Good morning and welcome to The Nation. I'm Lisa Owen. Today, is Shane Jones the future of New Zealand First? You will get no change until you vote for both Winston, I and our colleagues because there's no point being back in politics, folks, unless you're going to make a meaningful, widespread difference. The new candidate for Whangarei joins me to talk about why he's back in politics and what he hopes to achieve. I'll ask education minister Nikki Kaye whether we're building enough classrooms and if we should be expanding technology teaching or just sticking to the basics. Then why this woman spent more than 40 years in state-run psychiatric care when doctors say there was nothing wrong with her. I knew all the time I shouldn't have been in there. You can remember people you have failed more than people you have helped. Why an apology and compensation isn't enough for Alison. And we wrap up the week with our panel ` Guyon Espiner, Julia Whaipooti and Matthew Hooton, and comedians Jeremy Corbett and Paul Ego. It's great to have you with us today. We always want to hear your view, so get in touch. Our details are on screen now. And if you're on twitter, follow along with our panel ` RNZ's Laura Tupou and education activist Dianne Khan on #NationNZ. Finally, one of the worst-kept secrets of New Zealand politics is out. Shane Jones will stand for New Zealand First in Whangarei. I'm sure you're all surprised (!) His return to politics has been talked about ever since he left in 2014. But he'll have a tough fight in the long-time safe National seat where Shane Reti holds a healthy majority. Shane Jones joins me now. Kia ora. Kia ora. If you are the answer, what was the question? Well, without a doubt, our area, the Northland, in particular, Whangarei, has been taken for granted by the current regime. I think with my arrival, I'll certainly set the contest alight. My upbringing resonates with a lot of Whangarei people born and bred in the north on the farm. Did well educationally, but my roots are in the north, and that's exactly what's being sought ` a home-grown champion who is not afraid to take on vested interests. So what was Shane Veti's majority last time up? Look, I don't have any illusions how big a challenge it's going to be. I take some inspiration from Brian Donnelly in the mid-'90s when he come within 200 votes of winning that seat. Me old buddy, David Shearer, without probably breaking a sweat got 10,000 to 11,000 votes. So I'm going to prove my critics wrong that I was a bit dilatory when I campaigned for Labour. I'm going to prove them wrong. There's not a pavement, not a road or a household or a business that I will not pay attention to to win this seat. Mm. Cos how many electorates have you stood in before and how many have you won? When Helen and I did the deal and I joined Labour, I stood against John Carter. Then I stood a second time in Northland. Then I stood against Dr Sharples... So you're zero for three in electorates. Yeah, well, they were tough electorates, but, hey, the reality is the election's in 90 days... So is this one, though, isn't it? This one is a tough electorate too, isn't it? 13,000 majority. There's two elements. It's going to be a tough election and it's a tough electorate, but I'm no shrinking violet. I'm a tough character. I've got a lot of passion. I know how to resonate with people. And, sure, from time to time, some of my remarks might be a bit injudicious, but they'll be a few cultural haematomas going through this election because some of the issues we're going to touch on, people may feel awkward about them. To claw back those numbers, you're going to have to appeal to a broad range of people, so how are you going to do that? Cos you're going to have to take votes from everyone, aren't you? Yeah, well, we'll find votes when we talk about issues that are relevant to the garden-variety family in Whangarei. And what are those issues? They're about jobs, they're about industry. They're about quality of life. But there's also the issue that no one is showing political will to take on in the north. And that is the growth of Marco criminality ` the power that the gangs have. The power that they have to spread menace amongst God-fearing ordinary Kiwi families. And they prey on their own. And that's one issue I'm not going to take a backward step on. Well, you've brought that up. So, Hone Harawira has taken a hard line. He says that you should execute Chinese drug smugglers. Are you with him on that? Yeah, well, Hone destroyed his career by associating with a fat German, and he's running the prospects of ruining what's left of his career by associating with the leader of the Philippines. So park that up because he's making himself irrelevant. I really think that something akin to a special prosecutor's office, almost a Kiwi-type of Eliot Ness is needed to follow the money and really bring the force of the State to smash what is organised crime. Make no mistake, the people that are being killed, the people that are being jailed throughout the north, are profiting and they're totally attracted to enormous amounts of filthy lucre from the drug trade. And they are approaching proportions of Marco criminality. Make no mistake about that. OWEN: All right. So are you in this for the long haul or are you just going to stay until you get bored or maybe don't get the leadership? No. I enjoyed my three years up in the Pacific, notwithstanding a bout of dengue fever. I had an option to continue within that creed. But I've got a passion and I've had a thirst to come back to politics. And, look, this is the second chance that I've been given through New Zealand First. I guess with the admonishment, 'Don't make the mistakes of the first time round.' What were the mistakes that you'll be trying to avoid? Oh, well, I have to deal with the fact that many of you punished me over credit-card lapses, but that's all in the future now. Like I've said elsewhere, Tana Umaga gets punished for one spear tackle and the media have got to leave that alone. And, yeah, there were issues that I had in terms of my time with Labour, but I've solved that problem for them now. Well, the thing is, Winston Peters said just yesterday that he is at the peak of his physical and intellectual powers at the moment, so he's going to be around for a while. So if you're looking at the leadership, you might have to wait for a bit, eh? Well, I went to St Stephen's School, and you learnt the patience of Job and the wisdom of Solomon, so whatever Winston's physical levels of endurance are, I've got no doubt about them whatsoever. First, win Whangarei. Make myself relevant. Make myself known again to ordinary Whangarei-ites who don't remember me, because I've been away for three-odd years ` largely in the Pacific. But make sure that they vote for the Shane who wants to excel in the political theatre and send the other fella back to the operating theatre. But where you say you're patient, and you're happy to wait, and you're there for the long-haul, you are looking towards the leadership long term, aren't you? Well, I'm 57, and you're not going to trick me like Willie Jackson. Sorry. I'm 57, and in some way, okay, that shows an older generation in terms of the juveniles joining the Greens, but put that to the side, I am here to make a long-term commitment, win Whangarei, but, most importantly, harvest votes in prodigious proportions, because that gives leverage to influence the formation of the next government. OK, speaking of the next government, Andrew Little says you're a friend of Labour, are you? I've still got lots of mates left in Labour; diminishing, however, with the disappearance of Shearer and the upcoming retirement of Cossie, but, obviously, most of the Maori in the party know me well, etc. So, in terms of forming a government, potentially forming a government after this election, the thing is Labour could probably come with the Greens, and you've said before it would be a long day in hell if you served under a Green government. Is that still your position? Well, the garrulous Aussie, Norman, has gone. He's where he belongs, in the Greenpeace. So, I don't think you should treat historic statements as being static facts; that's the first thing. But Metiria's still there. Metiria Turei was there when you made that comment, and she still is. I mean, she once described you as being sexist and said you were a 19th century man living in the 21st century. Would you be happy for her to be one of your bosses? Oh, well, I look forward to debating with her in the election, etc, and I don't get too hung up about various rhetorical missiles that are flung around. But in terms of forming the next government` So, you've mellowed about the Greens, have you? Oh, well, we must move on from the imperfect part of my career. We're going into a new phase where there's a lot more diligence; there's a lot more focus, but the passion is still there. In relation to the formation of the next government` And more pragmatism? There's one thing you can say about me, I was never doctrinaire or dogmatic. That is why, in many occasions, I parted company with the Labour party. So you could work with the Greens in government? Well, I am pragmatic, but the reality is ` first create the leverage by boosting the vote. But you're not ruling it out, then? No, all I'm saying is I'm going to win Whangarei, and I'm going to help Winston harvest votes up and down the country in nga hau e wha ` the four winds ` and then the wind that blows us into parliament is going to put the country on an entirely different course. All right, well, let's cover off a few other things. Should Peter Thiel have got citizenship? Oh, look, I'm not across the details on that? Are you not across the details on that because you don't want to be drawn into a conversation of whether you should have given Bill Liu citizenship? Oh yeah, no, that goes back to 2007. An issue` Was that one of the mistakes that you wouldn't want to repeat? Well, now, look, I can't walk away from the decision I made with the information that was in front of me at the time. Now, what happened in the last 10 years, and certainly over the last three years, I haven't followed it closely, etc. It's a decision I made. It's one I was pinged on by the audit department. It's one that the media have continued to pursue me on, but it's 10 years old, and you're not going to get any more comment out of me about it. All right, immigration is a core issue for New Zealand First, so what do you think is the right number of people coming into the country every year? I think you've got to step back, and we need to challenge the notion when a politician talks about wanting to change the mix of immigration, they are immediately branded as having some sort of phobia. I resent that. If it's not politicians who are going to influence the character and the mix of our future population, then who the hell's going to do it? The media? The academics? Okay, so what's the number, then? During the course of the election, we'll roll out the final details of our immigration policy. What's happened to the Shane Jones who would give you a direct answer? No, no, no, no, no, no. You're talking about` Have you been told not to talk about these things? Let's look at the area that I know about. I was with Helen Clark that rolled out the RSE scheme. It's actually a scheme that I believe has worked. It's an area of immigration policy that has done a great deal of good. But you can't give me a number at the moment? I will not be giving you an arithmetical exactitude in this answer. All right. Let's move on, then. TPP. You chaired a hui in Whangarei to convince Maori leaders that the TPP was a great thing that would benefit Northland Maori. Winston Peters doesn't want a bar of it. Who's changed their mind, then? Are you more aligned with Winston now? The meeting that you're referring to is one that I did as a diplomat. Now, I don't walk away from the fact I chaired Sealord's and chaired the Fisheries Commission and trade is essential to the future. So, what, you were a paid gun at the time and you said what you were supposed to? Well, I was both paid and I am a gun, quite so, but there's more than one bullet in the barrel. But the point I'm making is that` No, hang on, this is important. You were towing the party line that you were paid to deliver. Is that what you were saying at the time? Look, the meeting you're talking about, I chaired it. The purpose of people coming along was to thrash out their issues about trade. But you were also supportive. You said supportive things about the TPP. In that particular meeting, I had a stance which reflected the policy of my boss, Murray McCully. The TPP deal is now dead. Well, no, it's still being worked on. No, it's dead. It's being worked on in another form, Mr Jones. Okay, well, let's wait and see about that. So, let's be clear, are you for it or against it? I didn't vote on the TPP, and I have no idea. It's dead, and I have no idea what the future is going to hold for the TPP. I don't know. So, Winston's not a fan. You can't say where you sit. Well, no, I think if you look at the last manifesto, it's wrong to say that Winston's not a fan of trade. He's a fan of trade that suits the essential interests of New Zealand, and I'm cool with that. I was naming a specific deal, but you're not prepared to say where you stand on it now? Well, there is no TPP deal. In that form, but they're still working on something. We're dealing with facts. We're not dealing with imaginary scenarios. Should the Maori electorates stay? You stood in one at one time. I think the Maori electorates will stay for as long as the people who are on them want them to survive. I do feel that the Maori Party, however, is doing a lot of damage. Not so much to the Maori electorates, but they've had nine years to prove themselves. Sure, they've got the flag on the harbour bridge. That was Hone Harawira. Sure, they changed the law with smoking, but that was Hone Harawira. That was not Tariana Turia. Okay. We're almost out of time. I want a quick question. Are you going to get anyone else to join the party? John Tamihere? Clayton Cosgrove? Are you hunting for anyone else? Look, they're knocking at the door thunderously, but I won't give any secrets away. No names? Nice to talk to you. Up next, we have Nikki Kaye who joins me to talk about whether we're building enough new classrooms for Auckland's growing population. And later, why this woman spent 40 years in psychiatric state care until officials finally admitted she should never have been committed. Welcome back. Auckland's booming population is creating a long list of problems for local and central government. The housing shortage and crippling traffic are well known. But also under increasing pressure are the region's schools. This week, Education Minister Nikki Kaye announced which Auckland schools would get extra classrooms from money put aside in May's Budget. But is that enough? Well, Nikki Kaye joins me now in the studio. Good morning. Good morning. You've announced 21 million for 41 classrooms. But I'm wondering, given the population projections, is that going to be anywhere near enough? Well, that's on top of about 400 million that we've announced over the last couple of years. So you've got to understand we've got 21,000 student places in the pipeline. So this is on top of a big investment. So what are the role projections? How much are they going to increase every year? Yeah. So what we're doing is we're working through an Auckland plan over a 30-year period. That's anywhere from 60,000 to 100,000, so we will need to spend a lot more. In this budget, we've actually allocated ` and a lot of people haven't picked it up ` 4.85 billion for school property over a four-year period. So there's lots more funds, and we've done more than ever before to work out where those classrooms need to go. Because when you look at the maths, I still can't see how it adds up, because you're promising an extra 5000 places a year for students over the next four years, which is the 21,000 that you've just talked about, in Auckland. So the 21,000 goes from the commitment in 2014 right through to` I think it's 2023. But the thing is if you look at Auckland figures alone, they say there's going to be an extra 110,000 students by 2040. So you're kind of running to keep up, aren't you? Well, look, I think, when you look at those figures, what they say is that's the high growth projection. It's anywhere` I think 60,000 to 100,000 is the general average. We've got a lot of work going on behind the scenes where we've done geospatial mapping of particular sites. We're looking at land acquisition. So I'm very confident we're going to be able to get there. What we promised in 2014 was that we would build these 17,000 student spaces. That gets ahead of the average population growth per year. But we're going to need to continue to wrap this up to be able to deliver, if there are 100,000 young people coming. Yeah, absolutely. And it's about flow, isn't it? Yes. Because you might be doing the planning, but the buildings aren't there yet, and the classrooms aren't there yet for a number of schools. Well, a number of them are there, because I don't have enough time to cut the ribbons that actually exist across New Zealand, because we put so much money into school buildings. But I think what is important ` you can see in some schools that they've been over capacity, and I've said to the Ministry we need to do a lot better in terms of looking at what the real-time situation is in terms of schools. We only get twice yearly role returns. And you've got quite a complex range of things happening. Some schools accept out-of-zone children. You've also got Board-owned property. So there will be changes to the system to make sure we better understand what's happening at a real time. So are you saying that you're not keeping track of the numbers as quickly as you would like to? Well, what I'm saying is we've always had a system whereby we've left that up to schools, but I think when you've looked at these situations where we have had, you know, schools under pressure, I think we need to consider changing the system to make sure that we're much more responsive in the short term, where you have a fluctuation that you don't expect. But the answer for choice, in terms of those schools being allowed to accept out-of-zone children, means that sometimes you will have schools that are slightly over capacity. Well, we've been talking to a few schools this week, and teachers are working in libraries and staffrooms. They're in prefabs that don't have running water. We spoke to one school that is 150 students over capacity. We know that 40 schools in Auckland are already over capacity, and 127 are at risk of overcrowding. Is that the ideal learning environment? Well, I think if we go back to each of those situations and we look at them with detail, the first thing that you'll find is a number of them are taking out-of-zone children. So that's part of the reason. The thing that I would say, though, why I have confidence in terms of health and safety is that under the law, no school` We have a very generous property entitlement compared to other countries, so that overcapacity is just a trigger for a growth conversation. We do need to do better, Lisa` So are you saying that it's not an occupational health and safety issue, so it's OK? No. I'm saying that we need to do a couple of things ` both ensure there are no health and safety issues; but also build ahead. And that's why we've got the largest capital ever upgrade programme in our nation's history. We are spending hundreds of millions, and we will end up spending billions retrofitting Auckland for the future. When we came into government, Lisa, we were handed leaky buildings, school buildings that were 40 years old. I'm very confident we've both reformed the system, and we're spending the investment required to get ahead of growth. But the question still is on the table ` is that ideal learning conditions? What I've just described, which are real examples that schools have given us this week. No, they're not. And that's why we look at each individual situation, and that's why we need to look at, I think, how we're getting more real-time data from schools so that we can assist them or look at the policy settings and if they need to change. We spoke to one school that said it's operating out of prefabs and that they got approval for new classrooms last year, but they haven't heard from the Ministry since and nothing has happened. Well, I'm going to follow up directly on that school, so` We know they're not alone. They're not the only ones who said this, so I'm wondering what's holding things up, what's holding the flow up? Well, again, I'd have to look at each of those individual schools, because my experience of 2500 schools in New Zealand is you do sometimes get situations that go wrong, and those situations, we try and rectify that. But in other situations, there may be a range of other discussions going on in terms of they want to spend money from their 5YA budget; we offer money for new growth` So you would accept, in some cases, movement is too slow? Yes, I do. I have found situations. But overall, I think the Ministry's come a long way, and overall, I'm very confident that we will be the government that has invested ahead and future-proofed areas like Auckland. Well, the problems aren't just bricks and mortar, are they? They're people too. And the thing is with teachers, I think starting salaries range from 47,000 to 50 grand, depending on whether it's primary or secondary. And we know that half the teachers that you do attract leave within the first five years of teaching. How do you fix that? Well, I think there's a couple of things going on. The first is we need to make sure that the conditions are very good for teachers in New Zealand. And I think the introduction of Communities of Learning ` we know that offers other career pathways. The other thing that I would point out is when you look at the overall number of teachers, we've actually seen attrition drop. So I think there's about 100,000 teachers in New Zealand. Part of the issue that we have is in certain geographical locations` How many are you short, though? How many teachers are you short? We're short in particular areas. So take Auckland We've got 20,000-odd teachers, but we've got about a 1.5% vacancy rate. So in real numbers, how much is that? It's about 300. So you're short 300 teachers in Auckland alone? But the question is for any workforce, Lisa, you expect movement. So that wouldn't be necessarily unusual for any workforce. So the question is how do you make sure that those vacancies are filled as quick as possible? We've announced a range of initiatives, from the Teach First programme ` $5 million that I announced the other day ` to converting provisional teachers to full registration teachers to enable more teachers in the pool. So we've got a range of initiatives happening, but I have asked the Ministry, we need to have a workforce development strategy so that we look much longer ahead. So are you considering, or will you consider, paying for teachers who are living in expensive areas like Auckland ` because you know that some principals are subsidising accommodation for teachers ` will you look at that? We're not looking at weighting for Auckland. But what we have done is we've invested additional funds for those schools in Auckland who may need to provide further support around mentoring and further support for Auckland teachers. So there is additional funds going into the Auckland system, but it's not going to be via salaries. And the reason for that is particular areas will change` But you're saying you want to attract them and you want to make it attractive. You know the price of housing in Auckland. And they cannot attract people. One school we spoke to said they had two vacancies, they got seven applications, and no one had had the level of experience required for that position. Well, again, I think if you look at what we're doing, so through the Teach First programme we are providing additional funding so that we can weight that towards Auckland teachers. We're also providing The Beginning Teachers Project in Auckland. We're also, through Communities of Learning, providing additional remuneration. So for those people who choose to be an across school teacher` So are you doing all you can? Well, no, we'll continue to do more. I am interested in doing more. In part, if we do have a decent workforce strategy, then I think we can look much earlier about the geographical areas where we need to invest. OK. We spoke to a school who recently had a ratio of 36 kids to one teachers. Now, if you do the maths, that's about eight minutes of face time with a teacher a day. What do you think it should be? Well, the first point I'd make is it's up to schools to decide how they want to rearrange their classrooms, and it varies right across` But if they don't have the teachers or the space, though, some of them are forced to accommodate that. It varies right across New Zealand. The reality is that you've got to take into account there's lots of different types` So what's the optimum? What's the optimum? If those kids are getting eight minutes a day, if they're lucky, with their teacher, what would you want it to be? Well, the optimum is that every young person is learning, and that very much differs depending on the young person. We announced this week a digital fluency package of $40 million. We know there's more self-directive learning occurring. But absolutely we want young people to have quality teacher time. And the model varies. If you go across New Zealand schools, as I do, I come into classrooms for which you've got three teachers roaming with 100 children. I come into other classrooms for which they've got 15 children. Schools look and work out what the needs are of those children. But it brings us a full circle, doesn't it, Minister? If you have kids in prefabs that don't have running water, or old, dilapidated classrooms, and they're overcrowded and they're not getting one-on-one time with the teacher, that's not really optimum learning conditions, is it? But that's not the true picture of the whole of New Zealand. The reality is we spent $5 billion` It's the reality for a number of schools. It may be for some schools, but the reality is for most of New Zealand, we have undertaken the largest ever upgrade of school property` For those ones who are facing those problems` That's great for the other schools, but for the ones who are facing those problems, they're thinking it's not happening fast enough. And that's why we look at each individual case and we do everything we can to rectify that where that's possible. But if you look at the bigger picture, the utilisation for New Zealand of all of school property has actually gone down. With 30,000 more children overall, it's actually gone down. So that investment that we have put in overall is definitely making a difference, and we've got 4.85 billion to come. We're running out of time. I just want to cover off a couple of issues quickly. Deciles ` are you committed to replacing them? Well, look, I've said I am not a fan of deciles. I think it's totally wrong that they basically label schools on the income of parents and postcodes. So you would get rid of them? Well, the main thing is if you're going to get rid of something, you've got to have something to replace it, and the technical advisory group have done some great work. I'm working through with my colleagues around the policy. I hope to have an update before the election. The thing is, as you say, you have to replace it with something, and won't anything that you replace it with be used as a proxy to judge quality of the school? Well, not necessarily. It depends the way that you do it. Because, remember, what we're trying to do here, in terms of deciles` Do you think you can develop a system where parents wouldn't be able to choose based on that? I think it's possible. And I think it's important, because when I go into some decile 1 schools, some of the children say to me they feel that they do get labelled. So that's one of the reasons why that would be my ideal ` would be that the system goes. But we've got to be able to replace it with something. We're out of time, but I want to quickly ask ` have you thought about paying schools bonuses based on their results? Is that something under consideration or you would consider? No. Absolutely not? It's not under consideration. OK. Thanks for joining us, Nikki Kaye. Thank you. We'll talk about all of that and more later with our panel. But right now, Jeremy and Paul have their own take on 'Debarclay'. The big question this week ` the Barclay scandal. Is it Bill English's own teapot tapes, his own Dirty Politics, Paul? Well, you just have to look at Team New Zealand. I mean, how well did they do? When they won the cup, I was like, 'Yes! Yes! You beauties!' Y-Yeah, but back to Barclay. How badly has this damaged Bill English, do you think? Ohh, it's the success of our ingenuity and sailing talent, Jeremy. Burling is the new Kiwi hero. Sure. But is Bill English mishandling the Barclay debacle ` contradicting himself, continuing to bring the topic up? Should National be worried about their leader? No, the America's Cup's gonna be great for New Zealand. It'll bring the country together. It's already happening. Even the leader of the Labour Party, Helen Clark, says we should fund it. All right, then, let me change tack, Paul. Ohh, nice. Now you're getting on board. Which syndicate do you think will win the Whangarei Cup? Team Shane or Team Shane? Ooh, that's a tricky one. Depends on what the wind's doing, I guess, or the hot air, in this case. I'll tell you what ` I just want them to get up on the foils again. I think that means something different in the Far North, Paul. And finally, good news ` Ministry For Primary Industries has done a U-turn. You can still enjoy your medium-rare burger. Oh, well, that is good news for Labour. How's that? Well, they always go into the election undercooked, don't they? Ho-ho, Paul. Yes! Yes! You beauty. Welcome back. Recent calls for a commission of enquiry into abuses in state care have raised some harrowing stories, but this one could be one of the hardest to comprehend. Alison was dropped off at an adult psychiatric hospital as a child and left there for 40 years. Then was released and told she never had a mental disorder. Well, here's Mike Wesley-Smith with her story. MIKE WESLEY-SMITH: It's not an easy journey back, but one Alison is determined to make. How old were you when you came here? 8. November the 11th, 1950. Locked up as a child, now 75 and free, but not from her memories. (SOLEMN MUSIC) What thoughts go through your head when you come back? Very bad memories of sadistic staff. Alison's descent into institutional life began with a brain injury she sustained as a toddler. I had a rare form of chicken pox in 1941 and nearly died from it. Resulting behavioural problems saw numerous trips with her parents to doctors, desperate for treatment. Nothing worked to her parents' satisfaction. Then the day arrived when Alison was told she would be leaving. I went into the dining room, and I saw mum packing a suitcase of children's clothes. So I said to Dad, 'Well, where am I going? I want you to tell me the truth. Where am I going?' He said, 'You're going to a girls' boarding school.' But her new home was a psychiatric hospital. And I saw doctors and nurses walking around outside. And I said to Dad, 'This is some type of a hospital. This is not a girls' boarding school.' And I tried to run away, and he held me between his legs so I couldn't get away. He signed the papers, and my life was ruined for 60-odd years. To understand how something like this could happen to a young child, one must first understand social attitudes of the time towards children seen as different and the pressures placed on parents. ARCHIVE: One of their first problems is to accept that they have an intellectually handicapped child. All children reach out eagerly toward life, but these will never grasp it firmly. A retarded mind restricts them, narrows their world. A harsh view reflected in the legislation of the time. The Mental Defectives Act, which promoted hospitalisation and segregation of people considered to be of unsound mind, mentally infirm, an idiot, imbecile, feeble-minded or even epileptic. An uncompassionate law that would shape social perspectives for decades. For Alison, it would rob her of her childhood and her innocence. One day, in 1953, a male patient found her alone in the grounds of the hospital. He came up to me and threatened me at knifepoint and sexually assaulted me. And how old were you? 11. Abuse also came in the form of solitary confinement for up to two weeks at a time. It took place at Villa 14. This is the first time Alison has returned here in more than 60 years. He smacked me about and kicked me and all that. Alison says a lot of the staff were brutal. She can remember each of them by name. She used to fill the bath up with cold water and push me down under. She nearly drowned me, because she didn't like the way I was speaking to her. Glad to see the back of her and the scummy nursing staff, that's for sure. Were there any nice staff members? Yes, there were, and I really liked them. Social worker Judith MacKenzie was one of the staff who first saw Alison. Even after all this time, she remembers the young girl clearly. My memory tells me that she was the only child in the whole hospital. So that raises all the questions for you. Why is she here? The doctors refused Judith permission to speak with Alison's family or to help get her out of the hospital. She clearly did not have an intellectual disability. She was extremely articulate, and we just knew that something was quite, quite wrong. What frustrated Judith then, as it does to this very day, was why no one else tried to help Alison. Even exhibiting challenging behaviours, Judith says there were other options. Child Welfare ran a number of alternative civil foster homes, and, of course, there were family homes, so why was Child Welfare not looking after her, if her family was not able to? A missed opportunity to be thrown on the stack of others involving Alison. Alison would eventually be transferred to Carrington Hospital when she was 12. It was run like the prison system. There, the abuses continued with solitary confinement,... Because I was getting very frustrated, and I didn't like being there, and they put me into a straitjacket. ...shock treatment. All I can remember is the metal things going on the side of my forehead with the jelly stuff that rubbed on and that was it. ...beatings from staff and sexual assaults from other patients. He took me into the empty vege shed and threw me on the ground and pulled my underwear down and started playing around with me. Alison says the man was never charged. But within those walls, Alison did encounter people with compassion ` like Rod Davis, a patient advocate. Cos she strikes me as quite a fighter. Oh, she is. Oh, a real fighter, yeah. As Judith observed decades earlier, Rod immediately recognised Alison was in the wrong place. He read through her files and was disturbed by what he found. I challenged those doctors. I said, 'Look, she doesn't have any of the criteria of mental illness. 'How can you do this? This is against the law.' And they says, 'Well, we don't know what to do with her. We don't know where to send her.' I says, 'Don't you think it's your job to find somewhere safe to send her?' Rod's advocacy and her own self-belief carried Alison through to the closure of the hospital. What year did you leave? 23rd of August, 1990. The hospital system she'd entered as a young girl, she finally left aged 48 and moved into community care. I knew all the time I shouldn't have been in there. And, finally, Alison encountered a psychiatrist who did what she had waited so long for ` he believed her. He said I shouldn't have been in psychiatric institutions. He said, 'You've got a lot of physical conditions because of the abuse and the neglect and all the drugs.' And I was taken off committal. Doctors would determine Alison had neither a psychiatric disorder or intellectual disability, but that her functioning had been impaired by brain injuries she sustained as a child and from assaults by hospital staff. I don't think there's any doubt. By today's standards, she would never have fulfilled the criteria of the Mental Health Act, so she never would have been in a psychiatric hospital. Lawyer Sonja Cooper filed a claim on behalf of Alison in 2007 for the abuse she suffered in hospital care. I think for a child to spend from 8-onwards in a psychiatric hospital, and then right through into your 50s, in the psychiatric hospital context is horrific. Alison's claim was among hundreds of others Sonja Cooper brought on behalf of patients. Abuse was fairly widespread; particularly, I think, between the '50s and the '80s. There were many individual stories that painted a grim picture of hospital life in places like Kingseat and Carrington. Accounts also heard by a government panel between 2005 and 2007. Almost 500 former psychiatric patients described ` The most high-profile legal action involving former patients was the 2001 settlement reached with residents who experienced abuse at Lake Alice. ARCHIVE: Today the government announced that 95 former patients will get $6.5 million in compensation. What it signals is that the government wants to see justice done by those child and adolescent patients at Lake Alice. We naively thought, 'Well, our clients are telling the same stories. We'll get the same.' But under Labour and National governments, Sonja says claims like Alison's were defended vigorously by Crown lawyers using technical legal defences to avoid liability. That actually obtaining justice through the courts was, you know, virtually impossible. Eventually, Sonja determined settling would be the best outcome. And I think for somebody like Alison, giving evidence would have been extremely complex for her. So, in 2012, for decades of abuse, 329 former patients, including Alison, settled for payments in the vicinity of $2500 to around $20,000. READS: Your account of this period of your life indicates that the hospitals failed to take care of you. And, for this, I am deeply sorry. But what Alison really wants is a commission of inquiry into what occurred, so that mistakes can be explained, crimes exposed and the fundamental question answered ` why? Why did it happen? Because what these victims fear the most is that their stories will be thrown into history's seclusion room, draped in the silence that settlement agreements create. And for those that would say, 'Let the matter rest,' well, Alison will tell you she can't. It's not her past; it's her present. One that she lives with every single day. (SOFT PIANO MUSIC) But if no one from officialdom would have the courage to face Alison in person, there was somebody who would ` a social worker who last laid eyes on a young girl 60 years ago. After all these years. Alison, I remember you. I remember you too. Can I give you a hug? Yes. It is a white camellia. It is the symbol of freedom for women. Well, we knew you didn't belong there. I knew that too. But we were not able to do anything. It wasn't her fault. She'll never be to blame for it. I blame the hospital hierarchy for it. I still feel the need to say how sorry we are. Can I come and visit you again? Yes. I'd like to do that. I would welcome you with open arms. (CHUCKLES) How lovely. Now we can look forward, even if it's a bit later on, Alison. We can look forward. It's never too late, I don't think. It's never too late to improve things. For Alison, it's still not too late for this government to confront the ghosts of the past. She demands honesty... from all of us. You see, there's a lot of very good people around. It's just these stinkin' politicians that ruin it for the good ones. You know what I mean? Did you say you couldn't possibly comment? Possibly. You could possibly comment? Maybe after we stop recording. Oh, well, that's fair enough. And the Ministry of Health says the Crown acted appropriately in defence of claims like Alison's, and it hopes the compensation and apology Alison received can help bring her closure. Alison is receiving regular help from the support group Citizen Advocacy. Stick around. After the break, we're joined by our panel ` Guyon Espiner, Matthew Hooton and Julia Whaipooti. Welcome back. I'm joined now by our panel ` RNZ presenter Guyon Espiner, PR consultant Matthew Hooton and Julia Whaipooti from the lobby group JustSpeak. Good morning to you all. Shane Jones is back, Matthew Hooton, and you predicted it in a column about three years ago. What are his chances of winning? It doesn't really matter. I think there's a whole lot of focus on Whangarei now, because that's where the announcement was made and that's where he's gonna be standing. But this is a party which is already polling about 10%, so there's no doubt it's going to return to Parliament. All that matters is the party vote. Now, Shane Jones may get lots of party votes in Whangarei. Winston Peters may get lots of party votes in Northland. But that's what the focus is on, and I think we'll find that Shane Jones ` I'm sure he will campaign in Whangarei as he promised ` but I think he should spend an awful lot of time in the rest of the country, including West Auckland. But it comes down to a matter of pride, doesn't it, as well, in principle, because he's zip for three electorates that he's stood in before, and Bill English is saying that they're going to take Whangarei easily. Could he come to regret that, do you think, Julia? I think he could, but in the end, I would agree that it doesn't really matter the outcome there. And I think Shane is a very experienced politician, so he will be working in an electorate that he comes from and also with a party that appeals to a regional vote that may be Shane wouldn't have done in a previous party. We've heard him trot out some of the New Zealand First policies ` particularly, from our perspective, around law and order, we'd be a bit concerned about that. He comes from a community where crime is prevalent, but he's talking about, when he talks about gangs, he's talking about the whanau and the communities that live there, so we need to have better solutions. He's not talking about executing people, he's talking about following the money, though, so I suppose that's the difference between him and Hone. There would be a difference around that approach. We wouldn't agree with that. But actually that there needs to be a recognition that gangs come from the communities of which he will be representing, and then to class them as some other group isn't actually very helpful, or harmful, as is the policy for New Zealand First. So hopefully he changes tack on that. That's the closest I've heard him come to admitting he might be interested in the leadership, kind of, in a backward way, saying he's a patient man. He didn't really protest it too strongly, did he? And I think some credit here has to go to Winston Peters too. I mean, he is not someone who has been comfortable sharing the limelight, it would be fair to say. As an understatement. He has had a lot of lobby fodder in the previous couple of decades. He tended to get people who aren't really going to rock the boat. So for Winston Peters actually to bring Shane Jones on board, I think not a lot of people have talked about this, but I think he deserves quite a bit of credit for doing that and allowing` because of course that speculation will run, won't it, that Jones`? So you think it is Winston actually succession planning? Well, I know, succession` I know. Or does he want hunger games with Ron Mark? I mean, mortality and Winston, right? Well, as I wrote in the NBR three and a half years ago, Winston knows that for him to be truly important historic figure in this country, he has to a) deliver massively to Northland through policies, and he also needs his party to endure beyond him, because that's what's going to make him great. And so therefore he is highly invested in a successful transition to a new leader. So where does that leave Ron Mark? Well, it's very sad for Ron. Yeah, I mean, he would've been watching that with at least clenched teeth. You think? He wasn't there. He sent congratulations, apparently. Yeah, but that was an excellent interview. That was as good an interview that Shane Jones did. Certainly better than Andrew Little or Bill English would do. It was nearly in the category of a John Key or a Helen Clark. Ron Mark is not even remotely in the category of Shane Jones. That's just the reality. Julia, he seems to have mellowed on the greens, because his disdain for them previously was pretty well known, and he spoke publicly about it. Is that pragmatism, do you think? Oh, absolutely. And as he said as well, you don't hold historic comments to a static position. Not if you're a politician. And as he's gotten older, he's probably evolved in his views. And just back to the leadership and that succession planning, I am pretty surprised, because New Zealand First is synonymous with Winston Peters, and I haven't really seen him` this is some kind of succession planning, which surprises me somewhat, because it's beyond him and his ego. I thought he walked that line pretty well. I mean, there are some clearly` I mean, clearly, he thought the TPPA was a good deal. He's a pro-trade, globalisation, commercial guy. No, he didn't. He said Murray McCully told him to say that. But he walked those lines. The Maori seats is contrary to New Zealand First's view. I don't know that a lot of that's going to matter, as long as he handles it pretty well. And I suppose, you know, there will be a rump of New Zealand First who are uncomfortable with Shane Jones, but it's pretty much a win-win for them. As Matthew and Julia say, it doesn't really matter if he wins Whangarei. It's a good contest for the media to focus on as well. But it's all about the party votes. And it's mainly upside for New Zealand First. As you're saying there, he was portrayed and has spoken about that, so where is his natural home? Is his natural home, in terms of coalition alignments, is it more with National? Well, if he had his life to live over again, I think he would have been a National Party politician in the John Key-Bill English-style National Party, certainly not the Don Brash one. So I think that's probably his natural home. He is a globalist, but, you know, Winston Peters also comes from a National Party tradition with an obviously more protectionist stance on matters of globalisation, and I think he will be perfectly comfortable there, and I think what they now need to focus on and what their target is, is to come second in this election. And if they can come second in this election, then Winston Peters may well be prime minister by Christmas, and that is their goal. They are clearly targeting Labour voters. Labour is in a disastrous position in the polls at 25%. If Labour were to lose another 5% to New Zealand First as a result of this change, then we may well have a government made up of a number of small parties` Are you putting your money on the table now? No, I'm not putting my money on the table. There's a long way to go. But what I am saying is make no mistake. Winston Peters and Shane Jones ` their objective is that Winston Peters is prime minister by Christmas. And if National and Labour think, 'Oh well, it will be interesting to negotiate with them,' they've got another thing coming. Oh, I see raised eyebrows. Anyone else? Well, I hope that's really unlikely. What we would see if that were to happen as an adoption of maybe, you know, where there's concerns that have led to a different administration over in the States, that it's those kinds of issues that would be driving that kind of voting. I would disagree that there's a likelihood that New Zealand First would come in at second. It's not the most likely scenario, and I know that a lot of people laugh at that scenario, I don't think it's a laughable scenario. I think it's unlikely, but I'm certainly not saying, 'You're dreaming. It will never happen,' because if there's going to be an earthquake in New Zealand politics, a la Trump, Brexit, whatever, you know, Corban's rise, this is the most logical one. Look, they can come from anywhere and we could all be wrong, but a New Zealand First surge, real surge, is a definite possibility. You know, those kinds of attitudes led to a Trump administration. They could lead to a New Zealand First administration. It does exist here. Those rumblings do exist here. So we need to mobilise, I think, a new generation of voting to address those issues in different ways. Got to leave it there. Stay with us. After the break, we'll let you know what could be hitting the headlines next week. Welcome back. You're with The Nation and our panel. Had a chat to Nikki Kaye this morning, talking about the shortage of classrooms. People waiting who are teaching in prefabs. She says they're spending a lot of money, and she's right, but are the parents, whose kids are in those classrooms, going to accept what she gave us this morning? No, they're not. I mean, it was a credible performance. She seemed well-briefed and on top of her portfolio, if tending towards the bureaucratic a little, but she didn't seem to show a lot of empathy for the children who are actually caught up in that. It's all very well saying we're spending a lot of money ` they are ` but that doesn't help the people who are in those overcrowded situations. I also didn't hear a convincing explanation as to why they aren't looking at a weighting for salaries in Auckland. If you're on 47K, 48K, 49K, 50K in Auckland, you're really going to struggle. They're 300-odd teachers short in Auckland,... Short, yeah. ...and I haven't heard a convincing argument as to why they don't look at giving a salary boost to those people. Julia, what do you reckon about weightings for living in expensive cities or trying to fill positions that are hard to fill? Well, she talked about, in Auckland, how there's a 300-shortfall in terms of teachers. If we look at what should be our priorities, it should be our children and our young people, because they're going to grow up to be adults and contribute into our working society. 300 teachers is quite a shortfall, and we're looking at teacher to student ratios and listening to teachers and principals coming out and saying, 'This isn't enough. Our quality of teaching has been compromised.' Which means the quality of education for our young people is being compromised, which means the quality of our people coming out in the future generations is being compromised. So, where is the priorities? She talks about $4.8 billion being invested over the next four years into the infrastructure around schools to try and accommodate this kind of pressure. We're going to be spending more on prisons over that same time period. So where are our priorities? That's an interesting comparison. Yeah, and this is a government that says it's not turning back the tap on immigration, Matthew. So have they done enough prep to cater to the flow-on effects? No. You know, as they say, as the Minister admitted, it's 300 teachers short. I think that has to be seen in the context of an Auckland teacher workforce of 20,000. So it's not as if it's completely catastrophic. I've seen the interview that you just did with the minister with other ministers of education for at least 30 years, and these issues come up. They have to be dealt with. I think Nikki Kaye performed just as well as Phil Goff, Lockwood Smith, Wyatt Creech, Trevor Mallard, (CHUCKLES) Hekia Parata would've performed in the circumstances, but she has to watch it, as all ministers in this government do. They are there to lead. They are not the PR department for the Wellington bureaucracy. And, quite frankly, whether it's $8.4 million spent on this or $20 million spent on that, nobody cares. That's taxpayers' money. It's not them spending it, anyway. It's the taxpayer. They have to talk about outcomes not inputs. Yeah. Interestingly, she seems committed to getting rid of deciles and said that she's going to make, probably, an announcement before the election on that. I mean, this seems to be taking a long, long time. (CHUCKLES) Look, it's a difficult issue, and you have to have something to replace it with, but, I mean, we heard from the last minister that this system wasn't working. Yeah. We've heard these complaints for a long time. So, it's a long time in the gestation, that's for sure. You're not convinced, are you? Oh, look, I was press secretary to the minister of education when that scheme was announced. They looked at many different ways to do what it tries to do. I do not think you're ever going to find a scheme that is better than it. It has terrible flaws, but if you want to help people in poorer communities, it's the only way to do it. They're not going to replace it. All right. Let's move on to water, because this week TOP ` The Opportunities Party ` has said that commercial users of water should pay for every cent that they use. Market rates. That would include farmers, dairy farmers. Is this workable? Who's going to vote for that? Well, I think water is a very pressing issue for today and for our future, moving forward. What we would be looking at, and I think, particularly, our generation, it is a concern, because it's not so much about the economic benefit that comes from the water, it's about the health of our waters. And so, even if we did put out commercial costs to the usage of our water, how useful is that water going to be in, say, one generation's time? So we need to be forward-thinking. Putting money into it is one thing, but we need to be more strategic beyond that, because` Who uses it, and how much? Yes, absolutely. I thought it was a fascinating policy, actually, and probably one that deserved a little more media attention than it got. The current system is pretty bizarre, really, when you think about it. That you pay for a resource consent, and then can just pump away? Yeah, and it's whoever rocked up first. And, I have to say, if you're looking at who rocked up first, then Maori have got a pretty good claim on it. So, that was a pretty interesting strand on it. You call it a bizarre system. What it is, is a communist system. And it's delivered exactly what you would expect ` shortages and pollution. What we need is a market solution toward it. People who use water need to pay for it, and people who pollute water need to be either stopped or forced to pay for that pollution. And Gareth Morgan ` this is where his party might be useful to us ` if he can come up with pro-market solutions, given his background as an economist, which actually deliver on the objectives of environmental groups, he'll be adding quite a lot to our debate. Yeah, but is he going to get 5%? Because that's what he needs. Probably not, but he says his objective is to advance the debate. And, you know, the Soviet Union, people queued for bread, and there wasn't enough bread, and the bread was terrible. Well, we have the same system. You queue for water in New Zealand. No wonder it fails as a system. Hey, before we go, Peter Thiel ` 12 days in the country. Is that enough to be a citizen? I really don't want to talk about this, because if I say what I really think about the Peter Thiel issue, you will be before the Broadcasting Standards Authority. (CHUCKLES) Julia? Well, depending on who's in the old boys clubs that make that decision, it is. They talk about he's been a good ambassador for New Zealand, so I've been wondering where he has been for the last five years, but maybe if he had invested money into our refugee centre, maybe 12 days would be enough. He got a special circumstances grant, isn't that the point? You make an exception? They were very special circumstances, weren't they? (CHUCKLES) 12 days. On the 12th day of Christmas... ...you shall be a citizen. Yes, you shall be a citizen. All right. We will leave it there. Time now for a look at some of what could be making the news next week. Nominations for National's Clutha-Southland seat open tomorrow after Todd Barclay decided not to stand. The NZIER releases its quarterly survey of business opinion on Tuesday. And survivors of abuse while in state care over three decades will present a petition to parliament on Thursday, calling for a public enquiry and a government apology. That's all from us, for now. We will see you again next weekend. Thanks for watching. Captions by Able. www.able.co.nz Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2017 This programme was made with the assistance of the NZ On Air Platinum Fund.