MORENA. GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M GREG BOYED. TODAY ` THE NEW ZEALAND FIRST CONVENTION'S UNDERWAY THIS WEEKEND. WINSTON PETERS IS ON A ROLL AND LOOKS SET TO BE KINGMAKER COME SEPTEMBER. SO WHAT WILL HE WANT? POLITICAL EDITOR CORIN DANN IS STANDING BY WITH WINSTON PETERS, OUR LEAD INTERVIEW THIS MORNING. IMMIGRATION'S BECOME A KEY ELECTION ISSUE. WHENA OWEN TALKS TO SEVERAL KIWIS SOMETIMES MISTAKEN FOR IMMIGRANTS ABOUT THE IMPACT ON THEM. OH, WHERE ARE YOU FROM? AND IT'S JUST LIKE, 'I WAS BORN HERE.' OH WELL. I'M FROM BIRKENHEAD. THEY'D YELL OUT 'CHING CHONG CHINAMAN'. THEN ` SHE'S GUIDED SOME OF OUR BIGGEST COMPANIES. BUSINESS LEADER JOAN WITHERS HAS A REVEALING NEW BOOK AND GIVES HER TAKE ON HOW MORE WOMEN CAN MAKE IT TO THE TOP. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017 AND WE'LL HAVE ANALYSIS FROM OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY; SUE BRADFORD, FORMER GREEN MP, NOW COORDINATING THE NEW LEFT-THINK TANK, ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL RESEARCH AOTEAROA; THOMAS PRYOR, A FORMER NATIONAL GOVERNMENT STAFFER, NOW GOVERNMENT RELATIONS CONSULTANT. FIRST, HERE'S CORIN. THANK, GREG. WINSTON PETERS HAS BEEN ON A TWO-WEEK REGIONAL TOUR, FINISHING WITH THE NEW ZEALAND FIRST AGM AND CONVENTION IN MANUKAU THIS WEEKEND. MR PETERS JOINS US FROM THERE NOW. GOOD MORNING. Good morning. I wonder, is your goal this campaign to change the government already form and break the neoliberal hold that this country is under? We have had a 33 year experiment which after three years was being pain and now you have three years of gain. And we have waited 30 years of gain for the majority. And my party is clear that we want economics that work for the majority and not just the elite and foreign economies and ownership. He talked with Richard Harman for your fondness for Robert Muldoon. Are you proposing a return to pre-1984 much more intervention in the economy? Richard got it 100% wrong. I said no such thing and was explaining the kind of propaganda and scam tthat accompanied the neoliberal experiment that after 33 years we have slipped right down the OECD the ownership of New Zealand's assets are offshore. 95% of our banking is foreign-owned. Eight of our top forest companies are forest owned. I was talking about the propaganda as to they got to begin the experiment because they said the country was broke. But we are now half Italian dollars debt economy. Billion* a lot of buybacks of assets you are talking about. You are talking about the buy back of the aluminium smelter. I didn't say buyback. You have to to listen to what I am saying Rather than come to your conclusions. They threatened to walk off if they didn't get a massive subsidy. My response is that you have to clean this place up before you go, so you're back at a exit and handover management and we will do the rest. We have given you a massive concession, so don't threaten us. That is what I was concerned about. Are you looking at a policy where we buy back assets and intervene and provide subsidies. Your speech of the regions made it clear that you are. With the greatest of respect, we had to buy back after privatisation air New Zealand. New Zealand railways they took the shares and $9.34 and then busted, and the taxpayer had to buy that back and we suffered from lack of rail. We are not gonna get stuck with the far neoliberals trying to excuse their useless performance while the capacity of New Zealanders to own through the Colin fund and Kerry savour our resources. You said you would subsidise dairy farms up to 7 years. If we want to clean up our environment, and we have two for international and domestic regions then we cannot expect farmers and dairy many on the bones of the unit know what to do that. Urban pollution is worse in agrarian, so as a country unlike the rest, we will clean up the country like Norway. Not paying 1.4 billion to foreign economies, but using that money with our businesses and farmers and workers to clean up our country. And I will help farmers because it's in our long-term interest. You talked about a tender 15% cut in the currency by managing our exchange rate which would benefit farmers, and then farmers should pay workers more. How will you make them pay more? We will not allow in a long-term ppeople to be brought in because we have failed to train and employ our own young people. I am off a farm in Eire where mum dad and the kids could outperform a foreign owner and Europe. And I believe in them. Will you require farmers to pay workers more? Are you going to regulate. How far are you going with intervention? I am not going to be missed described by you on this matter. I have told the farming community that we will give you tax breaks that enables you to be a more profitable industry, and in return I want you to employ New Zealanders. We are seeing our leading university in the South Island being run to the ground under National. And we will correct that. And no one can tell me that the young people in the New Zealand from a farming background aren't up to it if they are given the right help and assistance. If you did try and manage the currency, would you also implement capital controls to stop capital leaving New Zealand? I never mentioned that it all. Not even in my thinking. But if the IMF said that our currency is overvalued aand this small country is the seventh or eighth most traded currency in the world, do you think they are sitting in front of those screens on Wall Street doing it for our benefit. We are going to stop the mass misinformation and the abuse of our currency father's interests. You cannot tell me one economy and the world that has a reserve Bank operating with total disregard for the political and economic mmanufacturing employment and GDP concepts as ours is. This is ridiculous. I am sure many would agree with you. I am trying to find out if you are aware of the possible consequences which according to some economists is that you might risk capital leaving the country at which point you would need capital controls. With the great respect to those economists, you have had 33 years of seeing how it doesn't work. And I think the Minister of Finance in Taiwan knows more about a conics in all of you. I have talked a perfect has and has marvels that he has performed in Singapore I completely different backdrop. They are not relying on short-term capital and have private debt like New Zealand. It is completely different. You are completelytalking boulderdash. He forced savings on his people and look at the benefits. I tried that 20 years ago. Can I finish off what I am trying to say? This is not about you Corin or TV NZ. I am for compulsory savings. Put it all in savings under your names and change it around. Everyone voted me down, but you didn't vote down the problem and I want my country independent of our end reliance on foreign money. And that's a doctrine you have subscribed to. You have announced a number of policies such as your education policy. $4.6 billion but you say is only an extra half billion, but GST back to the regions and Off fruit and vegetables. Can you do that without going off the $1.8 billion caps that our current government has put in aand that labouring greens are buying into. They can buy into it. You have labour and Greens and National all going along with the neoliberal experiment. I never did and still don't. And there's nothing so antiseptic as saying I told you so. But I told you so back then. And now you're talking about me being profligate, and they are talking about surpluses. On GST and international tourism in New Zealand, $1.5 billion and they gave nothing back to the regions where that money was owned by the provincial economies. And the provincial economies of this country have had a gut is full of being forgotten. I just want to know would you stick to the current spending limits. No. I am not subscribing to their brand of economics. What about the depth limits? What we intend to do and have to understand why of different where taking public spending towards productivity and exports and mass growth when you take out population growth. When you take out the 2% population growth you only have 1% at the bottom of the OECD. We're gonna stop this from winning a campaign, and we want New Zealanders to know the truth. Would you run deficits in order to carry out your policies? Can you tell me why you're asking me a party that is coming far higher with support than you've ever seen why should I be constrained with other parties misguided policies. This is a fight between three different movements. National New Zealand first and labour greens. This fight is a battle for New Zealand. And we intend to win. Would you hike taxes? On your website uses a greater proportion of the tax burden taken away from those on lower income. Is there any prospect of higher income New Zealand is taking more of the share? Which part of those words sounds like a tax hike. All I have ever promised as to exporters and new market discovery exporters and to everyone who can change the outcome of this country so that we are an exporter wealthy nation, unlike now where imports cost more than now exports if you can tell us why that is not a sound policy to change the export policy by incentivise then you are out of touch with smart countries like China. And Taiwan has been doing in Singapore and Norway. On your campaign trail you talked about a new gold card for disabilities. We have about 100,000 people with various levels of disability, and yet what has been magnificent as the number of them who have tried to stay in our society and contribute to work hard and they take a nice amount of pride in it. And it is humbling going on with the help of their siblings and parents and friends and yet the state is not paying attention, and we can do a lot for them by identifying their specific needs and we could seriously help them to be greater contributors to our society and this dependent on our society. We will have a gold card for them to ensure they get the benefits of not giving up on life and doing the best they can. When I was young I saw a man with no movement in his legs yet he was the biggest maker of gates in the farming community. He never was on ACC or welfare. He was a man that was by his courage independent. I admire that. And I want to help all that I can. During the Todd Barclays affair you called for Bill English to resign do you stand by that? The trouble with New Zealand politics on TV and said is that you think there is one law for national and everyone else. He knew about a crime and used and facilitated misuse of public funds to cover it and then his thoughts to see that the person remains quiet wwithin a legal contract. So how can you work with him as a prime minister or Deputy premise? How can you support and vote for him. Who cares who I vote? It's not the National party I once knew. It's not about me how can you work with them? If you think you should resign. There is not one law for the National party and everyone else. Mr Barclay hasn't turned up. And money will go into his account. Thank you for your time. If you don't mind before you go. Can I give you some advice for the next nine weeks. Can you report what I say rather than what you think I said. And then we will get on. What is fake news? Fake news is what I see frequently on 6 o'clock news. And IN tend to make sure it doesn't prevail. Are you all right? Couldn't be better. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER AT ` YOU CAN EMAIL US AT ` OR TEXT YOUR THOUGHTS AND FIRST NAME TO 2211. KEEP THEM BRIEF. EACH TEXT COSTS 50 CENTS. WE'LL BRING IN THE PANEL AFTER THE BREAK. LET'S BRING IN OUR PANEL ` POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR RAYMOND MILLER FROM AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY. SUE BRADFORD ` FORMER GREEN MP, NOW COORDINATING NEW LEFT THINK TANK ESRA. THOMAS PRYOR ` A FORMER NATIONAL GOVERNMENT STAFFER, NOW GOVERNMENT RELATIONS CONSULTANT. What did you make of that? Classic combative Winston. As much as he denied being inspired by Muldoon, that was a Muldoon of 21st-century. It was more appealing to labour voters in the National voters. Annie said that around the push with farmers and provinces. I think they will have appeal to disenfranchised labour and national voters. You said it was a deliberate and the view. And touching on the fake news angle is that he's standing up for the little people. Whether it's media or national party that's been ignoring. He is trying to position himself as a champion for the people who are struggling. This was classic Winston Peters showing his great ability as the senior statesman of New Zealand politics, another era. He is very cunning and obscuring and refusing to answer when he didn't want to give them. And the type of people that is appealing to won't care that he's not answering those questions. It's interesting that he's placing him clearly outside the neoliberal capitalists of the other parties. And I think the Greens made a mistake going with the budget rules and now he's placing New Zealand first and the space of the regional economies and taking major steps to restore their place an agricultural pollution. So he's really stepping into whether Greens will be and not making the case because of limited themselves. As a senior observer you have people making spaghetti pizzas to be liked and then you have Winston who doesn't seem to care about who does or doesn't care. And it seems to be working. Every three years we get more of this. It is combative. We have gotten used to trump and fake news. And long before that there was Winston doing battle with the media. And he shadow boxes and is difficult to pin him down. He is experienced and clever. He loves to take issue with almost anyone. You listen to him and you are thinking does that suggest he is going to go with labour and then he backs off and then you think may be national. And then he attacks national. And this will carry through to the election. So viewers need to get used to it. Especially if these playing the kingmaker role. We didn't get time to touch on a much because he didn't want to but the education plan is $4.6 billion. All that resonates with the young people? I don't know because who knows what he will do with our money. Because policies aren't important for him and it is a personality party. I don't think he will get many young people voting forhim but he have is a charisma that no other politicians have. And I have seen footage of young people being oddly attracted to. I think they are fascinated with him but they wouldn't vote for. He is someone from another error that people aren't used to. And he didn't want to talk about devaluing the currency by 10 and 15% and that is very much Muldoon Era. So much of this policy is it the better aspects of putting money back and to our own economy and supporting local agriculture and industry and something like the Greens in the past and I hope currently would support. He is out of the Muldoon Aera and refusing to address implication of where he is going with it. $4.6 billion is a lot of money. He has very expensive policies. I don't have a problem with parties that are prepared. I think that's where labour and Greens have gone wrong. But as to whether priorities go. What is he saying about housing and welfare. He is just ignoring these very fundamental questions off huge inquality and deep poverty. Aand going back to the Muldoon solutions. You can't do both. When you're talking about things that he's talking about that is big money. Does he have to not follow through on some stuff? He doesn't. It is part of the privilege of being a small party of going into negotiations with a larger party. He talks like he's a leader of a 40 or 50% party, but only a 10% party. You can make a lot of promises and know that you won't have to deliver, because in the negotiations you'll have to back some away. It is interesting the bottom-line positions he takes, because that have been increasing in number as well. I won't go into government with another party unless you do the following. And the latest one is the tram link. You can only come in with one or two bottom-line positions or you lose all credibility. And in the last few days has been for a five. It has been very hard to know, but the thing about them is that he is very used to going into negotiations. He did it were 1996 for a long time. And 2005 he is very used to negotiating. And he knows that he can promise and not have to deliver. What does he want a fee as key parts of the labour and Green alliance. I think it is in the DNA and wants power. Deputy Prime Minister power? Or higher. But I think education minister because it comes from a family of educators Annie has quite a comprehensive education policy. He will want something where he can make a difference, but he has ambitions and will not retire next year. This is his last big chance and he is going for it. And he is doing very well at the moment. But I am hoping that people will start to see through it. He is promisingly impossible. And the charm that he has got will somehow build the powerbase he wants in this last push the power. A lot of people who feel disempowered by the fact that a vote for power is that he decides if we will have a national labour led government. For a lot of people that is unacceptable and won't open for that reason. The other problem is transparency because he has gone into coalition negotiations in the past being unclear. New Zealand first would not form a government with any government led by Jim Bolger and then he went ahead and add that. In 2005 we wouldn't deal with the Green party. And for those who voted for greens find that's not going to be the part of anything. And I think that's why people like. Anything he says you take with a grain of salt. Even his bottom line is I am dubious about. When it comes down to power he will compromise on them, but I think the people of both for him don't care about that. WITH THE ELECTION JUST 10 WEEKS AWAY, THESE KIWIS FEAR THE IMMIGRATION DEBATE COULD GET OUT OF HAND. THE DEBATE IS ON THIS PRECIPICE ALMOST AND COULD FALL INTO THE GUTTER AT ANY MOMENT. IMMIGRATION HAS BECOME ONE OF THE KEY ELECTION ISSUES. MOST POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE SAID THEY'LL MAKE CHANGES TO IMMIGRATION NUMBERS. WITH THE ELECTION JUST 10 WEEKS AWAY, SOME IMMIGRANTS, AND SOME WHO ARE SOMETIMES MISTAKEN FOR IMMIGRANTS, FEAR THAT DEBATE WILL HEAT UP. WHENA OWEN LOOKS AT THE DEBATE THROUGH THE EYES OF THOSE WHO'RE AFFECTED. I HAD SOME QUESTIONS FOR IMMIGRANT NEW ZEALANDERS. WHAT DO THEY THINK OF THE TONE OF THE CURRENT IMMIGRATION DEBATE? ARE THEY HURT BY THE DISCUSSION? ARE KIWIS WELCOMING? TO HELP ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS, I TALKED TO FIVE PEOPLE WHO ARE IMMIGRANTS OR ARE TREATED LIKE IMMIGRANTS. YOU MAY ASSUME SOMEONE YOU PASS IN THE STREET IS A RECENT IMMIGRANT, AND YOU MAY BE WRONG. ALL THROUGH GROWING UP, THERE WAS ALWAYS THAT QUESTION OF 'WHERE ARE YOU FROM?' AND IT'S JUST LIKE, 'I WAS BORN HERE.' WHEN PEOPLE ASK ME THAT, AND I SAY, 'OH, I'M FROM BIRKENHEAD.' AND THEY'RE LIKE, 'NO, WHERE ARE YOU FROM?' PAPATOETOE. (LAUGHS) SO... THE FOLLOWING QUESTION IS SOMETIMES, 'NO, BUT WHERE ARE YOU REALLY FROM?' AND THAT'S WHEN IT BECOMES OFFENSIVE BECAUSE THEY'RE DISREGARDING MY ANSWER AND SAYING, 'NO, YOU DON'T LOOK LIKE YOU SHOULD BE FROM BIRKENHEAD.' ANDREW CHEN'S TAIWANESE-BORN PARENTS WERE KEEN FOR ANDREW TO INTEGRATE. THEY ASKED HIS TEACHERS WHAT KIWI KIDS DID AND ENROLLED HIM IN SCOUTS AND CRICKET. NOW ANDREW SPENDS MOST OF HIS TIME WRITING UP HIS PHD ON ROBOTICS, BUT HE'S ALSO A KEEN OBSERVER AND WRITER ON IMMIGRATION ISSUES. WHEN THE POLITICIANS, SORT OF, PUT THE ONUS ON THE MIGRANTS AND SUGGEST THAT IT'S THEIR FAULT THAT THE HOUSING CRISIS EXISTS, THAT IS VERY CONCERNING, AND THAT EMPOWERS A LOT OF PEOPLE TO THEN TURN AROUND AND BLAME MIGRANTS. WE VERY EASILY FALL INTO SCAPEGOATING, AND THAT'S NOT WHERE I'D LIKE TO SEE THIS CONVERSATION GOING. PEOPLE FEEL MORE EMPOWERED THAT THEY SEE THEIR ROLE MODELS IN THE POLITICIANS, AND THAT MAKES THEM FEEL LIKE THEY CAN SAY THINGS THAT OTHERWISE WOULD PROBABLY BE CONSIDERED NOT OK. AND SO WE SEE INCIDENTS LIKE THE ONE IN HUNTLY A FEW MONTHS AGO. ARE YOU RECORDING YOU (BLEEP)? YOU KINDA JUST THINK OF YOURSELF AS JUST NORMAL, AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU'VE GOT THESE BEER CANS BEING THROWN AT YOU, AND YOU'RE LIKE, 'OH OK.' YES, THAT'S MEHPARA KHAN, WHO OUTSIDE A HUNTLY TOILET WAS TOLD SHE HAD NO RIGHT TO BE HERE. IT JUST THREW IT INTO THE LIMELIGHT A LITTLE BIT AND BROUGHT THE CONVERSATION TO A FRONT, BECAUSE, I GUESS, A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T THINK OF MUSLIMS IN NEW ZEALAND AS HAVING A KIWI ACCENT. ALL TOO OFTEN, IT'S ABOUT PERCEPTION. KIWIS NEVER ASK THIS GUY, WHO WOULD RATHER NOT BE NAMED, WHERE HE IS FROM. ARE YOU EVER MADE TO FEEL LIKE AN IMMIGRANT? WHEN I OPEN MY MOUTH AND THE ACCENT'S HEARD, YES. IN WHAT WAY? EYE CONTACT IS LOST IMMEDIATELY. PEOPLE WILL` NOT ALL, BUT SOME PEOPLE PUT THEIR HEAD DOWN AND WALK AWAY SHOWING NO INTEREST. OVER AT A MARKET AT MT ROSKILL, ANTONY AND HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER TELL ME THEY'RE STRUGGLING ON THE WAGES HE MAKES AS A CHEF AND SHE EARNS AT THE HOSPITAL. THE CURRENT IMMIGRATION DEBATE DOESN'T HELP. YOU'RE NOT HURT BY THAT DISCUSSION? YES, WE ARE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SATURDAY, SUNDAYS, YOU SEE IN THE OFFICE WORKING WHITE PEOPLE? NO. INDIANS ARE WORKING WEEKENDS, PUBLIC HOLIDAYS, AND WE ARE GIVING MONEY TO THE COUNTRY. LIKE, WE ARE WORKING HARD, AND WE ARE PAYING MORE TAXES. YES OR NO? IT'S THE WAY YOU LOVE IT? OF COURSE. THAT'S MY TWO SISTERS, AND THAT'S MY MOTHER. THIS IS REMUERA RESIDENT HELENE WONG. WE'RE LOOKING THROUGH HER BOOK, 'BEING CHINESE'. SHE'S OFTEN ASKED WHERE SHE'S FROM, THEN WHERE SHE'S REALLY FROM EVEN THOUGH HER FAMILY FIRST ARRIVED HERE IN THE 1880S. THEY FULLY EMBRACED KIWI LIFE, BUT AS A KID, HELENE WAS STILL SINGLED OUT. AND THEY WOULD YELL OUT, 'CHING-CHONG CHINAMAN.' OR 'FLAT NOSE' OR 'PUG NOSE' OR 'SLIT EYES'. BUT SHE SAYS FOR DECADES, CHINESE NEW ZEALANDERS WERE GOOD AT MAKING THEMSELVES INVISIBLE. THINGS CHANGED WHEN THE DOORS WERE OPENED TO A NEW WAVE OF ASIAN IMMIGRANTS IN THE LATE '80S. SUDDENLY, PEOPLE THAT LOOKED LIKE ME WERE NOT DISTINGUISHABLE, AND SO THOSE NEW MIGRANTS, THEY FLASHED THEIR ROLEXES AND WENT AND BUILT MANSIONS. THEY DIDN'T BEHAVE LIKE KIWIS, AND THEY CERTAINLY DIDN'T BEHAVE LIKE US KIWI CHINESE. SO OUT ON THE STREET, AS I SAY, I WASN'T DISTINGUISHED, SO I WAS YELLED AT AGAIN. IT WAS JUST THIS DELUGE OF INVECTIVE AGAINST ASIANS, AND WE GOT CAUGHT UP IN IT. WE WERE THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE. IF YOU THINK KIWIS ARE NOW MORE WELCOMING, MORE FRIENDLY, ASK A FEW RECENT ARRIVALS. IS THERE MUCH MIXING SOUTH AFRICANS AND KIWIS? DO YOU GET ASKED OUT A LOT? NOT AT ALL. NO. AT ALL? NOT AT ALL. MYSELF PERSONALLY, FAMILY, MY IMMEDIATE FRIENDS, NO. YOU DON'T GET ASKED TO KIWI BARBECUES? NOT AT ALL. NOPE. THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED. TO A CERTAIN EXTENT WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT OPENNESS THAT ALLOWS MIGRANTS TO COME IN AND INTEGRATE PROPERLY. PEOPLE WILL GO THROUGH THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE, SO THEY'RE MUCH MORE EASILY GOING TO JUST STAY WITHIN THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES, BECAUSE THERE'S NO OTHER SUPPORT SYSTEM FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY INTEGRATE INTO SOCIETY. THIS ZIMBABWEAN SAYS HE'S NOTICING ANOTHER SIDE EFFECT OF THAT ALIENATION BY KIWIS. I'VE ACTUALLY HEARD THIS MORE THAN ONCE. 'RIGHT, 'LET'S STICK TOGETHER,' RIGHT, 'AND BUGGER THE KIWIS. WE'LL SHOW THEM.' YOU KNOW, THEY ALWAYS SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, FROM THAILAND OR WHEREVER, RIGHT. AND WE MUST STICK TOGETHER, RIGHT, AGAINST THE KIWIS. AND I SAID, 'NO, YOU'RE LIVING IN THEIR DAMN COUNTRY.' BUT ANTONY AND HIS FAMILY ARE TOO BUSY DEALING WITH THE BASICS OF LIFE IN A NEW COUNTRY ` AN EXPENSIVE ONE. WE ARE BOTH LOOKING AFTER THE BABY AND WORKING FULL-TIME. VERY HARD. AND WITH THE ELECTION JUST MONTHS AWAY, EVERYONE IS EXPECTING THE IMMIGRATION DEBATE TO RAMP UP. RIGHT NOW, THE DEBATE IS ON THIS PRECIPICE ALMOST, AND IT COULD FALL INTO THE GUTTER AT ANY MOMENT, AND I THINK A LOT OF US ARE WAITING, THINKING, 'OH GOD, IT'S GONNA HAPPEN. IT'S GONNA HAPPEN.' WE'VE SEEN THE RESULTS OF DIVISIVE POLITICS IN PLACES LIKE THE STATES AND IN THE UK, AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THAT SAME TYPE OF POLITICS ISN'T PLAYED OUT HERE, BECAUSE WORDS HAVE AN IMPACT, AND THE IMPACT IS USUALLY ON THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ALREADY HERE. AFTER THE BREAK, BUSINESS LEADER JOAN WITHERS ON GETTING MORE DIVERSITY IN THE BOARDROOM. JOAN WITHERS IS A MEMBER OF A SMALL GROUP OF WOMEN WHO'VE CLIMBED THE CORPORATE LADDER TO REACH THE SO-CALLED C-SUITE ` CEO OR SENIOR EXECUTIVE LEVEL. IN HER LATEST BOOK, 'A WOMAN'S PLACE', SHE DESCRIBES HER JOURNEY FROM STAY-AT-HOME MUM TO CEO OF TWO MAJOR MEDIA COMPANIES AND BOARD CHAIR AND DIRECTOR. SHE RECENTLY STOOD DOWN AS CHAIR OF THE TVNZ BOARD. AT THE TIME OF WRITING, JUST 13% OF NZX-LISTED COMPANY DIRECTORS WERE WOMEN. AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THERE'S ONLY ONE WOMAN CEO HEADING UP A TOP 50 LISTED COMPANY. GOOD MORNING, JOAN WITHERS. HOW'S THAT HAPPENED? Yours is a remarkable story coming through. How come there haven't been others? It is disappointing that we are where we are today. I used to say this will be an evolution and we will see more women coming through. That is happening to an extent but the progress has been glacially slow. We have to pull woman through the pipeline and get them into more senior roles. They can then have the opportunity to take up governance roles. Is still an old boys network? The women aren't coming through still. I believe the old boys network has largely gone. There are small vestiges of it. I think the way we have to address this is think about what it is that is making some women decide they actually don't want to progress. I was talking to a large listed company director, and he said there were certain woman that didn't want to make the compromises involved. They didn't want to bear some of the scars that life and senior executive roles causes. Is it family or living in a cutthroat corporate world? It is a mix, and it is different for a lot of women. They do set their site on senior careers and set themselves up to work around the compromises. Other women think it is too tough and too hard, an organisation I am referring to, there have been a number of cuts. There is tough. Are women less inclined to make those tough decisions to fire people? Some women think do I really want and need this? They think of themselves much more broadly then their identity and a corporate career. There are far more men who believe that the role they hold is very important to them personally and as significant and society. I think we're men traditionally going back 30 years ago, there wasn't the option because the men tended to be the breadwinners. They kept going, and women are looking out more broadly and thinking what they want to do with their life and being more innovative. You say in your book that women shouldn't feel guilty about nannies and cleaners ` anything that can help them achieve. I can't understand why you wouldn't be prepared to buy the support and assistance you need. Do people feel guilty? I think some women do. I don't know why, because if you are earning money you have to balance your lifestyle. The prospect of cleaning your car on a Sunday afternoon before you get the kids stuff ready, why would you do that stuff if you don't have to? You talk about those tough calls ` job cuts and decisions. How did you manage that? I knew making those decisions and implementing them is that it was acting in the best interests of the organisation. I say and each restructuring scenario I have been involved in, there has been an enormous amount of work done to make sure the people that are affected are treated fairly. My first example and a senior leadership role, I was part of the Auckland Star in representing the sales and marketing team. I had to let 25% of the staff go with 48 hours notice. I involved the union official of the time and said if we have a last-in, first out list, we had no hope of surviving. Because it was a generous redundancy package ` it was the people who were retained that were upset because they saw their colleagues getting a large payout and doing other things ` there was no alternative then to reduce headcount. Do you believe in quotas, forcing companies, like the NZX, to promote women? I don't accept quotas. I think that is demeaning. It is potentially going to cause organisations to just make appointments by filling a metric. Are the incentives and other ways to do it? And is moving slow. There has been an incentive in the last year to improve diversity. We have the breakthrough leaders forum. I am on the board of global women. They have ownership of the champions the change initiative, a bunch of men and women who were looking at the practical ways how organisations can become diverse. Young people can sit around a board table and learn about governance, and that is paying dividends in terms of improving the pipeline. You've had a big role in big companies. Where do you see the future going for television? Would you think it will end up? My background was newspapers and then I moved on to radio. I only had governance roles and TV. Media generally gets into your blood. It is fascinating. If it was my money, I would be looking at multiplatform media organisations like we are starting to see. TV has done quite well in the last 15 years. The advertising revenue has reduced 3%-5%. Should we have a state funded broadcaster? That would be my answer. I am not the Minister so I can say this easily, but TV NZ has done extremely well as a commercial entity. It has been successful in terms of audience and revenue share. I would let TV NZ go into private ownership and would look at what you could do and a multiplatform sense and having a public broadcaster. Radio New Zealand is moving into other areas. You are involved in the deregulation of radio New Zealand. Winston Peters was interviewed this morning and talking about pre-1984 days. From the post deregulation era, do you think this has been a success? I think so. We are pretty well off, so it is competitive, but what we see is that deregulation, especially in radio,meant that we were better served in the quality of radio versus other jurisdictions that I have been in. Definitely. STAY WITH US. THE PANEL'S BACK AFTER THE BREAK. AND THEY'LL HAVE THEIR HITS AND MISSES OF THE POLITICAL WEEK PLUS YOUR FEEDBACK. LET'S BRING OUR PANEL BACK IN. Welcome to Joan who has joined us for the last panel. You have been at the top echelon of the greens and parliament. Did that resonate with you earlier? I understand why many women would not want to be in that position that Joan has put herself and. It is psychopathic being part of a corporate company. I appreciate the tremendous journey you have been on. When you put yourself in that place to maximise profit and expense of your workers, to be part of sacking people and making people redundant, what women would want to be part of that? They probably could do this but they don't want to. Some men wouldn't want to either. I appreciate what Sue is saying, but these entities wouldn't survive in some instances unless those hard calls were made. If you step up to those roles and you take the salary, you have to take those responsibilities. I imagine it is a tremendous amount of guilt, because you will miss birthdays because you are firing people and changing things and working late at night. It is no bed of roses. I had enormous support at home. If you go into senior roles, you have to take the good and the bad and look at it and say am I acting in the best interest of the company? Joan as against quotas. What are your thoughts? Because the pace of change has been so slow, it has been happening for three decades, The changes aren't terrible. I find it still white male centred. I wonder at some stage a future government will seriously consider it. Norway has a 40% female quota for the boards,and that has been mixed. You have a small number of women who carry a lot of board appointments. Politically things are better and Parliament. It is 30%. The current cabinet is 35% women. It is still glacial. You have MMP, and it has stalled. Joan, your back story will resonate with many women because it is an interesting story. I do wonder, like Thomas, about the fact that so many women are now going into degrees like accountancy and law and doing MBAs. A number are in their 40s and 50s, yet we are not seeing progress. Do you think there is an opportunity for short-term solutions like quotas doing an initial lift like political parties? I don't think that will help, because the risk is you are not appointing people on merit. You have to do that. There are diverse people out there who can fill these roles. There are search firms and executive recruitment firms asking if they are casting the net wide enough. We have to reinforce that, otherwise we do risk a future government saying that they will impose quotas. I wonder if the landscape has also changed. I can see Nadia Lim, who head their own companies with heaps of money. There are entrepreneurs out there, which is fantastic. Corporate life is not for everyone but there are a number of women who do aspire to these big roles. We have to help. You think it is up to companies to help make this happen? It is good for business. Every shred of evidence suggests that having diversity on your management team and board is good for business. That should come on businesses to do it. Our company is asking themselves about what they can do to actually step up to that level of diversity and representation? Absolutely, and looking at ways practically, more flexible working hours, putting support behind women so they do have the opportunity to get there. There was a lot more practical than it was when you started out in business in the 1970s. You don't have to be there every hour. No you don't. You have to make women feel like they are involved in the organisation. They need to make maternity leave easier as well. WELL, YOUR FEEDBACK IS ALL ABOUT OUR INTERVIEW EARLIER WITH NZ FIRST LEADER WINSTON PETERS. JAN STEPHENSON TWEETED THAT WINSTON IS THE ONLY PERSON THAT TALKS ANY SENSE IN THIS COUNTRY! SHOULD HAVE LISTENED YEARS AGO. JILL PEACH EMAILED SAYING NZ FIRST IS GOING TO BE A HUGE WINNER IN THE ELECTION AND ENGLISH WILL BE AT BEST DEPUTY PM. HAYLEY MURDOCH TWEETED WINSTON JUST A GRUMPY OLD MAN THAT COULDN'T ACTUALLY SAY HOW HE WAS GOING TO PAY FOR ANYTHING. RAQUEL BLACKBURN SAID THE INTERVIEW WAS LIKE 'BOXING A GLACIER'. My HIT of the week as labour, it is dangerous to say we are not delivering tax cuts in this environment. It will be interesting to see what happens. Well done to Labour for differentiating yourself from national. Barry Coates said that if the greens are shut out of any post-election coalition deal, they might try push another election. That will be terrible for the greens. Let's see how the cards fall after the election. Sue Bradford. Contrary to Raymond, Turei and Coates are taking the greens into a space they haven't been before. They are showing why they don't want anything to do with that party and the reasons why. They want to get their own votes based on the party. Greens and NZ first voters don't cross over. We have had to homeless people die on the streets of Auckland in the past couple of weeks, and Bill English has not said a thing about it. They need to acknowledge that. I have gone overseas for this, and President Marcon has shown from how to behave with the most uncomfortable handshake. I can understand why Sue said it was a hit for the greens. MARAE IS NEXT. REMEMBER Q+A REPEATS TONIGHT AT 11.35 PM. THANKS FOR WATCHING AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THOSE WERE THE QUESTIONS, AND THOSE WERE THE ANSWERS. THAT'S Q+A. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY MORNING AT 9. CAPTIONS BY JAKE EBDALE AND ANTONY VLUG. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. COPYRIGHT ABLE 2017