We were convinced the first few days, as we became government, that we'd be a three-year Labour government. Oh, New Zealand was stuffed. It was` (SIGHS) It was just dreadful. I couldn't win. My job was to save the furniture. The caucus was broken. People wouldn't work. They were all on long holidays. But we didn't have them. We kept working. As long as you provided a united front, you win. You don't, you lose. I couldn't believe the lack of courage by these people. And they know they should work for you, and they know they should make a stand, and they're silent. That is lack of courage. I said to Roger, 'Why don't we sell the country to the Japanese?' Roger did go a bit off. 'You probably don't believe in class ` I do.' The greatest betrayal we can make of our people is not to care. We care. I'm proud of what the Labour Party's done, and we can do it again. When the queue came, I knew she had the numbers. That's why I brought it on. They had all my staff in a row ` people you know, people you like, people who now have got good jobs in government services. Scissors cut all their cards and told them to leave that day. Does politics have to be that brutal? Oh, probably. (LAUGHS) Probably. I was brutal too in my day, I suppose. Mike Moore's time as leader of the Labour Party came to an abrupt end less than a month after the 1993 election, rolled by his deputy, Helen Clark. Back in 1990, he'd been prime minister for only 59 days, then spent three years as leader of the opposition, trying to rebuild a fractured Labour Party torn apart by Rogernomics. But the coup still came, even though, against all expectations, he had led Labour from 29 seats to 45 seats at that 1993 election, and nearly won. That was a huge gamble, and it came off. I mean, we were back in the ring. We were within a couple of seats of winning. I thought after the election, we'd be cheered at. Cheered, hooray! (LAUGHS) I might have got thanked and then axed. (CHUCKLES) But the axe went before even thank yous. I was furious, um, because I could see what would happen. And it was a hell of a fight. The caucus... was broken. People wouldn't work. They were all on long holidays. Cos they were exhausted. This bloody party and the members were exhausted. Were they trying to engineer it so you would lose and Helen Clark would take over? Is that effective` Was it that simple or...? Is that going too far? It's probably going` Yeah, no, it was that simple. And you believed you'd earned another shot. You'd got to the` I thought we had, actually. And I was busy at the time going around the seats we'd just lost, and I didn't pay attention, and this was my fault to the caucus. And then... there were no phone calls or anything. They never said anything. The, um... And then I thought, 'Bugger ya. I'm not going to fight this way.' STAMMERS: If you were going to do this, you can have it. These MPs are so weak. They're not even prepared to let you sit in the Parliament and hear you speak. What is it like to lose power? Well, I hardly had it, you know. Being leader of the opposition's not power. What do you want to say... about Helen Clark's role at that time? Ring me. (LAUGHS) Ring us. It's OK. It's natural. You haven't talked? No, we never talked. Until the chop came. Did you still harbour that vision... to be prime minister throughout the '90s? I thought when Helen took it, I wouldn't... Should've learned from the Australians that you can bounce back, but I couldn't bounce back. I knew that my heart was broken. I believed in the Labour Party so much, and I couldn't believe in the lack of courage by these people ` the lack of guts. In the end, it's the silence of your friends that keeps you... that you remember, not the misdeeds of those who dislike you. The Labour Party has been Mike Moore's lifelong love. He grew up poor, left school at 14 and got into Parliament aged just 23, one of the country's youngest-ever MPs. He would eventually rise to head the World Trade Organisation, the highest international position ever held by a New Zealander, and became a respected champion of globalisation. Yet, the path there was never easy. At 30, he had aggressive cancer and was given just months to live. At 40, he was given two months to save a government. It's 1990. The David Lange-Roger Douglas government lies in ruins. The switch to Geoffrey Palmer a year earlier hasn't worked, so a desperate caucus turns to Mike Moore to save their seats. I couldn't win. My job was to save the furniture. A number had come to see me before,... six months earlier, oh, I don't know... Anyway, it was just common talk, and I said, 'No, get out of it. You've got a leader, back him.' Well, the polls were in free fall. We did some polling; we would have lost Onehunga, for God's sake. And I decided to do it. Why did you decide to do it? Because I thought I could pick the vote up by 5%, 10%. To save enough so we could get back in six or nine years. There were dangers. Because the cold political calculation might well have been to let Palmer lose and then pick up with a fresh slate after the '90 election. Yes. Why did you not take that course? Because I thought we were terminal. Do you remember the feeling when the numbers were yours and you had the job as prime minister? Do you remember that? Look, we had nothing going. There were things unanswered. The policy wasn't formulated. There was no money ` all the things. We just closed the show down and went for it. Did you allow yourself a moment of thinking, 'My God, I'm the prime minister of New Zealand'? I must've, but I didn't. I can't think of that. I don't think of the shining moment. No? No. Again, a former adviser we spoke to said it's a bit like, you know, being subbed on to the All Blacks in the last 10 minutes, if you like. You'd always wanted to play for the All Blacks; you always wanted to be prime minister. That's true. Is it a bit like that? Yes, that's true. But I was thinking three, six years out... and having the party in a position where it could fight. Did you get to enjoy any of being prime minister, or was it just flat-tack campaigning at that point? I enjoyed the DPS guys. They were a good bunch of people. As it got worse and worse... We had no money, hell... Um,... (CHUCKLES SOFTLY) Yvonne's mother, Yvonne, and I made the sandwiches for the party on Saturday night on Friday night. And we went to the party. It was a night, eh. And the DPS guys said ` actually, I'd forgotten this ` the other night, 'I remember when you lost the election.' 'Oh yeah.' He said, 'You were sweeping the floor out afterwards.' Said, 'Yeah, so what? That's the way it is.' Sweeping the floor of the hall, weren't we... Yeah. ...at the, uh, wake. You were probably the last working-class prime minister we had. Probably. Probably. Just a working-class boy. I remember reading an article of my mother ` an interview with my mother ` and she said in 1951, the waterside strike, she pushed a pram around Kawakawa, and... (LAUGHS) under me, I was 2 years old, Labour Party leaflets were pushed out, cos they were illegal in '51. So she's pretty staunch. And she taught me a lot too. You grew up above a shop; it was a second-hand shop in Kawakawa? Below a shop, actually. (LAUGHS) And there were holes in the floor, which were drilled, so the water would come in the floods, and it'd be pulled out. Across up there, there was a long drop. It was always embarrassing, cos it was the main road of Kawakawa, going up there and maybe some kids coming through. Yeah, that was ours. So that was pretty modest? Yeah. Well, Father died when I was 5. Must have been a profound impact, your dad dying so young. In my` One of my earliest memories was, um, when we came into the classroom, the teacher calling me and saying, 'Oh, you go home with her.' So I ate my school lunch on the way home. He died. There's a great story about when you left Parliament for the first time in '75, or booted out, depending on how you look at it, that the only job you could get was second-in-charge of a one-way bridge. (CHUCKLES) It was. I was quite proud of that. There's nothing wrong with that as a living. But as it became quite a fun` the Tories would attack us. I couldn't work it out. It was pure snobbery. It was bloody good money. From 8 o'clock Saturday morning to 8 o'clock Monday morning, I got a 40-hour week wage. It was bloody good. You left school at 16. 15. 15. Why? 14, actually, because my birthday was in... January. I went to the freezing works, and, um,... worked there. Why did you leave school as a teenager? Well, everyone did. My brother went to the army ` 16. That's the way we were. It was Far North, of course. Yeah, and you talk and write about booze and cars living in Northland. Where do politics fit into that? Um, I led a double life in many ways. On one hand, I had my friends and mates from up north, and then on the other hand, I had the Labour people. I had two... two sets of people. Still do. Did you see yourself as a working-class prime minister? Probably some of my weaknesses are basic ` they're working-class weaknesses, aren't they? Are they? What are they? We haven't got time to go into those. But I imagine you mentioned those stories like... sweeping the floor afterwards, your companionship with those police officers who'd helped you out. I presume you mentioned those because... they are the stories you respect about character and the good things about the working class. Is that right? Oh, yep. The working class were great. They were very good to me. The Labour Party is` really, we're full now of people who are upper-class nature, private schools, and who now lecture to us about what we should do, and I find that very funny. Do you find it funny? Yeah, because it's uneasy. Because it's not true. Authenticity. Yes. And... They can't help it if they went to a rich school. They can't help it if they had parents who lived together. They can't help that they've got everything, and we've got nothing. But don't have everything and then shit on it and say, 'Oh, we're poor.' They're not poor. How formative was that upbringing for you in your leadership style as a politician? You are those experiences. Those strands of influence are the mixtures that make you a leader and make you understand what's going on. You learn a lot more from these messengers than you will from anybody else. Cos these guys go in, and everyone's having a beer. They don't even talk to them, don't recognise they have a view of things. There's a caucus meeting where we had a terrible row. Someone said, 'God, keep it down, will you? We've got the messengers sitting outside.' And I said, 'Oh, they're more Labour than we are, mate. They're more Labour than we are.' When Mike Moore first came to Parliament in 1972, two giants of New Zealand politics were emerging with very different paths ahead. Labour's 'Norm' Kirk was hugely popular ` a working-class prime minister who'd built his own house and inspired his own pop song. (EBONY'S 'BIG NORM') # A great national figure is our Big Norm. # The hero of our commune is... # Big Norm. # But he was not long for the job or the world. On the other side of politics, Rob Muldoon was National's Deputy Leader. A hugely successful and aggressive politician, Muldoon would not be content at number two for long and inspired his own song. # Most everybody likes Sir Rob, as he's quite a man. # And if anybody should need some help, old Rob will sure lend a hand. # The young Mike Moore decided to make his name attacking his most feared opponent. Yeah, that was basically it. Actually, there's an old quote of Winston Churchill ` when he arrives in Westminster, he said, 'How do you make a name for yourself around here?' He asked Lloyd George, and Lloyd George said, 'Find the most hated, powerful man and attack him.' So he attacked Lloyd George. (LAUGHS) Do you remember meeting him for the first time? Oh yeah. We were in the... entrance to Parliament buildings downstairs. We were introducing ourselves. Muldoon comes up and introduces himself. God, I was an arrogant bugger. 'My name's Moore, what's yours again?' Crushed him, you see. And pretty bad-mannered. You were 23. Mm. They should have made me prime minister then ` I knew every bloody thing. 23 years old, and you take Eden by 788 votes, I think it was. Something like that, yeah. And this was a pretty safe National seat at the time. Friends rang me up, said, 'You fool, you shouldn't have won.' (CHUCKLES) 'You're gonna be hammered in that seat in the future.' Were you bit of a larrikin in those days? Yeah, I think we talked too much ` a group of us. Couldn't believe our luck. Yeah. What were your feelings towards Muldoon? Was it fear, admiration? Um, wasn't fear, wasn't admiration. It was... fascination ` this guy could accrue so much power to himself and use it so strongly ` and disgust, when he used security intelligence files in the Parliament, when he attacked people the way he did. And no one's done that since. It was terrible. There were people frightened of him; his cabinet were frightened of him. There's a lot of brave people now, but they weren't brave at the time. Do you have to have people frightened of you to a degree when you're leader? I think there should be a level of apprehension. Did they have that of you? Probably not enough. And Kirk ` your memories of him? I always thought that Kirk was a great man. You're allowed to have heroes when you're young, and he was a hero. He was a heroic figure ` working-class boy, with all of the weaknesses of working-class people, and he... I admired him, loved him. The weaknesses of working-class people ` what do you mean by that? Well, on issues of gay rights and things like that ` he had no time for that rubbish, you know. I believed in gay rights and these sorts of things. What happened... What destroyed that government ` we were very unlucky. We had the oil crisis. Oil prices went from US$3 a barrel to about US$12 a barrel, and we weren't able to handle it. We didn't handle it. He dies, of course, in office ` extraordinary. I think August of '74. Your memories of that time? Um... I was in denial, of course. 'He'll be back on Monday. 'He'll sort it out.' (CLEARS THROAT) Then when he dies, it all becomes obvious. And I was at my parents' place ` not in Eden ` and I drove back to Eden, and I went round the rest homes, and the lights were on. Terrible. So much optimism and hope, wasn't there? And to have that cynical bastard Muldoon take it. Of course, I was a child; it's not perfect, but we had hope. We traded hope for a few shillings. Muldoon won in 1975 and ruled for three terms in a highly-controlled style, operating as finance minister and putting a tight rein on the New Zealand economy. Labour's luck only began to change after Mangere MP David Lange took the leadership in 1983. Lange would sweep to power the following year, only to be told the day after the election that the country was nearly broke and the dollar must be devalued. Labour's kitchen cabinet met at the Mangere DB Hotel to decide what to do. Palmer, Lange, (CLEARS THROAT) Douglas and me ` that's all there was. And we had, um,... Treasury people up to explain what's happened. And we were aghast at the figures. On the phone to Muldoon, I was on the other line, and Lange said, 'Well, you either turn the government over to us or do what we say.' WHISPERS: 'And I said, "Tell him we're all going to Government House on Tuesday. '"That'll scare the bastard."' 'Oh, we're all going to Government House and see the Governor-General about it.' And the deal was to devalue. So Lange's talking to Muldoon, and you're listening on another line, and meanwhile, what's happening to the`? (BLOWS RASPBERRY) We estimated to lose $400 million in the first day of something. And so that heightens the... anticipation of what's gonna happen. (CHUCKLES) And you feel sorry for those new backbenchers who arrived all bushy-tailed ` find out how hard it was going to be. Lange described you as 'incurably ambitious.' (LAUGHS) He said... better than that. Oh, he said some other things as well. (LAUGHS) Was there always that drive to become prime minister for you? Yeah, but I did think David was good. It was quite a meteoric rise. What was it about him? Well, size was part of it. And it was part a reflection in nostalgia for Norman Kirk. He was filling that space. Some ways, yes. And perhaps we projected to David our own dreams. And that's what a leader should do ` they should receive projections of their supporters and implement what they believe in. What was New Zealand like at that time? Oh, New Zealand was stuffed. It was` (SIGHS) We had a closed economy, and all that means... All sorts of things were wrong ` the import control system, backed that up. The National Party won because of the farmers' votes. They had the import control, and that's where it got its money from, those businesses, and it was a disgrace. And we decided to slam it, get rid of it. Crony capitalism, effectively. Yes, it was crony capitalism. And we decided, a group of us in the '70s, to do it differently if we had the chance. Do you think that people, even today, understand why those moves to open up the economy were necessary? People would be hurt, but we would help them as much as we can. Never was the health vote cut; never was education cut. Those core issues were funded. And it was a good thing, and everyone was in favour, for God's sake. Helen was ` everyone. Because the perception now, almost a common wisdom, is 'Oh, it was an ambush, Rogernomics.' QUIETLY: Oh, bullshit. It wasn't. That's to make themselves look better. They knew what was going on. The talk that we didn't discuss this is just false. We discussed it all the time. It was a very incredible caucus, actually. A lot of bright people with different points of view ` Caygill, Hercus, Geoffrey, Anderton, Prebble. These people were virtuous; they're worth steel. They're good. Did you ever feel that what... your government was doing was betraying the Labour Party? No. No, I didn't. I was a creature of the Labour Party. I think we were roughly, you know` roughly right. What do you mean? All the things we did ` inflating the dollar. The things that are important, things I did in trade ` opening trade, the trade round, the rest of it. It was all part of it. You can build your house, get your house furnished, and get your whiteware ` fridges, all your whiteware for very little now. People go overseas and find it's more expensive. That's good for us. And unemployment's pretty low now. Because it takes time. It takes time. And the biggest, um,... misjudgement was time. You're saying that you went too fast, maybe? Yeah. But maybe if we'd not done it, we'd not got there. And... Roger did go a bit off. He went too ACT-y, you know. He didn't have a sense of humour about it. He'd become quite demonic. And Prebble ` God. (CHUCKLES) Prebble just enjoyed massacring things. What do you mean by that? He just seemed to get enjoyment out of smashing things up. About the controversy...? Rail or something like that. I don't think we should've sold rail. I went to the toilet and dry vomited when we sold THC. I was` Seriously? Yes. The THC, or Tourist Hotel Corporation, was just one company out of $8 billion of assets sold by the fourth Labour Government ` New Zealand Steel, Petrocorp, Post Office Bank, Air New Zealand, State Insurance, Telecom and more. The justification was economic efficiency and paying off debt. It was done at rapid speed by a government claiming the country was heading for bankruptcy and there was no alternative. Another 10,000 votes, jobs gone and everyone roared with laughter ` gallows humour. We were convinced for the first few days, when we became government, that we'd be a three-year Labour government again. Once. Really? If we did what we're gonna do, you won't win the election. And, um... And we laughed about it and said, 'Well, you know, we'll all be out of here before we're 50.' David was the only guy who has to get a job. But we did what was right. Everything else had been tried before. Did you realise the social upheaval that would happen as a result of that? Yeah, but we didn't have a huge upheaval, for heaven's sake. This was manufactured history. It wasn't thousands and thousands on the streets every day. A lot of people lost their jobs, though. Yeah, sure. I mean, a lot of people got their jobs as well, and... roundabout wasn't fast enough. Despite the economic upheaval, the Lange government was making more popular change on the social front ` declaring New Zealand nuclear-free and decriminalising homosexuality. Promising gain after the pain, Labour romped home in 1987, and for the first time in a generation, had a second term. But things were about to unravel, and Minister Mike would find himself at the centre of the storm. Was David Lange a good prime minister? He was in the first three years. There's more than one David Lange. He was great at the press conferences; he was great at Cabinet. He understood it. We all were left free to do our jobs ` I thought we were. Maybe that was a management decision or maybe he'd just rather go home with a big bottle of Coke. We handled the hard work. First three years, I thought it was fabulous, and then it started to happen. Why did it happen? Well, there are various theories. David... (CHUCKLES SOFTLY) He discovered fast cars when he was prime minister. He got on the grog when he was prime minister. He never did those things before he was prime minister. We always thought, 'He's a good guy ` doesn't drink beer.' And he was out there. And suddenly he discovers these things when he's prime minister. So I'm running round the world selling butter; he's running around the desks chasing something else. And that's how it went. He was a good` There was a lot of good to David. And he should've held the line. I thought I let him down too, that I hadn't offered him the support I should've. How do you mean? Maybe he was lonely and isolated, and we were all lonely and isolated in Wellington. And maybe he was just too isolated. He was funny, though. I mean, he was bloody unhelpful from time to time too, by being funny about my good self when I was going for the WTO job. He says, 'Mike Moore's got a... 'a mind... 'which looks like it's been wired by a Ukrainian... electrician.' And it was bloody funny. But it didn't look good. He says in his biography that he'd called Geoffrey Palmer back from overseas to be acting prime minister because, in his words, 'God knows what Mike Moore would do.' You know, I found that quite hurtful. I didn't know that, if that is true. Dunno. Maybe he believed that. He didn't do it all the time, though. It was a joy` I was acting prime minister a couple of times. What about this theory that's also put about that David Lange was somehow the puppet, the communicator, but that the real work was being done by perhaps yourself and Roger Douglas and David Caygill? That he was somehow` Oh, that's unfair. It was a relief not to have a prime minister staring over your shoulder. I think that's unfair. But maybe he didn't have great powers of concentration. He got bored with it very quickly. Did he? How did he chair cabinet? Cabinet began with a whole lot of jokes, and we'd all tell him stories ` hopefully he could use in his press conference later. And I wrote` I had a fair number of stories too. And then we got down to it and just, 'click, click, click, click.' It was good. So no raging arguments in cabinet? No. For the first three years, presumably. Not even after that? No. Not even after it. There weren't raging arguments. Maybe people... raged under their breath. Maybe we should've. Maybe we should've had it out. Then came the knockout blow. Black Tuesday, October, 1987 ` the sharemarket crash. ARCHIVE: 'Auckland followed the other major world markets this morning. 'Investors bailed out, putting the chalkies in high gear and the market in free-fall. 'Panic selling in the wake of the Wall Street crash wiped more than $4 billion off the market value 'in less than an hour.' Kiwis had been hugely enthusiastic buyers of shares. In minutes, their portfolios had been wiped out in a massive blow that dented economic confidence for years. Roger Douglas had a radical plan to revive that confidence ` massive tax cuts and more privatisation. David Lange objected to his flat tax package, called for his now-famous 'cup of tea', and the key relationship between prime minister and finance minister never recovered. As long as we provided a united front, you win. When you don't, you lose. And that goes back to the... the tax paper that... that David and Roger ran ` a flat tax. And you think about that photograph, who was there, who wasn't there. I was not there. I wouldn't be there. At that point, I became disgusted. OK. The flat tax package ` you're saying that you opposed it. Mm. I'm not in the picture and photograph. I would not oppose things publically. Not how I'd do it. I went to Lange and said, 'You can't do that.' I think flat tax was too far. We are a party that... has to be some feeling of equity. This was to cut tax from 48 to 23, flat tax, a guaranteed minimum family income and a mass privatisation sale at the end of '87, to try and lurch the market back post-crash, right? It would've, actually. It would've worked. I mean, we` Why did you oppose it, then? What you'd be left with wasn't pretty. I said to, um,... Roger, 'Why don't we... sell the country to the Japanese?' If we get a million dollars` 300` $3 million` a million dollars for every New Zealander, we can do what we like with our lives. It won't work. There is such a thing as a country. There is such a thing as society, and it was just too big. And I believe in public ownership of a few things. That was signed off by cabinet, though. I think so, yeah. But at that point... I'd been to see Lange, and I said, 'Oh, I won't fight ya, but, you know, think about this, mate. 'This changes the nature and character of our country.' At that point, he'd gone too far. Yeah. Yeah. Did you agree with most of the thrust of the rest of it? I mean, looking back` Oh, yes. Of course I do. Yes. And everybody in New Zealand does, and every political party does. Cos none of the political parties opposed the basic tenets` basic constructs we put up. Why is it, then, that in a lot of comfortable company, it's considered almost a swear word, 'Rogernomics'? Well, that's the Labour Party for ya. And also Roger rather disgraced himself by going to ACT. Helen and Michael Cullen had to pretend we were different. That was rather sad. See, when the party attacks its previous leaders, it loses ground. It does. Australia's interesting. They always... Whitlam's honoured. Hawke is honoured. They're honoured because they're leaders and they're doing what they can for their country. And you haven't observed that tradition in New Zealand? No. No. I go to Aussie to feel comfortable. You do? Yes. Well, I used to. Got some good mates there. Mike Moore's primary role in that fourth Labour government was as trade minister, leading long trade delegations, sometimes for six weeks at a time. He famously promoted the lamb burger, a way of trying to say New Zealand needed to add diversity and value to its exports. Later, he would become a leading international voice for globalisation as director-general of the WTO, and also serve as New Zealand's ambassador to Washington. But as political writer Jane Clifton has remarked, 'He was like the opposite of L&P ` world famous, but not in New Zealand.' Best thing I ever did for my country was leave it. Anyhow... No, you jest there, but never a truer word spoken than a jest. I mean, you believe that, eh? Mm. Yep. So what does that mean? Does it mean that the country turned its back on you a bit? No, no. The country didn't` I don't blame the country. This happens. We're all adults; this is how it happens. We all got long pants; this is how it happens. For example, when I went to America to be ambassador, I said to Murray, 'You're not gonna change the nuclear policy, are you?' He says, 'Nope'. 'OK, and there's the TPP.' He said, 'Yes, those are the two important things.' Funnily enough, they're both Labour Party policies. Yes. You know, I was` And I used to have people stay and members stay, and I say, 'Well, you know, here I am, pushing the Labour Party policies to the end.' And they were. It was quite amusing. Who do you credit with making New Zealand nuclear-free? Lange, I think. Because he told the Americans he wasn't going to do it. And, um,... they were shocked by him, and they regarded his` that as a break of trust. I didn't know that till I went up there. When you went up there ` you mean being ambassador in 2010 ` what sort of reception to that did you walk into? Oh, some of them were pretty hostile. You always backed the anti-nuclear stance? Yes. It became more than a nuclear thing; it became a symbol of who we are, as what New Zealanders are proud of themselves for. So we can keep our nuclear position and have a relationship with others. And we've done both. Did you think, at the time, we would be able to do that? No, I didn't know. I didn't know if it was on or off, and neither did the government. We had to work it out. Is there an anti-Americanism still in New Zealand? Yes, there is, actually. I find that curious, as to why people are opposed to Americans. I mean, America, um... We have different rules when we're dealing with the Americans than when we're dealing with the Poms or we're dealing with Europeans, and we're too hard on them. As you see at the moment, they're a democracy. They've got a hell of a lot of points of view. It's not one country; it's many countries. Their system is so complex that they don't know what the hell's happening themselves. But out of this, Trump will be trampled, because he's not a good man. If he survives it, we hold our breath, and we wait until he's kicked out. You believe that Americans... end up doing the right thing. Yeah. Yeah, there's a Churchill quote, 'They do the right thing, eventually, after considering the alternatives at great length.' Yeah. But they're incredibly venal. I mean, sugar is one of the products that wrecks TPP. America has protection on sugar. America wants sugar, somebody else wants so-and-so and so-and-so, and that whole thing collapses. TPP should be supported, but if it's opposed, it should be opposed cos it's not going far enough. But that's as far as we could get ` 12 countries. Bank it and go for the rest. At one time as an MP, you made a conscious decision to learn about trade and economics. Do you remember about that and about why you did that? I did that when I lost my seat in '75, and trade was an area the Labour Party didn't think much about, so no competition. So I dug into it, and I kept reading and reading. When we changed our policy to support closer economic relations with Australia, that was the key. It meant a lot of our policies changed, and party conference didn't like it. But it was right. I was interested to read that you started to dig into CER as a way to try and take on Muldoon and then found that, actually, it wasn't a bad deal. Is that the way you went into it? That's right. It was a good deal, and Muldoon was very reluctant. Then we got in and advanced it. When we spoke to one of the former advisors for you, they said that trade was your way of trying to get the working people to get their hands on the loot. Is that how you see it? Yes, that's right. It was always about our people, and you can't get jobs and increased incomes without this sort of thing. The world has changed. There's no blue-collared denim-wearing workers proletariat any more. What does that mean for labour parties? Exactly ` what does it mean? The members of the unions are now 10% of the economy. And` (CHUCKLES) And the big unions are PSA and the nurses. In my day, the nurses' union and the PSA couldn't join the FOL. They weren't unions. Told them to get out of here ` they're kids. They've one employer, and that's that. So what does it mean for parties that are based on... Labour in a world where... that... isn't really a driving force of work any more? (SIGHS) The trade union movement has to be part of us. We're part of that. I'm trade unionist. I'm a member of my union. Still? Yes, and, um... Well, I was last year or something, you know. That's quite an incredible, um,... alignment, isn't it, that you've been head of the WTO and you're still a union guy. Yeah. I'm sitting there at the WTO, so yeah. Scared some of the` Scared some of the ambassadors shitless. We're a free trade Labour Party ` social democratic parties are normally free trade. What was... wrong about the party was the... detour we made to Marxist economics, and that was bullshit. We're here for the Marxist, we're here. When was this Marxist detour? Well, the Marxist detour of state ownership, of control and all that ` it didn't work. Mind you, nice thought. Isn't it interesting, though, because you're a person who strove to be prime minister, yet you don't like telling people what to do. Occasionally I do. Yeah, occasionally I do. In the main, people have got to be free to make their own mistakes. And you got to put your hand out and help up those who stumble and those who hurt. But in the main, you got to let people do what they want to do. Don't you? Why should we tell people every day what to do? God Almighty. Mike Moore has spent most of his life in leadership roles. He's seized power, had power ripped off him and held the ultimate power of prime minister for just 59 days ` the fourth shortest stint in New Zealand history. Let's talk about leadership. And there's that great quote that you'll know well, and I think you've written it` about it ` Norman Kirk. 'What people want is a job, someone to love, somewhere to live and something to hope for.' It's beautiful English, and I've used that. But I say, 'And something to lose.' And that means that they have to own a property, they have to have` And if you're talking about development in Africa and places like that, they need something to own and something to lose. And when they've got nothing to lose, you know, there's the violence and everything else. But it's a very great line of Norman Kirk's. And do you believe that the path that you've pursued in politics has given them choices? Yes. Yep. More than ever. Abraham Lincoln said, 'You only help the poor by taxing the rich to death.' You help the poor by raising living standards, and the rich have to take their share, otherwise they'll screw ya, and then there'll be real trouble. So, um, yeah, I think so. We haven't been able to put it all together, though. We're missing parts of the jigsaw. But overall, this country's far better off. Are you hopeful about the future of New Zealand? Yes, of course. Come on. This country's going great guns. The question is, as always in politics, is what happens to people at the bottom ` how do you make them catch up? How do you make sure these kids brought up in terrible homes get a fair break? But as we go on, the break` those who need the help is going down, actually. What's the greatest challenge facing New Zealand? Um... Getting race relations into a positive frame. So you have your settlements, you have your other schemes, and you keep going at it. That's very important. Because a lot of anguish and anger about Maoris who've seen settlements in their area and not getting any money. And we can't allow Maori to end up fighting itself. You have to give it a place to go, and it comes home, and we do this as well, otherwise we'll be in deep shit. The Treaty settlements ` National's doing well on these settlements, but it's not gonna work. What do you mean it's not going to work? Well, in a couple of years' time, when we have all the Treaty settlements done, and the numbers unemployed, etc, will still be there. The poverty will still be there. It'll be good ` there'll be groups of Maori doing that, but this will not solve the problem alone, and we'll have to find, again, new meaning of the word 'socialism' and helping people out again. And that's OK. That's all right. So we go back to class division rather than...? We don't go back to it; we're in the middle of it. So you probably don't believe in class ` I do. It's really deeply rooted in you, then, isn't it? Because you were thinking about starting another party, perhaps. I was. Yeah. And you didn't do that. You may well have done it. You could have got your 5%, presumably. I mean... Probably. Yeah. Quite a few people came to me after that. I mean, the... the boxes of letters ` just overwhelming. So on one hand, I had the public writing me these letters and blah blah blah, and the caucus not even bothering to speak to me, even those who voted for me, cos they were terrified of what would happen to them. So what stopped you? I'm Labour. I couldn't do it. Well, actually, I think I enjoyed a conversation about it, really. I think of how many we had ` couple from both sides coming in across. But I couldn't do it. How much power does the prime minister actually have? I mean, do you` When you were acting prime minister, and then you were prime minister, do you feel like you're running the country? No, not at all` Oh, well, I didn't. I always felt like I was a bit of a fraud, really. I was there to fight an election campaign. But on studying prime ministers, it is who the prime minister is. It's the power they have emotionally, like the power Muldoon had. He took the power, grabbed it, ran with it. The power of Kirk. We're all different. And you said there has to be an element of fear as a leader. Oh, I had an element of fear there. Yeah. How do you frighten someone? Oh yeah. Um, in opposition, you have no power. It's all bluff. All power is bluff. And you can't expel anyone. All you can do is give them less work to do. Just put them back a row, which gives them more time to plot against you. So, um, the way to get ahead was to be a nuisance, and I'd give you a tough job. Different when you're prime minister. Prime minister's got all the levers. How does political leadership change you? Perhaps you go into yourself a lot more. And privately, you're thinking about things and not sharing them. Nah, that's not a burden. It's a joy. You have three or four alternatives; you make the decision, and the question is, how do you sell it, market it? And that's when opinion polls come in it. And at the moment, the cabinet and the caucus starts with an opinion poll. Under Clark, under this prime minister, they have polls all the time. We didn't do that. And one thing about that Labour government ` we were bloody mad, and we were going to do these things, and then we'd do what people say, and, oh, God. So you make the decision, then you work with the polls. Not the other way around. Not the other way around. How much has the office changed from when you were there to what it is now, do you think? See, I don't believe I was in the prime minister's office long enough. I was only there for a few weeks. I didn't come to Wellington ` I hit the road, and my office was in the car and the phone, and we're working all the time till we dropped, till we dropped to get the vote up. So you were a campaigning prime minister, really, weren't you? Yes. Yeah. Till we dropped. What's your enduring memory of that time? Mm. I think the helicopter ride across the Rimutakas, where we could have gone down. The wind was driving us on to the mountain, and it was like a... lawn-mowing the karaka, and the bloody thing's (IMITATES ENGINE), and she was going backwards into the hill. I thought, 'Hello, we're in trouble here,' and... started to read the alphabet and sing hymns to ourselves. (LAUGHS) I started singing hymns to everyone. Was this some mad dash into a marginal seat or something or...? Yes, into Masterton or some bloody where, and, um,... yeah. (CHUCKLES QUIETLY) What drives you so hard to literally take your life in your hands to hold on to that job? Well, it's your duty, and our people needed us to do the job for them, and the greatest betrayal we can make of our people is not to care. Was the view of politicians... as cynical as it is now? Do you think that's changed? You've got MMP, which makes it worse, because you can't get at these people cos they're on the list. And you put them high enough on the list, they're there forever. And to stay on the list, they gratify a few people in head office. So they don't speak to the people. They don't listen to the people. They speak to the pressure groups, and that's how they stay in. Well, let's talk about MMP. You were always opposed to proportional representation. And so was Anderton, so was Clark, and so we all were. And now? I think it gives us a more representative Parliament, but I don't think it provides diversity of ideas or views. The ideas are so boringly similar. And governments will not` It's an ideal situation for governments not to make hard decisions too. And when I talk about hard decisions, I mean, you tell people, 'It's really tough. 'Don't kick me out. Kick me out in 18 months ` there's an election. But don't kick me to death. 'In the meantime, let me at it. I'm gonna tear this bloody show apart.' Bang! And people will respect you and back you. So, you don't believe MMP has been good for New Zealand on the balance? On balance, no. But people like it. They want a degree of proportionality cos it provides a mixture of supporters. So I think it should stay, but I tend to like electorates. I like person have to stand up and fight in the football club for your supporters. We used to have to win seats. I won two seats from the National Party. I never got a safe seat. And, um, it was understood what would happen. If you went to Papanui or you went to Gisborne, you gotta spend a year without pay. Or stay in Eden a year without pay. So Yvonne and I would raise money ` housies, flea markets. We imported kumaras from the North Island, packaged them at a friends' place and sold them outside freezing works on pay day. We had to do it that way. Some people argue that the actions of the fourth Labour government were partly responsible for MMP. Yes, exactly. It was our fault. They had, um... They'd got us. We were rough on them, and they voted in National, and Bolger was going to unwind all this, but he didn't. And then they thought, 'Well, can't you get rid of the politicians or find another way of doing it?' Constitutionally, do you believe that New Zealand should become a republic one day? Probably, but I'm under no immediate pressure. No one's ever asked me that at a street corner. No one at a factory's ever said 'a republic, republic'. Mike Moore now lives the quiet life in a beachside suburb in Auckland. Even today, the fourth Labour government is something of an embarrassment to many Labour supporters and members. Roger Douglas, Michael Bassett, Mike Moore himself are known as the 'Rogernomes'. But Mike Moore believes they are still part of the proud tradition of the party. I don't want to be misunderstood, but I got closer to Douglas and Prebble and Bassett since I've come back from overseas, and we have an annual Christmas party ` a silly old bugger's club ` and we have a meeting. And it's funny as hell. I mean, Roger Douglas ` his father was a Labour MP; his grandfather was a Labour MP; his brother was a Labour MP. I mean... And when they get a few aboard, they say, 'Oh, I'm worried about our party.' Has he changed his views at all? Not at all. No, no. He's got more` They're firmer. Although, he does want us to win. He says, 'Oh, wish Labour would win. 'I wish they'd do this and this and that.' And he quite likes that guy Parker, and he thought he did well in the campaign. But when you get together, you still feel like Labour people? Uh, yeah. I feel I'm more Labour than they are. Yeah. Starting to watch TV again, and watching Country Calendar ` that's a fabulous show. All of the entrepreneurs, people doing their thing ` they're great. But ask one question ` how many of those people on Country Calendar vote Labour now? What do you think the answer is? None. Why is that? Because we're not seen to be on the side of those who are strivers and want to do things, and, um, we're seen too much on the side of those who want to stop things. Or put more tax on the guy who's making money, and, uh, that's not the way it goes. But I do think we've got trouble. What is that based on? I think its basis is how you elect your leader. You take the leadership election away from the caucus. The caucuses are a primary, and sitting in that caucus, you know what's going on. And the idea that someone can not have support in the caucus, and the leader has to... has to speak for that ` it's a terrible idea. Are you still a member of the Labour Party? Yeah, I am. I don't have to join now. I'm a life member. And you're a proud member of the Labour Party. Yes, I'm proud of what the Labour Party's done for people, and we can do it again. So you've still got hope for the Labour Party? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Hope I live long enough to see another Labour government. (CHUCKLES) Captions by Jean Teng. Edited by Alex Walker. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2017