haere e te pipiwharauroa tute-tute o Te Whare Tapu. Huhi ki runga, huhi ki raro. Kua riro nei o koutou wairua ki runga ` ki Te Rangi, o koutou tinana ` ki Uenuku, haere e te pipiwharauroa tute-tute o Te Whare Tapu. Te Kuru-mata-rerehu o Kawa, o Rahiri, o Te Ti Waitangi ` ka ngaro nei, aue te mamae i a ahau e! Welcome to The Hui, Maori current affairs for all New Zealanders. E taro ake nei. We look at iwi turf wars over competing cross claims that's lead to a hikoi on Parliament. You're taking us into war! You're making us into criminals! The Crown can help to facilitate. The Crown can't participate. The Minister for Treaty Settlements fronts up. And it's the tattoo that has chins wagging. Our panel discusses whether Pakeha should wear moko kauae. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2018 Karahuihui mai. The Treaty Settlement Minister, Andrew Little, has been forewarned if he signs a settlement with the Pare Hauraki collective before allowing its neighbouring iwi to sort through the overlapping interests, he'll be taking them to war. The issue of overlapping claims has ramped up in recent times, with Tauranga Moana and a number of iwi marching on Parliament. They say the Crown's settlement process is creating new grievances and division among iwi. Joining me now to discuss this is the Minister for Treaty Settlements, Andrew Little. Tena koe. Tena koe, Mihi. So, I guess, the big question is will you sign the Pare Hauraki collective? Well, I had a deadline on Friday. I've said that I'll further defer signing the deed of settlement, because I've had communications from the kaumatua from both the Tauranga Moana iwi and from Hauraki iwi that they are in active discussions. The Hauraki iwi have a hui coming up on Wednesday the 30th of May, where they say they are confident they can sort out a protocol and a tikanga process to engage in. So, for me, the whole issue was there was a stand-off. Something had to happen. I gave notice that I intended to sign. Now there's a dialogue ` at least, the start of it is underway ` I am happy to hold off. But what I've said to both sides is that won't be indefinite. But while there is progress being made, then that's a good thing. And I want to give a bit of time to let that happen. So, it's either you understand and appreciate the tikanga process or you don't. So, you're willing to allow them to do the tikanga process for only a limited amount of time. I think, if you look at the total background to this issue, so there were actually agreements reached between Hauraki and Tauranga Moana iwi back in 2012, 2013. They had agreed. And including agreeing on redress for Hauraki iwi and the Te Puna-Katikati part of the Tauranga Moana rohe. Then that agreement was walked out of, if you like. And there's been a stand-off ever since. And there's been` Because it didn't suit a number of iwi within that collective and within those agreements. So, I mean, that should be fine that, you know, you might regress to an agreement at one stage, and then you reflect or things change a wee bit, and you go back, and you want something different. Sure, I guess, look, I'm not going to question that. What's happened has happened. Then there's the request for` And that was all done under the Crown mandate. Then there's the request for a tikanga process. There were efforts to get that underway. And I'm not blaming either side, but for whatever reason, that broke down. And there has been a stand-off ever since. And nobody has shown a willingness in the last 12 months or so to resume that dialogue. Do you think it's a good solution, given that there's been no movement for so long? Do you think this is the best solution? It's not fair on anybody for it just to be left as a stand-off. And I think the Crown is being derelict in its duty if it thinks it can just stand aside and say, 'Nothing to do with us. All your fault. All your problem. You go away and sort it.' And the Crown does nothing. You do have a little bit of a problem, cos if they have this tikanga process, and then at the end of it, Ngai Te Rangi and a couple of those other iwi from Hauraki decide, 'Yes, we've worked it out, and this is how the overlapping claim issue's going to go.' And then you might have a couple of others in that Hauraki collective that say, 'No, we want to go back to the L-A-W, not the L-O-R-E.' What are you going to do, then? But that hasn't happened until now. And that's, I think, the process that everybody has talked about and wanted to happen. And the Crown has stood aside and said, 'Yes, you make it happen.' But nothing has precipitated or prompted the parties to actually get on and do that. So, by me giving notice that I intend to sign has prompted a whole heap of dialogue that previously wasn't there. And it is interesting seeing the role that the kaumatua and kuia on each side are playing, which I think has been very constructive. And they have said to me directly, they wanted to see dialogue, they are confident they can work it out. Then, from my point of view, that's good. The Crown can't get involved in those iwi to iwi disputes, but it does have a responsibility under its protection mandate to make sure that one iwi or another is not disadvantaged as a result of the process. And that's, if you like, the responsibility that I'm discharging in trying to get a dialogue going. That's a difficult position for you, because when you're dealing with collectives that aren't actually an iwi, you are probably doing a disservice to iwi. Well, the iwi have come together as the collective. They've agreed on terms of negotiation. They've appointed their negotiators and given a mandate. The Crown has engaged with them on that basis. And, look, of course, things change, and sometimes personalities change, and people want something different, but in the end, there's got to be an end to the process. There has to be an agreement at some point. Does there? Does there have to be a time frame? Uh, well, I mean, the longer it goes, with some iwi fully settled and getting the benefits of their settlements, being able to deliver for their people, their uri, and others not, actually, I think the Crown is entitled to say, 'You know, it really helps us all that after 20 years of concerted effort, 'and the experiences that we've learned from those early stages, we start to bring the process 'so that every iwi gets a chance to get their Wai claims sorted out and addressed 'and to get settlements achieved.' Some would say that it's been 178 years of dishonouring the Treaty. And here you are putting a time frame on iwi to, you know, sort out their interests. You know, the most common korero I get as I get around iwi is from the kaumata and kuia. And they say, 'We have carried this. 'We've carried this burden of our issues and of our grievance for so long. 'And we wanted to see it settled. And too many of us are passing on, 'and we haven't been able to see the fruits of our labours and our work, our mahi.' And, in fact, I'm now getting that from some of the younger generation, who are saying, 'It's not fair that our kaumata and kuia who carried this and started the process 'and went to the Waitangi Tribunal, got findings in our favour, opened negotiations with the Crown, are not there to see the end of it.' And I think it is fair for those people who have done those hard yards that they get to see the fruits of their labour. So, Hauraki and Tauranga Moana are going to have their hui, however they do it. They are in charge of that. It's on their mana. And you're saying that, you know, you understand that's going to be at the end of the month. Then what happens? Well, then` You'll take whatever their recommendation is? Will it be binding? Yeah, it is for them to reach agreement. If they reach agreement` And you'll agree to that? The Crown` Yeah, the Crown's not` The Crown obviously wants to see the overlapping claims issue resolved. And however clumsy and blunt the Crown approach might be, in the end, we want see things resolved` Hypothetically, if nine of the Hauraki iwi are in agreement with the Tauranga and three aren't, would you go with the majority? I'm not going to pre-empt what Hauraki may agree as their tikanga, as their process` their side of the process with Tauranga Moana. That's for them to decide. Last question, because we are running out of time, in terms of the Waitangi Tribunal, do you think it has an end date? The Waitangi Tribunal? No, because I think it's not only there to do the historical findings, set up the basis for negotiations or to make recommendations, it is there, I think, to provide supervision of settlements already done to make sure that they are being fulfilled. And then, of course, there's the stuff now. What they call the 'contemporary claims' ` things that have happened not arising out of the oppression that Maori faced, but things that have happened in, kind of, modern day, latter day policy that is disadvantageous to Maori. They still have a role to provide oversight of those things and ensure that the Crown is holding to its bargain. Just quickly before we go, I want to ask you about a great broadcaster that we lost this week, Kingi Taurua. And I think you've had an interesting experience with him in the last little while. Well, Kingi, he turned up at the hui` one of the huis that I was having with Ngapuhi at the end of last year. And I've known Kingi for a while. You know, I've felt as if I had a very good friendship with him. Look, he is very fierce in his advocacy, and he'll excoriate the Crown on the paepae. And then you'll see him at the hariru afterwards, and he'll give me a big hug, and we'll ask after each other; I feel great aroha for him. He turned up at this hui, having just had some of his treatments, still with his surgical mask on, just having his latest round of chemo. And my first thing was, 'Kingi, what are you doing here? You know, look after yourself. 'Look after your health.' But he was determined to be there to give support. He is very determined to see the Ngapuhi negotiations get underway. And it gave me great support to have him there. We will miss him. Kia ora, tena koe ti minita. Hei muri i nga whakatairanga ` ko nga mangai mo Ngati Whatua raua ko Ngati Paoa hei wetewete i nga korero a te minita. Kia mau tonu mai ra. Hoki mai ano. Well, listening to that interview with Treaty Settlements Minister Andrew Little is Ngati Whatua Orakei Trust Deputy Chairman Ngarimu Blair and Kaiarahi for Ngati Paoa, Haydn Solomon. Both iwi are currently dealing with the issue of cross claims, and Ngati Whatua Orakei currently has a case before the Supreme Court after the Crown transferred land from within their rohe into Marutuahu's territory. Tena korua. BOTH: Kia ora. Well, you must be pleased. The Minister says he's not going to sign, that he's going to wait. Is that pleasing to you? Uh, yeah, we've heard it a number of times, though. We've had this minister and the previous one also threaten to sign things. And so we're always in this up-and-down phase. What we really need to do is for him to step back completely and allow the tikanga process to go. In our rohe and in Tauranga ` and it's the same tribes that are cross claiming into this huge part of the upper North Island ` and the tikanga process would be going back to the marae and laying your taki, laying your whakapapa, as to why that land should be transferred to you. And we are pretty confident that here in Auckland that if Marutuahu did that tikanga process, it would show that their claims are tenuous. They're only piggy-backing off Ngati Paoa to get into Auckland. And so that's the tikanga process we're looking for. If that doesn't happen, then we must have access to the courts. And so this previous government and this government, unfortunately, have been stopping` preventing us access to the courts so we could weigh the interests, test the interests, test the claims of people. If they won't be tested on the marae, then let us test them in the court. So, just for those who don't understand, I just want to point out that Ngati Whatua, who's currently in the Supreme Court challenging` is in the Supreme Court with Ngati Paoa, who's part of the collective. Sitting here next to Ngarimu Blair, are you in support of what he says or not? The short answer is yes. Absolutely. 110% in support. What we are in support of is the principle upon which the Supreme Court is considering its decision, and that is, 'Does tikanga apply? How does that apply?' And so, we stand side-by-side with Ngati Whatua Orakei in that sense. And for us, albeit whilst we are in the Marutuahu collective, we have made our position very clear when we withdrew from the appeal court. And we were in that position in the legal process, because we had two properties within central Auckland And we were able to resolve that between Ngati Whatua Orakei and Ngati Paoa, ourselves, on a tikanga basis. So the issue is that those properties were in their tribal rohe, and they have first right of refusal to purchase them if they come up. Is that the deal? That's correct. So we sat down and said, 'Look, we're in court together at the moment, 'but surely we can resolve this through a tikanga process.' So in November 2017, we did. What would that look like? Well, essentially, it looks like, uh` it looks no different to what we do on a regular basis as Maori, and that is a tikanga process as you go on to the marae, like you do for a powhiri. You get called on, you lay your taki ` what your kaupapa is ` and then we're able to resolve those issues in that forum, out in the open in front of everyone, so it's clear as to what your interests are, the extent of those interests and the nature of those interests. What I heard the minister say previously was he admitted that their own Crown process is blunt and clumsy. So I acknowledge the minister for admitting that, but what iwi are saying is we have a better process and a framework that our tipuna have already had, mai ano, for centuries. And that's, essentially, the process that Ngati Paoa and Ngati Whatua Orakei went together, a kanui ke te kanui, on the marae atea, where we were able to resolve those issues and come away with more of a sustainable outcome for our treaty settlements, respectively. And once you've come up with your recommendations, you've talked about whakapapa, and you're satisfied there, what would you like the minister to do then? Do you want them to be binding? Do you want the authority of the marae and that hui to be what happens? Uh, yeah, absolutely. The time has to be given for the process. As I say, lay the taki, what is your connection to the whenua, and everybody agree with it. We think once we're in front of our carvings in our meeting houses, once we're in front of our elders and our families, then that opens the doorways to people being honest about their claims. So what we're seeing under the Official Treaty Settlements Cross Claims policy in the last 10 years, and I think the minister has been let down by his officials. They're kind of running the show, in our view, carrying on with this policy where they're allowing tribes and, in particular, we're seeing it with the Hauraki tribes, who are claiming right into Tauranga Moana, they're undermining the Waikato River settlement as well ` a 23-year-old settlement ` the ink is still wet on our settlement, and it's being undermined by claiming right into our heartland, also into Ngati Manuhiri, in the north-east of Auckland, and also into Ngati Wae. So how is it that this one tribe, or a few people in that tribe, can have that expansive claim? So, we see there's a problem with the policy, and it's been taken advantage of by a few iwi. When Ngati Whatua settled, did you do that process in your settlement? I recall in the early days, we had a big hui at our marae. And, yeah, people came up from Hauraki and told us they owned everything and then drove back to Hauraki right after it. So we had that hui. We haven't had one like that with the Marutuahu collective. And I understand from Tauranga Moana, they've been trying to have hui, kanui ke te kanui. And it's been dodged. It's been aborted. So, I guess, is this the reason that Ngati Paoa has announced that they've pulled out? Well, not in support of the Maori tuahu stance, and you're going to go to Tauranga to have that hui. So, we have already had that hui. That was at the end of last year, where we've had a kaumata with Ngai Te Rangi and Ngati Ranginui. On your own? Without the collective` On our own. And the simple reason for that and the rationale for that ` and it's important to state this ` is that the interests don't lie with the collective, they lie with the iwi. It's the iwi who have the whakapapa; it's the iwi who have the interest. So these collectives are just vehicles, but they also create problems, because, unfortunately, there are some iwi within those collectives who are hiding behind that collective's skirt, that are causing problems. And so, essentially, just three iwi. And as Ngarimu pointed out, whether they're in Tauranga, Waikato, to the north of Ngati Wae and so forth, for ourselves and Ngati Paoa, our concern is people are coming up to us and saying, 'Look, we recognise Ngati Paoa in Tamaki. 'We know that you're here. But we don't recognise the other three.' Ka pai. We'll have to wait and see what happens at this big hui for overlapping claims. But before we go, I just want to talk to you. Yesterday ` 40 years since Takaparawhau. How did that go? How did it feel for you as a descendant? Yeah, I was only three at the time. My only memory is of Piggy Muldoon coming to have a hui with my great-grandfather. But yesterday was a very moving day. And to see Uncle Joe Hawke and all of the whanau who supported him and also the wider community ` Pacific Islanders, Pakeha, trade unionists, musicians and so on ` it was a hugely important day. And, again, these issues we've talked about, the fight goes on. And there's another generation that we're bringing up for these fights. Tena koe. Nga mihi nui kia korua. Kua pau te wai ki a tatou. Dealing with traditional tikanga in a modern-day world. Three wahine Maori join me to share their views on Pakeha wearing moko kauae. haere e te pipiwharauroa tute-tute o Te Whare Tapu. Auraki mai ano. Well, there's one kaupapa this week sent the internet into overdrive. It's the story of self-styled guru and motivational speaker Sally Anderson. Anderson is Pakeha, but married to a Maori. However, publicity pics of her moko kauae this week has many wahine calling on tamoko artists to stop gifting this taonga to Pakeha women. The tamoko artist says he turned Anderson away three times, but eventually relented after Anderson got the backing of her husband's whanau. So where should the line be drawn when it comes to wearing our kauae? To discuss, I'm joined now by veteran Maori broadcaster Peata Melbourne, Te Whare Wananga o Awanuiarangi Associate Professor Dr Mera Lee- Penehira and political commentator Carrie Stoddart-Smith. Tena koutou e aku tuakana. ALL: Tena koutou. Leonie Pihama says you don't have to speak Maori, you don't have to be a kuia, you don't even have to have this taonga gifted. It's your birthright. But it's a birthright for Maori, not Pakeha wahine. What do you make of that, Carrie? Um, I was actually really pleased to hear that, because for me growing up, I'd always thought that moko kauae were for` you know, you had to aspire to a level of mana to wear it and that you had to speak te reo. And when you don't have that kind of access growing up, and then you've got your own people telling you you need to have a certain level of Maoriness, it creates this other barrier to you even, kind of, ascending to your cultural identity. And so it was really, I think` it gave a lot of hope to a lot of women ` wahine Maori ` who aren't quite yet connected into their Maoriness right now. I'm really grateful for you coming on, Peata, cos I read your post this week, and you shared a different whakarau. Tell me why you think it's OK for Ms Anderson to wear that moko kauae? To wear a moko? I think it's OK for anyone. And the reason I think that is because, you know, I love being Maori. I actually thank my kaitiaki every day for being Maori. I love it. I think it's really cool. So I totally get it when somebody else wants to have a piece of that. Like, I get it. It's like, 'Yeah, fist pump.' But, I mean, the thing with her, though, is that her intentions are good, from what I understand. I don't know her full story, but she's got good intentions, and I think that's the difference. And from what I know, most people do have good intentions when they get, you know, the moko kauae. Yeah, it is a taonga. Absolutely, it is. But her getting it is not going to take that taonga away from me. So I think she can do what she wants. As the only wahine here who actually is wearing one, Mera, what do you make of that? Um, well, for us, it's actually about whakapapa, so it's not about whether she is` whether Sally Anderson or anybody else are worthy enough, whether they've got good intentions, because one can have good intentions this week, and next week things can change. Whakapapa never changes. And that's what moko kauae is about, that's what moko kauae represents. I think it's really also important to talk about the context today. And the context is that through the process of colonisation, our lands have been stolen, our language has been stolen, so much has been stolen from us. And this week, we've been asked day after day after day to share this taonga as well. Well, quite frankly, wahine Maori are saying, 'No, enough's enough. Sharesies are over. This is ours by whakapapa.' I'm just interested in, Peata, in your whakaro, cos I'm wondering how far you're willing to share taonga Maori? So, would you be OK and comfortable for a wahine Pakeha to karanga, for example, on your marae? Well, I won't even karanga on my marae, but my whakaro is that this waka has already sailed. And we can't control` you know, it's forward momentum, and this is how our world's evolving, and tikanga needs to evolve with that. And that's what happens with tikanga. But my point is that we can actually direct which way that waka's going to go. And that's where we need to come in and make sure that that's heard, because we have a responsibility to ensure that it's protected as best we can. But, you know, we're the ones who put it out there. We've put it all over social media. We've gone around the world. We've taken our tamoko artists to expos. We want to advertise our culture. So, um, I think` I disagree. I don't think we do want to advertise our culture` But we are advertising it. You're a walking advertisement. I'm not an advertisement. I'm a wahine Maori` But that's how people see it. It's not an advertisement. It's about walking with your whakapapa. And I think we need to be really cautious about how we` the kind of terminology that we use to describe ourselves and ourselves walking as wahine Maori. See, and I agree. And that's why we need to have that conversation more, because whether we like it or not, people are going to use it in whichever way they see fit. I don't necessarily want everyone to go and get a moko kauae. No, I'm not telling you to go and do that. I may not even agree or like it, but I can see that that's` What about a Maori wearing other people's moko, if you like? Quite a few people who have a Samoan partner or tamariki who are Tongan have incorporated that into their own tamoko. Do you agree with that? I guess, one of the things I have is that moko kauae ` I see it as something that's quite distinct from other forms of tamokos. You know, like, I know that a lot of my whanau who are not Maori have Maori tattoos and design work on their bodies. It's when you start talking about moko kauae belonging distinctly to Maori women. And it's a cultural practice that's been practiced for Maori women, you know, as of right, as people have said. And so, one of the things that I've been thinking about more broadly is we're not taking anything away from anyone when we're reclaiming that tamoko, because it was never theirs. And so I think that needs to be made clear that that seems to be an argument ` you know, you have to share it. Well, it was never yours. We don't have to share. And we're not taking anything away from you. And I also think, just going more broadly, there has become that commercial side of tamoko. And I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a Maori artist or a Samoan artist or whoever deriving a commercial benefit from their artwork. What's wrong is when it's someone who's not from that culture seeks to derive a commercial benefit from a cultural artefact that wasn't theirs in the first place. I want to come back to the discussion that you were having over there ` the advertisement of this kaupapa this week. And I want to ask Mira, I mean, I don't think it was particularly that Maori were advertising moko kauaue, I think what they were doing was sharing stories, which mostly mainstream media had been telling or sharing themselves. Where do you think th` It's been polarising. It's been one of the most watched and read stories. Where do you think that has come from? You know, why has mainstream picked up on it in your thoughts? Because I think, unfortunately, there's an underlying narrative of racism beneath this. I've never before experienced the level of racism that I have this week. The personal messages, the Facebook discussions that are accusing us as wahine Maori of denying Pakeha women access to our culture, of being a racist B, a F, a C-F ` everything has come out this week. So, I think, what's underlying this is racism. And I think it's also about, um,... unfortunately, many of our men folk haven't stood beside us. A few have, but many of them haven't. And I think what's involved in that is that there's a lack of recognition of the authority of wahine Maori to actually maintain the integrity of this. And we can maintain control of this. Kua pau te whariki a tata ara mai. I saw you. You wanted to jump in there. I'm dying to say something. We will pick it up again another time. Thank you so much for all coming on and sharing in such different whakaro. Kua hikina te hui mo tenei ra. Before we leave, we want to pay tribute to a much-loved friend, a broadcaster, warrior and rangatira, Kingi Taurua. Noreira e te taniwha hikuroa o te Tai Tokerau ` tenei matou te tangi apakura nei ki a koe, kia au te moe e Kara. # Roimata i maturuturu # i taku tirohanga ake # He manawa e hotu he nui no te aroha e # Captions by Elizabeth Welsh. www.able.co.nz Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2018 ALL: He mea tautoko na Te Mangai Paho. The Hui is made with support from New Zealand On Air.