KEI NGA IHOIHO O NGA MAUNGA WHAKAHI, KEI NGA WAI WHAKATERE TANIWHA TENA KOUTOU KATOA. KO MIHINGARANGI TENEI E MIHI ATU NEI, NAU MAI, TAHUTI MAI RA. WELCOME TO THE HUI, MAORI CURRENT AFFAIRS FOR ALL NEW ZEALANDERS. COMING UP THIS MORNING ` IT'S THE 22-HOUR ARMED SIEGE THAT ENDED WITH FOUR POLICE OFFICERS WOUNDED, AND 28-YEAR-OLD RHYS WARREN'S SERVING JAIL TIME FOR ATTEMPTED MURDER. TODAY WE INVESTIGATE THE POLICE ACTIONS IN THE LEAD-UP TO THE STANDOFF AND ASK ` DID IT NEED TO HAPPEN AT ALL? THEY MADE A BIG MISTAKE. THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE COME IN. THEY SHOULD HAVE MADE SURE TO CONTACT THE FAMILY. AND THE SENSIBLE SENTENCING TRUST'S GARTH MCVICAR AND SIR PITA SHARPLES ARE IN STUDIO TO FACE OFF OVER MAORI INCARCERATION AND REOFFENDING RATES AND WHO'S TO BLAME. WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM. IT'S NOT A CORRECTIONS DEPARTMENT PROBLEM; IT'S MAORIDOM FAILING THEIR KIDS. AS SIMPLE AS THAT. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017 KARAHUIHUI MAI. NEXT MONTH, 28-YEAR-OLD RHYS RICHARD NGAHIWI WARREN WILL BE SENTENCED FOR ATTEMPTED MURDER, FOLLOWING HIS PART IN THE SO-CALLED 'KAWERAU SIEGE' LAST YEAR, WHERE FOUR POLICE OFFICERS WERE INJURED IN A SHOOT-OUT. THROUGHOUT HIS TRIAL, RHYS WARREN NEVER DENIED FIRING HIS WEAPON BUT SAID HE FELT THREATENED BY THE POLICE IN HIS HOUSE, REMINDING JURORS OF THE DISTRUST BETWEEN MAORI AND THE POLICE IN THE AREA, FOLLOWING THE TUHOE RAIDS 10 YEARS AGO. HE ARGUED HE WAS MERELY DEFENDING HIMSELF. THE JURY DISAGREED. BUT HOW DID IT EVEN GET TO THAT POINT? COULD THE SHOOTING AND SIEGE HAVE BEEN AVOIDED? COULD A SIMPLE KORERO HAVE CHANGED EVERYTHING? WE ASKED POLICE TO BE INTERVIEWED FOR THIS STORY, BUT THEY DECLINED. THIS IS RHYS WARREN'S SIDE OF THE STORY. HERE'S REWA HARRIMAN WITH A SPECIAL REPORT, PRODUCED BY MIKE MCROBERTS. (TRANQUIL MUSIC) ONEPU, A SLEEPY SETTLEMENT NESTLED BETWEEN TE TEKO AND KAWERAU. NOT A LOT HAPPENS HERE. NOT MANY PEOPLE EVEN KNOW IT EXISTS. BUT THAT ALL CHANGED THIS TIME LAST YEAR. (SIRENS WAIL) AT AROUND 10.45AM TODAY, THREE SHOTS WERE HEARD BY POLICE STAFF. AFTER A POLICE PLANE FLYING OVER THE AREA ON A CANNABIS CLEARING OPERATION WAS ALLEGEDLY SHOT AT, THE ARMED OFFENDERS SQUAD WAS CALLED IN. WITHIN THE SPACE OF HOURS, FOUR POLICEMEN WOULD BE INJURED AND 28-YEAR-OLD RHYS WARREN WOULD BE LEFT FACING A LENGTHY PRISON SENTENCE. I WAS SCARED, I WAS FRIGHTENED, AND MY LIFE WAS THREATENED, I THOUGHT I WAS GONNA DIE. RHYS TESTIFIED IN COURT THAT THE CANNABIS WASN'T ON HIS PROPERTY AND HE HADN'T SHOT AT THE PLANE; THE ONLY REASON POLICE HAD SURROUNDED THE WHANAU HOMESTEAD WAS BECAUSE RHYS'S BROTHER WILLIAM WAS CONSIDERED A POTENTIAL SUSPECT. WILLIAM WASN'T IN THE HOUSE THAT DAY, BUT RHYS WAS. WE'RE ABOUT A KILOMETRE AWAY FROM THE HOUSE. THIS IS WHERE THE POLICE MASSED ON THE DAY. REMEMBER, THEY WERE HERE BECAUSE SHOTS WERE FIRED NEAR A CANNABIS OPERATION, AND IT WAS HERE THE DECISION WAS MADE TO GO IN ARMED. (SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC) RHYS WARREN SAYS HE WAS ASLEEP IN THE HOUSE AFTER A LONG NIGHT TRAINING HIS PIG DOG. HE SAYS HE WAS UNAWARE OF THE POLICE OPERATION IN THE AREA OR THAT THE AOS OFFICERS WERE STAKING OUT HIS HOME. SO, THEY BROKE THE DOOR DOWN. THE DOOR... FLINGS OPEN. AND AT THIS POINT, WHERE'S YOUR SON? WHERE'S RHYS? THAT'S HIS BEDROOM, AND THIS WOULD'VE BEEN THE SAFEST SPACE, UH, THAT HE WAS, UM,... KNEW, BECAUSE HE WAS AWAY FROM THE WINDOWS, COS HE WOKE TO SMASHING WINDOWS AND A LOUD SPEAKER. HE THOUGHT HE WAS DREAMING. BUT IT WAS NO DREAM. RHYS' MUM, TE ARAROA, SAYS HIS FIRST REACTION TO THE CHAOS WAS TO GRAB THE GUN FROM UNDER HIS DAD'S BED TO PROTECT HIMSELF, AND WHAT FOLLOWED WOULD CHANGE MANY LIVES FOREVER. THE WHANAU CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY TEAR GAS OR POLICE DOGS WEREN'T USED TO CLEAR THE HOUSE. INSTEAD, SIX ARMED OFFICERS STORMED THE FAMILY HOMESTEAD. THE POLICE SAY RHYS FIRED THE FIRST SHOT. IT'S NOW A CRIME SCENE, .AND THE EVIDENCE IS EVERYWHERE ` ON THE WALLS, IN THE FURNITURE, EVEN IN THE BEDDING. YOU SEE HOW THEY CAME THROUGH THE ROOM? YEAH, NOT ONLY THIS CUPBOARD; IT'S THE NEXT CUPBOARD NEXT TO IT. SO WHERE WAS YOUR SON WHEN THESE SHOTS WERE BEING FIRED? WE THINK THAT HE WAS DOWN HERE, AND IT WAS THE TOWELS THAT SAVED HIM. SO THERE'S ALL OUR TOWELS IN THERE. AND IF ANYTHING CAME THROUGH FROM THERE AND IF ANY CAME THAT LOW, HE WOULD'VE BEEN SAVED BY THOSE, BUT HE WAS DEFINITELY FLAT ON THE GROUND, OTHERWISE HE WOULD'VE BEEN KILLED. THERE'S HOLES ALL` RIGHT ALONG HERE INTO MY BEDROOM, HOLES... TE ARAROA AND RHYS' DAD HAD LEFT THE HOME THAT MORNING FOR WORK. SHE COULDN'T HAVE IMAGINED WHAT WOULD BE TAKING PLACE JUST HOURS LATER. 33.44 THIS IS OUR BATHROOM. THEY'VE HAD TO REPLACE THREE PANELS IN HERE. UM,... (DOOR CREAKS) ...THAT PANEL ` ONE, TWO, THREE. AND I'VE PUT THE STICKERS UP, AND THEY CAME ON ANGLE AND DOWN ` MOVING DOWNWAYS, COS THEY'VE SPLATTERED ALL THERE. THE BULLETS CAME THROUGH INTO THE OTHER CUPBOARD NEXT DOOR. LOOKS LIKE YOUR SON RHYS WAS VERY LUCKY TO BE ALIVE. HE WAS VERY LUCKY, YEAH. YEAH. WE THINK THAT HE HAD A KOROWAI ON HIM AND HE WAS MEANT TO LIVE TO TELL HIS STORY. FROM THE TIME POLICE SURROUNDED THEIR PROPERTY, TE ARAROA SAYS IT TOOK MORE THAN THREE HOURS BEFORE SHE OR HER HUSBAND WERE CONTACTED. SHE SAYS IT BREAKS HER HEART WONDERING WHAT DIFFERENCE IT MIGHT HAVE MADE IF THEY'D BEEN CONTACTED EARLIER. I THOUGHT, 'WHY DIDN'T THEY COME AND TALK TO US BEFORE? BEFORE THIS HAPPENED.' IF THEY HAD RUNG US EARLIER, BODGE AND I WOULD'VE COME DOWN HERE TO GET RHYS OUT OF THE HOUSE. IT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN. THE POLICE SHOULD'VE GOT US HERE ` AND THE FAMILY. IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT RHYS WAS NEVER CHARGED WITH ANY OF THE ALLEGED CRIMES THAT LED TO THE SIEGE, AND THIS IS WHAT HIS DEFENCE WAS BASED ON. RHYS WARREN HADN'T DONE ANYTHING. HE HADN'T SHOT AT THE POLICE HELICOPTER. THE CANNABIS WASN'T HIS. IN FACT, THE ONLY THING RHYS WAS GUILTY OF WAS SLEEPING IN. AS ARMED POLICE ENTERED HER HOME, TE ARAROA WAS STRANDED HERE, WITH OTHER WHANAU, AT A POLICE ROAD BLOCK, JUST 2KM AWAY BUT COMPLETELY HELPLESS. ONE POLICEMAN IN PARTICULAR, I FELT HE` A REAL HARD-FACE-LOOKING COP. AND I TRIED TO SAY SOMETHING, AND IT WAS LIKE, 'GET OUT OF MY WAY.' AND HE HOOKED UP HIS GUN` UM, GUNS AND EVERYTHING AND JUST CARRIED ON DOWN THERE. AT THAT MOMENT, I THOUGHT, 'THEY'RE GONNA SHOOT MY SON.' MM, FRIGHTENING. SO WHY DIDN'T RHYS SIMPLY SURRENDER PEACEFULLY ONCE THE AOS ENTERED HIS HOUSE? ACCORDING TO RHYS' FRIEND JESSY, HE FEARED FOR HIS LIFE. THERE'S EITHER TWO THINGS YOU DO, AND THAT'S FIGHT OR FLIGHT, BUT BACKED INTO A CORNER, WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE AN OPTION TO USE THE FLIGHT OPTION, SO,... WELL, IT WAS FIGHT, AND, UH, IT WAS NOT FIGHT IN THAT FACT THAT HE WANTED TO HURT OR KILL ANYBODY; IT WAS FIGHT IN THAT HE HAD TO PRESERVE HIS OWN LIFE. WE BOTH BELIEVE THAT THE POLICE WOULD'VE KILLED HIM. THEY WOULD'VE. THEY WOULD'VE GONE IN THERE AND SHOT HIM. RHYS' FIRST SHOT STRUCK THE LEAD OFFICER'S RIFLE SCOPE, SENDING SHRAPNEL INTO HIM AND THE FACE OF ANOTHER OFFICER, SPLITTING HIS SKULL BONE, CAUSING HAEMORRHAGING AND BRUISING TO HIS BRAIN. HIS SECOND SHOT STRUCK THE DOOR FRAME AND THE LOWER LEG OF ANOTHER OFFICER. A FOURTH OFFICER WAS SHOT IN THE HAND 35M BEHIND THE HOUSE, ALTHOUGH RHYS MAINTAINS HE DIDN'T FIRE THAT BULLET. IF YOU WERE IN HIS SHOES AND YOU SAW THE POLICE SMASHING DOWN YOUR WINDOWS, SMASHING IN THE BACK DOOR, RUNNING IN THE HOUSE WITH GUNS, DRESSED UP IN BLACK AND YOU'RE STILL HALF ASLEEP... HE WAS SCARED. 'COURSE HE WAS SCARED, BUT THE PROSECUTOR MADE OUT THAT RHYS WASN'T SCARED; HE WAS WAITING FOR THEM, TO AMBUSH THEM. YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT AT ALL? HELL, NO. WHY WOULD HE WAIT IN HIS NANNY'S HOUSE TO AMBUSH THEM? IT SHOULD'VE BEEN HANDLED DIFFERENTLY? 'COURSE. THEY MADE A BIG MISTAKE. THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE COME IN, THEY SHOULD'VE MADE SURE TO CONTACT THE FAMILY. FOLLOWING THE SHOOT-OUT, THE POLICE RETREATED, LEAVING RHYS HOLED UP IN THE HOUSE. AFTER A FLURRY OF VIOLENCE, NOW CAME THE WAITING. COMING UP NEXT ` WE EXAMINE THE AFTERMATH OF THE 22-HOUR STANDOFF AND QUESTION THE POLICE HANDLING OF THE SIEGE. THE WHOLE THING WAS MANAGED EXTREMELY WELL. UM, AND THE OUTCOME SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. (TENSE MUSIC) KIA MAU TONU MAI RA, KEI TUA O NGA WHAKATAIRANGA KO TE WAHANGA TUARUA O TERA PURONGO. COMING UP THIS MORNING ` KEI TE MATAKITAKI KOUTOU I TE HUI. 28-YEAR-OLD RHYS WARREN SAYS HE WOKE TO ARMED POLICE RAIDING HIS ONEPU HOME LAST YEAR. FEARING FOR HIS LIFE, HE SAYS HE FIRED TOWARDS THE OFFICERS, INJURING FOUR OF THEM IN THE SHOOT-OUT. THEY QUICKLY RETREATED, LEAVING RHYS WARREN HOLED UP IN HIS HOUSE. THE SO-CALLED KAWARAU SIEGE HAD BEGUN. RHYS HAD ONLY BEEN OUT OF PRISON FOR 18 MONTHS, WHERE HE SERVED A FOUR-YEAR SENTENCE FOR GRIEVOUS BODILY HARM. NOW HE WAS IN TROUBLE AGAIN. HIS WORRIED WHANAU WERE SENDING HIM MESSAGES OF SUPPORT. 'RHYS, ARE YOU ALL RIGHT?' 'HEY, WHAT'S GOING ON?' 'YOU JUST STAY CALM. DON'T DO ANYTHING, UM, ELSE. JUST STAY PUT. 'DON'T MOVE.' UM, 'OK, WE ALL LOVE YOU. 'ARE YOU ALL RIGHT?' AND THEN SOMEBODY ELSE WOULD TEXT , 'YOU ARE MY FAVOURITE COUSIN.' THE WHANAU KNEW THEY COULDN'T CHANGE WHAT HAD HAPPENED BUT WERE DETERMINED TO BRING RHYS OUT ALIVE. THEY ASKED FOR INSPECTOR WARWICK MOREHU, A SENIOR MAORI POLICE OFFICER THEY TRUSTED, TO NEGOTIATE RHYS' SURRENDER. THERE'S HONESTY AND EMPATHY IN THIS CONVERSATION ` A CONNECTION RHYS' WHANAU HAVE NO DOUBT SAVED HIS LIFE. (SOLEMN MUSIC) I WAS ON THAT SIDE OF THE ROAD, AND EVERYONE WAS LINED UP, UH, WHEN HE CAME OUT. (APPLAUSE) MAN: YEAH, BOY! MAN: BOY! IT WAS A GREAT RELIEF THAT HE DIDN'T GET KILLED BY POLICE, UM, SHOOTING ` A GREAT RELIEF. BYE, RHYSIE! LOVE YOU, MY BRO! THE WHOLE THING WAS MANAGED EXTREMELY WELL, AND THE OUTCOME SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. WHAT IT DID SAY LOUD AND CLEAR WAS THAT WARWICK MOREHU SHOULD'VE BEEN BROUGHT IN AT THE START OF THE SIEGE NOT AT THE END. FORMER POLICE OFFICER STEVE ELERS SAYS THE SHOOT-OUT NEVER NEEDED TO HAPPEN. IT WOULD'VE BEEN GOOD IF WE HAD MAORI POLICE, PERHAPS, ENGAGING WITH THE WHANAU, AND GOING, 'HEY, 'HE'S PLAYING UP. UM, IS THERE A PROBLEM?' YOU KNOW? AND THEN SORT IT OUT IN A MAORI WAY RATHER THAN HAVING TO KICK DOWN DOORS AND BRING OUT GUNS. SCARS FROM THE TUHOE RAIDS ARE STILL ETCHED IN THE MINDS OF MANY MAORI FROM THE AREA, AND MISTRUST BETWEEN THESE COMMUNITIES AND THE POLICE STILL LINGERS. SOME SAY THE POLICE STILL HAVEN'T LEARNT FROM THEIR ACTIONS 10 YEARS AGO. IT COULD'VE BEEN RESOLVED EARLIER BY INVOLVING MAORI IWI LIAISON OFFICERS. IN FACT, IT COULD'VE BEEN` TAKE THE CASE OF TAME ITI, WITH THE RUATOKI RAIDS. YOU KNOW, HE SAID THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO COME THROUGH STORMING WITH THEIR GUNS AND THEIR MASKS; THEY COULD'VE JUST RUNG HIM UP OR KNOCKED ON THE DOOR AND HE WOULD'VE OBLIGED, SO... I THINK THIS MENTALITY OF, YOU KNOW, GO IN, GUNS BLAZING, SURE, THERE'S A TIME AND PLACE FOR IT, BUT IF WE CAN GET TO THOSE SITUATIONS BEFORE IT GETS TO THAT EXTENT, IT'S BETTER FOR ALL PARTIES. THOSE 46 SHOTS FROM THOSE TWO AOS OFFICERS SOUNDED LIKE HUNDREDS TO ME. UM, I` (SIGHS) I WAS TIRED, I WAS CAUGHT BY SURPRISE, I WAS SCARED, I WAS FRIGHTENED, AND MY LIFE WAS THREATENED. I THOUGHT I WAS GONNA DIE. WITH A MISTRUST OF POLICE AND THE LEGAL SYSTEM AND HIS BELIEF IN MAORI SOVEREIGNTY, RHYS DEFENDED HIMSELF IN COURT, AT ONE POINT CROSS-EXAMINING THE OFFICER HE WAS ALLEGED TO HAVE SHOT. UH, I HOPE YOU RECOVERED WELL FROM YOUR INJURIES. JESSY ACTED AS RHYS' LEGAL SUPPORT, BUT BECOMING LAWYERS OVERNIGHT AND READING THROUGH ALL THE DOCUMENTS TO PREPARE FOR COURT EACH DAY WAS TOUGH FOR THE PAIR. WE WERE TRYING TO PROVE IN THE COURT THERE THAT RHYS DID NOT FIRE ANY GUNS AT ANY PLANES AND THE CANNABIS WAS NOT ON RHYS' PROPERTY, AND THAT WAS WELL ESTABLISHED IN THE COURT. THERE IS NO PROOF, SO THE REASONS TO THEY COME INTO THE HOUSE IS STILL UNCLEAR. AND EVERY TIME WE WERE TRYING O PULL THAT APART, JUSTICE BREWER WOULD SHUT US DOWN AND TELL US TO TALK ABOUT THE INCIDENT INSIDE THE HOUSE, WHICH IS UNFAIR, BECAUSE, UH, RHYS WAS TRYING TO PAINT THE PICTURE THAT THEY HAD COME INTO THE HOUSE UNLAWFULLY. WHAT RHYS DID GET WAS AN ADMISSION THAT USING A POLICE DOG FOR THE INITIAL ENTRY MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SAFER OPTION THAN THE SIX ARMED OFFICERS. I'M GONNA GET LOCKED UP FOR A LONG TIME, AWAY FROM MY LOVED ONES, FOR CRIMES I DID NOT INTEND TO DO. THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL, RHYS NEVER DENIED FIRING HIS WEAPON BUT SAYS IT WAS AN ACT OF SELF-DEFENCE. THE JURY DISAGREED. HE WAS CONVICTED OF ATTEMPTED MURDER AND NOW AWAITS SENTENCING. GTE YOUR HANDS OFF ME, EH. (INDISTINCT SHOUTING) (INDISTINCT SPEECH) (SOLEMN MUSIC) FOLLOWING ON FROM THEIR ORDEAL INSIDE AND OUT OF THE COURTROOM, RHYS' WHANAU DON'T HOLD MUCH HOPE OUT FOR SENTENCING. 14 YEARS IS THE MAXIMUM FOR SHOOTING AT A POLICEMAN, AND ATTEMPTED MURDER, 14 YEARS. BUT DO YOU KNOW WHAT? UM,... WE'RE PREPARED. AS TE ARAROA TRIES TO MAKE SENSE OF ALL OF THIS, SHE ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE SAME QUESTION ` WHY DIDN'T THE POLICE RING THE WHANAU FIRST? IT DOES MAKE ME VERY SAD. IN FACT, SOMETIMES I WAKE UP IN THE MORNINGS AND I CAN'T GO BACK TO SLEEP COS I'M THINKING ABOUT, 'HOW IS MY SON? IS HE OK?' UH, THE MOST FRUSTRATING PART FOR US IS THAT IT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN. THAT IS THE MAIN THING. IT DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN. WE ASKED IF THE ACCEPTED RHYS WARREN'S ASSERTIONS THAT THE CANNABIS PLANTS WERE NOT HIS AND THAT HE DIDN'T FIRE AT THE POLICE AIRCRAFT. IN A STATEMENT TO THE HUI, PLACE SAY... THEY GO ON TO SAY... AND FINALLY... MAORI MAKE UP 51% OF PRISON NUMBERS BUT ARE JUST 15% OF THE POPULATION. IN AN OPINION PIECE PENNED BY THE SENSIBLE SENTENCING TRUST SPOKESPERSON, GARTH MCVICAR, HE PLACED THE BLAME NOT ON THE GOVERNMENT BUT WITH MAORI. WE WANTED TO EXPLORE THAT KORERO A BIT, UH, WITH HIM, SO WE INVITED HIM ALONG, ALONG WITH ADVOCATE FOR MAORI REHABILITATION SIR PITA SHARPLES. TENA KOURUA. HELLO. TENA KOE. JUST, UH, THE STORY THAT WE JUST SAW ON THERE. THE POLICE COMMISSIONER, MIKE BUSH, SAID IT` IT WAS MANAGED IN AN EXTREMELY GOOD WAY. WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT? DID YOU THINK IT WAS`? WE BOTH WATCHED IT TOGETHER, AND WE THOUGHT AT THE END IT WAS PRETTY HARD TO MAKE A JUDGEMENT ON WHAT HAPPENED THERE, BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS. AND YOU COULD READ IT ONE WAY OR COULD READ IT THE OTHER WAY. IT'S JUST UNFORTUNATE THAT IT WAS` THAT IT HAPPENED. IT WAS A 22-HOUR SIEGE. IN THE END, IT WAS SHUT DOWN BY, UM, INSPECTOR FROM TAUPO AREA, COMMANDER ` I THINK HE'S AREA COMMANDER ` WARWICK MOREHU. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT HIS ROLE IN THAT? OH, I THINK HE DID A GOOD JOB. I REALLY DO. YOU KNOW? TRYING TO` A PEACEFUL SOLUTION. WHY DO YOU THINK HE WAS ABLE TO TALK HIM OUT? I THINK PROBABLY THE EXPERIENCE ALONE THAT HE HAS, UM, IN THAT PARTICULAR AREA AND THOSE PEOPLE, AND HE WAS ABLE TO COMMUNICATE. BECAUSE HE'S MAORI OR HE HAS AN UNDERSTANDING OF THAT COMMUNITY? I THINK PROBABLY, UH, HIS UNDERSTANDING, I THINK, OF THE ISSUES, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T GET TO HIS ROLE IN THE POLICE AND NOT HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE ISSUES, SO I THINK` YET NO ONE IN` NONE OF THE OTHERS WERE ABLE TO DO THE SAME JOB AS HE WAS. I THINK IT WAS COS HE WAS MAORI AND ABLE TO RELATE ON THAT LEVEL. THE REASON I'M ASKING THAT QUESTION IS COS YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN MAORI SOLUTIONS FOR MAORI PROBLEMS. THAT LOOKED LIKE THAT WAS A EXCELLENT WAY` EXCELLENT SOLUTION TO THAT SITUATION. WOULD`? YOU'RE BACKING MAORI PRISONS, UM, THERE, SIR PITA? TOTALLY. TELL US WHY. HOW DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD REDUCE` WELL, YOU KNOW, I STARTED WORK IN PRISONS WHEN PAREMOREMO WAS JUST OPENED, AND I SAW HOW THINGS MAORI WERE NOT` HAD NO COGNISANCE TAKEN OF THEM, AND` AND THEN THROUGH THE YEARS, AS A MINISTER, I CREATED THE WHARE ORANGA AKE, WHICH IS A PRISON OUTSIDE THE WIRE FOR PEOPLE FINISHING THEIR TERMS, TO ALLOW THEM TO ADJUST TO SOCIETY AND GET A JOB AND, UH, LEARN HOW TO BANK AND` AND FEEL FREE, COS THAT'S THE HARDEST PART IS FOR THEM TO FEEL FREE, SO, UM, BECAUSE OF THAT ` UH, THAT'S BEEN MY BACKGROUND ` I JUST FEEL THAT PRISONS ARE` THERE'S TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THERE, FOR A START, OF ANY KIND ` HUNDREDS FOR JUST TRAFFIC OFFENCES. UM, BUT, AS FAR AS MAORI ARE CONCERNED, I JUST THINK THAT, UM, WELL, YOU KNOW, EVERY YEAR YOU READ THE SAME REPORTS THAT MAORI ARE MOST LIKELY TO BE TAKEN AND MOST LIKELY TO BE, UH, QUESTIONED, MOST LIKELY TO RECEIVE SOME PAYMENT ` MORE THAN PAKEHA. AND YOU CAN'T DENY THOSE FACTS. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS WITH THAT, UM, GARTH? BECAUSE WOULD YOU` YOU KNOW, WOULD YOU SUPPORT THAT IDEA OF HAVING A PRISON FOR MAORI ONLY? NO, I'M PRETTY` I'M PRETTY ALARMED AT THAT PROPOSAL, REALISTICALLY. I MEAN, AT PRESENT, THE AVERAGE OFFENDER IN PRISON HAS BETWEEN SEVEN AND 17 OFFENCES, SO PRISONS AREN'T BEING USED LIGHTLY AT PRESENT. IT'S PRETTY DIFFICULT TO ACTUALLY GET TO PRISON. AND IT ALARMS BE THAT WE'RE STARTING TO POINT THE FINGER AT CORRECTIONS, COS, YOU KNOW, A CHILD IS BROUGHT INTO THIS WORLD BY TWO PEOPLE, AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO START ABDICATING THAT RESPONSIBILITY TO CORRECTIONS. IF WE GO DOWN THAT ROAD, WHERE ON EARTH DO WE STOP? AND THIS IS WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM IN TERMS OF IT'S PARENTS` YOU KNOW, IT'S UP TO THE PARENTS, NOT THE CORRECTIONS, NOT THE POLICE, NOT THE SYSTEM. I LOOK AT THE BIGGER WORLD, AND THE SYSTEM THAT WORKS BEST FOR BRINGING A CHILD INTO THE WORLD AND MAKING IT A LAW-ABIDING CHILD IS MUM AND DAD ` GOOD MUM AND DAD. YOU KNOW? UH, KIDS ` BOYS LIKE ME AND PROBABLY PITA ` PUSHED THE BOUNDARIES, WE DID, BUT MUM AND DADS PUT US BACK ON THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW. I THINK IT'S A SAD, SAD DAY IF WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO PUT THAT RESPONSIBILITY ON CORRECTIONS. SURELY, IF WE'RE GOING TO GET A CHILD ON THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW, IT SHOULD BE DONE BEFORE YOU GO TO` COS I` I WANNA BRING SOMETHING UP WITH YOU, COS RECENTLY WE DID A STORY ON FOUR FORMER STATE WARDS WHO, UM, AS YOUNG MEN, WERE TAKEN INTO STATE, WHERE THEY LEARNT TO BE VIOLENT, WHERE THEY WERE ABUSED, AND THEY ALL GRADUATED FROM KOHITERE INTO PRISON. WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT? OH, AS I SAY, YOU GO BACK TO` YOU'VE GOTTA GO BACK TO THE PARENTS` BUT HANG ON. WHO WERE THEIR PARENTS? IT WAS THE STATE. NO. THAT'S THE` THAT'S THE PROBLEM, ISN'T IT? WHEN WE'RE EXPECTING THE STATE` THEY'RE PUT INTO STATE CARE, AND IT'S STILL, AND` ...THEY'RE WORSE. THE STATE CAN'T BE A SURROGATE PARENT. NEITHER CAN CORRECTIONS. SO WHO TAUGHT THEM TO BE VIOLENT? WHO TAUGHT THEM? WHO GRADUATE`? WHO TAUGHT THEM ALL THOSE THINGS? SO, WE KEEP GOING DOWN THAT AND MAKING MORE AND MORE EXCUSES... PRISONS ARE VIOLENT, LET'S BE HONEST. ...AND PRODUCING MORE AND MORE OF THAT. NO. BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. YOU CAN'T SAY THAT PARENTS ARE RESPONSIBLE AND THEN` CAN YOU HAVE IT BOTH WAYS? PARENTS ARE RESPONSIBLE, BUT WHEN THEY'RE PUT INTO STATE CARE, THEN IT'S STILL THE PARENT, NOT THE STATE, PITA? PRISONS ARE VIOLENT. THERE'S, UH` I MEAN, RIGHT NOW, YOU'VE GOT MAORI... TOO MANY MAORI IN PRISON. BUT WHO'S LOOKING AFTER THEM AND PUSHING THE ENVELOPE AT THE DOOR EVERY DAY? UH, SOUTH AFRICANS ` WHITES AND BLACKS ` COME OVER HERE, AND THEY'VE GOT THIS SORT OF, UH, COLD WAR GOING ON IN THERE BETWEEN THEM. I MEAN, THAT'S RIDICULOUS, ISN'T IT? AND THAT'S WHY, IF YOU` THIS WHARE ORANGA AKE THAT WE'VE CREATED IS OUTSIDE THE WIRE, NOBODY'S ESCAPED, PEOPLE HAVE GOT JOBS AND THINGS LIKE THIS. I MEAN, IT JUST SHOWS WHAT CAN BE DONE IF YOU USE THE CULTURE THAT THE GUYS BELONG TO. NOW, OK, I ADMIT SOME OF THE PARENTS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN UP TO IT, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT, UH, THE SOCIOECONOMICS OF MAORI IN NEW ZEALAND` UH, YOU CAN'T SPEAK A WORD OF MAORI. I MEAN, WHY NOT? THAT'S THE NATIVE LANGUAGE OF THIS COUNTRY. I MEAN, YOU` YOU OWE NOTHING TO MAORI, AND MAORI ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR LANGUAGE, THEY'RE FIGHTING FOR THEIR PLACE IN THE SUN AND THINGS LIKE THIS, AND TO HERA YOU SAYING, 'OH, BAD MOTHERS, BAD FATHERS,'... ABSOLUTELY. ...WELL, YOU'RE NARROW-MINDED, GARTH. CORRECTIONS ARE DOING A VERY GOOD JOB AT REHABILITATING PEOPLE IN PRISON. IT IS WHEN THEY'RE RELEASED THAT THERE'S NO WRAPAROUND SUPPORT FOR THEM. THEY'RE NOT` THEY'RE NOT DOING A VERY GOOD JOB REHABILITATING MAORI` THEY ARE. ...BECAUSE THEY'RE REOFFENDING AT A HIGHER RATE ` SOMETHING LIKE 63%. ABSOLUTELY. THAT IS BECAUSE ONCE THEY` CORRECTIONS CAN'T BE RESPONSIBLE ONCE YOU OPEN THE` OPEN THE DOOR, OPEN THE GATE, SURELY. NO, BUT YOU'VE GOT` BUT SURELY THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY'RE PROVIDING FOR THEM ON THE INSIDE. AS I SAID, THEY'RE DOING QUITE A GOOD JOB. IF YOU GO THROUGH THE VARIOUS` CLEARLY THEY'RE NOT,... ...PROGRAMMES THAT ARE AVAILABLE IN PRISON` ...BECAUSE IT'S 63% REOFFENDING RATE IN TWO YEARS. WHEN THEY GET OUT, THEY QUICKLY GET DRAGGED BACK INTO THE GANG CULTURE. NOT ALL OF THEM. AND` NO, NOT ALL, ADMITTEDLY. THEY QUICKLY GET DRAGGED BACK INTO THE GANG CULTURE. PITA'S ON RECORD AS SAYING GANGS ARE JUST ANOTHER WHANAU. SO IS TARIANA TURIA. GANGS ARE DESTROYING OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. IF YOU DON'T ACCEPT THAT` NO, THAT'S A DISTORTION. IF WE'RE GONNA ACCEPT THEM AS ANOTHER YOUNG` GARTH, I DIDN'T SAY THAT. ...UH, AS A WHANAU, WE HAVE A MASSIVE PROBLEM. MASSIVE PROBLEM. OK. DRUGS, EVERYTHING ELSE. I JUST WANNA READ SOMETHING ELSE BACK TO YOU, BECAUSE YOU ALSO SAID` YOU SAID THAT, 'SADLY, IN MANY MAORI HOMES, TRYING TO SUCCEED AT SCHOOL IS DERIDED AS ACTING WHITE 'AND ACTIVELY DISENCOURAGED.' WHEN YOU WERE SITTING YOUR M.A. AND YOUR PHD, WERE YOU BEING A LITTLE BIT WHITE? UM, I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK I WAS BEING PRETTY MAORI. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? YOU KNOW? BECAUSE YOU` I GOT A FIRST-CLASS M.A., BY THE WAY, GARTH. HE'S SOMEONE WHO'S GOT A WHOLE LOT OF DEGREES, AND, UM, HE DIDN'T DO THEM ACTING WHITE. UH, YET YOU PUT EVERYONE INTO THE SAME BASKET. DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. WHAT PITA'S DONE ` FANTASTIC. HE'S ACHIEVED, AND HE'S AN ADVOCATE OUT THERE. FANTA` DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. BUT ULTIMATELY, EDUCATION SEEMS TO BE THE WAY FORWARD FOR ALL OUR KIDS. WHETHER IT'S BLACK, WHITE, YELLOW, IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER. EDUCATION IS THE WAY FORWARD. I MEAN, I WAS BROUGHT UP IN A VERY POOR FAMILY,... AND YET` ...BUT I WAS EDUCATED. AND YET MAORI ARE FAILING IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AS WELL. YEP, ABSOLUTELY. BUT IS THERE`? ARE WE BLAMING... PARENTS' FAULT AGAIN? ...THE EDUCATION SYSTEM FOR THAT? ARE WE GONNA BLAME LIKE WE'RE BLAMING CORRECTIONS? ARE WE? YOU TELL ME. WELL, IT SEEMS LIKE WE ARE. GARTH. I STRUGGLE WITH THAT. THE PEOPLE IN CORRECTIONS DON'T GET REHABILITATED. IF THEY GET REHABILITATED, IT'S BECAUSE OF OTHER FACTORS. COS THEY DON'T PROVIDE FOR REHABILITATION IN PRISON. THEY MIGHT DO A DRUG PROGRAMME OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YOU GO INTO THE PRISONS` YOU GO INTO THE PRISONS PROBABLY MORE THAN ME. AND THE INDIVIDUAL PROGRAMMES ARE CHURNING OUT DIFFERENT RESULTS. SOME OF THE PROGRAMMES ARE TURNING OUT FANTASTIC RESULTS, BUT EVEN THOSE` NAME ONE. EVEN THOSE ONES THAT ARE` NAME ONE. EVEN THOSE ONES THAT ARE, ONCE THE DOOR IS RELEASED` CAN YOU NAME ONE? CAN YOU NAME ONE? CAN YOU NAME ONE? YEP, KOHANGA` UM, SORRY. NO, SORRY, I STRUGGLE. YEAH. OK. OK. WE'RE JUST GONNA HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE, COS WE'VE ABSOLUTELY RUN OUT OF TIME, BUT I JUST WANT TO SAY THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON, AND I APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT YOU GOT UP AT 4.30 AND DROVE ALL THE WAY UP HERE. TA PITA, NGA MIHI NUI KI A KOE. TENA KOE. TENA KOE. 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