GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO THE NATION. I'M LISA OWEN. TODAY ` HOW STRONG IS THE MAORI-MANA ALLIANCE? OUR PEOPLE DON'T WANNA SEE US FIGHTING. THEY WANNA SEE US UNITED. TO BRING THE MAORI SEATS BACK INTO MAORI HANDS. THE PARTIES SAY THEY WON'T STAND AGAINST EACH OTHER, BUT WILL THEIR FIGHT OVER THE MAORI LAND BILL PULL THEIR DEAL APART? WE'LL ASK MAORI PARTY CO-LEADER, MARAMA FOX. THEN, WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO SET UP A SUCCESSFUL START-UP? WE'LL TALK TO THREE KIWI COMPANIES ABOUT WHETHER THERE'S ENOUGH GOVERNMENT SUPPORT AND WHETHER YOU CAN TEACH KIDS INNOVATION AT SCHOOL. AND IS IT TIME TO RETHINK NEW ZEALAND'S ABORTION LAWS? I THINK IT'S COMPLICATED, UNNECESSARILY COMPLICATED. I THINK IT'S OUT OF DATE. WE'VE GOT LOTS MORE POLITICAL NEWS TO DISCUSS WITH OUR PANEL ` JAMIE WHYTE, CHRIS WIKAIRA AND SUE BRADFORD. AND THEN JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO RUN THROUGH THEIR OWN HIGHLIGHTS OF THE WEEK. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017 IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US TODAY. WE DO LOVE HEARING FROM YOU, SO PLEASE GET IN TOUCH. OUR DETAILS ARE ON SCREEN NOW. AND IF YOU'RE ON TWITTER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ALONG WITH OUR TWITTER PANEL, FORMER NATIONAL CANDIDATE LEWIS HOLDEN AND PR CONSULTANT HAIMONA GREY ON #NATIONNZ. WELL, WITH THE MAORI SEATS SHAPING UP TO BE SOME OF THE MOST FIERCELY CONTESTED OF THIS YEAR'S ELECTION, THE MAORI AND MANA PARTIES HAVE MADE A PACT TO WORK TOGETHER, NOT STANDING AGAINST EACH OTHER, IN ANY SEATS. BUT THE CRACKS ARE ALREADY SHOWING IN THEIR RENEWED RELATIONSHIP, WITH HONE HARAWIRA CALLING THE MAORI PARTY'S TURE WHENUA BILL A POISONOUS CANCER AND SAYING HE WON'T SUPPORT ANY CANDIDATE WHO SUPPORTS THE LAW. SO, CAN THEY WORK IT OUT? WELL, MAORI PARTY CO-LEADER MARAMA FOX JOINS ME NOW. KIA ORA. KIA ORA. SO, HONE HARAWIRA PUTS OUT A PRESS RELEASE THIS WEEK SAYING ` AND I'M QUOTING HIM WHEN I SAY THIS... CARRY ON. YEAH. HE SAYS, 'GIVE ME A CALL, BRO, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.' SO WHEN ARE YOU ALL GETTING TOGETHER TO TALK ABOUT THE MAORI ELECTORATES? TE URUROA'S GIVEN HIM A CALL, AND WE'RE ARRANGING A MEETING WHEN OUR SCHEDULES CAN FIT IT. AND HE'S KEEN TO SIT DOWN AND HAVE A BRIEFING WITH US. I TRIED TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT A WEE WHILE BACK, AND WE KNEW HE DIDN'T SUPPORT THE RMA OR THE TURE WHENUA PRIOR TO SIGNING THE AGREEMENT. OUR AGREEMENT IS ABOUT NOT SCRAPPING WITH EACH OTHER, BUT OVER POINTS OF DIFFERENCE OF ISSUE, THEN HE CAN GO FOR HIS LIFE. BUT TO PEN PEOPLE INTO A DETERMINED COURSE BY SAYING, 'DON'T SUPPORT THIS CANDIDATE OR DON'T SUPPORT THAT CANDIDATE,' YOU'RE RIGHT; THAT MIGHT WEAKEN THAT AGREEMENT, BECAUSE IF THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SUPPORT OUR CANDIDATES IN OUR AREAS, THEN, OBVIOUSLY, THAT GOES FOR HONE; I'M PRETTY SURE HE DOESN'T WANT THAT. WELL, THE THING IS THERE, BECAUSE HE HAS MADE IT CLEAR. HOW DO YOU WORK THROUGH IT? BECAUSE HE'S MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE DOESN'T WANT A BAR OF THE BILL AS IT IS. HE WANTS IT GONE. SO WHAT CAN YOU POSSIBLY CONCEDE OVER THAT PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT WILL SATISFY HIM? WHAT, ACTUALLY, I THINK WE CONCEDE IS THAT THE TURE WHENUA IS A GOOD BILL. WHAT PEOPLE ARE COMING OUT STILL AND CRITICISING ABOUT WAS THE FIRST EXPOSURE DRAFT, THE FIRST READING. WE'VE HAD SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES TO THAT BILL SINCE. WE'VE GOT A WHOLE LIST OF PROFESSORS WHO SENT OUT A LETTER PRIOR TO READING THOSE CHANGES. I'VE SPOKEN TO ONE OF THEM WHO SAID, 'LOOK, I'LL GO BACK AND READ THOSE CHANGES AND SEE IF THAT DOESN'T CHANGE MY MIND.' PEOPLE ARE JUMPING ON THE CRITICAL AND POLITICAL RATHER THAN ACTUALLY READING THE BILL AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO FOR OUR PEOPLE. SO WE'LL TAKE HONE FOR A BRIEFING. MRS FOX, THAT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE STANDING YOUR GROUND AND HONE HASN'T CHANGED HIS MIND. BUT WE'RE HAVING A MEETING. WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE YOU? NO, NO, NO. MA TE KORERO KA WHAKATIKA. IT IS THROUGH OUR CONVERSATIONS AND COMING TOGETHER THAT WE CAN FIND A PATHWAY FORWARD. THE THING THAT IS DIFFERENT NOW WITH OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HONE AND THE MANA PARTY IS WE CAN RING HIM UP AND SAY, 'ALL RIGHT, LET'S GET TOGETHER, 'AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.' AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO. IF YOU CAN RING HIM, SURELY HE CAN PICK UP THE PHONE AND RING YOU TOO. OH, HE DID. SO I'M WONDERING WHY, THOUGH, HE'S COMMUNICATING WITH YOU IN A PRESS RELEASE. OH, NO. COME ON, THAT'S FOR THE POLITICS OF IT ALL. HE HAS TO STAND UP IN FRONT OF THE NATION AND PUT A STAKE IN THE SAND. AND THEN HE'LL GIVE US A CALL AND SAID, 'OH, THIS IS THE PRESS RELEASE THAT'S GONE OUT TODAY,' AND SO I TEXT HIM BACK, AND EVENTUALLY NOW WE'RE GOING TO GET A MEETING TOGETHER. SO HE USED THE PHRASE IN THAT PRESS RELEASE. HE SAID, 'GIVE ME A CALL,' AND HE SAID 'BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE'. TOO LATE IS THIRD READING. NOTHING'S TOO LATE. WE HAVEN'T EVEN GOT TO THE COMMITTEE STAGE. THERE'S A LONG WAY TO GO YET IN THE PASSAGE OF THIS BILL. I SUPPOSE THAT LANGUAGE SOUNDS KIND OF... WELL, IT SOUNDS THREATENING, DOESN'T IT? 'DO THIS NOW OR ELSE.' OR, 'CALL ME NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.' OH, COME ON. DON'T WE ALL KNOW HONE? HOW DID YOU INTERPRET IT? I INTERPRETED IT AS, 'I'LL GIVE YOU A CALL, MATE.' LIKE, SERIOUSLY, THE THING I LOVE ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP AGREEMENT THAT WE'VE GOT WITH MANA AT THE MOMENT IS THAT THESE PEOPLE STAND TOGETHER, AND THEY'RE SMILING, JOKING, THEY CAN TALK FACE TO FACE AND PUT THE ISSUES IN FRONT OF EACH OTHER. WE COULD NOT DO THAT A YEAR AGO. THEY WOULDN'T EVEN GET IN THE SAME ROOM. THEY'RE IN THE SAME ROOM NOW, SO GIVE US A CHANCE TO TALK WITH HONE, AND LET'S SEE WHERE THE CARDS FALL AFTER THAT. BUT WHILE YOU MIGHT BE IN THE SAME ROOM AND ABLE TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION, AS YOU'VE JUST SAID YOURSELF, THIS COULD WEAKEN YOUR RELATIONSHIP. IF WE DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK IT THROUGH. IF WE DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN FACE TO FACE AND GO, 'ALL RIGHT, WE'VE GOT TO TRY AND WORK THIS OUT SOMEHOW SO THAT WE HAVE A MUTUAL BENEFIT. 'AND YOU CAN OPPOSE ANY POLICY THAT YOU LIKE. YOU'RE NOT IN THE SAME PARTY.' THAT'S THE WAY WE OPPOSE THE NATIONAL PARTY WHEN WE DON'T AGREE WITH THEM. BUT IN ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD FROM THIS, YOU NEED TO BREAK THE STALEMATE. HE'S BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT HIS DISLIKE FOR THIS, FOR THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION. AND YOU'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR IN SAYING, 'WE'VE MADE AMENDMENTS, WE'VE DONE THIS, WE'VE DONE THAT.' SO IT KIND OF FEELS LIKE AN IMPASSE. NO, IT'S NOT AN IMPASSE. WE HAVEN'T EVEN HAD THE CONVERSATION YET. LET'S SIT DOWN AROUND A BREAKFAST AND SOME SCRAMBLED EGGS AND WORK IT OUT. I MEAN, THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF AGREE TO DISAGREE. SO WE'LL COME TOGETHER, WE'LL WORK IT OUT, WE'LL FIND OUT WHAT'S THE BEST PATHWAY FOR BOTH OF US. AND THE BEST PART ABOUT THIS IS WE CAN DO THAT. SO IT'S NOT AN IMPASSE UNTIL IT IS. WE KEEP MOVING. HE DESCRIBED IT AS A POISONOUS CANCER. IS HE BEING IRRATIONAL? YES. IS THAT A PERSONAL INSULT? NO. 'COURSE NOT. YOU ASKED ME IF HE'S BEING IRRATIONAL. I'M SAYING IF WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN TOGETHER, I'LL SAY, 'HONE, LET'S TALK ABOUT IT FIRST, AND IF YOU CONTINUE TO THINK THAT WAY AFTERWARDS, THEN CARRY ON.' WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S IRRATIONAL, HIS ATTITUDE TOWARDS IT? BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE THAT EVERYBODY HAS READ THE CHANGES ` BECAUSE THEY'VE ONLY BEEN OUT ONE WEEK ` AND HOW THEY APPLY TO THE BILL. AND I THINK THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE OPENLY CRITICISING AT THE MOMENT, I THINK THEY'RE STILL CRITICISING THE FIRST READING BILL. THERE ARE 130 CHANGES` SO, WHAT, HE JUST DOESN'T UNDERSTAND IT AND HE'S NOT UP TO DATE? NO, NO. I DIDN'T SAY HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT; I JUST THINK THAT PEOPLE HAVE NOT HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO THROUGH THOSE CHANGES AND SEE THE BENEFITS THAT ARE REALLY IN THERE. THEY'RE SCARED THAT THIS BILL WILL ALIENATE LAND. THEY'RE SCARED THAT IT WILL CORPORATIZE LAND. BUT ANYONE WHO HAS A LOOK AT IT WILL KNOW THAT IT ABSOLUTELY STRENGTHENS THE PLACE AND HOLD OF MAORI WHENUA. BUT HE HAS LOOKED AT IT, AND HE DOESN'T LIKE IT. WELL, YOU CAN KEEP GOING DOWN THAT LINE OF QUESTIONING IF YOU LIKE, BUT I'M ALL I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU IS THAT WHEN WE SIT ROUND THE TABLE AND HAVE THE CONVERSATION, IF HE STILL FEELS THAT WAY AFTERWARDS, THEN CARRY ON, DISAGREE. ARE YOU 100% COMMITTED TO IT THE WAY IT IS NOW? YOU PERSONALLY. I PERSONALLY SAID TO TE URUROA RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING, YOU KNOW, 'IF THIS ISN'T RIGHT, THEN I'M NOT SURE I CAN VOTE FOR IT.' SO I HAVE READ IT LINE BY LINE, CLAUSE BY CLAUSE. WE'VE GONE OVER IT WITH THE OFFICIALS. IN FACT, ALL THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WERE MADE IN THE MAORI AFFAIRS SELECT COMMITTEE WERE AGREED TO BY EVERY OPPOSITION MEMBER. THEY DID NOT OBJECT TO ANY OF THEM. SO YOU'RE 100% ON BOARD WITH IT? I AM. OKAY. WELL, WHY NOT SEND IT BACK? BECAUSE THIS IS AN OPTION. YOU COULD SEND IT BACK TO THE MAORI AFFAIRS SELECT COMMITTEE. A BUNCH OF MPS WANT THAT. I KNOW YOU SAY THEY DIDN'T STICK THEIR HANDS UP BEFORE, BUT A BUNCH OF MPS WANT IT SENT BACK TO THAT COMMITTEE. YOU COULD BUY YOURSELF SOME TIME WITH HONE BEFORE THE ELECTION. AND I'M WONDERING ` IS THAT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN? I MEAN, LOOK, THAT'S AN OPTION, AND THAT'S A PATHWAY. I CAN'T TELL YOU THAT THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. DO YOU SUPPORT THAT, THOUGH? HOLD ON. THOSE MPS THAT ARE ASKING FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, AS YOU SAID, DID NOT OBJECT TO ANY OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS. THEY'VE BEEN THROUGH THEM ALL THEMSELVES. SO WHAT TIME ARE THEY ASKING TO BUY? FOR WHAT PURPOSE? NO, BUT FOR YOU. IT'S A COOLING-DOWN PERIOD FOR THE MAORI PARTY AND MANA. THAT COULD BE A WAY OUT FOR YOU GUYS. WOULD IT BE SOMETHING YOU SUPPORT ` GOING BACK TO THE MAORI AFFAIRS SELECT COMMITTEE? WELL, I THINK THE BILL'S IN A GOOD PLACE. I THINK TE URUROA FLAVELL'S DONE A REMARKABLE JOB AT BRINGING IT TO THAT PLACE. HE HAS RESPONDED TO EVERY SUBMISSION. SO ARE YOU RULING IT OUT, THEN, AS AN OPTION? NO, I'M NOT RULING IT OUT. WHAT I'M SAYING IS I FEEL GOOD ABOUT WHERE IT IS. THE PATHWAY THAT GOES FORWARD FROM THIS POINT IS SECOND READING, THIRD READING AND ANYTHING IN BETWEEN. SO LET'S HAVE A LOOK AT WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. LET'S GET ROUND THE COUNTRY SO THAT WE ARE SURE THAT OUR PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IT. SO YOU'RE NOT CLOSING OFF MORE CHANGES? YOU'RE OPEN TO MORE CHANGES? WELL, THAT'S WHAT COMMITTEE STAGE IS. IT'S ABOUT THE CHANGES. IT'S ABOUT SOPS. THEY MIGHT COME FROM THE OPPOSITION; THEY MIGHT COME FROM THE MINISTER. BUT TO SUIT HONE, I'M TALKING ABOUT. TO GET HIM ON BOARD. LOOK, LET'S NOT JUMP AHEAD OF OURSELVES. LET'S HAVE THE CONVERSATION AND SEE WHAT HONE OBJECTS TO, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I CLEARLY HAVE ASKED EVERYBODY WHO'S OBJECTED. 'TELL ME WHAT CLAUSE. TELL ME WHICH PART.' 'THE WHOLE THING,' IS WHAT HE WOULD SAY. HE OBJECTS TO THE WHOLE THING. AND THAT'S WHAT EVERYBODY SAYS. BECAUSE FROM THE OUTSIDE, PEOPLE WATCHING THIS PLAY OUT WILL PROBABLY THINK THAT YOU'RE AT ODDS WITH EACH OTHER. THEY'LL BE WONDERING IF THE BAD BLOOD BETWEEN TE URUROA AND HONE STILL EXISTS. SO ARE YOU ACTUALLY FRIENDS, ARE YOU ACTUALLY MATES, OR ARE YOU JUST UNEASY ALLIES? NO, I THINK WE ARE ACTUALLY FRIENDS AND MATES. LAST TIME I WAS ON THE HUI LAST WEEK WITH HIM, WE WENT OUT AND HAD LUNCH, TALKED ABOUT A WHOLE NUMBER OF THINGS. LOOK, THE BEAUTY OF SITTING ROUND THE TABLE WITH TUKU AND HONE AND TE URUROA AND EVERYBODY ELSE, WITH WHAEA HILDA AND WHANAU, IS THAT IT FEELS LIKE WHANAU. YOU KNOW, AND WHANAU DISAGREE ABOUT THINGS, SO WE'RE GOING TO SIT DOWN TOGETHER, AND WE'RE GOING TO WORK THAT OUT. AND IF THEY STILL WANT TO DISAGREE, THAT IS UP TO THEM. THIS IS A POLITICAL ARRANGEMENT, RIGHT, SO IF YOU LOOK AT MANA'S NUMBERS FROM THE LAST ELECTION, THEY'RE NEXT TO USELESS FOR YOU GUYS. IN TERMS OF MAORI SEATS, THEY WERE BEATEN BY NATIONAL IN THE PARTY VOTE; IN TWO OF THE MAORI SEATS, THEY CAME SIXTH. SO WHAT EXACTLY IS IN IT FOR YOU? WE DON'T SPLIT THE VOTE. I MEAN, YOU ONLY HAVE TO LOOK ACROSS A NUMBER OF THE ELECTORATES TO SEE THAT HAD MANA AND MAORI NOT SPLIT THE VOTE AND HAD VOTED AS ONE, WE WOULD'VE HAD THREE OR FOUR SEATS THIS ELECTION, THIS TERM. BUT THAT BRINGS US RIGHT BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED, DOESN'T IT? BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT, HE'S NOT GOING TO TELL HIS PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR YOU. SO THE VOTE IS STILL SPLIT RIGHT AT THIS SECOND. NO, I WAS THERE WHEN HE SAID IT. MRS FOX. NO, NO, I WAS THERE WHEN HE SAID IT. HE SAID HE'S NOT GOING TO TELL HIS PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR YOU. I WAS NEXT TO HIM WHEN HE SAID THAT. IF THE TURE WHENUA BILL IS LIKE IT IS, HE'S NOT GOING TO ADVISE PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR YOU. AS I'VE SAID` SO THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM, ISN'T IT? NO, IT'S NOT A PROBLEM. THE PROBLEM IS WHEN WE STOP TALKING. WE'VE NOT STOPPED TALKING. WE'VE GOT AN ARRANGEMENT TO COME TOGETHER AND MEET AND SIT AROUND THE TABLE. IF AT THE END OF THAT TIME, HE STILL DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT HE CAN SUPPORT THE TURE WHENUA, THEN THAT WILL BE UP TO HIM. WHAT WE WILL THEN DISCUSS IS WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE ARRANGEMENT? AND IF IT COMES TO THAT, HE'S STATED VERY CLEARLY ON THE PUBLIC RECORD IF HE CAN'T SUPPORT THE BILL, THEN HE WON'T BE TELLING PEOPLE TO SUPPORT YOU GUYS WITH VOTES. WELL, LET'S SEE WHAT HE SAYS AFTER WE HAVE A CONVERSATION. THAT'LL BE GOOD. DO YOU THINK HE'S GOING TO BACK DOWN, OR ARE YOU GOING TO BACK DOWN? I THINK WE'RE GONNA GO THROUGH THE BILL; TALK ABOUT THE THINGS THAT ARE GOOD IN THERE... SOMEBODY'S GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE. ...WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE CHANGES. LET'S HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK ABOUT IT, BECAUSE YOU'RE JUMPING THE GUN. YOU'RE ANTICIPATING WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BEFORE WE'VE EVEN HAD THE CONVERSATION. SO I'LL COME BACK HAPPILY AND HAVE A WHOLE OTHER INTERVIEW WITH YOU ONCE WE'VE HAD THAT CONVERSATION, TELL YOU ALL ABOUT IT. OKAY, WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. YES, WE ARE. I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOME OTHER RELATIONSHIPS. SO, NATIONAL ` LET'S TALK ABOUT THEM. YOU'VE SAID IT COULD BE NATIONAL OR LABOUR, DOESN'T REALLY MATTER; YOU JUST WANT TO BE AT THE TABLE. BUT HAVE YOU LIMITED YOUR OPTIONS BY BEING WITH THE NATS FOR SO LONG? I GUESS THAT'S WHAT THE RHETORIC THAT PEOPLE BUY INTO AROUND 'A VOTE FOR MAORI IS A VOTE FOR NATIONAL'. THAT'S JUST RIDICULOUS. I TELL PEOPLE THAT IT'S NOT A VOTE FOR ME, IT'S NOT A VOTE FOR TE URUROA; A VOTE FOR THE MAORI PARTY IS A VOTE OF FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT AS MAORI WE CAN BE THE CHANGE-MAKERS IN THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE FOR YEARS` HANG ON. I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU, BUT YOU USE THAT PHRASE 'CHANGE-MAKERS', AND YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT BEING AT THE TABLE TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION TO MAKE CHANGE. BUT IS NATIONAL EVEN LISTENING TO YOU? BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT NOT INQUIRY YET INTO THE ABUSE OF MAINLY MAORI PEOPLE IN STATE CARE, ORANGA TAMARIKI, THE KERMADECS. YOU SAY YOU'RE AT THE TABLE` HOLD ON, WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE KERMADECS? TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE KERMADECS. YOU SAY YOU'RE AT THE TABLE. BUT ARE YOU ACTUALLY LOCKED OUT OF THE ROOM ALTOGETHER? ARE THEY LISTENING TO YOU? YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE TIME IT'S MINISTERS WHO HAVE A SET PATHWAY, AND THEY MIGHT AGREE OR DISAGREE ABOUT WHICH WAY TO GO. AND SOMETIMES WE'LL WIN THOSE BATTLES, AND SOMETIMES WE WON'T. AND THAT IS THE POINT. BECAUSE WE'RE TWO PEOPLE, WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO HOLD UP THE KERMADECS UNTIL THEY SORT OUT THE TREATY ISSUES. WITH TWO PEOPLE, WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO GET CHANGES IN THE RMA THAT NOBODY EVER THOUGHT WE'D BE ABLE TO GET. WITH TWO PEOPLE, WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO SECURE OVER THIS TERM ALONE ABOUT $2 BILLION WORTH OF FUNDING FOR MAORI BOTH IN` VOTE HEALTH, VOTE EDUCATION, VOTE MSD. BUT AS YOU WILL BE ACUTELY AWARE, MAORI STATS ARE STILL HORRENDOUS, AREN'T THEY? SO ARE THEY LISTENING TO YOU ENOUGH? ARE YOU GETTING ENOUGH DONE? I THINK THAT WE ARE DOING THE ABSOLUTE BEST THAT WE CAN DO WITH TWO PEOPLE. IN FACT, I THINK WE PUNCH ABOVE OUR WEIGHT. YOU KNOW WHAT I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IN? THAT IF WE COME OUT OF THE ELECTION THIS TIME ROUND WITH FIVE, SIX, SEVEN OR MORE SEATS, THEN WE WILL HAVE A REAL INFLUENCE OVER THE GOVERNMENT. IF YOU MANAGE TO SORT YOUR THINGS OUT WITH MANA. DON'T YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT. WE'LL SORT IT OUT WITH MANA. YOU KNOW WHAT? CAN I SAY ONE MORE THING? I TRY TO BE A FOXY MAMA, AND I'M REALLY BAD AT THAT, BUT I CAN BE A MAMA FOX. THOSE SKILLS OF BEING A MOTHER AND NEGOTIATING WITH NINE CHILDREN ON A DAILY BASIS IS GOING TO BE WHAT HELPS US TALK THIS OUT WITH HONE. YOU'VE GOT HONE'S NUMBER. THAT'S RIGHT. HEY, JUST BEFORE WE GO ` LABOUR. HAVE YOU HAD A YARN WITH THE GUY WHO THINKS THAT YOU'RE NOT A KAUPAPA MAORI PARTY, ANDREW LITTLE? ISN'T THAT HILARIOUS? HAVE YOU HAD A CHAT TO HIM? ON THE DAY BEFORE MATATINI, WHERE WE POWHIRI 2000 PEOPLE ONTO OUR WHENUA? HAVE YOU HAD A CHAT ABOUT POST-ELECTION RELATIONSHIPS? AFTER THE 4% POLL CAME OUT, TWO VERY SENIOR LABOUR PEOPLE SIDLED UP TO ME JUST CASUALLY AND SAID, 'SO, WOULD YOU REALLY GO WITH LABOUR IF YOU HAD THE NUMBERS?' I'M THINKING, OH, IF THEY NEED THE NUMBERS TO GET THROUGH, OF COURSE THEY'LL KNOCK ON OUR DOOR. OF COURSE THEY WILL. ALL RIGHT. GREAT TO TALK WITH YOU. THANKS VERY MUCH MARAMA FOX. A LOT TO TALK ABOUT FROM THAT INTERVIEW LATER WITH OUR PANEL. BUT FIRST WE TALK TO THREE INNOVATIVE BUSINESSES ABOUT WHETHER WE'RE DOING ENOUGH TO SUPPORT START-UPS. AND LATER, ARE OUR ABORTION LAWS OUTDATED? WE TALK TO WOMEN WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH THE PROCESS. WELCOME BACK. THERE ARE CURRENTLY BETWEEN 400 AND 600 COMPANIES DEFINED AS START-UPS OPERATING IN NEW ZEALAND. BUT IN SUCH A SMALL MARKET, HOW HARD IS IT TO SUCCEED, AND WHAT'S CRUCIAL TO THAT SUCCESS? WELL, WE'RE JOINED NOW BY THE DIRECTORS OF THREE VERY DIFFERENT START-UPS ` CECILIA ROBINSON OF MY FOOD BAG, ROBBIE VAN DAM FROM GOOD NATURE AND BEX DE PROSPO FROM ANTEATER NEW ZEALAND. THANKS ALL FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. CECILIA, IF I CAN COME TO YOU FIRST ` MY FOOD BAG IS WORTH, WHAT, $100 MILLION NOW? HOW MUCH DID IT COST TO START UP, THOUGH, AND WHERE DID YOU GET THAT SEED MONEY FROM? WELL, LOOK, IN THE EARLY DAYS, WE WERE A GROUP OF FOUNDING DIRECTORS AND SHAREHOLDERS, AND WE RAISED SOME CAPITAL BETWEEN US, BUT I THINK WE WERE REALLY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT WE NEEDED TO THINK LEAN AND MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE SPENDING MONEY ON THE RIGHT THINGS. SO WHAT DID YOU NEED TO GET OFF THE GROUND? IT WASN'T AS MUCH AS YOU PROBABLY WOULD HAVE THOUGHT AT THAT POINT. IT WAS, YEAH, PROBABLY 200,000, TO BE HONEST. BUT, YOU KNOW, AT THAT POINT, THE MARKET WAS NEW IN NEW ZEALAND AND WE WERE KIND OF FIRST-IN ADVANTAGED, SO WE MADE SURE THAT WE SPENT THE MONEY THAT WE HAD AND WE SPENT IT WELL. SO WHERE DID YOU GET THAT CASH FROM? DID YOU HAVE TO RELY ON HOUSES TO FUND IT LIKE SOME PEOPLE DO OR WHAT? I MEAN, YOU TOTALLY SCRAPE IT TOGETHER, RIGHT? AND FOR US, WE WERE VERY MUCH... WE HAD ANOTHER BUSINESS, AND WE HAD A YOUNG CHILD, SO YOU'RE BASICALLY LIVING OFF VERY LITTLE IS THE ANSWER FOR THAT. SO YOU TAKE THAT RISK, AND HOPEFULLY, YOU SEE SOME REWARD. ROBBIE, YOU MAKE TRAPS TO KILL PREDATORS. I'M JUST WONDERING, FROM WHEN YOU FIRST GOT THE IDEA TILL WHEN YOU GO TO THE MARKET, HOW LONG IS THAT PERIOD OF TIME? UH, WELL, IT DEPENDS WHAT TYPE OF PRODUCT YOU'RE PUTTING INTO THE MARKET, BUT FOR US, WE HAD TO INVENT THE TECHNOLOGY. SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOTHING ON THE PLANET LIKE IT. SO WE HAD TO START RIGHT AT THE VERY, VERY BEGINNING, ASKING THE QUESTIONS, VERY BASIC QUESTIONS, IN A WAY ` WHY DO YOU DO WHAT YOU DO IN TERMS OF THE LARGE-SCALE CONSERVATION PEST-CONTROL INITIATIVE, I GUESS. AND SO IT WAS AT THAT POINT, YOU KNOW, THAT, REALLY, ALL OF OUR ENERGY IS FOCUSED ON PURELY INVENTING TECHNOLOGY, TURNING IT INTO A PRODUCT, COMING UP WITH SOMETHING AND PUT IT TO THE MARKET, YOU KNOW. AND AS MANY ENTREPRENEURS SAY, IF YOU LOVE YOUR FIRST PRODUCT, YOU WAITED TOO LONG. AND WE CERTAINLY DON'T LOVE OUR FIRST PRODUCT. SO WE WERE DESPERATE TO PUT IT TO THE MARKET, GAUGE WHAT PEOPLE THINK AND THEN SHIFT AND MOVE TO IT. SO WHEN YOU'RE DOING THAT, YOU'RE WORKING ON AN IDEA, DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER DAY JOB? WHAT WAS YOUR DAY JOB? WE RAN THREE OTHER BUSINESSES. SO, THERE WERE THREE OF US THAT STARTED THE COMPANY, AND WE'RE PRODUCT DESIGNERS, SO WE WERE MAKING SOME PRETTY FURNITURE. WE EXHIBITED IN MILAN AT THE FURNITURE FAIR. WE DID SOME` THIS IS POLAR OPPOSITE, THOUGH. POLAR OPPOSITE, YOU KNOW, AND NOT TO BE RUDE TO THAT ` WE LOVE THAT ` BUT IT IS REALLY A COOL-FEST. IT'S ABOUT BUILDING A BRAND BASED ON HOW COOL YOU ARE, HOW EDGY YOU ARE, WHEREAS THIS IS, WE SAW THIS AS ` HOW CAN WE CHANGE NEW ZEALAND? WHAT'S OUR CONTRIBUTION TO THE SHAPE OF NEW ZEALAND? HOW CAN WE MAKE THIS A BETTER PLACE FOR`? SO YOU SAW A PROBLEM, AND YOU WENT ABOUT PROVIDING A SOLUTION FOR IT. WE ACTUALLY SET OUT, SORT OF, A ONE-YEAR GOAL, A FIVE-YEAR GOAL, 10, 20, AND 200-YEAR GOAL, AND IT SOUNDS ABSURD, BUT YOU THINK OF TOYOTA, YOU KNOW. THEY WROTE A 50-YEAR BUSINESS PLAN, AND THAT WAS SIX YEARS AGO. THEY TALKED IT OVER. AND THEY HAD THAT AS A MILESTONE. OUR INTENTION IS TO BUILD FORESTS THAT OUR KID'S KID'S KIDS, YOU KNOW, CAN SIT UNDER. BEX, YOU'RE THE NEWEST TO THIS. I'M WONDERING, HOW MANY IDEAS DID YOU GO THROUGH BEFORE YOU DECIDED THIS WAS THE ONE THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GO TO MARKET WITH, AND BRIEFLY TELL PEOPLE WHAT IT IS YOU DO AS WELL, COULD YOU? SURE. SO, ANTEATER IS, FUNDAMENTALLY, A SUSTAINABLE FOOD BUSINESS, AND WHAT WE'RE GOING IS WHOLESALING HIGH-QUALITY, EDIBLE INSECT PRODUCTS TO TOP RESTAURANTS AND SPECIAL EVENTS AROUND NEW ZEALAND. SO, ULTIMATELY, WE'RE HOPING TO MAINSTREAM THE IDEA OF EDIBLE INSECTS AS A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO CONVENTIONALLY FARMED MEAT. SO, DID THE LIGHT BULB JUST GO ON, AND YOU THOUGHT, THIS IS IT? OR DID YOU WADE THROUGH A HUNDRED OTHER IDEAS? THE TRUTH IS THAT OUR BUSINESS WAS LAUNCHED COMPLETELY BACK-TO-FRONT. I MET MY BUSINESS PARTNER AT A YOUNG ENTREPRENEUR'S EVENT CALLED START-UP WEEKEND IN CHRISTCHURCH, WHERE HE PITCHED THIS IDEA, AND I THOUGHT THAT HE WAS A CRAZY PERSON. BUT WITHIN A WEEK, SUDDENLY, WE HAD CUSTOMERS AND WE HAD MOMENTUM ON BOARD, AND ULTIMATELY, IT JUST SNOWBALLED FROM THERE. WE REALLY BUILT ON THIS HUGE FOUNDATION THAT WE FOUND IN THE HIGH-END FOOD COMMUNITY IN NEW ZEALAND, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN IT WAS A PRODUCT LIKE BLACK TRUFFLES OR LIKE SAFFRON. IT WAS REALLY EXCITING, NEW, LOCAL FLAVOUR FOR OUR FOOD CLIENTS. SO FOR ALL OF YOU, I'M WONDERING, WHAT'S THE BIGGEST HURDLE YOU FACED GETTING YOUR IDEA OFF THE GROUND AND GETTING YOUR BUSINESS GOING? I THINK AN IDEA'S NOTHING UNLESS YOU DO IT RIGHT. SO FOR US, IT'S ALL ABOUT EXECUTION AND MAKING SURE THAT YOU'RE REALLY SOLVING A PROBLEM. SO WITH MY FOOD BAG, WE SOLVED THE 'WHAT ARE YOU HAVING FOR DINNER TONIGHT?' PROBLEM. AND REALLY THINKING ABOUT THE CUSTOMER AND HAVING THE CUSTOMER AT THE HEART OF EVERY DECISION YOU MAKE. BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT THE IDEA AND THINK, 'WHOA, UM, THAT'S KIND OF NOT REINVENTING THE WHEEL; 'IT'S REMINDING PEOPLE ABOUT THE WHEEL AND BRINGING IT BACK.' YEAH, I GUESS SO, AND FOR US, YOU KNOW, IT WAS REALLY RESOLVING THE PROBLEM IN TERMS OF NOT ONLY` BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT BEFORE, BUT ACTUALLY DELIVERING ALL THE INGREDIENTS WITH THE RECIPES TO YOUR DOOR REALLY SOLVED THAT PROBLEM, SO, YEAH. WHAT ABOUT THE SINGLE BIGGEST THING YOU CAN PINPOINT AS LEADING TO YOUR SUCCESS? I THINK FOR US, IT'S BEEN LARGELY ABOUT STRATEGIC DECISION-MAKING. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE TANGENTIALLY IN THE SAME INDUSTRY THAT WE'RE IN. BUT WE FOUND THAT IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US TO START WITH THAT HIGH-END CLIENT, TO MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND AND VALIDATE THIS IDEA, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ON THE FACE OF IT THINK THAT IT'S SILLY, OR THAT THERE'S A NOVELTY FACTOR IN IT, AND WE REALLY BELIEVE IN THE MISSION OF WHAT WE'RE DOING. SO THAT STRATEGIC ALIGNMENT HAS BEEN HUGE FOR US. WHAT ABOUT YOU, ROBBIE? YEAH, I THINK WITH US, BEING THE FIRST IN THE SPACE THAT WE'RE WORKING, OF COURSE, THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE'VE INVENTED IS POLAR OPPOSITE TO OUR TWO COMPETITORS ` A TOXIC OR A VERY INTENSIVE TRAP. SO WE HAVE TO SCHOOL PEOPLE ON WHAT IT IS. WE SHOULD TELL PEOPLE WHAT IT IS ` A NON-CHEMICAL MEANS YOU'RE USING TO ERADICATE PESTS. YEAH, SO WE'RE USING A NON-TOXIC METHODOLOGY, BUT WE CAN BE VERY CONTROLLED ABOUT THE THING WE KILL AND CAN` MOST IMPORTANTLY, WE RESPECT THE SPECIES THAT WE'RE KILLING, IN THAT THE ANIMAL` THERE'S NO NEED FOR A SENTIENT BEING TO GO THROUGH THIS SUFFERING IN ORDER TO MAKE OUR LIVES A LITTLE BETTER. OUR VIEW HAS ALWAYS BEEN FAR GREATER THAN NEW ZEALAND, AND THE INVESTMENT... THE INVESTMENT INTO THIS TECHNOLOGY HAS BEEN TO SUPPORT GLOBAL INITIATIVES AROUND CONTROLLING PESTS, BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SUFFERING BIODIVERSITY DECLINE. SO OUR VIEW HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT NEW ZEALAND SHOULD BE SUPPORTED BY THE REST OF THE PLANET AND BE A GOOD GLOBAL CITIZEN AND HAVE OUR ISSUES IN RETURN` SO AN ETHICAL BASIS TO YOUR BUSINESS? TOTALLY, TOTALLY. AND EVERY MORNING, WHEN YOU'RE WAKE UP, HAVING A NICE, STRONG, UNDERLYING ETHICAL BASIS. YOU DON'T CHECK IT AT THE DOOR, YOU KNOW. EVERY DECISION IS DRIVEN BY THOSE VIEWS, AND THE CONSUMER RESPECTS THAT. I FIND IT REALLY INTERESTING THAT NONE OF YOU ARE TECH START-UPS, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF TALK ABOUT TECH START-UPS. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF EMPHASIS THAT'S PUT ON THAT AREA? WELL, I THINK WE WOULD PROBABLY SEE OURSELVES IN THE TECH SPACE, BECAUSE WE'RE IN ECOMMERCE, YOU KNOW. WE ACTUALLY DO INVEST QUITE SIGNIFICANTLY IN THAT SPACE. SO WE'RE PROBABLY NOT A CLEAR-CUT TECH START-UP, AND I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT HOW TECH START-UPS ARE DEFINED NOWADAYS. I DEFINITELY WOULDN'T CONSIDER MY FOOD BAG BEING IN THAT SPACE, BUT AS I SAID, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY AS CLEAR AND BLACK-AND-WHITE. YEAH, YOU'RE NUDGING UP AGAINST IT WITH THE BOTTOM-LINE USE. TOTALLY. SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S ONLINE PURCHASING. SO FOR US, WE SEE OURSELVES DEFINITELY MORE IN THE TECH SPACE, AND PROBABLY WHAT PEOPLE THINK AT FIRST VIEW. BEX? I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY SIMILAR FOR ANTEATER. I THINK AGRITECH IS A HUGE MOMENTUM BEHIND THAT INDUSTRY, AND I THINK THAT AS WE GROW AND BECOME MORE OF AN ESTABLISHED ENTITY, THAT WE'LL DEFINITELY BE LOOKING AT TECH SOLUTIONS FOR HOW WE CAN FURTHER OUR OWN BUSINESS. IT'S JUST ANOTHER` ULTIMATELY, TECHNOLOGY IS A MASSIVE TOOL TO EVERYTHING WE DO, IN THE SAME WAS AS CONSIDERATION FOR THE WAY YOU MAKE YOUR PRODUCT ` YOU KNOW, ENVIRONMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS. IT'S JUST ANOTHER TOOL. IT'S A WAY TO GET PRODUCT FROM ONE SIDE OF THE PLANET TO ANOTHER, AND THEN ONCE YOU'RE IN COUNTRY, HOW DO YOU DELIVER ON EXACTLY WHAT IT IS TO BE A GOOD SUPPLIER OF PRODUCT? IS THAT SOMEONE CAN ORDER IT TODAY AND HAVE IT DELIVERED TOMORROW. SO, THAT'S STILL UNDERPINNING AND INCREDIBLY POWERFUL, BUT WE'RE ABOUT BUILDING A REALLY` FOR THE LONG TERM, A VERY, VERY SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS ` GROWING IT FROM A TECHNOLOGY BASE AND UTILISING THE BRILLIANCE THAT IS TECHNOLOGY THAT WE'VE GOT AND USING IT TO DELIVER A DIFFERENT ETHIC. I'M WONDERING ` IS THERE ENOUGH SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST STARTING OUT FROM THE GOVERNMENT? YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT A GROUP OF YOU FUNDING IT YOURSELVES. ROBBIE, I THINK YOU GOT A DOC CONTRACT TO START OFF WITH, DIDN'T YOU? AND YOU WON A PRIZE. WE DID, WHICH ACTUALLY WASN'T GOVERNMENTAL, SO I CAN'T SAY... BUT BECAUSE WE'RE SORT OF A DIRECT BY-PRODUCT OF THE START-UP ECOSYSTEM, WE HAVE GARNERED A HUGE AMOUNT OF SUPPORT, BOTH FROM PRIVATE AND PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS. THE PRIZE THAT WE WON WAS THROUGH THE UNIVERSITY OF CANTERBURY'S ENTREPRENEURSHIP CENTRE. IT WAS THE LARGEST YOUNG ENTREPRENEURS' COMPETITION IN THE REGION, WHICH CERTAINLY HAS HELPED US BOOTSTRAP OUR BUSINESS. BUT THROUGH THAT COMPETITION, WE GOT OURSELVES ALIGNED WITH A WHOLE RANGE OF OTHER ORGANISATIONS, LIKE CALLAGHAN INNOVATION AND CANTERBURY DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION, SO WE'VE MANAGED TO GARNER A HUGE AMOUNT OF SUPPORT BY BUILDING THOSE NETWORKS. I THINK THERE IS ROOM, THOUGH, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE MORE SUPPORT TO START-UPS. AND I THINK THAT FOR US, AS A BUSINESS, THERE WE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LOOKED AT US AND THOUGHT, 'WHAT ARE YOU DOING?' AND YOU'RE EITHER GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL, AND SO I THINK THERE IS DEFINITELY ROOM FOR SOME IMPROVEMENT THERE AS WELL. FINANCIAL OR MENTORING? I THINK PROBABLY FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES, TO BE FRANK, BUT LOOK, I THINK A LOT OF START-UPS ARE LOOKING FOR FINANCIAL INPUT INITIALLY, SO I THINK IF THERE'S A MORE ROBUST SYSTEM AROUND SOME OF THE PROGRAMMES, MAYBE THAT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL. BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT, THERE'S THIS 300 MILLION VENTURE INVESTMENT FUND, WHICH GOES INTO GRANTS FOR BUSINESSES. DO YOU THINK IT'S FAIR FOR TAXPAYERS TO INVEST IN THE FUTURE WEALTH OF COMPANIES LIKE YOURS? PERSONALLY, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, WE HAD AN INNOVATION FUND APPLICATION. SO, IT WAS A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY OVER THE LENGTH OF THE LAST 10 YEARS. IT WORKS OUT ABOUT $55,000 A YEAR IS WHAT WE WERE GIVEN. BUT IN RETURN` IN TOTAL, THERE WAS $600,000 GIVEN TO US, AND WE PAY THAT BACK IN TAXES EVERY COUPLE OF QUARTERS. AND NOT ONLY THAT, IN EMPLOYMENT. AND CAN I SAY MY FOOD BAG EMPLOYS 130 STAFF. WE'VE GOT SEVERAL OTHER SUPPLIERS THAT HAVE SIGNIFICANT STAFF RESOURCE. MY FOOD BAG IS GROWING THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY ALONGSIDE OUR SUPPLIERS. SO WE'RE PROUD OF THAT. IT'S AN INVESTMENT IN THE COUNTRY. WE LIKE TO TALK ABOUT KIWIS BEING REALLY ADVENTUROUS ` NUMBER 8 FENCING WIRE AND ALL THE REST OF IT. BUT WHEN IT COMES TO PUTTING EVERYTHING YOU HAVE ON THE LINE TO PURSUE AN IDEA, ARE WE RISK ADVERSE, DO YOU THINK? I THINK THE ONE THING THAT WE'RE REALLY BAD AT IS CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT. SO, WE'RE VERY GOOD AT INVENTING. THERE'S NO DENYING NUMBER 8 INVENTIVENESS IS IN OUR GENES. THE ISSUE IS THAT THAT'S GENERALLY WHERE WE STOP, WITH NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS ` YOU THINK OF FISHER & PAYKEL HEALTHCARE, FORMWAY FURNITURE, ALL THESE NEW ZEALAND PRODUCT COMPANIES. THE CRITICAL ELEMENT IS THAT THEY DELIVERED ON AN IDEA, AND THEN THEY CONTINUED TO SUPPORT THAT AND CONTINUED TO GROW THAT AND CONTINUED TO IMPROVE THAT. AND I THINK MOST` SO WE'RE NOT PUSHING OURSELVES HARD ENOUGH? I THINK, FUNDAMENTALLY, IT'S ACTUALLY SUPPORT FROM THE COMMUNITY, FROM ALL OF NEW ZEALAND, TO UNDERSTAND, ACTUALLY, WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE A REALLY, REALLY GOOD PRODUCT. IT'S NOT THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HIT THE MONEY ON THE FIRST PRODUCT. AND THAT IS` YOU KNOW, YOU THINK OF ALLBIRDS SNEAKERS ` BEAUTIFUL WOOLLEN PRODUCT, AND IT'S TRANSLATED INTO AN AMAZING PRODUCT. THE FIRST PRODUCT, I'M SURE, THAT THEY WERE EMBARRASSED ABOUT. BUT PEOPLE BOUGHT IT. KICKSTARTER SUPPORTED IT. WE ALL TOOK IT ON AND THOUGHT, 'YUP, THIS IS A BRILLIANT IDEA. THEY'RE NOT PERFECT YET.' BUT THE SECOND TIME ROUND, THEY ARE INCREDIBLY PRODUCTS. AND THAT IS THE KEY ` IS THAT WE CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THESE PEOPLE AND CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THEIR IDEAS. AND IT'S THE ONGOING IMPROVEMENT THAT IS ACTUALLY THE THING THAT WE'RE REALLY BUYING INTO WHEN WE BUY A PRODUCT. WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, BUT I REALLY WANT TO ASK YOU GUYS ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE THE EDUCATION SYSTEM ` ARE WE DOING WHAT WE NEED TO TO TURN OUT YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE ENTREPRENEURS? ARE WE TEACHING RESILIENCE AND INNOVATION? DO WE NEED TO? AND IS THERE SOME STUFF THAT WE NEED TO GET RID OF? I THINK THERE REALLY IS. I MEAN, THERE'S DEFINITELY SOME MOVEMENT, AND THERE ARE SOME REALLY GOOD PROGRAMMES OUT THERE THAT ARE REALLY EXPLORING THAT SIDE OF IT. BUT CAN WE DO MORE AND CAN WE BE BETTER? ABSOLUTELY. AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY CRITICAL, AND I THINK THAT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE KNOW AND WHO ARE EXECUTING GREAT BUSINESSES OUT THERE TO BE INVOLVED IN THAT PROCESS. SO THAT'S WHAT'S EXCITING FOR THE FUTURE. BEX, WHAT ABOUT YOU? DO YOU THINK YOU LEARNED WHAT PUSHED YOU FORWARD IN YOUR BUSINESS FROM SCHOOL OR SOMEWHERE ELSE? THE TRUTH IS THAT I WENT THROUGH A SORT OF STANDARD SCHOOL PROCESS AND WENT TO UNI, AND I GOT A DEGREE, AND I GOT A MASTER'S DEGREE, AND THEN I WENT INTO THE WORKFORCE, AND ACTUALLY, LAST YEAR I DID A GRADUATE DIPLOMA IN INNOVATION AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP THROUGH ARA INSTITUTE OF CANTERBURY. AND I THINK THAT, FOR ME, PUSHED ME IN WAYS THAT MY PREVIOUS EDUCATION NEVER HAD. AND THOSE SKILLS, THE PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF ENTREPRENEURIAL AND INNOVATION SKILLS HAS BEEN THE CORE OF WHAT'S HELPED ME TO LAUNCH THIS BUSINESS. CAN YOU START THAT PROCESS AT SCHOOL, ROBBIE, THOUGH? I THINK WE'RE EMPLOYING TODAY PEOPLE COMING OUT OF UNIVERSITIES WHO WHILE THEY WERE 13 ARE USING THE SOFTWARE THAT WE LEARNED AT THE END OF UNIVERSITY. IT'S REMARKABLE, THE EDUCATION. SO I THINK, THOUGH, WHAT IS MISSING WITHIN EDUCATION IS ACTUALLY TEACHING PEOPLE WHAT A START-UP IS, WHAT BEING ENTREPRENEURIAL IS, WHAT A BUSINESS IS, HOW A BUSINESS RUNS. AND WE WERE TALKING EARLIER ABOUT SWEDEN AND THAT IT'S FUNDAMENTALLY INGRAINED AND ENTRENCHED WHAT NORDIC DESIGN IS. AND IN NEW ZEALAND, WE MAYBE TAKE THAT FOR GRANTED THAT WE DON'T NEED TO LEARN THAT. AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE EDUCATION LIES. ALL RIGHT. REALLY INTERESTING TO TALK TO YOU ALL. THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. AFTER THE BREAK, IS IT TIME TO UPDATE OUR ABORTION LAWS? BUT FIRST, JEREMY CORBETT AND PAUL EGO WITH SOME CULINARY ADVICE. THE BIG QUESTION THIS WEEK ` WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT THE P PROBLEM? PINEAPPLE? EXACTLY. SHOULD IT BE ON PIZZA? NO. PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA IS LIKE PRIME MINISTERS ON FACEBOOK, JEREMY. NO. BUT IF YOU'RE THE COOK, ISN'T IT YOUR DECISION? WELL, DID EVERYONE VOTE FOR YOU TO BE THE COOK OR ARE YOU JUST DOING THE JOB COS THE PREVIOUS COOK LEFT? GOOD POINT. SIR GEOFFREY PALMER BACK IN THE NEWS. HE SAYS WHEN IT COMES TO VOTING, WE SHOULD ADOPT AUSSIE RULES. WHAT, YOU MEAN RIP OUR SLEEVES OFF AND PUT ON REALLY TIGHT SHORTS? NO, THAT VOTING SHOULD BE COMPULSORY. BUT YOUR IDEA HAS SOME MERIT AS WELL, YEP. HMM. CAN WE TAKE A VOTE ON COMPULSORY VOTING? SURE. IN OTHER NEWS, JACINDA ARDERN MADE A JOKE IN PARLIAMENT AT THE EXPENSE OF TODD LE BARCLAY. YEAH, SHE DID, AND I GUESS IF SHE'S THE JOKER, THEN ANDREW LITTLE MUST BE BATMAN. HOW'S THAT? WELL, YOU KNOW, NO ACTUAL POWERS. ALTHOUGH HE DID MAKE HIS OWN JOKE THIS WEEK, DIDN'T HE? HIS SETTLEMENT OFFER IN THAT DEFAMATION CASE. OH, YEAH, THAT WAS PRETTY FUNNY. AND MAYBE GARETH MORGAN SHOULD'VE STUCK WITH THE CAT THING. I SEE HE'S GOING FERAL ON TWITTER NOW WITH LINES LIKE, 'ONLY WHORES WILL DO ANYTHING FOR MONEY.' WELL, THAT'S WHY I'M DOING THIS. THAT EXPLAINS THE FISHNETS. YEAH, MY EYES ARE UP HERE, MATE. SORRY. WELCOME BACK. NEW ZEALAND'S ABORTION LAWS HAVE BEEN IN PLACE SINCE 1977, AND CRITICS SAY AN UPDATE IS WELL OVERDUE. TERMINATING A PREGNANCY IS STILL A CRIME UNLESS APPROVAL IS GIVEN BY TWO DOCTORS, USUALLY ON THE GROUNDS OF A RISK TO THE MENTAL HEALTH OF THE MOTHER. THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THE LAW IS FINE AS IT IS, BUT CALLS FOR CHANGE ARE COMING FROM MANY QUARTERS, AS NICOLA KEAN REPORTS. (SLOW PIANO MUSIC) FALLING PREGNANT IS A LIFE-CHANGING EXPERIENCE. IT WAS FOR A, BUT NOT IN THE USUAL WAY. I WAS IN A LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIP. IT WASN'T VERY HEALTHY TOWARDS THE END. I WAS USING CONTRACEPTION FOR YEARS AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, SOMETHING HAPPENED, I MUST'VE MADE A MISTAKE WITH IT, AND THEN I FOUND OUT I WAS PREGNANT. SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE FINANCIAL MEANS OR THE SUPPORT TO RAISE A CHILD. IT WAS VERY SAD, AND I SPENT WEEKS AGONISING OVER WHAT I WOULD DO AND RUNNING OVER ALL THE OPTIONS IN MY MIND, AND IT WAS A VERY UPSETTING TIME. SO SHE WENT TO THE LOCAL FAMILY PLANNING CLINIC. I THOUGHT THAT I WOULD GO IN THERE AND EXPLAIN MY SITUATION AND MY DECISION AND THEN I WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO AN ABORTION. BUT SHE THEN SAID, 'OK, WE NOW NEED TO GO GET TESTS DONE. YOU HAVE TO GET AN ULTRASOUND. 'YOU HAVE TO GET ANOTHER DOCTOR TO SIGN OFF.' AND THEN I SAID, 'WHAT DO YOU MEAN SIGN OFF?' AND SHE SAYS, 'WELL, YOU NEED TO JUSTIFY TO ME WHY YOU NEED THIS AND WHY YOU CAN'T HAVE A CHILD.' 'THE NATION' HAS SPOKEN TO A NUMBER OF WOMEN ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES. SOME DIDN'T WANT TO BE IDENTIFIED. AND THE COMMON THEME THAT SEEKING AN ABORTION IN NEW ZEALAND IS A DRAWN-OUT PROCESS THAT ADDS STRESS AND DISCOMFORT TO AN ALREADY FRAUGHT SITUATION. I THINK IT'S UNNECESSARILY COMPLICATED. I THINK IT'S OUT OF DATE. DAME MARGARET SPARROW HAS BEEN ADVOCATING FOR ABORTION LAW REFORM FOR DECADES. I THINK IT'S DEMEANING TO WOMEN, BECAUSE WOMEN CAN'T MAKE THE DECISION THEMSELVES. THE DECISION HAS TO BE MADE BY TWO CERTIFIED CONSULTANTS, AND ALSO I DON'T THINK WE NEED GROUNDS FOR ABORTION. 98% ARE DONE ON THE GROUNDS OF MENTAL HEALTH, WHICH I THINK IS RIDICULOUS. UNDER NEW ZEALAND LAW, ABORTION IS A CRIME, BUT THE LAW OUTLINES A FEW SCENARIOS WHERE WOMEN CAN OBTAIN AN ABORTION AT UNDER 20-WEEKS GESTATION ` IF THE PREGNANCY IS A RISK TO THE PHYSICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH OF THE MOTHER; IF THERE'S A SUBSTANTIAL RISK THAT THE CHILD WOULD BE SERIOUSLY HANDICAPPED; IF THE CHILD IS A RESULT OF INCEST; OR IF THE WOMAN IS 'SEVERELY SUBNORMAL'. 'HANDICAPPED' AND 'SUBNORMAL' ARE NOT TERMS YOU HEAR MUCH ANY MORE, BUT MORE ON THAT LATER. THERE'S A LOT OF APPOINTMENTS, AND I THINK THE WAY IT'S SET UP, YOU CAN'T REALLY GO TO THE NEXT APPOINTMENT UNTIL THE FIRST ONE IS DONE. SO IT'S QUITE STAGGERED IN THAT WAY. KATIE RUSCOE HAD AN ABORTION A FEW YEARS AGO AND STRUGGLED TO FIND INFORMATION ON THE PROCESS, SO SHE CAME UP WITH HER OWN. HER SERIES IN THE ONLINE MAGAZINE 'THE VILLAINESSE' DESCRIBES THE PROCESS OF TERMINATING A PREGNANCY IN DETAIL BASED ON INTERVIEWS WITH SEVERAL WOMEN. I GUESS THE OVERALL THING WAS PROBABLY JUST STRESS OVER THE WAIT TIME. I DON'T THINK ANYONE HAD A SUPER NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE. IT WAS JUST MORE THAT IT COULD'VE BEEN A BETTER EXPERIENCE FOR THEM HAD IT NOT DRAGGED ON FOR SUCH A LONG TIME. WHEN A WOMAN DECIDES TO SEEK AN ABORTION, SHE FIRST HAS TO GET A REFERRAL FROM HER DOCTOR. SHE HAS TO UNDERGO A NUMBER OF TESTS, INCLUDING AN ULTRASOUND. SHE'LL SEE TWO DOCTORS CALLED CERTIFYING CONSULTANTS WHO GIVE THE SIGN-OFF FOR THE TERMINATION. SHE'LL ALSO BE OFFERED COUNSELLING. IN SOME AREAS, IT'S COMPULSORY. RUSCOE SAID FOR HER THE PROCESS TOOK A MONTH. I HAD PRETTY MUCH EVERY SIDE EFFECT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO GET. THAT MADE IT REALLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO WORK, REALLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO KEEP IT FROM PEOPLE AROUND ME EMOTIONALLY, IT WAS REALLY DIFFICULT, IT WAS STRESSFUL. IT WAS PRETTY MUCH THE LONGEST MONTH OF MY LIFE. FOR A, THE PROCESS WAS SIMILAR. IT WAS EXTREMELY TIRING, YEAH. IT TOOK EVERY OUNCE OF ENERGY TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE, TO JUST GO THROUGH MY DAY-TO-DAY WITHOUT LETTING EVERYTHING GO. THAT WAS HARD, YEAH. AND A BAD EXPERIENCE WITH A SOCIAL WORKER MADE IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT. IT DID FEEL LIKE I WAS AT THE MERCY OF EVERYBODY ELSE AND THEIR OPINIONS AND WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS BEST. AND IT IS MY BODY, AND I MADE THE BEST DECISION I COULD AT THE TIME, AND I DON'T REGRET IT. BUT THAT WHOLE PROCESS ADDED JUST SO MUCH EXTRA PRESSURE ON ME. I WAS DEFINITELY IN MY RIGHT MIND, BUT IT COULD'VE PUSHED ME OVER THE EDGE... AFTERWARDS BECAUSE OF THE STRESS INVOLVED IN THAT. THE MOST RECENT RESEARCH IN 2010 FOUND THE AVERAGE TIME FROM REFERRAL TO PROCEDURE WAS 25 DAYS. ANOTHER STUDY IN 2011 FOUND THE PROCESS TOOK 10 DAYS LESS AT PRIVATE CLINICS, BUT IT COMES AT A COST. I THINK OVER $1000, AND THAT'S JUST NOT DOABLE FOR A LOT OF WOMEN. UM, IF I COULD GO BACK, THAT PROBABLY WOULD'VE BEEN. I WOULD'VE FOUND THE MONEY. BUT NOT EVERYONE CAN DO THAT. DAME MARGARET SPARROWS SAYS THE LENGTHY PROCESS ALSO INCREASES THE MEDICAL RISKS AND LIMITS THE OPTIONS. THE EARLIER THE BETTER FOR ABORTIONS AND, UM, UNDER EIGHT WEEKS, UM, IS, UM, A GOOD TIME, UH, A VERY SAFE TIME TO HAVE AN ABORTION. AND IN OUR COUNTRY, UM, I THINK THE FIGURES ` I'M NOT QUITE SURE OF THE ACTUAL FIGURES ` BUT THEY'RE WELL DOWN ON COUNTRIES THAT DO PROVIDE A GOOD MEDICAL ABORTION SERVICE. MEDICAL ABORTION IS WHEN A WOMAN TAKES PILLS TO INDUCE A MISCARRIAGE. IT'S ONLY AVAILABLE UP TO NINE-WEEKS GESTATION. IN 2015, 55% OF TERMINATIONS WERE CARRIED OUT BEFORE 10 WEEKS. BUT IN THE UNITED KINGDOM THE SAME YEAR, THAT FIGURE WAS 80%. AND IN THE UNITED STATES, THE LATEST AVAILABLE DATA FROM 2013 HAD THE FIGURE AT 81%. TERRY BELLAMAK FROM THE ABORTION LAW REFORM ASSOCIATION SAYS THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH. IT STACKS UP PRETTY POORLY. SO YOU COULD BE TIMED OUT INTO, YOU KNOW` OUT OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A MEDICAL ABORTION. YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE A SURGICAL ABORTION. OR YOU COULD BE TIMED OUT OF THE EARLY SURGICAL ABORTION, WHICH IS MUCH LESS` IS LESS INTENSE. B HAS HAD TWO TERMINATIONS ` ONE 10 YEARS AGO AND ANOTHER MORE RECENTLY. FOR HER, THE PROCESS WAS SHORTER, BUT DURING COUNSELLING SHE WAS TOLD THE REASON SHE WANTED AN ABORTION WASN'T VALID. I MEAN, IT WAS A MOMENT OF REAL TERROR ` OF, LIKE, IF SHE SAYS NO, THAT COULD BE THE END OF IT. AND THE THOUGHT OF BEING FORCED INTO SOMETHING AS MASSIVE AS PARENTHOOD WAS TERRIFYING. YOU KNOW, I REALLY HAD TO BACKTRACK AND KIND OF SAY WHAT THEY WANTED TO HEAR, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY THAT IT WOULD NEGATIVELY AFFECT MY MENTAL HEALTH. I FELT THAT I HAD TO LIE, UM, ABOUT THE REASONS. YEAH, I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT IT WOULDN'T AFFECT PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO MAKE THAT CLAIM. IT'S` I MEAN, IT'S AN AFFRONT TO HUMAN DIGNITY. AND YOU HAVE TO LIE IN ORDER TO GET, YOU KNOW, RUN-OF-THE-MILL HEALTHCARE THAT IS PERFECTLY SAFE AND AVAILABLE IN MOST COUNTRIES. IN 2015, CLINICS IN NEW ZEALAND PERFORMED 13,000 ABORTIONS. BUT ACCESS IS BY NO MEANS GUARANTEED FOR WOMEN. LAST YEAR CERTIFYING CONSULTANTS FOUND 250 ABORTIONS NOT JUSTIFIED. THE ABORTION SUPERVISORY COMMITTEE COULD NOT CLARIFY THE REASONS OR WHETHER A THIRD CERTIFYING CONSULTANT WENT ON TO APPROVE THE ABORTION. THE ABORTION SUPERVISORY COMMITTEE OVERSEES THE LAW IN NEW ZEALAND. IN A STATEMENT TO 'THE NATION' IT SAYS THERE ARE NUMBER OF FACTORS THAT INFLUENCE THE LENGTH OF TIME IT TAKES FROM REFERRAL TO PROCEDURE AND THAT IT'S IMPORTANT WOMEN TAKE THE TIME THEY NEED TO DECIDE. IT ALSO SAYS IT'S ENCOURAGES PROVIDERS TO SEE WOMEN IN A TIMELY MANNER. BUT SPEAKING AT A RECENT SELECT COMMITTEE HEARING, IT ALSO OUTLINED SOME CHANGES IT WANTS MADE. WE ARE DOING OUR BEST TO OPERATE WITHIN LEGISLATION THAT IS 40 YEARS OLD. NOW, THAT MAY NOT BE THE MAGNA CARTA, BUT IN TERMS OF WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY HEALTH LAW, ALTHOUGH IT SITS UNDER THE CRIMES ACT, THAT'S A LONG TIME FOR, UM, LEGISLATION NOT TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY UPDATED. AMONG THOSE CHANGES, THE COMMITTEE WANTS THE GOVERNMENT TO UPDATE THE TERM 'SEVERELY SUBNORMAL' IN THE LEGISLATION. BUT THE GOVERNMENT SAYS CHANGE ISN'T NECESSARY. NO, LOOK, WE'VE MADE IT QUITE CLEAR THAT IT'S NOT SOMETHING WE'RE PLANNING TO REVIEW JUST AT THE MOMENT. OUR MAIN CONCERN IS THAT THE LAW IS WORKING AS PARLIAMENT INTENDED. I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY INDICATION THAT CLUMSY LANGUAGE IS AFFECTING ITS OPERATION. THAT'S A CRITICAL THING FOR ME. AND NATIONAL ISN'T THE ONLY PARTY APPARENTLY DUCKING FOR COVER. LABOUR WANTS A LAW COMMISSION REVIEW INTO ABORTION LAW BUT ITS SPOKESPERSON, JACINDA ARDERN, DECLINED TO COMMENT FOR THIS STORY. HER SPOKESPERSON SAID IT'S BECAUSE IT'S A CONSCIENCE ISSUE RATHER THAN A PARTY ONE. WELL, THE THING THAT WE WANT POLITICIANS TO DO AT THIS POINT ` WE WOULD LIKE FOR EACH PARTY TO COMMIT TO A PROCESS OF GETTING A REVIEW FROM THE LAW COMMISSION. WE THINK THAT THAT IS A GOOD FIRST STEP. THE GREENS AND ACT SUPPORT DECRIMINALISING ABORTION. THE GREEN PARTY'S JAN LOGIE SAYS CHANGING THE LAW ISN'T A TOP-LINE PRIORITY BUT SAYS IT'S A FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE. AND WHEN WE HAVE A LAW THAT IS BEING LOOSELY INTERPRETED, UM, WE CAN FEEL GRATEFUL, BUT WE CAN'T FEEL SECURE. AND I REALLY THINK THAT IS ANOTHER CALL FOR US TO ACT AND TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR LAW, UM, REFLECTS WHAT WE WANT. MEANWHILE, THE WOMEN WE SPOKE TO SAY CHANGE IS NEEDED. I DIDN'T REALISE UNTIL I WAS IN THE WAITING ROOM HOW MANY WOMEN WERE THERE AND THERE ARE DOCTORS AND NURSES DOING THIS DAILY. IT IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE MORE OPENLY DISCUSSED, AND WE NEED TO OFFER MORE SUPPORT TO OUR WOMEN, NOT JUDGEMENT. AND AFTER THE BREAK, WE'RE WITH OUR PANEL ` JAMIE WHYTE, CHRIS WIKAIRA AND SUE BRADFORD. WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` FORMER ACT PARTY LEADER JAMIE WHYTE, EX-GREEN MP SUE BRADFORD AND PR CONSULTANT CHRIS WIKAIRA. GOOD MORNING TO YOU ALL. KIA ORA. CHRIS, DO YOU THINK MAORI PARTY AND MANA ARE REAL, TRUE-BLUE FRIENDS? OR IS THERE A HEADING-FOR-THE-ROCKS SCENARIO HERE? TRUE-BLUE? BROWN FRIENDS, BEIGE FRIENDS,... (LAUGHTER) ...NOT SURE, BUT IT'S HONE BEING HONE. THIS IS WHAT HONE IS LIKE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK VERY FAR BACK ` OR YOU CAN LOOK A LONG WAY BACK AT HOW HONE HAS REACTED TO THINGS, AND THAT'S WHAT HE DOES. THIS IS HOW HE DOES IT. YEAH, BUT HE'S KINDA THROWN DOWN A BIT OF A CHALLENGE, HASN'T HE? OH, HE ALWAYS DOES. THERE'S NOTHING NEW IN THIS. HE SAYS, 'I DON'T WANT THIS, AND I'M GONNA TELL MY PEOPLE NOT TO VOTE FOR YOUR PEOPLE UNLESS YOUR CHANGE YOUR MIND. SO WHERE'S THE WAY FORWARD? AGAIN, THAT'S WHAT HONE DOES. HE WILL SHOOT FROM THE HIP AND THEN HE'LL HAVE A TALK ABOUT THINGS LATER. HE'S DONE THIS MANY, MANY TIMES. AND IT'S A BIT OF A NGAPUHI THING, TOO. WE CAN BE A BIT LIKE THAT, AS YOU KNOW. WE'LL CHUCK IT OUT THERE AND HAVE MORE THAN ROBUST DEBATES ABOUT THINGS. I THINK HE IS LACKING SOME FACTS ON THIS ONE. WHAT HE HAS SAID ABOUT IT AND WHAT IS IN THE BILL DON'T SEEM TO MATCH UP FROM MY READING OF IT. I DID A LITTLE BIT OF WORK ON IT EARLIER ON, NOT THE LATEST ITERATIONS. AND I DON'T THINK HE'S GOT IT RIGHT, SO THAT CONVERSATION WITH MARAMA MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT OF, WELL, MM, DO I HAVE TO BACK UP MY WAKA? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WAY FORWARD IS, SUE, WITH THIS? SHE'S SAYING, 'HEY, IT'S NOT OVER YET. WE'RE GONNA HAVE A CONVERSATION AND IT'S ALL GONNA WORK OUT,' BUT EVERYBODY SEEMS TO BE, 'SHE SAID SHE SUPPORTS IT 100% AS IT IS, AND HONE SAYS NO, I DON'T LIKE IT.' WHO'S GONNA BE THE ONE TO FOLD? I DON'T THINK ANYONE WILL NECESSARILY FOLD. IT'S HARD TO SEE HONE FOLDING, EVEN IF SOME OF WHAT CHRIS SAYS IS TRUE. I JUST THINK MARAMA HAD A VERY PRAGMATIC UNDERSTANDING ` AS SHE WOULD, OF COURSE; AS YOU WOULD ` OF MAORI POLITICS, AND THIS IS HOW THINGS OPERATE. THEY DO NEED` THEY'RE APPEALING TO SEPARATE CONSTITUENTS. YES, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR OWN PARTIES. HONE HAS TO APPEAL TO THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT MANA. MARAMA HAS TO APPEAL TO THE PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT MAORI PARTY. AND FROM MY THREE YEARS IN THE MANA PARTY, I'VE CERTAINLY FOUND THROUGH THAT WHOLE TIME, SO MANY TANGATA WHENUA REALLY WANTED THE TWO TO COME BACK TOGETHER AGAIN. THEY DID NOT LIKE IT THAT MANA AND MAORI PARTY WERE SEPARATED. AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE A GREAT STRENGTH FOR BOTH MANA AND THE MAORI PARTY THAT THE LEADERS OF BOTH THOSE GROUPS UNDERSTAND REALLY WELL. AND MAORI UNDERSTAND THERE'S THESE DIFFERENCES, THESE BIG FIGHTS THAT HAPPEN. BUT UNDERNEATH, THEY SAY, YEAH, WE'RE TOGETHER, WE'RE MAORI. AND ANDREW LITTLE TALKING ABOUT KAUPAPA MAORI IN THE WAY HE DID WAS SO INSULTING, AND THE APPROACH THAT LABOUR HAS TAKEN LATELY HAS BEEN SO PATRONISING TO MAORI THAT I THINK THAT HAS STRENGTHENED MAORI AND MANA'S HAND AS WELL. BUT THE THING IS, JAMIE, SHE CONCEDED THERE, OR SHE SAYS, THAT THE VALUE OF THIS DEAL IS NOT SPLITTING THE VOTES. YET IF THEY CAN'T SORT THIS, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN. THE VOTE'S GONNA BE SPLIT. THAT'S WHY I THINK THEY WILL SORT IT. HOW? I MEAN, THEY WOULD BE ACTING AGAINST THEIR OWN INTERESTS NOT TO SORT IT OUT. WELL, MARAMA'S A VERY CHARMING WOMAN. WELL, SHE SAID SHE'S RAISED NINE KIDS; SHE CAN HANDLE HONE. (LAUGHS) I THINK IF ANYBODY CAN HEAL A RIFT, IT'S HER, AND I THINK THE VOTERS, ALSO, OUGHT TO UNDERSTAND INDEPENDENTLY OF ANYTHING HONE SAYS THAT IT'S IN THEIR INTEREST TO COOPERATE THIS WAY. SO I'D BE` WELL, PEOPLE DO OCCASIONALLY ACT AGAINST THEIR OWN INTEREST, BUT I'D BE AMAZED IF THEY CAN'T SORT THIS OUT, REALLY. AS MARAMA SAID, I THINK HONE'S GOT THE WRONG END OF THE STICK ABOUT THE BILL. I'VE CHECKED IT OUT, AND AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, IT DOESN'T HAVE THE FEATURES HE'S COMPLAINING ABOUT. SO THE OTHER THING ` YOU BROUGHT THIS UP, SUE ` THE LABOUR PARTY. I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING AS SOON AS THEY HIT THE 4% MARK IN THE POLLS, THERE WAS A LITTLE NIBBLE FROM A COUPLE OF SENIOR PEOPLE IN LABOUR. CAN THEY WORK WITH ANYONE, AND ARE THEY GONNA BE LABOUR'S PLAN B? IS THE MAORI PARTY GONNA BE LABOUR'S PLAN B? WELL, WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT, THIS IS WHAT MMP IS ALL ABOUT. YEAH. THEY MIGHT HAVE TO BE, WHETHER EITHER SIDE LIKES IT OR NOT, IF THE STATE OR POSITION OF THE MAORI PARTY IS TO BE THERE AT THE TABLE TO TRY AND REPRESENT THE PARTY. BUT HAS LABOUR DONE ENOUGH GROUNDWORK TO ENSURE` WELL, NOT LATELY. NO, NOT LATELY. IF LABOUR'S PLAN IS TO SAY WE WANNA GET THERE ON OUR OWN LEGS AND WITH OUR OWN MAORI MPS AND OUR OWN SUPPORT, THAT'S FINE. BUT IF THE NUMBERS DON'T STACK UP LATE SEPTEMBER, THEN YOU HAVE TO TALK WITH WHO ELSE IS IN THE BARN WITH YOU TO SEE WHETHER YOU CAN GET TO THAT TABLE. HAVE THE MAORI PARTY GOT ENOUGH OUT OF NATIONAL? I THINK THEY'VE GOT A LOT OUT OF NATIONAL. AGAIN, I HAVE TO AGREE WITH MARAMA. FOR TWO PEOPLE, THEY'VE EXERTED A LOT OF INFLUENCE. I MEAN, SOME OF US AREN'T THAT HAPPY ABOUT IT, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVEN'T ACTUALLY DONE IT. I ALMOST THINK - I MEAN, THE NATIONAL PARTY'S ALMOST BEEN CAPTURED BY THE MAORI AGENDA` THE MAORI PARTY AGENDA. I THINK IT'S ASTONISHING WHAT THEY'VE ACHIEVED. WELL, SOME OF THAT` I MEAN, SOME OF THAT IS THE POLITICS ARE QUITE SIMILAR. I MEAN, BILL ENGLISH, RIGHT BACK FROM WHEN HE WAS FIRST MINISTER OF HEALTH, HE AND TARIANA GOT ALONG VERY VERY WELL BECAUSE HE AGREED WITH, YOU KNOW, DEVOLUTION OF SERVICES OUT TO REGIONS, AWAY FROM WELLINGTON, PEOPLE LOOKING AFTER THEMSELVES, AND THAT'S VERY MUCH WHAT TARIANA WAS PUSHING. WE` I MEAN, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR ACT ANY MORE, BUT PEOPLE OF OUR IDEOLOGICAL ILK, LET'S SAY, CAN GO ALONG WITH THAT TOO. I MEAN, THERE IS SOME GENUINE COMMON GROUND BETWEEN THE MAORI PARTY AND SOME PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT. ACT, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS ALWAYS VERY KEEN ON PROPERTY RIGHTS AND WAS THE ONLY PARTY THAT VOTED AGAINST THE FORESHORE AND SEABED ACT. SO, UH, YOU CAN GET` YOU` UH... THE GREEN PARTY... (LAUGHS) OH, DID YOU? OH, OK. ...WAS STRONGLY OPPOSED. (LAUGHS) OK, WELL, OK. I'LL TAKE THAT BACK. ANYWAY, WE DIDN'T SIDE WITH LABOUR AND NATIONAL ON THIS. SO I THINK THAT THEY'VE DONE REALLY WELL, AND I THINK THEY'LL BE IN GOVERNMENT NEXT TIME. I THINK THEY WILL. THE ONLY WAY I CAN SEE THEM NOT BEING IS IF, MIRACULOUSLY, SOMEBODY COULD FORM A GOVERNMENT WITHOUT THEM. THEY WILL` I THINK THEY WILL GO EITHER WAY. IF SOMEBODY DIDN'T WANT THEM AND COULD FORM A GOVERNMENT WITHOUT THEM, THAT'S HOW THEY WON'T BE. BUT I THINK THAT'S UNLIKELY, AND I EXPECT THEM TO BE IN GOVERNMENT NEXT TIME. WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, BUT I JUST WANNA ASK YOU ALL WHETHER YOU THINK NEW ZEALAND IS PILING IN BEHIND MILITARY SUPPORT IN SYRIA WITH DONALD TRUMP AND THE AIRSTRIKES. HAVE WE KIND OF SAID, UM, WE APPROVE OF THIS TOO SOON? YES. (LAUGHS) I THINK IT'S DANGEROUS THAT WE SHOWED EVEN AS MUCH ENTHUSIASM AS THE PRIME MINISTER ALREADY HAS. THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS TIME IN THE WORLD. THE TWO KEY LEADERS INVOLVED, TRUMP AND PUTIN, ARE HIGHLY ERRATIC AND HIGHLY POWER-HUNGRY. TRUMP IS ALWAYS FOLLOWING A FASCIST PLAYBOOK, COMING FROM STEVE BANNON, HIS KEY ADVISER, AND WAR IS TOP OF THE AGENDA, SO TAKING THIS STEP IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, AND I THINK THIS COUNTRY WOULD BE VERY ADVISED TO BE CAUTIOUS. CHRIS? IT'S BIZARRE, ALMOST PERVERSE, THAT WE HAVE THIS GLOBAL AGREEMENT AND SUPPORT THAT PERHAPS TRUMP HAS DONE RIGHT THING. BUT WHETHER HE'S DONE IT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS, NO ONE YET KNOWS. JAMIE? I'M NOT SURE HE HAS DONE THE RIGHT THING, BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON THERE. I MEAN, ONE OF THE REASONS WE DON'T WANNA LEAP IN ISN'T` I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD BE ON THE` GENERALLY, WE SHOULD BE ON THE SIDE OF THE AMERICANS. WE'RE ON THAT TEAM, SO TO SPEAK. BUT I DON'T THINK ANYBODY REALLY UNDERSTANDS WHAT'S GOING ON THERE AND WHAT THE SITUATION REALLY IS AND WHAT EFFECTS THESE ACTIONS ARE GOING TO HAVE. AND THERE'S NO REASON, AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, FOR US TO BE GUNG-HO ABOUT IT. ALL RIGHT, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE FOR THE MOMENT. AFTER THE BREAK, WE FIND OUT WHAT MIGHT BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. WELCOME BACK. YOU'RE WITH 'THE NATION' AND OUR PANEL. WELL, THIS WEEK THE PRIVACY COMMISSIONER PUT OUT A RATHER SCATHING REPORT IN RELATION TO DATA COLLECTION, SUE, AND THIS IS KIND OF AROUND THE GOVERNMENT'S SOCIAL INVESTMENT PROGRAMME ` COLLECTING INFORMATION ABOUT PEOPLE. UM, JOHN EDWARDS WAS CONCERNED ABOUT A POSSIBLE BREACH OF THE SYSTEM AND WHETHER PEOPLE COULD HAVE CONFIDENCE IN IT, AND THERE WAS NO RISK ASSESSMENT OR PRIVACY ASSESSMENT DONE BEFORE INTRODUCING THE POLICY. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? UM, I'VE READ THE REPORT, AND THE PRIVACY COMMISSIONER'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THIS PROPOSITION IS DANGEROUS IN SO MANY WAYS, AND THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD TAKE THE REPORT SERIOUSLY AND WITHDRAW IMMEDIATELY FROM ITS GRAB OF PEOPLE'S PERSONAL, CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION FORM MANY, MANY COMMUNITY GROUPS WORKING WITH THE MOST DISPOSSESSED AND VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY IN ALL SORTS OF SITUATIONS. THAT MATERIAL WILL NO LONGER BE CONFIDENTIAL. IT WILL BE IN THE BOWELS OF THE STATE AND USED AS PART OF BIG DATA. AND IT'S LIKE THE STATE BECOMING CLOSER AND CLOSER INTO THE DETAILS OF PEOPLE'S LIVES WHERE THEY'RE IN SUCH DREADFUL SITUATIONS. AND THE EVIL OF IT IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS SAYING TO THESE GROUPS THAT ARE DOING SUCH GOOD WORK USUALLY THAT, 'WE WILL ONLY FUND YOU FOR THESE PROGRAMMES IF YOU WILL ALLOW US TO GRAB ALL THIS DATA. 'WE WILL MAKE YOU TAKE THIS FROM THE VICTIMS OF RAPE, 'FROM YOUNG PEOPLE IN DREADFUL CIRCUMSTANCES IN THEIR FAMILIES. 'WHATEVER THE SITUATION IS. PEOPLE GOING TO BUDGETING SERVICES`' SUE, I'M INTERESTED, WHAT CONCERNS YOU THE MOST? THE POTENTIAL THAT THE INFORMATION IS GOING TO GET INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN OR THE FACT THAT THE STATE IS DEMANDING THIS INFORMATION? UM, THE FACT THAT THE STATE'S DEMANDING THE INFORMATION AND MAKING IT CONDITIONAL. GROUPS CANNOT GET FUNDING WITHOUT IT. AND I JUST WISH, UM, AND I'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS FOR MONTHS NOW, THAT THE COMMUNITY SECTOR HAD HAD THE WILL AND THE STRENGTH TO SAY NO RIGHT FROM THE START. WE WILL DEFEND THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE WE WORK WITH FOR PRIVACY AND TO HAVING ALL THESE INCREDIBLE DETAILS LINKED THROUGH TO OTHER PARTS OF THE STATE. LET'S BRING JAMIE IN. JAMIE, I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THIS, COS IT'S A COLLECTION OF DATA, BUT IS IT REASONABLE TO EXPECT YOU TO GIVE UP THE DATA IN ORDER TO GET THE FUNDING? UH... IF YOU WANT THE PROGRAMMES AND THE MONEY... YES, WELL, THAT'S THE ARGUMENT THE GOVERNMENT'S MAKING, AND YOU CAN SEE A CERTAIN LOGIC IN IT. THEY'RE SAYING, 'WE'RE EFFECTIVELY MAKING YOU... 'YOU WERE ORIGINALLY PRIVATE ORGANISATIONS. YOU'RE TAKING GOVERNMENT MONEY NOW. 'YOU'VE EFFECTIVELY BECOME AN ARM OF THE GOVERNMENT'S SOCIAL POLICY. 'YOU'RE DOING THE GOVERNMENT'S WORK FOR IT, SO TO SPEAK.' AND THEY... IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A PATERNALISTIC STATE THAT'S TRYING TO` THAT THINKS IT'S ITS JOB TO KIND OF RAISE THE POPULATION, MAKE THEM BETTER OFF IN VARIOUS WAYS AND CONDUCT THEIR AFFAIRS FOR THEM, THEY NATURALLY WANT INFORMATION ABOUT YOU. I THINK` BUT I'M WITH SUE ENTIRELY. I MEAN, I FIND IT OBJECTIONABLE. (CHUCKLES) BUT I THINK THE ANSWER IS THAT THESE ORGANISATIONS HAVE TO REJECT THE STATE'S MONEY, RAISE IT PRIVATELY. THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME THING HAPPENING IN THE UK. IS THAT REALISTIC TO FOREGO THE STATE FUNDING AND SAY YOU'RE GONNA GET IT FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR? YOU'RE KIND OF THE MIDDLE MAN IN THIS. I DON'T KNOW` I DON'T KNOW WHERE IN CORPORATE NEW ZEALAND THERE WOULD BE ENOUGH INVESTMENT FOR THOSE SORTS OF SOCIAL SERVICES THAT NEED THE MONEY. IT'S NOT CORPORATE. IT'S CHARITY. I THINK THERE IS SOME NEED AND SOME VALUE IN THERE BEING SHARING OF DATA OR INFORMATION WHERE IT IS FOR THE BENEFIT OF PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE AT RISK OF FALLING THROUGH THE CRACKS. I KNOW PEOPLE WHO WENT TO 19 SCHOOLS. THEY ARE SO TRANSIENT, THEY'RE SO LOST, THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES ARE SO BAD. THERE NEEDS TO BE A WAY TO STOP THEM FROM FALLING THROUGH THE CRACKS. BY THE SAME TOKEN, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE THE MOST VULNERABLE AND NOT ABLE TO LOOK AFTER THEMSELVES AND PROTECT THEIR OWN` I CAN SEE OUT OF THE CORNER OF MY EYE SUE RARING UP. ONE OF THE MAIN OBJECTIONS THE PRIVACY COMMISSIONER RAISED ABOUT THIS WAS, IN FACT, IF PEOPLE ARE FRIGHTENED ` THE SORT OF PEOPLE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TEND TO BE THE MOST FRIGHTENED ` ABOUT HAVING THEIR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION RELEASED THROUGHOUT THE STATE, AVAILABLE TO THE STATE, AND THEY'LL BECOME TOO SCARED TO GO TO THE BUDGETING SERVICE OR THE FAMILY VIOLENCE CENTRE OR WHATEVER IF THEY THINK` THESE ARE THE VERY PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP MOST ` WILL BE THE MOST FRIGHTENED BECAUSE THEY COME FROM A MAYBE CRIMINAL, ADDICTIVE, FRACTURED BACKGROUND, MAYBE THERE'S VIOLENCE IN THE HOME, ALL SORTS OF THINGS. AND PEOPLE` I KNOW THIS FROM WORKING WITH PEOPLE AT THE INTERFACE WITH WORK & INCOME, PEOPLE ARE VERY, VERY FRIGHTENED BY THE POWER OF THE STATE. IF THE STATE THEN HAS EVEN MORE CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION ABOUT CRIME, SEXUAL ABUSE, DRUGS, WHATEVER'S HAPPENING IN THAT HOUSEHOLD OR IN YOUR LIFE, YOUR FEAR BECOMES EVEN GREATER, AND SO EVEN MORE PEOPLE WILL MISS OUT ON GETTING THE HELP THEY NEED IF SOMETHING LIKE THIS DREADFUL INVASION OF PRIVACY GOES AHEAD. ALL RIGHT, WE'LL LEAVE YOU WITH THE LAST WORD ON THAT ONE. I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT LIGHTER BEFORE WE GO. PIZZA ` PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA AND SPAGHETTI. BILL ENGLISH POSTED SOME SHOTS OF HIM MAKING LUNCH FOR THE FAMILY, AND IT'S CAUSED A STIR. DO WE THINK IT WAS JUST BILL ENGLISH POSTING SOME SHOTS OF HIS DINNER, OR IS THERE MORE TO IT? YOU'RE THE PR GUY. IS IT A PR MOVE? PROBABLY. (LAUGHS) I MEAN, IF HE'S GOING TO FOLLOW THE GUY WHO WAS BEFORE HIM, HE DID THIS VERY, VERY WELL. AND I THINK, ACTUALLY, SHOWING A BIT MORE OF THE PERSON SIDE OF YOU, A BIT MORE OF THE FAMILY SIDE OF YOU, YOU WANT TO BE THE PRIME MINISTER, YOU` IF YOU'RE GONNA` YOU GOTTA WALK YOUR TALK IN THAT REGARD. BUT DON'T PUT PINEAPPLE ON PIZZA. SMART MOVE OR ALIENATING MOST OF THE POPULATION, JAMIE WHYTE? WHAT DO YOU RECKON? NO, IT'S A GOOD MOVE, BECAUSE I REMEMBER... GOD, WHAT'S HIS NAME? PAUL HENRY CALLING ME A SNOB ON TV ONCE. HE SAYS, 'YOU'RE SUCH A SNOB.' AND IF ONLY I'D HAD SPAGHETTI ON PIZZA, THE POPULATION MIGHT'VE LIKED ME A BIT MORE AND I MIGHT'VE GOT A FEW MORE VOTES. WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE. TIME NOW TO LOOK AT SOME OF WHAT COULD BE MAKING THE NEWS NEXT WEEK. LABOUR'S MONETARY POLICY IS RELEASED TOMORROW. THE JURY IN THE ANDREW LITTLE DEFAMATION CASE RESUME DELIBERATIONS TOMORROW TOO. AND THE GOVERNMENT LAUNCHES ITS CYBER-SECURITY UNIT ON WEDNESDAY. IT AIMS TO CURB CYBER ATTACKS ON BUSINESSES. WELL, THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. WE'RE TAKING A BREAK FOR EASTER, AND WE HOPE YOU'RE GOING TO BE GETTING A BIT OF A BREAK TOO. BUT WE'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE IN A FORTNIGHT'S TIME. THANKS FOR JOINING US. CAPTIONS BY ALANA DRAYTON, DESNEY SHAW AND MADISON BATTEN. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR.