1 MORENA. GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED. THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL'S DAMNING REPORT INTO THE TREATMENT OF OUR MAORI IN OUR PRISON SYSTEM ` MAORI ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO REOFFEND, AND THE TRIBUNAL SAYS THE CROWN ISN'T DOING ENOUGH. JESSICA MUTCH WILL BE SPEAKING TO MAORI LAWYER MOANA JACKSON IN WELLINGTON, AS WELL AS LABOUR'S CORRECTION SPOKESPERSON KELVIN DAVIS. AND FORMER LABOUR LEADER DAVID CUNLIFFE,... YES, I REALLY AM GOING. (LAUGHTER) ...HE RETIRED FROM PARLIAMENT THIS WEEK. JESSICA MUTCH WILL TALK TO HIM ABOUT THE HIGHS AND LOWS OF HIS 18 YEARS IN POLITICS. THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T WANT AN INQUIRY INTO OUR MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM. TODAY KATIE BRADFORD MEETS THE GROUP THAT WENT AHEAD AND DID ONE ANYWAY. SO WE'VE NOW GOT SOME PRETTY ENTRENCHED SYSTEMIC ISSUES, YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE NATION. THEN, FOR THE FIRST TIME, A COMPLETE HISTORY OF NEW ZEALAND'S PRIME MINISTERS. AUTHOR AND FORMER MINISTER MICHAEL BASSETT PROFILES OUR PARLIAMENTARY LEADERS, FROM DICK SEDDON TO JOHN KEY, AND ASKS WHO WAS THE BEST OF THE BUNCH. WOMAN: PRIME MINISTER. CAN WE HAVE A BRIEF WORD? WOMBAT. CAPTIONS WERE MADE POSSIBLE WITH FUNDING FROM NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017 AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL ` MIKE WILLIAMS, FORMER LABOUR PARTY PRESIDENT, NOW CEO OF THE HOWARD LEAGUE FOR PENAL REFORM, FRAN O'SULLIVAN, HEAD OF BUSINESS FOR NZME, AND ANTON BLANK, A CHILD ADVOCATE AND CO-AUTHOR OF THE REPORT 'UNCONSCIOUS BIAS'. WELL, A VAST DIFFERENCE IN PRISON RATES BETWEEN MAORI AND NON-MAORI IS UNDISPUTED. SO TO THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REOFFENDING RATES. THIS WEEK, THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL RULED THE CROWN HAS BREACHED ITS TREATY OBLIGATIONS BY FAILING TO CLOSE THAT GAP. FIVE YEARS AFTER LEAVING PRISON, 80.9% OF MAORI ARE RECONVICTED. FOR NON-MAORI, THAT FIGURE IS JUST 49.5%. IT'S A MASSIVE DIFFERENCE, AND WITH AN ESTIMATED 10,000 MAORI CHILDREN WITH A PARENT IN JAIL, IT'S DEVASTATING FOR THE MAORI COMMUNITY ` IN FACT, ALL OUR COMMUNITIES. IN THE WORDS OF THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL... THE CORRECTIONS DEPARTMENT HAS ACCEPTED THE REPORT BUT SAYS IT ALREADY HAS A NEW STRATEGY AND FUNDING AIMED AT REDUCING MAORI REOFFENDING. CORRECTIONS MINISTER LOUISE UPSTON WAS UNAVAILABLE FOR AN INTERVIEW TODAY, BUT JESS IS STANDING BY WITH MAORI LAWYER MOANA JACKSON. THANKS VERY MUCH, GREG. YES, I'M JOINED BY MOANA JACKSON. HE'S A WELLINGTON-BASED LAWYER WHO'S RESEARCH FORMED THE BASIS OF THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL'S REPORT. HE'S NGATI KAHUNGUNU AND NGATI POROU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US. I WANTED TO START OFF BY ASKING YOU ` WE'VE HAD REPORT AFTER REPORT AFTER REPORT ON THIS ISSUE. WILL THIS ONE ACTUALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE? WELL, I WOND` I WONDER IF I COULD BEGIN FIRST, JESSICA, BY JUST ACKNOWLEDGING TOM HEMOPO, WHO` WHO TOOK THE CLAIM. TOM WAS A SENIOR PROBATION OFFICER FOR MANY YEARS AND WAS WELL AWARE THAT THE ISSUES HE WAS RAISING WERE NOT NEW. AND AS YOU RIGHTLY SAID, THERE HAD BEEN A NUMBER OF REPORTS, AND NO MEANINGFUL ACTION HAS BEEN TAKEN. SO, ALTHOUGH THE CORRECTIONS DEPARTMENT SAY THEY HAVE ACCEPTED THE REPORT, I'M SOMEWHAT SCEPTICAL AS TO WHETHER THEY'LL ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'VE SAID BEFORE IS THAT THE SYSTEM IS RACIST. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT AND PERHAPS GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES? WELL, IN ANY SYSTEM IN WHICH A LARGE NUMBER OF RACIALLY DISTINCT, IF YOU LIKE, PEOPLE, UM, MAKE UP A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER, UM, IS INHERENTLY RACIALLY BIASED, OR, AS ANTON USES THE PHRASE, SUFFERS FROM UNCONSCIOUS BIAS. UM, AND THAT` THAT IS A FACT THAT HAS BEEN PRESENT IN THE NEW ZEALAND PRISON SYSTEM EVER SINCE IT WAS ESTABLISHED, BECAUSE THE PRISONS WERE ORIGINALLY ESTABLISHED AS PART OF THE COLONISING PROCESS, WHICH WAS BY ITS VERY NATURE RACE-BASED. IT` IT SOUGHT TO DISPOSSESS PEOPLE WHO WERE RACIALLY DIFFERENT AND WERE REGARDED BY THE COLONISERS AS RACIALLY INFERIOR. AND IT DOES GET TIRESOME SOMETIMES, I THINK, THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT PREPARED TO DISCUSS THAT ISSUE. UM, CRIMINOLOGISTS AND OTHERS, FOR EXAMPLE, SAY THAT, UM, THE HIGH RATE OF MAORI CRIMINAL OFFENDING IS LARGELY A SOCIO-ECONOMIC ISSUE. UM, BUT THAT IGNORES THE FACT THAT MAORI ARE NOT BORN GENETICALLY POOR, THEY'RE NOT BORN SOCIO-ECONOMICALLY DEPRIVED, AND THAT RATHER THERE IS A CAUSE WHICH LEADS TO THE ECONOMIC DISPARITIES, AND THAT CAUSES THE RACE-BASED NATURE OF COLONISATION. DO YOU THINK WE'RE RELUCTANT TO TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE AS NEW ZEALANDERS WE DON'T LIKE TO THINK OF OURSELVES AS RACIST? BUT DO YOU THINK THAT WE ARE? WELL, WE` WE LIVE WITHIN A SOCIETY WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED AS, AS I SAID, ON THE RACE-BASED PROCESS OF COLONISATION, WHERE PEOPLE FROM EUROPE ASSUMED THEY HAD A RIGHT TO DISPOSSESS THOSE WHO MAY CLASS AS 'RACIALLY INFERIOR'. COLONISATION, BY ITS NATURE, IS RACIST. AND THE SYSTEMS WHICH THEN IT IMPOSES ARE NECESSARY RACIST AS WELL. THAT DOES NOT MEAN INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE NECESSARILY RACIST, BUT THE SYSTEM WITHIN WHICH, SAY, THE JUSTICE PROCESS OPERATES IS INHERENTLY RACIST, AND UNTIL WE'RE WILLING TO DISCUSS THAT HONESTLY, THEN I BELIEVE MEANINGFUL CHANGE CANNOT OCCUR. CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THAT HAPPENS? WELL, THE POLICE'S OWN RESEARCH, FOR EXAMPLE, ACKNOWLEDGES THAT THE POWER OF DISCRETION WHICH IT HAS, WHETHER TO ARREST OR WHAT CHARGES TO LAY, UM, OFTEN RESULT FROM BIAS ` WHAT THEY CALL 'UNCONSCIOUS BIAS', UM, WHERE THE PRESUMPTIONS ABOUT THE RACIAL BACKGROUND OF AN ALLEGED OFFENDER INFLUENCE THEIR DECISION MAKING. THEY MAKE JUDGEMENTS BASED ON WHETHER THAT PERSON IS PERCEIVED TO BE MAORI, AND THERE ARE INSTANCES OF PEOPLE BEING ARRESTED, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO ARE MAORI WHO ARE CHARGED WITH DIFFERENT OFFENCES FOR SIMILAR ACTIVITIES TO WHAT A PAKEHA WOULD BE CHARGED WITH. AND THE EVIDENCE OF THAT, LIKE THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF MAORI IN PRISON, IS LONG-STANDING AND WELL-KNOWN. BUT SOME PEOPLE WATCHING THIS AT HOME WILL THINK, 'IF YOU DO THE CRIME, YOU SHOULD BE ARRESTED AND PERHAPS END UP IN JAIL.' WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT? WELL, NO ONE WOULD ARGUE WITH THE IDEA THAT IF YOU DO WRONG, THEN THERE SHOULD BE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE WRONG. BUT THE ISSUE IS ` WHO DECIDES WHAT THE WRONG IS? AND WHAT CRIME OR ACTION SHOULD THEN BE TAKEN? AND IT IS THAT POINT, AT THE EXERCISE OF THE DISCRETION, THAT THE RACE-BASED NATURE OF THE PROCESS COMES INTO PLAY. YOU TALKED ABOUT MAORI NOT BEING BORN POOR AND INTO SOCIO-ECONOMIC, UM, SITUATIONS. SOME PEOPLE ON TALK BACK MIGHT SAY, 'MAORI ARE INTRINSICALLY MORE LIKELY TO BE CRIMINALS, 'BECAUSE THEY ARE OVER-REPRESENTED IN THE PRISON STATS.' WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT IDEA? WELL, WITH RESPECT, THAT IS A FUNDAMENTALLY IGNORANT AND RACIST PRESUMPTION. NO ONE IS BORN GENETICALLY CRIMINAL, JUST AS NO ONE IS BORN GENETICALLY POOR. UM, THERE ARE HISTORIC AND SOCIAL, CULTURAL, ECONOMIC FACTORS WHICH DRIVE WRONGDOING, AND TO ASSUME THAT MAORI ARE THERE BECAUSE WE ARE SOMEHOW GENETICALLY PRONE TO COMMIT CRIME IS SIMPLY AN UNACCEPTABLE STATEMENT. YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING SCEPTICAL, EARLIER ON, THAT THIS WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE. CORRECTIONS HAVE COME OUT AND SAID, 'LOOK, WE ARE DOING THINGS. WE HAVE GOT NEW TARGETS. WE'VE GOT FUNDING GOING INTO IT.' WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEIR RESPONSE ON THIS REPORT? WELL, ABOUT THE ONLY THING I AGREE WITH CORRECTIONS ON IS THEIR STATEMENT DURING THE HEARING THAT THEY ARE SIMPLY ONE PART OF THAT CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. AND THEY ALONE CANNOT RESOLVE THE ISSUE. I` I THINK ALSO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM ITSELF IS PART OF THE WIDER SOCIETY, AND SOCIETY NEEDS TO HAVE SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE DISPROPORTIONATE TREATMENT OF MAORI WITHIN SYSTEM. I THINK SOCIETY ALSO NEEDS TO HAVE MUCH WIDER DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE EFFICACY OF PRISONS AS AN INSTITUTION. UM, MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ARE ACTUALLY NOW CLOSING PRISONS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY DON'T WORK. THEY DON'T WORK FOR MAORI OR FOR PAKEHA OR ANYONE ELSE. WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THAT HAPPEN? DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S A VIABLE OPTION? I` I THINK IT IS, AND I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT DECARCERATION. UM, MANY CULTURES DEAL WITH WRONGDOING IN WAYS WHICH ARE QUITE DIFFERENT TO IMPRISONMENT. IN 1988, UH, JUSTICE ROPER WROTE, I THINK, A VERY IMPORTANT REPORT ON PRISONS, IN WHICH HE STATED 'PRISONS DON'T WORK, AND THERE NEEDS TO BE A MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION.' AND IT'S REALLY SAD THAT OVER 30 YEARS LATER, NEARLY, THAT REPORT HAS NOT BEEN TAKEN NOTICE OF. ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOUR OPINION ON IS LAST YEAR, THE GOVERNMENT SAID ANYONE WITH GANG AFFILIATES CAN'T GO INTO THE PRISONS TO HELP AND TO WORK WITH CORRECTIONS. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE IDEA THE MAORI PARTY PUT UP THIS WEEK SAYING 'WE WANT TO SEE GANG AFFILIATES BACK WORKING IN THE PRISONS TO TRY AND HELP THESE PRISONERS REHABILITATE.' WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT? WELL, YOU BRING IN PEOPLE TO WORK IN AN AREA WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE, WHO HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE STRESSES AND PRESSURES, AND` AND I THINK THE GOVERNMENT RESPONSE IN BANNING GANG MEMBERS WAS UNNECESSARY. I THINK IT WAS A KNEE-JERK REACTION TO A PERCEIVED PROBLEM. UM, BUT ALL OF THOSE THINGS IN THE END, IN MY VIEW, ARE JUST BAND-AIDS. UM, THEY WILL NOT FIX THE SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS WHICH PRISONS THEMSELVES RAISE. THEY WILL NOT FIX THE SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS WITHIN THE WHOLE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. AND THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THIS COUNTRY BE BRAVE AND IMAGINATIVE TO DO WHAT JUSTICE ROPER SUGGESTED IN 1988, AND WHICH MANY MAORI PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SUGGESTING FOR EVEN LONGER. WELL, LOOK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOU THOUGHTS ON THAT AND YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT. KIA ORA. THANK YOU, JESS. AFTER THE BREAK ON Q+A, WE'RE STAYING WITH PRISONS AND OUR HIGH RATE OF RECIDIVISM AMONG MAORI. LABOUR'S KELVIN DAVIS IS UP NEXT. 1 WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED BY KELVIN DAVIS, LABOUR'S CORRECTION SPOKESPERSON. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US. I WANT TO START OFF BY GETTING YOUR REACTION FROM THAT INTERVIEW WITH MOANA JACKSON. HE SAID OUR SYSTEM IS RACIST. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? YEAH, I AGREE. UH, THERE'S A NUMBER OF ASPECTS THAT MAKE IT RACIST. UH, FIRST OF ALL, THERE'S PEOPLE'S ATTITUDES WITHIN THE PRISON SYSTEM. I'VE RECEIVED A LETTER FROM A PRISONER JUST YESTERDAY, SAYING THAT, UH, HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO WEAR HIS TAONGA, BUT CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, SIKHS ARE ALLOWED TO WEAR THEIR RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS. AND THAT'S JUST A REAL SMALL, UH, EXAMPLE OF HOW FROM A PRISONERS POINT OF VIEW, THE SYSTEM IS RACIST ` BIASED AGAINST THEM. HOW SHOULD MAORI PRISONERS BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY? WHAT WOULD HELP WITH REHABILITATION? WELL, CULTURALLY THE, UH` THE PRISONS ARE, UM, A PAKEHA SYSTEM. UH, THERE'S 18 PRISONS, BUT HALF THE PEOPLE IN PRISON ARE MAORI, AND YET THERE'S NO MAORI PRISON. THERE'S NO PRISON THAT ACTUALLY MEETS THEIR CULTURAL, SPIRITUAL NEEDS. WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE? YOU'D HAVE TO GO TO THE MAORI COMMUNITY AND SAY, 'IF WE WERE TO DEVELOP A PRISON THAT WAS TO CATER FOR THE NEEDS FOR MAORI, WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE?' UM, BUT THE BIG THING IS THAT THE REPORT CAME OUT AND SAID THAT THERE'S, UH, MAORI, UH... THERE'S NO PRIORITY. IT'S NOT A PRIORITY. THERE'S NO, UM, TARGETS. THERE'S NO PLAN. THERE'S NO BUDGET. SO, OF COURSE, THERE'S NO, UM... THAT'S WHY WE'RE NOT SEEING ANY RESULTS. IT'S NOT WONDER THAT MAORI REOFFENDING IS OCCURRING TO THE EXTENT IT IS. WOULD SEPARATE PRISON SYSTEMS WORK? OH, I` WHAT WE'VE GOT NOW IS A SEPARATE SYSTEM. THERE'S MAORI THAT MAKE UP HALF THE PRISON POPULATION, BUT THERE'S A SYSTEM THAT IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THEIR CULTURAL BASE AND BELIEFS AND` SO HAVE TWO PHYSICAL SEPARATE JAIL SYSTEMS? IS THAT`? WELL, I BELIEVE THAT, UH, THE MAORI CULTURAL WAYS WOULD ACTUALLY WORK FOR NON-MAORI AS WELL. AND I'M SURE THAT IF, UH, THEY WERE TO, UH, HAVE NON-MAORI IN THOSE KAUPAPA MAORI PRISONS ` FOR WANT OF A BETTER PHRASE ` THAT IT WOULD BE EFFECTIVE FOR THEM AS WELL. BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAORI VALUES SUCH AS MANAAKITANGA, UM, AROHA, WHANAUNGATANGA. YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE BEST WAYS OF ` AND CORRECTIONS SAYS IT THEMSELVES ` ONE OF THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAYS IS BY HAVING WHANAU ENGAGEMENT IN THE REHABILITATION. AND YET, CORRECTIONS MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR WHANAU TO BE ENGAGED IN REHABILITATION, BOTH PRE-RELEASE AND POST-RELEASE. THEY PUT SOME REAL BARRIERS IN THE WAY FOR PRISONERS TO REHABILITATE WITH THEIR FAMILIES. THE OTHER THING THAT MOANA JACKSON BROUGHT UP WAS TRYING TO STOP MAORI GOING INTO PRISON IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE IT'S THE SYSTEM` IT'S THAT ENVIRONMENT THAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO REINTEGRATE INTO SOCIETY. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. SO, WE NEED TO DECIDE WHO ARE THE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO BE LOCKED UP FOR THE SAFETY OF THE COMMUNITY, AND THEY'LL BE A SMALL SUBSET, AND THEN WE HAVE TO SAY, 'WELL, HOW DO WE STOP OTHER PEOPLE 'GETTING INTO THE PRISON AND THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?' AND YOU'LL FIND THAT MANY, MANY PEOPLE ARE EITHER ILLITERATE, AND WE DON'T DO ANYTHING TO ADDRESS THEIR ILLITERACY, UH, AND ALSO A TRAFFIC OFFENCE IS ONE OF THEIR FIRST STEPS INTO THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. UH, THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE A LICENCE, SO WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO TO HELP THEM GET THE LICENCE SO THAT THEY DON'T ACTUALLY GO INTO THE PRISON? BECAUSE ONCE THEY STEP FOOT IN PRISON, IT'S A DOWNWARD SPIRAL FROM THERE. THEY'RE SUBJECT TO GANGS AND EXPOSED TO GANGS. AND IF YOU'RE NOT A GANG MEMBER BEFORE YOU GO INTO PRISON, CHANCES ARE YOU WILL BE WITHIN 10 MINUTES OF GETTING THERE BECAUSE YOU NEED THE PROTECTION OF A GANG. AND IT'S NOT A SIMPLE CAUSE OF JUST WHEN YOU'RE RELEASED RESIGNING; HANDING IN YOUR NOTICE RESIGNING FROM THE GANG BECAUSE YOU'RE THEN` YOU'VE GOTTA REPAIR THEIR... YOU OWE THEM. YOU OWE THEM. SO YOU GO OUT INTO SOCIETY AND YOU HAVE TO COMMIT MORE CRIME, WHICH LEADS YOU BACK INTO PRISON. IT'S JUST THAT HORRIBLE CYCLE. SO IF YOU'RE CORRECTIONS MINISTER AT THE END OF THE YEAR UNDER LABOUR, WOULD LABOUR LIKE TO SEE FEWER PEOPLE IN PRISONS? WOULD THAT BE THE AIM? SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TO HAVE A 15 YEAR TARGET TO REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATION BY, SAY, 30%. AND IT NEEDS TO BE BIPARTISAN. UH, WE NEED TO SIT DOWN AND SAY, WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO, REGARDLESS OF WHO'S IN GOVERNMENT, TO REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATION? UH, SO WE'VE GOT 10,000 PEOPLE IN PRISON NOW. THAT WOULD MEAN WE'D GET DOWN TO 7,000 OVER 15 YEARS. THERE'S 5,000 MAORI. THEY MEANS WE'D HAVE 3,500 MAORI IN PRISON, WHICH IS A START. SO WHAT'S THE FIRST THING YOU'D DO IF YOU BECAME THE MINISTER TO TRY AND MAKE THAT HAPPEN? I'D GET ON THE PHONE TO MY NATIONAL AND GREEN AND ACT AND WHOEVER ELSE IS IN PARLIAMENT COUNTERPART AND SAY 'HEY, LET'S SIT DOWN AND 'LET'S WORK OUT A REAL MATURE WAY OF ACTUALLY MAKING THESE REDUCTIONS THAT ARE REALLY NECESSARY.' BECAUSE THE MORE PEOPLE WE THROW IN PRISON, THEN THE MORE PEOPLE, AT SOME STAGE, HAVE TO COME OUR OF PRISON, AND IF WE THROW THEM IN THERE AND WE MISTREAT THEM AND WE THINK THAT BY MAKING CONDITIONS REALLY HARSH IN THERE THAT THEY'RE GONNA COME OUT BETTER PEOPLE, WELL, THEN, WE'RE MISTAKEN. DO YOU THINK THAT THIS REPORT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE? UH, I'D LIKE TO THINK IT DOES. WE` WE KNOW THEY'VE BEEN OTHER REPORTS WRITTEN IN THE 80S THAT... DO YOU THINK IT WILL, THOUGH? ...HAVE BEEN IGNORED, AND, UH, WITH THIS GOVERNMENT I'M SURE THAT THEY'LL PROBABLY IGNORE IT. I CERTAINLY HAVE READ THE REPORT, AND I THINK THAT'S A REAL FOUNDATION FOR US TO MOVE FORWARD. WELL, LOOK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME; REALLY APPRECIATE YOU COMING IN. THANK YOU. THANK YOU, JESS. TIME NOW TO BRING IN OUR PANEL. I WANT ALL OF YOU ON THIS. YOUR FIRST IMPRESSION OF THE REPORT, MIKE. IS IT ANY USE? I DON'T` IT IS A VERY THOROUGH REPORT, AND I READ IT FROM START TO FINISH. THE RECOMMENDATIONS, TO ME, ARE POLITICALLY CORRECT PIFFLE. THEY SAY THEY WANT` FOR EXAMPLE, UM,... 'BEEF UP THE MAORI ADVISORY BOARD. A WRITTEN STRATEGY' ` THERE'S ALREADY ONE THERE. 'MEASURABLE TARGETS' ` THEY'VE ALREADY GOT THAT. 'A DEDICATED BUDGET. TREATY TRAINING FOR SENIOR STAFF, 'AND A MENTION OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI IN THE CORRECTIONS ACT.' I DON'T THINK THAT'S GONNA MAKE A BLIND BIT OF DIFFERENCE. TWO STATISTICS WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF THEY WERE TAKEN ABOARD. NUMBER ONE ` BETWEEN TWO-THIRDS AND THREE-QUARTERS OF MAORI PRISONERS ARE FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE. IF YOU TEACH THEM TO READ AND WRITE, THEY'VE GOT A FAR BETTER CHANCE OF GETTING A JOB WHEN THEY GET OUT OF JAIL, AND THAT REALLY DOES IMPACT REOFFENDING. I KNOW WHAT YOUR SECOND POINT IS. I'M GONNA COME BACK TO THAT, COS I WANT TO EXPLORE THAT A LITTLE BIT LATER. FRAN, YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE REPORT? UM, I GUESS THE THING WITH THAT I FIND INTERESTING IS TO... THERE'S NOT MUCH OF THAT THAT WE PROBABLY HAVEN'T KNOWN AND HAD SAID BEFORE IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. BUT I` I THINK THE INTERESTING THING TO ME IS THE POLICE STRATEGIES THAT HAVE TRIED TO BE IMPLEMENTED ` ONE TO STOP MAORI BEING, UM, BASICALLY ARRESTED AND CHARGED, AND SPECIFIC CHARGES IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND THE UNCONSCIOUS BIAS THAT COMES INTO THE SYSTEM. AND MIKE BUSH, THE CURRENT POLICE COMMISSIONER, HAS BEEN ENDEAVOURING, WITHOUT MUCH SUCCESS, TO ADDRESS THAT. AND I THINK THAT IT REALLY KIND OF STARTS THERE. ONCE YOU GET IN THE SYSTEM, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU GET OUT. BUT IT'S SORT OF, YOU KNOW, TURNING BACK AGAINST UNCONSCIOUS BIAS, IMPLEMENTING THAT TURNING OF THE TIDE STRATEGY THAT POLICE BROUGHT IN IN 2002. AND THAT WAS ENDEAVOURING TO STOP BEING PEOPLE, MAORI IN PARTICULAR, INTO THE SYSTEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. BUT IT'S` THEY'RE NOT GONNA SUCCEED. ANTON, DO YOU SEE ANYTHING IN THIS REPORT THAT'S GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE FROM ALL THE REPORTS WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST? UM, OK. THE REPORT, I THOUGHT, WAS A BIT OF A YAWN FOR ME BECAUSE I FELT THAT IT JUST REGURGITATED STUFF THAT WE'VE KNOWN FOR THREE OR FOUR DECADES. AND THE OTHER ISSUE THAT THEY DON'T ADDRESS IN THE REPORT, AND I DON'T THINK WE ADDRESS WELL WHEN WE'RE DEALING WITH MAORI ISSUES, IS, UM, WORKER BIAS. SO ALL THOSE STATISTICS THAT WE'VE HEARD ARE DISTORTED BY BIAS AT THE COALFACE. BECAUSE MAORI ARE FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE ARRESTED. ONCE THEY GET INTO THE COURT SYSTEM, THEY'RE MORE LIKELY ` FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY ` TO GET CUSTODIAL SENTENCE. SO THAT DISTORTS AND INFLATES THE FIGURES. I CAN JUST HEAR PEOPLE SAYING 'BUT IF THEY DO THE CRIME, THEY SHOULD DO THE TIME.' YEAH. YES, BUT IT'S UNEVEN. AND WE KNOW THAT MAORI, FOR THE SAME OFFENCE AS OTHER GROUPS, ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE THROWN INTO A JAIL CELL. SO WE NEED TO BE LOOKING AT WHAT'S HAPPENING BETWEEN` AT THE COALFACE BETWEEN WORKER AND MAORI OFFENDER. MIKE? GREG, THE POINT THAT KELVIN DAVIS MADE IS REALLY IMPORTANT. 65% OF MAORI PRISONERS BEGIN THEIR` HAD THEIR FIRST SENTENCE WITH A DRIVING OFFENCE. NOW, IF YOU COULD ACTUALLY CHOKE OFF THAT SUPPLY BY MAKING SURE THESE MAORI KIDS GOT LICENCES, BEFORE THEY GET TO JAIL, THEN THEY WOULDN'T GO TO JAIL. THEY WOULDN'T JOIN A GANG. AND THEY WOULDN'T REOFFEND. WHICH OF COURSE HAS TO TIE INTO LITERACY. ABSOLUTELY. PUT THOSE TWO THINGS TOGETHER ` LITERACY AND DRIVERS LICENCE. PUT A BIT OF MONEY INTO THAT, AND YOU WILL CHOKE OFF THAT SUPPLY OF MAORI OFFENDERS. IS IT AN INHERENTLY RACIST SYSTEM, FRAN? THE NUMBERS WOULD SCREAM THAT IT IS. YES, I THINK IT IS. AND I THINK IT COMES INTO THE UNCONSCIOUS BIAS, WHICH POLICE HAVE TO TRY TO ADDRESS, AND AGAIN WITHOUT SUCCESS. I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE BUDGET AND THE TRAINING NEEDS TO GO WITHIN THE POLICE SYSTEM. AND COMMISSIONER BUSH HAS, YOU KNOW, FOR ALL THE BEST REASONS IN THE WORLD, TRIED TO ADDRESS THAT. BUT YOU'RE ALSO UP AGAINST A THREE-YEAR SYSTEM, WHERE EVERY THREE YEARS, YOU GET SOME, YOU KNOW, HONKYS OUT THERE WHO ARE DEMANDING MASSIVE CUSTODIAL SENTENCES, YOU KNOW, IN A WAY, FOR CRIMES THAT REALLY ARE OUT OF ALL PROPORTION TO WHAT THE CRIME IS ON AN INTERNATIONAL BASIS. AND THEN THE POOR OLD FINANCE MINISTER, WHOEVER IT IS, HAS TO KEEP FUNDING ALL THESE NEW PRISONS, WHICH ARE ENORMOUSLY EXPENSIVE. AND I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT WOULD'VE FITTED WITH THE PHILOSOPHY WITH THIS GOVERNMENT AS WELL. AND I REALLY TAKE KELVIN DAVIS' POINT. IS, YOU KNOW, THIS INVESTMENT PHILOSOPHY STOPPING PEOPLE GETTING INTO THE SITUATION IN THE FIRST PLACE? WELL, KELVIN MADE THE POINT IF HE GETS THE GIG AT THE END OF THE YEAR, HE'S QUITE HAPPY TO GET ON THE PHONE, BECAUSE OTHERWISE IT DOES BECOME A DIFFERENT THING EVERY THREE YEARS. YES, AND I THINK THE KNEE-JERK THREE-YEAR, YOU KNOW, CYCLE WHERE IT GETS RAMPED UP POLITICALLY, THAT DOES NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. PLUS ALSO SOMETIMES THE OUT OF PROPORTION RESPONSE TO PARTICULAR SPECTACULAR MURDERS, WHERE SENSIBLE SENTENCING AND VARIOUS OTHER PEOPLE GET ON A PARTICULAR BANDWAGON, AND SOMETIMES AGAIN THIS LEADS TO AN EMOTIVE RESPONSE. MIKE, I WANT TO COME BACK TO YOU ON THIS ONE BECAUSE YOU WORK WITH THE HOWARD LEAGUE. THE IDEA OF` IT'S BEEN AROUND BEFORE, BUT THE IDEA OF SEPARATE MAORI PRISONS. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS? UM, I CAN'T SEE THAT THAT WOULD WORK FOR A WHOLE VARIETY OF REASONS. BUT I THINK THERE'S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT HERE. FRAN IS QUITE RIGHT ABOUT THE KNEE-JERK REACTIONS WE'VE HAD TO PENAL POPULISM, IF YOU LIKE. I THINK THAT ATTITUDE IS CHANGING, AND I GOT TO SPEAK HIGHLY OF BILL ENGLISH WHO IN MARCH 2014, PROCLAIMED THAT PRISONS ARE A MORAL AND FISCAL FAILURE. THEN YOU HAD DAVID SEYMOUR, THE ACT LEADER'S NEW POLICY A MONTH OR SO AGO, SUGGESTING THAT PRISONERS COULD GET REDUCTIONS IN THEIR SENTENCE BY ACQUIRING SKILLS. THAT WAS WELL-RECEIVED BY EVERYBODY, INCLUDING THE SENSIBLE SENTENCING TRUST. SO I THINK WE ARE STARTING TO SEE A VERY POSITIVE CHANGE IN PUBLIC ATTITUDES WHICH WE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF. AND I LOVE, UM, KELVIN DAVIS' IDEA OF A MULTIPARTISAM APPROACH TO THIS, BECAUSE THIS IS COSTING IS BILLIONS, AND IT DOESN'T NEED TO. ANTON, ARE ATTITUDES CHANGING? I THINK, UM, I JUST WANT TO GO BACK TO KELVIN'S DISCUSSION BEFORE. I SEE A FEW DANGERS IN LABOUR'S POLICY, BECAUSE THEY'RE TAKING A HARD LINE ON LAW AND ORDER, AND, UM, PARTICULARLY WAR ON METH. AND IN THE STATES WHERE WE'VE SEEN A MASSIVE ESCALATION IN THE NUMBER OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN JAIL, THAT WAS BECAUSE OF TOUGH LAW AND ORDER POLICIES AND THE WAR ON DRUGS. SO SOME OF THE` SOME OF THE INTERVENTIONS THAT BOTH LABOUR AND THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT ARE INVESTING IN WILL INCREASE SURVEILLANCE ON MAORI COMMUNITIES THROUGH THE VULNERABLE CHILDREN ACTIONS PLAN AND SEND MORE MAORI MEN TO JAIL. SO I THINK WE'RE AT A REALLY REALLY CRITICAL POINT. ON THAT POINT AS WELL, JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO WE ALL HEARD THE GOVERNMENT'S 880 NEW POLICE. THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT'S GOING TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A VERY TOUGH STANCE. AND LABOUR WANTS A THOUSAND. THEY WANT 1,000 NEW POLICE. SO THAT'S COMPLETELY AT ODDS WITH WHAT WE'VE JUST SAID, THOUGH. EXACTLY. AND A WAR ON METH, WHICH IS GOING TO, UM, INCREASE SURVEILLANCE OF MAORI COMMUNITIES. IS THAT WHERE THEY SHOULD BE SPENDING THE MONEY, MIKE? WELL, I THINK THEY HAVE TO, BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT SITUATIONS LIKE IN THE FAR NORTH, WHERE YOU'VE GOT KIDS RUNNING WILD. I THINK THAT'S A NEED THAT HAS TO BE MET. I CAN'T SEE ANY WAY OF AVOIDING THAT. BUT YOU'VE GOTTA DO A LOT OF OTHER SENSIBLE THINGS TOO. LITERACY, DRIVER'S LICENCE ` EASILY DONE. AND CHEAP TO DO. AND, YOU KNOW, GIVE US A LOT MORE OF THAT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. WHAT HOPE IS THERE, THOUGH, FRAN, OF GETTING CROSS-PARTY AGREEMENT, GIVEN THAT EVERYONE WANTS TO LOOK TOUGH ON LAW AND ORDER. THEY WANT TO LOOK LIKE THEY'RE LOCKING UP THE BAD GUYS FOR A LONG TIME. I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, BUT AGAIN THERE DOES NEED TO BE A VERY SENSIBLE AND, UM, I GUESS... YOU KNOW SOMEONE'S WHO ACTUALLY GOT TO OPEN THAT CONVERSATION. AND, YOU KNOW, TO GET IT IN THE NOTION` AND I THINK KELVIN OPENS THAT CONVERSATION. NATIONAL ` THE KIND OF APPROACH FROM BILL ENGLISH, THE INVESTMENT MODEL, IT DOES TAKE YOU INTO THAT TERRITORY, REALLY. THAT'S RIGHT. SO IT'S RATIONAL TO DO SO AND IF IT HAS A GOOD OUTCOME FOR PEOPLE, I MEAN, WHY NOT? I DON'T THINK YOU CAN SAY ON THE ONE HAND, WE WANT TO KEEP MAORI OUT OF JAIL, AND ON THE OTHER, SAY WE'RE TAKING A TOUGH LINE ON LAW ORDER AND WAR ON DRUGS. I THINK, ONE ` THEY DON'T SIT COMFORTABLY TOGETHER. AND, UM... BUT METH ISN'T ONLY A MAORI ISSUE. I MEAN IT IS AN ISSUE WHICH IS CUTTING` BUT, IN THE STATES, EVEN THE REPUBLICANS ARE SAYING 'NO MORE JAIL. LET'S MOVE TO DIVERSION.' SO I THINK THAT THOSE ARE THE AREAS WHERE WE NEED TO` I THINK YOU'VE GOTTA LOOK AT THE P PROBLEM AS VERY LARGELY A HEALTH PROBLEM RATHER THAN A LAW AND ORDER PROBLEM. BUT WE'RE NOT DOING THAT EITHER. ALL RIGHT, WE WILL LEAVE THAT THERE. DO STAY WITH US, DAVID CUNLIFFE HAS FAREWELLED PARLIAMENT AFTER 18 YEARS IN POLITICS. HE TALKS TO JESSICA AFTER THE BREAK. 1 DAVID CUNLIFFE, FORMER LABOUR LEADER AND 18-YEAR VETERAN OF PARLIAMENT, RETIRED FROM POLITICS THIS WEEK. IN HIS VALEDICTORY SPEECH, HE SAID 'POLITICS IS LIKE MALARIA.' AND HE BELIEVED HE WAS JUST ABOUT CURED OF POLITICS. SO I ASKED ` IS HE SURE? WELL, YOU'RE RIGHT. I DO FEEL KIND OF CURED. IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT YOU DON'T CARRY SOME TOXINS. BUT, UM, NO, IT'S BEEN 18 PRETTY GOOD YEARS. I'VE GIVEN IT THE BEST SHAKE I COULD. AND IT'S DEFINITELY TIME TO MOVE ON. I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT WHERE I'M GOING TO, AND, UM... SO IT'S JUST A CHANGE OF CHAPTER. WHAT MADE YOU THINK 'IT'S TIME TO GO'? WELL, LOOK, I THINK WHEN YOU'VE HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF LEADING A PARTY, UM, YOUR DUTY IS TO MAKE WAY FOR YOUR SUCCESSOR AT THE TIME YOU DECIDE TO STEP DOWN. I BACKED ANDREW LITTLE FOR THE JOB; I THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT CALL. AND, UM, IT'S TIME FOR ME TO MAKE SPACE, AND I AM FORTUNATE IT HASN'T BEEN TOO DIFFICULT TO FIND A GOOD ROLE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. I'M GOING TO AN EXCELLENT CONSULTING FIRM CALLED STAKEHOLDER STRATEGIES AND I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO STARTING THAT IN MAY. WHERE YOU A DISTRACTION, DO YOU THINK? I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK I'VE DONE WHAT I THOUGHT WAS RIGHT, WHICH IS THAT YOU BACK YOUR SUCCESSOR AND YOU'RE LOYAL TO THE TEAM, AND I THINK PEOPLE WOULD SAY I'VE DONE THAT. SO WHY NOT STICK AROUND, THEN, AND SUPPORT IT? WELL, I CERTAINLY WASN'T GOING TO DO A BY-ELECTION. AS I SAID IN THE VALEDICTORY, THAT WOULD'VE BEEN UNFAIR TO THE GOVERNMENT, HAVING SEEN THEM BEING WHIPPED TWICE ALREADY. AND I CERTAINLY WASN'T GOING TO DO IT TO THE GOOD PEOPLE OF NEW LYNN. I TOOK ON THE JOB FOR A TERM AND I'VE SEEN THROUGH MOST OF IT. I DON'T THINK IT WAS FAIR TO LEAVE JUST COS I FELT BORED. LOOKING BACK, YOU WERE A VERY SUCCESSFUL MINISTER UNDER HELEN CLARK. YOU WERE LABELLED AS LEADERSHIP POTENTIAL ALMOST AS SOON AS YOU CAME IN. YOU WERE THE LEADER. ON PAPER, YOU SHOULD'VE BEEN PRIME MINISTER, RIGHT? LOOK, MY TIMING WAS RUBBISH. UH, THE SITUATION THAT I INHERITED IN 2013 HAD THE PARTY AT A VERY LOW EBB. THE MEMBERSHIP WAS PRETTY DISENCHANTED, AND THAT WAS THE FIRST PRIORITY TO FIX. THERE WAS NO MONEY IN THE TILL, AND WE SPENT LESS THAN THE GREENS. THE CAUCUS FACTIONS WERE IN FULL FLIGHT, UH, AND WE HAD ALL THE WEIRDNESS OF THE 2014 CAMPAIGN. SO, UH, LOOK, IT WASN'T MY CHOICE THAT THAT SHOULD ARISE THEN, BUT IT DID. AND, UH, I WAS THE LAST OF THE THREE CANDIDATES TO PUT THEIR HAND UP FOR THAT. AND IT WAS A LION CALL, BUT IT WAS THE WRONG CALL IN HINDSIGHT. WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DO YOU TAKE, THOUGH? OH, AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT. I WAS THE LEADER, AND IN THE END I STEPPED DOWN TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR AN ELECTION RESULT THAT I DON'T THINK ANY OF US EXPECTED AND WOULDN'T HAVE WANTED. AND, YOU KNOW, A GREAT REGRET IS THAT THE PUBLIC OF NEW ZEALAND DIDN'T GET THE FRESH START THREE YEARS AGO THAT I HOPE THAT THEY WILL CHOOSE TO GET IN 2017. WHAT DID THE PEOPLE OF NEW ZEALAND NOT LIKE ABOUT YOU AS LEADER? YOU'VE HAD A BIT OF TIME TO REFLECT ON THAT. WELL, UH, YOU'D HAVE TO ASK THEM. AND WHAT I KNOW IS THAT THERE ARE CERTAINLY SOME THINGS I COULD HAVE DONE BETTER. AS I SAY, I GOT MY TIMING WRONG. I THINK I HAD THE` WHAT COULD YOU HAVE DONE BETTER? WELL, I THINK I WAS TOO OPTIMISTIC. UM, PERHAPS, POLITICIANS` THAT'S NOT REALLY A FLAW. NO, NO, NO. WELL, YOU CAN PUT DIFFERENT WORDS ON IT. MAYBE POLITICIANS` MAYBE I WAS TOO ARROGANT THINKING THAT I COULD, BY FORCE OF PERSONALITY, TURN THE PARTY AROUND IN SUCH A WAY THAT WE COULD, IF NOT WIN, COME VERY CLOSE IN 2014. AND I` I GOT THAT JUDGEMENT WRONG. IT WAS TOO HARD OF A JOB, AND I WAS LEARNING ON THE JOB. AND I DON'T THINK LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IS A DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITY. AS I SAY, MY TIMING WAS RUBBISH. WERE YOU ARROGANT IN OTHER ASPECTS OF LIFE? ON THE STAGE AND IN FRONT OF THE MEDIA, YOU HAVE A BIT OF THAT AS A LEADER. BUT DO YOU`? YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO BACK YOURSELF, BUT THERE'S NOTHING LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO REFLECT AND TO GROW THROUGH SOME OF THOSE THINGS. SO, YEAH, THERE'S CERTAINLY BEEN A FEW LIFE LESSONS. OTHERWISE, I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN CALLING THAT ON MYSELF NOW. YOU WILL BE SEEN AS SOMEONE WHO DESTABLED THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT. FAIR OR NOT? WHEN YOU TOOK OVER FROM DAVID SHEARER, DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU GOT A BAD REP? IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WISH YOU COULD RE-WRITE IN THE HISTORY BOOKS ABOUT THAT? FIRSTLY, TO MAKE IT CLEAR, I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT DAVID SHEARER WAS GOING TO STAND DOWN. I USED THE WORD 'TAKEOVER', THOUGH. YEAH, WELL, I PUT MY NAME IN THE RING. I WASN'T THE FIRST PERSON, AS I SAY, TO PUT MY HAND UP FOR THAT. IN FACT, I WAS THE LAST OF THE THREE CANDIDATES` BUT DO YOU AGREE THE WAY ANY OF THAT PLAYED OUT? WELL, LET'S RUN THE CLOCK BACK. UM, IN 2012, 2013, THE PARTY HAD, RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, MOVED BACK TO THE RIGHT. THE MEMBERSHIP HADN'T BEEN BROUGHT ALONG FOR THE RIDE. THERE WAS CONCERN ABOUT COMMUNICATION, BOTH EXTERNAL AND INTERNAL. BUT TALKING JUST ABOUT THIS... HERE ME OUT. UM, I THINK IT'S WRONG TO LAY AT THE FEET OF ANY ONE POLITICIAN. WHAT'S A MUCH BROADER AND DEEPER ISSUE, WHICH IS ABOUT WHETHER THE PARTY AS A WHOLE IS TOGETHER AND EXPRESSING WHAT THEY STAND FOR. NOW WHAT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN PASSIONATE ABOUT IS PROGRESSIVE POLITICS ` IT'S ABOUT THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN BUILD A MORE EQUAL SOCIETY, BECAUSE, AS I SAID IN MY VALEDICTORY, MORE EQUAL SOCIETIES DO BETTER. AND WHAT WE DIDN'T MANAGE TO DO WAS, FIRSTLY, BRING ALL OF OUR OWN CREW ALONG, AND SECONDLY COMMUNICATE TO AVERAGE KIWIS WHAT WAS IN IT FOR THEM. AND IF WE'D BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT, UM, MY HOPE IS DAVID SHEARER WOULD'VE BEEN ABLE TO GO RIGHT THROUGH TO THE 2014 ELECTION. IF I HAD CONTROL` AND PERHAPS PRIME MINISTER? ABSOLUTELY. UM, BECAUSE WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE, YOU WANT THE TEAM TO WIN, AND YOU WANT NEW ZEALANDERS TO HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THOSE POLICIES. I WANNA ASK YOU ABOUT THE ABC CLUB. DID THAT HURT YOUR FEELINGS WHEN YOU WERE LEADER? LOOK, YOU KNOW IN POLITICS THAT THERE ARE GONNA BE TIMES THAT ARE BRUISING AND TOUGH. IT WAS TOUGH TAKING ON TELECOM. IT WAS TOUGH SORTING OUT THE HEALTH SYSTEM. THERE WERE TOUGH TIMES AS MINISTER OF IMMIGRATION. AND THERE WERE TOUGH TIMES AS LEADER. BUT IF YOU'RE NOT UP FOR THOSE CHALLENGES, YOU CAN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. I WAS IN POLITICS BECAUSE I BELIEVED IN MAKING A BETTER NEW ZEALAND. I BELIEVE IN THOSE PROGRESSIVE VALUES THAT MORE EQUAL SOCIETIES DO BETTER, AND THAT EVERYBODY DESERVES A FAIR SHOT. IT WAS WORTH THE CONTRIBUTION, AND I HOPE I'VE DONE THE BEST THAT I COULD. LOOKING AT IT NOW, ALMOST FROM THE OUTSIDE, WHERE IS LABOUR AT AT THE MOMENT? IS IT TOO FAR LEFT? LOOK, I THINK, NO, CERTAINLY NOT. UM, BUT I THINK LABOUR IS IMMENSELY BETTER PREPARED THIS TIME. I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND COMMEND THE WORK THAT ANDREW LITTLE AND HIS TEAM HAVE DONE. DO YOU THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM FOR LABOUR, THOUGH? NO. LOOK, IF WE CAN'T COMMUNICATE OUR VALUES... FIRST, YOU HAVE TO BE TRUE TO THEM, AND I THINK WE ARE. AND I THINK THERE WAS A BIT OF AN ISSUE ABOUT THAT A FEW YEARS AGO. I ALSO THINK WE'RE MUCH BETTER PREPARED. THERE'S MORE MONEY IN THE TILL. THE CAMPAIGN SYSTEMS HAVE BEEN REBUILT. THE CAUCUS HAS BEEN SETTLED DOWN. I BACKED ANDREW FOR THE JOB BECAUSE I THOUGHT HE WAS BEST ABLE TO DO THAT, AND HE HAS DONE IT. AND GOOD ON HIM. AND I KNOW ANDREW PRETTY WELL ` NEVER UNDERESTIMATE ANDREW LITTLE. HE'S A MAN OF VALUES AND STRENGTH, AND I THINK HE WILL MAKE A GREAT PRIME MINISTER. AS OBJECTIVELY AS YOU CAN, OF COURSE,... AS OBJECTIVELY AS I HAVE BEEN. ...HOW DO SEE THE ELECTION THIS YEAR PLAYING OUT? WHAT DO YOU THINK'S GOING TO HAPPEN? WELL, FIRSTLY, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE EXTREMELY CLOSE. I THINK LABOUR AND THE GREENS TOGETHER ARE ALREADY POLLING VERY CLOSE TO THE GOVERNMENT, AND THAT'S BEFORE THE CAMPAIGN'S EVEN STARTED. AS I SAY, LABOUR'S IMMEASURABLY BETTER ORGANISED, BETTER PREPARED, BETTER FUNDED. THE DATA IS THERE. THE SYSTEMS ARE THERE. THERE ARE MORE VOLUNTEERS; THE TROOPS ON THE GROUND ARE FIRED UP. UM, SO I THINK YOU CAN EXPECT A TOP CAMPAIGN FROM LABOUR, AND I THINK ANDREW'S LEADING THE PARTY WELL. I THINK JACINDA WILL ADD A BIT OF FIZZ FACTOR TO THAT, AND I THINK WE'RE IN GOOD SHAPE. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL. NOW, MIKE, I'M GONNA START WITH YOU. WAS HE JUST A VICTIM OF BAD TIMING? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? I` I THINK IN PART THAT'S TRUE. BUT HE WAS ALSO UP AGAINST, WHAT I THINK, IS THE GREATEST POLITICIAN OF MY LIFE ` JOHN KEY. I DON'T THINK ANYONE WAS GONNA BEAT JOHN KEY IN THAT ELECTION. HE'S CORRECT IN SAYING THAT THE PARTY ORGANISATION WAS AT A VERY LOW EBB, AND IT'S MUCH, MUCH BETTER NOW. I MEAN, THEY WERE RUNNING ON THE SMELL OF AN OILY RAG WHEN DAVID WAS THE LEADER. THE GREENS OUTSPENT THEM, FOR GODS SAKE. UM, HOWEVER, HE DID PUT HIS FINGER ON THE WORD 'ARROGANT', AND THAT'S HOW HE BECAME PERCEIVED, RIGHT OR WRONG. I NEVER SAW THAT IN HIM. I SAT IN THE CAUCUS FOR NEARLY A DECADE WITH DAVID IN THAT CAUCUS. I DIDN'T PERCEIVE HIM AS ARROGANT, AND YET I TALKED TO SOME PEOPLE THIS MORNING IN PREPARATION FOR THIS Q+A, AND THEY SAID` I SAID 'WHAT WORD COMES TO MIND?' AND THEY SAID 'ARROGANT.' EXACTLY THE WORD HE USED. FRAN, WHEN YOU'VE GOT A MOVEMENT NAMED AFTER YOU ` 'ABC, ANYTHING BUT CUNLIFFE', IT DOESN'T BODE WELL THAT YOUR TEAM'S ON YOUR SIDE, DOES IT? NO, AND ARGUABLY HE WAS, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE GENERAL WHO WAS SO FAR AHEAD OF THE TROOPS, YOU WERE GONNA GET SHOT IN THE ASS. I MEAN THAT'S I` YOU SAID ASS AND HONKY THIS MORNING. IT'S BEEN A BIG MORNING. (LAUGHS) AH, THEY'RE NOT RUDE WORDS. (LAUGHS) AND ANYWAY... NO, NO. BUT, UM, THEY WERE VERY CREDIBLE PEOPLE; THE ANYONE BUT CUNLIFFE CLUB. AND THEY WERE PEOPLE WHO'D SERVED IN CABINET WITH HIM. AND, UM, ARGUABLY HE SHOULD HAVE DONE WHAT HELEN CLARK DID, AND MAKE SURE HE HUGGED HIS SO-CALLED 'ENEMIES' A LOT TIGHTER THAN HE ACTUALLY DID. UM, A LOT WAS SAID AT THE TIME THAT MAYBE PEOPLE WANTED` WANTED THEM TO FAIL IN THIS PARTICULAR ELECTION. I DON'T ACTUALLY BUY THAT. BUT I THINK HE HAD A COMMUNICATION PROBLEM. HE OPERATED REALLY WELL WITH BUSINESS ` BUSINESS GOT HIM. FOR INSTANCE, THE POLICIES THAT THEY TOOK TO THE ELECTION ABOUT INTERGENERATIONAL FAIRNESS ` COMPULSORY SUPERANNUATION, PUTTING UP AGE OF ELIGIBILITY FOR NATIONAL SUPER AND CAPITAL GAINS TAX ` HE MOUNTED COMPELLING CASES FOR THAT FOR BUSINESS, AND BUSINESS GOT IT. BUT THEN YOU HAD` THEN HE WOULD GET ON THAT TRUCK OUT IN THE WEST, YOU KNOW, WITH THE LOUD HAILER AND SOUND` AND TRY TO BE CLOTH CAP, AND SOMETHING IN THE IMAGE DIDN'T QUITE GEL. AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK WAS HIS PROBLEM. AUTHENTICITY. BUT HE WAS SORT OF THE ANOINTED ONE. HE WAS VERY MUCH SEEN AS ANOINTED AND VERY CLOSE TO HELEN. ALMOST LIKE A, YOU KNOW, AS YOU WOULD SEE IN A COMPANY ` AN EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT TO A CEO. BUT I THINK THAT ALSO CREATED RESENTMENT AMONG THE TROOPS THAT THIS VERY STELLAR GUY HAD ARRIVED, AND NOT EVERYBODY LIKED THAT SORT OF AIR OF INVINCIBILITY AND A RIDE TO THE TOP, WHICH HE CARRIED WITH HIM AT THAT TIME. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BUSINESS SIDE A LITTLE BIT MORE, BECAUSE I KNOW THIS IS SOMETHING YOU WERE WELL UP ON AT THE TIME. HE CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE WITH THE TELCOS, DIDN'T HE? YES. YES. AND I THINK THAT WAS... I MEAN, IT TOOK NO SMALL AMOUNT OF COURAGE TO TAKE ON TELECOM AT THE TIME. IT WAS THE MAJOR LISTED COMPANY IN NEW ZEALAND, AND IT HAD ENORMOUS POWER. AND IT HAD HAD A SERIES OF VERY STRONG DIRECTORS. PEOPLE LIKE RODERICK DEANE AS THE CHAIRMAN, THERESA GATTUNG, AND SO FORTH. AND TO TAKE THAT ON AND TO SUCCEED AND TO DRIVE IT THROUGH, HAS MADE SUCH A DIFFERENCE IN NEW ZEALAND AND BASICALLY CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE. YOU` YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FUNDING AT THE TIME V THE FUNDING NOW, MIKE. AND YOU'VE HAD THIS MASSIVE CLEAN-UP. DAVID CUNLIFFE'S GONE; PHIL GOFF'S GONE; DAVID SHEARER'S GONE. IT IS VERY MUCH A NEW LOOK LABOUR FROM WHAT WE SAW. IT IS. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, THERE'S ALSO BEEN A TURNOVER IN THE LABOUR PARTY'S ORGANISATION. YOU'VE NOW GOT A PRACTICALLY FULL-TIME PRESIDENT IN NIGEL HAWORTH, AND A VASTLY BETTER GENERAL SECRETARY. I'M GETTING EMAILS ON AN ALMOST WEEKLY BASIS ASKING ME FOR MONEY. THAT NEVER HAPPENED UNTIL ANDREW KIRTON CAME ON. AND AS OFTEN AS NOT, I REACH FOR MY CREDIT CARD AND GIVE THEM 50 BUCKS. THINGS ARE MUCH BETTER ORGANISED. THE CAUCUS IS MUCH UNITED BEHIND ANDREW LITTLE. IT IS A DIFFERENT PARTY THAN THE ONE THAT DAVID CUNLIFFE LED, AND A LOT OF THAT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM. IT'S JUST THE DEVELOPMENT; WHAT HAPPENS TO A PARTY AFTER IT'S BEEN IN GOVERNMENT AND GETS DEFEATED. THE SAME THING WILL HAPPEN TO NATIONAL IF THEY GET DEFEATED ON SEPTEMBER 23RD. THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS. ANTON, THE OTHER PUSH IS FOR THE YOUNGER VOTERS. WITH JACINDA THERE, WHICH WE DID HUGE DAVID CUNLIFFE MENTION, IS THAT REACH HAPPENING, DO YOU FEEL? UM, I THINK SOME OF THEIR POLICIES ARE DEFINITELY DIRECTED AT THE MILLENNIALS. AND, UM, I REALLY LIKE THE FOCUS IN INVESTING IN YOUNG ENTREPRENEURS. UM, I THINK WHAT THE REAL CHALLENGE FOR THEM IS HAVING CHARISMATIC LEADERSHIP. AND, UM, TO ME THAT WILL BE THE TEST. I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT, BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE GOING BACK TO IS TWO LEADERS WHO ARE REALLY NOT THAT CHARISMATIC. EXACTLY. AND THIS IS` THIS IS NORMAL FOR NEW ZEALAND. WE'VE JUST BEEN THROUGH A VERY ABNORMAL PERIOD WHERE THERE WAS A TOTALLY DOMINANT POLITICIAN WHO'S NOW GONE. BUT YOU'VE GOT THIS OTHER WEIRD SITUATION AS WELL. THERE'S TWO CO-LEADERS WHO ARE A ` VERY CHARISMATIC, AND B ` BOTH WOMEN AS WELL. BOTH COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAYS THERE. BUT, UM,... PART OF THE SPOUSAL EFFECT. THE POLITICAL SPOUSAL EFFECT. WOMEN BROUGHT ON FOR THE FIZZ AS WAS MENTIONED BY DAVID CUNLIFFE. IT'S A BIT OF A SHAME, REALLY, PARTICULARLY WHEN WE'VE HAD STELLAR FEMALE LEADERS LIKE HELEN CLARK. EXACTLY. DID HE GET A ROUGH RIDE? YES, HE DID. I ACCEPT THE TIMING, BUT DID HE GET A ROUGH RIDE? HE GOT A ROUGH RIDE FROM THE MEDIA IN PARTICULAR. AND THAT'S BECAUSE WHAT HE DIDN'T DO VERY WELL IS COURT THE MEDIA. UM, I THINK HE PROBABLY FOUND THAT ASPECT OF RETAIL POLITICS, WORKING OVER THE PRESS GALLERY, KIND OF BENEATH HIM A BIT. AND WHEN THE DONGHUA LIU STORY WAS PLANTED WITH MEDIA AT THE TIME, AND BECOME A MAJOR ISSUE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAD PEOPLE REALLY HYPERVENTILATING AND SAYING HE SHOULD RESIGN OVER THE SO-CALLED SCANDAL. WELL, IT WAS NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BLANKET WITH NATIONAL. SO, YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE THAT. HE DIDN'T JUST HAVE THAT RESERVOIR OF TRUST AND COMMUNICATION AND SUPPORT TO RIDE IT OUT. WHEREAS A MORE SKILLED POLITICIAN IN THAT AREA PROBABLY COULD HAVE TURNED IT 'ROUND. HE PAINTED A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE WITH THE TIME WITH DAVID SHEARER. BUT ALL THE STORIES COMING OUT OF PARLIAMENT ` THERE WAS BLOOD ON THE FLOOR DURING THAT WHOLE TASK. AND THEN HE TALKED ABOUT THE WEIRDNESS OF 2014, WHICH WAS REALLY WEIRD. IT WAS REALLY WEIRD. I'VE BEEN THROUGH 40 ELECTION CAMPAIGNS IN AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE` THE ODDEST ELECTION CAMPAIGN. I MEAN, ALL WE TALKED ABOUT WAS THE NICKY HAGER BOOK. YES. YES. THERE WAS NO POLICY. THERE WAS NO FOCUS ON LEADERSHIP. AND THERE WAS ALMOST NO CHANGE IN THE POLLS FOR THE ENTIRE ELECTION CAMPAIGN. I HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE, AND IT WON'T HAPPEN THIS TIME. YOU MENTIONED THE BRIDGE HE BUILT WITH BUSINESS, AND WHAT HE DID WITH BUSINESS, CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE. GRANT ROBERTSON WOULD SEEM TO BE THE SUCCESSOR TO THAT IN MANY WAYS. IS HE GOING TO BE AN ABLE PERSON TO FILL THOSE SHOES? HE IS ABLE, BUT IN SOME WAYS THERE ARE OTHERS IN THE CAUCUS WHO HAVE THAT, UM, RELATABLE ASPECT WITH BUSINESS MORE. PROBABLY PEOPLE LIKE PHIL TWYFORD ARE VERY PRESENTABLE, VERY URBAN, VERY, UM,... JACINDA, TOO. AND JACINDA. VERY AUCKLAND. WHEREAS I THINK GRANT IS SORT OF PROBABLY MORE LIKE THE OLD SCHOOL FINANCE MINISTER, WHO, YOU KNOW, LOOKS AT THE ECONOMY AND THE ROUND. BUT I SEE IT MORE AS A SOCIAL PORTFOLIO PERSON, IN MANY RESPECTS. UM, I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE OF THOSE JOBS THAT YOU'VE GOT COS YOU DIDN'T GET THE TOP JOB, UH, IN A WAY. BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT HE'S TOTALLY COMFORTABLE IN THAT ROLE. ALL RIGHT. WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE. AFTER THE BREAK, KATIE BRADFORD LOOKS AT A CROWD SOURCED REVIEW OF OUR MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM. WHAT CHANGES DID THEY WANT FROM THE GOVERNMENT? LOTS OF RED FLAGS. LOTS OF PROBLEMS, AND LOTS OF AREAS OF THE SYSTEM ARE OVERWHELMED. . WELCOME BACK. LAST YEAR A GROUP OF NEW ZEALANDERS, INCLUDING PSYCHOLOGIST KYLE MACDONALD AND COMEDIAN MIKE KING, LAUNCHED A PROJECT CALLED 'THE PEOPLE'S REVIEW OF THE PUBLIC MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM'. DESPITE REPORTS OF PROBLEMS AND PRESSURES IN THE SYSTEM, THE GOVERNMENT WASN'T INTERESTED IN A FORMAL REVIEW, SO THE GROUP CROWDSOURCED THEIR OWN, INVITING PEOPLE TO TELL THEIR MENTAL HEALTH STORIES. KATIE BRADFORD WITH THIS. KIA ORA. MY NAME IS ROBBIE, AND I'M ANOTHER WHITE MAN BEHIND A DESK. HE'S A BREAKOUT COMEDY STAR WITH HIS OWN SATIRICAL WEB SERIES, ...AND APPARENTLY YOU JUST SHARED SOMETHING POLITICAL ON SOCIAL MEDIA. WAS IT UNREFERENCED OR OUT OF CONTEXT? DON'T WORRY. I'M FROM THE INTERNET TOO. THE SAD-FACED CLOWN IS A WELL-WORN CLICHE, BUT ROBBIE NICHOL FREELY ADMITS JOKES ARE HIS WAY OF COPING WITH ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION. IT DEFINITELY FEELS LIKE THAT IS A JOKE THAT KIND OF WRITES ITSELF ` THAT YOU'RE A PERSON WHO SAYS, 'I'M REALLY STRUGGLING TO DO DAY TO DAY TASKS, 'I'M NOT COPING WITH NORMAL LIFE, AND THEN THEY GO, 'I'VE GOT THE PERFECT SOLUTION ` HERE'S SO MUCH MORE WORK TO DO.' AND HE'S HAD TO WORK HARD TO GET THE HELP HE NEEDED, SHUTTLING BETWEEN HIS GP AND WORK AND INCOME JUST TO GET REFERRED TO A COUNSELLOR. SO I WENT TO MY GP, AND THEN THEY SUGGESTED I GO TO WELLINGTON ANXIETY SPECIALISTS. I WENT TO WINZ, THEN I WENT TO THE DOCTOR AGAIN. I WENT BACK TO WINZ, THEY SAID, 'OH, GOOD NEWS,' AND THEN, KIND OF, GAVE ME THIS HUGE STACK OF FORMS. THOSE MUNDANE BUT DIFFICULT FORMS FINALLY LED TO COUNSELLING AND FINDING WAYS TO COPE. I CAME CLOSE TO SUICIDE AT ONE POINT, UM, AND,... YEAH, THAT WAS` THAT WAS A REAL, UM, SCARY MOMENT, AND LUCKILY, UM, I STOPPED BEFORE I FOLLOWED THROUGH. UM, THERE WAS KIND OF A MOMENT OF STILLNESS, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT ABOUT MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS, AND SO THAT WAS A TOUGH MOMENT. (PLAYS CELLO) MUSIC IS THERAPY FOR ENGINEERING STUDENT LUCY MCSWEENEY. PLAYING THE CELLO SINCE SHE WAS 4, IT BECAME A HAVEN AS SHE DEALT WITH ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION IN HER TEENS. I PROBABLY SOUGHT HELP SIX MONTHS TOO LATE, BECAUSE I WAS SCARED BECAUSE I DIDN'T RECOGNISE IN MYSELF THAT I WAS HAVING A TOUGH TIME. I KIND OF JUST, LIKE, PUSHED IT ASIDE AND TOLD MYSELF I WAS BEING SILLY. WITH A FRESH VIEW ON LIFE, THE 21-YEAR-OLD NOW WANTS TO HELP OTHERS. SHE'S STARTED A PETITION CALLING FOR MORE MENTAL HEALTH EDUCATION IN HIGH SCHOOLS. SO FAR IT HAS 5000 SIGNATURES. I JUST REALLY WASN'T PREPARED FOR WHAT I DEALT WITH, AND THE PEOPLE AROUND ME WEREN'T PREPARED, SO I THINK THAT MEANT MY FRIENDS COULDN'T REALLY SUPPORT ME AS MUCH AS I THINK THEY WOULD'VE LIKED. THESE ARE THE STORIES PSYCHOTHERAPIST KYLE MACDONALD HAS BEEN COLLECTING AS PART OF A PROJECT CALLED 'THE PEOPLE'S REVIEW OF THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM', A CROWDSOURCED REPORT. WITH THE IDEA THAT IF THE GOVERNMENT WEREN'T GOING TO CARRY OUT A REVIEW, WE'D CARRY OUT OUR OWN. OVER 500 PEOPLE SUBMITTED THEIR EXPERIENCES ` PEOPLE WHO HAD EXPERIENCED MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, AND PEOPLE WORKING IN THE SYSTEM TOO. THE REPORT WILL BE RELEASED NEXT WEEK, AND KYLE SAYS THERE WILL BE FEW SURPRISES. THERE'S LOTS OF RED FLAGS, LOTS OF PROBLEMS AND LOTS OF AREAS OF THE SYSTEM ARE OVERWHELMED, AND THAT'S HAVING SOME REALLY CLEAR EFFECTS IN TERMS OF THE BIG TRAGIC STORIES OF PREVENTABLE DEATHS BUT ALSO LONG WAITING TIMES FOR PEOPLE TO ACCESS PARTICULARLY THERAPY SERVICES. THOSE LONG WAITING TIMES CAN BE UP TO SIX MONTHS IN SOME CASES. WHEN WE LOOK AT ACUTE SERVICES IN PARTICULAR BEING OVERWHELMED, IT'S REALLY UNDERSTANDABLE THAT WHAT THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY DOING IS PICKING UP THE PROBLEMS OF COMMUNITY SERVICES NOT BEING ABLE TO ENGAGE WITH PEOPLE EARLIER. (SIREN WAILS) POLICE SAY THEY'RE ALSO FEELING THE PRESSURE. POLICE STATISTICS SHOW THEY DEAL WITH 90 MENTAL HEALTH RELATED ISSUES EVERY 24 HOURS. AND IN THE LAST YEAR, THEY WERE CALLED OUT OVER 45,000 TIMES FOR MENTAL HEALTH RELATED ISSUES. THAT'S 5000 MORE TIMES THAN THE YEAR BEFORE. AND THEN AT THE SHARP END OF THE ISSUE ARE THE PATIENTS WHO, EVEN WHILE UNDER CARE OF SOME SORT, TAKE THEIR OWN LIFE. THE FAMILY OF WAIKATO MAN NICKY STEVENS HAVE SPOKEN PUBLICLY ABOUT THEIR FRUSTRATION IN GETTING ANSWERS FROM THE WAIKATO DHB AFTER THE 21-YEAR-OLD DIED WHILE IN THEIR CARE. FIGURES SHOW THE NUMBER OF OUTPATIENTS WHO COMMIT SUICIDE HAS BEEN INCREASING. IN 2016 THERE WERE 142 SUICIDES THAT'S 17 MORE PEOPLE THAN THE YEAR BEFORE. KYLE MACDONALD SAYS THE PEOPLE'S REVIEW WILL MAKE A NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS WHEN IT'S RELEASED NEXT WEEK, BUT HE STRONGLY BELIEVES AN INDEPENDENT INQUIRY IS A PRIORITY. WE CAN START TO JOIN UP SOME OF THESE DOTS. WE'RE STARTING TO HEAR SOME OF THE STORIES OVER AND OVER AGAIN OF SERVICE FAILURE AND FRUSTRATION AND PREVENTABLE DEATHS, AND I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE SYSTEM AS A WHOLE RATHER THAN DHB BY DHB INQUIRIES, WHERE IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHETHER THOSE CHANGES ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED. THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF MENTAL HEALTH, THOUGH, SAYS AN INQUIRY IS NOT THE ANSWER THE SERVICES ARE WORKING VERY HARD TO MAKE CHANGES AND TO MAKE IMPROVEMENTS. MY CONCERN WOULD BE` IS GIVEN ALL THAT EFFORT AND ALL OF THE INNOVATION THAT PEOPLE ARE DEVELOPING TO IMPROVE SERVICES THAT WE WOULDN'T WANT ANY EXTERNAL PROCESS TO DISTRACT OR DETRACT FROM THE GAINS THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING. THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT'S COMMITTED AN EXTRA $300 MILLION RINGFENCED FOR MENTAL HEALTH FUNDING, AND JUST THIS WEEK, HEALTH MINISTER JONATHAN COLEMAN RELEASED A DRAFT SUICIDE PREVENTION STRATEGY. IT INCLUDES MORE SUPPORT FOR FAMILIES. MONEY ON ITS OWN IS NOT GOING TO FIX THE SYSTEM, EVEN THOUGH UNDERFUNDING HAS CAUSED A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS. SO WE'VE NOW GOT SOME PRETTY ENTRENCHED SYSTEMIC ISSUES ACROSS THE NATION. (PLAYS CELLO) FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN THIS STORY, THE HOPE IS THAT SHARING THEIR STORIES WILL LEAD TO MEANINGFUL CHANGE FOR EVERYONE. IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SUICIDE AND SUICIDAL THOUGHTS, NOBODY SHOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH THAT. IT'S A HORRIBLE EXPERIENCE, UM,... AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT COME FORWARD AND SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCES, I'M REALLY CHUFFED THAT THEY DO THAT. UP NEXT ON Q+A, A NEW HISTORY OF NEW ZEALAND'S PRIME MINISTERS, FROM DICK SEDDON TO JOHN KEY. WHO'S OUR GREATEST? WHENA OWEN'S STORY AFTER THE BREAK. WELCOME BACK. A MAN WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE BEEN ON FIRST-NAME BASIS WITH ALL NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTERS SINCE 1957 HAS WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT THEM AND THE PRIME MINISTERS WHO CAME BEFORE. HISTORIAN AND FORMER CABINET MINISTER DR MICHAEL BASSETT LAUNCHED HIS BOOK ON NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTERS LAST WEEK AND SHARED SOME OF HIS INSIDE KNOWLEDGE WITH REPORTER WHENA OWEN. (CLASSICAL PIANO MUSIC) OUR PREMIERS AND PRIME MINISTERS. NEW ZEALAND HAS HAD 39 LEADERS. BUT DR MICHAEL BASSETT STARTS WITH THE FIRST LEADER TO CALL HIMSELF PRIME MINISTER, RICHARD SEDDON. I THINK SEDDON IS THE FIRST OF THE REALLY POPULAR LEADERS. TOUGH AS OLD BOOTS AND FULL OF STORIES. SEDDON WAS OUR LONGEST SERVING LEADER ` 13 YEARS AND A MONTH. BUT WAS HE OUR GREATEST? FOR A LONG TIME PEOPLE SAID HE WAS THE GREATEST. BUT IT'S ALSO BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WHAT BECOMES THE BASE OF MODERN NEW ZEALAND COINCIDES WITH THOSE YEARS. AND BY THE TIME SEDDON GOES, NEW ZEALAND IS A DIFFERENT PLACE. ARCHIVE FOOTAGE: NOT SINCE THE DEATH OF RICHARD SEDDON HAD WELLINGTON SEEN SUCH A FUNERAL PROCESSION. AND HERE'S A TIP FOR ASPIRING LEADERS. IT'S TRUE THAT IF YOU DO DIE IN OFFICE YOU GET ALMOST A CULT STATUS. (CLASSICAL MUSIC) SAVAGE IS THE OPTIMISTIC UNCLE WHO POINTS THE WAY OUT OF THE DEPRESSION, AND HE HAS EMOTIONAL APPEAL. I AM GLAD TO BE HOME AND TO FIND THE PEOPLE IN SUCH GOOD HEART. FRASER DIDN'T HAVE EMOTIONAL APPEAL HE WAS NOT AN ORATOR BUT HE HAD BRAINS. BASSETT APPLAUDS FRASER'S DECISION TO KEEP OUR TROOPS IN EUROPE. HE'S REALLY THE FIRST PERSON WHO` WELL, MAYBE HIS PREDECESSOR SAVAGE, GOT THE BEGINNINGS OF AN INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY. WELL, LOOK AT THESE CHAPS. I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL. I WELCOME THEM ALL TO THE TEAM. THERE WAS THAT PLUMMY VOICE AND HE'S QUITE AN ORDINARY SORT OF A PERSON. KEITH WAS NEVER REALLY VERY GOOD ON TELEVISION. NO, MR SCOTT. (MUTTERS INDISTINCTLY) REALLY IT WAS MULDOON WHO WAS THE FIRST PERSON WHO REALLY STARTED TO MASTER TELEVISION FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES. DO YOU CONSIDER YOUR FUNCTIONS YOU WANT TO ATTEND IN AUCKLAND WARRANT THE CHARTERING OF A SPECIAL FLIGHT? DO YOU CONSIDER BRINGING TWO TELEVISION CAMERAS OUT HERE AS WARRANTED? MULDOON ACTUALLY SAID WHEN HE BECAME PRIME MINISTER THAT HIS GOAL WAS TO LEAVE NEW ZEALAND NO WORSE THAN HE'D FOUND IT. NO? AND I'M AFRAID HE FAILED THAT VERY MODEST TEST. BY 1984, THINGS WERE VERY, VERY SERIOUS. # ONE STEP AHEAD OF YOU. # THE COUNTRY WAS IN TERRIBLE SHAPE AND THERE WAS A RECORD TURN-OUT TO THE POLLS ON A DAY WHEN IT TEAMED WITH RAIN. BEHIND ME WE HAVE A PRIME MINISTER. (CHEERING) THEY WANTED CHANGE AND THEY GOT IT. (CHUCKLES) PRIME MINISTER, CAN WE HAVE A BRIEF WORD? WOMBAT. MICHAEL BASSETT IS DAVID LANGE'S COUSIN. HE WAS DELIVERED BY LANGE'S DOCTOR FATHER AND WAS A KEY MINISTER IN LANGE'S CABINET. WHEN LIFE WAS AT ITS HARDEST AND THE ISSUES THAT WE FACED SEEMED THE TOUGHEST, LANGE COULD TELL THE FUNNIEST STORIES. I MEAN, HE WAS AN AMAZING INDIVIDUAL. WONDERFUL TO WORK FOR WHEN HE WAS AT HIS BEST. BUT THAT DAVID LANGE DISAPPEARED OUT THE DOOR IN 1987. WHY WAS THAT? COMBINATION OF THINGS. I THINK PRIMARILY HIS ILLNESS. HIS TYPE II DIABETES WAS PLAYING UP. AND AS IF ALL OF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH, HE'D FALLEN IN LOVE. IN THE BOOK, BASSETT'S BOOK PROFILES EACH LEADER AND THROWS IN SOME LITTLE-KNOWN FACTS. I THROW SOME BACK. WHICH PRIME MINISTER WAS KNOWN TO SHOOT PIGEONS FROM HIS OFFICE? NORMAN KIRK. WHICH PRIME MINISTER MADE SURE A NEW ROAD TO BE BUILT WENT CLOSE BY HIS NEW TAUPO BACH? KEITH HOLYOAKE. WHICH PRIME MINISTER, BEFORE HE BECAME LEADER, SPENT A YEAR IN JAIL FOR OPPOSING... PETER FRASER, OPPOSING CONSCRIPTION. I ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE RESULT. HELEN CLARK'S MANAGEMENT OF THE LABOUR PARTY WAS EXTRAORDINARY. SHE'S RIGHT UP THERE. IT'S NOT ONLY THE FACT THAT SHE'S THERE FOR NNE YEARS. IT'S JUST THAT SHE WAS A VERY, VERY EFFECTIVE LEADER. (CROWD CHEERS) NOTHING WORRIED KEY MUCH. THE SECRET TO HIS EXTRAORDINARY POPULARITY, I THINK, WAS THE FACT THAT HE JUST SEEMED LIKE AN ORDINARY GUY, YOU KNOW? SO HAVING FINISHED THE BOOK, WHO WOULD YOU RATE AS YOUR TOP FIVE NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTERS? THEY'D BE FRASER, SEDDON, MASSEY, CLARK, LANGE, KEY. I'VE PUT SIX IN. (LAUGHS) WHAT DOES A GOOD PRIME MINISTER OF NEW ZEALAND` WHAT SORT OF QUALITIES DO THEY NEED TO HAVE IN THIS ERA? THEY'VE GOT TO BE, ABOVE ALL IN TODAY'S DAY AND AGE, HIGHLY INTELLIGENT, THEY'VE GOT TO BE` TO HAVE ENORMOUS ENERGY. THEY'VE GOT TO HAVE A RESTLESSNESS TO SEARCH OUT NEW WAYS OF ACTUALLY SOLVING NEW AND OLD PROBLEMS. UH, AND YOU'VE, ABOVE ALL, GOT TO HAVE GOOD HEALTH. AND IF YOU'VE GOT ALL OF THOSE, AND YOU'RE COMFORTABLE IN YOUR OWN SKIN JOHN KEY STYLE ` YOU'RE A WINNER. (INSTRUMENTAL 'GOD DEFEND NEW ZEALAND') MARAE IS NEXT. REMEMBER, Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING. THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS. THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017