MORENA. GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO Q + A. I'M GREG BOYED. THE GREEN PARTY LAUNCHES ITS ELECTION CAMPAIGN TODAY AT THIRD PLACE IN THE POLLS. CAN THEY FINALLY MAKE IT INTO GOVERNMENT THIS YEAR? JESSICA MUTCH IS STANDING BY WITH GREEN PARTY CO-LEADER METIRIA TUREI, OUR LEAD INTERVIEW THIS MORNING. WHENA LOOKS AT THE GROWING TENSION BETWEEN TOWN AND COUNTRY AND FARMERS FEELING THE PRESSURE OVER POLLUTED WATERWAYS. IT'S A BEAT-UP. POLITICALLY, IT IS A GOOD BEAT-UP. 'OH, WE'LL PICK ON FARMERS AT THE MOMENT, 'COS THEY'RE A SMALL GROUP OF SOCIETY, RELATIVELY SPEAKING.' AND THEN JESS WILL BE TALKING WITH RETIRING LABOUR MP ANNETTE KING AND NEW-ISH DEPUTY JACINDA ARDEN ` POLITICIANS FROM VERY DIFFERENT GENERATIONS ` WHAT'S CHANGED FOR WOMEN IN POLITICS AND WHAT HASN'T? AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL ` JOSIE PAGANI, PUBLIC AFFAIRS SPECIALIST AND DIRECTOR OF THE COUNCIL FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT; MARIANNE ELLIOTT, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER AND NATIONAL DIRECTOR OF ACTION STATION; AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN, HEAD OF BUSINESS FOR NZME. BUT FIRST, HERE'S JESS. THANKS, GREG. THE GREENS LAUNCH THEIR ELECTION CAMPAIGN IN NELSON THIS AFTERNOON, TRYING TO SECURE THEIR PLACE AS THE THIRD BIGGEST PARTY IN PARLIAMENT. JAMES SHAW WAS GOING TO BE ON; HE'S IN NELSON, BUT THE BEAUTY OF HAVING A CO-LEADER MEANS WE HAVE METIRIA TUREI WITH US NOW. I want to start off with asking you ` we have seen the new look for of the Green party on the cover of North and South Magazine. How important for you is it to rebrand the selection? Change happens over time. We are different now from then we started. We need to broaden our reach. We need to make sure that voting green is available to everybody. All of the things we are doing from the north and south cover two standing in Nelson to take that seat, all of these things are our way of reaching out to a broader New Zealand constituency, because the green values I New Zealand values. You have to look after the call green voter, which are stereotypically's tree huggers and people who like organic food. How do you balance that with the new voters you are trying to attract? The people who built our party ` Jeanette's fit Simon's and those who came from the values party had a party that was democratically inclusive. We need to ensure that their work that we continue to broaden our movement, and that means making it accessible to different people. The environment, democracy and taking care of people ` the means by which we communicate that changes over time, because that is just the nature of political change. James Shaw is one of the signatories on the constitutional document that established the Green party. He is right at the front of the party as well is one of our coleaders. He has brought his international experience to the fore with the Greens. That is great, because that sustaining business approach an interest in putting the environment at the heart of business operations is really important to people, so James is in exactly the right place at exactly the right time. Are you having to change your image to? Personally, I have had to be more... That is a funny question. I am finding it difficult. You are representing the party. I do not mean in a derogatory way. Are you having to change and it that the things that you bring forward in the media. I think that it is true that I have come from a very radical political background, and I'm very proud of that. In my time in politics, there have been attempts by people outside the party , to moderate that because they thought it will have a negative effect on our boat. It is tough. at times, I feel like I have been moderate in my approach, but I also know that voters and our supporters want us to speak truth to power, and what I have brought to the Greens and the New Zealand Parliament as someone from that alternative background who is speaking truth to power and will continue to do so. That remains a critical part of my leadership and my ability to represent those who do not have a voice in Parliament. What is your aim for this election? You are disappointed with 11% last election question mark I do not have a number, but I would like to have more of our new people on our list, for example Matt Lowry ` he is 21 on our list I would like to have in Parliament. The most important thing to me is that we have the strongest possible vote` we do not have a number. When we are in power was labour, that we had the most powerful government. What you need to take to the table? Is it 15%? We do not have a number. If you want a genuine, progressive government, then make sure the Greens are as strong as possible inside that government, because we are the strongest progressive voice. If we are not strong in that government, then things that are important to us won't be the priority for the government, and that is what we need to see. You said when you are in power with labour. Do you think you can trust them? Yet they have left you high and dry after a couple of elections. The memorandum of understanding runs out on election day. That was about showing the voters that they and the Greens would work together over the last year for the purpose of changing the government stop when we get to that point in September, we will start negotiations for a coalition agreement. We are separate parties with separate priorities. That is how we will campaign. But the goal is the same. I think any political party is vulnerable after the election to the vote by the New Zealand public. For every single progressive open voter to back a progressive government as what we are asking for. Are you prepared to work with national? No. We are not ready to support a government that they want to establish. Any government that we support or are part of has to be genuinely progressive We are not going to accept an inferior deal. What is your relationship like with Winston Peters? I think everyone thinks Winston Peters as annoying as hell. Our relationship with Winston is fine. He is taking a very racist approach to immigration, I think. The worst of his rhetoric is coming out. We may have to work with him and make a plea with the New Zealand public not to make that necessary. I have known Winston for a long time ` for 15 years. I do know that Winston and James have spoken. New Zealand first has not rolled us out like they have done in the past. And we have not ruled them out either. This is just the political reality we have. Either it is going to be national and New Zealand first, which is completely unacceptable, or it may be greens and labour with or without Winston. Would you work with Shane's Jones? I don't think he is going to have a great impact on the boat were New Zealand first. If we have to work with him, we will. We have had to cooperate with labour when he was in labour as well. You do not sound that keen. I do not think it is gonna make a huge difference to be honest. I want to talk about Nelson,, I find it really interesting the fact that you are standing there. Why not choose an easier seat? it is absolutely possible to take that seat. The person who is there has allowed the pollution of our waterways. He has also been elected to local council twice. He holds to his heart the values of the New Zealand community, which is making sure families have` why did you choose nothing? Why did you not choose something more achievable? I think it is achievable. Nick Smith has a terrible reputation among New Zealanders gross failure to deal with the housing crisis and to clean up rivers. I think that with Matt Lowry, who is a particularly strong candidate there, he can take it, and we are backing him. You got a donation from the state on Nelson as well. Did that affect your decision? But we cannot spend that. The money that we can spend is the usual amount that we can send for any electorate. The fact is that Nelson has a very weak minister who has been the cause of over two of the major problems that are facing the country, and we have a great strong candidate. Labour is also standing there. Why not do a deal with them? We decided not to do a particular deal other than because that is just how it worked out. Labour did not refuse. We just decided that we would leave it on the table for this election., Make sure that we had the best chance of keeping Peter Dunn out and Oahau, but all other deals are off the table. It was not about then frying us a bone. We had Matt, who was willing to stand, and he is a great candidate. He has been campaigning there for quite a while. Labour does have a good candidate there, but we think Matt is the man for Nelson and that he can take it. You are heading to Nelson after this. I cannot tell you about the announcement with regards to water. The two major issues for water as those who make a profit out of it to sell overseas. A lot of people are getting sick because their water has faecal matter and it in New Zealand, and the fact that we have an issue with our rivers from the dairy industry, which I know you're going to do a story on soon, but those are the issues we are concerned about, and we will be addressing them. We can expect an announcement on that afternoon. We are talking about women in politics later in the show. What is your experience? The woman in the New Zealand Parliament work really well together when we get the opportunity. we saw that when the women from labour and the Greens set up against John Key using rape as a political weapon. That showed us how strong women can be in the New Zealand Parliament. The casual sex is that CORRECTION: sexism that any woman is pray to in any workplace. We believe that we have the right to be at the table in New Zealand Parliament. We will have to leave it there. Thank you for your time. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND YOUR FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF ` EACH TEXT COSTS 50C. THE PANEL'S HERE AFTER THE BREAK. JOSIE PAGANI ` FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE, PUBLIC AFFAIRS SPECIALIST AND DIRECTOR OF THE COUNCIL FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT. MARIANNE ELLIOTT ` HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER AND NATIONAL DIRECTOR OF ACTION STATION. AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN ` HEAD OF BUSINESS FOR NZME. Let us start with you. How are things looking for the Greens this time round to actually have a say? They have been in opposition forever. The challenge as it is for all green parties As balance between being a permanent opposition, the moral conscience of Parliament ` I am quoting James sure there ` and at the same time wanting to be in government. Their roots are in activism. But at the same time, they want to be like the German Greens, and their leader, who became foreign affairs minister in government. It is still a challenge for them. The lineup looks great. There are a lot of young people. The problem with that lineup is that it looks like they have been selected on the activist base rather than the youth. If you are trying to present this spirit of the Greens as having a broader appeal. There is one woman there who is a human rights lawyer who does have a very practical background of achieving something, but close while brick and so on, they have a activist background. What the greens have to do to be electable is to present themselves as policies that have a broader appeal, and that is the constant dilemma they have. They polled really well in the last election, but their vote was not too flash. I think it is going to be very different this time, because that seems to me that they have plateaued a bit. They have tried to modify the image to make it look more professional and open liberal, and again, the activist side is not so much there. They have an opportunity this afternoon to talk about water not being sold offshore. Is it what is going to get them voters? They won't be the only one on that issue. Labour and Winston will pick up on that. That and also the quality of our waterways. Is that some of the problem as well? Everyone has a green policy now. As at hurting the greens as well? You do make a good point there thatsome of the possibly policy proposals That the Greens have been fighting for years are now quite mainstream. I think I totally agree with Fran, and I am saying this coming from what we see at action station, the energy of the New Zealand public to see change around our waterways ` there is a huge energy there. When people start petitions on those, people are not happy. Winston will have policies and so will labour, this has been a flagship for the greens. If they want to get cutthroat, and this is the problem with the left block, and they have to distinguish itself from labour, and so I think they should campaign on water and swim a bullet brothers. no one owns the water, but a lot of people make money off it. The evolution of the Greens party ` you had Russell normal and now you have James Shaw, they all have great credentials. They are moving more and more towards the centre. They do need to show a bit of far in the belly. They have defamed themselves. They have made themselves available to people like me. By modifying their image, they become more urban liberal. in the same process, they have made themselves this is a bit of the issue. In business circles, James Shaw has presented himself as credible. They see both him and Jacinda as credible in the future. But as a leadership block in the future. But at the same time, they still have to get votes on the day, and so they have to get that activist base behind them. I feel like you are saying to opposite things. You are saying that they have lost the fire, while Josie is saying that there are too many activists in the group. The policies are still strong, and they really care about what they stand for. They have the diversity but right, now do they need to get the diversity of ideas right. the swimmer Bull Rivers ` let's really rethink this. Let us think about this in terms of volume and value. We have Jacinda on later. That memorandum of understanding, your thoughts on it? Have they won anything from being Pali with labour? Before the last election, National was able to tell the story that the lift was kind of scattered and the image of the boat rolling in all the different directions. We have to remember that they knew going into this election that they had to be able to demonstrate that they were not rolling in different directions that they were rowing together, and so people are looking for something stable. What you have to trade off to get that? I don't know. I do not think they should have done it. They have kind of placated labour and the public with their image. They are at real risk of Winston selling right over the top. He has been doing an amazing ground game around the country. I think that is a bit of a pity for them. If you look at their reliance and go back to that election, the alliance signalled to the electorate that that civil war was over by inviting Helen Clark to the annual conference. There was no memorandum of understanding. They did not swap boats. it was an election where they had a very clear choice. That is the problem with the memorandum of understanding. Standing someone in Nelson has perplexed a lot of people. Nick Smith is very visible and popular. They are really taking a punt on the packed that this has been a very bad year for Nick Smith. Housing and waterways. That is obviously where they are saying that they are going to take the punt on. We believe that one there. THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A TOWN AND COUNTRY DIVIDE, BUT IS THAT DIVISION CUTTING DEEPER, BECAUSE OF THE DEBATE OVER OUR POLLUTED WATERWAYS? WHENA OWEN VISITS A GROUP OF DAIRY FARMERS WHO ARE FED UP AT NOT FEELING THE LOVE. CALL US ON OUR WATER ISSUES, ABSOLUTELY, AND WE NEED TO FIX THEM, BUT YOU NEED TO CALL YOUR OWN AS WELL. AS YOU HEARD EARLIER, THE GREEN PARTY LAUNCHES ITS CAMPAIGN TODAY, AND SWIMMABLE RIVERS IS ONE OF THEIR KEY ELECTION PROMISES. THE STATE OF OUR RIVERS HAS BEEN UNDER INTENSE SCRUTINY IN RECENT YEARS, AND IT'S DAIRY FARMERS WHO'VE BORNE THE BRUNT OF THE CRITICISM. MANY FARMERS CLAIM ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE STORY IS BEING TOLD. SO WITH THAT IN MIND, WHENA OWEN WENT TO TALK TO SOME DAIRY FARMERS IN CANTERBURY, WHO SUGGESTED TOWNIES MIGHT WANT TO CLEAN UP THEIR BACKYARD TOO. (CHILDREN SHOUT, LAUGH) LUNCHTIME GAMES AT THE MT SOMERS SPRINGBURN SCHOOL ARE PLAYED AGAINST A BACKDROP OF MOUNTAIN PEAKS. THAT BIG ONE THERE IS MT SOMERS. YEAH. THAT ONE IS MT HUTT. LIKE MANY RURAL AREAS, THE SCHOOL IS THE CENTRE OF THE COMMUNITY. THEY FOUGHT TO RETAIN IT IN THE '90S. WHEN IT WAS AMALGAMATED WITH ANOTHER SCHOOL, THE ROLL WAS JUST 46. NOW IT'S 100, AND THERE'S A REASON FOR THAT. AND WHAT SORT OF ANIMALS HAVE YOU GOT ON YOUR FARM? I'VE GOT... COWS. YES, DAIRYING HAS CHANGED THE DEMOGRAPHIC IN THIS COMMUNITY. LOCAL FARMER AND FEDERATED FARMERS REP CHRIS ALLEN EXPLAINS. WHERE THOSE FARMS WOULD HAVE JUST HAD A FARMER OR A FARMER WITH ONE WORKER, IT MIGHT BE A FARMER WITH 10 WORKERS. AND THEY COME WITH THEIR FAMILIES, AND THEY ALL NEED TO BE EDUCATED. WHILE SHEEP AND BEEF FARMS ARE STILL THRIVING UP THE ASHBURTON GORGE, FURTHER DOWN, THE ALLENS ARE AMONG THE LAST REMAINING DRY FARMERS. AND NOW WE'RE PRETTY MUCH` NOT MANY SHEEP AND BEEF AROUND. MOSTLY ALL DAIRY, OR DAIRY SUPPORT OR CROPPING. DIRTY DAIRYING ` YES? MOSTLY ALL DAIRY, OR DAIRY SUPPORT OR CROPPING. DIRTY DAIRYING ` YES? DOES THAT OFFEND YOU ` THAT TERM? NOT ANY MORE. OVER IN ASHBURTON, DAIRY FARMER WILLY LEFERINK REMEMBERS WHEN HE FIRST ARRIVED IN MID-CANTERBURY. IN THIS DISTRICT, THERE WAS MAYBE A HANDFUL OF COWS BACK IN 1990, AND NOW THERE'S 350,000 COWS HERE. IN CANTERBURY? IN MID-CANTERBURY ALONE. MID-CANTERBURY? YES. WOW. OK, SO MASSIVE SHIFT? MASSIVE SHIFTS AND MASSIVE DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES. I'M PROUD TO BE A DAIRY FARMER. THE PUT-DOWNS, HE SAYS, ARE NOTHING NEW. AND STILL DAIRY FARMERS ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HEAP. THEY WERE FROWNED UPON. THEY OBVIOUSLY SELL ANIMALS THAT SMELL. THEY WEREN'T SHEEP FARMERS, AND THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, HIGH-COUNTRY FARMERS THAT WERE` SO THERE WAS A BIT OF SNOBBERY? THERE WAS SNOBBERY. THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT, BUT WE CAME HERE AND WE WERE WELCOMED, AND I'VE ENJOYED EVERY MINUTE HERE, BEING HERE IN THE ASHBURTON DISTRICT. WILLY LEFERINK NOW RUNS 3500 COWS. AND NOW, HE SAYS, IT'S URBAN NEW ZEALAND WHO ARE LOOKING DOWN ON DAIRY FARMERS. WE GET LAMBASTED BY ALL THESE ALLEGATIONS ` POLLUTING THE RIVERS. WELL, WE ACTUALLY HAVE` IN CANTERBURY, WE HARDLY HAVE ANY POLLUTED RIVER WHATSOEVER. WHAT ABOUT THE SELWYN? THE SELWYN WAS ONLY BECAUSE IT WAS VERY LOW WATER IN IT, AND A WATER POOL, WHEN IT DRIES UP, BECOMES QUITE DIRTY. FURTHER NORTH, SHEEP AND BEEF FARMER LINDA MURCHISON HAS NOTED THAT MANY TOWNIES LUMP ALL FARMERS IN TOGETHER. IF YOU GET A ROGUE TEACHER WHO DOES SOMETHING THEY SHOULDN'T DO, OR A DOCTOR OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THE REST OF NEW ZEALAND DOESN'T SUDDENLY DECIDE EVERY TEACHER'S LIKE THAT OR EVERY DOCTOR'S LIKE THAT. YET FOR SOME REASON, IF THERE IS ONE PERSON WHO'S FARMING WHO DOES SOMETHING THAT THEY SHOULDN'T DO, SUDDENLY THE MEDIA OFTEN WANTS TO PORTRAY THAT ALL FARMING'S LIKE THAT. A COUPLE OF DAIRY FARMERS WE MET ON THE BACK ROADS HERE WEREN'T COMFORTABLE TALKING TO US. THEY SEE THE MEDIA AS PLAYING A BIG ROLE IN PERPETUATING THE 'ANTI-FARMER, DIRTY DAIRYING' NARRATIVE, AND SO WIDENING THE SO-CALLED URBAN-RURAL DIVIDE. (MELLOW COUNTRY MUSIC) 'YOU NEVER HEAR ABOUT WHAT FARMERS ARE DOING ABOUT NUTRIENT RUN-OFF,' WE WERE TOLD. Q + A WAS INVITED TO FILM THIS REGULAR ASHBURTON WATER ZONE MEETING WHERE FARMERS ARE WORKING WITH LOCAL AUTHORITIES TO TRY AND SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS. THE RURAL-URBAN THING DOESN'T NEED TO BE THERE. IT'S A BEAT-UP. POLITICALLY, IT IS A GOOD BEAT-UP. 'OH, WE'LL JUST PICK ON FARMERS AT THE MOMENT, 'COS THEY'RE A SMALL GROUP OF SOCIETY, RELATIVELY SPEAKING.' WE'VE JUST GOTTA WORK IN THIS ONE TOGETHER. WE JUST WANNA KNOW THAT YOUR WATERWAYS IN YOUR CITIES ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT TO YOU AS WHAT WE DO OUT ON THE LAND. CALL US ON OUR WATER ISSUES, ABSOLUTELY. WE NEED TO FIX THEM. BUT YOU NEED TO CALL YOUR OWN AS WELL. AND TO BE HONEST, I WOULD SAY I THINK RURAL HAS GOT IT ALL OVER URBAN IN TERMS OF FIXING WATER. I THINK WE'LL BE DONE AND DUSTED WITHIN THE NEXT 10 YEARS, AND I THINK SOME URBAN AREAS WILL ONLY JUST BE STARTING. MOST TOWNIES WILL KNOW THAT THEIR RIVERS ARE NOT CLEAN EITHER, AND THAT THEY HAVE TO INVEST MONEY TO CLEAN UP THEIR ACT. BUT THEY'RE NEVER DISCUSSED BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT THE GROUPS THAT MAKE THE BIG CLAIMS. IT DOESN'T FIT THEIR POLICIES. WHAT GROUPS? YOU KNOW, GREENPEACE, THE GREENS. YES. THEY DON'T SEE THAT THE CLEAN` I BELIEVE THAT THEY JUST HAVE TO CLEAN UP AS MUCH AS WE DO. MT SOMERS GENERAL STORE HAS SERVED THE LOCAL FARMING COMMUNITY FOR GENERATIONS. OWNER JILL KERR TELLS US SHE'S NOT QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT ANY TOWN AND COUNTRY DIVIDE. I CAN'T SAY, COS I'VE NEVER BEEN TO THE NORTH ISLAND. SO` JILL, YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO THE NORTH ISLAND? JILL, YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO THE NORTH ISLAND? NO. NO. (CHUCKLES) SO YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TO AUCKLAND? NO, I HAVEN'T, SO I CAN'T REALLY SAY. PEOPLE ROUND HERE HAVE MORE TO WORRY ABOUT THAN WHAT TOWNIES THINK OF THEM. THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN MID-CANTERBURY IS UNDER 3%. ONE OF THE TROUBLES IS THE IMMIGRATION LAWS. THEY'VE BEEN TOUGHENED UP QUITE A BIT, SO` SO IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO GET STAFF? YEAH, HARD FOR THEM TO GET STAFF, FULL STOP, LET ALONE FOREIGNERS. SO ROUND HERE, ARE RECENT PRESSURES GOING TO SWAY THE FARMERS' VOTE THIS ELECTION? THIS IS NOT LABOUR COUNTRY. (CHUCKLES) NO. NO. NO. THIS IS NOT GREEN COUNTRY EITHER, NO. LINDA MURCHISON'S MESSAGE FOR URBAN NEW ZEALAND IS JUST THREE WORDS ` LOVE YOUR FARMER. OK. (LAUGHS) SO DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO CATCH ON? OH, WELL, I THINK DEEP DOWN, MOST NEW ZEALANDERS DO. WE HAVE A LOVE AFFAIR WITH FARMING IN NEW ZEALAND. IT'S VERY MUCH A PART OF OUR CULTURE. AND I THINK WE JUST` BUT AS FARMERS, WE NEED TO GET OUT THERE AND TELL OUR STORIES MORE, AND WE NEED TO REASSURE NEW ZEALAND THAT IT IS LIKE YOU SEE IT ON 'COUNTRY CALENDAR'. AND THOSE LIVING THE COUNTRY CALENDAR LIFE WOULDN'T HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY. WHAT DO YOU LIKE ABOUT THE COUNTRY? WELL, YOU GET TO DO MORE STUFF THAN THE CITY, AND THERE'S LOTS MORE THINGS YOU CAN DO. LIKE, YOU CAN GO ON THE FARM AND SHIFT SOME STOCK OR SOMETHING, AND YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN TOWN. WE CAN ALL GROW IN THIS COUNTRY TOGETHER. THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE PRESSURE ON OUR WATER. I LOVE TO COME TO CHRISTCHURCH, AND ONE DAY I'M GOING TO GO SWIMMING IN THE RIVER AVON. I'M GOING TO GO SWIMMING IN ALL THE BEACHES IN AUCKLAND AFTER IT RAINS. THAT'S ON MY BUCKET LIST. CANTERBURY FARMER CHRIS ALLEN TALKING TO WHENA OWEN THERE. You are from a rural background. Is that all bring fairly true? this is something I think about a lot. I live in Wellington. My entirely family as dairy farmers. I worry about this. I worry about this kind of antagonistic adversarial way the conversation is set up in New Zealand. It does not move things forward for farmers to think that they are under siege. We are in this together. Those of us who consume or don't consume their products, the farmers. I would like to see much more focus on the governments responsibility in all of this. Farmers need the right funding and resources. As those farmers pointed out rightly, starting from what do we need to be doing better. Instead of depending themselves immediately, farmers should start the conversation by saying that claim rivers matter to them. that is the future we want. If everyone started the conversation with what we want to achieve and how we can get there together, we would get further. Farmers are working on the incentives that are there. If you shift the economy from something that is addicted to volume and one that is addicted to value, then we are going to be stuck with this ever increasing number of cows. You cannot blame the flowers for that. You end up with industrial dairy farming. I grew up in the country to, and I know that my farming family, they wanted to buy unethically and well. There has to be a combination of science helping us define and create those Products, and ironically those were against the TPP, would have encouraged the exports of cheese and yoghurt. We should be aiming for $16 per kilogram of milk solids, not six dollars. I had three cows named after me. There is no way anyone is anyone is going to be that. Really, New Zealand is paying the price for the white gold rush Milk production is up 70% since 2000. The real issue is can we can sustain our waterways with the level of production we have in the methods of farming we have? The associate professor from Lincoln University, he was there for many years in a full-time capacity, there is a study now where we should be looking at the methods of farming in the US we we should be bring cows undercover when it rains. more intensification is going to be hard to do. The latest figures talking with ANZ in the last week or two, they are actually seeing much more money lending out to red meat and so forth, which has less impact on farms, but I think we have gone against the limits of growth, and I do not think you can just as easily say, "hey, townies, have a look at yourselves." 350,000 cows reintroduced since the mid-90s. We have reached peak bovine. We have gone to 5 million. There needs to be a combination of reduced stock by about 20%, but you also have to look at the science of how we become global leaders with the nutrients and quality food, and creating more productivity from grass. We try to address grass several years ago with the DVD whatever it was ` the upshot of that was that it got into the supply chain and it got into the milk, and it gotanother by security issue. We have to be careful with how we use science. The main issue is overstocking. we are starting to see the environmental people around the country just say no. Let us go back to politics on this. National is never going to to the thumbscrews on farmers, because farmers over national. National also has to win urban votes. They have to convince New Zealanders that they are going to do something about this issue. All of what you say makes perfect, rational sense. This is currently not a rational issue. What we saw in that interview was an emotional response. The way we have the conversation needs to shift` what we need is to have transitional assistance, and a lot of farmers are doing the right thing, but there is still an issue of overcapacity on our land. How do we address that? We lack conversion with what we do with our agricultural industry. The farmers are not to blame for that. What we need is a revolution in our agricultural sector. AFTER THE BREAK ` JESSICA IS BACK WITH LABOUR MPS ANNETTE KING AND JACINDA ARDERN. WELCOME BACK, AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME, LABOUR MPS ANNETTE KING AND JACINDA ARDERN. We are talking women and politics. And it's, you have been in Parliament for more than three decades. how has it changed for you? When the 84 intake came in, it went up to 15%. Today it is at 33%. There is more women and adversity. Most of us came from a social service background. We have women who are farmers, lawyers, small business people. There is diversity in the experiences and different backgrounds and ethnicities. MMP has brought that to parliament. It is a more representative place. Have you been treated differently from when you first started to now? Yes. Because there were less of us, it was harder to be heard. Labour had a slogan, make policy, not the. It is more easy for women to be heard in our caucus. That wasn't so easy in the 80s. It was a male dominated Caucus and Parliament. Jacinda, what has been your experience? People like Anette were pioneers. Helen Clark. Talking to Marilyn Waring, hher experiences were extraordinary. I have been treated fairly. I am the youngest woman and my caucus. I have had to support to take on roles. It is the external commentary that we have some way to go. Like what? Some of the discussion around women being elevated. You expect critique and criticism, but we ask for it to be fair and robust, evidence-based. You would have been in the same situation? Not so much. There were fewer of us and we were older. People like Marilyn Waring faced it, but I came in in my mid-30s and was a backbencher. What I have noticed, and perhaps this is always happened, to criticise what a woman wears and looks like is still prevalent. I don't see the same happening when a man appears on the front cover of a magazine, people saying is in that terrible? They say great, the Prime Minister is there again. They don't talk about his suit and make up. Those sorts of things of irrelevant to the job. I want to ask you both about Holly Walker's book. She has left Parliament and talks about how rigid it was to be a mother and Parliament. Jacinda, do you have sympathy for her? Yes. It is superficial compared to the experience that Holly had. We will move on and progressively move away from some of that other stuff, but those of the things we have control over. The environment we create in parliament is something we can control. I thought here was a woman who was succeeding, she had a child in parliament, carved a path, and then I read of her experience and was devastated. She has done a great service to us by putting that experience out there so that we can make changes. Is it too difficult to have a child in parliament wish to mark no, and it shouldn't be. Some of it gets to how a caucus handles such times. We have been generous with women who have had babies while I have been in Parliament. Fran O'Sullivan reminded me not long ago that when you go back to the days of Fran Wilde with three children, there was nowhere for them to go. After school they would be in a room for the press and politicians. Things have changed. The hours are better and there is more support. We used to sit right through the night for urgent debates. The hours are better. We could do more things to improve it for families. That's men and women. The conversation and Parliament reflects the conversation we need to have and work places. Do you feel it is unfair that you get asked these questions? It's not unfair, because there is a natural curiosity. If I make that decision, it is natural that people ask about it. There is a point where the questions should go. That's something I have always been happy to manage. Lots of women struggle with the time in question. At the moment, we have two of the major parties ` for you, Annette ` two strong women and deputy positions. Doesn't make it easier for the leader to be palatable to the public with strong women and the number two seat? The deputy is behind the leader, behind-the-scenes. Jacinda does similar things to what I do. You work with the caucus and issues. You make sure people are where they need to be. You support the leader and do what is helpful and supportive of him or her. I don't think the gender thing is the issue. It is the role you carry out and how you carried out. You have to be good, but not too good that you outshine your leader. You just have to be yourself. That is one of the things that I admired about Annette. She has always been totally committed to social justice and being herself. Keeping a sense of herself in such a hard political environment, and that's all you can ask as deputies. Are you being compared more to Andrew little than you were, Annette, to your leaders? No, and I am not aware of it. Did you get that too? No, I didn't notice that. I had a job to do. It is a hard job being the deputy, because you have a portfolio. You are running at that and you have a constituency and a role in supporting the leader and in the caucus. You get on with the job. What about the billboard? You are on the billboard. We strongly feel that in comparison to the current government, we have a strong team. The fact we are standing side-by-side is indicative of the incredible team we have. The use to be a time when every minister matters. They had up government departments. We should be ppresenting a team. Does Andrew little need help? No. A government that is ready is not just about a leader or a deputy; it is about a team. You will see more of that team, because we have an incredible frontbench. It is renewed and has been forgotten among the commentators. You present a team ready to be in government. Should we be seeing Paula Bennett on the billboards? That's up to them. 31% for women in parliament at the moment. When will we see a 50-50 split? It will come faster than 8% over 33 years. If you look at our list for the Labour Party, it is the best list I have seen for women and winnable positions. You have to have women and winnable seats and positions on the list. We will see more women come through labour and other parties and will reach 50 faster than the 33. We will reach 50 when other political parties modernise themselves and take a progressive Position. STAY WITH US. OUR PANEL'S BACK AFTER THE BREAK WITH THEIR HITS AND MISSES OF THE POLITICAL WEEK, PLUS YOUR FEEDBACK. Welcome back. Fran O'Sullivan, you worked in Parliament for a good deal of time. Is it any better? I think it is a great deal better than it was. I was there when Fran Wiles has young children. We used to use the room after school so they could do their homework. We were single mothers. There weren't many female Mps. That has all changed. We are seeing more women in leadership roles. I feel fair for Jacinda, because we have women and this foil to the man. It is like the TV wife. That devalues it. We have had a strong prime ministers in their own right, and I would like to see women being leaders again. The challenge for women in parliament as you have to work harder to be taken seriously. You can see that with Jacinda. She has had to push back on this image about substance. A woman in parliament has to work that extra bit harder to have her status recognise. You have to tackle hard issues, and that is the crux of it. Jacinto refers to the criticism, and I was one of them as well. She has the capacity to do some really strong political stuff. The role she has now as a detriment. Does labour have a strong leader? We will see. The voters of New Zealand will decide. You have the coleaders of the Green party, and labour needs to get those women voters as well. What they are presenting as a look that looks more like the Green party billboards, which is a man and woman both on the Billboard. Jacinda's popularity may rub off on Andrews unpopularity. The Billboard slogan they have is a fresh approach of time for a fresh approach. Which says move over. There is a tide amongst New Zealanders for change, and 15% would like to give another team ago, but 54% say labour is not ready for government. I would have a slogan on the Billboard that is more about substance, policy something they are going to do. Having Jacinda there is good, but there is a risk. Annette said it has gone up but not quite 1/3. It's not good enough. You can look at the appointment is to cabinet, and we have never had 50-50 positions. They have been lax about bringing women through. Justin Trudeau in Canada as a progressive Prime Minister, you say give them more roles where they are chairing committees. That puts you on a path to being a cabinet minister. You have to recruit women from the community when they are leaders. You can't just have politicians being elected. You have to deal with the barriers within Parliament. They are significant. YOUR FEEDBACK NOW ON THE ISSUE OF FARMERS FEELING UNFAIRLY BLAMED FOR POLLUTING WATERWAYS. ANDREW DEAN FROM ASHBURTON TWEETS THAT... FRANK MACSKASY WAS VERY FAVOURABLE ABOUT METIRIA TUREI, SAYING,... AARON HAPE SAYS,.... She rolled her eyes about Winston. Josie, your hits. My hat is Merkel for being the Chancellor of sass. Putin Mansplained to her. My Mrs Donald Trump for the political handshake being turned into a weapon. It's all about saying you're not armed. He has turned it into a tug, our grasp and tug. I love that the world is fighting back. Macron squeezing dual, I loved. Donald may have missed state not armed for ripping their arm off. My head of the week is Amy Adams making sure the apology happened this week for homosexual men being convicted. My mess is ironically in the same week that that apology happened, and Tolley had an opportunity to do the right thing and apologise, and instead she completely flood that. She refused to apologise or to even signal that the government might apologise. Is that fair that the next step is compensation? You can't refuse because you are afraid. Judith Collins following on the back of her fairly successful Sally into offshore trusts. She is trying to get the feel companies stopping being what they are as an un-stationed cartel of your pricing. This could go to the commerce commission, but she is jawboning the companies. My Mrs Maggie Barry. A thoughtful decision out of the circle been caught about the dam to go ahead and the ease coast of the North Island and then to say we will look at the legislation in the future. That is not the response she should make. It is heavy-handed. Josie, how big a splash other greens going to have to make? This is going to be the big crack. It needs to be a big splash in their territory, the environment. And is to be water and rights and rivers. 'MARAE' IS NEXT. REMEMBER, Q + A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35PM. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS, AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q + A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY SHRUTIKA GUNANAYAGAM AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017.