS VOTING ACTIVITY AS WHAT THEY GO OFF OF. WHAT I THINK WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS THERE WERE SOME POLITICAL SCIENTISTS WHO DID PROPERLY PREDICT THIS. THEY HAVE THEIR OWN MODELS. THE WASHINGTON POST WROTE ABOUT THIS ONE POLITICAL SCIENTIST WHO HAS THE 13 KEYS. HE SAID` I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REMEMBER THIS, BUT HE SAID FOR THE LONGEST TIME, 'IT'S GOING TO BE DONALD TRUMP. 'SEVEN OUT OF MY 13 KEYS POINT TOWARDS DONALD TRUMP.' AND HE HAS GOTTEN IT RIGHT SINCE, I THINK, THE '60S OR '70S, AND HE WAS RIGHT AGAIN. THESE POLITICAL SCIENTISTS, THESE PEOPLE WHO DON'T NECESSARILY WORK OFF THE NUMBERS OF THE POLLSTERS WERE WORKING OFF, THEY DID SEE IT. IT'S JUST THAT US IN THE DC, NEW YORK BUBBLE, WE TEND TO FOCUS ON THESE NUMBERS AND THE FACTS. AND IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THE DATA, THE RAW DATA THEY WERE GETTING, WAS NOT COMING FROM THE RIGHT PLACES. IT WAS RIGHT, BUT WHAT THEY WERE DOING WITH THE DATA` IT'S NOT LIKE THEY HAD BAD MATH, BUT THE DATA THEY HAD ORIGINALLY MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN CORRECT. BEFORE WE GO, TRUMP HAS HAD A REALLY ADVERSARIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRESS. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD APPRECIATE THIS. BANNED FROM PRESS CONFERENCES, ETC. SO HOW'S HE GOING TO WORK WITH THE PRESS CORP FROM HERE ON IN? WHAT'S IT GOING TO BE LIKE FOR YOU GUYS? THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. I MEAN, I WORK AT THE WASHINGTON POST. WE WERE BANNED FOR SEVERAL MONTH, AS WAS POLITICO. UH, I THINK AT THE BEGINNING, THERE'LL PROBABLY BE A CONCILIATORY, SORT OF, RESPECTFUL TONE, BUT WE'LL HAVE TO SEE. I MEAN, THE COVERAGE WILL BE ADVERSARIAL, AS IT IS WITH EVERY PRESIDENT. AND WE'LL SEE IF HE HAS TOUGH ENOUGH SKIN` ...TO BEAR IT. ALL RIGHT. WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE. IT HAS BEEN FANTASTIC TO HAVE YOU ON THE SHOW. THANK YOU SO MUCH. IT'S BEEN GREAT TO BE HERE IN WASHINGTON. THANKS FOR WATCHING. WE'LL BE BACK IN NZ AGAIN NEXT WEEK AT THE SAME TIME, EH, PADDY? YES, WE WILL. JUST A DIFFERENT PLACE. AOTEAROA. IT'S A BEEN A SHOCK AND QUITE SURPRISING OUT HERE, AND WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO GETTING HOME. THESE GUYS, OF COURSE, HAVE GOT TO GET BACK TO A LOT OF WORK. THANKS FOR WATCHING. THIS IS PAINFUL, AND IT WILL BE FOR A LONG TIME. ALL CHANT: WE REJECT THE PRESIDENT ELECT! WE REJECT THE PRESIDENT ELECT! NOW IT'S TIME FOR AMERICA TO BIND THE WOUNDS OF DIVISION. HAVE TO GET TOGETHER. ALL CHANT: USA! USA! USA! HE'S OUR LAST HOPE! WE NOW ARE GONNA... WANNA DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO HELP YOU SUCCEED, BECAUSE IF YOU SUCCEED, THEN THE COUNTRY SUCCEEDS. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 THIS PROGRAMME WAS MADE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE NZ ON AIR PLATINUM FUND.