He wahine, he whenua ka ngaro te tangata. Kei aku mareikura, kei aku whatukura rarau mai ki te whare korero o Te Hui. Ko Mihingarangi tenei e mihi atu nei, nau mai, tahuti mai ra. Welcome to The Hui, Maori current affairs for all New Zealanders. Copyright Able 2018 Me aro ki te ha o Hineahuone. Wahine are the bearers of life, the mauri of our marae and the kaitiaki of our tikanga. So how are the roles of wahine changing in contemporary Aotearoa and how do we adapt our tikanga to ensure they remain fit for purpose? I'm joined today by a panel of women, a panel of experts, and over the next half an hour we're going to explore all the kaupapa korero from the kauta ` karanga, whaikorero, feminism, moko kauae and much more. They are kaiako and kapa haka stalwart Ngahiriwa Tai Tin, broadcaster Peata Melbourne, and educators Whaea Evelyn Tobin and Rhonda Tibble. - Tena koutou katoa. - OTHERS: Tena koe. Earlier this year, the prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, spoke from the mahau at Waitangi. It raised a robust and a very timely debate about our role as wahine on the pae. Let's start with you, Peata. He o whakaaro? What did you think about the prime minister speaking from the mahau? Yeah, it is an interesting question because I think there are some iwi now around the motu that are starting to allow their wahine, in fact, train their wahine ` I believe that they're doing that in Kahungunu ` to speak on the pae. And every iwi and every area are adapting to what they need to adapt to cater for those. But that's more of a practical purpose, where they are losing their kaikorero to speak on the pae. When it comes to the prime minister doing it because of her status ` and I think then she was hapu ` it raises a lot of questions around why we allow that to happen in the first place. I see you nodding your head there, Ngahiriwa. O whakaaro? Um, ki au nei e pai ki atu ki te mahau. Ka wa o ki te turanga a Tumatauenga. Mm. No hu Maori tonu hea whakaae ana te iwi, ki te whakaae te mana whenua. Me to ratou tautoko katoa. Whakaae. Tautoko katoa. Whaea Rhonda, he kaiako koe ki te kura a kohei nei. Ko wai kei te whakamahana i te paepae ki to kura? Ko au. Ko koe? Ko au tonu. (SPEAKS MAORI) Mm. Whaea, I should have asked you the question in the first place, cos you are from Ngati Manu, so as a kaitiaki of Waitangi and things that go on there, was that something you were aware of before the prime minister spoke, and how did you feel when you saw that? No, I wasn't aware beforehand, but I agree totally that when the mana whenua have cleared that way, they also protect that situation. She was wrapped around with manaakitanga, both physical and spiritual. And she had a purpose; I think she delivered a message, and it was to all New Zealanders, we discovered. I think it also speaks to the adaptability of Maori to cope with the modern world, and it shifts and changes. Tikanga te korero he ao hurihuri. Mm. He reo te hurihuri, he tikanga hurihuri. (SPEAKS MAORI) Mm. Peata, do you reckon Maori women have a role to ensure tikanga for all women? Oh! (CHUCKLES) Oh, that's a big question. You know, say, for example, you were working in a work environment where there were Pakeha and other wahine there, do you take on the role as a wahine Maori to ensure that the tikanga at that place is...? Yeah, well, I can talk from what I do within my workplace, and I do take on that role of guiding people and giving my 10 cents. But that's only when there is no one else there to do that. So usually I'll look to someone who has the authority to do that, and then usually leave it to them to make that call. But as far as guiding people when there's no one else around, absolutely, yeah. Have you got an example? Can you think of a time when you've had to step up and think, 'OK, shivers, 'I need to step in here'? Well... And where does it come from? Is it a whakaaro, a feeling? It's a... It's a way to protect, I think, our people. We've just recently had examples where we've had pohiri or whakatau going on in our building, and people are casually walking past where we're holding that ceremony. And unbeknown to them; they're not aware that that's an area where we're holding the special ceremony, so they walk past kind of casually. So we've had to put things in place where we go, 'Hey, that's actually not OK. 'What you have to do is find another way to go around that.' So it's moments like that when I speak up, mostly because no one else speaks up and I'm happy to speak up about those things. But we're all thinking it. We're thinking, 'Geez, that doesn't look right, it doesn't feel right,' so you say something. Rhonda, I think I've read something where you've said in the past that you talked about the responsibility to protect the prime minister when she was hapu. Can you tell me where that comes from? It comes from the space that all of our roles in relation to our rituals of welcome require all sides, the manuhiri and the tangata whenua, to be aware of the duty and obligation of protection for all sides. If our practice is safe, then everybody's safe. And that's the major consideration. There's a whakatauki that we were talking about earlier ` takahi nga tikanga, kia ora ai nga tikanga. Have you had an example of that in your time? Several, actually. Several? Can you share any with us? (LAUGHTER) Um, so, I'm just trying to think which are the best ones to use for this time. Um, fascinatingly, I've had the opportunity to speak at a wairua conference. And that wasn't that the space was given to me, but I was loath to allow a Pakeha woman to have mana wahine rights before me as an indigenous woman on our own whenua. So I took that space after the proper rituals of pohiri for the mana whenua, cos the space was being offered after that. However, when I took it, it became quite controversial. But I took it because I understood what the closing ceremony for the previous wananga was, and what the mauri was left there to join it to the mauri of this space. So that was interesting. Another example has been a time where I arrived at a kura kaupapa to bring my daughter to this new school. Actually an Auckland kura kaupapa. And at that particular time, a young girl was going to do the karanga for the ropu, so her mother was fluffing to make that happen. So I walked up to the young girl and I said, 'Tena koe, tamahine. Mahau te reo karanga i te wa te mo matou.' 'Ooh, ooh, ooh, you do it.' Right? So that was fascinating. And then the first time I'd actually seen a man do a waere in front of a karanga, cos I'm not accustomed to that ` without disrespect to that; it was just new to me. So he did his waere in front of me, and I wanted till he proceeded to be ended with that aspect, and then I took the karanga. Mm. So what was controversial about that was when we sat down, the paepae tane was there at this particular kura, and young men got up to proceed to speak from paper. I was not having that. Ka pai. So I stood up after the third one and said, 'We will show an example of what should be done here. 'If the men on this side can't do that and meet that requirement, then I will take that right by force.' And I did. Ka pai. Whaea Rhonda mentioned something there, that when she did get to stand at the wairua conference, the spiritual conference, that some people were taken back by her stance there. As an educator, you must come across Pakeha wahine feeling a little bit displaced or out of place. How do you deal with that? Where does that come from? Yeah. For me, it goes to the fundamental principle of the Treaty, and in particular case of the partnership. All too often, non-Maori are willing to copy and practice and imitate. In other words, they're actually taking. It's an act of theft. Mm. And so because it is, in fact, a tikanga Maori in the context of whatever the occasion or the time or the place, it is natural that Maori consultation occurs. And too often, when that doesn't happen, then there are true issues. I've also seen the complete reverse, where absolute partnership has been practised between both parties, and in the end ` to echo your words ` everyone is kept safe. Ataahua. We'll come back and talk about some of that shortly. Noho tonu mai ka haere tonu nga korero. Hei muri i nga whakatairanga ka uia te urupounamu kei a wai te mana ki te karanga. Ko te karanga te mauri o te mana wahine. The karanga is the ultimate expression of the power of women ` a ceremonial practice that connects the spiritual realm to that of the living. The karanga is the first thing to be heard during a powhiri or any special Maori occasion. But who gets to say who can and who can't karanga? Should wahine Pakeha be allowed to karanga? And who decides if our transgender wahine can? Kia tahuri ake tatou ki te pae korero. Let's come to you first, Ngahiriwa, because you do perform karanga. Tell us about how you made the decision to do that. Kia ora. (SPEAKS MAORI) I was 15, just moved to Tamaki from Heretaunga. And we went to a tangi for a pepe, one of the pepe of our kapa haka, Kerehana. And he gave me the kupu. Gave me the kupu, did a bit of a practise in his ear, and then we went on. Um... And from there, I've been fortunate to witness some beautiful and strong women in my life, uh, and continue to share and guide other women, kuia included, to ensure that they feel safe when they go on to marae. And is it something that you feel really privileged to do? Definitely privileged. When I first did the karanga, I thought about my kuia straight away, wondering what she could be thinking, how she would feel. But as the matamua of the mokopuna, I knew she was there supporting me a wairua. When I went home and had the conversation with her, she was dumbfounded to know that those are the types of things that happen in Tamaki. (CHUCKLES) But having witnessed her eldest daughter, my mum, living in the city and being unfortunate enough to not have these types of taonga given to her, I had her tautoko. Ka pai. Whaea Evelyn, kei a wai te mana ki te karanga? Uh... (CHUCKLES) Kei te wa. Kei te wahi hoki nga tohutohu nui. Um, engari, ki au nei ko te ahua tano o te karanga ki te iwi Maori, ki te wahine Maori. He ahua taonga tuku iho. Mo te taha o tenei patai, ka pehea ma te Pakeha e karanga. So for me, karanga and the potential to karanga comes from within the culture itself. Certainly, at this stage in my life I truly believe that without a strong foundation of te reo, one is not able to weave the words that express one's heart in terms of uplifting the time and the place. Mm. And so all those things come to play. It is a journey of learning, it is a journey of progress, but ultimately it is a role that enables the full ritual of marae and encounter to reach the heights of its potential. Pehea koe, Rhonda? Is that something that you agree with? Absolutely. I think what we need to be mindful in terms of the artistry of a kaikaranga is that novices and experts are not the same thing,... Kia ora. ...and there's this whole space in between. And as it happens with our paepae, so it happens when we meet as kaikaranga ` the natural ascendency of who's alpha comes forward in this space, regardless of what environment we're in. So for the kotiro at your kura, how do you bring them, as an educational place in the first place that's about learning, do you allow them or teach them? How does it work there? One of the fortunate things for me at Auckland Girls' Grammar and the whare there is it's not deemed a marae, it's a whare wananga. And that's a designation of those prior to my time who saw fit to give them a whare. So I show the girls that it's unlike a marae whare because it doesn't have a door that sits away, allowing to have both sides. So look at the physical construction and what we've actually got here. So I can do what I like in that space because I'm not bound by the rituals of tapu in the way that a marae atea is, and I'm not transcending anybody else's rituals in terms of mana whenua when I allow the girls to simulate in that space. We have to understand that repetition is the mother of all skill, so without the opportunity to repetitively do karanga, we can't develop our practice. Kia ora. We've heard different area have different tikanga in terms of karanga. Pehea koutou o Tuhoe? And I know that you're the baby of the family and so many different lines, so how do you` You turn up to a hui and there's no one there, and you're a beautiful reo speaker, and everyone's like, 'Hey, Peata!' What happens then? I run to the back, (LAUGHS) is what I've done in the past. And like you said, in my own whanau setting, it's most unlikely that I will ever do the karanga. I've got... You'll be about 90. LAUGHS: Yeah, probably. I follow my elders, and that's their space right now, so I don't even go there. But in situations where it's only me or one other who are capable of doing a karanga, I have actually pulled myself out of that role, and even not done the karanga at all and chosen to just go on. Just because, like she said, there are novices and experts. I'm a novice; I've never done it before, and I've chosen not to. And I never will until I'm invited by one of my elders to take up that space. How do we feel about transgender wahine performing karanga? Um, I personally wouldn't call it a karanga, I'd call it a waere. Cos that, as far as I've learnt from Ngati Hine, that's a man's role. And I know a hine nga rohe wahine ratou, engari a tikanga nei hea tane tonu. (SPEAKS MAORI) Engari he waere ki a au. Pehea korua? Tautoko. Tautoko. Na te mea koro mo aku ake. Engari ano, I've also seen where the marae, the whanau, do a wraparound manaaki so that that situation never occurs. I think it's when people are forced into a situation where, if not for me, there is the potential for takahi, for breaking of tradition. Obviously, if wananga, if deep, shared talking and agreement can occur beforehand, then that can prevent the situation. But... te ora mo kupu. You've all recently returned from the kapa haka nationals in Papaioea, so I wondered if you had any whakaaro around our transgender whanau performing in different gender roles on the stage. Has that been anything that you've been part of or witnessed, and how do you feel about it? Not at this competition in particular, but in years gone by. I was overwhelmed and learnt many skills from a wahine in particular called Koro tona ingoa in Te Rautahi. Tena koe. Most beautiful performer. More feminine than half the women. Very skilled with poi. Very skilled also with the mere. So, um, I totally support it. Do you think our tane Maori would one day allow a transgender male to lead their haka? (SPEAKS MAORI, LAUGHS) Peata? I believe that's already happening, as far as I know, at high school level. They have a young transgender who's at least joined the ranks of the haka. I don't know if he's leading it yet, but they've allowed that to happen in their own space. Ka pai. I mean, I went to the Tuhoe Ahurei this year, and in the line-up with the women, there stood a man with all the wahine, doing his thing. And, I mean, I found it quite fascinating watching him. And he's had conversations, as I understand, with his whanau, cos he also wants to do the karanga on his marae. They've said, 'No, not at this stage,' but like Ngahiriwa said, if he ever did, I would call it a waere, not a karanga. Ka pai. We will have to come back after the break for more of this. Is feminism for Pakeha? We'll find out soon. Ko Mihingarangi tenei e mihi atu nei, nau mai, tahuti mai ra. Auraki mai ano. This year New Zealand celebrated 125 years since women won the right to vote. But how far have we really come as Maori women, and are we feminists? Is this milestone reflective of our achievements as Maori women in 2018? Whose your iwi leader? Is he a he, and are Maori women being elevated and promoted to the big roles? We'll ask our panel. Are we feminists? No. No? Doesn't sit well with you, that title? No, it doesn't sit well with me, that title, because I don't feel oppressed by my brothers. And my role with my brothers is complementary and added value, and I need them to be the contrast of me. Kia ora. What would be the equivalent of being a feminist? Is it a mana wahine? I think the fact that it ends with 'ist'... (LAUGHTER) ...in a nutshell summarises the cultural... Yeah, it just doesn't fit. Um, I know earlier we were sharing our thoughts, and the whole notion of mana Maori stands on its own. Mana wahine is one expression of that. Na reira, ko taku tu he tu wahine, he tu Maori tonu. Mm. And I think, too, that because it is a 'ist' word, it comes with a ready-made package, translated and interpreted by another culture. Mm. Doesn't work. In 2018, then, Ngahiriwa, are we sharing the balance of power in te ao Maori? Are we fulfilling those top roles? In te ao Maori? Ae. In te ao whanui, e kao. On our marae, ae, tautoko katoa. Ki te kore te tane ka kore te wahine rawa rawa. No reira kei te oranga marae engari mo te au whanau nei. Kei te hi nga tatou. I guess that's the issue when we have te ao Maori and then we kind of transition over into te ao Pakeha, te ao whanui as you say, in terms of we need to have CEOs and chief executives of these big Maori corporations and public boards and the rest of it. Do you feel Maori women are being represented fairly? I think it could be better. But I don't think it's because they've been chosen based on their gender at all. I think it's just, if we look at te ao Maori, and everything from there is well balanced anyway ` there's Rangi and Papa; there's no just Rangi. You know what I mean? And I think we're inclined to follow that naturally. I think it's just been pointed out in a more Western point of view that this is what's going on. And I'm not saying that it's not going on, I'm just saying that I think we have values that we pull from when it comes to making decisions like that. I guess the question, then, is if that's the whakaaro, the reality is that Maori women will be paid less than Maori men in the roles that we` financially, so how do we combat that? How do we make that change? I think one of the things to recognised in the dichotomy of our own biculturalism, that happens in the world generally; it's ruled by patriarchy, so let's get clear about that. So that being the case, then for us as Maori women, we take a back seat to Pakeha women, to Pakeha men, and then Maori men in the concept of our colonised minds. So we have to remember whose mindset are we applying to the situation we're speaking to. So in regard to the jobs of higher pay for us as Maori women, until the whole structure considers a new system, then we'll always get the same result. I think it's also reflected in the rise of small businesses, where a woman actually chooses her own pathway, creates her own commercial enterprise. Her own rangatiratanga. She can create` reconstruct that. I really wanna support the notion of ao Maori/ao whanui. The ao whanui in which we live in New Zealand society is a construct anyway. The decision is not in our hands. Kia ora. Neither is the conversation. I think that's where the real issue lies. One of the other things we're always encouraged to do is do better with our health, and as we all know, we don't feature that well in successful health statistics. So as Maori women, what are our roles in terms of teaching and informing our tamariki and your tauira and your tauira? What have we gotta do? (SPEAKS MAORI) (LAUGHTER) (CONTINUES SPEAKING MAORI) Kei te korero koe mo Smear Your Mea nei. Ae. And you raised a really interesting point for our tane, cos I was unaware of that. Tell me what they have to do. So during that kaupapa, we were told that our tane had to go and get their throats swabbed to ensure that they checked their prostate. And then Whaea Rhonda mentioned the kaupapa that I'd like you to talk more on. Oh, just because we were on that space of understanding 'why would it be throat?' So I lend a proposition that it might be on to some part of the curse that Hine-nui-te-po put upon Tane as a result of the transition to Hine-nui-to-po, ka pono whakahoro kai, the Adam's apple. That also leads further to the situation of men doing karanga. The physiology of the Adam's apple means they can't reach the notes necessary to open a particular space. That only belongs to women. Peata, you've just come off the water, so you're doing all right in the mahi whakapakari tinana. (LAUGHTER) But I guess what do you tell your daughter in terms of her health? And did you hear those messages growing up about being healthy and looking after your tinana and checking everything? Well, I mimicked what I saw from my family, so that's what I expect my daughter to do. So I can only lead by physically doing. I'm not going to tell her to do it if I'm not doing it myself. And it's worked. I go to waka ama. She had a go at it once; now she's hooked too. And kapa haka, same thing. Anything that I do, she mimics me, because that's what I did growing up. We just have to be good leaders, role models. That's one way. Ko pau te wa ki a tatou. Thank you so much for coming on this morning. It's been a great discussion. We should do more of this. Please. Hei whakakapi i ta tatou hotaka i tenei ra. He kitenga kanohi, he hokinga mahara. Before we leave, we want to pay tribute to a very special lady, our friend Talei Roimata Morrison. Talei passed away last month after a ferocious battle against cervical cancer. Before she passed away, Talei made sure she saved the lives of others, spearheading the Smear Your Mea campaign that's seen wahine Maori turning up in droves to have their cervical smear tests. Today we salute our sister Talei and urge you all to honour her by smearing your mea. No reira e te mareikura tenei matou e tangi tonu ana e murimuri aroha ana moou, okioki mai. Kua hikina Te Hui. Pai marire ki a tatou katoa. (EMOTIVE PIANO RENDITION OF 'POKAREKARE ANA') (ACOUSTIC GUITAR JOINS IN) (MUSIC ENDS) ALL: He mea tautoko na Te Mangai Paho.