Today on Newshub Nation ` Labour says it wants 1800 extra cops. But can it afford them? We ask Police Minister Stuart Nash. We put the two main Northcote by-election candidates through their paces and find out why they think they're the best person to replace Jonathan Coleman. Plus, we look at the shocking statistics around traumatic brain injuries in our prisons and the impact on criminal behaviour. Copyright Able 2018 Kia ora. Good morning. I'm Lisa Owen. Welcome to Newshub Nation. Labour's coalition deal with New Zealand First says it will strive towards adding 1800 new cops over the next three years. So how will it attract enough recruits and how can it afford to train and pay them? I'm joined now by Police Minister Stuart Nash. Good morning, Minister. Good morning, Lisa. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. 1800 officers. So they're all going to be sworn front line staff, are they? No. So, what we're looking at at the moment is about 1100` The mix hasn't been completely decided, but about 1100 front line community officers and about 700 organised crime squads, and of those, about 250 will be what we call authorised officers. So these are the men and women with very specific competencies around cybercrime, forensic accounting, front line policing, but not as we know it ` the 21st century. So those are of the organised crime pool? Very much so, yes. Okay. So how many new cops have you put on the beat so far? Since we got into government, there's been about 400 ` 383, to be honest. Over and above what would normally have graduated? No, these are the ones that have graduated, okay? And there's 600 coming in now. But keeping in mind, to get to 1800, we have to train about 1000 a year. There's about 400 police that leave the service every year, so we've got to train 600 a year obviously to get the 1800 on top of that. So that's a thousand a year. We're on target to do a thousand since we became government in that 12-month period. So we're getting there, but the reason we said 'strive' is that we do recognise the fact that a thousand is a lot, and we are not prepared to drop the quality of recruits into the New Zealand Police Services. Okay, a couple of things there. Where are you getting that capacity from? Because the police say they usually have 320 to 350 graduates a year. So can they all go through the police college down in Wellington or what? Well, they can, but we've actually got a new innovation for the first time in 30 years. There's a group going through Auckland. That happened in the 1970s. It's very small, though, isn't it? Yes, it's small, but it's a little bit of a trial to see if it can work. But what we have found is that there are some fantastic men and women that want to make a career out of the New Zealand Police Service. I have been to every graduation except one since I became the Minister of Police, and I can tell you the quality of recruits coming through is fantastic. So are you going to expand the offsite training in order to meet those targets? No, we believe we can do it all through the Royal New Zealand Police College. You mention quality of recruits there. Given that you are now needing so many people coming through, are you sure you've got the mix between quality and quantity right? Because I'm sure you would have seen an article in one of the recent Police Association magazines where some senior officers were complaining about the quality of new recruits. And what I can tell you is the Commissioner of Police and myself have done a tour of all the districts. We've been to 11 of the 12, and we had some senior officers actually stand up and say to us, 'We read this article; we refute it. 'The recruits that we're getting are fantastic.' So I refute that. So you're not going to lower or change any more of the recruitment requirements in order to keep your numbers up? No, we want the numbers. And we recognise that it wouldn't be good for the men and women who are applying for the service. It wouldn't be good for our communities, nor the police itself. So we need to maintain that really high quality of men and women going into the service. That's why we've said we'll strive to do it. I believe, and the commissioner believes, we can do it in three years, but we are determined not to drop the quality of recruits. How much is it going to cost you? You know what? The budget comes out in about two weeks, and you'll know about it then. No, how much is it going to cost you? Because this is a commitment you made, and in your budget, as far as I can see, your obviously pre-election budget, you'd budgeted for a thousand cops. So ball park, what does 1800 new police officers cost you? Look, I'm not going to tell you. But I will tell you one thing ` the only time that Treasury has tried to quantify the cost of crime was in 2006. They wrote a report and said the cost of the community or the country is around about $9.1 billion, or 6.5% of GDP. And the reason why Labour and NZ First came up with this 1800 police is because we've been around our communities, and we'd heard everyone say that policing is not of the quality it needs to be. And I get that, but my question is about how much it's going to cost you. We're told it's 140 grand, basically, to get a new officer on the beat with all the gear that they need. So 140,000 times 1800 cops is 252 million. I'm not going to tell you. Are we close? It is going to be in the budget in two weeks' time. How much? And if you really want, I'm happy to appear in two and a half, three weeks' time and talk about it. So the full whack is going to be in this budget this time around? Wait until the budget comes out. But I can` That's not a number. I'm asking for an indication if you're going to include the cost of all the police in this budget, all of those new police in this budget. What I can tell you is that it was a major coalition promise that we would strive to put 1800 new police and support staff into our communities over three years. Okay. Well, given that you're going to have all these new police officers and you've said one of your emphasises is on community policing, are you going to reopen all of those stations that you campaigned on and said that you would? Are you going to reopen those? Yes, we wanted to do that and more. So how many have you reopened since you came in? None yet, because this is six months out, and, you know, if I could conjure up 1800 new cops in six months, I would. But we've got to train them; we've got to get the money across the line. Keeping in mind that we haven't had a Labour-NZ First budget yet ` we're about to have one. And in that budget, there'll be a whole lot of information around how we're going to deliver. So where will the priority areas be? So which stations will be reopened first? What areas? Just give me geographic areas. We have said that Northland is a priority area; obviously Auckland is a priority area because the population has grown and the police numbers haven't; but really the whole of New Zealand. Now, let me give you an example. I do street corner meetings every Sunday I'm in the electorate, and issues come and go. But one constant is actually policing. People are concerned about police in their community. And they have a perception, real or not, that when they were growing up a generation ago, there were a whole lot of community cops everywhere. Now, we want to get back to that. Okay, so give me a timeline. When will you reopen one of those stations? The first one? When we begin to roll out these 1800` Six months? A year? I mean, the thing is, and I'm not being` Just ball park. Well, I'd like to say six months. But I'm not being glib when I say this. Actually, I have no power to direct the commissioner to do anything operationally. So, we obviously talk and we have conversations about where we'd like it to be` So you made promises that you don't have the power to keep? No. What we've done is we've said we're going to put 1100 more police into our community. We're going to have 700 more police in organised crime squads. We've made it very clear that we want these police to go into our communities in a way that makes our communities feel safe. And the commissioner himself wants to move the trust and confidence of police up to 90%. It's one of his` Okay. So the thing is that a new police officer ` you've talked about the need in Auckland. A new police officer makes, what, about $62,000 a year? You need 50% of your new recruits going to Auckland. It's a very expensive city, so do they need to have a financial incentive to move to this part of the country? Well, as you know, police are in negotiation with management at the moment. The unions, that's their job, and they will determine that. It's not my job to determine what the salary of police officers is. It's my job to ensure that they have the resources to meet the promises they make to the community. And let me give you one stat that you may be interested in. In the last workplace survey, only 40% of officers said they were meeting the promises they were making to our communities. So they know what needs to be done. Over 80% said they were committed to the New Zealand Police Service and to the communities they serve. So what we have is a group of fantastic men and women who know what needs to be done to keep our communities safe but just don't have the resources to do it. So we're going to give them the resources to keep our communities safe and meet the promises that they know need to be made to our communities. Okay. The Ministry of Justice says that for a thousand extra cops that you will get an extra 400 people behind bars. That seems to fly in the face of your government's commitment to reducing the prison population, doesn't it? And I refute those figures. Okay. Well, they're ministry figures. So have you given the police any kind of directive around the use of these new police officers? Don't look for a nail to hammer. Not in any way, shape or form. But what we are doing ` the police's operational model is prevention first. And everyone, from the prime minister down, completely buys into this. So, you know, it may sound a little bit counterintuitive, but more police out there actually means less people in prison, because if you're preventing crime` if you're in your community, you know who's mad, who's bad, who needs to be dragged in front of a judge, but also who needs to be given some sort of alternative or dispute resolution process, then you can do that. When police are under resourced, then they're fighting fires. This is when crime rages in our communities. And one of the things we're going to go really hard on is gangs. We haven't the resources to do that at the moment. With 700 extra men and women in these organised crime squads, we're going to have the ability to go really hard against these guys. Okay, well, so what does that mean? Because you have talked a big game about this. You've talked about ` and these are your words ` 'smashing' the gangs. So what exactly`? What's your one new idea for 'smashing' the gangs? You know, the thing is, this is not one new` there's not a silver bullet when it comes to hunting gangs` No, I didn't ask for your silver bullet; just your new idea. No, I'm going to give you a whole suite of ideas, if I may. Okay, tell me some of them. So, first of all, under the Crimes Act, Section 98a` to colloquially put it, that's sort of a puppet master clause in the Crimes Act which allows us to go after gang leaders who are sort of arm's length away from the minnows on the ground doing the bad things. The judges are a little bit strict in this interpretation, so we want to strengthen that so it allows us to go after the gang leaders. We've got the Proceeds of Crime ` we've so far confiscated over $550 million. So, you can deprive someone of their freedom, but we're also taking their assets, and we're also taking their cash` That's not new, though. The National government took assets from gangs as well. So, what have you got that's new? But the thing is, there aren't the resources currently to do it. Right. Let me give you an example. In the Eastern District, which is my district, there were four officers full-time in the organised crime squad. Now, you can't go after gangs in Gisborne, Hastings, Napier and south if you've only got four dedicated officers for organised crime. If you increase that to 40, then that completely changes the game. So you're committed to putting the extra officers who are working in organised crime into those specific areas that gangs are dominating? Absolutely. This is about going` So, Gisborne` Gisborne, Warkworth, Invercargill. Bay of Plenty. Bay of Plenty, Tauranga. In fact, we've just` there's a new organised crime squad that's just started in Tauranga recently, and they had their first big win. They smashed a gang that was dealing in synthetics. And that has disrupted the synthetic movement into Auckland and the lower North Island. All right, so, another thing you could do is that National's bill was pulled from the ballot this week, which would allow police to issue firearms prohibition orders against gang members, which means they could search their cars and their houses without warrants. Are you going to support that? Look, I need to have a look at the legislation. I am all for firearms prohibition orders. There's no doubt about that. And, to be honest, I'm a little bit cynical about Paula Bennett's bill. The reason I say that is because she was Police Minister for 11 months. They had nine years. Gangs have been a problem for nine years. We're going to do something about this. So you might write your own prohibition bill` firearms prohibition bill? I'm all for firearms prohibition. And, also, keep in mind` So are you going`? If you're all for it, then, are you going to push forward with a law change that allows you to` allows the police to issue those in relation to gangs? Yes, we are. But we're doing a whole suite of stuff. But this isn't necessarily what Paula Bennett wants to do. I mean, when she mooted this in government, it was not the sort of bill that we found favourable. Okay, so you're going to do your own, but` We're doing that. I mean, this isn't something that we pulled out of the hat and we said, 'Oh, shivers, that's a good idea. We haven't thought of this.' This is on the radar. We're doing a whole lot of work around gangs and firearms. All right. There is an Australian gang that's getting a bit of a foothold here ` the Comancheros. Now, these are Kiwis, actually, who have been deported back from Australia. How are you going to curb their influence? Okay, see, these are bad men doing bad things. First and foremost, they're now on the` well, as of the 1st of June, they're now on the national gang register, which means they are not allowed to wear their patches in any government department. That's a first step. The second step is we've got to go after their assets and their money, which is, again, Proceeds of Crime. Third step is we've got to have our men and women in our organised crime squads just going really hard against these guys. They are setting up here. They are liaising with other gangs. And the last thing we want is a gang like the Comancheros ` and these are a transnational gang who've a history of violence and drug dealing ` we don't want them here` So, you're basically telling them you're watching them, and you're coming after their ill-gotten gains? Absolutely. And none of your patches. So, from the 1st of June, they can't wear their patch. They can't wear their patch in any government department. OK. So, last year, meth, which is also associated with the gangs, made half of all drugs charges. And since 2008, convictions have gone up 170% for meth. The war on drugs, the war on meth, is not working. So why don't you decriminalise meth for personal use and treat it as a health issue? We're not going to decriminalise it, I'll tell you that much. But what we are doing` And this is the police culture and philosophy has changed. So there was an operation called Operation Daydream in the lower Waikato, and it was an anti-meth operation. After they'd rounded up the dealers and the suppliers, they then went back to all the addicts they'd come into contact with, and instead of rounding them up, putting in a judge, throwing them in jail and then asking questions, they actually put them in touch with social services. Because, let's face facts, if you're a meth addict` So not charging them and then diverting them to addiction programmes? So, what you find with a lot of meth addicts, they're actually good people who've found themselves in a really bad situation. So, you know, the vast majority, I don't think should be criminalised. We don't need to treat meth addicts as criminals. We should be treating this as a health issue, hence` So are police following that model across the board, then? More and more. More and more. Do they need to do that more? They do. And we're encouraging this. The commissioner is encouraging this` So you've made your thoughts clear to the commissioner? I've made my thoughts very clear, but, to be honest, I didn't need to make my thoughts clear, because the commissioner is right on board with this. It's not being soft on crime; it's dealing with the issues we find in front of ourselves. And the sort of interventions I'm talking about ` I'll be honest with you, Lisa, they're expensive, okay? Because it's got to be an all-government approach` Well, do you have the money, then? But it's not as expensive as $100,000 a year to keep someone in jail. Okay, so, 2016, MSD did some research on gangs. You're aware of this. It showed 90% of gang members in New Zealand have been collecting a benefit for an average of nine years. Now, you said last year in a press statement, 'That has to stop.' So how are you going to stop that? So, you know, this is Al Capone and getting him for tax evasion. We need to look at ways that we can go after these gangs. And we will use whatever we can` So you're saying you're going to investigate them for benefit fraud? Why not? You know, if we can't get them for the crimes we know they're committing, let's investigate them for benefit fraud. Let's find a way to get these gangs. You know` What specifically? Are you going to see if they're getting income from somewhere else? I mean, specifics ` what are you going to do around that? Well, again, this comes to the Proceeds of Crime. And I'm not going to mention a name, but let me give you one example. There's a Head Hunter, a leader of the Head Hunters. We've taken six houses off him; we've taken his Harley-Davidsons, his fast cars and a whole lot of cash. Now, he hasn't been convicted of anything to do with his gang affiliations, but he is being investigated for benefit fraud. So he may well go down for benefit fraud, so` So is that a priority for you, then? My priority is to go after these gangs and do whatever we can, use whatever laws we can, to go after them. But one other` They have 7000 kids, these gang members. That's the other thing this piece of research told us. So if you are taking benefits off them, what about their kids? And what we also find is kids in a gang household are 37 times more likely to be abused or neglected. So, one thing I do want to do is be clear on this, if someone wants to leave a gang` But poverty is still a big driver of crime. Of course it is, but if someone wants to leave a gang, and, in particular, a woman with children, we want to make it easy for her to do that. Because we do know that women can be trapped in these cycles of violence, and we need to get these women and children out of that. So is taking their money away, their benefit away, going to make it easier for them? No. But what we are going to do is take away the sexiness of being in a gang ` taking away their assets, you know, and their bling and this sort of stuff. But what we want to do is send a message to gang women and their children ` there is another way. We want to help them out of this. And at the moment, what we're seeing is just lock them up or send them to Women's Refuge. We've got to have an all-government approach in how we deal with this issue. All right, it's nice to talk to you. Hopefully, we'll get to have you come back and discuss some figures. If you have got something to say about what you see on our show, do let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram ` Or you can email us at... The address is on your screen now. Coming up ` what do you know about Dan Bidois and Shanan Halbert? Well, they both wanna be Northcote's next MP, and they join us after the break. Plus, how large numbers of prison inmates are being affected by injuries that they don't even know they have. Jonathan Coleman's resignation from politics has left a vacancy in Northcote, and my next two guests are vying to fill it. Shanan Halbert and Dan Bidois both want to be the electorate's new MP, and they've just started campaigning in earnest ahead of the June 9th vote, and they both join me now. Good morning. Morena. Morena, Lisa. Good morning, Lisa. Shanan. Dan, can I start with you? You have identified transport and congestion as a big local issue for your electorate, specifically congestion on Onewa Road. So, what's your plan to fix it? Sure. Well, Lisa, the people of Northcote have told me very clear that they're unhappy with the congestion on Onewa Road. And I actually live on Onewa Road at the moment and I see it right backed up. It takes you 30 minutes at 6.30 in the morning to get from one end of Onewa to the bottom. So, what I'm proposing is a comprehensive plan for transport in the Northcote electorate; we don't really have one right now. So that is all to do with ferry services; it's to do with more regular bus services. But it's all to do with, also, looking at congestion right around the electorate, not just Onewa Road, but also Northcote Road. The whole electorate is backed up, Lisa, so that's what I'm going to be focussed on if elected as their local MP. Shanan? Yeah, I've lived in the electorate for a number of years, and I've experienced first-hand what it's like to sit in Onewa Road. The vision for us needs to be greater, and that's what Northcote is looking for. And our $28 million plan alongside Auckland Council is a package, and it's the biggest package in history that Auckland's seen to address congestion in Auckland. Can I interrupt, Lisa? There is nothing in that package for the people of Northcote. There's a SkyPath ` which, great, I support ` but SkyPath alone is not going to solve our transport issue. Well, SkyPath and SeaPath are there, and what it enables is a safe cycling and walking route across the harbour bridge. People have been asking for that for a long time, for nine years. And for 12 years, National have held the seat of Northcote and there has been no action on transport. The last transport project was the Northern Expressway, which was under the Clark Government. Dan? So, look` What was the big project which helped Northcote under the National government? I'm not here to talk about the National government; I'm here to talk about who's best placed to be the local MP for Northcote. And what I'm saying is that the ATAP plan that's just come out leaves Northcote out of the loop, apart from a SkyPath, which is not going to solve our transport issues. But what`? But, Lisa, I want to be the local advocate of a strong local voice for Northcote in Jacinda Ardern's government. That's what I'm offering. OK. I just want to clarify what Dan is saying about nothing in that package. Northern Busway extension; the Penlink Road; ferry service upgrade; and, long-term, a second harbour crossing and light rail to the Shore. Is that nothing? Oh, that's something. Ferry's great. That's a vision. Well, no. That's a vision bigger than Onewa Road. At the moment,... We can't throw stones from inside. it takes thirty minutes to get down Onewa Road. One at a time. Let's hear Dan. At the end of the day, the people of Northcote have told me loud and clear they're unhappy with being stuck in traffic for 30` an hour extra per day. That's an hour extra that they're not spending with their family, with their loved ones or on their business. The reality is this, then` At the end of the day, that's not going to come quick enough for the people of Northcote. And that's why I'm going to be fighting hard for a comprehensive transport plan for the people of Northcote. The reality is that 80% of Northcote commuters now are travelling down the T3 lane. That's far better than what we were doing three years ago. Now we need more solutions for them. That includes our local ferries; it includes SkyPath. And one of the biggest things for me in Northcote is about ensuring that our ferries are subsidized, that they are frequent, and that there are options for Northcote commuters. I'm really happy that Shanan's mentioned the T3 lane, because that figure, 80%, includes the cars that go down. That's right. So, if you exclude those cars, it's actually more about 40% using public transport. Carpooling's a great thing. It's also eight years old. 80%. But more importantly, we want to look at how we're using Onewa Road. Why would you exclude the cars? Because there are three people in those cars in order to go in the lane, so it's` No, absolutely. Why not trial a T2 lane and have more cars go down there? Because that'll slow down the 80%. OK. Well, I actually asked` Which includes cars. And right now, people are backed up, and I've been backed up on Friday morning at 6.30. It took me half an hour to get down Onewa Road. (LAUGHS) You've only just moved in. That's my daily life. Good point. Good point, Dan, regarding the T2 lane. I'll tell you why they don't do that. Auckland Transport has told me that lowering to a T2 lane will mean that there is more traffic in that lane than there is in the general lane. How do they know that? Because the rest of Auckland is on a T2 lane, and only the people of Northcote are on the T3 lane. So why don't we trial it? OK. So, traffic is clearly a priority for both of you. You've both mentioned SkyPath, so let's go there. SkyPath ` Labour has pledged $30 million to this project. That's right. The final price tag is going to be way more than that. How prepared is labour to stump up the money that's needed to get it done? Well, $67 million. And Labour's put up $30 million to kick-start that off. People want to walk over the bridge, and that's our commitment. I'm standing for action for Northcote. 30 million's not going to get you a SkyPath, though. $67 million is the total price tag. We've worked with Auckland Council; we're in partnership with them. And that's the great thing about this government. So are you able to indicate for your government, if you are the MP for Northcote, are you gonna make a commitment now to try to get them to put more money into the pot to get it done? Because people, when we said we were gonna be talking to you both, people said, 'This thing is taking too long. 'Where is the rest of the money?' Yeah. Absolutely I'll make a commitment to advocating for Northcote on the SkyPath to Minister Twyford. And that's the great thing about being in government ` is I can work with my Minister Twyford. We have a partnership with Auckland Council and Auckland Transport. And that's the leadership that Jacinda Ardern has shown. So you're going to get some extra money for the project as the Northcote MP? I will absolutely advocate for Northcote, because we've had 12 years of inaction. OK. Dan. Because the cycleway that was going to link the SeaPath was supposed to cost $4 million, and now it's on budget for 18 million. So you should double whatever the central government's going to spend on SkyPath. Double that times four, and that's what it's really going to cost. Dan, just for the record, are you for it or against it ` SkyPath? Oh, I'm all for SkyPath, as long as it links in with SeaPath and it doesn't infringe on private property rights and the private rights of those in Northcote Point. So, Jonathan Coleman was wrong when he said it might detract from the`? Yes, he was wrong. Johnathan was him; I'm me. And all I can say` Okay, so you support it? Absolutely, as long as it doesn't infringe on the privacy rights of and the rights of parking for those at Northcote Point. So, how would it infringe on the privacy rights? Because, right now, parking's an issue in Northcote Point, which is why it needs to link with SeaPath so that people can park away from Northcote Point and use access to SkyPath. The reality for Northcote is it's only a Labour MP that has a proven track record on transport on the Shore. All right, I want to move on to` If I can interrupt, this is not actually about Labour or National; it's about who the people in Northcote want` A Labour MP. ...as their local MP. And I'm saying here that I'm a fighter, and I'm prepared and want to be a fighter for the people of Northcote. And it's about what you can get for them, isn't it? So, you, Shanan, have had a focus on education and helping Maori achieve, so how can you be okay with Labour ditching charter schools when data shows that they're making a difference for Maori? I'm backing a strong public education system, and that means that our schools need to be resourced adequately. We don't have charter schools in Northcote. What we do have is some very good schools. There's 21 in total. And they aren't receiving the resource that they need for good facilities to learn in. Can't you back a good public school system and also back charter schools which seem to be achieving for Maori? Yeah, we need to address Maori achievement, absolutely, and the same for our Pacific community in Northcote. But the reality is it's` But you're fine with ditching charter schools? Yes, I am. Even though they're doing well for Maori? Well, what we need to ensure is that our public school system is doing well for Maori, Pacific, our ethnic groups, so on and so forth. Look, Lisa, I'm a classic example of someone who's succeeded while dropping out of high school at age 15. I'm a high school dropout. The best thing this education system did for me is pair me with a butcher's apprenticeship, and I got to Harvard University. I studied for a Master of Public Policy. I've seen charter schools in the U.S., and I'm amazed at the success that they've had for African Americans and Hispanics, and I'm fully supportive of the charter school model in New Zealand. At Glenfield College, we have a great Services Academy there that enables Maori and Pacific to learn within a military environment. That's the same experience that our charter schools are offering. But it teaches the New Zealand curriculum. We have good teachers in place` And so do charter schools teach the curriculum. Dan, I want to move on. I see that you visited a local school on the campaign trail; it was on your Twitter account. Teachers are in pay talks. So what does a first year primary teacher make, and what do you reckon they're worth? I think they're worth a lot more than they are today, and I believe that we should value our teachers. They are the most important people in terms of the difference that they can make in a child's wellbeing. And so I would` So what do you think they should be paid, then? Well, I can't tell you a figure, but I think it's around valuing teachers and making sure that the best teachers are rewarded for making` Are they worth an 8% pay rise a year over two years? I can't tell you that. I haven't looked at what they're earning at the moment. But all I can say is that I'm a strong advocate for seeing teachers valued in society. So they make 48 to 50 grand. Okay. Pay parity is important for our teachers, but the reality is the living costs in Auckland are their biggest challenges, and that's where their salary packages aren't matching up on the Shore. We are losing teachers, and that's why we need to ensure that we address their salary package but also ensure that we have more affordable housing. So you would support them getting 8% a year for two years? I definitely think they need an increase, and we'll go through that process. I suspect that we'll see some of those outcomes presented in the budget. Lisa, what the schools have been telling me is that teacher quality and the number of teachers coming through, it's an issue that needs to be addressed. So that will be my focus as a local MP. And there's 23 schools in this electorate, and I want to make sure that we've got a good number of teachers coming out of our schools and that they're all good quality and they're ready to take on the challenges that they face and the reality` The reality is they haven't been able to stay. We've got a good teacher shortage on the North Shore, and that's because the cost of housing is too expensive. What we're going to do now is some quick-fire questions. We're going to see how well you know your electorate and also get to know you on some issues. So if I can get some quick answers, please. Shanan, Northcote, you say, is a great place for first-home buyers. Best place. Young, professional first-home buyers. So what is the average house price in your electorate? Average house price is 850,000. No. It is over $1 million, according to QV. What is the median family income in your electorate? About $32,000. Family income in your electorate. Family income? 75. That would be about 65,000. No. 82,900. So, what percentage of people living in Northcote were born overseas, Shanan? 30%. Dan? I'll go 45. 38. Where would you go in your electorate to spot glow-worms? Down to the Kaipatiki. I'll say Kaipatiki as well. Le Roys Bush. Who is the principal of Northcote College? Vicki Barrie. Vicki Barrie. Did you know that? Yes, I did. I'm meeting her in a couple of days. Are you for decriminalisation of cannabis or against it? At this stage, no, but I'll be reading the bill as` Certainly, if there's something put on the table, I'll read it as it comes across. I certainly think we need to address medicinal cannabis, yes. Personal use ` decriminalisation, yes or no? No. No. Okay. So, how many houses are going into the new Northcote development? 1200. 2000. 1200. How many of those are state houses? About 800. 350. 350. Are you for or against euthanasia, please, both of you? For. In principle, for, but I'll be reading the submissions very carefully. Decriminalisation of abortion? I'm happy with the law. I think the law is working well as it is. I support it. All right. Hey, thank you both for joining us this morning. It was good to get to know you a little bit better. Still to come ` we dissect the week's politics with our panel. But first, traumatic brain injuries are shockingly common among prison inmates. So how does it affect their offending and their rehabilitation? Almost 36,000 New Zealanders suffer a traumatic brain injury every year according to ACC. And there are now calls for improved screening in prisons following a 2017 study that found almost two thirds of inmates have sustained at least one brain injury. Brain injuries are linked to an increased risk of criminal offending, posing a serious challenge for our justice system. A warning ` this report from Mike Wesley Smith contains some graphic footage of a violent attack that some viewers may find distressing. Benjamin Lightbody's had five operations on his skull after a massive brain injury five years ago. But he's still feeling the effects I'm still missing 31% of my brain's capacity. The other 69% is trying to run everything. It's the cranio-plasticity implant that I have in now. So that's your actual skull? Yep. He was viciously assaulted in Mount Eden Prison in 2013 by another inmate who was armed with a pool ball. He crept up behind me low, and he came up, and he just smashed me in the back of the head. And I just dropped. His attacker was convicted and sentenced to extra jail time, but the circumstances surrounding the incident are still being reviewed. A former inmate has released CCTV footage of his brutal assault while in the then Serco-run Mt Eden Jail. An investigation found major failings in Serco's response to the incident in 2013. The case was highly publicised, and Ben began receiving messages from many other former prisoners with brain injuries, sharing their experiences and their vulnerability to other inmates. Other people that have had brain injuries, or were beaten, or were being intimidated or extorted. So, for a person in prison with a brain injury without the support that they should have, um... It's worse than hell. Since Ben was in prison, more effort has been made to find out how many prisoners are living with a traumatic brain injury. Psychologist Alice Theadom helped run a large study involving more than 1000 prisoners. We found that very high rates of traumatic brain injuries over their lifetime. We found 64% had experienced at least one injury. In the general population, for males of equivalent age, it's around 14%. So it is about, you know, three to four times higher. She says the effect of brain injuries, depending on the severity, can include severe tiredness, headaches, difficulty concentrating, and sensitivity to noise. We found that assaults were the most common cause within the prison population. Right, so` But people did talk about having many different kinds of injuries. So, it may have been that they fell over as a child, that they had a car accident as a teenager, and they had an assault as an adult. The research has found links between brain injuries and offending involving violence and burglaries. But Associate Professor Theadon says more research is needed on the causal relationship. We do know that following a mild or severe injury, people can have personality changes. And they become more impulsive, and they find making decisions and controlling their mood more difficult. Experts also say that brain injuries are usually just one part of a cluster of factors that make a person more likely to commit crime, such as poverty and a history of abuse, neglect and trauma. But some people don't even know they have a traumatic brain injury. I had a client a long time ago ` and he was describing how sometimes he gets headaches. And I asked him, 'Why do you get headaches?' And he had this phenomenal head of hair on him. And he goes, 'Oh, because I was hit in the side of my head with an axe.' And he sort of moved his head` his hair over to one side, and I could see a noticeable depreciation in the side of his head. And at that point, I realised he had obviously had a traumatic brain injury. Lawyer Maria Pecotic says there are court processes and assessments available for brain-injured, but some still fall through the cracks. Particularly if it's pretty minor offending, then they can virtually go through the entire criminal justice system without being treated, or without that even being acknowledged. But if these injuries are found and managed properly, the outcomes can be very different. Meet Steve Wallen ` a bloke who loves his music. Dire Straits, Eagles ` I'm into the lot. Music ` I love music. Steve's history of brain injuries dates back to when he was young. Thick, (stutters) steel axle, or something, knocked me on the head. Just went poof, like that. Didn't go to hospital with the pipe hitting me on the head ` the steel pipe. Steve once came close to trouble with the law, or has he puts it... Just by a whisker, I escaped. He escaped with the help of caring advocates such as Arana Pearson, who's worked with Steve for four years and helped him find a home. I think that any human being deserves a right to a home. And, particularly people with a quiet brain injury, once in that homelessness cycle, the only home they really see is prison, which becomes a relief for them, because there's food, there's a bed to sleep, and there's quite a structure, which works well, whereas life on the outside is pretty unstructured. Arana works for Whakatohea Iwi Social and Health Services, and he's often called on to assist people with brain injuries who are in trouble with the law. I've got a number of people that come through our doors who don't fit what we're funded for. And the major issues has been` there was a bang on the head, and that impacted this person's lives. Arana says while the brain injuries might not be visible, the impact is. Sometimes we get some good wins. And we celebrate those, and then other times, it's a long road. And we need people in the community in addition to the paid workers that will go the long road, cos it's not gonna come right quickly. I tell ya, I'd be struggling, really struggling, if I don't have Whakatohea services. I'll be really struggling, tell you the truth. Yep. Really struggling. And another thing ` I don't wanna see that service ever get shut down. (SNIFFS) It's easy to see what the support means for people like Steve in the community. And researchers like associate professor Theadon now want to improve things for people with brain injuries in jail. It's very difficult to just rely on medical records, for example, because as we found with the prisoners we spoke to, many of them didn't seek medical attention after their injury. So it's important that we do speak to the person themselves. That's why she believes every believes every prisoner should be checked for any history of brain injury. There are screening tools available, that we are able to implement within the current systems. So, it would be great to see those implemented and rolled out. Maria Pecotic agrees. People going into prison ` that's pretty fundamental to know, because that is how they would respond to any programmes that are offered in jail. You want tailor programmes that can cater for their traumatic brain injury. They'll need more time to think things through. They also need rest time and real quiet time for their brain to recover so that then they can function again. Because with the right treatment, people with traumatic brain injuries can live full lives in their communities. I wanna, you know, pursue my jewellery and design. Link on with a fashion label and design a` You know? I've still got dreams. If you got a head injury and just... Just try to live your life best way you can, well without the drugs and the alcohol and the cigarettes. LAUGHING: I'm on top of the world, thanks. And Corrections wouldn't be interviewed for that story, but sent us a statement saying all of it's psychologists have been educated on how to identify and work with prisoners living with a brain injury. And the department said it's working on a proposal for a new study into brain injuries among prisoners. Well, still to come, Labour's Mt Roskill MP Michael Wood answers the big questions in this week's Facebook question session. But first we catch up with our panel ` Sunday Star editor, Johnathan Milne, associate partner from SenateSHJ, Mark Joiner, and political commentator David Slack. Welcome back. I'm joined now by our panel ` Jonathan Milne, Marg Joiner and David Slack. Morning to you all. Talking to the Police Minister this morning, Stuart Nash, this is the first time we've had real detail around these 1800 new cops. What did you make of what he was saying about the split, where the resources are going? Well, clearly, he wouldn't be drawn on whether they've got the dough, but I would figure if he hasn't got the dough, he'd have been trying to hose down the fact that they'd promised that particular number. He seemed to be pretty emphatic that it was going to be there. So I think that you can probably assume that they've figured out what it'll cost, and it's going to be there. I am intrigued by this proposition of whether you can actually get the sheer numbers, you know? What was it? 350 a year who are coming through the` Yeah, and he says 1000 a year to account for attrition. So in order to get your increase, you have to actually pump through 1000 officers a year. So I'm figuring either you push the conditions and pay up or you do a new ad campaign that's 'Get better, better, better life stories'. I don't know. (CHUCKLES) What he didn't do, Lisa, though, was look in the rear-vision mirror, which, I think, we've seen this government do a fair bit at the moment. And that was positive. So, this was his first high-profile outing, and I think he did a very good job. He was quite definitive about what his goals were in terms of the numbers, where they were going. The only thing he wasn't was the money, as David has said. Yeah, and perhaps the budget on 17 May is this government's opportunity to start looking forward and stop looking in that rear-vision mirror. One thing he did say is` I mean, they made pre-election promises that they were going to open up these community stations that have been closed down, Jonathan. And they've not opened a single station. No, and, look, he can't defer to Grant Robertson and the budget on that one, because these are stations that are sitting there` they're perfectly solid buildings sitting there ` 23 of them in shopping malls around the country. I mean, I live in the Mt Roskill electorate, our police space down there has been closed for several years now, temporarily closed. All he needs to do is actually open the doors again and move a community constable into them. And the security, the confidence that it gives people in those communities seeing a shop in the mall with blue-and-white stripes over the door` ...and a community officer. ...and a community officer doing shifts in there. It's not a big call. It's not a budget call. But have they promised something that they cannot deliver? Because he also said that it's an operational thing. He can't direct the commissioner to put police back into those places. Yeah, and he's absolutely right on that. But, in that case, as you rightly pointed out to him, they can't go into the election promising to reopen 23 kiosks, unless they're actually going to find a mechanism to deliver on that. I wonder if they've thought about putting them on bikes, you know? Costs an awful lot less than a Holden, and you are highly visible if you're getting around on a bike. Are we going to have the big, sort of, English-style hats again? Yeah, yeah. Marg, the other thing that he is focusing in on is gangs and methamphetamine. He seemed to be suggesting a shift in approach. And he called it` He actually called it 'the Al Capone approach', which is going for the money and going for the benefits that they may or may not be collecting. Yeah, well, he had some good, snappy lines, and that was one of them. And I think what that revealed, and also as your interview showed ` the law and order portfolio's a complex one. And it's not just about police numbers. And it's going to take a very capable minister to pull that off. It's also one that's full of surprises, so it's good to see the breadth of considerations he's got. Of course, we've also got the annual crime statistics that'll come out ` that'll be on his mind as well ` which fits in with this ` and also on the minds of the public. David, his approach to the gangs ` what did you make of that? Well, Marg's right, it is a complex thing, and he's right to recognise it himself that, you know, you've got to have a whole-of-life approach here that's dealing with other dimensions. I can see that he really sees this Al Capone idea of going for people for the benefit as being some way of trying to get at the head. I'm just not sure` Any time you think you've got a simple solution to a complex problem, you can sometimes deceive yourself. So I'm just not sure about that. Well, yeah, gangs have been around for a long time, haven't they, Jonathan? I mean, did you see anything in his approach that you would have thought new, innovative, it's going to work? Yeah, I mean, his Head Hunters example, the Al Capone example, and we've seen the same when we've been covering the same in the Black Power in Maketu in the Bay of Plenty, where they've been going after the head and seizing his assets on tax grounds. I think a lot of people out there, myself included, would think, 'Great. I love your innovation 'and, you know, going after benefit fraud or tax fraud or whatever, but, actually, isn't that a failure 'in the primary criminal law and policing if we can't actually get them on the crimes 'that we care about, and we're having to rely on tax fraud and benefit fraud?' He did say that 250 of those 1800 are going to be unsworn officers, but they will be working on cybercrime and the like. That was interesting, wasn't it, Marg? A shift from the common` well, when I say, the common crimes, like, burglary, your everyday things that people recognise. Yeah, and it's about getting the New Zealand public thinking beyond that. So, we had a bit in the media this week about artificial intelligence and our policies there, and whether we're equipped to deal with that. So, yeah, it is good. And I think you also asked him what's new, and perhaps that's one of the things that's new. But he is constrained by budget, the self-imposed debt commitments. I mean, the purse strings are not going to be loosened as much as perhaps they could to achieve some of these new things that you prompted him on. Hey, also this morning, we saw the two gentlemen who would like to be the new MP for Northcote ` Shanan Halbert and Dan Bidois. Was there a clear winner this morning? Well, certainly, Shanan was good on your pop quiz. (LAUGHS) Will that get him elected though? And it was interesting to see that Dan was talking about the party he represents as 'the party formerly known as government', but trying to, kind of, get people to think about the fact that` ...I don't want to talk about the National government. No, that's right. (CHUCKLES) Dan kind of took us back to first-past-the-post there in a way. He was very strong on electoral politics, rather than the party line, which was interesting. I can see how you would emphasise ` and they did ` the whole question of transport, and how you would transform it. And I wonder if either of them are going to be confident enough to talk about just how much you can potentially solve these things by really transforming. Now, Shanan got closer by talking about the ATAP thing, and how it is change of a magnitude we haven't seen for generations, but I think there is a` I saw in both of them a little hesitation not to rile the people who love their cars. When, actually, you kind of need to challenge that a bit. Well, David, I mean, you live on the North Shore. Are you going to cycle` Are you going to ride your bike across the Harbour Bridge every day? You bet, I am, because of` as long as you get not just the SkyPath, but the SeaPath, because that actually makes it` ...connects it all up, yeah. ...connects it from Takapuna. I mean, I'm in Devonport, but it then becomes really easy, especially if you've got an e-bike, which I don't yet, but I intend to, because that bridge, I think, will open it to a lot of people if we get a momentum` I think what a lot of people are going to be saying` And I don't live on the North Shore, but what I know is that my wife and I have to get to work in the morning, we've got three kids to drop off at school and at childcare. You try and do that in a bus or a bike. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. And I think that is why if you can take the pressure off those roads by getting people who are able to get on a bike out of the congested roads, it's better for everybody. Marg, it's been seen as a pretty safe National seat. Yeah, it's true blue. And that came through in the pop quiz, I think. You could see Shanan was far more prepped as the underdog. He's put in, obviously, a fair bit more work, but it is a true blue seat, so success for them might be to get the margin down to` the majority, sorry, down to 1000, perhaps. Yeah, to revert back to transport ` close the gap. OK, stay with us, we will be back after the break. Welcome back. You're with Newshub Nation and our panel. Well, in other news this week, Mark, the debate around the so-called waka jumping legislation is ramping up with legal experts coming out saying they think it's un-Democratic. Is this really going to be a thorn in the side of Labour? I'm not sure about a thorn, but certainly the submitters are obviously unhappy with it, with 100% submissions opposing it. Is that unprecedented? I'm not sure. Gotta be rare! (CHUCKLES) Gotta be rare. But in the main, party politics is a team game, and people are elected under that banner, perhaps. So` I see Jonathan shaking his head there. Jonathan? No. We've seen Winston Peters drive this over the years; we saw Jim Anderton in his day drive waka jumping. It's` It's absolute control tactic from the ledgers of small parties who are heavily reliant on list MPs. It's not so much a matter for Labour or National, because most of their MPs are electorate MPs. But those small parties, all those MPs come in on their coattails on the list, and so the leaders think they own them. And, in fact, they don't own them, because they're elected just as much as any other MP. Yeah, but I wonder if, perhaps, voters rely on the party to almost vet the candidates, in a way. We're not under 'first past the post' any more, and we do elect people under the banner and the principles of the party. I do think we as a public, we as the media, we as the voters need to trust ourselves to vet the candidates a little bit. Yeah, I think for a principal point of view, it seems to me if you elect somebody under MMP as a list MP and you voted for the party, then there is a valid argument you can make that says that party vote is what must be preserved, so we'll take steps to ensure that happens. That's the idealistic thing that I'm looking at. But I'm looking at the pragmatism of it that Jeanette Fitzsimons did this week and said, 'Look, since 2000, there have only been three who've disappeared.' This was really a symptom of the evolution of MMP and now getting used to it. This is a problem we don't need to worry about. And I think` Is it a problem the Greens need to worry about, though? Yeah. Cos is it gonna create some issues, some internal issues for them? Cos there's clearly a split over what they should do. Well, look, what would have happened with the Greens just before the last election is James Shaw would have been able to sack the two MPs because he didn't like what they were saying. That's not democracy ` this all powerful leader deciding who's in parliament and who's not. Well, assuming he had two thirds of the caucus backing him. Yeah, two thirds is the number. There's still a consensus. I do feel` No, 'feel' is overstating it. I can understand where Winston's coming from, because if you go back` Nobody can understand him. (LAUGHS) Ever. Yeah, I'm guessing. If you go back to when he lost half of his caucus of '16 and they propped up the government partner that had sacked him, you can see how he might have been a bit` And went on to from their own little micro parties` Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is an insurance policy, some would say. Social housing announcement ` the government has announced 100 million towards solving homelessness and social housing. 37 million of that is re-appropriated funds moved from somewhere else, and 67-odd is new money, about 15 million a year. David, enough? My first take was, 'Surely you're gonna need more than that.' My second was, 'This is interesting that a lot of the agencies are saying 'this will take the immediate pressure off. We're pleased to have it.' I also noticed that Simon O'Connor said that National had actually planned to spend three times as much. I always wanted to hear about something that was 'shoulda, woulda, gonna' happen as opposed to what's actually here in black and white, and it is a good start. But we were talking off-air about how Monte Cecilia were suggesting the 2 billion a year that go into the accommodation supplement. KiwiBuild? Oh yeah. Yeah, I just re-appropriated it from the KiwiBuild to accommodation supplement. If you would have used that as a third, a third, a third, as Monte Cecilia were saying, of new build, change the rental system and proper socialised housing, I think that's a good formula, and I hope that's kind of where we're going, because I think we've demonstrably got a really dysfunctional system, and it's not gonna be easy. If you can build a state house for every Kiwi family coming through, which you seem to be proposing, we'll take a photo of you, we'll frame it, we'll hang it on every mantelpiece in New Zealand. (LAUGHS) Just like last time. We'll call you Mickey Savage. But I think it's gotta be 21st century where you can't actually get a house. It's gonna be now, this time around, apartments. And what you've gotta avoid is` I also think good to see` Sorry. It's good to see a bit more in the pot for housing first for these similar reasons. These people are drowning, and it's about being able to get them out of the water and into a house without having to cut through a whole lot of red tape, and there's charities popping up like Stand Up For Shelter who are backing up the government and being able to do this ` picking someone up who's drowning, getting them into a house so they don't have to cut through all that red tape. And from there, they can start rebuilding their life. Jonathan, paper's got an interesting story about donations. Yeah, we've got the disclosures of donations from all the political parties from last year's elections. What's extraordinary is that the National Party got 4.5 million bucks in donations last year. That's three times what Labour got. I don't know if they're feeling they spent that money very well, given that it still didn't get them into power. But there's also some interesting donors in there, as we reveal in the Star Times today. We've got Donghua Liu ` remember him? Yes, controversial. He was the one who Maurice Williamson lost his job over after taking a donation from him and then being seen to doing favours and were writing to the police on his behalf. It's extraordinary` Who did he give money to? Quickly. We've gotta wrap. The Maori Party, extraordinarily. All right. Good read, then, it sounds like. Um` Duncan Cole's in it too. Thank you to our panel. And our long-time viewers might remember when Labour MP Michael Wood brought a bag of flour on to the show to stand in for a rival MP who refused to front up. Mr Wood joined us on Facebook Live this week to tell us what's happened to that flour and to explain how he came to be in a Twitter feud with it. We're gonna remind people about the dirty deal with this bag of wholemeal flour. And this is going to sit in place of Paul Goldsmith. Well, the gag actually came from an interview in the UK where a minister didn't turn up, and they actually replaced that minister with a tub of lard. So actually the bag of flour's quite generous and kind. Another thing that I really love about this flour gag is that I'm sure you're aware that there's a Twitter account set up for EpsomFlour ` the bag of flour. And it has some zingers; I'm not gonna lie. Yeah! But what's great is that you actually engaged with it as well, and you had some pretty good rebuttals, I thought. But I thought my question would be ` who's better at social media, you or the bag of flour? Oh, I think the bag of flour beats virtually all of us, probably. Yep. Can I tell you that the bag of flour still sits in the bottom of my pantry cupboard as well? Probably a little bit rancid since the 2014 election, but... You never know when you might need a stand in. And that is all from us for now. If you didn't catch all of the show, you can watch now on ThreePlus1. Thanks for watching, and we will see you again next weekend. Copyright Able 2018