(FUNKY MUSIC) Tonight ` Hello. How are you? ...there's trouble abroad. It was quite terrifying, actually, when it happened. She fell down some stairs and broke her leg. Basically, it snapped. But Sarah's leg isn't covered by insurance; it's baggage. Do you think of your legs as baggage? No. And... they're lean, mean, fitness machines. I love helping people. So I thought I would take on a personal training course. But these trainee trainers have been given the run-around by Fitlink. Honestly, it was almost on the verge of violation. And I really just don't know how they can sleep at night. Plus, you'll be amazed what gets flushed down the dunny. We have, on occasions, had people ring up and ask us to keep an eye out for their dentures. But are flushable wipes really be flushable? It says on the front here 'disperses quickly'. Is that dispersing quickly? Copyright Able 2017 Welcome to the show. We lead tonight with an SOS from the other side of the world. Picture this ` you're on your big OE, you've got travel insurance, and you break a leg and get told, 'Sorry, your leg isn't covered; it's baggage.' Curious? We certainly were. Here's Garth. Hello. How are you? Hi! Good. How are you? When you're far from home, nothing beats hearing from Mum. What have you been up to today? I went to UNICEF. We had the Committee on the Rights of the Child. Sarah is studying in Switzerland, at the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights. So you're a bit tired now? Yeah. Louise works back at home in Gisborne, helping her daughter with the high cost of realising their dreams. When she does things, she does it with her whole heart. You know, she sets a goal, and that's what she's gonna do, and she does it. But Sarah's determination has been tested these past six weeks. I was travelling around Europe with my class, and I had a fall down some concrete stairs, and the way that I fell, it put all of my weight and pressure through the join between the socket and the knee, and basically, it snapped. If it sounds excruciating,... It was quite terrifying, actually, when it happened. I bet! ...we need to tell you the leg she broke isn't the one Sarah was born with. But it is still her leg ` her prosthetic leg. I wasn't hurt badly, and I was with some friends Half a world away, Mum was calm. She'd taken out cover on Sarah's behalf with Southern Cross Travel Insurance. But when she called to warn a big bill was coming, Southern Cross told her... Her prosthesis is only covered till $1500. It's considered baggage, and we hadn't declared it as a specified item. You heard right ` baggage. When they said that, what did you think? It's an insult. Her limbs are part of her. They're with her whenever she's awake. She can't... She can't function without them, unless she's in a wheelchair, which she very seldom is in, and she can't really manage competently by herself, because she has only one hand. Sarah was born with three deformed limbs, but that didn't stop her. The first time she spoke, she told mum... 'I can do it myself.' That's what she said. She kept up with her brother, helped by friends and family, who treated her just like any other Kiwi kid. Which might explain the shock Louise got, trying to deal with the insurance company. To suggest... that something that belongs to her, that essentially is a part of her, is baggage, I find actually quite insulting... and distressing. Southern Cross says at no time did staff directly refer to Sarah's prosthesis as 'baggage', but they did explain it would be covered under the Baggage and Personal Items section of the policy and not as a medical event. They were nice. You know, and they say, 'Yeah, we understand where you're coming from. 'It's something we should maybe address. 'It's just how it is, and there's no discussion about it.' Louise says that was the tone in three calls to Southern Cross ` one to a supervisor who also emailed her. To her, the policy started sounding a lot like discrimination. What happens if I was over there and I broke my leg? They're gonna pay for it, with no discussion, you know. That's what the insurance covers. So why is a prosthetic not the same? It's her leg. If this had happened here at home, different story. The Artificial Limb Service looks after 4500 amputees. A new leg takes days to build, fit and check. (CLICK! CLICK!) The parts are highly engineered. Our taxes cover the lot. Sarah has never had to worry about the cost... until now. This is a prosthetic leg much like the one that Sarah damaged, and it was a beauty of a break ` perhaps $3000 to repair the damage, maybe $8000 to replace the whole leg, they tell me here. But far from home, with Southern Cross saying it would pay no more than $1500, Sarah was anxiously awaiting a bill which would surely cost her more. Would I have to come back to New Zealand to get it fixed? Would I have to send my leg back to New Zealand? How long would this take? Louise and Sarah are used to hurdles and to getting on. How would Sarah handle something this? She goes around? No, no. No, she'll get over it. Southern Cross was telling her the hurdle here was disclosure, or what you need to tell the insurer when you take out the policy. No disclosure, no cover. The Fair Insurance Code says for travel insurance, you need to disclose... Louise had done that when she signed up online. And then it came up no further questions, so we assumed that the prosthetics would be covered under a medical condition. Southern Cross Travel Insurance's standard policy wording says nothing about prosthetics. If something is not expressly excluded, there's often an assumption that's its implicitly included. Despite her honours in Law from Waikato and the international human rights training she's getting now, Sarah is still at a loss. Do you think of your legs as baggage? No. Sorry if that seems like a rude question. It probably does, but` No, no, I totally understand what you mean. I use them for my mobility. I'm in them more often than I'm not in them, and they're a part of my identity and a part of my independence, and I found that very obvious this last month, where I've been so reliant on my wheelchair and so reliant on other people. And it was really the first time that something major has happened to my leg and my mum hasn't been around. The ultimate insurance cover, right? (LAUGHS) Exactly! Laughter may be the best medicine, but for fast results, get Fair Go involved. Within 36 hours, Southern Cross was ready to apologise and admit it had got this wrong from the start. Louise had made a reasonable assumption Sarah's limbs were covered after she disclosed her conditions. Southern Cross is reviewing its policies and forms to make it clearer how artificial limbs are covered. And best of all, Sarah's accident was a medical event, with full cover that will continue. I'm just over the moon, and, yeah, Sarah can just now stay there, knowing that if anything does happen, Southern Cross are there to cover whatever she needs. So, yeah, it's just really, really good. So, here's a tip for life ` you should treat your wife like you treat your insurance company ` full disclosure, all times, up front. Cos if something goes wrong, they're gonna find out anyway. (CHUCKLES) So just tell 'em straight away. I think that is good advice. It is also a great outcome for Sarah. Coming up after the break ` there's a fight brewing over student fees. I love helping people. So I thought I would take on a personal training course. But these trainee trainers are getting a right royal run-around,... Honestly, it is almost on the verge of violation. And... We have a real flush-and-forget culture. Are these wipes wrecking our pipes? Flushable wipes ` should they be flushed? Yes. * Welcome back. Education is supposed to be the fast-track to getting ahead in life. But a career-making opportunity has left some students feeling like they are getting the run-around. Here's Hannah. (THOUGHTFUL MUSIC) These three had dreams ` big dreams. I wanted to be setting up women's boot camps. I thought i would take on a personal training course and see where I got. I love helping people; I love seeing people excited about different things, especially in fitness. They shared those dreams, and a dollop of cash... It's approximately $1400. $660.68. I've paid about $440. ...with this company ` Fitlink ` which offered online training courses for fitness professionals. I originally signed up with Fitlink because they were a REPs-accredited institution. REPs - Registered Exercise Professionals. It would allow me to be able to work anywhere I wanted, knowing that I had the right qualifications. But in October of last year, Fitlink went belly-up, the receiver was called in, and the students got an email from Debit Success, the company which took payments from them on behalf of Fitlink. The email said its contract with Fitlink was done and dusted. We've received emails saying, 'At the moment we can't service our students 'because all assets have been frozen.' It was just four months of really, really hard work... taken right out from underneath me. Dozens of students, like Samantha, Shelby and Braden, were caught out, spending thousands of dollars. Students like Stuart and Jamee invested hundreds of hours of work. There are over 130 other people around the country that are going through the same thing. These three believe their contracts finished when Fitlink went into receivership. But then the company re-emerged after what had apparently been an ownership dispute. The new Fitlink said it's back to business as usual. Only, the students disagreed. Before they went into liquidation, they were REPs accredited, which meant we were automatically recognised by REPs as qualified personal trainers. When they went into liquidation, they lost that. I had no interest in continuing with them once they lost their accreditation. If they didn't have REPs accreditation, I wouldn't have signed with them. So Stana, Peta and Jamee wanted out of their contracts. Their direct debits to Fitlink had stopped when Debit Success cut its ties with Fitlink. But then money started going out of their bank accounts again ` this time via another company, Flo2Cash ` a company they hadn't signed up with! I haven't OK'd them; I haven't signed anything for them to be able to take money out of the bank. It's quite scary to know that that happened without myself knowing or the bank letting me know as well. They tried to put a stop on the payments, with varying success. They told me that Flo2Cash shouldn't have been able to load any payments cos I hadn't given them an authority to withdraw money on my account. It seems really wrong ` morally wrong, unfair. Oh, honestly, it was almost on the verge of violation. Peta got some unusual advice. So your bank actually suggested you cancel your bank account? Yeah. What, as the only way of stopping this happening? Pretty much. Well, doesn't that seem ridiculous? It was quite ridiculous, and it's quite concerning. What happened next was Fitlink sent in the debt collectors. I'm being chased for $2700 in course fees, and $1100 in debt collection fees. They say I still owe them about $2700. $4612. Other students, like Wade Pope and Iron Maiden wanted out of their contracts. Some, like Sheree and Simon, hadn't paid much yet but were now being chased to stay with Fitlink and continue paying fees. It's pretty frightening It is, and, look, I think anybody who's had any brush with the debt collection industry will understand that the first letter is usually quite a threatening one. I mean, you would` you'd think you're heading straight into bankruptcy if you got a note like that. So can the students terminate their contracts? Well, Niamh reckons yes. She says what's now offered by Fitlink is different from what the students signed up for. There are certainly positive representations that are made in the contract to say that you will be recognised as a REPs ` as a fully qualified personal trainer. That's a big statement, and they need to stand behind it, and it appears that they're unable to do that. So that would certainly provide very strong grounds to be able to terminate the contract. Niamh says any students contesting their Fitlink contracts should put it in writing to Fitlink, saying why they want out, give written instructions to stop direct debit payments, notify the bank, Flo2Cash and Fitlink, and don't ignore the debt collectors. Tell them ` again in writing ` that the debt is contested. And then... Get on to the Disputes Tribunal website, pull down one of those forms and lodge that claim. I would be very surprised if they weren't very successful, and I'd encourage everybody to go in that forum. It's still a mystery how the new company, Flo2Cash was able to just take over payments after the Debit Success arrangement had been terminated So if you sign up with me, I can't then send it over to somebody else and say take money from your account. We went right to the top for confirmation of that. If you terminate the direct debit authority, then that can't be reactivated without your express authority. So if any further payments are made, they are effectively unauthorised, unless the customer has subsequently given a new permission, or a new authority. But again, cancelling the direct debit is not the end of it. So if you cancel a direct debit, you are cancelling the payment method. It does not cancel the underlying contract between the bank customer and the service provider, or the initiator. So it's really important to be aware that you are simply cancelling a means of payment; you're not cancelling the underlying contract. Which means these three still have a fight on their hands with Fitlink. I want Fitlink to refund my course, cancel my course and contract and stop hassling me. I don't want to study with you any more. These are my reasons why. You've breached this; I want out. And I really just don't know how they can sleep at night. So what's Fitlink got to say about all this? They reckon they've got a thousand happy students on their books. But we wanted to talk to them about the 50 or so unhappy students who say Fitlink has been a terrible communicator. Yeah, and we don't believe that's true. I hope that students aren't feeling that, because we've done our best to communicate with them. They do admit the dispute over the company ownership has caused problems. I talked to (SIGHS) multiple students, countless students during that time, and they were very confused. People were posing as Fitlink that were no longer Fitlink, putting incorrect information out into the marketplace, if you want to say, which confused students. Fitlink says they can get their students REPs accreditation. Though there's nothing on the website. If I was a student, I'd go on that website to look to see who is and who isn't REPs recognised, and you guys aren't on it. And that's` And that's correct, we aren't registered any more. We are working on a... a... multiple of pathways now as a business to... fulfil the qualifications that REP will need so that we can get back on their website. Fitlink says Flo2Cash was legitimately able to take money out of students' accounts on Fitlink's behalf because... The direct debit request in the contract was with Fitlink. Even though this says 'Debit Success contract', not 'Fitlink contract', Angela insists... The direct debit request was a Fitlink direct debit request. And what about these heavy-handed debt collection letters? I've paid tutors, I've` I've paid for resources and facilities so that I can provide service. So, because 50, 80 people have changed their mind, why should over 1000 students suffer? You know, the student is no longer communicating with us. But is the way of getting them to do that to frighten them into it? No. The` To bully them into it? No, that's` that's not the case at all. Priority absolutely is our students. And we ask them to call the office, have a` have a conversation with us, and we'll deal with it on a case-by-case basis. For those of you who are having issues with Fitlink, Niamh's advice ` try the Disputes Tribunal. Okey-dokey, coming up after the break ` are you a serial clogger? We have a real flush-and-forget culture. Toilets are designed to get rid of... Poos, wees, toilet paper. But what about these things? It says on the front here 'disperses quickly'. Is that dispersing quickly? * Welcome back. Are you flushing wipes down your pipes? Mm, it's touted as an alternative to toilet paper. But is there really such a thing as flushable wipes? Ooh, now, bit of a warning ` you might wanna put dinner just to one side, just for a moment, cos this is a story that's dealing with toilets and what goes down them. (CRUISY MUSIC) Palmerston North's Jim Burke isn't exactly under the thumb, but he knows that if he makes a sandwich,... Corned beef sandwich is a corned beef sandwich, with a bit of mustard. That's it. ...he definitely has to wipe afterwards. Well, I don't have much choice but be handy around the home, because my partner still works. He uses a cloth, but his partner found something else. She was most excited to tell me the other day that she found these flushable wipes that was quite acceptable to flush down the toilet. Jim was curious. I read the packet, and it said 'new and improved, disperses up to six times faster'. 'Dissolvable' ` that was the one word that was missing off there. So Jim had a plan. He got two buckets, put toilet paper in one and a flushable wipe in another. He made notes. His partner started worrying. She thought i was being a stirrer. Watch your shoes there. Here's his results. The toilet paper ` Just about completely dissolved. The wipe? Hasn't changed in the three days that I've put it in the bucket of water. Now, just a wee refresher ` these are the Sorbent Silky White flushable wipes. And it says on front here, 'disperses quickly'. 'Disperse'. See, that's an interesting word, cos here's the wipe after three days. Is that dispersing quickly? I'll let you decide at home. So Jim got busy. Hi. It's Jim Burke. I... He rang Sorbent's customer help line. Jim says they told him their product was independently tested and was flushable. He replied... I did a few independent tests myself and discovered that your product doesn't dissolve. He says when it comes to flushing flushable wipes... Don't, because it's gonna cause a problem for somebody somewhere. That 'someone somewhere' is here. So, this is the milli-screen building. The milli-screen building was built by the New Plymouth District Council specifically to get rid of the things we flush down our toilet. We've had empty Coke bottles come through, toy cars, jandals. David Langford is in charge. We have, on occasions, had people ring up and ask us to keep an eye out for their dentures. Those milli-screens stop foreign objects ruining their system. Each of these screens costs about $250,000 to buy. We've got three of them here; we've got another seven across the district. The wipes, sanitary products and anything else that goes down your toilet gets put here and then disposed of in the dump. It's a costly exercise. Just filtering the rubbish out of the system and transporting to the landfill and paying to dispose of it, that costs up to $500,000 a year, just for New Plymouth. If you multiply that across the whole country, we as a nation are spending a huge amount of money just because we are too lazy to put the wipes in the bin instead of down the toilet. David says only three things should go down the toilet. Poos, wees, toilet paper. We have a real flush-and-forget culture ` once it's out of sight, it's out of mind and it's somebody else's problem. My skin's crawling a little bit even just standing next to you, so you must've showered for so long after doing that story. I've had a bit of a wash. Yeah, had a bit of a wash. Now, look, the supermarket shelves are laden with wipes claiming to be biodegradable, dispersible and safe to flush. But are they really? Time to turn the Jones household into a lab for some unscientific, independent consumer testing. (FUN, UPBEAT MUSIC) We were curious about Jim's flushable-wipe test, so we bought as many as we could. You can put one in each one. The kids helped out. We'll get to the results soon, but first, a quick historical tour of flushable wipes. That hasn't really broken up. Not really. Three years ago, Pippa started testing them. Two years ago, Consumer New Zealand whizzed them around for over an hour. Only toilet paper broke down. Which brings us to Katherine Rich from the New Zealand Food and Grocery Council, which represents many flushable-wipes companies. Uh, flushable wipes ` should they be flushed? Yes. Yes, they have been tested to meet international standards, and in New Zealand, there is a requirement that all labelling is truthful and accurate, and so in terms of the flushability of wipes, to say they are flushable, I think you can trust that. So you can see the problem that the consumer has, because you've got the councils saying that flushable wipes shouldn't be flushed. They have purposely chosen a very simple message, and we support the sentiment of that message, but in terms of flushable wipes, we think they're OK. Katherine says they toured Watercare in Auckland and found many wipes caught in the sewer weren't flushable. About 90 of the 150-odd wipes that were extracted out of the sewer system were actually commercial wipes. Most of the wipe companies say they meet international standards ` THE problem being those international standards are formulated by the wipe industry and condemned by the Water Environment Federation, of which Auckland and Wellington councils are members. They say flushable wipes should be labelled 'do not flush'. Katherine Rich sees things differently. As I said, we completely understand their frustration and the sentiments of their campaign, but I think they've purposely chosen a very simple message. And so when it comes to the products that we are talking about today, they have met international standards. After two weeks, my own unscientific independent test has come to an end. That has big bits. The silk flushable wipes broke down the best; some softened. Feels like it's soft. The others remained intact. And as for Jim in Palmerston North, he's recycling. Like a tea bag, I'll dry it out and use it again. Then he says he'll put it in the bin, not the toilet. Flushable wipes ` I've been studying the packets quite a lot, and they talk about starting with paper and then kind of using the wipe as, like, a finisher? Ohh! Oh, sorry about the hand movements! But anyway, in the Jones household` Is that a thing, using wipes? You know what, I think you've just overstepped a mark here. All I would say is just be mindful of the environment. Yeah, that's better advice. Now, Jim ` he tested a Sorbent wipe, and Sorbent says their flushable wipes are made from a material that is flushable, dispersible and bio-degradable. They've independently tested, and their wipes pass through well-maintained domestic sewerage and septic systems without causing blockages or clogging. They also note the wipes pass international standards for flushability. Those are the standards, of course, that the international water industry says aren't good enough. So that's the show tonight, but we will be on Facebook for the next half hour to answer your questions. Cos our programme is always about your concerns, your thoughts, your grumbles, so we're here to listen. Please do contact us. Join us on Facebook, or you can email us... Or write to us... That's our show. Until` not next week ` cos that's a holiday ` the week after, we'll see you then. BOTH: Goodnight.