GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO 'THE NATION'. I'M LISA OWEN. AND I'M PATRICK GOWER. TODAY ` ARE WE READY FOR ANOTHER MAJOR QUAKE? SO THE SLIPS HERE ARE HORRENDOUS TO PUT A FINAL POINT ON IT, AND YOU'VE GOT TO BELIEVE IT'S IN THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO RESOLVE THESE ISSUES. DID WE LEARN ANYTHING FROM THE CANTERBURY QUAKES, AND IS OUR WARNING SYSTEM UP TO SCRATCH? THEN ` THE AMERICAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS TELLS US WHAT'S WRONG WITH WHAT RUSSIA IS DOING IN SYRIA. THIS REGIME CAN INVITE WHOEVER IT WANTS IN, AND IT'S DONE SO; IT'S INVITED IRAN IN, HEZBOLLAH, RUSSIA. BUT THAT DOESN'T GIVE YOU A FREE PASS TO MURDER PEOPLE. SO WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND WHAT THE UNITED STATES IS DOING IN YEMEN? AND MT ROSKILL BY-ELECTION CANDIDATES MICHAEL WOOD AND PARMJEET PARMAR ARE IN THE STUDIO TO DEBATE THE BIG ISSUES OF THE ELECTORATE AND THE NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THE VOTE THERE. AND WE WRAP UP THE WEEK WITH OUR PANEL ` SIMON WILSON AND TRACY WATKINS ` AND COMEDIANS JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US TODAY. WE DO LOVE HEARING FROM YOU, SO GET IN TOUCH. OUR DETAILS ARE ON SCREEN NOW. AND IF YOU'RE ON TWITTER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ALONG WITH OUR TWITTER PANEL ` RADIO NZ'S SARAH ROBSON AND FAIRFAX POLITICAL REPORTER SAM SACHDEVA ON #NATIONTV3. THAT'S A PRETTY COOL TWITTER PANEL. NOW, AS THOSE AFFECTED BY THIS WEEK'S EARTHQUAKES STRUGGLE TO COME TO TERMS WITH THEM, THE GOVERNMENT IS GRAPPLING WITH OTHER QUESTIONS. WAS THE RESPONSE GOOD ENOUGH? AND HOW WILL WE PAY FOR ALL THE DAMAGE? NOW, AFTER THE FIRST OF THE CANTERBURY EARTHQUAKES IN SEPTEMBER 2010, FINANCE MINISTER BILL ENGLISH WARNED THAT THE COUNTRY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD ANOTHER MAJOR QUAKE UNTIL 2020. BUT CHANCES ARE THERE WILL BE ANOTHER BIG ONE IN THE NEXT MONTH. I SPOKE TO CIVIL DEFENCE MINISTER` ACTING CIVIL DEFENCE MINISTER GERRY BROWNLEE JUST BEFORE COMING ON AIR THIS MORNING AND BEGAN BY ASKING HIM HOW BIG A PROBLEM IS IT THAT GEONET ISN'T STAFFED 24 HOURS A DAY. WELL, IT DIDN'T STOP EVERYONE KNOWING THERE HAD BEEN AN EARTHQUAKE, DID IT? YEAH, BUT WE MIGHT HAVE JUST BEEN LUCKY. I MEAN, THAT'S` NO, NO, PADDY, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THE FELT EFFECT OF THIS WAS ENORMOUS. PEOPLE KNEW WHAT HAD HAPPENED, AND WITHIN A VERY SHORT TIME, GEONET WAS ABLE TO PICK UP AS THEY WERE ALERTED THE SAME WAY AS EVERYBODY ELSE ON THE SIZE OF IT. THEY HAD TO REVISE THAT LATER, AS IT WAS NOT A 20-SECOND, 30-SECOND EARTHQUAKE. IT WAS ONE AND A HALF MINUTES, SO IT GOT ELEVATED UP. THE REALITY IS WE ALL FELT WHAT HAPPENED AND KNOW THE EFFECTS OF WHAT'S HAPPENED. YEAH, BUT AS MINISTER OF CIVIL DEFENCE, OR ACTING MINISTER OF CIVIL DEFENCE, IS IT REALLY GOOD ENOUGH TO NOT HAVE THE EARTHQUAKE MONITORING SYSTEM NOT STAGED 24 HOURS A DAY BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ENOUGH FUNDING? I MEAN` WELL, HANG ON A MINUTE. THE SENSORS ARE OPERATING 24/7. THE INTERNATIONAL CONNECTIONS ARE OPERATING 24/7. AND THIS IS` YOU NEED TO GET SOMEONE FROM GNS TO FULLY EXPLAIN HOW IT ALL WORKS, BUT A LOT OF THEM` WITH RESPECT, THEY HAVE EXPLAINED HOW IT WORKS, AND THEY SAID THEY DON'T HAVE SOMEONE IN THERE 24 HOURS A DAY. YEAH, I'M JUST TRYING TO TELL YOU` THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY. I'M JUST TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A PERSON THERE 24/7, THE MONITORING TAKES PLACE 24/7 AS PART OF A BIG WIDE NETWORK. OKAY, WELL, WE CAN GO AROUND` WE CAN SPEND` WE CAN GO AROUND AND AROUND IN CIRCLES HERE. WE ARE. YOU'RE TAKING US ROUND. THE QUESTION IS WILL THE GOVERNMENT STEP UP AND FUND IT SO WE'VE GOT SOMEONE IN THERE 24 HOURS A DAY OR NOT? WELL, I'VE JUST EXPLAINED TO YOU WHAT THE SITUATION IS, HOW GNS WORKS AND HOW GEONET IS OWNED AND OPERATED, AND, OF COURSE, WE'LL WANT TO HAVE A TALK ABOUT WHAT WE DO IN THE FUTURE. AND HOW QUICKLY WILL THAT HAPPEN? BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING HERE A 95% CHANCE OF ANOTHER EARTHQUAKE IN THE NEXT 30 DAYS. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE WORKING WITH, THE NATURE OF IT. AND IT WOULD NOT MATTER. IT WOULD NOT MATTER WHO IS THERE MONITORING. THEY CANNOT STOP THAT HAPPENING. THAT IS A MATHEMATICAL CALCULATION OF PROBABILITY, NOT FACT THAT IT WILL HAPPEN, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE DECAY CURVE, EACH DAY THAT GOES BY, THAT PROBABILITY CHANGES. BUT LET ME VERY CLEAR ` WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS SOMEONE SITTING AT A DESK 24 HOURS WAITING TO SEE IF ANYTHING HAPPENS WON'T STOP IT HAPPENING IF IT'S GOING TO AT ALL. OKAY, WELL, LET'S MOVE ON AND LOOK AT THE TSUNAMI ALERT SYSTEM, THEN, BECAUSE THAT'S ANOTHER PART OF THIS CIVIL DEFENCE REACTION THAT IS SIMPLY NOT WORKING ` TAKING AN HOUR THE OTHER NIGHT TO GET AN ALERT OUT ABOUT THE TSUNAMI. IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH, MINISTER? OH, LOOK, I THINK THERE'LL BE A NUMBER OF REASONS WHY THAT TOOK SO LONG, BUT IN GENERAL, I'D HAVE TO SAY THAT WE DO WANT TO HAVE A GOOD LOOK AT HOW THAT ALERTING SYSTEM WORKS, BUT PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE FIRST INDICATIONS WERE THAT THE EPICENTRE OF THIS WAS INLAND, AND IT WAS. WHAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT EARLY STAGE WAS THAT IT HAD CREATED, EFFECTIVELY, A FAULT THAT RAN ABOUT 150KM NORTH-EAST INTO THE SEA, AND AT THAT POINT, A TSUNAMI BECAME A POSSIBILITY. YES, AND AT THAT POINT, WHEN IT BECAME A POSSIBILITY, IT STILL TOOK HOURS AFTER THAT FOR THE INFORMATION TO BE DISSEMINATED TO THE 16 LOCAL BOARDS. NO, IT WAS JUST UNDER AN HOUR, AND WHEN IT GETS TO THOSE LOCAL AREAS, THEY MAKE THE DECISION ABOUT HOW THEY PUT THOSE ALERTS OUT. YES, AND SOME OF THOSE LOCAL BOARDS, AS YOU KNOW, TOOK HOURS TO GET IT OUT TO THE PUBLIC. THAT'S RIGHT, AND THAT'S A PROBLEM, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE GOT TO SORT OUT. THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT, AND I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE WITH YOU ON THIS ONE, PADDY. AND HOW QUICKLY WILL YOU SORT IT IS THE QUESTION. WELL, AT THE MOMENT, WE'RE DEALING WITH SOME PRETTY BIG ISSUES ABOUT ACCESS INTO PARTS OF NZ THAT ARE ISOLATED, SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW QUICKLY THEY CAN BE RECONNECTED, AND OF COURSE, THE WIDER ECONOMIC EFFECTS ON NOT ONLY THOSE AREAS, THOSE FAMILIES AND INDIVIDUALS, BUT ON THE WIDER COUNTRY AS WELL. BUT IN THE BIG MIX OF EVERYTHING WE DO, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE'RE DEFINITELY GOING TO BE LOOKING AT. BUT IS IT URGENT? CAN YOU REASSURE THE PUBLIC? THEY'RE SCARED, GERRY BROWNLEE. CAN YOU REASSURE THEM THAT YOU WILL DO SOMETHING URGENTLY ABOUT THE TSUNAMI ALERT? I THINK EVERY LOCAL AUTHORITY AROUND THE COUNTRY WILL BE LOOKING TO IMPROVE THAT AS WE SPEAK. THEY WILL HAVE DONE THAT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, AND I NOW THAT THE CIVIL DEFENCE BUNKER IN WELLINGTON IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE RESPONSE THAT CAME FROM THAT. SO YES, THERE WILL BE SOMETHING IMMEDIATE. BUT LET ME BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS` MINISTER, SORRY TO INTERRUPT, BECAUSE THIS IS ALL COMING BACK TO ONE THING, ISN'T IT? WE GOT LUCKY. YOU GOT LUCKY. CIVIL DEFENCE GOT LUCKY. WE GOT LUCKY THE OTHER NIGHT. IF IT HAD BEEN A HIGH TIDE, IF IT HAD BEEN BIGGER, IF IT HAD BEEN IN A DIFFERENT PLACE... WE WEREN'T READY, MINISTER. WELL, I DISPUTE THE LAST PART. THE FIRST PART, I THINK ANY TIME THAT YOU CAN EXPERIENCE AN EVENT OF THIS SIZE AND HAVE THE... SO FEW PEOPLE, TWO PEOPLE LOSING THEIR LIVES ONLY ` AND IT'S STILL TOO MANY ` THEN YOU MIGHT SAY THAT YOU GOT LUCKY. I'M NOT SURE THAT THOSE PEOPLE WOULD CALL THEMSELVES LUCKY. NO, BUT DO YOU AGREE THAT NZ AND THE GOVERNMENT`? PADDY, YOU'RE DOING MOST OF THE TALKING. I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M HERE. NO, I DON'T, BECAUSE IN REALITY, WE'RE A COUNTRY THAT LIVES WITH ITS RISK. WE ALL KNOW THAT, AND I'VE GOT TO MAKE THIS POINT ` THE BIGGEST WARNING YOU EVER GET FOR A TSUNAMI POSSIBILITY IS THE EARTHQUAKE ITSELF. NOW, IT WOULD BE GOOD IF THE` AND IT WILL BE IMPROVED IN THE FUTURE SO THAT THE PARTICULAR TSUNAMI RISK, WHICH CAN'T BE KNOWN IMMEDIATELY, WILL BE MUCH SHARPER IN GETTING ALERTS OUT TO PEOPLE. WE'RE ACTUALLY` CAN I TELL YOU THIS TOO`? THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PLACE` LET ME TELL YOU THIS MUCH` THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PLACE TO PICK UP ON THAT, BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN` NO, I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING ELSE. NO, BUT THERE HAS BEEN` LOOK, YOU'RE FIXATED ON THIS, AND I DO WANT TO TELL YOU THIS. YES? THE FIRST THING IS FOR SOME TIME NOW, WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT A NATIONAL ALERTING SYSTEM FOR THESE TYPES OF EVENTS, AND THE REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL TO THE TELCOS, WHO HAVE TO BE INVOLVED IN THIS, IS IN THE STAGE OF BEING PREPARED. IT'S VERY CLOSE TO GOING OUT. THIS IS A` JUST FOR THE VIEWER, THIS IS A TEXT-MESSAGE ALERT SYSTEM, ISN'T IT? THAT'S RIGHT, AND THERE IS A CONTINGENCY INSIDE THE BUDGET TO PAY FOR THAT, AND WE WOULD HOPE TO GET THAT UP AND RUNNING AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. HOW LONG IS 'AS SOON AS POSSIBLE'? WILL WE HAVE A TEXT-MESSAGE ALERT SYSTEM WHEN? MONTHS? YEARS? WHEN? WELL, THE TIMELINE I WAS GIVEN YESTERDAY I HAVE CONCLUDED IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. I'VE ASKED THEM TO RELOOK AT THAT. OKAY, SO WHAT WAS THE TIMELINE YESTERDAY, MINISTER? WHAT WAS THE TIMELINE YESTERDAY? WELL, LET ME` CAN I JUST EXPLAIN WHAT GOES IN BEHIND IT, PADDY? BECAUSE THERE'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF` OBVIOUSLY A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF SOFTWARE THAT'S GOT TO GET PUT IN PLACE AS WELL AS VARIOUS OTHER ELECTRONIC PROTOCOLS THAT I'M NOT FULLY OVER. BUT I WAS TOLD THAT IT COULD TAKE UP TO 18 MONTHS, AND I THINK THAT'S A LITTLE TOO LONG. RIGHT, SO 18 MONTHS BEFORE WE GET THIS TEXT-MESSAGE ALERT SYSTEM IN THIS COUNTRY WHEN WE'VE GOT A 95% WARNING OF ANOTHER EARTHQUAKE IN THE NEXT MONTH? I TELL YOU WHAT, PADDY. I THINK YOU AND THE REST OF YOUR FRONT-LINE PEOPLE THAT I'VE HEARD MAKING ALL SORTS OF PRONOUNCEMENTS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS SHOULD GET TOGETHER IN A ROOM AND TELL US HOW YOU DO IT QUICKER, BECAUSE YOU ALL SEEM TO KNOW A LOT MORE THAN THE REST OF US. NO, WE'RE SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF KIWIS, MINISTER, WHO ARE SCARED AND WORRIED` AND THOSE KIWIS EXPECT US TO DO IT PROPERLY. THEY EXPECT US TO DO IT PROPERLY. I'VE BEEN IN A COUNTRY VERY RECENTLY WHERE THEY'VE GOT A WARNING SYSTEM, AND I WITNESSED PEOPLE WHO WERE TOLD THAT THERE WAS A MAJOR WEATHER EVENT COMING THAT WOULD BE PROBLEMATIC SIMPLY GO ABOUT THEIR DAILY LIVES AS IF NOTHING HAD HAPPENED. SO WE DO HAVE TO HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WE'RE BEING WARNED ABOUT AND KNOW THE TRIGGERS THAT WILL PUT THAT WARNING OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND LET'S HAVE A PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE THAT IF THEY GET THAT WARNING, HERE IS WHAT YOU DO. IT IS NOT A STRAIGHTFORWARD THING. WELL, LET'S LOOK AT WARNING SYSTEMS, THEN, BECAUSE THERE'S ONE, TSUNADO, WHICH IS AN ALERT SYSTEM PLACED IN HOMES. YOU KNOW ABOUT IT. $500,000 WORTH OF TAXPAYER'S MONEY HAS GONE TOWARDS IT, AND IT'S SITTING ON THE SHELF IN CIVIL DEFENCE. TWO YEARS AGO, JOHN HAMILTON, WHO WAS THE DIRECTOR, SAID IT WOULD BE A CRITICAL COMPONENT, SO WHY IS THAT ON THE SHELF? PADDY, PATRICK` YOU'VE GOT A SYSTEM ON THE SHELF. PATRICK, I'M THE ACTING MINISTER. I HAVEN'T BEEN IN THE ROLE VERY LONG. I'M NOT AWARE OF THAT, BUT I WILL LOOK INTO IT. YEAH, BECAUSE WHY IS $500,000 WORTH OF DEVELOPMENT OF A SYSTEM THAT WAS` AND I'VE GOT THE DOCUMENTATION HERE. I'LL GIVE IT TO YOUR OFFICE IF YOU WANT ` THAT JOHN HAMILTON SAID` THAT'LL BE VERY HELPFUL. IT WAS GOING TO BE A CRITICAL COMPONENT OF THIS. NEXT MINUTE IT'S GONE ON THE SHELF, AND YOU'RE TELLING US TODAY 18 MONTHS UNTIL A DECENT SYSTEM COMES IN. NO, NO, NO, NO, HANG ON A MINUTE. YOU'RE DOING WHAT GUYS LIKE YOU ARE VERY GOOD AT. YOU'RE ASKING FOR EVERYTHING TO BE GIVEN TO YOU IN VERY SHORT, SUCCINCT MILLISECOND ANSWERS, TAKING SOME OF THAT AND PUTTING YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION OVER THE TOP OF IT. I'LL FIND OUT. I'LL FIND OUT WHAT THAT'S ALL ABOUT, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT CIVIL DEFENCE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON AN ACCEPTABLE AND WORKABLE WARNING SYSTEM FOR QUITE SOME TIME. IT MAY BE THAT SOME OF THE ANALYSIS ON THAT PARTICULAR SYSTEM DIDN'T QUITE FIT THE BILL. I DON'T KNOW THAT. I'LL FIND OUT. WELL, AFTER THE BREAK, THE AMERICAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, SAMANTHA POWER, ON WHY SHE CALLED RUSSIA'S ACTIONS IN SYRIA BARBARISM. THEN LATER, OUR MT ROSKILL BY-ELECTION DEBATE ` WHAT MICHAEL WOOD AND PARMJEET PARMAR WANT FOR THE ELECTORATE. WELCOME BACK. NOW, 250,000 SYRIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN A CIVIL WAR THAT SHOWS ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS OF SLOWING. BOTH IRAN AND RUSSIA ARE SUPPORTING THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT'S FIGHT AGAINST ISLAMIC STATE AND OTHER GROUPS. THIS WEEK, RUSSIA BEGAN AIR STRIKES. BUT IN SEPTEMBER, THE AMERICAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, SAMANTHA POWER, CRITICISED RUSSIA'S MOTIVES AND CALLED ITS INVOLVEMENT BARBARISM RATHER THAN COUNTER-TERRORISM. I SAT DOWN WITH HER IN NEW YORK LAST WEEK AND ASKED HER IF SHE'S JUST AS CONCERNED NOW. YES, ABSOLUTELY. THE SIEGES OVER SO MANY OF THE POPULATED AREAS IN SYRIA PERSIST, THE AIR STRIKES PERSIST, ALEPPO HAS NOT RECEIVED FOOD SINCE JULY 7, THE STATE OF THE POPULATION IN THERE IS VERY HARD TO GET A GOOD FEEL FOR, BUT AT SOME POINT YOU ARE GOING TO START TO SEE STARVATION AND DISEASE KICK IN. AND WHILE RUSSIA ANNOUNCES THAT IT HAS MADE HUMANITARIAN CORRIDORS AVAILABLE, THESE ARE CORRIDORS LINED WITH HEZBOLLAH SOLDIERS, SYRIAN REGIME SOLDIERS, AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SUBJECTING THE INHABITANTS OF ALEPPO TO SOME OF THE MOST BRUTAL TACTICS OF WAR WE HAVE SEEN IN OUR LIFETIMES. SO ONE NEEDS TO HOLD RUSSIA ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT IT IS DOING AND HOPE THAT THE DEVIANCE FROM INTERNATIONAL PRINCIPLES AND THE PUBLIC PRESSURE AND THE GLOBAL COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION WILL HAVE MORE INFLUENCE ON RUSSIA'S CALCULUS THAN IT HAS UP TO THIS POINT. BECAUSE I SUPPOSE THE THING IS IS THAT RUSSIA WOULD SAY THAT IT'S SUPPORTING A GOVERNMENT THERE AND THAT IT HAS A MANDATE. THEY DID NOT GO IN THERE UNILATERALLY. THEY WOULD SAY THAT. THEY DO SAY THAT, IN FACT, IT TURNS OUT. I THINK THE QUESTION IS GOVERNMENTS THROUGH HISTORY HAVE BEEN OF VARIOUS STRIPES. THIS IS A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS INSTITUTED A POLICY OF SYSTEMATIC TORTURE IN ITS PRISONS. WE HAVE SEEN WITH THE CAESAR PHOTOS JUST WHAT THAT BRUTALITY HAS WROUGHT FOR INNOCENTS OR VULNERABLES. IT HAS USED SARIN GAS, CHLORINE GAS AGAINST ITS OWN PEOPLE. IT DOES NOT THINK TWICE ABOUT STARVING PEOPLE TO DEATH AS A MEANS OF 'TAKING TERRITORY.' SO I THINK THE QUESTION THAT ALL OF US HAVE ASKED OURSELVES SINCE THE FOUNDING OF THE UN IS ` DOES SOVEREIGNTY SHIELD EVERYTHING; CAN YOU DO ANYTHING JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A SOVEREIGN STATE? AND WE ANSWERED IN THE WAKE OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR RESOUNDINGLY NO. IN FACT, THERE ARE RULES; THERE ARE LIMITS. AND THIS REGIME, SURE, CAN INVITE WHOEVER IT WANTS IN. IT'S DONE SO. IT'S INVITED IRAN IN, HEZBOLLAH, RUSSIA. BUT THAT DOES NOT GIVE YOU A FREE PASS TO MURDER PEOPLE. SO IN TERMS OF RUSSIA, THEN, HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITY DOES IT NEED TO TAKE FOR THE DEATHS OF CIVILIANS? IT NEEDS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR BACKING A REGIME THAT SLAUGHTERS CIVILIANS. AND NOW, UNFORTUNATELY IN THE LAST YEAR, IT NEEDS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR KILLING CIVILIANS ITSELF. SO IN SAYING THAT, DO YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT RUSSIA IS DOING THERE AND THE US ROLE IN SUPPORTING AIRSTRIKES IN YEMEN? WE ARE NOT INVOLVED IN CARRYING OUT AIRSTRIKES IN YEMEN. RUSSIA IS SYSTEMATICALLY USING BUNKER BUSTERS TO TARGET PEOPLE WHO ARE IN APARTMENT BUILDINGS. WE ARE HELPING SAUDI ARABIA, WHICH HAS BEEN BOMBED BY HOUTHI REBELS AND IN A MANNER THAT PUTS THOUSANDS, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AT RISK. EVEN NEAR THE TOWN OF MECCA, WHICH YOU CAN IMAGINE IF A MISSILE HIT MECCA WHAT THAT WOULD MEAN. SO WE BELIEVE THAT SAUDI ARABIA HAS AN ENTITLEMENT TO DEFEND ITSELF. WE ALSO BELIEVE THAT THE MILITARY COURSE OF ACTION BEING PURSUED NOW BY BOTH THE HOUTHI ON THE GROUND AND BY THE COALITION IN THE AIR IS ONLY GOING TO PRODUCE HEARTACHE FOR THE PEOPLE OF YEMEN. AND THIS IS WHY SECRETARY KERRY IS THOROUGHLY AROUND-THE-CLOCK INVESTED IN TRYING TO BRING ABOUT A POLITICAL SOLUTION FOR YEMEN. YOU MAY NOT BE DROPPING THE BOMBS YOURSELF, BUT YOU ARE SELLING WEAPONS THAT ARE BEING USED IN THE STRIKES. RUSSIA IS SYSTEMATICALLY TARGETING CIVILIAN-INHABITED NEIGHBOURHOODS. THERE IS NO PARITY AT ALL. AND WE ARE INSTITUTING A REVIEW ALSO OF ALL OF OUR ARRANGEMENTS WITH THOSE COUNTRIES INVOLVED IN THE COALITION, BECAUSE WE OURSELVES HAVE CONDEMNED THOSE STRIKES, FOR INSTANCE, THE RECENT FUNERAL STRIKE. RUSSIA HAS NEVER... IT CANNOT CONDEMN ITSELF, I GUESS, BUT IT HAS NEVER CONDEMNED THE SYRIAN REGIME FOR GASSING PEOPLE, FOR TORTURING PEOPLE, FOR BOMBARDING PEOPLE IN CIVILIAN AREAS. THERE IS NO PARALLEL. BUT THE DEATH OF CIVILIANS IN YEMEN ARE A CONSEQUENCE OF AIR STRIKES USING MILITARY WEAPON AND WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF INTEL THAT IS PROVIDED BY THE UNITED STATES. HOW COMFORTABLE ARE YOU WITH THAT? I AM VERY COMFORTABLE WITH OUR ` THE UNITED STATES' ` OBSERVANCE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, WITH THE CARE WE TAKE, WHEN WE TARGET. WE HAVE LAWYERS AT THE ELBOW OF EVERY MILITARY COMMANDER MAKING A DECISION. WE ARE DISCERNING. WHEN WE MAKE MISTAKES, WHICH WE HAVE, IN WAR ` WE DID IN KUNDUZ IN AFGHANISTAN, AND WE HAVE RECENTLY IN SYRIA, HITTING A SYRIAN ARMY POSITION WHEN WE WERE INTENDING TO HIT ISIL ` WE COME FORWARD, WE PAY COMPENSATION, WE TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WE DO WRONG. THERE IS NO COMPARISON. DO YOU THINK YOU'RE EXPOSED LEGALLY IN YEMEN? YOU SAY YOU HAVE LEGAL PEOPLE AT THE ELBOW WHEN THESE DECISIONS ARE MADE. WE ARE NOT TARGETING IN YEMEN. YOU ARE MIXING TWO FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. WE ARE NOT INVOLVED IN CARRYING OUT AIR STRIKES IN YEMEN. WE ARE NOT PART OF THE COALITION IN YEMEN. WE ARE SUPPORTING SAUDI ARABIA ON ITS BORDER WITH INTELLIGENCE BECAUSE IT IS BEING` $1.3B WORTH OF WEAPONS LAST YEAR TO SAUDI. THE UNITED STATES ACTUALLY DOES PROVIDE WEAPONS TO COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. THAT IS TRUE. IF YOU THINK THAT IS THE SAME AS SLAUGHTERING CIVILIANS WITH YOUR OWN HANDS, THAT IS A VERY STRANGE COMPARISON. SO YOU THINK THESE SITUATIONS ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT? THAT THEY'RE OF NO COMPARISON? WE ARE NOT BOMBING. YOU DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY KIND OF MORAL OBLIGATION TO YOU IN TERMS OF`? YOU CAN ASK THE QUESTION 45,000 DIFFERENT WAYS. WE ARE NOT BOMBING IN YEMEN. WE BELIEVE THAT THE WAR IN YEMEN MUST END. WE ARE MORE INVESTED THAN ANY SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IN ACTUALLY TRYING TO BRING ABOUT A POLITICAL SOLUTION. WE BELIEVE THAT THE SAUDIS, WHO HAVE BOMBED FROM THE AIR, NEED TO TAKE MUCH GREATER PRECAUTIONS. WE BELIEVE THAT THEIR OBSERVANCE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW IS NOT WHAT IT NEEDS TO BE. WE HAVE SENT LAWYERS TO URGE THEM TO TAKE A DIFFERENT APPROACH. BUT, AGAIN, YOUR LINE OF QUESTIONING, WHILE PERSISTENT, DOES NOT BRING US TO A DIFFERENT PLACE. WE ARE NOT BOMBING IN YEMEN IN THE WAY THAT RUSSIA IS BOMBING IN SYRIA. AND WE ARE REVIEWING OUR ASSISTANCE TO SEE ` ARE THERE THINGS THAT WE, IN LIGHT OF WHAT IS HAPPENING, IN LIGHT OF WHAT THE COUNTRIES INVOLVED ARE CONTINUING TO PURSUE A MILITARY SOLUTION, DO WE NEED TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY, DO WE NEED TO ADJUST? WHAT? STOP SELLING WEAPONS OR...? WE ARE DOING A REVIEW, AND WE WILL SEE WHAT THE REVIEW PRODUCES. OK. YOU MENTIONED KUNDUZ, WHICH IS AFGHANISTAN, BUT FOUR HOSPITALS BOMBED IN YEMEN IN THE LAST 17 MONTHS, INCLUDING ONE INCIDENT IN AUGUST WHERE THE MAJORITY OF VICTIMS WERE CHILDREN. DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS HAS RAISED SOME SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT THAT ISSUE. HOW MUCH COLLATERAL DAMAGE IS THE US PREPARED TO TOLERATE? WE ARE NOT PART OF THE COALITION IN YEMEN. WE ARE NOT BOMBING IN YEMEN. I THINK YOU MIGHT BE MISINFORMED. IT COMES BACK TO THE SAME ISSUE, THOUGH, DOESN'T IT, AMBASSADOR? IF WEAPONS THAT ARE SUPPLIED BY THE US ARE USED IN AIR STRIKES AND IF YOU ARE ASSISTING A PARTICULAR GOVERNMENT AND AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT, THERE ARE DEATHS OF CIVILIANS, HOW MUCH...? WE HAVE END-USE REQUIREMENTS, AND WHEN WEAPONS ARE USED INAPPROPRIATELY, WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO LOOK AT WHETHER THOSE SYSTEMS SHOULD BE PROVIDED. WE HAVE ALREADY SUSPENDED THE DELIVERY OF SOME SYSTEMS TO MEMBERS OF THE COALITION, AND WE ARE DOING A REVIEW TO SEE WHAT MORE WE SHOULD DO. OKAY. CAN YOU SAY 100% THAT THERE IS NO CONCERTED CAMPAIGN TO TARGET HOSPITALS OR HEALTH CENTRES BY THE US OR ANY GOVERNMENTS OR GROUPS THAT YOU SUPPORT? THAT THE UNITED STATES` (CHUCKLES) YOU WANT ME TO ANSWER THE QUESTION AS TO WHETHER WE ARE SYSTEMATICALLY BOMBING HOSPITALS AROUND THE WORLD? IS THAT THE QUESTION? I ALSO WANT TO KNOW WHETHER ANY OF THE REGIMES OR GROUPS THAT YOU SUPPORT, WHETHER YOU ARE SURE THAT NONE OF THEM ARE INTENTIONALLY BOMBING CIVILIANS. OH MY GOSH. IF WE HAD INFORMATION THAT SOMEBODY WAS INTENTIONALLY BOMBING A HOSPITAL, WE WOULD NOT SUPPORT THAT ACTOR. DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE DONE ENOUGH TO MAKE SURE THAT REGIMES THAT YOU'RE OFFERING SUPPORT TO OR GROUPS YOU'RE OFFERING SUPPORT TO ARE NOT DOING THAT? BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT YOU'D NEVER KNOWINGLY SUPPORT THAT. YES. HAVE YOU DONE ENOUGH TO BE SURE? I CAN TELL YOU, AS SOMEONE WHO'S PART OF THESE PROCESSES, WE HAVE OUR INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY INVOLVED, WE HAVE OUR MILITARY INVOLVED IN JUDGING AS BEST WE CAN NOT ONLY WHICH TARGETS ARE HIT BUT WHAT IS THE MENS REA, WHAT IS THE MENTAL STATE OF THOSE WHO ARE DOING THE TARGETING. AGAIN, WE WOULD INSIST ON ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE EVENT THAT WE KNEW THAT A COUNTRY WAS KNOWINGLY TARGETING CIVILIANS. SO THE REVIEWS ARE EXTENSIVE. AGAIN, FROM THE STANDPOINT OF NOT BEING PART OF THESE PROCESSES, MAYBE SOME OF THIS IS NOT AS VISIBLE. ALSO THERE IS SOMETIMES A SENSE THAT WE ARE OMNISCIENT AND THAT WE KNOW EVERYTHING THAT IS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE. WE DO HAVE IMPERFECT INFORMATION, SO IT CAN BE SOMETIMES CHALLENGING TO GET ALL THE INFORMATION YOU WANT, BUT WE HOOVER UP AS MUCH AS WE CAN IN ORDER TO MAKE THESE JUDGEMENTS. I MEAN, IT REALLY MATTERS TO PRESIDENT OBAMA. HE HAS DEDICATED HIMSELF TO PLACING THE UNITED STATES BACK WITHIN THE INTERNATIONAL FRAMEWORK, BACK WITHIN INTERNATIONAL LAW, TO RENDER WHAT WE'RE DOING AS TRANSPARENT AS WE CAN, RECOGNISING THAT WE CALL ON OTHER COUNTRIES TO DO THE SAME AND WE SHOULD PRACTICE WHAT WE PREACH. OK. I WANT TO MOVE ON TO THE MAKE-UP OF THE UN. YOU WOULD APPRECIATE THAT NZ OPPOSES THE VETO FOR THE PERMANENT FIVE MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL. CAN YOU SEE HOW SOME COUNTRIES WOULD SEE THAT THAT IS TOO MUCH POWER IN THE HANDS OF FEW? I CAN DEFINITELY SEE. I AM FROM IRELAND ORIGINALLY, AND I ABSOLUTELY CAN SEE THAT THE WAY THE POWER STRUCTURE OF THE UN IS SEEN FROM THE STANDPOINT OF OTHERS, AND I HAVE SEEN ALSO IN MY TIME HERE WITH ALL OF THE RUSSIAN VETOES OF SYRIA RESOLUTIONS HOW PARALYSED THE COUNCIL CAN BECOME BY THE VETO. HOW DO YOU GET AROUND THAT, THEN? WELL, YOU KNOW` WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN? I THINK COUNTRIES WHO HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF HAVING THE VETO ` AND THE UNITED STATES IS ONE, AND IT IS NOT A PRIVILEGE THAT WE ARE GOING TO GIVE UP, EVEN IF WE RECOGNISE AGAIN THE VULNERABILITIES OF THE SYSTEM ` NEED TO RECOGNISE THAT IN ORDER FOR THE SYSTEM TO WORK, ONE HAS TO USE THAT PRIVILEGE RESPONSIBLY. BUT THAT IS THE CONUNDRUM, ISN'T IT? AS YOU SAID, THE US WOULDN'T NOT WANT TO GIVE UP THEIR VETO POWER. PEOPLE WITH POWER DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP THEIR POWER. IT IS A CONUNDRUM. DO YOU THINK THAT THE SECURITY COUNCIL IS AN OUTDATED DINOSAUR, WHETHER THERE NEEDS TO BE GREATER REPRESENTATION, SAY, ON EMERGING ECONOMIES, LIKE INDIA, AFRICA? I THINK THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT A SECURITY COUNCIL THAT HAS AT ITS CORE THE WORLD WAR II VICTORS 71 YEARS LATER NEEDS A REFRESH. THE CHALLENGE IS ` WHAT REFRESH? AND WE HAVE SAID THAT WE WOULD WELCOME A REFORMED SECURITY COUNCIL. WE BELIEVE THE LEGITIMACY OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL REALLY MATTERS AND IT NEEDS TO BE ENHANCED OVER TIME. WE BELIEVE THE COUNTRIES IN THE 21ST CENTURY WHO HAVE ECONOMIC, POLITICAL POWER AND WHO EXERCISE IT RESPONSIBLY IN THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER SHOULD GET MORE REPRESENTATION ON THE COUNCIL. BUT THERE IS NO ISSUE MORE DIVISIVE IN THE UN MEMBERSHIP, ACROSS THE UN MEMBERSHIP THAN THE ISSUE OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL REFORM. AND FOR EVERY COUNTRY THAT WANTS TO BE A MEMBER, THERE IS USUALLY A NEIGHBOUR THAT IS ALSO USUALLY QUITE POWERFUL THAT WANTS TO DO NOTHING OTHER THAN PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING. SO AT A TIME WHEN WE ARE ALSO TRYING TO WALK AND CHEW GUM AT THE SAME TIME, TRYING TO ENSURE THAT OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE REPRESENTATIVE AND EFFECTIVE BUT ALSO DEALING WITH THE PROBLEMS OF TODAY, THE ISSUE OF SECURITY COUNCIL REFORM HAS NEVER... ANY PARTICULAR PACKAGE OF REFORM HAS NEVER CAUGHT THE MOMENTUM THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED, I THINK, FOR REFORM TO HAPPEN. SO INSTEAD WHAT WE HAVE ARE THE ELECTIONS, LIKE THE ONE THAT NZ WAS VICTORIOUS IN AND A COUNTRY LIKE NZ NEW CYCLING ON AND OFF THE COUNCIL. COUNTRIES LIKE INDIA, SOUTH AFRICA, BRAZIL, GERMANY TEND TO CYCLE MORE OFTEN ON AND OFF THE COUNCIL. AND I SUSPECT YOU ARE GOING TO SEE MORE OF THAT OVER TIME ` THAT THOSE COUNTRIES THAT CARRY A LOT OF WEIGHT WILL BE ON THE COUNCIL IN ADVANCE OF ANY MORE PERMANENT SECURITY COUNCIL REFORM SOLUTION. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING, AMBASSADOR. WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. YOU BET. THANK YOU. WELL, THAT WAS A VERY, VERY GOOD INTERVIEW ACTUALLY. NOW, AFTER THE BREAK, MICHAEL WOOD AND PARMJEET PALMAR DEBATE THE POLITICAL ISSUES IN OUR MT ROSKILL BY-ELECTION DEBATE LIVE HERE SOON, BUT FIRST, OLD MATES JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO LOOK AT SOME WIDER CONCERNS. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` IS GERRY BROWNLEE'S $20B ENOUGH TO UPDATE OUR DEFENCE FORCE THROUGH TO 2030? WHAT WE REALLY SHOULD DO IS GET THEM ADOBE DEFENCE FORCE FLASH PLAYER. THEN THEY CAN BE UPGRADING EVERY 20 TO 30 MINUTES. GOOD CALL, PAUL. BIGGEST ISSUE FOR THE NZ NAVY ` WHAT TO REPLACE THE ANZAC FRIGATES WITH? TE MANA AND TE KAHA. WELL, I LIVE IN DEVONPORT, JEREMY, AS YOU KNOW, NEAR THE NAVAL BASE, AND I'D QUITE LIKE TO SEE THEM REPLACED WITH MAYBE A NICE RESTAURANT OR CAFE. GOOD CALL. OTHER BIG NEW THIS WEEK, LABOUR MP TREVOR BOLLARD GOT A MALLARD STUCK UNDER HIS CAR. YEAH, WHEN I FIRST HEARD HE'D RUN OVER SOMETHING ANNOYING, I THOUGHT HE'D TAKEN OUR BRIAN TAMAKI FOR US. OOH, IF ONLY. AND MORE INFO ON HOUSING. TURNS OUT OVERSEAS RESIDENTS ARE ONLY BUYING 3% OF NZ HOUSES. YEAH. 3%. THAT MUST BE JUST THE LETTERBOX OR SOMETHING. WELL, PAUL, THAT'S WHY MOST LETTERBOX BUYERS JUST CAN'T GET ON THE LETTERBOX LADDER. THEY HAVE TO RENT A LETTERBOX. FEELS LIKE YOU MIGHT BE MAKING THAT UP. I AM MAKING IT UP. WE LIVE IN A POST-TRUTH WORLD, PAUL. THAT'S THE OXFORD DICTIONARY'S WORD OF THE YEAR ` POST-TRUTH. IN TERMS OF PUBLIC OPINION, FACTS ` NOT SO IMPORTANT ANY MORE. OH, THAT EXPLAINS WHY AUCKLAND CAN BE THE 'PLACE DESIRED BY MANY.' EXACTLY. HALF A MILL WELL SPENT. WELCOME BACK, AND IT IS OUR FAVOURITE TIME ON THE NATION ` DEBATE TIME. DEMOCRACY TIME HERE IN THE STUDIO. THE MT ROSKILL DEBATE. BECAUSE IN TWO WEEKS' TIME ` YES, TWO WEEKS ` MT ROSKILL WILL DECIDE WHO SHOULD REPLACE PHIL GOFF, WHO HAS, OF COURSE, STEPPED DOWN TO BECOME MAYOR OF AUCKLAND. NOW, ONLY TWO PARTIES IN PARLIAMENT ARE CONTESTING THE BY-ELECTION. THAT'S BECAUSE SOME HAVEN'T BOTHERED AND OTHERS HAVE DONE ELECTORATE DEALS, COLLOQUIALLY KNOWN AS DIRTY DEALS. BUT TWO ARE HERE. THAT IS LABOUR'S MICHAEL WOOD AND NATIONAL PARMJEET PARMAR THEY ARE WITH LISA NOW TO DEBATE. GOOD MORNING TO YOU BOTH. THANKS FOR BEING HERE. NOW, MT ROSKILL IS AN ETHNICALLY DIVERSE ELECTORATE, BUT IT'S ALSO ECONOMICALLY DIVERSE AS WELL. SO, MRS PARMAR, WHAT IS THE MEDIAN WAGE IN MT ROSKILL? WELL, THE MEDIAN WAGE AROUND AUCKLAND IS 58,000. BUT IN THE ELECTORATE THAT YOU'RE STANDING IN? IT IS APPLICABLE IN MT ROSKILL TOO. WELL, ACCORDING TO THE BY-ELECTION INFORMATION SUPPLIED BY GOVERNMENT, IT'S 76,000 IS THE MEDIAN INCOME. SO IT'S HIGHER. THAT'S BETTER, ACTUALLY. THE MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD INCOME. CORRECT. SO, MR WOOD, UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN THAT ELECTORATE ` WHAT IS IT? I BELIEVE IT'S A LITTLE OVER 4%. IT'S ALMOST 5.5%. SO HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. SO, MRS PARMAR, YOU'RE A LIST MP WHO'S LIVING` WHEREABOUTS ARE YOU LIVING AT THE MOMENT? I LIVE IN EASTERN BEACH. RIGHT, SO YOU DON'T LIVE IN THE ELECTORATE. BUT I HAVE MY OFFICE IN THE ELECTORATE. SO WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY IF YOU BECAME THE ELECTORATE MP, RATHER THAN A LIST MP? SO THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIST MP AND THE ELECTORATE MP. I'LL HAVE A CLEAR MANDATE TO GO OUT AND ADVOCATE FOR THE ISSUES OF MT ROSKILL. AND ALSO BEING IN GOVERNMENT, THAT GIVES ME MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO DELIVER RESULTS FOR MT ROSKILL. SO WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU GOING TO DELIVER FOR MT ROSKILL AS AN ELECTORATE MP? WHAT'S THE TOP OF THE LIST? YES, AS YOU SAID, IT'S A VERY, VERY DIVERSE ELECTORATE, SO THE NEEDS FOR THE FAMILIES ARE ALSO DIVERSE. SO THERE ARE ISSUES ABOUT IMPROVING SAFETY IN OUR STREETS AND OUR HOMES, IMPROVING AFFORDABILITY OF HOUSES, SMALL BUSINESSES, I'M REALLY FOCUSED ON THEM. SO THE ISSUES, ACTUALLY, VARY ACCORDING TO THE FAMILIES, AND THESE ARE THE TOP ISSUES THAT I'M LOOKING INTO. WE'RE GOING TO COME TO THOSE SOON. MR WOOD, YOU'RE STANDING IN` ARE YOU STANDING IN THE RIGHT ELECTORATE? BECAUSE YOU'VE HAD A CRACK AT PAKURANGA, AT EPSOM. HOW CAN VOTERS BE SURE THAT YOU'RE COMMITTED TO MT ROSKILL? I'M STANDING IN THE RIGHT ELECTORATE BECAUSE MT ROSKILL IS MY HOME, AND IT HAS BEEN FOR THE PAST 13 YEARS. I'VE SERVED IN THE COMMUNITY, BEEN ON THE LOCAL BOARD FOR THE PAST SIX YEARS. BUT YOU HAD A CRACK AT A FEW OTHERS BEFORE, DIDN'T YOU? YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. I HAVE. SO IT'S JUST KIND OF GET INTO PARLIAMENT BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. SERVED A BIT OF AN APPRENTICESHIP THERE, BUT MY TOTAL COMMITMENT IS TO MT ROSKILL. AND, ACTUALLY, I GIVE AN ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE THAT I'LL ENTER PARLIAMENT AS THE MP FOR MT ROSKILL OR I WON'T ENTER IT AT ALL. MY TOTAL COMMITMENT IS ON GETTING ELECTED TO MT ROSKILL, MY HOME. I KNOW THE LOCAL STREETS, THE LOCAL SHOPS` SO YOU GUARANTEE YOU WON'T STAND FOR ANOTHER ELECTORATE? I WON'T STAND FOR ANOTHER ELECTORATE NEXT YEAR, AND I WON'T SEEK TO ENTER PARLIAMENT THROUGH THE LIST. I WILL ONLY SEEK TO ENTER PARLIAMENT AS THE MP FOR MT ROSKILL. IT'S MY HOME, AND I WANT TO REPRESENT IT. IT'S ALL I'M FOCUSED ON. OKAY. MRS PARMAR, CAN YOU GIVE THE SAME COMMITMENT? WILL YOU STAND IN ANOTHER ELECTORATE, OR ARE YOU GOING TO GIVE AN ASSURANCE THAT MT ROSKILL IS YOUR FOCUS? STANDING IN THIS BY-ELECTION, IT'S ASSURING MY COMMITMENT TO MT ROSKILL. I STOOD IN MT ROSKILL IN 2014 GENERAL ELECTION, AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD IN THE ELECTORATE. BUT CAN YOU RULE OUT STANDING IN ANOTHER ELECTORATE? YOU'RE NOT GOING TO STAND IN PAKURANGA OR ANY OTHER ELECTORATE THE NEXT ELECTION? NO. I AM TOTALLY COMMITTED TO MT ROSKILL. MY HEART IS WITH MT ROSKILL. I HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD. I UNDERSTAND THE COMMUNITY INSIDE OUT. I HAVE BEEN IMMERSED IN THIS ELECTORATE. I HAVE A LONG-STANDING RELATIONSHIP WITH MT ROSKILL. YOU SAID THAT HOUSING AND THE COST OF HOUSING IS ONE OF THE KEY ISSUES FOR YOUR ELECTORATE. HOW MUCH SHOULD AN AFFORDABLE HOUSE BE IN MT ROSKILL? SO, AT THE MOMENT, AS YOU KNOW THAT WITH KIWISAVER HOMESTART PACKAGE, 650,000 IS FOR AUCKLAND, AND THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE HERE IN MT ROSKILL TOO. SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO MAKE THAT SO? SO, YES, THROUGH GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW THAT WE ARE SUPPORTING DEVELOPMENT OF HOUSING, BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADY SPEEDED UP THE CONSENT PROCESS. WE ARE FREEING UP CROWN LAND, SO THAT IS HELPING IN MT ROSKILL AND SURROUNDING SUBURBS. WE HAVE A HUGE DEVELOPMENT AND A SPECIAL HOUSING ACCORD IN THE THREE KINGS FROM ` OK SO, SPECIAL HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS` LISA, I HAVE TO SAY, YOU CANNOT SAY THE GOVERNMENT'S APPROACH IS WORKING. WE NOW HAVE AN AVERAGE HOUSE PRICE OF $1M MT ROSKILL, WHICH HISTORICALLY HAS BEEN THE PLACE ON THE AUCKLAND ISTHMUS WHERE ORDINARY PEOPLE CAN GET A START IN LIFE. THAT IS GONE IN TERMS OF HOUSING AT THE MOMENT. WE ACTUALLY NEED GOVERNMENT TO GET INVOLVED AND BUILD AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR PEOPLE. THE CURRENT APPROACH SIMPLY ISN'T WORKING. THERE'S ABOUT 350 HOUSES IN THE PIPELINE WITH SPECIAL HOUSING AREAS IN MT ROSKILL, ISN'T THERE, MR WOOD? I COULD TAKE YOU TO SPECIAL HOUSING AREAS THAT HAVE BEEN GRANTED SPECIAL HOUSING STATUS, APPROVED BY THE LOCAL BOARD, THAT I'M A PART OF, AND THEN HAVE BEEN FLIPPED FOR A PROFIT. THERE'S A FEW HOUSES COMING THROUGH THAT PIPELINE. THAT'S FINE. BUT IT'S LAUGHABLE TO SAY THAT IT'S ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE CRISIS THAT WE'VE GOT. GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO STEP IN AND DEAL WITH THE SUPPLY SIDE BY BUILDING BUT ALSO DEAL WITH RAMPANT SPECULATION TOO. AND THAT'S WHAT WE'LL DO. SO THE FACT IS THAT UNDER THE PREVIOUS LABOUR GOVERNMENT, PEOPLE WERE LEAVING NZ TO LOOK FOR BETTER OPPORTUNITIES OVERSEAS. SO UNDER THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE PEOPLE COMING TO NZ, AND THERE ARE LESS NUMBER OF PEOPLE LEAVING NZ. SO, YES, SUPPLY IS` AND THAT MAKES HOUSES MORE EXPENSIVE, DOESN'T IT, MRS PARMAR? YES, AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE SPEEDED UP THE CONSENT PROCESS, WE ARE FREEING UP CROWN LAND, AND WE ARE ALSO SPEEDING UP THE SUPPLY ISSUE. SO THE ANSWER FOR THAT IS SUPPLY, SUPPLY AND SUPPLY. HOW MANY SPECIAL HOUSING HOUSES ARE READY TO MOVE INTO IN MT ROSKILL? NEXT YEAR, THREE KINGS DEVELOPMENT IS GOING TO BE READY WITH 40 HOUSES, WHICH WILL COME INTO MARKET. TOTAL NUMBER OF HOUSES THAT ARE BEING BUILT THERE ARE 99, BUT THERE ARE SEVERAL OTHER SPECIAL HOUSING AREAS THAT ARE BEING DEVELOPED. < THE ANSWER IS ZERO AT THE MOMENT. PARMAR: BUT ARTIFICIALLY REGULATED HOUSE PRICE` SO ZERO AT THE MOMENT? IS MR WOOD RIGHT? ZERO HOUSES READY? I HAVE SEEN MYSELF` SORRY, I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR, MRS PARMAR. SO ZERO HOUSES IN SPECIAL HOUSING AREAS AT THIS POINT HAVE BEEN COMPLETED? THROUGH HOUSING NZ, I HAVE GONE AND SEEN THE DEVELOPMENT. THERE ARE TWO HOUSES CONVERTED TO EIGHT HOUSES. THERE ARE THREE HOUSES CONVERTED TO NINE HOUSES. READY TO MOVE INTO NOW? ALL READY THEY HAVE BEEN. YEP, AND THEY LOOK REALLY COMFORTABLE, REALLY APPEALING. LISA, THE SPECIAL HOUSING AREAS AREN'T A BAD IDEA, BUT IT'S RATS AND MICE STUFF ` THREE HOUSES THERE, SIX THERE. A LOT OF THE BIG DEVELOPMENTS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, LIKE THREE KINGS, THERE'S NO COMMITMENT TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING BEYOND A VERY SMALL NUMBER ANYWAYS. WE NEED TO GET WITH SCALE HERE AND BUILD SCALE AFFORDABLE HOUSES FOR PEOPLE. YOU DON'T TACKLE A CRISIS BY BUILDING THREE HOUSES HERE, SIX THERE AND 40 THERE. SPECIAL HOUSING AREAS HAVE AFFORDABILITY COMPONENT, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT REGULATING PRICES ARTIFICIALLY WORK. SO THE ANSWER IS SUPPLY, AND THAT'S WHAT WE ARE WORKING ON. AND UNDER THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT IN THEIR LAST MONTH, THERE WERE JUST 10 HOUSES BEING BUILT ON ONE WORKING DAY. UNDER US, IT'S 50. SO WE HAVE ALREADY SHOWN THE RESULTS. LET'S MOVE ON TO SOME OTHER BIG PROJECTS. LIGHT RAIL IS ONE THING THAT YOU'RE FLOATING, MR WOOD. IT'S NOT GOT A LIGHT PRICE TAG, THOUGH, HAS IT? IT'S $1.2 BILLION. AND PHIL GOFF, WHO'S CAMPAIGNING FOR YOU, HE SAYS HE DOESN'T HAVE THE COIN AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY, SO WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET THE DOUGH FROM? LOOK, THE REASON THAT WE HAVE A TRANSPORT CRISIS IN AUCKLAND AND TOTALLY CONGESTED ROADS IS BECAUSE WE'VE PUT OFF INVESTMENT DECISIONS. WHERE'S THE MONEY COMING FROM? VERY SIMPLY, THE GOVERNMENT OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS HAS $10 BILLION FOR LAND TRANSPORT CAPITAL PROJECTS. THIS PROJECT WOULD TAKE ABOUT $700 MILLION OF THAT. YOU'RE WANTING THE COUNCIL TO PAY HALF. ABSOLUTELY. AND SO WHAT LABOUR SAYS IS WE WOULD WORK WITH AUCKLAND COUNCIL, AND UNLIKE THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, WE WOULD BE A BIT CREATIVE AND OPEN TO LOOKING AT ALTERNATIVE REVENUE STREAMS. SO IT'S NOT A PROMISE TO DELIVER THIS, THEN, IS IT, MR WOOD? IT'S A HOPE. IT'S A HOPE. IT COULD BE A VAIN HOPE. IT'S LABOUR MAKING A MAJOR COMMITMENT TO ACTUALLY RESOLVING TRAFFIC CONGESTION IN AUCKLAND, WHICH IS MORE THAN ANY OTHER PARTY IS PREPARED TO DO. IF YOU'RE ELECTED THE MP FOR THIS ELECTORATE, YOU CAN'T PROMISE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET LIGHT RAIL, SO IT'S JUST A HOPE. IT'S LABOUR MAKING A MAJOR COMMITMENT, AND I AM ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENT THAT WORKING WITH COUNCIL, WHICH IN ITS PLANS HAS ALREADY IDENTIFIED THAT LIGHT RAIL NEEDS TO HAPPEN, WE WILL GET THERE. OK, SO NO GUARANTEES THERE. ALL RIGHT. MRS PARMAR, YOU HAVE SUPPORTED, SAID PUBLICLY, THAT YOU SUPPORT CHANGES TO CHILD, YOUTH AND FAMILY AS A MEASURE TO REDUCE CRIME. PART OF THAT PROPOSAL IS TO RAISE THE YOUTH COURT AGE. DO YOU SUPPORT THAT TOO? BECAUSE A LOT OF LOCAL BUSINESSES IN YOUR AREA ARE SICK OF BEING KNOCKED OVER BY TEENAGERS. WHEN I TALK TO SMALL BUSINESSES, IT'S NORMALLY YOUNG PEOPLE, THOSE WHO COMMIT OFFENCES IN THESE SMALL BUSINESSES, SO, YES, I AM LOOKING INTO IT, I HAVE SPOKEN TO SEVERAL SMALL BUSINESSES` SO DO YOU SUPPORT IT? YOUR ELECTORATE WILL WANT TO KNOW. SO I WANT TO SEE IS, ACTUALLY, THE FULL PROPOSAL. SO AT THIS STAGE, I'M NOT SATISFIED, BECAUSE WHAT I'M SEEING AND HEARING FROM SMALL BUSINESSES IS THAT WHEN GROUPS OF PEOPLE COMMIT CRIME AGAINST DAIRY AND ROBBERIES, IT'S YOUNG PEOPLE` I NEED TO BE CLEAR ON THIS. DO YOU SUPPORT IT OR NOT, MRS PARMAR ` RAISING THE AGE? IT'S YOUNG PEOPLE, THOSE WHO ARE ENGAGED AND ARE CAUSING THE MOST SERIOUS DAMAGE, AND THEY BELIEVE THAT AS YOUTH, HE OR SHE CAN EASILY GET AWAY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THIS. SMALL BUSINESSES, YOU SAY, ARE AN AREA YOU'RE CONCENTRATING ON. THEY'LL WANT TO KNOW. AT THIS STAGE, I HAVEN'T SEEN THE FULL PROPOSAL. IT'S GOING THROUGH THE CABINET PROCESS, BUT I REALLY WANT TO SEE THAT. YOU DON'T SOUND LIKE YOU DO SUPPORT IT. I REALLY WANT TO SEE WHAT IS IN IT. OK. SO YOU'RE SITTING ON THE FENCE ON THAT ONE? ALL RIGHT. I'M REALLY WANTING TO SEE WHAT'S IN IT. LABOUR IS PLEDGING 1000 MORE FRONT-LINE POLICE OFFICERS, MR WOOD, SO HOW MANY OF THOSE WILL BE IN MT ROSKILL? HOW MANY OF THOSE OFFICERS CAN YOU GUARANTEE WILL BE ON THE BEAT IN MT ROSKILL? IT WOULD BE INAPPROPRIATE OF ANY POLITICIAN TO START ALLOCATING POLICE TO PARTICULAR AREAS. WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS WE NEED 1000 NEW FRONT LINE POLICE BECAUSE INVESTMENT IN POLICE HASN'T KEPT UP WITH POPULATION GROWTH IN AUCKLAND. SO WE'D PUT THOSE FRONT-LINE POLICE THERE AND LET POLICE MAKE THE DECISIONS ABOUT HOW YOU DEPLOY THEM. SO NO GUARANTEES? BUT WHAT IT'S ABOUT IS GETTING COPS ON THE FRONT LINE, ON THE STREETS, AT THE SHOPS, KEEPING AN EYE ON THINGS. WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME. I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH A QUICK QUESTION. SO 39% OF MT ROSKILL RESIDENTS ARE ASIAN, MR WOOD. HOW DO YOU THINK THEY FELT ABOUT LABOUR SINGLING OUT PEOPLE WITH ASIAN-SOUNDING NAMES WHO ARE BUYING HOUSES? PEOPLE LIVING IN MT ROSKILL, WHETHER THEY'RE PAKEHA, MAORI, INDIAN OR CHINESE, ARE ALL LOCKED OUT OF THE PROPERTY MARKET, AND THEY ALL WANT US TO FOCUS ON SOLUTIONS, AND STOPPING OFF-SHORE SPECULATION IN OUR PROPERTY MARKET IS A PART OF THAT. THAT WILL BENEFIT EVERYONE IN MT ROSKILL. OK ALL RIGHT, MRS PARMAR, JUST BEFORE WE GO, MT ROSKILL IS KNOWN AS THE BIBLE BELT, SO HOW WOULD YOU VOTE ON RIGHT-TO-DIE LEGISLATION? I AM PRO-LIFE. I WOULD VOTE AGAINST IT. SO YOU'D VOTE AGAINST EUTHANASIA? YES. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. PLEASURE. THANKS, LISA. THANK YOU. WELL, THAT WAS A GOOD DEBATE. NOW, TURNING ON TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. NEXT FEW YEARS, NZ WILL INCREASE ITS INTAKE OF REFUGEES FROM 750 A YEAR TO 1000. THEY WILL SPEND SIX WEEKS AT THE MANGERE RESETTLEMENT CENTRE THEN GET ONGOING SUPPORT FROM COMMUNITY PROVIDERS LIKE THE RED CROSS. BUT THE QUESTION IS THIS ` IS THAT SUPPORT STRUCTURE ENOUGH FOR THESE PEOPLE? JACOB BROWN WITH THIS REPORT. IT'S THE LITTLE THINGS IN LIFE THAT MAKE MOHAMMED BERENJIKAR AND HIS WIFE, LAYLA, HAPPY TO BE NEW NZERS. IT WASN'T LONG AGO THAT MOHAMMED COULD ONLY DREAM OF DAYS LIKE THESE. IN HIS NATIVE IRAN, HE WAS A PRISONER. THE CRIME ` WANTING TO MAKE A SHORT FILM ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF YOUNG CHILDREN BEING FORCED TO WORK TO SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES. THEY SEND ME TO THE PRISON. THE FIRST THREE YEARS, AND AFTER THAT, TWO MORE YEARS THEY KEPT ME IN JAIL. IRAN VIEWED MOHAMMED'S PROJECT AS A CRIME AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT, FEARFUL IT WOULD SHOW THE COUNTRY IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT. AFTER FIVE YEARS, MOHAMMED WAS GRANTED 15 DAYS LEAVE FROM THE PRISON FOR A HEALTH PROBLEM. AND THAT'S WHEN HE DECIDED TO ACT. WHEN I CAME OUT, MY FATHER SAID, 'SON, JUST GO. WHEREVER YOU WANT TO GO, JUST GO. 'DON'T STAY IN THIS COUNTRY TODAY. IT WILL KILL YOU. NOT PHYSICALLY, BUT IT WILL KILL YOU.' ON HIS FATHER'S ADVICE MOHAMMED AND LAYLA MANAGED TO FLEE IRAN AND SPENT THE NEXT THREE AND A HALF YEARS IN MALAYSIA. THERE, THEY SAT ON THE UNITED NATIONS' REFUGEE AGENCY WAITING LIST WHEN, EVENTUALLY, NZ CAME KNOCKING. MOHAMMED HAD NEVER HEARD OF NZ BEFORE, BUT HIS INITIAL FEARS WERE PUT TO REST AS SOON AS HE ARRIVED AT AUCKLAND AIRPORT. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR A REFUGEE WHEN YOU GET TO ANOTHER COUNTRY ` SO EVERYBODY IS SCARED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE REACTION OF WHEN YOU SAY YOU ARE A REFUGEE. BUT IT REALLY WAS AMAZING. IT WAS JUST GOOD BEHAVIOUR. THEY` THEY ARE WELCOMING, AND THEY SAY WELCOME TO OUR COUNTRY, AND THEY HELP US TO, YOU KNOW, CARRY OUT LUGGAGE. IT WAS... SIX WEEKS AT THE MANGERE RESETTLEMENT CENTRE HELPED PREPARE THE COUPLE FOR THEIR NEW LIFE. SIX MONTHS ON, THEY'RE PROUD TO CALL WELLINGTON THEIR NEW HOME. BUT FOR MANY OTHER REFUGEES, BECOMING A PART OF NZ SOCIETY IS NOT AS STRAIGHTFORWARD. IT'S ALMOST LIKE THEY'RE FORCING THEMSELVES TO LIVE. THEY'VE TAKEN THIS CHANCE AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO EVOLVE AND LEARN MORE AND BE SOMEONE ELSE OUTSIDE THEIR BORDERS. (ALL SING IN ARABIC) FAIROUZ KANNO IS FROM SYRIA AND IMMIGRATED HERE WITH HER FAMILY NEARLY 20 YEARS AGO. EVERY FEW WEEKS, SHE JOINS OTHER MEMBERS OF THE REFUGEE COMMUNITY HERE AT THIS ASSYRIAN CHURCH IN SOUTH AUCKLAND. SHE'S BEEN HERE LONG ENOUGH TO SEE MANY INTEGRATE WELL, BUT FOR OTHERS, ESPECIALLY OLDER PEOPLE, IT'S NOT AS EASY. ALL THEY THEY THINK OF IS HOW MUCH THEY LOST, AND I DON'T THINK THERE IS THE COURAGE TO CONTINUE SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW. AND THE ONLY COURAGE THEY HAVE IS ACTUALLY THROUGH THEIR KIDS. FAIROUZ THINKS ONE OF THE ANSWERS IS FORCING LONELY REFUGEES TO INTERACT THROUGH PICNICS, GET-TOGETHERS AND COMMUNITY EVENTS THAT ARE COMPULSORY. THE ONE THING THAT MADE ME REALLY REALLY FEEL AS A KIWI WAS ACTUALLY WATCHING ALL BLACK. I ACTUALLY ENJOYED IT SO MUCH, AND I JUST LOVED IT SO MUCH, AND WHEN THE ANTHEM SONG GET PLAYED, I GET SHIVER. I GET, UM, CHILLS, AND THAT WAS JUST A SENSE OF BELONGING, YOU KNOW? SHE ALSO BELIEVES A GOVERNMENT-ORGANISED REFUGEE SPONSORSHIP PROGRAMME SIMILAR TO THE ONE IN CANADA COULD HELP EASE THE BURDEN FOR ALL. THAT ARRANGEMENT ALLOWS GROUPS OF CANADIAN CITIZENS TO SPONSOR A REFUGEE, OFFERING THEM FINANCIAL AND EMOTIONAL SUPPORT FOR A YEAR. OUR GOVERNMENT SAYS IT'S ALSO WORKING ON A COMMUNITY SPONSORSHIP PROGRAMME FOR REFUGEES WITH A PILOT DUE TO GET UNDERWAY IN LATE 2017 OR EARLY 2018. NOT MUCH IS KNOWN ABOUT THE SCHEME YET, BUT MORE DETAILS ARE EXPECTED TO BE REVEALED IN THE NEW YEAR. FAIROUZ HOPES THAT BY GETTING REFUGEES MORE INVOLVED IN KIWI CULTURE IT WON'T ONLY ENRICH THEIR LIVES BUT BENEFIT NZ. THERE IS A SIDE THAT MIGHT THINK, WELL, WE BROUGHT THEM TO OUR COUNTRY AND THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT, THE, YES, THAT'S THE FACT, BUT IT DOES NEED SOME COURAGE, AND FOR SOMEONE WHO LEFT EVERYTHING BEHIND, IT'S REALLY HARD. WELL, STICK AROUND. AFTER THE BREAK, OUR PANEL ` SIMON WILSON AND TRACY WATKINS AND OUR VERY OWN POLITICAL EDITOR, PATRICK GOWER. WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` JOURNALIST SIMON WILSON AND FAIRFAX POLITICAL EDITOR TRACY WATKINS AND, OF COURSE, PADDY. THANKS ALL FOR JOINING US. TRACY, ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT WE'VE GOT IT TOGETHER IN TERMS OF CIVIL DEFENCE, HAVING HEARD THE MINISTER THERE, AFTER A MAJOR QUAKE HAPPENED? IT WAS A MAJOR QUAKE. I THINK ONE OF THE BIG THINGS, AND THERE ARE TWO AREAS FOR ME. ONE IS THAT BECAUSE OF WHERE IT HAPPENED, I THINK IT TOOK A LONG TIME FOR EVERYONE TO REALISE THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS QUAKE AND HOW MUCH DAMAGE HAD BEEN DONE, BECAUSE IT'S SORT OF IN AN AREA WHERE IT'S LESS POPULATED. THE SECOND IS JUST PURELY PERSONAL. I LIVE 50M FROM THE BEACH IN PETONE. THE QUAKE HAPPENED, THE HOUSE SHOOK, AND WE SPENT THE NEXT HOUR DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT TO GO TO HIGH GROUND. AND EVENTUALLY WE DID BECAUSE I'M A SCAREDY CAT, AND THEN THE TSUNAMI WARNING SOUNDED, YOU KNOW, AFTER THAT, AND THEN THERE WAS A SUDDEN STREAM OF TRAFFIC. BUT NOBODY WAS CLEAR WHAT WAS HAPPENING WITH THE TSUNAMI WARNING. SIMON, THE MINISTER SAID THERE, NOT HAVING 24/7 COVERAGE IN TERMS OF THIS DIDN'T STOP PEOPLE KNOWING THERE WAS A MAJOR EARTHQUAKE. YOU FELT IT. YOU KNEW. WHAT THE MINISTER DID THERE WAS KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON, WHICH IS WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT ANY GOVERNMENT MINISTER TO DO IN A CRITICAL SITUATION. IT'S A MESSAGE THEY HAVE TO GIVE, WHICH IS TO REASSURE PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE IN CHARGE, THAT THINGS AREN'T AS BAD AS THEY MIGHT FEAR, AND ALSO HE'S ALSO DEFENDING THE OFFICIALS, REMEMBER, AND IT'S QUITE NICE TO SEE A MINISTER, I THINK, NOT DUMPING ON THE OFFICIALS. HOWEVER, HAVING SAID THAT, HE'S CLEARLY WRONG. THERE IS CLEARLY A PROBLEM. AND THE PROBLEM ISN'T JUST WITH THE OFFICIALS. THE PROBLEM GOES RIGHT THROUGH THE COUNTRY. PEOPLE LIVING IN LOW-LYING AREAS WHO FELT AN EARTHQUAKE GOING ON FOR 90 SECONDS, AND IT WAS SO SEVERE, THEY COULDN'T STAND UP, DID NOT HEAD FOR THE HILLS. NO. YEAH. TOBY MANHIRE'S MADE THIS POINT, HASN'T HE? SIMPLE ` GET GEONET STAFFED 24 HOURS A DAY NOW. ALSO, WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE ALERT SYSTEM ON THE SHELF AND ANOTHER ONE GOING TO TAKE 18 MONTHS? EITHER GET THE ONE OFF THE SHELF OR GET THE ONE 18 MONTHS` COS YOU'VE GOT TO REMEMBER THE INITIAL ADVICE WAS, 'THERE IS NO TSUNAMI RISK.' YOU KNOW? AND SO THAT WAS WHEN WE WENT, 'OK, WELL, MAYBE WE DON'T.' BECAUSE WE WERE LISTENING TO THE RADIO AND GOING... SO IT'S STILL A JUMBLE. WE STILL HAVEN'T` THERE IS A CRISIS TO BE FIXED, THERE IS A LONG-TERM SYSTEM THING TO CORRECT, AND THERE IS ALSO A POPULATION THING TO CORRECT THAT IN SPITE OF CHRISTCHURCH, WE AS NZERS DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS WHEN A MAJOR EARTHQUAKE HITS. AND THE MINISTER SAID HE'S GOING TO DEAL WITH THOSE THINGS BUT THE IMMEDIATE CONCERN IS, LIKE, THE REBUILDING AND GETTING THINGS UP AND RUNNING. MONEY-WISE, THOUGH, TRACY, WHAT IS THIS GOING TO MEAN FOR THE GOVERNMENT BOOKS? COS THIS AIN'T A CHEAP THING, IS IT? WELL, NO, IT'S NOT. THEY'RE TALKING BILLIONS. BUT IT'S GOING TO HAVE` IT'S A BIT LIKE CHRISTCHURCH. THERE'S SORT OF LIKE AN UPSIDE AND A DOWNSIDE. YOU KNOW, CHRISTCHURCH HAS CONTRIBUTED TO GROWTH. IT HAS HELPED THE ECONOMY IN MANY WAYS IN TERMS OF NOT JUST THE CAPITAL SPEND BUT ALSO WAGES. BUT BILL ENGLISH IS ALREADY MANAGING EXPECTATIONS, ISN'T HE, ABOUT WHERE MONEY'S GOING TO GO AND WHAT THAT MEANS. YEAH. BUT I THINK ALSO, LOOKING AT WELLINGTON, THAT'S JUST AN UNFOLDING STORY, AND A LOT OF THESE BUILDINGS ARE GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS. NOW, THAT COMES DOWN TO LIABILITY AND INSURANCE. I MEAN, THEY'RE LEASING THE GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS. SO THERE'S HUGE COSTS UNFOLDING EVERY DAY. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF WELLINGTON AND THE WAY THAT WAS HANDLED? BECAUSE PEOPLE CAME BACK IN AFTER 36 HOURS. WELL, I THINK THAT WAS PART OF THE GENERAL IMPRESSION THAT BECAUSE NOTHING FELL DOWN AND ONLY TWO PEOPLE DIED AND NONE OF THEM WERE IN WELLINGTON, BUT THE GENERAL IMPRESSION THAT IT WASN'T SUCH A BAD EARTHQUAKE, AND IT TOOK OFFICIALS, AS IT TOOK THE POPULATION, SOME TIME TO REALISE IT WAS MORE SERIOUS. NOW, THEY'RE RIGHT THAT THEY CAN'T JUST GO IN AND RED-STICKER EVERYTHING AND KNOW IMMEDIATELY WHERE THE BIG PROBLEMS ARE. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE CLEARLY ISN'T A SYSTEM IN PLACE WHICH ALLOWS THAT QUESTION ` WHAT'S SERIOUS? WHAT IS A PROBLEM? WHICH BUILDINGS DO NEED TO BE CLOSED? THERE'S NOT A SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT ALLOWS THAT TO BE TACKLED DIRECTLY AND QUICKLY. WELL, I MEAN, WELLINGTON COUNCIL THERE, THERE'S, WHAT, 500 OR 600 BUILDINGS THAT ARE QUAKE PRONE. PADDY, SOME OF THEM DON'T HAVE TO BE FIXED FOR 15 YEARS. YEAH, AND THAT'S A PROBLEM, AND I'LL PICK UP ON WHAT TRACY SAID. THERE COULD BE A BIG COST HERE FOR THE GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF PROTECTING THOSE BUILDINGS AND THE PEOPLE IN THEM. SO IT MIGHT NOT JUST BE WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH THE SLIPS AND EVERYTHING. THEY MAY HAVE A HUGE BILL PROTECTING THE PUBLIC SERVICE. THAT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE UNTOLD STORIES SO FAR. AND THAT'S GONNA KEEP UNFOLDING, AND WE'RE ALREADY SEEING IT. YOU'VE GOT STATS, DEFENCE HOUSE ` THAT WAS ONLY BUILT A FEW YEARS AGO. AND SOME OF THE OTHERS THAT ARE SUDDENLY LOOKING VULNERABLE. BUT FOR WELLINGTON PEOPLE ALSO, YOU'RE VERY RELIANT ON THE LANDLORD OF THE BUILDING CHECKING IT. MY GYM ` YOU KNOW, IS THAT SAFE? I DON'T KNOW. THEY SAY IT IS. BUT, YEAH, THERE'S ALL THESE QUESTIONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE. AND THE GOVERNMENT SUDDENLY FINDS ITSELF IN THE SAME PLACE AS TRACY, WONDERING ABOUT THE GYM OR ANYONE WONDERING ABOUT THEIR WORKPLACE, THE GOVERNMENT IS THE TENANT AND IS ALL OF A SUDDEN HAVING TO GO OUT TO 500 OR 600 DIFFERENT BUILDINGS AND HOWEVER HUNDRED DIFFERENT LANDLORDS ARE INVOLVED AND SAY, 'HEY, ARE PEOPLE SAFE IN HERE?' ANOTHER EARTHQUAKE-RELATED STORY THAT CAME UP THIS WEEK WAS BRIAN TAMAKI SELF-CALLED 'BISHOP' WHO WAS IMPLYING THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS WHAT CAUSED THE CHRISTCHURCH EARTHQUAKE AND REFUSING TO BACK DOWN AND APOLOGISE AND COMPLAINED THAT THE MEDIA HAD MISINTERPRETED HIS COMMENTS. WELL, WHEN HE WAS ASKED TO EXPLAIN THAT, IT WAS CLEAR THAT THE MEDIA HADN'T MISINTERPRETED HIS COMMENTS. HE WAS VERY BLUNT AND VERY CLEAR. HIS MESSAGES ARE APPALLING, AREN'T THEY? SHOULD HE BE GIVEN OXYGEN, OR SHOULD WE JUST IGNORE HIM? WELL, I THINK JUST IGNORE HIM. AND I'M IN TWO MINDS ABOUT THIS MOVE TO TAKE AWAY HIS TAX STATUS AS A CHARITY. I MEAN, CERTAINLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE STORIES ABOUT DESTINY CHURCH, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO FIT THE DEFINITION. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU CAN'T JUST DO IT ON THE BASIS OF SOMEONE SAYING THINGS YOU DON'T... YEAH, BUT IF YOU TAKE AWAY ALL THIS STUPID, IDIOTIC, PATHETIC STUFF HE SAYS, THE FACT IS THEY LOOK LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN MAKING MONEY FOR YEARS. PAY SOME TAX, BISHOP TAMAKI. IT'S THE DONALD TRUMP SITUATION, ISN'T IT? THE ONLY CHURCH THAT MAKES MONEY. THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY CHURCH. I WOULD SAY PAY SOME TAX. A LOT OF THOSE CHURCHES THAT ARE CLEARLY USING MERCHANDISE, MAKING MONEY, A LOT OF THE NEW-AGE CHURCHES IN PARTICULAR AND PERHAPS THINGS LIKE THE EXCLUSIVE BRETHREN AS WELL, GET IN AND PAY SOME DAMN TAX. AND THEY'RE TITHING THEIR PEOPLE AS WELL. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE, GUYS. WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT IN THE BREAK. DO STAY WITH US. WE'LL BE BACK AFTER THAT BREAK WITH WHAT WILL BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH THE NATION AND OUR PANEL. LET'S TALK ABOUT MT ROSKILL AND THE CANDIDATES STANDING THERE. WAS ANYONE PROMISING ANYTHING THEY CAN ACTUALLY, DELIVER, SIMON, OR ARE THEY JUST GIVING US THE PARTY LINE? WELL, IT WAS INTERESTING THAT PARM` PARM` PARMAR? PARMJEET PARMAR, YEAH, COULDN'T SAY VERY MUCH, BECAUSE THE THINGS YOU ASKED HER SPECIFICALLY, THERE ISN'T YET A CABINET LIEN, SO SHE WASN'T GOING TO STEP OUT ON HER OWN. SO THAT WAS` WAS UNFORTUNATE. (LAUGHS) NOW, IN THE CASE OF MICHAEL WOOD, IF HE WINS, HE'S GOING INTO THE OPPOSITION, SO HE CAN'T ACTUALLY PERSONALLY DELIVER UNLESS` UNTIL LABOUR BECOMES PART OF A GOVERNMENT. BUT THE POLICY THAT THE` THE KEYNOTE POLICY THEY HAVE THE LIGHT RAIL POLICY, WHICH IS ATTACHED TO THE IDEA THAT AUCKLAND WILL HAVE AVAILABLE TO IT BROADER FUNDING OPTIONS, IS ACTUALLY A REAL STAKE IN THE GROUND FOR LABOUR, AND I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY DESERVE CRITICISM FOR IT. THEY ARE SAYING, 'WE WILL CHANGE THE WAY FUNDING APPLIES IN AUCKLAND. WE WILL CHANGE THE TRANSPORT SYSTEM.' AND THOSE ARE BOTH THINGS THAT DO NEED TO HAPPEN. SO, YOU KNOW, I WOULDN'T CRITICISE HIM FOR BEING A PART OF THAT. I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT HE WAS SAYING THERE THAT HE WON'T STAND IN ANY OTHER ELECTORATE, AND HE'S NOT GONNA BE ON THE LIST. YEAH, WHICH IS QUITE A BIG CALL, COS IF YOU LOOK AT HIS BACKGROUND, HE'S VERY HELL-BENT ON A CAREER IN NATIONAL POLITICS. HE'S STOOD IN A FEW SEATS NOW. YEP, PAKURANGA AND EPSOM. HAD A FEW CRACKS AT IT. SO` AND HE ALSO` THIS IS A SEAT WHERE NATIONAL WON THE PARTY VOTE. PHIL GOFF CERTAINLY WON IT WITH A BIG MAJORITY, BUT WE JUST DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF THAT IS PERSONAL VOTES. IF HE DOESN'T MANAGE TO CONVINCE 2000 NATIONAL VOTERS TO VOTE FOR HIM` I HAVE A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW. I THINK HE'S A MACHINE POLITICIAN,... YES. ...WHO HAS SAT THERE ` THE SEATS HE'S GONE INTO HE'D NEVER WIN. IT'S PART OF AN APPRENTICESHIP. HE'S BEEN WAITING FOR PHIL GOFF TO GET OUT OF THE WAY. HE'S PHIL GOFF II. HE IS A MACHINE POLITICIAN, AND A LABOUR PARTY MACHINE-MAN. IN FACT` THIS IS NOT THAT UNCOMMON TO SAY YOU'RE NOT GONNA STAND ON THE LIST. HE'S BE WAY DOWN THE LIST. THEY'VE GOTTA GET ETHNIC PEOPLE UP AHEAD OF HIM. IT WON'T LOOK GOOD. PEOPLE DO THIS ALL THE TIME. DAMIEN O'CONNOR DOES IT AS WELL. LAST THING ` PARTY VOTE THEY GOT AHEAD OF IT. TAKE OUT NZ FIRST AND THE GREENS, WHICH THEY'RE OUT OF IT, AND ACTUALLY, YOU'RE LOOKING AT THEM WAY AHEAD. HE'S GONNA WALK IN THERE. PARMJEET PARMAR'S NO GOOD. THEY'RE BOTH ACTUALLY QUITE BORING. (CHUCKLES) LET'S GET THIS THING OVER AND DONE WITH NOW. I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. HE'S GONNA WALK IN. IT DOESN'T EVEN SEEM SHE'S TRYING PARTICULARLY HARD. I THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THAT. SHE'S THERE FOR THE LIST VOTE, TO MAKE NATIONAL LOOK GOOD AND KEEP TESTING WELL. NATIONAL CAN'T HAVE NO FAITH IN HER. THEY'VE GOT TO SUPPORT HER. SHE IS THERE AS A LIST MP ALREADY. MICHAEL WOOD HAS DONE HIS TIME. YOU'RE CRITICISING HIM FOR THE STANDING IN EPSOM ` WELL, THAT'S WHAT YOU DO IN POLITICS. YOU WORK YOUR WAY UP. AND YOU'RE RIGHT ` HE HAS BEEN CLOSELY ATTACHED TO PHIL GOFF FOR YEARS. THEY ARE CLOSE FAMILY FRIENDS. YES, ALMOST HOLDING HANDS, THESE GUYS. HE'S NOT PHIL GOFF II. PHIL GOFF IS MUCH MORE TO THE RIGHT OF THE LABOUR PARTY THAN MICHAEL WOOD. MICHAEL WOOD'S ACTUALLY ON THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT SIDE OF THE LABOUR PARTY, SO HE WILL BE DIFFERENT. TRACY, DO YOU THINK THIS BY-ELECTION IS A REFERENDUM ON ANDREW LITTLE AS LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY? I WOULD IF, UM, ANYONE HAD BEEN PAYING ATTENTION. (ALL CHUCKLE) BUT TO BE HONEST, IT'S JUST, LIKE` THERE'S JUST BEEN TOO MANY OTHER THINGS HAPPENING. NOBODY'S EVEN HALF AWARE THAT IT'S HAPPENING. HE'S KIND OF LUCKY IN SOME WAYS. IT WON'T TURN INTO THAT, ALTHOUGH I THINK HE COULD HAVE DONE WITH THE EXPOSURE OF IT BEING A REFERENDUM ON HIS LEADERSHIP, AND LABOUR COULD HAVE DONE WITH IT BEING A REFERENDUM ON NATIONAL IN AUCKLAND. IT HASN'T BECOME ANYTHING. ACTUALLY, THE TRUTH IS, IT'S A BIT OF A FIZZER. WELL, LET'S MOVE ON TO A BIG OVERSEAS POLITICAL STORY THAT WE CAN'T SHAKE OFF ` TRUMP. SO, THIS WEEK, HE DITCHED THE PRESS CORPS AND WENT OUT FOR STEAK ON HIS OWN, AND THAT CAUSED A HUGE STINK. IS HE` HE'S HAD A BAD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRESS, HASN'T HE, TRACY? CAN HE KEEP DOING THAT? BECAUSE HE'S PRESIDENT NOW, AND THERE'S OBLIGATIONS, AREN'T THERE? WELL, YEAH, YOU'D ASSUME SO, BUT HE'S PAID COMPLETE LIP-SERVICE TO ALL OF IT SO FAR, SO I DON'T KNOW WHY HE'D CHANGE TACK NOW. THAT'S NOT GONNA BE A SITUATION NORMAL PRESIDENCY, SO I GUESS HE'S STARTING AS HE MEANS TO GO ON. AND IN TERMS OF` IF YOU LOOK AT HOW CLEVERLEY HE USED OTHER MEDIA, AS IN SOCIAL MEDIA AND FACEBOOK AND ALL THOSE THINGS,... LOVES HIS TWITTER. ...PROBABLY THINKS HE DOESN'T EVEN NEED THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA. THE OTHER THING REALLY NOTICEABLE ABOUT TRUMP IS THAT AT EACH STAGE OF HIS RISE, PEOPLE SAID, 'WELL, AT THIS NEXT STAGE, HE WILL BECOME MORE SENSIBLE, MORE MODERATE, MORE STATESMANLIKE.' THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED. AT EVERY STAGE, HE STAYED TRUE TO HIMSELF, AND THERE'S NO REASON TO THINK HE WON'T CONTINUE STAYING TRUE TO HIMSELF ` WHICH IS HORRIFYING. WE HEAR THAT HE'S TALKING TO MITT ROMNEY. NOW, LET'S REMIND EVERYBODY ` MITT ROMNEY BAGGED HIM DURING THE CAMPAIGN, CAME OUT AND GAVE A DEVASTATING SPEECH AGAINST TRUMP. WE HEAR NOW THAT HE'S HAVING CHIT-CHATS WITH MITT ROMNEY AND HE'S A POSSIBILITY FOR SECRETARY OF STATE. DO WE BELIEVE IT? YEAH. YEAH, WELL, I MEAN, THERE'S A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE COME ON SIDE. PEOPLE LOVE A WINNER, YOU KNOW? WHAT DO YOU DO? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY? MITT ROMNEY, THOUGH, AS SOON AS SECRETARY OF STATE HAS COME ALONG, HE'S ROLLING UP TO TRUMP TOWER. BUT IS IT A STROKE OF GENIUS? IT IS, YEAH. YEAH. I THINK IT CERTAINLY HELPS. WELL, IT POSSIBLY IS. AND IF YOU REGARD YOURSELF AS A MODERATE OR SENSIBLE REPUBLICAN, DO YOU STAY OUT OR DO YOU GO IN? DO YOU LEAVE IT TO THE LOONIES OR DO YOU TRY AND MAKE THE BEST OF IT? YEAH, AND I MEAN, I TELL YOU ` SECRETARY OF STATE ` IF YOU HAD SOMEONE LIKE MITT ROMNEY THERE, IF THAT DOES BECOME REAL, THE WORLD WILL BREATHE A SIGH OF RELIEF. THAT'S TRUE, YEAH. BECAUSE HE IS A DUDE THAT YOU CAN DO BUSINESS WITH. YOU'VE PROBABLY ALL MADE WRONG PREDICTIONS DURING THIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. < YEP, I HAVE. (LAUGHTER) BUT I JUST WANNA KNOW, IS THE FAMILY, ARE THE KIDS, ARE THEY GONNA END UP IN POSITIONS OF POWER? BECAUSE THAT'S ANOTHER THING THAT EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT. THEY'RE IN A POSITION OF POWER, NO MATTER IF THEY'RE GIVEN ONE OR NOT. NO MATTER IF THEY'VE GOT ONE OR NOT, THEY'VE GOT REAL AND GENUINE POWER BECAUSE OF THEIR ADVISORY ROLE SOME ARE PICKING THE SON-IN-LAW IS GONNA GET SOME KIND OF ROLE. YES, I EXPECT SO. AND CERTAINLY, THEY WERE THE FIRST ON THE LIST, WEREN'T THEY, WHEN TRUMP WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE. BUT HE TAKES COUNSEL FROM THEM. CLEARLY, THEY ARE VERY VERY IMPORTANT TO HIM AND I'M SURE` THERE'S SOME ROLES THEY CAN'T HAVE, BUT I'M SURE THEY WILL FIND ROLES FOR THEM. AFTER KENNEDY, THEY PASSED LEGISLATION SAYING YOU CAN'T GIVE THESE JOBS, GOVERNMENT JOBS, TO YOUR RELATIVES. BUT I THINK PRESIDENTS GET TO A POINT WITH SOMETHING LIKE 4000 POLITICAL APPOINTMENTS. THERE'S SOMETHING THERE, I'M SURE. ALL RIGHT, OK WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. THANKS FOR JOINING US. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF WHAT WILL BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK ` JOHN KEY RETURNS FROM APEC ON TUESDAY. EXPECT TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THE KAIKOURA RECOVERY EFFORT WHEN HE RETURNS, AND ANDREW LITTLE HEADS OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IN MT ROSKILL THIS AFTERNOON. THE NZ NAVY'S 75TH BIRTHDAY CELEBRATIONS CONTINUE WITH AN OPEN DAY IN AUCKLAND'S CBD TODAY, AND MORE EVENTS IN DEVONPORT TOMORROW. BUT THAT'S ALL FROM US THIS WEEK. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND. THANKS FOR JOINING US. YES, SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND, WHEN WE CONTINUE TO DEBATE, DISCUSS AND INTERVIEW ABOUT THE THINGS THAT MATTER. CAPTIONS BY DESNEY SHAW AND ALANA DRAYTON. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2016 THIS PROGRAMME WAS MADE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE NZ ON AIR PLATINUM FUND.